Bulwark Takes - No Kings Could Be the Biggest Protest EVER (w/ Ezra Levin)

Episode Date: March 26, 2026

Tim Miller talks with Ezra Levin—co-founder of Indivisible— about Saturday's “No Kings” protests. They get into whether protests actually work, how movements grow beyond a single weekend, and why discipline, nonviolence, and even humor can throw off an authoritarian playbook. Plus: the rising threat of political violence, how organizers are preparing for it, and what comes next if this keeps growing.Text TAKES to 64000 to get a FREE pocket pivot and their 10-pattern sprayer with the purchase of ANY size Copper Head hose. Message and data rates may apply.

The Bell Air Direct app includes crash assist, which detects an accident the moment it happens, and even offers you emergency assistance at the tap of a button. Okay, but what if I don't have an accident? Well, just keep on, keeping on. Bell Air Direct, insurance, simplified. Conditions apply. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the bulwark.

I'm delighted to welcome back. Co-founder of Indivisible, the organization behind the No Kings protests. It's Ezra 11. It's just you and me this time. Where's your wife? Sadly, you drew the short end of the stick. I don't know why I'm here. probably doing some other interviews with other people downstairs. It's nonstop right now, Tim.

That's good. Give me up to speed. What's happening? What's the latest? The protests are coming up on Saturday. What do people need to know? Oh, it's incredible. Look, we have the largest protest in American history coming up this Saturday. I know that sounds like bluster because I told you that before, but it proved to be the case last time I told you that. We had the largest protest in history for June's No Kings 1 last year. That was 5 million people at 2100. protests, then we had the largest protests in American history again in October of last year with No Kings 2, 2,700 protests around the world with 7 million people. Look, right now, we've got two days left to register your No King's protest, and already there

are more than 3,100 protests on the map. So we're talking to the Guinness Book of World Records. It's going to be big. It's going to be powerful. It's going to be joyful. It's going to be boisterous. And people should get out there. And if there's not a No King's protest within 30 minutes of where you live, go start your own.

You've got a couple days to pull it together. How do you do those headcounts, seven million? It is complex, and it's not just us. So there is a whole, it's art, it's science. Erica Chenoweth is an academic and an authoritarian expert who does some tracking of protest count size. We've also good G. Eliot Morris, who has his own methodology. We do a lot of work with the host to try to get in early numbers to do our best estimate. Look, I think the main thing that we're trying to get to is three and a half percent of the population again.

That's what they can see the authoritarian experts say. That's what you need in terms of active numbers of the citizens engaged, pushing back against the authoritarian. In the U.S. context, that's 11 or 12 million. We're making progress. We're not there yet, Tim. That's why we need everybody to be recruiting their friends and families out. I imagine you, like, in a war room somewhere, and it's like, we just heard from Poughkeepsie,

180 in Poughkeepsie. That's exactly what it's like, Tim. Can I tell you that? It is like, hey, we just got them to fill in the numbers. Well, this is how it compares the last time. Okay, and then the whole spreadsheet, an enormous spreadsheet, is filling up with input from across the country. That's how we try to get the best sense of where it is. But it's an inexact science.

It really is. As you can imagine with 3,100 events, you're not going to get every, nobody's taking attendance at these events. There's not somebody signing you in everywhere. I'm sure you get this question everywhere. So I'll just pass that to you. I was in Austin last week. My hometown. Yeah, exactly.

And I had to develop some Q&A among some really nice, weird Austin people. that wanted, yeah, that we're going to go to the No Kings rally on Saturday. But the question they asked me was like, okay, I'm going because I feel like I want to do something, you know, but I don't really know if this is doing anything. And is there something else I can do after because I'm just so mad. And it's nice to feel good and to be around people in the community. And that's a good start. That's not nothing. But I want to do more.

What do you tell people that ask you that question? Look, I think people should be hard on our tactics. Absolutely. The way I think about No Kings is that it is a tactic among many tactics that feeds into an overall strategy and that strategy is organized, nonviolent massive people power. And that strategy is designed to achieve a goal, which is preventing the fascist from consolidating power permanently. If the only thing you're ever doing is showing up on a Saturday protest, regardless of how historic and size it is, you're not going to save democracy. I mean, that's pretty clear to all of us. So what can a one-day protest? like this do. One sends a very clear message that the guy who wants to appear all-powerful, which is why he's launching wars and trying to crush American cities with the Gestapo force, that the message you sends is he isn't all-powerful. He's actually a weak, lame duck, authoritarian president who's on the way out. And democracy is reassuring itself and the way we know that is that there are 3,100 events in every nook and cranny of the country. Sydney message is nice, but it's not the only goal. That's a one-day messaging victory.

the reason why we're not storming into New York or San Francisco or Chicago and DC, just the big city centers and only to end there, is because of the second big thing that we can accomplish is recruiting people all over the country to be part of more meaningful, deep organizing on the ground. Because you see it, I see it, this guy is planning to sabotage the midterm elections. That is where we're headed this year. And if you're going to push back effectively against an authoritarian that's going to do that, a one-day protest can pull people in, But then what you need to do is something akin to what we saw in the Twin Cities or in Chicago or in LA, a level of depth of your organizing that goes beyond a Saturday and actually forces some economic pain onto a society that might otherwise just to accept the authoritarian subverting our elections come November. But economic pain, you mean what, like boycotts, that sort of thing? Boycotts, no schools, no work. How did the neighbors in the Twin Cities link arms and effectively repel the attacks from the White House?

They did it, yes, with protests. That was useful for bringing people along. We had 1,300 protests after Renee Good was murdered. That's good. Raise the alarms, gets more people engaged. But they did it by showing up day and day out. They did it by having clergy out in the streets, by shutting down businesses, by refusing to go to schools, by teachers not going and teaching kids. They did it by actually forcing a societal impact that successfully, I believe, repelled much of what the regime was trying to do in that city.

When they tried to steal the national elections, I think we're going to have to see. that kind of organizing and happening all over the country, but we can't wait until November to do that. So if people want to do more and they've been to protest before, what I would recommend them to do is not only go to that protest, text three people who have never been to a protest before, who aren't protest types, aren't activist types, and say, hey, I have a gift to give you. It's an invitation to this incredible party that is powerful and historic and fun and community building, and you should be part of it. That's something everybody can do over the next few days. Look, I went to No Kings 1.

I just have two thoughts thinking back with that, back in New Orleans. This wasn't my fault about No Kings 2. I had long planned a cross-country flight of the day of No Kings 2, and I was kind of annoyed at you, actually, that you planned it on that day. It was an immovable flight. I was with you in Spira. But I was there for the first one. It was Spirit Airlines?

Yeah, that was not on Spirit Airlines, but I was with you in Spirit. This episode is brought to you by Pocket Hose, the world's number one, expandable hose. Old-fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot. but the copperheads pocket pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with ease all around your home. When you're done, the rustproof anti-burst hose shrinks back down to pocket size for effortless handling and tidy storage. Trust me, I use pocket hose all the time, never have a hose break, reach those tough to reach flowers out there in the yard. It is great. After trying pocket hose, I'm never going back. The hose is so lightweight and durable. Water in the yard

is an easy, easy, easy task. More importantly, it's a dream. For a limited time, our listeners can get a free pocket pivot and their 10 pattern spare with the purchase of any size copperhead hose. Just takes to 64,000. That's takes, T-A-K-E-S to 64,000

for your two free gifts with purchase. Takes to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. I live in New Orleans, obviously, very diverse city. and you're getting a lot of like the NPR crowd there. And I really do not mean that as a pejorative.

Like there's everybody matters and pushing back on the authoritarian regime. And the fact that, you know, there is more whatever middle class, Gen X, boomer types who have the time and interest and care and passion to go out there. Like, that's awesome. But I was hearing that from the people there that it's like, how do we engage younger people? How do we engage more different types of demographics? How have you guys thought about that?

Look, I think there's no secret sauce here other than doing the work and doing the outreach. I was out in Selma two or three weekends ago for the 60th anniversary of the Selma Crossing Bloody Sunday. John Lewis is on my wall back there. And we were meeting with the organizers of the Selma Jubilee and the person who founded the Selma Jubilee, Fire Rose, she came up and introduced herself and she had written a song to recruit for no kings and sang it with the whole crowd. And yet that is lovely. That is great. And also, you don't build connections with communities unless you go out to the communities.

If you make an actual effort, say, no, this is for you too. At the same time, we should recognize that a lot of communities are under intense threats right now, that many people in this moment are facing extraordinary risk to just show up, to even go to the airports, as we are seeing right now. And for those of us who have a little bit more privilege and don't face the exact same level of risk, I think all the more responsibility on us to show up and defend the First Amendment rights for everybody else. So I'm proud of who showed up. It doesn't mean that we've got enough and doesn't mean we don't have to do outreach.

We're trying to do more and more of that outreach. And if we're successful, the numbers will grow. We'll see. The other thing that struck me, thinking back to No Kings, the first one, was, like, as I was going, I was getting news of what happened to Melissa Hortman and political violence targeting her in Minneapolis. And, you know, thinking about that, how we would cover that at the Bullwark, how to, you know, support the protests and also, you know, cover this, you know, horrible political violence. And I'm just wondering, like, how you guys process that. And it had to, like, really bring to the forefront just your thinking around security and, and everything related to that.

Well, look, it's horrific. We're living under an authoritarian regime that uses political violence for a purpose, which is. is to try to quell any dissent and try to disincentivize folks from exercising their First Amendment rights. I will say the response I've seen to political violence is the most inspiring thing that I've ever seen. And specifically in Minnesota, in response to Melissa Hortman's murder, the local organizers of No Kings that day demanded, demanded that the protests go forward, despite our security concerns. And we were worried that maybe something you would have and people wouldn't feel comfortable.

No, they wanted to show up. Two days after Alex Pruddy was murdered by Border Patrol, you could imagine people around the country would be like, oh, we can't show up. This is bad, but I'm scared. We've got to protect ourselves. We train 200,000 people on an eyes-on-eye train to basically learn how to do what Alex Pruddy and Renee Good were doing when they were murdered. I think this regime wants people to be scared. And the main response that I see from normal everyday people in response to these threats is, okay, what do I got to do? How can I show up? So headed in the to No Kings 3. We're taking it seriously. Every single No King's protest has a safety lead, a safety plan that got to go through hours of safety training. And also, this isn't our first rodeo, Tim. This is our third rodeo, at least, for No Kings. And they've been the largest protest in history and basically without incident. The folks who are organizing this, the folks who are showing up are showing up boisterously, joyfully, and nonviolently. And the proof is in the pudding there. Have you noted in the lead up to No Kings 2, they were

the Republicans were all about how we were violent Marxists. We were atifa. Yeah, we were radicals. They call that the damn national guard in some states. It was ridiculous. But I challenge you, find one elected Republican in the last couple of months who has even said the words no kings. I don't think they're doing it. And I think they know that when they talk about this, it invites more coverage and more people come out and they look weaker.

And so they are systematically looking to just have the whole country ignore that this largest protest in history is happening. That's such a great point. And what a shout out to all the people there. And it is, in some ways, I kind of, I'm hoping the woman that asked me that question in Austin is listening to this because I feel like I wish I had answered that question differently because I offered her practical other things she could do. You know, I said, there's nothing wrong with feeling good about going out to No Kings and being with your friends and being in solidarity.

And here's a few other ideas. But it is really more valuable than that. Like showing up is not just about community. It's demonstrating, you know, resistance. demonstrating the ability of peaceful nonviolent resistance and and modeling that, right, for people. Because, like, they wanted, they wanted the protest to be violent. Like, they called them violent, not because they thought that violence would be bad. They were calling you guys violent and trying to, because they were trying to instigate violence.

Like, that's what they wanted. It's like name calling on a school yard, right? Like, trying to get the person to punch back and then go tell them the teacher. You know, like, that's what. they were trying to do. And the fact that that didn't work is really, is really inspiring. And it is quite a sea change in their messaging difference between the last two. Look, I'm really, I'm honestly inspired by these are not professional politicos, despite with the whack jobs on the right say that nobody's receiving some big check from Soros in order to show up at these protests in Austin or anywhere

else. These are people who feel strongly about democracy and their country and their community and they're showing up to do something good in this moment. And I was, talking to an anti-authoritarian expert in Eastern Europe, and he said something that's really stuck with me since about authoritarian. He said, As read, they don't understand mirth. They don't understand mirth. And that is, I think that's real. I think we, we should, we should realize how important mirth and joy and community is in this moment. They want you to be scared. They love to be feared. They love you to be afraid. They hate that you're showing up in a unicorn costume. They hate your funny signs. They hate the fact that you're dancing and laughing and building community because that's

a real threat to them. They want you to be alone. So look, is a Saturday protest where we all get together and fuel mirth? Is that it? Is that the endgame? No, but it's not nothing. It's something important and we can build from that. I love mirth. I try to do a lot of mirth because it is painful. Last thing, we're talking about this little bit in the green room. I'm just curious your take. So these negotiations, conversations are going on about the DHS shutdown. for anybody who listens to this knows i was of the view of the democrats won the first shutdown and like that the eventual back down was the right move strategically and i think that that has kind of borne itself out as trump has continued to lose political power and the democrats have

continued to kind of find their spine a little bit over the past six months we're now at that question again right where the question is really more about trump right like the democrats and some republicans have offered you know basically a funding of dhs with a out, including ICE, and then, like, you separate ICE into a different package. Trump seems to be not wanting to do that or maybe just having a temper tantrum about it and then he'll do it eventually. I don't know. We'll see.

What is your take just from kind of like an activist perspective on what you think people want to see from Democrats in Congress on this debate? Let's keep in mind the context. So why are we in a shutdown right now? We're in a shutdown right now, not just because ICE murdered Renee Good, but because Border Patrol murdered Alex Freddie. And it was actually Border Patrol's murder of Alex Pretti, then the propaganda that came from the White House and the public backlash to that propaganda that shifted things midway through the legislative process. The week before, a couple days before Pretti's murder, Hakeem Jeffries was out there saying, look, the Democrats aren't going to unify on this because we're not a cult.

So it'll probably just sail through. Then Alex Pretti is murdered. That changes the political realities on the ground. The Senate Democrats unify. than to fight back against this with popular support. So here's what I would say. Any deal that doesn't move ICE forward, but does move border patrol forward without any new restrictions or any new reforms,

it's nonsensical. Why did you get into this fight to begin with then? You're leaving Alex Prettie's murderers on the streets and folks like them on the streets terrorizing American communities. I don't know who that's going to satisfy. Certainly not the people shown up, but no Kings on Saturday. Interesting. All right, anything I missed?

Anything you want people to know? Where do they go sign up? You can go to Knowkings.org. Find your protest on the map or get to plan your own. Get three friends out there, make this the biggest protest in history, and then do more. Next time, can I have your wife? Can we have Leah on the show for a name before No Kings 4? Because she was just a delight.

I agree. If I had my preference, that's all. I've got my preference. I appreciate your brother. Stay in touch. How honest we can do anything. Appreciate all the work you've been doing. It's really impressive. I got you, Tim. Thanks. All right, everybody. Subscribe to the feed. We'll see you later.