Bulwark Takes - No Kings Organizer: Mike Johnson Was Our Best Organizer! (w/ Ezra Levin)

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Sam Stein and Lauren Egan talk with Indivisible co-founder Ezra Levin about the massive No Kings 2 protests—more than 7 million Americans in over 2,700 cities—and how Mike Johnson accidentally helped make it happen. Ezra explains what’s driving the movement, why it’s spreading to red America, and what comes next for the fight against Trump’s authoritarianism.

Hey, everybody. It's me, Sam Stein, managing Edward DeBulloch. I'm here with Lauren Egan, who is the offer of the opposition newsletter. But more importantly, sorry, Lauren. It's Ezra 11, who is the co-founder of Indivisible, helped organize a not insignificant number of rallies over the weekend. Ezra, are you okay? Are you holding up? How was the weekend for you? I think that's what the New York Times is calling it. Not insignificant. In total, in total, we had what? Seven million people at No King's Rallies and how many different locations? Was 2,700? More than 7 million, more than 2,700 officially scheduled events. My mom went to one that wasn't even on the map, so I know a lot of other people did, too. This was, without any caveats, the largest peaceful protest in American history. Wow. What was the number two? Was that the first rally, or was there, like?

The first one, it ties with some that we've seen in the past. It's really been a trend, though. You're pointing to a trend here. So in April for hands-off, we had 3 million people at 1,300 events. On No Kings 1 in June, we had 5 million people at 2,100 events. This Saturday, we had more than 7 million people at more than 2,700 events. So 3,000, 5,000, 7 million. The trend is good, Sam. The trend is good. Well, let me ask you then.

I'll click it to Lauren to ask you a bunch of questions. But what do you think, what do you count for the trend? Obviously, more time with Trump, more people concerned. But as you look at the successes of this last. weekend, how do you account for the fact that more people are turning out? What are the main motivating factors in your estimation? I think a couple things. One is Trump is unpopular. He is invading in occupying American cities. He's terrorizing American communities for the secret police force. He's not doing anything for those who voted for him to lower the price of bread and

eggs instead he's building a golden ballroom. I mean, this guy is one of the least popular political figures in modern American history and his numbers are going down. He's alienating members of his own coalition and he's trying to protect strength. He's doing these deeply un-American things trying to protect strength. And our message was, this guy isn't strong. This guy's a lame duck unpopular president on the way out. We just got to show up. I think the first No Kings took some people by surprise. They were surprised of that many people came around. And a lot of people who saw the pictures from No Kings 1, who saw the videos, who saw how big it was, said, wow, I want to be part of that. And I, you know, I can't list the number of people that I want to appreciate for

building No Kings 2 up to be such a success without also name checking Mike Johnson, who just really spent the 10 days leading into the protest doing everything he could to build the publicity behind No Kings 2. And I, you know, I didn't pay him a dollar for any of that, but he just couldn't stop talking about this big protest coming up on Saturday. He wouldn't call it No. Kings because he knows that's unobjectionable, but he was really a building of the expectations. I think that brought a lot of people out on Saturday. So, Mike, if you're out there, really appreciate your hard work for no time. He's a big bulwark fan. Yeah. I'm sure he's watching. Lauren. I want to ask you sort of about some of the strategy decisions you guys have made.

You're not doing this every weekend. Like the last one was June, right? So does the scarcity of it help? And then also, what's the thinking behind having, instead of having like one big rally in D.C., these are happening all over the country? Like, why did you guys choose to do it that way? I think of things in terms of goal, strategy, tactics, not tactic strategy's goals. So you should start with your top level goal. You should devise a strategy that helps you achieve that goal. And then your tactics feed into that strategy.

I do think people play up protests like, no kings, both too much and too little. You see some people saying protest, why? This regime doesn't care. What does it actually accomplish? And then you see some people thinking, wow, if we magically hit some certain number, democracy wins and it's game over for the fascists. And that's also not true. So I would view big national protests like we saw on Saturday as one of the tactics we need to use in order to execute on a people power strategy in order to limit harm and ultimately fracture the mega coalition and take back power. So it was intentional. Churchill not to just have one location. We wanted a sense that this was everywhere. I was in D.C., 200,000 people out there. It was phenomenal. But my hometown in rural Texas had three in Hayes County, Jenner, California, population 120 had a no-kings rally. We had 15 rallies in Alaska, every single island of Hawaii, four on the big island. I mean, with 2,700 protests, you're really everywhere. You're in deep red rural, quote-unquote, Trump country. They're indivisible and no King's protests going on there.

And that's important to give a sense that this isn't just Blue America versus Red America. This isn't city centers versus Republican rural areas. This is everybody. And we want that sense because the picture,

the regime is painting of America, is one where we're just all divided. We hate each other. We're going to go and fight each other. There's going to be blood in the streets. And instead, what you see is in rural America, people with inflatable dinosaurs, costumes coming up against ICE and the National Guard and folks who are threatening

them. And that is such an effective way to push back against an overreaching authoritarianness. Don't get them the fear they want. Don't give them the conflict they want, but instead match that with massive peaceful opposition. You and I have talked before about Erica Chenowist's research from Harvard. She's this political scientist. And they basically have this theory that you need 3.5% of the population to take to the streets in order to block authoritarian takeover and that when you have 3.5% of the population

actually showing up that it's a really powerful indicator that you, the political leader in office can't hold on to their power. So how do you think about like the end goal for how many people you're trying to get to show up? Is the 3.5 number the goal here? Do you think that's what you need? What is 3.5% of the population? I'm not good in that. 11 and 12 million people. 11 to 12 million people in the U.S. context. So we talk with Erica a lot. Erica has come on our. our weekly call that we do with the movement. 3.5% is a figure in our heads. And also, Erica would tell you, too,

that is not some magical figure where there is some referee in the sky that will say, good job, no, Kings, you hit 11 million, game over, you won. That's not how this works. The 3.5% really looks at, are there 3.5% of the population engaged in productive on the ground

organizing in opposition to the regime in a consistent way? So not just do you get to show them, get them to show up on one day, but is it consistent? Now, if you can't get them to show up on one day, they're probably not engaged consistently beyond that. So as I look at the trends, three million in April, five million in June, seven million in October, I am then thinking, okay, when do we hit nine million, when do we hit 11 million, when do we hit 13 million? We have to grow. Movementments are growing or they're shrinking. We want to be growing. But it's also not

enough to just say, okay, boom, they're at this big protest. It begs the question, okay, then what's next. You got seven or eight million people out in October. What are they going to do between now and the next big mobilization? Well, Israel, let's talk a little bit about that because I am kind of fascinated about not just what the next protest is, but what do you do with the data that you're accumulating on the protesters, not just where they are, but who they are and things like that. I mean, the big discussion in term one around the women's march was, okay, can you collect this data? Can you turn these people into not just activists, but people who contribute to candidates, who will go to campaign events, who will actually knock on doors, things like that.

Is that what you're trying to do here is to turn these people into a wave, not just beyond activists, or is there something inherently at tension there, which is these people may not actually be fans of the Democratic Party. In fact, they might find the Democratic Party off-putting in this current incarnation. Talk a little bit about what you're doing with the data you're collecting and what you're trying to imagine in terms of using that data for a more proactive political purpose. Well, I mean, just to be clear, most Americans find the Democratic Party somewhat off-putting. I mean, its approval ratings are in the toilet for a reason, and it's a combination of MAGAs

and Republicans don't like the Democratic Party, and rank-and-bile Democrats are pissed off at the Democratic Party. So I think it is totally fine and welcome if you came to one of these protests and you're not a card-carrying Democrat. If we're not attracting people who find the Democratic Party off-putting, we're not going to succeed. And in fact, I would go a step further and say, if we're not attracting people who voted for Trump because they wanted lower prices or bread or eggs, then we're not going to succeed. We've got to build this big, enormous coalition of folks who aren't going to agree on everything. They are not going to agree on what we do in 27 or 29, but they can't agree on something very simple, Sam, we don't do kings in this country.

Right. But Mike, I guess my question is, yeah, my question is beyond just getting them to show up at a rally, how do you mobilize them in an electoral context? It's got to be beyond electoral. So I would think it is a mistake to say, well, the next big opportunity is the midterms. We've got to win in the midterms, but I'm worried that we're not going to have free and fair elections in midterms. So I think the real question is how do you capture and harness energy and not allowed to just dissipate? And the answer there is you've got to engage people in real work that is actually meaningful. Signing bullshit online petitions, fundraising through SMS messages for your own nonprofit. That's a a good way to burn out a grassroots force. And the only way that I've discovered the past decade or so of doing this, of getting people not just engaged once, but engaged persistently over time, is to get them plugged in in the most old-fashioned way possible, face-to-face local organizing with ideally a community of people who they like, who do important work and have fun doing it. That's our model, is local group-based organizing. And frankly, look, I'm biased. I like indivisible. I don't care if you join an indivisible group or a working family

party group or a sunrise group or some other local institution, whatever it is. But find human beings, find human beings who are geographically near you and start meeting with them and identifying where your leverage is. That might be to register voters, Sam. That might be to get out the vote on Proposition 50 in California or for the three Supreme Court races in Pennsylvania in three weeks or for the Virginia and New Jersey elections. Great. But beyond that, it might be putting pressure on whoever the next Disney is that tries to get a whoever the next Kimmel is off the air. We got 1.7 million people to cancel their subscriptions. We got protests outside of Burbank and in New York against ABC and Disney. There's going to be

more overreach from this regime. And it's not just focused in Congress. It's not just the state legislatures. It's universities, its businesses, its media institutions. And if there's not a countervailing force pushing back against the pressure the regime is applying, we lose. And that's not just elections. That's whether the basic fabric of our democratic society holds together or tears apart. Given that you are trying to reach people that maybe don't like the Democratic Party or were Trump voters who regret their decision, how do you think about having Democratic officials sort of involved in this movement? I know you guys had some Democratic leaders speak at the D.C. event.

I'm sure others spoke at some of the events in states. But like, have you had to have any sort of uncomfortable questions with Democratic officials sort of being like, hey, appreciate your support, but like we don't want this to be an event that's so clearly owned by Democratic leaders in this moment. Look, politicians go where the people go. What's the quote, the French quote? There go my people. I must follow them for I am their leader.

That's how it works. You build up the force. You build up a big enough group outside some congressional office or in some city. You're going to find elected officials. Any competent elect officials says, oh, I want to speak to that group. How do I get to that group? My job is not to say ex-congresman, ex-member, ex-senator, is on the good side. and they're on the bad side, I think if we're successful, the natural political gravity of what we're

doing will draw quote unquote leaders over to our side. I think we've seen a lot of examples of this over the last 11 months. 11 months ago, the conventional wisdom in D.C. was resistance is dead, defiance is stupid, cut deals with Trump. That's the smart move. Roll over and play dead. That's what James Carville said in New York Times op-ed. We have shifted that. At the very least, you get the aesthetics of opposition. You get angry letters and you get long speeches and you get more cursing. Some dims have gotten there. And then some other dims have gotten all the way over to real defiance where they're using the leverage they have to fight back. And I welcome the J.B. Pritzker's who started out in Defiance mode. I welcome the Gavin Newsom's who traveled that path. We've got to welcome

folks into Defiance as soon as they're ready to get here. But there is a time limit on that. And that time limit is called primary season. So I think you're going to see a lot of Democrats who are not yet caught up to the fight back to the party, which is the Senate, and they're going to have to find a new job pretty soon. You know, defiance mode, let's talk about the past nine months, just because you have your finger on the pulse more than basically anyone else who does this. But what have been the moments when you look at the data or when you talk to people, or maybe the issues, I suppose, that have been most galvanizing against Trump over the past nine months. So when I think about galvanizing moments, it's not just been against Trump. And a lot of

the energy we're seeing is a combination of two things that I've already touched on. One is Trump's saying this agenda, but the other is this sense of fecklessness, leaderlessness, corruption at the National Democratic Party level. And those are the things that are driving a lot of on the ground organizing that I see. People look at Trump and they look at local democratic leadership and like, shit, I guess I've got to do something. And they form their indivisible group where they get the Nick King's protest together. So I've seen inspiration on both sides. The Lake and Riley bill, which is very early on, the smart political thinking in democratic circles, this anti-immigrant bill, the Democrats voted for earlier this year, pissed people off on the ground to no end. There was this

sense of what the hell are you doing? You campaigned like this guy was Mussolini and you're handing him an anti-immigrant bill to sign in his first week as president. Why on earth would you do that? I think similarly, the Schumer shut down surrender back in March was another moment where people just started losing faith that the Democratic Party was up to the task at all. The backdrop of this, of course, is Trump's appointments of the least qualified cabinet in the history of the Republic, and then him ramping up attacks on American cities and ramping up attacks on American communities with his secret police force. When I think of what is motivating more people over to our side who weren't yet activists or weren't yet on the Democratic side at all or didn't think of themselves as pro-democracy, actively pro-democracy Americans, I do think what we're seeing with ICE and the attack on due process and the attack on cities is bringing people over. It doesn't feel political. This isn't like Reagan-esque cutting of taxes for billionaires and cutting health care. This is something different and something scary.

and it's going to get worse before it gets better. I mean, they're on a hiring spree for the proud boys right now. They have $171 billion that's flooding into this secret police regime. And that money has just started flowing. So if people are upset now, it's only going to get worse. Just as a matter of kind of tactics and organizing. I'm curious what it's like to do this in this hyper online age. I suppose it could cut both ways, right?

Like it's easier to reach people and get them, you know, informed about an event, attached them to other activists, you know, have conversations at the same time, you know, it's like a lot of people are just content to just sit at their computers and not go outside and do their activism that way. And of course, there's the whole issue of disinformation and misinformation and threats and things like that. For instance, we talked to a lot of people at these events who were worried about being pictured because they are federal employees. And they thought, well, there's cameras everywhere. It's ubiquitous. I might get fired. So talk a little bit about organizing in this hyper online era that we're in.

You know, I got to say, I have pretty antiquated ideas about how to organize, really. I think organizing online can be a part of the work that you do. But the core of what we're doing, Sam, look, human beings, homo sapiens have been gathering in small groups geographically based for 200,000 years. Like, we're the descendants of people who didn't leave the cave because they were eaten by the saber-toothed tigers, like there is something very human. Speak for your own ancestors. Well, you made it here somehow, Sam. I made it somehow.

Yeah. But there is something very natural during times of threat of wanting to reach out to other human beings for protection and safety. So our recommendation is that people gather physically together. And that's super old-fashioned. And it can be assisted by digital methods. Look, we have TikTok, we have Blue Sky, we have Instagram. We mobilize people that way, but that's not enough.

That's not going to solve our problem. If you think, like, the tech fascists who are supporting this regime are going to help you bring down this regime, you are sorely mistaken. We've got to develop our own systems for communicating and organizing with each other. And a lot of that's old tech. It's not new tech. So what's next? You got any more No Kings rallies planned for 2025? Well, we will have a No Kings the third, I guarantee it.

But I do think more importantly is what's directly in front of us. We should win the shutdown. and that means bucking up the Dems who are currently fighting back and unified more or less. And if they hold up, we should celebrate them. If they fracture, we should hold them accountable and we should move forward to seeing some new Democratic leadership. Beyond that, we've got elections in, what, two weeks? That's in Virginia and New Jersey and Pennsylvania and California. We both are living in an authoritarian regime and we have a Democratic Republic.

We should not give up on the Democratic Republic side. We should wipe the floor with them across the country. country wherever there are elections. And as I mentioned earlier, beyond that, we're headed into primary season. I think there's going to be a healthy debate across the country between folks who are more of the old guard, more of the rollover and play dead style. They might be right. Look, it's an argument. They can make it. But then we're going to see a lot of newer, younger, more media savvy fightback faction Democrats running. And I'd like to see as many of them when as possible. And in between these big major national mobilizations, there's going to be another Disney. There's not going to be

another Columbia University. There's going to be another Paul Weiss law firm. There are going to be more opportunities for targeted, focused, strategic pressure from organized millions who want to push back against the regime. And I think we've got to engage in those in a rapid response. Boom, that happened. Boom, we're here. Aswell-Liven, thank you so much. Co-founder of, co-founder and director, co-director of Indivisible, who helped organize the No King rally. Part two and part three, I guess is coming up. Keep us posted on the date. Appreciate you joining us. Subscribe to our feed to get more conversations just like this. Lauren, thanks a bunch too. Bye guys. Take care, guys.