Bulwark Takes - RFK Jr. Is the Biggest Public-Health Threat in U.S. History (w/ Sam Kass)

Episode Date: November 7, 2025

Jonathan Cohn talks with former White House chef and Obama nutrition advisor Sam Kass about RFK Jr.’s phony “health revolution.” Kass explains how the administration’s obsession with seed oils and food dyes is a smokescreen for dismantling the CDC, FDA, and USDA—and why RFK Jr. has become the biggest threat to public health in modern U.S. history. Go to https://Zocdoc.com/BULWARKTAKES to find and instantly book a doctor today.

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Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connix Ontario at 1866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. But MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Hey, everyone. It's Jonathan Cohn at The Bullwork. You know, we've been talking a lot about RFK Jr., what he's doing in vaccines, what's happening at the CDC. But there is a whole other part to his agenda, which is about food. It's interesting. There's things to see there that maybe there's some good parts, bad parts. Sifting through all that is complicated. We have the

perfect guest today to do that. It is Sam Cass. If you follow food, if you watch The Cooking Channel, if you remember the Obama years, you may know him. He was a chef in the Obama White House. He was also a senior policy advisor on nutrition policy for the Obama White House, an executive director of the Let's Move initiative that was run by the first lady. Since then, he's gone off into the private sector, but he's also the author of a brand new book called The Last Supper, How to Overcome the Coming Food Crisis. Sam, I'm so glad you're here to help us sort through these issues.

it's great it's great to be here thanks for having me yeah now there's actually i can say there's an alternative universe right where actually you're you're not in food you're actually you play for the for the white socks i looked up you played college baseball and i think i saw you had a 366 lifetime average the university of chicago is that right yeah i was i was trying to get drafted i actually went to junior college for a couple years before then uh in the hopes of making to the major leagues much to my mother's chagrin but uh but eventually you know i went to uc and then and sort of hung up the cleats, so to speak, although I played there. Oh, the clades, yeah, yeah.

Well, you did okay. You did okay. Now, how did you get to food? I mean, I heard this story once, so that was interesting. I mean, how did that happen? Because, I mean, baseball to food, not a typical trajectory. Yeah, not at all. So I was finishing University of Chicago, and I had a semester left.

And I'd always love to cook, and I felt like, you know, one day I should go to culinary school because if you know how to cook, your life's better, you know, if you can feed yourself and feed your future family. And so I said that. to the head, I said that to a friend of mine boyfriend who was a chef. And so he invited me into this into a kitchen in Chicago. I basically showed up at this Italian American restaurant and just started helping out because he was like, don't go to culinary school. It's a waste of your money. It's super expensive. Just come hang out in the kitchen. And so then I had a great time, although I didn't

know anything, it was kind of a disaster. Had one semester left and went to, got into an abroad program in Vienna and ended up through a very random connection got introduced to the sous chef of the best restaurant in Vienna and they offered for me to come in and just hang out in stage they call it just volunteer um i watched it there so these terms now mean something to me yeah that episode about when they went overseas to do the training was like hit so close to home so that was basically my life really okay that was realistic okay yeah yeah yeah totally i i i worked for free i would wake up and go work, the lunch service that I'd run to class, and then for two hours, and then work, dinner service,

and then drink with the chefs late into the night and do it all again the next day. And then so how do you end up at the White House? Like, what is the short version of that? The very short version of that is, like, during early, actually, in that training, I started realizing, you know, how much our food system was undermining our health

and also starting to undermine and erode planetary health. And so I started doing deep dives into every book I could read around these issues around agriculture and food policy. And it was, you know, very nascent back then. And so I ended up after sort of cooking and traveling around the world for about five years, but really focusing in on these issues less around, you know, like what's the next recipe I could figure out how to make.

I came back to Chicago, coincidentally right after the Obama's head. And then Senator Obama had launched the campaign for presidency and got connected with Michelle. And, you know, it was just grandma. They didn't have like any kind of staff or team. And she had two young kids. So I started helping them out during the campaign a couple, you know, a few nights a week. And, you know, was talking about all the issues that families were facing and all the challenges and the health crisis we were in. And so we sort of decided to take on these issues if we were so lucky to get to the White House.

And we actually got very all caught up one night, getting, like, you know, very excited about, you know, we could plant a garden and then do this big health initiative. It's going to be amazing. And then we realized, like, this guy's 30 points down the polls. Like, she writes about this in her book. It's like, what are we talking about? We started laughing ourselves. But the rest was history. Yeah, yeah.

So the agenda, the food, I mean, the people don't, you know, they think about health care. They think about, you know, financial agenda. Well, the food agenda in the Obama administration, there was a lot of work you guys did. I mean, it was a pretty ambitious agenda. Some of, like, what were the goals? What was the sort of, what were you trying to do? We were trying to transform the health of the nation. You know, we were doing it in a different time than we find ourselves today.

We focused in on kids and kids' health because it was much harder to fight against, you know, trying to improve the health of children. Then, you know, it's sort of like who's against that. And so, like, just politically and strategically, that's where we focus. But also from an intervention standpoint, you'll have the biggest impact, the younger you start in terms of trying to improve people's health and get them on the right trajectory. But, yeah, we were looking to make, you know, fundamentally shift the health of the country, make these issues relevant to people, have them understand the connection between their food and their health and try to change the way we feed ourselves. And I think we made a tremendous amount of progress. obviously, you know, tackling a problem as massive and entrenched as our food system is, takes generations. So you're never going to get there in a couple terms. But I think we got a lot

done. So when we talk about what was missing for kids, and I know this is, I mean, this is half your book. So it's hard to summarize. But I mean, to what extent is it kids not getting the right stuff, too much of the bad stuff, the way the food has produced itself is bad for them? Is it all of those things? I mean, what are we talking about? Yeah, it's all of that and more. I mean, I think basically our food environments are setting people up for failure. You know, the 80% of the foods we're on the shelves are not classified as healthy. We aren't allocating enough resources to feed our kids in schools or certainly to support the nutritional needs of the most vulnerable in the country. And just generally, you know, we are prioritizing as a culture, you know,

taste and convenience, first and foremost, and cost. And so it's providing, you know, we're providing people with mostly unhealthy, empty calories, you know, that are, you know, chock full of sugar and fat and salt. And we're not getting the kind of nutrient density that we need in the bites that we're having. And that's playing out kind of in every quarter of the system. And that's on the health side. And then on the environmental side, you know, food and agriculture is a number two driver of emissions, globally, number one driver of deforestation and land use change and biodiversity loss,

number one use of the world's freshwater. And it's being pummeled by climate. And so it's both a driver of environmental degradation and on the front lines of it and really being challenged. And so we have a lot of work to do if we're going to create a food environment and a food system that is both supporting the well-being of the citizenry, as well as protecting our ability to feed future generations in the way that, you know, we've been fed. Even, even the status quo now, which is wildly unacceptable, is under threat given given the realization of what climate's already starting to do to our food system. Now, you said a minute ago, you know, you focused on kids because, you know, who could be against good health for kids? And that's right, right? No one's

against good health for kids. But I remember very distinctly, you guys, yeah, a ton of flack over this, you know, and they were effort, I mean, I, I, tell me if I'm wrong, but I mean, it seemed like there was a lot of pushback, my recollection, and a lot of this was, you know, Michelle Obama wagging her finger at what you wanted to eat. And, and I mean, am I wrong? Did I imagine all that? No. It, it, given where things are right now, I feel like I'm living in the upside down, because back then, the, you know, the GOP fought us on absolutely everything. I mean, there wasn't a thing we tried to do that wasn't uh you know criticized critiqued both on the hill and you know all the the various uh conservative network you know fox and the rest um what's an example

like what was something you got pushed back on oh i mean sarah palin was like passing out cookies and say get the nanny state out of our our house michel obama like you know you have no business telling us what to eat um like you know there's clips after cliff everything we tried to do uh saw resistance. We had, you know, people in Capitol Hill, Republicans pushing back and trying to, you know, tie our hands on school nutrition reform or any of the other things we were trying to do. Bullwork takes is sponsored by Zock Doc. Remember that doctor's appointment you were supposed to make a while ago? That one you meant to book, but you got kind of sidetracked and completely forgot about it until now. You know that overdue annual checkup that's been about

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slash bulwark takes to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. That's Z-O-C-D-O-C dot com slash bulwark-takes. Zock-D-C-com slash bulwark takes. Well, let's zoom ahead, right? Now we have a new administration. We have a secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kenny Jr. He talks all about food. I've heard him up there.

He's doing, he's doing things on food dyes and seed oils. And, you know, this is his mantra, making America healthy again. He wants people to eat better. So that sounds great, right? I mean, isn't that what you were talking about? Yes. I'd say the critique. I think we're there's.

Let's try to give them the broad view is the critique he's giving. How does that sound? Yes, I think the critique is largely right. I mean, I think, you know, at times I feel like he overstates some things. The conspiratorial nature of some of the way he lays out his critique. sometimes I think is just not accurate. Some, by the way, is. I mean, you know, this is, I'm not naive.

I've been in the trenches for a long time. So I think, you know, the critique is largely one that I agree with and one that has been, that we were saying back then and has been, you know, been discussed by many authors and critics for a long time. So I think there's a lot of similarities there. And I think that critique, one is it important. One and two is evocative for those of us who, really care about this issue and doing work, you know, in the trenches in different parts of society.

And it's important and exciting when somebody in a position of real power is uttering this critique. And I think that's why he's been able to get a lot of people to come be supportive of this administration, including friends of mine, who otherwise would never get behind what's going on. But they see this issue as their most important issue and are willing to, to support what's happening here, you know, despite the rest. I take a big issue. I got a lot of problems with that, but I do understand why people find that exciting. After that point, it all falls apart, like, dramatically.

How so? Where to even start? First of all, I'd say on that, I'll just start with what's happening externally, and then what that's covering up, that's happening behind the scenes. externally the reason it falls apart is none of the issues that they're actually working on is going to make an iota of difference to the health of the nation let's just start with food dyes

you know fruit loops with food dyes fruit loops without food dyes is still not something you probably should be feeding your kids there's no fruit loops it is there's still fruit loops like I'm not like some big supporter of food dyes like I'm happy to see them go but you will see absolutely no difference to the public health whether they're there or not they are just not the problem

seed oils you know this the the influencer ecosystem that has been built is very powerful and convincing these guys are very good at picking some study that casts some bit of doubt on something overstate what that study you know is actually claiming when you read it and create this whole fear-based ecosystem of this ingredient or that ingredient is going to kill you or is killing you see those the perfect example it even got me like I had to go back I was like did I get this one wrong? Like, maybe I've been missing this this whole time. And I didn't go back and, like, do, you know, review all the studies and talk to a bunch of experts and realize like, yeah, no, this is complete bullshit. Like, seed oils are not dangerous. In fact, they are, oh, study after

study better than saturated fat. And we have the head of HHS going to fast food restaurants, touting cheeseburgers and french fries as healthy because they were fried in beef tallow. I mean, it's just insane. It's absolutely insane. So none of what they focused on so far is going to have any impact positively in public health. In fact, you know, on that issue actually could move us backwards. The reports that they've been promoting, you know, have absolutely no fidelity in them, no details. And they're just not addressing any of the core issues that are going to, would have a positive impact on our health. What makes that much worse is that behind the scenes, they're destroying the institutions that are actually there to help move us in a better direction.

They're gutting the CDC, they're gutted FDA, they've destroyed NIH, and same with USDA. I mean, USDA is being completely dismantled from the inside out. And, you know, it's under this mantra of, you know, we care about your kids, we're working to get these toxic things out of your food. None of that's really happening. and behind the scenes, the regulatory agencies that would be in charge of this to actually try to make progress are all being gutted and decimated. It's a complete travesty, and I think he's just hoodwinking the American public.

I think, like, that's the food side. You know, then what you see, they're kind of laundering the rest of the behavior of this administration. You could take Tylenol and then into vaccines, and I think when you start to understand what's happening there, I think it's, he is unequivocally the most, the biggest threat to public health the United States has ever faced. The implications of what's happening in those areas are so scary for all parents. And I'm a father of two kids, two boys, eight and six. It is, it is, it is hard to overstate the implication here what's happening.

And the food side is really like what brings like the suburban mom and the person who's care worried about their kids. Oh, look, they're fighting for us. us like I can trust them like they're doing it and they bring them into the tent but really what's happening is calamity when it comes to the health of the country I cannot overstate it yeah yeah well and and the uh the sort of the seed oil I that when you were describing going back to the studies on seed oil I've had that experience with some of the vaccines where you know they're talking about I'm like wait a minute you know I've done the deep dive on these studies did I miss something and I go back like, no, no, no, they're just, you know, they're just, they're cherry picking this number and

that number and putting things together. One thing they emphasized, I know, is sort of nutrition standards for SNAP and for school lunches. Of course, that's not all that's going on with SNAP and school lunches, at least with SNAP, we're about to have the biggest cut in food assistance in history. How does that net out? I mean, if we have on the one hand, you know, if they're, sort of theoretically upgrading the standards for SNAP, but then they're cutting the money that's going into SNAP, what does that mean? Yeah. This is all a ruse to try to, you know, restrict benefits for poor people. It's just full stop. And this is nothing new. I was fighting this fight every cycle, every budget cycle when I was in the White House. I personally as a public health advocate and somebody who's been working on the policy for a long time, I'm empathetic and think there is a path where some standards around SNAP benefits could be in the best interest of of taxpayers and of the public, you can only do that, however, if you are meaningfully increasing

the benefit. Because right now, it's simply nowhere near enough money to buy healthy food. Right now, the way that they actually calculate how much people should be compensated for nutrition assistance is based on sort of a sketched-out diet. And right now it includes like 40 servings of beans. Don't quote me, it's not exactly that number, but it's like you've got to eat a ton of beans because they're cheap and it's like the only thing you're eating but nobody can eat like that and so the benefit is just way too small uh to actually purchase you know nutritious food so if we were willing to meaningfully increase the benefit i would be open to uh finding some ways to you know have the most egregious like you know soda or candy bars to be restricted until you do

that this is just a yet another in a long series of efforts to uh pull back and push down programs that are supporting poor people in America. And it's unconscionable. It is absolutely, given who's in the, you know, in office, it's just how dare they go after people who are just barely hanging on and try to strip these benefits. I was thinking, you know, just thinking ahead because I'm an optimist, hopeless one. And so thinking to a time when we might have either a change of heart from this leadership or different leadership in the White House and what an agenda might look like.

And your book is that. It lays out an agenda. It's a big, you can't summarize it in two minutes, I know, but just talk a little bit about the fact that, I mean, it's a food agenda, but also a climate agenda, right? I mean, it's really the marriage of those, too. I'm happy you're an optimist. I mean, I'm hopeful, but not necessarily optimistic. Yeah, I mean, look, when you look at what's happening to our food system and the impacts of climate change, many of the foods we love and hold deer like coffee, wine, chocolate, shellfish, crustaceans, stone fruit, nuts, like a long list of, like, you know, food. that we're eating frequently are really under threat and may not be available at

least at a price point that most people can afford you know in our lifetimes let alone our kids and grandkids lifetimes and that's not taking into account then what's going to happen to the big commodities like rice especially over three and a half billion people depend on on a daily basis for rice as a core part of their diet as climate you know makes that production and those yields come down, the implications for global stability, for food security, and then political stability, forced migrations and conflicts is, it's hard to actually wrap your mind around the implications. I mean, security in both sense of the word, right? Security for individuals, but also affects

like national security issues. It is one of the animating issues that is, you know, national security experts in the future are gaming out and are very concerned about. And that's the other thing. I just have to bring it back to this administration. It's like, if you really care about making America healthy again, how can you possibly oversee the total gutting of every climate-related policy in government, pulling back every regulation on greenhouse gas emissions, but also at USDA, which was working to start to invest

in setting our food system up for the volatility that we face ahead to help growers figure out how to produce food in a much more difficult climate, that's all been completely gutted. And there's, you know, the most, the biggest threat I think we've faced to our public health is climate change. And if we're not aggressively taking this on, the future is going to be quite dire. And I'm extremely concerned about it. I think when you step back and look at it, I just have to get this. You know, I think in the end, when you look at who we have leading this, we have a class action lawyer leading our public health system.

And you already quickly saw Tylenol now get a massive lawsuit based on this finding. from HHS. I think in the end, that's what this is about. This isn't about our health. This is about lawyers making a lot of money. And I think as we get out of this administration, that's what we're gonna start to see. But the reality is the core issues that they've raised

around our health and the future of our health is critical. And that's gonna mean having real policies that improve the actual food that gets onto our plates and aggressively taking on climate so that future generations are gonna be able to eat, in the same way that we've been able to. And that's what's at stake. Our very way of life when you start to get into what's happening in our food system

is truly under threat. We're seeing whole collapses of different crops or different species that have been, we've been, regions that have depended on. Like a couple years ago, we lost 90% of the Georgia peach crop because of extreme weather. When you look at the models, you can give or take 10 years here. By the next 20, 30 years, there's probably not going to be any peaches really growing in Georgia at all. Wow. It's just one example.

I could give you hundreds of those examples. And so really our way of life and our culture is really, you know, under threat here. So we need aggressive action. And that is absolutely not what we're seeing, in fact, quite the opposite. Well, maybe for lucky this, at least the themes that are streaming of being sound here that are, that we all agree on. We'll carry over past this administration and give us a head start. And definitely, if you want to learn more about this, I recommend Sam's book, The Last Supper, how to overcome the coming food crisis.

Sam, thanks for spending time with us here at the bulwark today. Thanks so much for having me. It was a pleasure. All right. And if you like these kind of conversations and these issues, please think about subscribing to our YouTube channel, subscribe to our newsletters, and we'll see you next time.