Bulwark Takes - The Most Disgraceful Action By A Law Firm Ever (w/ George Conway)

Episode Date: March 21, 2025

George Conway joins Tim Miller to discuss the law firm Paul Weiss bending to Donald Trump in order to have an executive order rescinded, with the exchange of pro bono lawyer support towards the administration.  Read More in Morning Shots, "Big Law’s Big Capitulation"

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Gear up for success with a brand that says you best. You can do it yourself on Wix. Hey, everybody. It's Tim Miller from The Bulwark. Look who I got. It's George Conway. We're doing a little bonus segment of George Conway Explains It All. He's going to explain to me

and this is the impetus for this is that I was watching his blue sky skeets. I call them skeets. Nobody else does, but I'm going to. And he needs to call them something. Yes, I like skeets. People don't like it because in

rap culture in like the 90s skeets had a term that you shouldn't google if you don't like sexy talk but i i think that you know that to me that just kind of makes it a little bit more exciting um anyway uh i'm gonna google it i can't help myself okay well i'll tell you offline uh the um george wrote this the paul weiss capitulation is the most disgraceful action by a major law firm in my lifetime. So appalling that I couldn't believe it at first. Paul Weiss, to be clear, for people like me who are not lawyers, is not a person, but is a firm. It's Paul, Weiss, that has done a lot of work in D.C. related cases.

And they essentially just groveled and capitulated and were extorted by the President of the United States. George, why don't you explain what happened and why it's so outrageous? Yeah. Paul Weiss, Rifkin, Wharton, and Garrison is one of the preeminent law firms in the city of New York. It is a law firm that it's one of these firms that kind of formed because way back in the day you had your wasps and they didn't care much for

Jews and so the Jews formed their own law firm and this became one of the prominent law firms to this day and the full name of the firm is Paul Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton, and Garrison. And Rifkind is a man who became lionized in the bar, not only because he was a very, very talented lawyer, but he later became a judge and a very, very well-respected judge. And the firm, I mean, look, it's a stellar law firm. It is one of the top

four or five law firms, to my mind, in the city of New York. It is considered to be one of the two or three best litigating firms in New York, I think, by many people. I've worked with them in the past. I've had many good relationships with people at that firm. I think in more recent years, it's become, as a lot of law firms have become, they've become much more mercenary and much more oriented toward the bottom line. Not that these firms in New York never made a lot of money, but they make oodles and oodles of money. I work for one right across the street from Paul Weiss, Rifkin, Wh mean, one of the reasons why I can shoot my mouth off today is I made a lot of money there and everybody can, you know, I have no F's to give anymore. And here, what happened was Paul Weiss had a former partner, a retired partner named Mark Pomerantz. And Pomerantz decided because he was a patriot and because

he reached the same conclusion that I and a lot of people did early on in the Trump administration, that Donald Trump was a recidivist criminal. And, you know, there were a lot of suspicions about the shady real estate deals he engaged in and whether or not he paid taxes and in particular, whether or not he, for example, overstated valuations for the purposes of valuations of his real estate properties, for the purposes of getting bank loans and for the purposes of making insurance claims, while at the same time understating it for tax purposes and just blank, you know, having double sets of book and doing all sorts of bad things. And Pomerantz and another very prominent lawyer, a former partner at another one of the stellar law firms in New York, Davis, both in Wardwell, a guy named Kerry Dunn, who at one point was

president of the Association of the Bar of the City of New York, one of the most prominent local bar organizations in the country, if not the planet. They joined as special assistant district attorneys, the office of district attorney, then district attorney of Manhattan, Cy Vance, and they proceeded to investigate Donald Trump. And that resulted in some litigation. Fast forward to the present. Donald Trump is settling scores now that he is president of the United States again. And he is settling scores in particular with law firms and conducting, you know, a campaign against law firms and has said that he is going to get all the bad lawyers, basically the ones he feels did bad things to him. And there was the Perkins Coy executive order, which I'm sure you've discussed on other podcasts. I've discussed it. We've discussed it on my podcast. There was an order against the law firm in Covington and Burling.

And then they issued an fact that Paul Weiss had an association with this longtime partner, former partner, Pomerant County, of New York County, had nothing to do with his work with Paul Weiss. It just happens to be that Paul Weiss is on his resume. And the president issued an executive order saying that Paul Weiss was some kind of a danger to the nation and all terrible and needed to be punished and placing contracts with the federal government. Yeah. I mean, all sorts of stuff. And it's like, dude, the guy's not even there anymore. And he didn't do any of this stuff of which you were probably guilty, at least from a civil burden of proof, while he was at Paul Weiss. And

Paul Weiss, you know, I mean, lots of people, Paul Weiss go in and out of government, mostly, mostly it's a democratic firm, which makes what happened all the more shocking. I mean, one of the partners there is Jay Johnson, former head of what D Obama in the, I think, was it the Obama administration or a very smart and capable guy, Damian Williams, the former United States attorney for the Southern district of New York, who was the United States, one of the United States attorneys most recently. He was in during the Biden administration who indirectly oversaw the prosecution of Mayor Adams. And basically they punish this law firm for basically nothing. I mean, first of all, everything Pomerantz did was legal.

He was conducting a legitimate investigation, the facts of which ultimately resulted in civil sanctions against Trump. And the only thing you could criticize Pomerantz for is really no business of Trump's. It was the fact that he later wrote a book about the investigation and his experience about the investigation. And people have raised questions about whether that was ethical and proper, but that really is a question of his ethical obligations to the office of the district attorney. So anyway, what happens is this happens and everybody thinks, well, Paul Weiss is going to fight because this is completely ridiculous. It's unconstitutional. It is a violation of the First Amendment. It is an abuse of the public power of the presidency, as was the Covington and the Perkins-Cooey memos and all these other memos and all these other executive orders for all sorts of reasons, the abolishment of the Department of Education for different reasons, because he doesn't have the power to overturn the statute of Congress with an executive order. But this one was particularly outrageous.

Everybody just assumed Paul Weiss was going to give Donald Trump the finger. And because it's, you know, it's known as an aggressive litigation firm. That is their bread and butter. They fight. They're tough guys. They fight defending banks and defending their corporate clients, which I would be perfectly happy if I were the general counsel of Citibank, which has been a big client of theirs over the years, to have them on my roster of people who defend my company from claims. And yet what happened was the managing partner, who I dealt with in the past, I know him. He's a very kind of slick guy and a very, very smart guy and a very able guy.

And he's kind of remade help. He's kind of remade that firm in a lot of ways, some good, some bad, in my opinion. You know, the news was he's coming down to the White House to talk to the president. And everybody was like, what? What's there to talk about? And then last night, there was this settlement announced by Donald Trump where Paul Weiss agrees to conduct $40 million worth of, if I have this right, I mean, I saw it in the equivalent of $40 million in pro bono legal services over the course of Trump's term to support the administration's initiatives, including fairness in the justice system. We know what that means for these guys. And the president's task force to combat anti-Semitism. It also says that Paul Weiss will not adopt, use, or pursue any DEI policies. Paul Weiss will take on a range of pro bono matters that represent the full spectrum of political viewpoints of our society, including conservative. So there you go.

I mean, you know, look, I have no problem with pro bono conservative work. I've done some myself over the years. Demanded to by the president of the United States as part of an extortion scheme? Absolutely not. And also the definition of conservatism under the Trump administration, to my mind, isn't conservative. It's fascistic and authoritarian. And it's, you know, I mean, this is stuff that would make, you know, make Ronald Reagan go, you know, roll his grave. And certainly stuff that would make

the founders of Paul Weiss, such as Judge Rifkin, roll over in their grave. They believed in the public interest. They didn't believe in the use of government authority in a narcissistic and self-serving fashion by a man who not only fails to conduct himself in accordance with his oath to faithfully execute the laws and the Constitution of the United States, but outright abrogates it and seeks to destroy the laws and undermine the laws and the constitution of the United States. And that's my, you know, and that's why I just found this so appalling. There's no lawyer of any degree of intelligence, um, who can't, who shouldn't be, who could misunderstand the fact that Donald Trump is engaging in a mass accretion of power, trying to belong to the other branches. He's engaging in the overturning of legislation by executive order, essentially usurping the Article I powers of Congress. And he's continually undermining the courts.

His people are misleading the courts. They are conducting, they are attacking the courts. They're attacking judges who rule against them. They are essentially trying, they are in a rather obvious way, but not in an open declaration sort of way, disobeying court orders. I mean, this is the, we are down the path to authoritarianism and that's what causes, that's what caused this capitulation. It is just an astounding, astounding display of moral cowardice by people who have to know better. People who heretofore, I mean, you raise your hand to become a lawyer.

I mean, you are an officer of the court. You're bound to support the law and the Constitution of the United States. You have a moral obligation as a lawyer, too, because you have dedicated yourself to joining a profession that is based upon the rule of law. You make money off the rule of law. It's a very special profession. I know everybody says, let's shoot all the lawyers like Shakespeare did, but it's not like, I don't know, pick some other profession, although other professions have different ethical obligations and moral commitments.

We can make fun of lobbyists. They're right down the hall of the same firm. You've written about that. And it is – I just – I don't think this would have happened in some other age. I think these law firms have become so obsessed with the money that they make, which only makes it worse to my mind. I'm not against anybody making money. I am grateful for the 30 years I spent at a big New York law firm where I made more money than I probably had any right to make.

But that should be a reason why you should be able to stand up to these people. Yes. Right. And it should come with obligation. How many houses in the Hamptons do you need? I don't, I don't understand. And to me,

Georgia too. So there are two related things to this. One is the, cause I want to come back to their individual choices. Cause I think you're calling for some people to quit but before we get to that just really quick the bigger picture like this cowardice is that will have real ramifications across the country and in how the private sector and law firms do their work and what they're willing to do and not willing to do like if you back like this you're saying this wouldn't happen in another age but it is

happening right now in Hungary where companies are just folding. People are just folding. Institutions are just folding. They're saying, look, if I get any pressure from the autocrat, then I'll let them dictate my hiring policies. We won't take on cases that will make him mad. And once people start making those concessions,

the ramifications are very real. And it gives authoritarian-style power to this president without even making him fight for it. They're just submitting to it. They're just handing it over to him. I couldn't agree more, Tim. And I think there are two levels upon which you can look at it. First off is one of the things that authoritarians do is they divide and conquer. You think you're alone, you don't want to be single out, so you capitulate. And that sets an example for the

next one. That's the general level, and that applies to corporations, media entities, for example, like ABC, when it settled that absolutely nonsensical lawsuit about George Stephanopoulos calling Trump essentially an adjudicated rapist when the judge had said three times that what Trump had been found to have done by the jury, while not technically rape under New York law, was in any ordinary colloquial sense rape. Because, you know, I mean, there's no real moral difference to my mind between violently inserting one's penis into a woman, a non-consenting woman's vagina and inserting your finger in there. But for some reason that Trump decided that was a big moral difference to him and he filed a lawsuit and then ABC shamefully threw Stephanopoulos under the bus and settled it. But this is the second point point to go back to the second

one is that one is the sort of you, you divide and conquer and everybody feels like they're standing out there alone and they can't do anything and they just don't want him to come after me. And, and, and, you know, there's sort of a domino effect. But the second is, who is Paul Weiss? This is a law firm. These are the people you hire to defend yourself when you have been wronged. These are the people who you would hire to defend yourself against wrongful action by the government against your business. And if they capitulate like wormy cowards the way they have, what does that – that's the message that that in particular sense, that an aggressive litigating law firm acts like just – I don't even – there's got to be a better word than just shameless, slimy coward that I can't – the problem with the Trump era is we need an extended thesaurus to come up with more negative descriptions of people and things. We need to think about it.

It sends an incredible message. Why should any other law firm fight? Why should any corporation fight? Or, by the way, if you're an individual who wants to fight, you're losing the people that you would go to to potentially defend you right like so if if perkins cooey can't do it because they're under executive you know they're getting attacked by by the president uh you can't trust paul weiss right like you're running out of qualified people to do it yeah and as the judge pointed out in the Perkins Coie hearing that I had a good fortune of sitting in and watching last week, they could go after Perkins Coie's lawyers now, Williams and Connolly, which showed an incredible degree of courage.

And I admire them even more now because their willingness to step up is such a sharp contrast to Paul Weiss and a lot of other firms. You know, there's no end to it because these orders, these executive orders are premised on the notion that Donald Trump can just declare anyone he doesn't like to be a threat to the, I guess, national security of the United States. And he's arrogating to himself. He believes that if he makes that determination in his sole judgment, that somebody is a threat to the United States, then he can do whatever he wants to them and have the fact that use every

mechanism available to him to punish that entity. And what in fact is going on is these people aren't threats to the United States of America. The biggest threat, the biggest security threat to the United States of America is the president of the United States, but let's leave that aside. He's just using the government as a proxy. He's just using it as an extension of his own personal interest as a way to convene. You know, these people did me wrong while I was not president. Therefore, now that I am president, I'm going to use the arms of the mechanisms of government to destroy these people or at least bring them to heel and make them grovel. And that is just straight out authoritarianism. That is, we are there. This is the last thing I'll let you go. You wrote also that any lawyers at the firm, partners or associates who don't promptly resign will defile their moral and professional reputations beyond repair.

You've had a chance to sleep on that. You still think that? Yeah. You know, I believe that to be true. I hope that to be true. If it is not, it is only because if that is not true, if that turns out to be true, this country is lost. Okay? Because if the people who are standing by Paul Weiss and staying

there and allowing this to happen, you know, are not morally shunned, then we're done. We're done because that means that people are willing to put their own personal interests, their own fears, their own pocketbooks and whatnot, ahead of the Constitution and the laws of the United States, the system that made it possible for these people to achieve the success that they have achieved. And I cannot believe that there aren't going to be lawyers who are just going to be sick about this and who are going to leave. And I think the associates ought to be. I mean, I think I hope that this backfires.

And if it doesn't, we've got a big problem. People need to start doing the right thing because it's the right thing. People need to look themselves iniss the other day, who I know, and also an old friend of mine who I think had something to do with organizing this. Have you heard from him? I think it was done more by some guys in Washington. No return phone calls from him yet? Some guys in Washington, but I, you know, I don't know. No return phone calls from him yet. I, I don't think he'd want to call me basically. You know, I'll only give more of it to him.

And it hurts me. It pains me to have to do that. I mean, I, you know, I, we, and you have this, have had this experience too. I know given you came through, you know, the political road to where you are today. And I came through kind of the legal thicket to where I am today. But, you know, I get people capitulate and do the wrong thing. I've done the wrong thing in the wrong thing i've done the wrong thing in the past you've done the wrong thing in the past no doubt a whole book about it and but there's a certain point where you have to look yourself in the mirror and say how did we get here and And it has been so distressing to me to see how many people who know better, who should know better, basically out of moral apathy, moral cowardice, moral corruption, some combination of those three, basically accede to or join in on things

that they know to be wrong. That's the thing I will never get over. I mean, I can understand there's going to be some of it, but I can't get over the degree to it. And the Paul Weiss thing to me was just absolutely flooring. I did not believe the news at first when I first saw a couple of tweets about it, because I thought, oh, maybe some reporter is just getting fed some bullshit from the White House. And then I saw Trump's statement. It was like, well, Trump's full of shit. Although, gee, it looks to be some carefully worked out text. And then I saw, you know, the time story and it was true. And I called some friends and I said, yep, Karp did this. Paul Weiss did this.

And to finish it off, I lost my train of thought here, but I really, here's what the point I wanted to to make and maybe this is a good way to finish. Okay. I am more upset this morning about what happened with Paul Weiss than I was the morning after the election. Because you held them in higher regard. You expected more from them. I held them in higher regard, I expected more from them i held them in a higher regard i guess than than the average voter than the average voter i guess but i think

it's more i i guess that's true um but i think it's more that i was psychologically prepared for a trump victory after seven years eight years of watching this shit show that we have that will someday, that someday historians will reflect as just a black mark on the history of the United States, if it ever, if it survives. I was prepared psychologically for Trump's win. I mean, that's why I spent so much effort trying to defeat him, even though I had convinced myself by the end that I thought Kamala was going to squeak by and pull it off. I woke up that morning. I said, OK, well, it happened. And I did my best, you know, with a lot of other people to try it, just make sure it didn't happen. I was psychologically prepared for it. I knew that it was a possibility that I put anywhere

from 20 to 40%, sometimes 50%, depending on how things were going. You know, I knew it could happen. But last night is something I couldn't ever, I couldn't imagine it. I couldn't imagine working at that firm. I couldn't imagine, you know, just capitulating in such a shameful and weak and cowardly fashion. And in the same way, I can't imagine going to, if I were Paul Weiss, going to work today without cleaning out my fucking desk. And I hope, I mean, I hope this turns around somehow, but it really, this is just a very, very disheartening moment. That is a good place to leave it. Thank you, George Conway, for explaining what was happening to me.

And we'll be talking to you soon, brother. Hang in there. All right? Yep.