Bulwark Takes - Tim Miller Has Some BRUTAL Advice for Democrats (w/ Lib & Learn)

Episode Date: April 29, 2026

Tim Miller joins the Lib & Learn podcast to discuss the WHCD incident, the media spin that followed, and why both parties keep getting the moment wrong. He explains the real problem inside the Democratic coalition, how the GOP’s viral messaging machine works, and what it would actually take for Democrats to win again.Exclusive $25-off Carver Mat athttps://on.auraframes.com/BULWARKTAKES. Promo Code BULWARKTAKESCheck out the Lib & Learn podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@LibAndLearn/streams

Hey everybody, Tim Moore from the Bullwork here. I went on a live stream called Live and Learn as part of my endeavor to become a streamer. And you know, when you get an invite to come on a stream from somebody called Mr. Soy Pill, you really have no choice but to do it, at least in my view. And so I reached back out to Mr. Pill. We're now friends. So I can call him Soy and said, yeah, let's do it. And so I hung out with him.

and a couple other guys. Unfortunately, I missed. One of their other co-streamers is, I guess, the guy from Pretty Fly for a White Guy, which is, I don't know, a millennial bro reference. But anyway, so unfortunately he was gone. But some of the other characters were there, Hutch and Pisco. And so we all just hung out and talked a lot about the Democratic Party. We talked a little bit about the dinner.

and, you know, kind of all the craziness around the dinner at the beginning. If you've had your fill of that from me, you kind of scoot forward about 20 minutes. I was on with these guys for like 90 minutes. And then we're getting to, I think, a pretty interesting conversation about, like, how the Democratic Party should move forward. What are things they can do to appeal more broadly? You know, how do you balance kind of the left progressive flank with kind of what people more the middle want is that a sustainable coalition all that kind of stuff um and uh and so i had a lot of fun uh vibing out with those guys on that um hope you enjoy it's a little more kind of casual

chatty than my usual fair um so stick around for me soy pill pisco hutch characters of the internet enjoy board takes a sponsor by aura frames look mother's day is coming up and this is the last holiday where you want to get caught flat footed. Trust me, I've been there. It got ugly. Thankfully, OroFrams, digital picture frames are a complete layup of a gift because you can give your mom more of her favorite thing. And what is that?

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That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com promo code, bulwark takes. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout, and terms and conditions do apply. Oh, and subscribe to our feed, by the way? We're trying to get to $2 million. Subscribe. Live and Learn the only podcast that starts on time every time. I'm the soy pill. With me as always, Hutch, Pisco, and special guests today,

give a warm welcome to Tim Miller of the board. What's up, Mr. Pill? How's it going? Mr. Pill was my father. Call me soy. Hey, soy. Good to have you, Tim. How you all doing?

I don't know. I'm feeling pretty bad. We don't have a ballroom. And the events that just transpires show that we need it. Yeah, you can't be safe without a ballroom on the White House grounds. No one is safe anymore, right? It is. It's kind of like a Mad Max environment.

We all need a ballroom of our own where we can feel secure. A chicken in every pot and a ballroom on every house is my campaign promise. Michael Tracy also talking about speaking, we're being safe. Did you guys see this little side plot that happened with Michael Tracy? Which one, the one where he showed up to Virginia, Jeffries, Memorial, the one he picked a fight with Jim Acosta. Jim Acosta and Juliana. Oh, now I'm not remembering her last name.

Olivia Giuliana. Olivia Giuliana. Yeah, yeah. So apparently Michael Tracy, who I've had on to talk about Epstein stuff, and he's picking the fights too. So it's a big security weekend for all the important political parties. I'm going to tell you, we got Jazz Fest here in New Orleans. So I was partying on Saturday night and checked out.

We had other bulwark people who were, you know, on duty. and so, you know, I didn't, it was kind of a downer to be receiving texts and getting content while I was, you know, drinking, watching trombone shorthy about what was happening. But after I was like a little drunk and then people started sending me the Michael Tracy like come and meet me outside the Hampton Inn. That was really enjoyable. And I did take a little break from the music just to kind of watch him demand that Jim Acosta meet him outside the Hampton in and send the Hampton in address. the photo of the Hampton Inn in case you wanted to get it wrong. I feel like we were really denied a good brawl in the Hampton Inn like breakfast area. We had Dana White at the Hilton.

Apparently they're planning some sort of UFC event on the White House. I just don't know why we wouldn't involve Michael Tracy in that, either with Olivia Giuliana or Jim Acosta. Now, was he trying to physically fight Olivia Giuliana as well? Yes. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting.

It's a, it's kind of like, who's the guy that Jim Carrey played, the biopic, the Andy, oh, Andy Kaufman. It's very Andy Kaufman like, yeah. Well, Tim, I'm curious. I mean, given your experience of how you learned about this news, I had a similar experience where I think after the first assassination attempt on Trump, I was freaking out. I was like, oh, my God, what does our country come to?

And this is going to, you know, surge him in the polls and like, just, just kind of having a breakdown. And after this one, I think after 12 hours, I was like, yeah, you know, like, it happened again. And it's weird to think of it as like this casual sort of brushed off news event, which should in any other case dominate a news cycle for maybe a whole year. So like, how are you viewing this as like, you know, what is this the third? I don't, yeah, I don't think you have to feel guilty about that. I'm not obviously, it's horrible that someone was trying to shoot up the White House correspondent sitter. and you can't give any anything but just total condemnation. Does somebody turn to do it?

Like, I know it kind of feels weird to say this, but like crazy people try to kill the president, like not irregularly. I mean, it has felt like it was happen more with Trump. And like the situation in Butler, I think, was a category difference. I mean, like literally, had he not moved his head who had been killed. And that was not something that would have happened, I guess, like Reagan didn't die. But that Reagan was the last time somebody got actually hit by. a bullet but like 13 i think of the last 15 presidents have had an assassination tip against him george ford had two in 17 days nobody talks about that anymore it's not like oh that was a big

historical inflection point the two times gerald ford had an assassination tips against him so i think that's kind of why you're feeling that way and also he didn't really get close like i think that there was a moment that night where you know just it was a dramatic scene right like it's on camera It's live. You see him getting, you know, rushed out of there. You see all the journalists hiding under the tables. And it's like, it feels like really, you know, dramatic and serious. But then, like, you learn that, and I've been to that dinner, it's a, the hill, it's down the escalator at the Hilton.

So if you go into the Hinkley Hilton in D.C., you kind of have to go around a corner and then down an escalator and then through a long hallway. He didn't even make it to the floor. You know, like you so he wasn't even, he wasn't even on the same floor as Trump. So, like, Donald Trump was very far away from being shot this time. But not Wolf Blitzer. Yeah. In theory, I don't know. There could have been other people that were, like, late for the dinner,

going down the hallway. They might have been closer to that encounter. So, like, in that way, like, this is more similar to, like, when a crazy person tries to jump the fence at the White House or whatever, you know, than, like, what happened in Butler. Yeah. And I bet there's a lot of attempts that we just never hear about because they're nipped in the bud, you know, like before anyone even gets close to 100 meters from the house.

the president. But I think what's interesting to me is in the same way Republicans were trying to capitalize off of this event back in last year, it's the same kind of thing happening now where you see, hey, this is the left's fault. Look at how they're talking about the president. And if anything, I'm looking at this and saying, like, are we supposed to not accurately describe how we're viewing the most negative aspects of this administration because a crazy person might capitalize off of it? And also, how much weight does that really hold when you've got your party calling us, you know, the party of pedophiles. You've got, you know, Donald Trump calling for the execution of his political opponents. Like, it just all rings so hollow now for the third or fourth

or six times. Can I pause you right there real quick? I'm so sorry to do this, but like, I want to channel this question through the CNN question that Dana. Did you guys see this? She asks, Raskin, I think, do you feel anything about the heated rhetoric that your side is using? And then Raskin's like, well, what do you mean? And she's like, well, how you call him terrible? It's such a joke that we live in this world where people are being called out for saying accurate things about the terrible job

that the president, a lot of the president is doing. And then Raskin kind of backs down. And he says like, well, I don't have anything personally against the president. I just hate his policies. So then I was like, you don't? I have a lot personal against the president. And that's totally fine, by the way.

And it's totally fine to make level personal attacks on him. It is so weird for me on multiple levels, like people whose business it is to exercise free speech and make arguments, like always immediately after something bad like this goes to, well, it's maybe our words were the problem. You know, maybe we just used a phrase that was a little too hot. And it's like, I just, there isn't any evidence for that, really. I had somebody going after me today some daily wire person who's like condemn Hassan Piker

he said that whatever Rick Scott deserves I don't know if I can know what he said about Rick Scott but you know something violent happened against him and I was like the shooter like was on blue sky shitting on Hassan Piker like three days ago so how was it Hassan Piker's fault

then he went crazy and tried to shoot the Trump Trump it's like you know words are not violence. And I bristled at this when it was like really hot on the left for a while, the college can't, you know, the cancel culture stuff. We need safe spaces. You know, people can't hear, you know, from speakers that they think are too aggressive. And it's just like, we should be able to live in a vibrant society where people call each other dicks and, you know, say that you're an asshole or you're corrupt or you're a pedophile, cover-upper, or whatever. Like, if it's appropriate, if it's true, if it's appropriate, if it's appropriate,

true, you know, or if it could be true. Like, people should be able to make those arguments, and that's fine. That has nothing to do with a gunman shooting at somebody. And I think part of this I do think is it's like, we're so fucked in the guns. Like, they're just, the proliferation of guns in the country is so great that it's like, people are kind of bored with talking about that after shootings as a problem. You know, I was going back to Butler. And immediately we did this after Butler and everybody's like, was it the rhetoric?

I'm like, this is like a weirdo kid. I don't think he was watching Meet the Press. I don't think it was to meet the press rhetoric that was a problem. Wasn't Jamie Raskin. Yeah, it wasn't Jamie Raskin. And then like on the way. Yeah, on the way to shoot Trump, he stopped. I used to know what the store was.

I forget. But he stomped at like some big box store and bought bullets like on the way. And I was like, isn't that actually a bigger problem? Like, shouldn't we have a waiting period for buying a certain number of bullets? Like, it seems like, you know, if we're going to try to stop this, that would have been a more efficient response than, you know, saying maybe the Democrats should should not say such mean things about Mr. Trump, you know, so like the whole thing is really, is really dumb as far as I'm concerned.

Apropos of your, you know, reply guys, just a friend of the show and actually founder of Live and Learn. Josiah asks, Tim, are you going to talk to Megan Boscham of the Daily Wire because she's camped out in your replies? And he also is asking me if I'm going to go fight Michael Tracy. But yeah, I mean, what is this beef with, is it? it specifically that she thinks that you're enabling someone who's enabling a shooter? I don't even know how this connection is being.

I don't know. Yeah. It all started because she was like, the bulwark is responsible for this because you said people shouldn't even show up to the dinner. And I was like, yeah, I said people shouldn't show up to the dinner. Not that they should shoot up to dinner. Those are two like, those are two very different things. The opposite.

Or to shoot dinner, you have to arrive. Yeah. Maybe she thought you were like warning like, hey, guys, don't go to school tomorrow, you know, sort of thing. A baby brain. Yeah. And so I don't know. No, I was not.

And then she goes through my podcast history and it's like, oh, one time you said Luigi was hot. And so this is your fault. And I'm like, Luigi was hot. It's hot. It's horrible. And like he should go to jail for life. Like this, like adults do not have, you know, I should not struggle to like navigate, you

know, complex assessments of people. People can be hot and terrible, you know. Like Donald Trump can be terrible and you not want to kill him. So I don't. Are you saying Trump is hot? I'm not. He looks horrible without the orange. The orange looks bad, but if you see without the one looks horrible.

So anyway, I don't think I... Maybe I would go debate her if they wanted to have me on the daily wire. But I'm not going to take some like C-list right-wing media person and bring them onto the bulwark just because they're obsessed with me. That feels like that's setting a bad precedent. You're enabling the reply guy behavior. That's apparently how they're going to bait you into media. appearances. I don't think that what you were doing was a cryptic message. The award for

cryptic message and the most unfortunate statement goes to Carolyn Leavitt, where I forget what it was exactly. Something like shots will be fired tonight. Cots will be fired tonight. It's up there with a, oh, go ahead and punch, sorry. Well, I was going to say, in a time where America is just like peak conspiracy brain, that was just the most unfortunate sequence of words she could have put together for that moment. Also, the Kimmel joke was just like really awfully timed. trying to exploit that maximally right now. But I think, like, I think it is worth pointing out that, you know, every time some kind of event like this happens, and I agree with Tim, like all political

violence is like pretty horrible for the like social fabric and everything. But every single time, they, they very transparently and cynically try to, you know, exploit these kinds of events for some kind of boost in the polls or some kind of political benefit. And it never works. like, you know, Charlie Kirk was largely kind of like out of the news, maybe like a week or two later. Trump, I think, only got a boost of two or three points after Butler and that evaporated. That's an important two points. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how much would help them.

I mean, he only won by two points. Oh, no, no, that's true. Yeah, yeah. No, but I'm saying like when you track the polls, like he went up like a few points and then went right back down. But, you know, it is kind of pathetic and sad that these guys can't even manage to. you know, cultivate sympathy from voters after events like these. Yeah.

Yeah. Who is the voter that's going to change their mind about Donald Trump because of a shooting attempt, though? Like, you know, people have other concerns that they're focused on. And you can understand sympathy assessment in the poll. Somebody calls you three days afterwards.

You don't feel like you don't want to be a dick or whatever. Say you have an unfavorable view of the person that was just shot. But I just don't think it's going to fundamentally change people's perspectives. which is why one of my other things, I feel like if I'm on the Lib and Learn Pod, I should rant about the libs a little bit. One of the other things that annoys me about the discourse this weekend is like the false flag nonsense.

People are like, he did this. He did this because of Iran and his polls were flagging. And I was like, well, no, that wouldn't work. Like, that's not going to work. And number two, he just was about to enjoy like this gift that for some reason, the DC journalist gave him, which was to allow him in front of cameras to shit on them for an hour and a half. Why would he do the false flag attack right before that? I would think that he would have done it after.

After he would have had a chance to get his, you know, get a couple of shots off. No pun intended. But I just, the whole thing is dumb. I ran, we did a rant about this on the podcast today. And I have inboxes full of listeners being like, are you sure it seems fishy? There's some things that seem fishy. But you can't put anything past Trump. And I'm like, well, yeah, I guess you can't put anything past Trump.

But these guys also haven't demonstrated like a lot of deftness in hiding their behavior. Yeah. You know what you want about Trump. But like all of his malfeasance is pretty much right out there in the open. Like he's not a big secret keeper. And I just. Ash Patel's getting like absolutely hammered. And we're getting like leaks about it.

And drunk or like he's getting flat. No, I mean, he's getting. He's getting wasted all the time. Apparently, he's drinking a lot. And I actually agree with you, Tim. I think one saving grace, perhaps, for the libs is the administration really has lost all credibility to say anything factual. You know, their relationship with the truth is ephemeral at best. That said, there's like no evidence to suggest that this was a false flag.

It really does feel, though, with avon of AI, with the right wing all embracing like the Candace Owen style conspiracy theory, you know, sloth. for a better word it does feel sometimes that there's like no limit to what people are allowed to allege without evidence yeah I mean like none of these conspiracy theories um survive like past a few questions like it's all the people of messaging me that are like well maybe they recruited a disgrunt old guy and like he was like again he was posting on blue sky about will stancel like last week like you know, this is all part of an elaborate plot. Like this was a CIA thing. They recruited them and they're like, okay, your cover stories,

you're going to go into Blue Sky for four years, you know, and post-lib slop. And like, then you're going to go try to kill Trump. And we're going to tackle you before you can do it. And you're going to go to jail for life. Like,

why would he sign up for that? Like, that is a more compelling theory than like, like, a guy went fucking kind of crazy and we have too many guns in this country. And, like, he tried to do something nuts. I just, that seems like a much more, you know, much, you know, much, much more likely from an Occam's Razor standpoint.

Like the Butler thing that people always talk about his ear and stuff. Like, we have the photos from the New York Times guy. They're unbelievable photos right underneath them. They take the picture and it's like a, you know, kind of rapid fire, like multi-click, click, click, click. And you can see like Trump turn his head. Then you see him put his hand up. And then you see him put his hand to his eat. and then you see him go down

and then a guy dies and they all go to the hospital and nurses and doctors see them all these people are in on the cover up like the nurse at the Butler Hospital that did the intake on Trump was part of the CIA plot to do this

these guys can't even get the fucking straight of where it's open they can't do anything like they're like they're totally incompetent they haven't arrested a single one of their political enemies and yet they pulled that I don't know It stretches credulity. They have to be so competent that they can pull off a multi-year fall guy, like fake assassination attempt, but also that no one leaks this.

And that just screams 2020 election fraud claims. It's like you are the people that are able to rail against these people for these insane claims that rely on affidavits from people who, you know, as soon as you put them under any scrutiny, they completely fall apart in front of a judge. And now you're saying that like this insane thing is happening on the other side. Like you have to understand that. and maybe just some things are going to be capitalized and like trying to make the left look bad. And that has nothing to do with whether or not they faked it. They're always going to try to capitalize. I follow like a decent like spectrum of people ideologically.

And pretty consistently I see conspiracy theories on the timeline from, you know, folks on my side of the aisle or thereabouts. I would say like it's probably a lot more intense with right wingers. I mean, it is like a lot more intense and there's more of them doing it. But, you know, there's a lot of people on the left that are prone to conspiracies. You know, Kaikolinsky is out here just like day one, just pumping out content, you know, just asking questions about things not adding up. Never let a good crisis go to waste. Okay, you doubters.

It might be the case that they didn't plan this specifically to happen. But maybe they're going to use it as their right stock fire to implement a horrific policy agenda like building the ballroom. White House. And that's what I found like so Because in the previous actual successful Assassination of Charlie Kirk They were talking about like Oh we're gonna go after every leftist group

All these Democrats We're gonna target all of their like institutions None of that shit happened But this time they're really Just the limit of their ambition Is building this fucking ballroom And justifying it to the public So I think it's a missed opportunity for them perhaps

But to be honest I don't really think it's that big like the American people like Tim said, care about other stuff. But it was, I think, fascinating to see Ashley Sinclair talk about how this unified messaging would happen in these chat groups.

And then everyone is on the same page like minutes after it happens to talk about the fucking ballroom. She is spilling some quality tea on the timeline. She spilled some tea today about Corey Mills. Is that his name? Republican representatives from Florida. Some crazy stuff.

Yeah. Well, Tim, you are a Republican and you worked in a campaign. Oh, you're not? You don't identify that way anymore? No, I wrote an article about leaving in the period between Trump losing in 2020 and January 6th when everyone was going along with the stop-the-steel nonsense, except for like Liz Cheney and Adam and Mitt Romney. I was like, this is over.

I don't want to be part of the party anymore. But anyway, I was until 2020. Fair enough. Excuse my mistake. What I was going to ask is you worked on campaigns in like the early 2000s for Republicans. And I wanted to know your perspective like on. this dissemination of information through pundits or any sort of spokespeople, obviously it didn't exist to the same extent because we just didn't have phones

and the internet to the same level. But was there this media apparatus, these talking points being kind of spread out? Or like, can you speak to that a little bit? Yeah, I mean, the degree of cultishness that they have and like the like kind of the NPC quality of some of these like big MAGA accounts,

I think is a category difference from what we have seen in the, past. I mean, I, look, I, when I was the R&C, when I was a Jeb, you know, we had lists of people that we'd contact and that we'd try to seed stuff with, but, um, a lot of times they wouldn't do what I wanted. It's like, like usually people like, especially back then, like journalists, even if they were bloggers had at least like a minimum level of dignity, you know, and would like, maybe post something kind of like what I'd ask. or if it was really good, they would flag it. You know, there were some that didn't.

And the process that I used to use was, you know, pick one of the more pliable Republican blogger hacks and, like, have them write something and then send that link around to everybody and maybe some of them would tweet it. But I do think that the, like, and Elon incentivizes this now, like a big change is now with an act.

You got, like, they're monetized, right? you're being incentivized to just post the Trump slop. You know what I mean? Like if you get a text from whoever is the point person in the White House that's like, hey, ballroom, you know, you're better, best suited to just go ahead and do that so you can get all the retweets. It's not even just the like, you know, the usual suspects who have the direct lines of connection. I know that they just added this location feature and you see, oh, here's like all the Indian and Malaysian and offshore accounts that are just capitalizing off of like this gets clicks,

this causes people to be angry, just blow it up and throw it out there. So yeah, it's very transparent how it's really not about anything, but can I get this to go viral because I know it'll make people angry and, yeah. Tim, I want to dive into your politics a little bit more if you don't mind. Yeah, so we've got a ton of discourse in our spaces in recent kind of weeks. Some of it has related to Hassan, but it's more been about like a bigger conversation about the future of the Democratic Party. You're obviously like a Republican defector. And so I'm curious to know what you think should be the playbook for Democrats in the short term to sort of maximize electoral wins and also like what you personally want to see and do those things overlap. Yeah, can I just say

one of the on just Nissan briefly? When I engaged in that discourse very early, which in retrospect was maybe a mistake because I, who the house? the hell did I know that it's all everybody would want to talk about for weeks. But one of the points I made when I first engaged with it is that like the establishment Republicans or excuse me, the establishment Democrats and talking about a Freudian slip. The establishment Democrats who are going after him were like stepping on a big rake. Like this was a massive cell phone like putting out a memo that's like people shouldn't talk to Hassan is going to absolutely backfire on them.

and the base or like the active democratic voter does not want that and you know there's some category of people to do but if anything it will end up empowering him more to like as an anti-establishment figure who's fighting them because that's what people are looking for right now look at grand platiner and Janet Mills and that's exactly what's happened and it was really dumb of the third way to do it just as a strategic matter Um, my, my thinking, um, and I feel like I, I have good credibility on this because like when I'm about to suggest the Democrats do goes against like what my personal political preference would be. You know, if I could wave a magic wand to make somebody president, I would want like Jared Polis or somebody like that who has no, no viability as a national figure. Um, but I think that, uh, the Democrats need to put forth a, a candidate. I guess we're doing this. 2028 context, but even in statewide candidates and federal level, who has some distance from the Clinton-Biden-Harris trium Brit. And like they need some distance from them and it needs to be like comprehensible and understandable to people to dumb-dums, like what the difference is. And I think probably it is a little bit more economic populism. What that exactly looks like, I think is up to the person.

but mostly it is that they need to offer a critique of the Democratic Party establishment for being too cozy with corporate interests and saying that they're going to fight it at some level. Some of those proposals will be very stupid, but there are some that are good, and I think that the framing is more important than the actual policies. I imagine you vibe a little bit with Tolariko then, right? Because he's leaning into some populism, but he's not fully committing in the same way that Platner is. I do, I do vibe a little bit with Talarico. I think that then foreign policy, they need to be very clearly anti the stupid war bluntly and clearly not like, well, the Ayatollah was bad. And, you know, this doesn't mean they need to be isolationist,

but they need to say, hey, you guys are heard, you thought Trump was going to be anti-war. You're betrayed by him. We are, you can trust us. Like, we're not going to get into stupid Middle East wars. It doesn't mean we're isolationists. We support our allies in Europe. We're to try to mend fences with the countries on amend fences with us, but no more stupid wars. We're not, we're going to get us the hell out of it. I think they should do that. And I think it would probably be beneficial for the Democrats to try to demonstrate some type of distance from their past to the, like those two are kind of moves to the left.

I'd say, move to the right, just slightly on either immigration or public safety, like demonstrating that there's like some feeling of, hey, things got a little out of control with the far left prosecutors in San Francisco in some of these places. And we need to make sure that violent criminals are put behind bars and that we need to sure as shit, need to make sure that violent illegal immigrant criminals are behind the bars are sent home. And that doesn't mean becoming like bigoted or nativist,

but just demonstrating that there's like a little bit of a pivot from where things were. I think that combination is probably the sweet spot for them. That'd be why. In your view, who's the most posed to do this that's on the playing field right now? Because so many of the current candidates I see are either linked. I mean, Harris might run again to some of these things that you need to say, we need to distance ourselves from. And some of them... She's a thousand percent going to run.

Right. A thousand percent. Yeah. And so, like, yeah, who is, like, then able to both distance themselves and make these shifts that you're... I think it's tough. I think it's pretty concerning, you know, because the answer is to that question is, going to people that haven't really been around. I mean, one of that is, okay, maybe one of these guys wins a surprise Senate race

and just runs again immediately, like for president. I know there'll be a lot of push against that, but that could be Tala Rico, could be Plattenor. The people find that crazy, but I don't. I mean, Obama and Trump were both crazy, and they're the last people to win twice. And then, you know, maybe more reasonable to that would be somebody like a Westmore or one of the two Georgia senators,

Assoff and Warnock, both kind of demonstrated they've won in the south in a swing state. Those are kind of the names to come to mind. I don't, nobody's really knocking my socks off right now on this front. I like Pete personally. Again, I think if this was like a wave to magic wand

and let Tim have somebody he likes, like I would be totally happy with Pete. I just, if the Democrats' biggest prize, problem is working class men. I don't know. I just think a gay polyglot is like a tough pitch. What the fuck is a polyglot? What is that? Somebody who speaks a lot of languages. Exactly. Yeah. I think that he would use a lot of words that they wouldn't know. And so John Kerry coded. Yeah. Maybe that's wrong. Pete has, Pete has exceeded my expectations at every step of the way politically. So I don't know. If he ever becomes president, I feel like he would have to be VP first and then, you know, following like a popular Democratic presidency that could segue into that. But it's hard to see just him winning the primary in 2020.

Yeah, I don't think it's a zero percent chance, but it's a little tough. Yeah. I actually see a connection between what you just said about Pete and your thoughts on Hassan, namely that it's not necessarily the case that your personal preferences ideologically, personally, are going to. to determine what you think is most politically useful, such as appearing on people's shows with whom you disagree tremendously, or, you know, picking a candidate that perhaps you even differ with greatly because of their ability to win. So talk us through that sort of practical, pragmatic sense of your politics. Yeah, there's only two parties, you know. And if I was a podcaster in a European country, where they,

there's like kind of a, you know, the FDP in Germany or something, where there's like a social left party and like fiscally kind of conservative party. Like I would go all in for the party that most matches me. Like we have two parties and one of them is a right-wing authoritarian party, which is a grave threat to the country right now. And so as far as I'm concerned, the best thing to do is, you know, try to encourage and advocate for an alternative to that.

that can be successful. And I think more than just being successful that can, like, wipe that out. You know, I always go back to Biden 2020 the morning after, like, I was sad. I was very sad. Because I didn't know exactly how bad it was going to get ahead, but I knew that, like, this wasn't over.

Like, that we needed to beat him way more. Like, that was too close. And that either he would reemerge or some facsimile of him would emerge and that we were going to be in this for a bit. And you didn't warn us about January. 6 that was very selfish of you too yeah sorry like you knew it was going to happen yeah i didn't know exactly though i did i kind of did i i did a lot of alarm sounding uh and so my never trump or friends who are on the more

conservative side were like you guys are ring alarm as and i was like now and i will tell you on our bulwark live stream the night of january 6th so i like to dunk in my colleagues over them many of them were talking about how like trump was over and i was like by valentine's day these guys are going to come back around from the 14th and I was wrong. I was sooner. Like we didn't even get through January before those guys came back around done him. So anyway, as soon as McCarthy took that photo op with him, I was like, oh now. I was like, oh now, they're still behind him. This is not good. So because of that threat, I just think it's important to be practical. And I don't, I kind of laugh. I was like, if you graded like how close a candidate to me was from like zero to 100,

like McCain-Obama, like both of them were like decently close to me. You know, like, I, like, in various ways. Like, they weren't too far apart from each other. And both of them were way closer to me than, like, Trump and Harris. Or, you know, I mean, like, just, just if you're, like, doing a checklist of, like, policies. And I just, I didn't know how good I had it back in 2008. I was kind of like, I don't really like, you know what I mean? I really think I like, do you have in that much?

And so it's like, I just, I have just accepted that, like, we're going to go through a period where there's not going to be a, a like very Tim coded candidate ideologically. And like, that's fine. Like, we're in a democratic system. And like, there are only two options. And, you know, maybe an outside person can emerge sometime. It's not going to be this next time. And, you know, and so I just think it's important to, like,

give honest analysis of that. And also, I give honest advice based on that. Like, for me to come on and be like, you know what people, you know what they should really do is we should have a Tim Miller-coded candidates, who's for open borders. and gay supremacy red tape cutting that'd be awesome

if there was a majority of the country that was for that but like I just don't I don't think there is well you're talking about it like it's a like an arranged marriage like look I'm not happy about it but this is what's what's best for the families

and then the dowry is so big is that not wrong though no it's not kind of wrong I mean I mean you know I know some people are they get politics and they get very I don't know, starry-eyed about it. And like it should make, you know, I feel like

a politician should make me sing. And I should be very passionate about advancing my ideals. Like, I think all that's nice and stuff. I just, I'm just more practical about it all. You're speaking my language, Tim. I have to ask, though, because this is

kind of an extension of this is the point of the coalition and who's in the 10 and who's helping us. And like, to me, quite obviously you are, right? Like, you are fundamentally aligned with fighting Trump and the fascist wave that's happening right now, but it's clear that at a certain point, as the Overton window shifts, you will be opposed to the liberal candidate. Now, you won't be like, you know, tearing them down and backstabbing or doing some crazy Gen 6 stuff, but you will be saying, hey, like, this isn't who I want.

This person is not my politics. So at what point, I guess this is idealistic because like, oh, God, what a world I would love to live in where we have to worry about whether or not Tim Miller's not on our side instead of the fascists. But at what point do the people that are currently in the coalition. The never Trumpers, the super far leftists. At what point are we supposed to say, okay, and now we're opposed? Is it as soon as now both parties have a candidate and they can separate from that tent or is it before that? Yeah, and I think that there'll be obviously some disagreements in 2028, but I like, you know, assuming it's J.D. Vance or Tucker or Trump again. I think people are discounting that he runs again. Or Trump Jr. Like, I'll be for whoever.

I did an interview back in like when Bernie was winning in 2020 where I said where the interviewer was like well who'd you be for in Bernie and Trump and I was like Bernie and then I'm like really? I was like yeah I'll be for I mean I I don't want it to be Bernie I could rather be someone else and I ended up being Biden and and I kind of hate Biden now so you know I don't know maybe we've been better off with Bernie what the hell do I know

but like I just it's not a close choice against these guys I mean they're trying to turn us into a right wing autocracy it's It is, like, it is completely unacceptable. It's the worst possible option. Like, we can lower the marginal tax rates again. Bernie raises them too high. Like, that's not, I don't know. Like, I understand how if you're a corporate business owner

is worried about, you know, the narrow financial interests of your company, that might have, that might be different. But, like, that's not me. I'm happy to pay a little bit more in taxes. That's the only thing that a Bernie administration would do to me. Now, he's going to be too old to run next time. So I just, like, obviously there'll be. arguments and everybody will be making a case what they think is best during a 2028 primary.

But I don't really see a path towards like me feeling passionately against the Democratic candidate until like the Republican side is defeated. I know or obviously if a Democrat is a specifically bad thing. You know what I mean? Like there's I mean there's obviously uniquely corrupt people. Like endorse RFK Jr. like Jared Polis or like pardon people who. Can we get so I want to talk about that real quick because there are there's a kind of centristy or more I don't know enlightened candidate that is trying to paint themselves as being above the fray in a way

I'm thinking people like Jared Polis or John Federman who's willing to say oh my party's a little bit crazy here it seems that no one is other than perhaps some Republicans no one in the Democratic coalition is buying the Federman act this enlightened centrist act where there's some kind of synthesis is trying to be made with MAGA ideology. I kind of agree with the base on that. I don't think that MAGA is something that we create a synthesis or a dialectic with. But why is it the case that you give a pass to Polis on the RFK stuff on the pardon? Fair question.

I'm dispositionally opposite almost of Jared Polis. I don't know. We text. I text and shit talk him over stuff when I disagree with something that he says. Like, I don't, his tweets are not particularly great. I was more just, I was speaking like more about the way that he's governed Colorado. That it was like really good. I mean, you know, and there are certain things that like state level legislative, you know,

compromises that are that are kind of needed. I don't know. There's some crazy, you know, in Colorado. For example, you know, there's a lot of natural gas pipelines and that kind of stuff. There's some left sides of the side of the party that wanted to like totally shut all that down and Polis kind of brought people to a compromise position. That's one kind of example of that. I thought he was pretty good on COVID was an example. I thought that there was a lot of left crazy stuff. I mean, at fucking my neighborhood in Oakland, California, before I moved to New Orleans,

they had the parks boarded up. They had the fucking parks boarded up in the basketball court. Like, I couldn't take my kid to the damn playground, which was moronic. And like, Polis was doing the policy that everybody wanted, which was, you know, you have used to rules around masking and distancing initially, we get the vaccine, then people can do whatever the hell they want. And they're pro-vaccine, he didn't advance vaccine disinformation. So, you know, the economy's doing good in Colorado. He's pro-immigrant. So I was more speaking about that.

I do, I share your aversion to kind of this centrist above the fray, you know, attitude. And like, I'm dying for, I'm dying for like a centrist that has some, you know, blood in their teeth. Not literally. that's not as willing to just like really fucking fight and gna and um and you know maybe they'll show up sometime we'll see how do you feel about jeffreys came out today and said that they're not focused on impeachment i think that there's like an obvious logic there you don't want to galvanize the opposition and fire them up to like defend their president especially when we have some slam dunk issues like iran and the economy but i imagine that's going to piss off a lot of the base i mean that's something

that comes up in this podcast a lot to kind of disconnect between the Democratic voter base and, you know, the more political center and just how that's, that gulf is sort of widening. And it seems like the political, the party base is, is demanding, you know, political blood, not real blood, but like they want fighters like you're talking about. Do you have thoughts on the Jeffrey's impeachment thing? Yeah. I'm, I'm pretty torn about impeachment as a question, just for the reason of like, if you're going to use it as a vehicle to investigate various, things, then great.

If you can do the investigations without the impeachment vehicle, I think that there's an argument for that. You know, impeachment is a political question, really, fundamentally. Say more about that. What do you mean? Well, it's like, I mean,

there are some people look at it, like George Conway is on the other side of me from this, right? He sees impeachment as a legal question. Has he committed impeachful acts, and so we should impeach him. And there's a logic to that, right? But, like, in reality, in the real world, impeachment is a political question because it's like, you know, it's not a legal question. This isn't a court of law.

And if we can impeach him but can't convict him, then what is it? It's kind of just no different than a sternly worded letter, you know, that has like a historical stamp on it. It's like you've been impeached. And to me, I think the most important thing that the Democrats have to do when they take back power and I'm obsessed with this is as just absolutely. max out on oversight and investigations. Like the amount of corruption that he has undergone in this two years is just beyond people's imagination. And if you look at the four years, everybody clicks on Merrick Garland.

But I just think that the oversight, you know, they decided that when the Democrats took the House back during the Biden years, they decided to stop investigating Trump and what had happened before. And I just like did not understand that. I wanted the, I wanted a, this is where my like fighting moderate person that I want to emerge as like I want a Benga, I want a Democratic trade gouty. I want a Democratic tragauly. I want 30 bengazi hearings. I want 30 hearings on the crypto corruption and 30 hearings on the business company, the companies that Don Jr. and Eric are on the board of that are giving government

contracts and on every, they're for sure going to do that. They're for sure going to do that. They're going to do it well. They did that during the first term. I mean, like when they took back the House. I mean, they were pretty aggressive in terms of not. There's nothing compared to Benghazi and Hillary's laptop emails. Like, who did a better job? That them are the Democratic oversight folks. I have some

evidence, the Epstein thing they've been good on. Shout out to Robert Garcia, the Epstein thing they've been good on. But I just, they need to me, that is like the key. And if you do that through impeachment, then that's, I'm okay with that. You're open to impeachment, in other words, as a vehicle for oversight.

I kind of see that there's an ability to reconcile your and Conway's view. I'm a lawyer, so I initially think that as a threshold, as a necessary condition for any impeachment proceeding, there ought to be at least some legal, lawful basis to charge them with impeachment. But obviously, it's resolved by the political branch of Congress in the first case of the House of actually impeaching and then the Senate. And I think that everything the Democrats should be doing, assuming that they take the House

and even if they get a bare majority in the Senate, should be trying to bog this administration down. And oversight is one way that you do it. Subpoenaing and getting information is another way that you do it. Look at how we're able to manage people's social media feeds, manage the discourse through revelations of information. And we're going to just have way more access to that when we have subpoena power, et cetera.

And he deserves to be impeached. And so I'm glad that you're not against it. One reason why I think the base gets frustrated. And here is me, Hutch is like the last samurai for Chuck Schumer and I'm over here trying to channel. Hey, I'm just joking. I'm fucking a bit.

It's no one. I think he should retire for the good of the party. I think he should. I'll samurai for Hakeem Jeffries for you in a second after this. Okay. The final thought on it is we just want someone to reflect back the anger, the passion and the feeling of that some members of our Congress are not taking it super serious and are kind of just like going along, get along.

and doing the same kind of thing that a lot of the institutions were doing in the first few weeks of Trump 2.0. Was that about your self-actualization or is that about? No, it is partly, I think, psychological and partly about actualization. But I also think that it's an indicator that they get it. It's an indicator that they're on the right path, right? Like these votes on the budget or whatever or these votes on Israel stuff, like you're not going to able to stop the funding to Israel. you're not going to pass a war powers resolution in this Congress. But why do people care when there's defectors?

Why do people care when Democrats sometimes even like sign on to a Republican proposal that it's going to pass anyway? It's because it shows or doesn't show, crucially, that they get it. And that if they were getting power, they would take the right approach. And so that's what I think is the concern for people like me is it's not necessarily the thing itself, but one, we want people to seem like they're fighting. Like what is Shrey Gowdy doing in your example? Trey Gowdy is totally ineffectual at actually showing that Hillary Clinton did anything criminal, but he's able to get energy.

He's able to get good optics. That's a tangible win. And then also it's confidence in the future that you'll be able to do the right thing. Yeah. I understand that having those concerns about the Democratic leadership. And Chuck, I can't samurai for Chuck. I'm sorry. You're going to do that.

But on the Hakee side, you're never, I'm going to say this. It's like, I don't think anybody's ever going to really vibe with Hakeem. What did, what did Chris Matthews say about Obama? He gives him, he gives me a thrill up my leg. I just, I don't know, he's corny. He's a little corny. And he just doesn't, even when he is mad, I don't know. I'm not feeling it, right?

And so unlike a performance, W.W.E. Figure skate judging kind of thing. Like, Hakeem's not going to have it. I don't think. But, I mean, the two shutdowns, were like pretty crazy. And like the first shutdown was over nothing, basically. And then he was like, we're going to make it over the healthcare extensions, okay,

which they know they're never going to get. And we're going to inject this topic into the conversation. And we're going to do it and succeed. And they all unified. They shut down the government. They pointed out the fact that your health care premiums are going up. It's Republicans' fault. And then when the moment came, you know, they got the off ramp.

Most people thought that was a failure. I thought that was a huge win. Then this next shutdown is still going. People aren't even talking about it anymore, but we're still not funding ICE and CBP. That's a good. That's, and they're in the minority. Like, that's real.

Like, they're in the minority. They got the Epstein files released, not all of them, but like some, like they got Epstein back into the news. And to me, if I look at the House Democrats right now, and then obviously they were behind the scenes pushing what was happening in Virginia, California to a lesser extent,

but these redistricting fights, that has been a huge win. So I don't know. I mean, I don't know what more like the base wants. Like, what do people want? Like, they're in the minority and they've, they've, I think, demonstrated some real fight, particularly on the house side, have some wins out of it. I'm being, you know, that's, that's my kind of tepid defense of the issue. I'm with you, Tim. I share your perspective. And I think like, yeah, Piscoe's going to disagree here in a second. But like, but I think like the tension and the anger that exists right now between the base. and the party, or more specifically the party leadership, I think that's kind of more or less baked in until we get the gavel back in January. And it's not going to completely fix all that anger, but that gavel will enable the Democrats

to actually do things with that institutional power. You talked about that vital oversight role. And I think once the base sees those kinds of actions, then they'll feel better about it. But there are a lot of people right now, you know, prominent voices on the left that are expressing frustration about things that the Democrats can't really stop.

Like they just, like when you're the party out of power, you just, and they have the votes to pass things, the party that's in power, you really can't do much. You have these budget shutdown fights, and that's kind of it. And so, yeah, hodge, real quick, Josiah wants you to ask Tim if he knows what green lantern theory of politics.

He also wants Peaceco to ask Tim what his favorite color is yes or no, but you can do that if you want Peace go. Yeah, do you know what the Green Lantern theory of politics is? I'm not off the top of my head. What is it? Yeah, okay. It's just, it's a whole thing. Ezra Klein wrote an article in 2014, and it's basically a theory of politics that

suggests that presidents through either sheer force of will or charisma can basically like force the Congress to give them anything they want. And so any president that doesn't meet that standard, which is like every president. But mostly it's to shit talk about Democrats. It's like a way to suggest that because Biden couldn't do what like LBJ could do. That means it was like a, you know, whatever. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, no, that is similar to kind of just like get shit down,

like the idea that, like, you can just do things. I guess it's more of the updated version of the Green Lantern theory of politics that you can just do things, theory. And I'm for, I'm sympathetic to that. I guess my point is, as just a media commentary. And I'll be interested in Piscoe, and, and Soys pushback on this. But, uh, I, there's a whole eco, there's like two entire ecosystems out there that are built around talking about how Democrats are pussies.

and like there's not a lot of air cover for people. There's really three ecosystems, right? Like the mainstream media has to like knock Democrats from time to time to feel like they're being even. The right-wing media exists to tear Democrats down. And there's this huge left-wing media ecosystem that's all about how the Democratic establishment sucks. And so it's like, I don't, you know, I just don't kind of know what all these people want exactly from Like you see Zohr, like just using Zoran as a counter example, like, Zoran will go up there and they'll be like, hey, our new grocery store is going to be here in 2009. And everybody's like, you know what I mean?

Or like he'll put up like a look at this meme. Like we did a meme about how the roads are going to fill the holes. We did a gay joke. We did a fill the holes meme about potholes. And like the last wing media is like, ah! And it's like, and then meanwhile, and it's like, how King Jeffries gets the Epstein files out. there and he's like, what are you doing, Hakeem? He's like, why can't you be more like Zoron? He's filling the holes. I just think that there's like a little bit of that. And then you also have examples like Spanberger

who is like pumping out an enormous volume of bills, like meaningful bills. And she doesn't really get talked about as much as Zoron. And I like Zoron. I do. I like him a lot. I'm really impressed by him. But like, you know, you're right. Like a lot of his wins are well, pretty much all of his wins so far have been pretty symbolic. Even the childcare thing that they unveiled, that was Hockel had been working on that for years with the state legislature, and she decided to like rope him in on that and like, you know, give him, share that credit with him. And so it is frustrating to watch that. A bunch of categories of things that, I'll go ahead. Sobel, sorry. Well, I was going to say like, yeah, with the Mom Dani thing, I actually do understand the double

standard of like, yeah, we haven't seen the direct effects of the best thing he's promised and people cheerlead him far more than they'll cheerlead Spanberger, who's getting these really awesome bills passed. I think the issue is that, I mean, Mom Dani is, speaking to things that in a positive manner that I think a lot of Democrats aren't right now, you know, they have their sort of messaging as this, we can't do much, which is true. But when you are the average citizen and you're looking at these things that are, you know, coming out, it's like, guys, we did it. We released the Epstein files. And it's like, oh, all of them? Like the law said, no. Oh, is Trump going to get punished? Also no. And it's like,

okay, well, why should I care? And, you know, as much as people like us who are more tuned in and informed can say, like, this is meaningful and this is shifting the conversation. it just falls so flat for the average voter who looks at this and says, did anything actually meaningfully change? You know, how many five months after January when we released the second batch? Not really. I mean,

it might have inspired some guy to try to do a crazy assassination attempt, which is not good. That's just turning up the rhetoric. So those poll numbers are down. That's true. It is. And like, I don't know if maybe the Democrats,

I'm sure, you know, they do this, but like how do you make it salient to say, guys, we need to, you know, win in the midterms to be able to do the stuff you're asking us to do, because that sounds so feckless, but it's true. You can't impeach until you win the midterms. You can't pass these laws.

You can't block the legislation you want to. You can never get a filibuster-proof majority. Like, how do you translate that into enthusiasm for Democratic voters? Like, it's almost impossible. It's what Chuck Schumer said. He's like, guys, we're not going to do the shutdown until Trump's more unpopular. And he did it when he was. And it worked a lot better. So he was kind of, you know, vindicated with that, but like, God, that messaging sucked. You know, it's some old geriatric coming out and saying, oh, we're going to win, guys, we'll do it in a few months. And it's like, what is this supposed to inspire me?

How do you do that? A bunch of categories I want to respond to. The first is like the box that I'm trying to create here isn't all Democrats. I think in general Democrats have performed adequately a lot of them rank and file members, a lot of particular members in press. I think John Ossoff with his rhetoric and also in some of these votes and some of the sort of policy achievements that you've highlighted, including the Epstein files, as well as some of the sort of takes that the leadership has been given on things like the, or some members of

leadership, I should say, because they've been pretty bad on the Iran War, but Hakeem Jeffrey specific, I think has been better on it than Chuck Schumer. So I'm not talking about all Democrats. It's also not necessarily, it's not like ideological. I'm not saying that they need to pursue Medicare for all or some kind of leftist media messaging. That's not what I'm alleged. either. What I think people are frustrated with is number one, the, and this is I think first and foremost, a kind of cringness about a lot of Democratic leaders. When people go out and say, we need to fuck Trump or Chuck Schumer with his kind of like cringe shit. Yeah. So there's one aspect of that in terms of this is 50% of your job now is being a good spokesperson and

messenger. And you can say whatever you want to say about, oh, we're out of power or whatever. They're not good messengers and not the base isn't like all dem haters all the time. It didn't used to be this bad in terms of the polling for Democrats in terms of their approval. And there has to be something there in terms of how the public is responding to Democratic leadership specifically in terms of how they're talking to them. So that's one thing. Isn't the case piece to go that that isn't like an integral part of like the Senate minority leader's job to eat shit? I mean, I don't, I can't think of a single. Not to dismiss your point entirely because I don't, like, I don't disagree that there's some really big messaging problems and cringe problems when it comes to like Schumer specifically.

But I can't think of any Democrat right now that would be like popular in that role. I think they're always going to have to like absorb a lot of the anger from the base when they get angry. It seems like in your, on your view, Hodge, I'm sorry to get into this in front of our guest. Don't embarrass me. What would it take for Schumer to do something wrong, right? Because if his poll numbers are wrong, well, that's just what's going to happen if you're a Senate minority leader. If he keeps like the caucus together for a vote, you're like, oh, great, wonderful. Schumer kept the caucus together.

But when he doesn't, it's like, well, he doesn't control these senators. So it really seems like it's an unwinnable scenario with Hutch. There's nothing to assess for when Hutch is going to say Schumer's doing a bad job. And I want to get into the shutdowns because I think that those were losses. We have to think about these in terms of opportunity costs. Yes, the Democrats are, you know, relatives to Republicans doing better in polling in the matchups. But the question isn't, did we survive okay? Are we well positioned to, you know, meet the midterms?

It's how much better would we have been if we stood tall? And I actually think we would have been better if we stood tall on the shutdown. But let's just take one moment, Hutch. The moment of the actual first shutdown fight during November, Schumer comes out and says, I'm going to vote against ending the shutdown. All right. So the official Schumer position is we're not going to let these Republicans walk all over us. We're not just going to end the shutdown. That's the official Schumer position. Right. And yet you have these quote unquote defectors Tim Cain and friends who go and make this separate side deal where there's

no benefit whatsoever. What are we meant to believe from that that Schumer really was and there's reporting that he was not even like trying to lobby the senators who are doing the negotiations to vote in favor of the Democratic position? Are we meant to believe that Schumer wasn't leading the way on that vote? Or is he lying when he says, I'm going to vote against the shutdown and he's operating behind the scenes? Which is it? I think either is more plausible. But I think like the more relevant question is, why do you know, is it a reasonable standard to expect that a political party is going to have perfect unanimity all the time? And I feel like that's the standard that you measure the Democratic Party against. And when you look to historical precedent, this has just

never been the case. There's always, there's always been defectors at times in political parties. that's just the way you're doing a bad job so on your view when would you know that schumer's doing a bad job well i think you should resign for other reasons that's the one i'm asking though like when when would it what would it take for you to be like oh that's a bad job that schumer is doing when he's voting like with the seven against the um the funding or whatever the deals for the bulldoze or whatever what does it take for huts to say schumer is doing a bad job what would you need to see i didn't like that vote i did not like that vote or not what is the kind of thing that you would see to be like Schumer is failing at his job. I mean,

I don't know. That's a pretty broad question. Let's get Tim in here. Tim. What would you say? You know, you're not a last Samara after Schumer. When did you flip on him? Well, this is a complicated question. I think that just policy-wise, like Schumer

has been a disaster on the Iran war and has led his own views, which are out of step with where the party is, where the country is on the threat of Iran, which I think he very much overstates, cloud. what was the right political move here. And so to me, I think that if there's that, that would be my answer to your question of, like,

I didn't think there was any last straw until the Iran thing. And it's just, it's been a total has handled me that I think has been atrocious. My criticism of Schumer would be more on the performance side, back to the perform. Like, I don't, I don't really share your criticism about the shutdown. I think folks needed an off-ramp at some point. But, like, I agree with the criticism on, like, where is the rallying? the base you know like where is the non-cringe messaging and I have I'm kind of of two minds about it right so on the one hand isn't this really a Kamala problem not

a Schumer problem like if Kamala one would anybody be caring about this like I don't think so right like John Thune isn't exactly lighting the world on fire Mike Johnson is walking cringe and like you don't see in the MAGA world like a lot of criticisms of them because it's like well Trump's doing everything you know what I mean like they're just functionaries in Trump. And so since Trump is the president and the Democrats don't have a leader, it kind of, it magnifies the weaknesses the Schumer and Jeffreys have on the messaging standpoint. And I think that I'm starting to change my view on all this.

I used to make fun of this anecdote, but I was on our focus group podcast years ago, like three or four years ago. Sarah was asking some MAGA voters. And I have no idea. I can't remember why she was doing Florida and Alabama, but is Florida and Alabama MAGA voters. And like one of the questions was, who is doing a good job in your state? And they both said like kind of pragmatic Republicans

who were fixing the schools or doing, you know, whatever, doing something they liked that was tangible. And then when we got to the federal level, they're like, Marjorie Taylor Green and Matt Gates are doing well. And I listened to that. And at the time, I really mocked it. You know, because I was like, this is stupid. Like, Marjorie Taylor and Matt Gates aren't doing anything.

Like, you just see them a lot. They're just fucking trolls in their lap. And, like, but now maybe they were on to something. I mean, like, maybe that is kind of the job of Congress in this day and age. I'm not saying that it should be, but maybe it just is. And maybe the Chuck Schumer workout video. Yeah, maybe Democrats need more people, like more fire. brands, more people that are good at messaging, more people, and I, and, and, and maybe that should be part of the job.

It's part of the job assignment for president now, and that wasn't always, you know, I mean, and before the TV era, that wasn't the job of the president. And I think that we went through a period of time where people were like, oh, the president's the TV job and then the Senate and House, like those are more, Senate in particular is more of a functional job. Maybe that's changing now. And maybe the Democrats need to kind of adapt with that. And I think that's kind of how I'm coming around, taught on it. Well, you've kind of spoken on this, but what are your views on then Mum Donnie and his kind of

like very clearly effective social media campaigning that is just super salient to people, these constant updates like here's the new tax I'm implementing. Here's where the status of this policy. Is this more of the direction we should be headed in? Yeah, A plus. I mean, part of it is just that he's a natural.

You know, not everybody has it. I don't know. I was, I had Morris Katz on his advisor on the pod and was asking him, about the Trump visits. I kind of asking about what the prep was for all that. And, you know, they did prep. But it was just, you know, it just was natural for Zoran.

Like, like, what, you know, him going, like, you saw what happened to Gritchin Whitmer. She goes in there. Like, some of this is just an instinct, right? Like, she's in the Oval Office doing basically the same thing as Zon, right? Like, hey, can we find something to work together on? I still disagree with you. And she ends up, like, hiding behind the holder. and everybody shits

that look you know and everybody shits on her rightly by the way for for being too accommodating to Trump and for not standing up to him when he like starts talking about how Chris Krebs should be hung or whatever he was saying in the fucking in the oval office and like

and then Zoran goes in and just like kind of smiles and buddies up with them and everybody's like you know it's like you know some people have it so people don't so I don't everybody can just copy Zoron but I do think that like the principle of more is more, more updates,

taking credit for show, like whatever the example was you said, Hockel really did it. It's like, okay, well, like, who cares?

Like, take credit for it. You know, the old, there's the old line, if you got a shotgun and you're kind of shooting pigeons. It's like shoot what flies, claim what falls.

Like, maybe it wasn't your cartridge that hit the bird, but you're going to count it. You know, if the bird goes down, you take credit. And like, I just think that that is the right.

mindset. And I think that the other things around has done really well, and I've talked about this a lot, because this is the thing I'm obsessed with, is that so many Democrats lately have gotten in the sour spot where, like, moderates, like, bullwark people think that they're too progressive, lib, crazy, and the progressive types think that they're establishment shills. Like, that was Hillary, that was Kamala, that is Schumer, that is Jeffries. Like, there's so many Democrats. They're not really. I guess nobody to think Schumer is so far left. But, like, there's a lot. of big Democrats that this fits. And Obama is the

opposite. Progressive studies, progressive, moderates, not conservatives, but like moderates thought that he was one of them. Progressive thought he's one of them until then eventually. And also if a planner kind of code that way, too. It's not necessarily ideological. It's what your vibe is a bit. I think that they're lacking vibes.

Yeah. And Zornaz has done it. Zoran's done that very well. It's not just natural charisma with Zoron, because his mom is a film director. And you can tell, like his, you can tell the production value is, I can't even begin to describe how important I think that was to his campaign, just having all that polish in the videos that they produce with the different angles and just like really good cinematography and all the good like things that they didn't post. I mean,

all that stuff matters. And so in a way, I think he's a little bit similar to Trump in that. I think Zoron understands the value, the function of the camera. I think like really, really well. And that's just been as huge strength to him as a politician. Great. You sound a little bit like Piscoe because Piscoe's been proposing the idea of like a hybrid politician about like you know he basically in different words expressed the exact same thing that you were just saying and piece go i mean if you want to yeah 100% on that and and i just want to say really i want to stress all the time i have ideological takes you know i'm certainly someone who has my own views on uh you know i believe that we should

have if not medicare for all a public option i have my own like uh particular views on on foreign policy etc but for me what matters a lot more is doing what biden did not which is fixing the soul of this country. And for me, fixing the soul of the country is defeating the empire, defeating the magim elites who are taking over our nation. That's what I think victory looks like. And so in that respect, I will praise, and I have someone like Gavin Newsom on my Twitter feed, when I see him be a leader on redistricting and actually take a calculated risk and win and fight back, I'm all for it. And I see even down or leftists who I grown at, say, I'll begrudgingly say, this was good that Gavin did that.

And also, by the way, shout out to Spanberger. And I'm now forgetting her name, which is a crime. The Senate majority leader of the- Louisville. Yes, yes. And I don't know who was running her feed, but some of it's on-hage, but it's awesome. But these kinds of wins,

whether it's Mom Donnie putting his name on stuff or reaching out and being effective in the rhetoric department with selling whatever this policy was from, Kathy Hokel, or whether it's, state leaders doing awesome stuff and undeniably based things, even when it's just partisan and not necessarily ideological, I think that you get the kudos that you deserve. Yeah, I agree with that.

And I also just think, again, this goes against what my preference would be, but one thing that Zoron is doing well, that, and I just don't know who would even fit this bill for 2028. But he has so much credibility at the progressive left, in particular, I think, over the Israel issue, but also, you know, some of the public services stuff and health care. And that he's been able to do things like keep Jessica Chish and like do some abundancy housing stuff. The cop stuff.

He backed down on the cop state. Yeah, the cop stuff. And like, and sure, some crazy Brooklyn leftist shit on him, but like nobody cares. Right. It doesn't infect of it at all. Right. Like he has a lot more room to maneuver. And I do think that like model could make sense for a national.

politician, somebody that is whatever for Medicare for all and against the Israel funding and like passionate about that and cares about it. And like those are their issues and the fucking Bernie people like him or her. But then also they're like, you know, what we should also do is like have a border. I got it. You know what I mean? Maybe they'd have some more room to maneuver that way. And that might be a better way to kind of get at the heterodox or more moderate voters. I don't know. But I do think that that model is working for Zora. Well, speaking of elections, the last thing I wanted to get into,

I don't know if you guys saw the recent Reuters article about Trump. I mean, you know, they couldn't pass the SAVE Act, but they're still making moves to have federal control over elections prior to these midterms. And we often talk on this show about the guardrails and like what Trump will be able to get away with. To what extent do you think the fucking with the midterms from this, you know, fascist administration is going to directly affect our chances? Or is it just going to fall by the wayside like every other dumb thing they've tried in the past couple months? Yeah.

My alarmism is like on the upper end on basically everything except this of like people in like bulwarky democracy circles. I'm not saying that I'm not worried about it. I am. I just think that they are. they're a lot less effective at this than there are other stuff. You know, like, Russ voted as an efficient bastard when it comes to tearing down the government. They don't have anybody that is that good at this.

They tried with the gerrymandering. That backfired. They tried with 2020. Like, failed every lawsuit. I mean, you know, they ended up getting some people killed at the Capitol. But, like, they didn't really get that close to pulling it off. they're still trying now to go find 2020 stuff

and Cashmertel is promising like last week to arrest the 2020 perpetrators. It's like okay, we'll see we'll see how that goes. He's fighting to keep that job. Yeah, I hear you. Did you see him in the Southern Poverty Law? Just real quick on the Southern Poverty Lawsuit.

So fucking Todd Blanche comes out, gives his rapport, it's middling, it's whatever, but it's functional. And then Cashmettel just comes on right after him after he's in this like media storm. and basically says the exact same thing. And they just trotted him out just to repeat what Todd Plains said just previously.

So, yeah, he's fighting for it. You know, and a lot of times voter suppression stuff backfires, draws attention to think. It can work. But like there are lots of examples of a backfiring too. So I just at a broad level of like them stealing the midterms or fucking canceling. It's like that stuff I don't think is going to work. I worry about the Senate in a very narrow outcome situation.

I really do think we could be staring down the barrel of a 51, 49 Senate and where that 51st seat is in a state where Republicans control everything. And so, like, to me, you know, I think that that is like, is... You mean something that would qualify as fuckery, but it would be done through a legal mechanism? Yeah, or who the hell knows? they challenge the votes and they've got like some fucking mega election deniers

you know secretary of state and like that 50 first seat could be Montana Iowa Alaska yeah but this is a repeat of 2000 right I mean it's it's less you know fascistic but you get the Supreme Court to essentially say like

hey stop counting the votes and I've declared the way we're not going to count these votes the mail votes where you're going to throw you know we're going to now go through the mail votes and if your signature doesn't match the signature that you signed the card with 10 years ago we're going to throw it out. Yeah.

And who knows? There's a bunch of different stuff that they could do, you know, on certifying on the back end after the election. So, like, I worry just mostly about, like, those, the red state inflection point, you know, tipping point Senate states, which is bad and something to be really concerned about, like different than some of the more over-the-top rhetoric. You sometimes hear about them.

just, you know, canceling the midterms, martial law, that kind of stuff. Tim, how bullish are you on America in the next 10 years? America, yes or no? Honestly, though, I mean, how do you see this playing out realistically over the next five to 10 years? I mean, is there any chance that the Republican Party could, if not go back to Mitt Romney levels of normal,

but like drift in that direction? Zero percent chance of Republicans. Yeah, I'm like, so, I am short-term, like, pretty alarmist and pessimistic. At least I just, I think Trump is like aging and he's increasingly going to have his numbers tanking and he's erratic. And I just, I think that like, it's hard to even imagine what the kind of crazy shit he's going to get in his mind when he's 81 years old and like the, you know, the curtain is about to come down on all this. Like, I'm very, I'm very concerned. learned about the next two years.

I'm kind of medium term optimistic. Like, I do think that, like, the American economic engine is still, like, super powerful. I mean, it's kind of crazy to think, but, like, and I saw something today.

It's like, anthropic is like a trillion dollar, has a trillion dollar valuation already. And, like, we do, the American innovation machine does just still keep kicking. You know, and we have a lot of,

like, natural resources domestically. It's, you know, there's, uh, the joke about how it's like, every kind of rare earth mineral, you know, that they think that they only have in Alaska.

It's like one day a guy's in his backyard in Pennsylvania and starts digging. It's like, oh, we got it in Pennsylvania too. Like, I just, we do have just a resources and innovation ingenuity level enough to kind of like keep things rolling. And I think that these guys are beat. I think that they're so fucking stupid that they're beatable. And you saw Orban being beatable. Like, we should have beat them last time. I just think that there's some bad luck.

Like there's COVID, the timing of things. some horrible choices by Biden. I think there's like a confluence of events that really worked against us. And I think that they're beatable. And I think that in the medium term, in theory, we could find a quasi-normal Democrats, you know, that can kind of get things a little bit back on track. But I'm pretty... Should they get rid of the filibuster?

I think probably. Yeah. But then I'm back to kind of long-term negative, though. I don't know. The AI stuff's pretty scary. I'm pretty concerned about the youth not being able to read. I don't think that the authoritarian, right,

I don't think that the Republicans are going back to Mitt Romney ever. I think that they're going to be a right wing, a populist authoritarian party that kind of like vacillates between maybe like a Boris Johnson in the best case, like all the way over to, you know,

Bolsonaro, Trump, or Trump Jr. in the worst case. I just think that's like the trajectory over there. And, you know, I think that we've demonstrated a lot of weaknesses in our system. And I don't, yeah, so I don't know. That's kind of, that's my trajectory. I think that America is salvageable right now and worth fighting for.

I have some concerns about the long term, but I don't know, the future will take care of itself. I totally agree with Tim your outlook in terms of the white pill for the midterms. In general, I'm not as concerned that they're going to be competent enough. I certainly think there's no legal basis as currently stands to, fuck with the elections and the way they seem to be indicating they want to. And maybe they'll try to get ice to different polling stations. But I even think that could backfire on them in terms of public sentiment. I am, though, however, concerned for the country.

I am concerned for the direction of the Republican Party. I, like you, think it's zero percent chance that we're going to see them go back to like the old Republicans of old back when you were a Republican, literally zero percent chance. I am happy to see that J.D. Vance, his chances are on the decline. But I don't think that we should consider someone like Marco. Rubio, for example, to be the Marco Rubio of 2015 or 16. I mean, he's changed significantly and the party has changed significantly. What I'm concerned about Trump, but like, sure.

I mean, he has fully gone in on the populist right stuff and I think might be also suffering from some megalomania with Venezuela's success. Yeah. 100%. I go back to 2020 a lot. And even though it was a great victim. victory, I was not happy during the election. I remember it was taking place and it took like three days or so to get an actual

announcement. And that time lag where I was glued to my television, just refreshing all the time, it felt awful. It felt almost in a way worse than 2024 that it wasn't a resounding defeat for Trumpism. And I want the country to deliver that. And so I am concerned for the scenarios in which Democrats eke out this kind of like marginal victory and that we don't ever get a full resounding repudiation

of Trumpism. Yeah. Tim, you were too agreeable. I don't like the debt either. I'm concerned about the debt. I'll sound like a problem again. Yeah, I was going to say. Last minute, you said you hate Biden. We're a lib podcast. What's the worst thing you can say about those damn lives? Hit us.

About any libs? I mean, I could just go off all day on the fucking Biden. I mean, just the selfish sense. You said the border was open. That doesn't make any sense, right? It's selfishness, it's not anymore. The selfishness and the narcissism of the Biden family is insane. The identity obsession of the libs. I just like, it's possible the original sin of all this was Joe Biden, like,

feeling like he had to name a black woman as his VP. Like, I like Kamala personally, but like, why did he feel that way? Like, why shouldn't he have picked the best person? Like, really, as old as Biden was, Shouldn't you pick someone else old so that like they would have not been the next candidate or someone that said that they weren't going to run like a Dick Cheney type? But like good. I shouldn't they've done that? But anyway, you end up with Kamala.

And so now you end up like Biden through his selfishness and narcissism stays well past. It was obvious that he could be the reason that we lose our democracy and that he was not like obviously he was not capable of being president until 2028. like anybody with two eyes can see that. And so he sticks around anyway, embarrasses himself. And then he drops out way too late. And then it's like, well, we have to go with Kamala again in part because of the identity thing. Because it was like, oh, if we have an open process, then it'll look like we're passing her over. And that's racism.

And it's just like, I don't, I'm not, I think that sometimes like the libs like get too wrapped around the axle around all this stuff, man. It's just, you know, it's like, hey. This was big boy business here. This was big boy business. We need to make sure we had the strongest possible person. Maybe that was Kamala. I don't know. But like shouldn't we have,

shouldn't we have at the best per? Sorry to sound like Elon Musk, caring with the meritocracy, but shouldn't we have had the best vice president possible and the best candidate possible to be able? You sound like Charlie Kirk. You're not going to trust a plane because it's a black woman. No, I love, I like, I wouldn't let Kamala.

I'm just saying like, why is that the reason to do it, you know, to pick, to do it. anyway. 20. Do you think she was overlooked because of they didn't want to appear racist or they didn't want to not overlook her? To me it was just, hey, you've got a hundred days.

We don't have time for a freaking primary right now. Just she's the only one anyone even knows, right? I guess. I don't know. I think there was time. I don't like most countries' elections aren't a hundred days. I just feel like the short day thing is. If anything, Kamala probably would have done better

if the election was 40 days after she was picked rather than 100 days. I would think. Maybe. Maybe. Most of the first 40 days were good. Yeah. And she was good in the first 40 days. And so maybe she would have won the nomination anyway.

I just don't know. My point is, like, a lot of this, I just, I think that there's too much, like, step it on China, the lives. We don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. That's true. You can't hurt old man Biden's feelings, you know, by talking about the fact that, like, he can't talk. Like, he sounds horrible mouth when he's talking, like, talking is kind of an important part of the presidency. I can't mention that. or else we'll be agist.

Like we can't, we can't at least discuss the idea of whether we should have an open process because that's going to be misogynistic. I just, you know, I don't, I'm not for anybody being racist or misogynist or agist, but like I just am for honesty and truth and balls.

And that's, and the lives sometimes are a little short on. And so that's also, by the way, the take of the Obama staffers, I don't know if you've like noticed this subplot about, of the Obama staffers versus the Biden staffers. Oh yeah.

The pod say people against, yeah. So you take the firm stance of, you know, you're with John Lovett and with, well, they're right. They're just right. And but those guys, I mean, I love those guys. They weren't saying it. As well, as to the debate, as it was. Right, right. Ezra was, but he's not an Obama staffer.

So I take the same malice to him with the Kintaji Brown Jackson pick because I think that was even more blatantly id pull from Biden. And I think she's done a great job and all of the opinions she's given. I think that's fine. I'm a balance in all things guy. I don't think that all identity politics is bad. I think that people want to feel represented and seen. I have a black daughter. And I think that like the great part of the bloke was like it's way easier for my mom to buy her like black girl power action figures and shirts and stuff than she could have if it was 10 years ago.

And like that's, you know, I'm always complaining. She was looking for like a, what they called the little box with the ballerina inside? Whatever. Holly pocket. Yeah, and she couldn't find one with a black girl and it was making her mad and I was like 10 years ago you couldn't have found anything with a black girl like really like right and it's 20 years ago. So like there's good parts to all this. The Supreme Court only has nine people like having a qualified black woman on the Supreme Court like totally makes sense. So I know I don't that doesn't bother me. It's not I don't it's not that it's not that it's not that it's just like I don't like the um when it gets centered so much that like the debate is silenced about it. You know what I mean? Like, I think that, and I think that that was true. Well, woke 2.0, we won't be silencing anyone.

We'll just be so aggressively woke that no one could disagree with us because it's just the best possible version. Yeah. Before we end, we have to, we have to ask him to be fair and balance, say something nice about J.D. Vance. Oh, okay. I would never have learned the phrase recess side profile. If it was just in her equivocal, her describing J.D.

Vance's face. and I love the phrase recess side profile. I'm using it all the time now. So I guess I would say that about J.D. Vance. He is the most unappealing person I've ever encountered in my life. And it's not really, I can't think of a close second. I don't, I can't. I mean, I guess it was nice that he served his country unlike Donald Trump.

There we go. We squeezed out a win for J.D. We should just end the podcast, Ted saying I like balls. That's a low hanging film. That's some low-hanging fruit. I do like balls. Tim, thanks so much for coming on. At the end here, we just do, I mean, chat, I mean, I doubt anyone in our audience doesn't know

who you are, but, you know, what do you got coming up other than the bulwark? I mean, do you have media appearances, book plugs? What's going on? I'm not writing another book, man. That's a burden. You know, the bulwark is what's happening. I'm on every day. We've got Jazz Fest weekend, too, this weekend.

We got live shows in L.A. What is it? May 20th and, no, San Diego, May 20th and L.A. May 21st. So if you got any SoCal people, come hang with me. Right here. It's all good, baby. Cool. Thanks so much. My shoutouts are releasing a video this week, but on topic of voter suppression, midterms,

I've partnered with some former people in Progressive Victory, and there's a link in my pinned comments, go. Go.rally.w.w.W.W.S. Soypill. and you can enter your information and go check your voter registration. Make sure you haven't been kicked off voter rolls. Make sure you're, you know, geared up for the midterms. Anyone could click on it. You know, I'm not going to sell your information. The only reason my name's in the link is because they're tracking like who click on it from where. But just go make sure you can vote because I'm, I'm more scared than

everyone else here. And that's good. By the way, being vigilant is important. Being vigilant is important. And we appreciate that. So I. Yeah. What about you, Hutch? What's going on? Same old regular stream. I just want to use this outro, Tim, to tell you my favorite clip of you was your exchange with Carrie Lake, the famous exchange where she touched you and you said,

don't touch me. And I saw my chat, I was so excited to have you on because like you, I'm very emotive and expressive. And I like that you are very, like, you kind of always know what you're thinking.

You know what I don't think. I think that about you. And the contempt that you showed for Carrie Lake in that moment was so appropriate. And it was just, yeah, that's just one of my very...

I just got to say, people, I really appreciate that. People always do remember the me telling, her not to touch or asking her why she's touching me. But I mean, my personal favorite part of that was after that moment, then she tries to like recover it. And it's like, hey, well, at least, at least one thing that we can agree on is

that we both love the country. And I said, I don't think you can agree on that actually. I don't think that you love the country. It was great. Thanks for coming on. Yeah. All right. We'll see everybody. I just wanted to say real quick.

Yeah, yeah, before you leave, shout out IRA. He couldn't make it today because he has to do some things with his side game. He's too famous. He's too famous for us. But I know he would have loved to speak with you, Tim, because we all are huge fans of the bulwark. And it really is an honor for you to show up and graces with your presence. I recently did like a longer car ride. And I was listening to you and Ben Rhodes, I think. You guys did a collab or something.

It was really awesome. So everyone, I encourage you. Please check out the bulwark and Tim's content. It's really good. Thanks so much. you guys so much. Have a great day. We'll be seeing you around.