Bulwark Takes - Trump Can’t Hold the Coalition Together Anymore

Episode Date: November 16, 2025

Sam Stein and Jack Cocchiarella take on Trump’s attacks on Rep. Massie hitting a nerve within his own base, as Marjorie Taylor Greene pivots away from Trump on CNN and die-hard MAGA loyalists start calling out the corruption and hypocrisy.

Hey, y'all. It's Jack Cottrell with the Bullwark. And I'm joined this morning with Sam Stein to discuss the chaos that's happening within MAGA. I don't know. Has this risen to Civil War level yet? I think that we're approaching it. And Donald Trump is doing really everything he can because the loudest voices against him in his party right now are getting a lot of fodder from truth social. And they are happy to talk about it on the morning shows, which is what they did today. Thomas Massey, maybe with the biggest threat to Donald Trump standing within But Marjorie Taylor Green with her thoughts as well. We're going to break it all down. But it starts, of course, with the meltdown that Trump had on Air Force One on Friday, attacking Thomas Massey and his deceased wife seemingly, which I thought was a choice, but not a different one, considering Trump does like talking about people's wives. But I want to start there and then the threat that Massey is now issuing to really all of MAGA. Did Thomas Massey sometimes refer to as Rand Paul Jr. because of the fact that he always votes against the Republican Party getting married already? Boy, that was quick. No wonder the polls have him at less than 8% chance of winning the election. Anyway, have a great life, Thomas, and question mark. His wife will soon find out that she's stuck with a loser. Yeah. What a dick. Honestly. It's just a horrible thing to do and say. The man was married for 30 years. His wife tragically passed. He is remarried. You are allowed to remarry. Of all people, Donald Trump would know that. And look, I mean, people online, not like you and me, Jack, but actual magas online found this repulsive.

People were commenting all over the weekend. Then we can get into a larger, the larger issue here about what's happening in this moment. But this one particularly really repulsed a lot of folks where they were like, that's a low blow. Like what kind of human being does this stuff? And I know Trump said millions of horrible things about people all the time. So whatever, they'll all come running back to the guy. but I think a lot of people found this viscerly grotesque, and rightfully so.

I mean, you don't go after a dude who tragically lost his wife. Yeah, it is funny to see Maga compartmentalize this and be like, well, when you go after someone's like living wife, that's one thing, but now we've decided that like this is the line. And it's, and it's especially gross because Thomas Massey has actually talked extensively about how Trump called him and left a really nice message after his wife passed. So this is something that he's well aware of, but with all of this in mind. Trump, right? Like, Trump has like this duality to him where he can apparently be a very charming human

being in real life person to person. And then, you know, switch just flipped and he goes nuts. Well, it is, it is funny how how Republicans always talk about him that way where they're like, well, there's this different side of Donald Trump that you don't see, you know, he can be nice. And he's always, you know, this way to me. And it's crazy when you see Maga use that defense. Like, have you ever seen like a spy movie where the villain you don't discover he's the villain towards the end because I did like as a person like you can be two different ways like you

could still be a bad person and be nice to some people yeah of course it's like maga finally waking apparently they're just discovering this now right like it's been like 10 years of this stuff and i thought the math but the math thing i don't know why this one really stuck out i guess it's just because it's so recent it's so gross and it's all because of the epstein stuff like tom massey is just he wants these files release he's not bending and so trump's losing his mind about it Yeah, and Massey had as a response, not just for Trump, but really all of MAGA, those who have not decided that they will get behind not protecting pedophiles. And what he said this morning, I think is maybe even more so than the fights with Marjorie Taylor Green, even more so with any of the other, you know, petty spats, the most important message to MAGA. I would remind my Republican colleagues who are deciding how to vote, Donald Trump can protect you in red districts right now by giving you an endorsement.

But in 2030, he's not going to be the president. will have voted to protect pedophiles if you don't vote to release these files and the president can't protect you then. This vote, the record of this vote will last longer than Donald Trump. Yeah. So in this case, it's very interesting. Like, he's just basically like, look, you can be on one of two sides. Yeah, the guy's going to be vindictive. You might get a primary threat because you vote for this resolution. But in 10 years time, you're going to have to defend yourself for protecting pedophiles, right? Like, I think that's a fairly effective argument to make.

And we'll see how it happens because they're going to have this vote this week in which the expectations are that like, you know, a couple dozen Republicans might vote for this, although this is exactly what Trump's trying to prevent, right? Like, he's going after Massey in these horrible terms and then pulling his endorsement for Marjor, Taylor Green. So we'll see what kind of influence Trump has over this stuff. But Massey's got a point. Like, Trump's not going to be there forever.

You're going to have to weigh this both morally. and politically what it means to vote to protect these files in an election where Trump's not on the ballot. And that election, keep in mind, is not 2028. It's 2026. I was surprised Massey made the reference to like 2030 instead of saying right now. I know, right? Because from what I've heard the kind of like scuttlebutt around Republicans in the House voting for this resolution, that it could get up to like 60 or 80. And I don't know like 60 or 80. Yeah, I don't know what the break point number is. Man, that would be shocking to me. At what point can Trump not go after all of them? Like, I know that's the whole thing. It's like strength in numbers, right? Like, they need to have, if once it gets

big, then it can balloon to something massive. Yeah. And that's what I'm trying to prevent. Well, and that's what I've heard of a lot of the Democratic leadership say is that they think that they can get it to the point where even Republicans in the Senate are like, oh, it doesn't, it doesn't really look like I can vote against this. Yeah. Can we talk for a second about this tweet that really piqued my interest, which is from Congressman Troy Nels, who is like the most maga-ish congressman defends Donald Trump all the time. He responded online when Trump was like, this is an Epstein hoax. Don't vote for it. They should be looking at Bill Clinton, yada, yada, yada. And he responds. He says like he's going to absolutely side with Trump on this. He says, quote, I'm going to

be voting no on the Epstein hoax. The Democrats are using the Epstein hoax, blah, blah, to distract us from the winning of President Trump and his administration. My message to my Republican colleagues don't let this noise keep us from delivering on the mandate. I need to read the rest. Anyways, he takes Trump's side. And if you read it and you just scroll through the comments and there are so many comments. Huge ratio. It is exactly the opposite of what you traditionally would expect.

He's getting killed online and not just from Democrats. He's getting killed from Magafiles. He's getting killed from Republicans. It's not so bad, actually. And then there's some reader context that's. was added that's humiliating like there's this weird online appetite among the maga faithful where they just are like fuck this like no we actually care about this stuff and i found that fascinating the non i think we should do geopetophile is that is that better than the magafile i think

that's worse it's worse it's worse oh because rocun has been doing the epstein class he's been trying that out which i which i kind of like but it's switched where you know i think you would probably consider like liberal folks more like chronically online in the way that we gauge policy or like the the infighting or whatever it may be but that's certainly switched and especially like under Elon Musk's Twitter MAGA is so much more online they're getting their cues from all of these people and I just keep thinking about J.D. Vance who the only thing like the only thing that he said about Epstein so far is responding not to Lawrence O'Donnell directly but I don't know if you saw this someone posted like 17 minutes or like the full Lawrence O'Donnell

monologue, just some random clipping account. And it was like J.D. Vance hasn't said anything. He's waiting to seize. Like he thinks Trump is Nixon. He thinks he's going to resign. And J.D. Vance responded to that. He's his name searching so deeply at this point that he's in like Lawrence O'Donnell clipping account territory. And he hasn't said a word. So they're certainly aware of how bad this has gotten for them. And that's why I think the pressure might just be overwhelming. And we could see those bigger numbers. Or maybe I'm just being hopeful. No. Like they're so tuned in. it. Yeah. Okay. So this is with a bigger picture thing I wanted to talk about, which is there's been like, I don't know, so many times where people are like, wow, the walls are caving in on the guy and MAGA's in Civil War. And surely this, you know, it's become a meme almost to think like the Trump is stepping in it. And then he gets out of it or they always come back home or whatever. Yeah. So I'm not going to do that. I really don't want to do that. But I'm kind of going to do that.

Which is, we can have some fun. Yeah. Well, this is all anecdotal, right? So like, And maybe it's my algorithm, or maybe Elon's turned the screws in kind of an interesting way. But I swear, the 4-U column this weekend was just filled with people who you would never expect to be critical of Trump, who were being critical of Trump. And it was a combination of the Epstein file stuff, the attack on Tom Massey. And then, you know, on endorsing Marjorie Taylor Green, while simultaneously playing golf this weekend with Lindsay, Graham. And like, you know, we can put up some of these. But like, these are people I never even heard of, but they have massive accounts. And like, you know, they were saying like this guy, Clint Russell, Trump launched nukes at massing NTG this morning while golfing with Lindsey Graham.

Trump is telling you exactly who is, please listen. Okay. Like, this dude is, you know, ostensibly conservative, I think. I don't know. Michael Flynn Jr. His dad's trying to get $50 million from the government right now from a civil settlement. He's out there going, not being like, you can be critical of this administration. He's telling people, fuck you if you think you can't be critical of them. When the administration does something right, I'll praise it. Thank you for securing our border. If the administration fucks up, they need to hear it. I'm not a yes, man, and it does the country no good for us to not call balls and strikes. Kevin Sorbo, you know, classic actor. He's out there criticism. I mean, like, I'm not cherry picking. I swear to God,

there was so many of them this weekend. Well, and I think they understand, like, this is a moment maybe for their coalition. I saw the end of Marjorie Taylor Green's interview on CNN, and I want to check out a little bit of that and what she had to say. But she told Dana Bash to have Nick Fuentes on the show. So for me, this isn't just like, let's have some Twitter spats. Let's move on. But I think it is.

She told Dana Bash that. I'm like, you should have Nick Fuentes on your show. And they see this is like, this is our moment to seize. This is our, like, this is our coalition building moment. Like, we're getting all the PR possible. I also think it's important that you have these people like, oh, God, I can't believe I have to reference this person. But you see cat turd say like, oh, we need a primary Marjorie Taylor Green.

And it used to be like, oh, some Republican would launch some attack on Trump and be like, oh, the walls are closing it. And then they back off. But I feel like that's what's going to be backed off of. I'm sure that Trump can get someone to run against MTG. But is the base or like, are his puppets really actually going to continue to push for that? Are they just going to get bored? and that's the worst thing in maga politics is boredom like that'll tank yeah that's true and then there's like

I talked about this on a video a couple days ago but like I think there's also the sort of recognition that things are not like particularly going that great yeah and that Trump's kind of lame duck and also that he's doing deeply corrupt things so like that Mike Cernovich tweet that I talked about the other day like that was pretty compelling where he's just like everyone is talking about how corrupt this administration is yeah and he keeps on bringing up the fact that he's dying like Does he? Well, he's like, I got an MRI and they looked at my brain. He doesn't know where he got the, what he got the MRI of, apparently.

And then he was like at a wedding. He was like, oh, I'm talking, I might go to heaven soon or I might not. And it's like, I think that has to contribute to it. So maybe that's it. Maybe this is just like a real early, and maybe it's not, you know, all that complicated. Maybe this is just an attempt to get the party situated in one direction, knowing that Trump's unlimited time here politically. And yeah, maybe MTG is not the, you know, the great champion for liberalism that some want her to be, although I can make the case that you strategically take advantage of. Maybe she's doing this to, you know, open the door for, you know, the Nick Fuentes of the world.

But either way, we're at this seemingly precarious moment for the movement in which the guy who's held it all together is a lame duck, is championing weird policies that are controversial. and not going over well with the base is, you know, going crazy at any point who crosses him and then making alliances with people that the base doesn't trust, like Lindsey Graham. So it's like this odd moment right now. It's almost like every move that Trump has tried to make, whether it be on foreign policy, on trade, on immigration, has literally been an attempt to fracture the very unstable base ahead of 2028 in which they will all eat each other alive. I wanted to see a little bit of what Marjorie Taylor Green said on CNN.

We have seen these kinds of attacks or criticism from the president at other people. It's not new. And with respect, I haven't heard you speak out about it until it was directed at you. Dana, I think that's fair criticism. And I would like to say, humbly, I'm sorry for taking part in the toxic politics. It's very bad for our country. And it's been something I've thought about a lot, especially since Charlie Kirk was assassinated, is that we, I'm only responsible for myself and my own words and actions, and I am committed. And I've been working on this a lot lately to put down the knives and politics.

I really just want to see people be kind to one another. And we need to figure out a new path forward that is focused on the American people because, As Americans, no matter what side of the aisle we're on, we have far more in common than we have differences. And we need to be able to respect each other with our disagreements. So for me, Marjorie, I'm not going to accept your apology. I'm sorry. That's kind of my position. I responded to the tweet that she first put out. She's like, you know, I feel myself in danger, which I don't want anyone in the public view to be in danger. I don't want people to feel like they have to be making policy decisions on what won't put their family in harm's way. But this is the

same Marjorie Taylor Green, who was like stalking and harassing David Hogg and his sister when they came to Washington. This is the same Marjorie Taylor Green, who we might remember put a lot of members of Congress in harm's way on January 6th. So it's really difficult for me to just like fully forgive and fully move on. I just don't know if I can trust her. Like strategically, I'm happy to say, oh, Marjorie, keep on talking about it. Keep on talking about Trump. Go for it. Thumbs up. I'll retweet all the stuff. But I just don't, I don't know if we should. But this is the conversation I think we've been having a lot lately like who should be forgiven in our politics who can we move on from having said or done what i don't know what's your take on this i'm like a degree further towards

the forgiveness camp than you i suppose like i i totally hear you uh i think some of the stuff she did in their past is not that it's unforgivable but it's just like you can't just get away by saying i i regret doing that like you need to have more you know contrition i suppose uh and frankly you know act in a more, I don't know, a man that brings people together for more than just like a month. At the same time, and I was talking with, I think it was Chris Murphy, I was interviewing Chris about this at the trip fest and we were talking about sort of the idea of kind of big time politics and what it means. And like, you don't need to like say Marjorie Taylor Green should, you know, become like a leading voice for liberalism. She doesn't even want to be Democrat.

But part of a coalition politics is seeming to at least embrace the idea of, you know, of aligning yourself with unorthodox voices, let's put it that way. And so I want to think that smart political party would say, okay, we understand that you're seeing the light. We're happy that you're seeing the light. We really appreciate your criticisms of Donald Trump in this moment. We think they're principled. We appreciate your votes for getting these Epstein files released.

We appreciate your advocacy for, you know, helping out with the healthcare premiums. all that stuff we appreciate. We're going to take our time to trust that this conversion is real. We're going to take a little space. We want to make sure the Jewish space laser thing is no longer in your brain and that you're not harassing people online anymore. But we're open-minded to you. We must see you complete the reverse fetterman before we decided to make you,

before we decide to make you the face of the party. Yeah, it really is. No, it really is. So anyway, that's where I stand. I'm willing to embrace. I think a little bit more than you, but I totally get your point. Slowly, slowly. Is Marjorie coming on anytime soon? Are you guys going to have a check? I told Tim to, I mean, we would love to have her on the pod. I think we should get her on the pod. I think it would be great. I'm not sure she's ready for the pod. But give it a couple weeks. Give it a couple of weeks. And then she can invite Nick Fuentes on too. And that would be. That will not. I will not happen. I will absolutely never platform that human being.

That's not going to happen. All right. I think that sounds like a good plan. And Marjorie, keep on attacking Donald Trump. Yeah, if you're listening to Marjorie. And then come on the show. All right, with the bulwark. Thanks so much for joining me, man. Thanks, Jack. Take care, man.