Bulwark Takes - Trump Love Affair With Putin Burns On As Tulsi Is Confirmed

Episode Date: February 12, 2025

Sam Stein and Bill Kristol discuss the meeting between Trump and Putin. Agreeing to visit each other's countries, how they will stop the war and much more.

Hey guys, Sam Stein here, Managing Editor at The Bulwark, here with Bill Kristol, who really wanted to jump on to talk about Kendrick Lamar's halftime show, but instead we're going to talk about Vladimir Putin and Tulsi Gabbard and Pete Hegseth. So we'll save Kendrick for another day. We are speaking on Wednesday around 1245, about 30 or 40 minutes ago, two things happened. One was Tulsi Gabbard was confirmed by the Senate as DNI. Only one Republican voted no. That would be Mitch McConnell. Everyone else voted yes. So it was 52 to 48. The second thing, I think more importantly, was that Donald Trump put out a statement.

I guess you could say put out a statement. It's from his account on truth. And in it, he says a number of different things. The highlights are he spoke with Vladimir Putin. They discussed Russia, discussed Ukraine, Middle East, AI. Two things that stand out. One, they agreed to each visit each other's country, which is interesting. Two is that they are going to start working together on a peace agreement vis-a-vis Ukraine, and that the people involved in it are going to be Marco Rubio, John Ratcliffe, that's the National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz as well. Sorry, John Ratcliffe is Director of CIA, Mike Waltz, National Security Advisor, and Steve Witkoff, who is the special envoy.

Not involved will be General Kellogg, who's the actual person tasked with negotiating a peace deal for Ukraine. So what do you make of it? No, it is big news. But can I just say about Kendrick Lamar, I just got all these notes, detailed analysis of some of the choreography, and you're just going to land the hot. And some of the lyrics, not of which I quite understand. But anyway, yeah, another day. That'll be a lot. I think that'll be a 3 a.m. live. We need more time. Somehow the editors want to schedule that as a 3 a.m. live podcast on Sunday night. Anyway,

no, it is a big deal. And despite joking about this, it's, for me, a very worrisome development as a strong supporter of Ukraine. Why? Because almost three years ago, Putin began his all-out invasion of Ukraine. And I really worry that today we're seeing the beginning of the all-out abandonment of Ukraine. I mean, there's been a fight within the Trump administration. Obviously, the Republican Party is split on this. But people like me have had hopes, and more important than people like me, people closer to Trump world who were pro-Ukraine have had hopes that Trump could see that it's not in his interest to simply abandon them. Putin's not going to give him a real deal or a good deal.

And maybe he'll end up being a grudging supporter of Ukraine and also put pressure on Putin. Remember, Trump himself was saying, wasn't he saying a few weeks ago, sanctions, you know, I can tighten those sanctions. There's not a word about that in this statement. There's credulous repeating of Putin's rhetoric. And I think the point you made is very important. Keith Kellogg, who was Mike Pence's national security advisor in the first term, pretty hawkish on Ukraine, certainly by Trump handling this and has been sort of trying to stay i'd say a steer a middle course between firm support for ukraine and abandonment of ukraine uh not mentioned in as as the negotiator uh instead his real estate buddy i think his real estate isn't he steve woodcoff is new york deal negotiating buddy whatever he is but i mean he's not a negotiator is there and what does he do he negotiates deals and he was there incidentally helping get that american out he met with putin already the whole notion of right uh what's what i'm looking for not blockading put you know uh isolating putin not meeting with putin

is not he's the outcast he's indicted criminal well that's out there i mean that that's all gone trump's happy to go meet with Putin, apparently. And the final point I just make, he says, I'm going to call President Zelensky and inform of this. He doesn't say that there's going to be a negotiation between Russia and Ukraine. He says, we're going to negotiate with Ukraine. Maybe we'll let Zelensky send a representative. Maybe we won't. But we may cut a deal right over Zelensky's head. Right. Now, the preamble to this was there was talks of territorial exchanges.

There's also talks of Ukraine selling the United States, what, minerals, rare goods. What was it? Like natural? I don't even know minerals and other rare energy you know energy sources in exchange for weaponry so there were pockets of news that suggested that we were actually in medium to far stage negotiations with ukraine about how to actually continue our support of their military operations. Is this possible that we're talking sort of dual track here that we're, you know, showing a little bit here, showing a little bit there,

but behind the scenes, it's maybe more complicated? I mean, it could be that, again, people who are pro-Ukraine were hopeful that some people who are closer to Trump had come up with this way that would appeal to Trump of helping Ukraine, which would be, hey, you get to have this 90 year, 99 year lease on Ukraine's minerals or the energy sources and return for the aid. And it was reasonably clever move. General Jack Keane co-authored an op-ed on that, I think about a week or two ago. And that was clear, something they'd sort of been hoping, Kellogg was talking about that. No mention of that here. Could, yes, and that could be the plan. That could be what Trump threatens Putin with if they get into negotiations, and Putin isn't, is being unreasonable,

which I expect he will be. Certainly no hint of that here. It doesn't mean it couldn't come back. Well, and the other thing that is sort of hanging over this is, so Hegseth, Pete Hegseth, Defense Secretary Hegseth, is over in Ukraine right now, gives a speech in which he rules out the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO. I mean, it was not going to happen necessarily, but it was always there as a possible negotiating leverage point. And then also makes the statement that long-term Ukrainian security will have to depend on the Europeans. And to me, that was actually the biggest policy point breakthrough here, which is, look, if you negotiate a deal with Putin in the interim, that's fine. Maybe you can make the logical ideological case that it's good to stop the fighting.

But it's the long-term security, the long-term ability to say, okay, this is a stable part of the world that is difficult. And there's nothing necessarily to stop Putin from turning around and reneging on the deal, especially if America is not a party to the long-term security of the Ukrainians. So that to me was the thing that stood out. I think you're absolutely right. I'm very glad. I saw the Hegseth thing earlier this morning and I thought, oh, that's bad. I mean, you're giving away all your leverage. Incidentally, if there is a deal, there's going to be some guarantee of Ukrainian sovereignty and some guarantee that we might help them, one would think. Otherwise, they're just being left alone with arms cut off.

Right. What's the incentive for them to sign off? What's the incentive for Putin to honor that deal or just honor it for a month, kind of a decent interval, then come right back to the war? Sure. you know, or just to honor it for a month, you know, kind of a decent interval, then come right back to the war. And NATO membership, in fact, with, you know, presumably not including for now the parts that would be occupied by Russia, has always been the greatest leverage we've had. That's what Putin is scared of NATO. That's the one thing we've learned in the last three years. He does not want a war with NATO.

He only attacks non-NATO countries. And whenever there's some NATO looks like it might get close to being involved, he starts talking about nuclear weapons. So Hexeth totally gave that away. I mean, from his point of view, he didn't give it away because he doesn't want to fight. He doesn't want to help. He doesn't not just want to fight. He doesn't want to help Ukraine, basically.

So I very much agree that that now where you see it, there's some coordination. At least Trump knew what Hexeth was saying or whatever. It's a very ominous day for Ukraine. It's also the timing is interesting. I mean, this Munich Security Conference, which is the Kexeth is there ahead of, in Europe ahead of, is Friday to Sunday, as I recall.

I think it's usually Friday to Sunday. Vice President Vance is going to speak. He's going to meet with Zelensky. Vance has been very hostile to Ukraine, but he was going to meet with the president of Ukraine. Now Trump is maybe partly for usual Trump reasons have wanted to be in the center of the spotlight, has carefully timed this so that Vance's speech is a total, you know, afterthought, presumably. And he's now at the center. And everyone's going to be interested in what he said to Putin and when he is he can actually meet with Putin and how who's how how do these negotiations happen I come back again though this is fits it

with excess sort of sure sliding aside of Zelensky's concerns the fact that he's explicitly says in his little post that he didn't talk to Zelensky before this let's just think about this as a common sense matter right you have an ally we're helping Ukraine Ukraine's unjustly attacked you talk to Putin with even not even letting Zelensky know, not even, even though Zelensky's got out of his way to try to be reasonable from Trump's point of view and find ways for Trump to kind of help Ukraine without simply reversing himself. Very, very ominous side, I think. I'm not trying to find silver linings, because I'm not sure how many exist. But two ones I want to throw out. One was they just exchanged – they're not calling it a prisoner exchange, said it was unrealistic that Ukraine would go to the pre-2014 borders.

He could have said the pre-2022 borders, but no one, I think, believes that, it's fairly bleak for Ukraine or people who support Ukraine because, as you know, Zelensky was not privy to this call, or at least not part of it. And remember, the whole stance of the Biden administration was, we cannot negotiate a settlement unless the Ukrainians are at the table. And this was firmly them not at the table. Last thoughts on Tulsi, because I think it's not totally relevant to this, probably as a tertiary news development, but to a degree, it does put a stamp on the idea that we are in a full MAGA foreign policy now. Yeah, I think it is relevant for that. A, it's just bad, in my opinion, for the intelligence community,

the efforts of the United States that she will be director of national intelligence. One Republican voted no. Mitch McConnell, he seems to have reversed 180 degrees somehow. No. Mitch, man. It's crazy, right? to have reversed 180 degrees somehow. No. Mitch, man. Crazy, right? It's the last chapter. Kind of pointless.

I'm glad he is, I guess. It's not pointless. I'm glad he is, but it's sort of sad almost at this point. Does he know what a mistake he made over the last five, six years? Maybe this is his repentance. Yeah, well, I wish it would have more effect, honestly, but I give him credit for it. Yeah, probably. Just wait, Bill. We got our but I give him credit for it. Yeah, probably. Just wait, Bill.

We got our – I give him credit for it. I mean, I think you put your finger on the key thing, which is, I mean, who's dominating Trump's foreign policy? There was hope, has been hope, still is hope. Rubio, deep down, one assumes he's not where MAGA world is. God knows he just capitulates on everything everything and it's kind of appalling. I mean, let's just – hold on. Let's pause on Rubio for a second because I find it like – I find him to be an interesting figure right now. He seems incredibly sidelined, right?

He was basically shoved – USAID was shoved down his throat. He supports USAID or has in the past. This whole enterprise was shoved down his throat and he has to defend the gutting of it. And then he's doing stuff in in south america totally worthy and important uh but his his whole panamanian deal uh turned out to be farce and now he's kind of like a secondary if not tertiary figure in this ukraine uh situation put behind um you know people like uh you know wickkoff and I guess maybe not Kellogg, but it seems like it's Trump negotiating everything, Witkoff basically doing all of the actual legwork of the negotiations. And the actual Secretary of State, I don't know, he's out in the ether somewhere. He's had at least two really appalling MAGA appointments shoved down his throat, anti-policy planning.

And this guy, Bidi, acting undersecretary for public diplomacy. I mean, that one is just mind-blowing, really. And the USAID thing, which is not trivial. That's a large part of the State Department's soft-powered diplomacy, goes through USAID. So, yeah, the whole thing. So Rubio, so people had hopes for Rubio. He's not a player at all people have hopes for mike walsh the national security advisor he and his deputy alex wong

have been walsh flipped about a year ago when he thought he had a chance to get this job but they've been pro-ukraine and more i guess you know less maga ish in their foreign policy views um we'll see what happens there but Walsh also has gone along with stuff and will presumably go along with this. Hexeth, obviously, Gabbard, the two most, wouldn't you say, MAGA, pure MAGA, pure Trump creations. Pure, undistilled MAGA right there.

Not a chance in hell that they could ever get a job like this except from Donald Trump. I mean, the others, whatever you think of them, Rubio, a senator from Florida who'd run for president, Walls, a congressman who served in the military. Not crazy appointments, you know. So those two, the MAGA ones. And this announcement on the heels of Gabbard's confirmation, I agree with that, really makes

you think, and with Hegseth taking a prominent role over in Europe, makes you think, for now at least,'s maga now you know these things aren't trump can go back and forth the one thing i would say that they it's not clear that putin will accept a deal on ukraine even what we would regard i would regard as a very bad deal for ukraine he may feel he's riding high he wants to kind of eat he wants trump to kind of get a he wants to get along with trump so he can sort of sweet-talk Trump, but he also wants to humiliate the US. He certainly wants to humiliate Zelensky, and he wants to conquer all of Ukraine. I mean he's made that very, very clear.

So I just – I go back to Helsinki and his meeting with Trump in Helsinki and how embarrassing it was really for Trump. I mean he didn't obviously feel that way, but he just came out looking so ridiculous. I'm excited to see Poon at Mar-a-Lago. I presume that's where he will be hosted. I wonder, is Trump going to go to, we assume, Moscow, right? I don't know. Putin will take him to one of his many very fancy doshas or something. I don't know.

I don't know. We don't know. This is exciting stuff. We should put a little wager on that. All right, Bill, thanks so much for doing this. Appreciate it. We'll get your thoughts on Kendrick for another day.