Bulwark Takes - We’re in a Very Dangerous Place

Episode Date: September 10, 2025

Tim Miller and Sarah Longwell react to the shooting of conservative commentator and activist Charlie Kirk.

Hey, everybody, Tim Miller from the Bullwark here with our publisher, Sarah Longwell. We have breaking news out of Utah. Charlie Kirk, founder of Turning Point USA, big advocate to President Donald Trump. A fellow podcaster was assassinated. He was shot and killed at Utah Valley University in Orem, Utah, a couple hours ago. Obviously, we'll have more as week goes on. But Sarah, I'm wondering what your initial thoughts are on this. You know, it's been a very hard time in our politics.

because the, I think what many of us feel like is the existential nature of it, it leads to us, everybody feeling like really intense about the moment. But the idea that people are being shot and killed for their political beliefs, for being commentators, you know, it takes it to a different place, like a much darker place, a place that feels like, rather than, then being people who can talk and fight and, you know, are all kind of part of the same country trying to figure out, you know, the best way that we know how, which is through like debate and argument and, you know, and tough politics. But whenever people are being killed over these things, shot at whether it's Gabby Giffords, whether it's Charlie Kirk, whether you

agree with them or disagree with them. it means that we begin to live in a country where it's not, doesn't feel as safe for people to take strong political positions, to have those conversations. And I think that that creates a devastating impact on our discourse. And, you know, I, like Charlie Kirk, we've argued with him on the show. He's like put pictures of us or video of us on his show. Like these, we were, we were not intellectual outlets. allies at all. But he is a young man. He's 31 with small kids. And I just feel really sad for them, for his family. And I feel like frightened the way that I sometimes feel now in this, all of all of the politics where it just feels like we're moving into a moment. We're like, you know, because Charlie, here's the thing, man, you know, look, I didn't like a lot of his politics, but he was just he was he was out talking to people in a in a crowd and he was being very

accessible to them like a lot of us are and he know he was miced up but he was just under a little tent and he was sort of taking all comers right he was taking people's questions and he was answering them and I think that um a lot of us put ourselves in that same those same kinds of situations with strangers all the time um doing this stuff and that that somebody would shoot him I don't know it it's awful and it it makes you really just scare about the moment that we're living in. I don't know. What do you think?

It's scary. I'm frightened. It's scary. It's a couple of thoughts to your thing. Well, just first on Charlie. He has two young kids, as you mentioned. He's a kid that just turned one, a son that just turned one. He's a daughter that's three.

I mean, those kids, like those kids deserve to have their dad. Those kids deserve to have their dad. And they, they, they, they, he should not be taken from them because somebody at a political, we don't actually know who the suspect is. I should mention the suspect that's still at large. We think there was some video going around earlier of a man that was detained that turns out that was just, you know, like gadfly that shows up to political events. So we don't actually know who the perpetrator is, but for whatever reason, for political reasons, and obviously his political reason, it was an assassination, it wasn't a mass shooting. He shot just to Charlie. So the idea that he'd be snuffed out for his political views and those kids would be denied their father and that Eric could be denied.

her husband is horrible. And the other thing I'll say about Charlie, to your point, and I dealt with Charlie, I went to TPSA events, talked to him sometimes there. He knew that we disagreed. He knew that I was passionately in disagreement with him. He was somebody that would have passionate disagreements. Is that what we should have in the country? I mean, as you mentioned, at that event, he was doing it.

And in this fucking dark moment, he was receiving a hostile question, actually, as he got shot. And the question was about mass shooting. And, like, that's where we are in this country. that somebody's asking him to respond about mass shootings, and he's killed while that question is asked. And that takes me to your point about people feeling free to say what they want, because this is not a free country. I understand people use the term free country a lot about having gun rights in particular, but you aren't in a free country if you can't feel safe to express your views, whether they be far right or far left or in the middle or pro-Trump or anti-Trump. you're not in a free country if you have to feel fear to go out and have an exchange of views with people disagree with you and and charlie for his like mistaken political views he had was out

there doing that was trying to represent what america should be about and having a free country and having people challenge him and and he's killed over it and i just i think that we are headed to a very we're in a very dangerous place and it's spiraling you know and it's not The first time we had in this country, both of us, it's kind of before our time. We never really lived through a time of like mass political assassinations. We lived through a time of violence and school shootings and such. But, you know, in the 70s that this country has been through this before and come out of it. So it doesn't mean we can't come out of it.

But to be in that world now, again, where in addition to all the other problems that the country faces, you have this political violence that to me, I don't, God willing, I'm wrong. But it feels like this is an escalating thing, right? it's like there's a view of, you know, who knows? I don't even want to put it into the universe, but like that other, that people feel like this is good, you know,

that they cheer it or that other people feel like they want retribution for it. I, any of those thoughts, like to me is just totally wrong and, and hateful. And I know it's very challenging given the political environment or in particular with this president, but like,

you know, we can't, we can't live in a real America, in a real country where everybody, everybody can expect to be able to live, you know, have life and have the ability to go pursue happiness and these fundamental American ideals. You can't do that if we're going to be having vigil anti-killings. And this is just the way, I mean, again, those attempts on Trump, there have been other examples like you mentioned. The Minnesota one that happened recently? They went to those people's houses. How horrible was that? They went to their house.

I mean, Nancy Pelosi's husband, like this is happening more and more often. It knows no partisanship, the shooting of the United Health CEO, like these types of assassinations or attempts on, attempts to hurt people because you disagree with their politics, it is a problem across, across. the country and everybody should, you should feel passionately and you should fight hard for what you believe in. And you should try to persuade people. But we can't have these debates effectively. Donald Trump already tries to chill speech with threats and intimidation. And if people just feel like there's vigilantes out there assassinating pundits and politicians,

you know, all it's going to do is scare people from saying what they think. I don't, I mean. And give them, actually, and here's the thing I just want to say, and give it the fascist more power. That's what this does. That's what this really does. It gives people, it gives authoritarian people, you don't want to take rights away from people more power because it removes even more people from the public space. And we don't want to live scared. Nobody wants to live scared.

And you don't, because it is like that big balls, you know, getting that, that's part of the reason now there's National Guard stationed all over the city, right? Like, these things spiral. They build on themselves. And like, it's very hard. It's hard to, to want to de-escalate at a time when you're like, but the other side is escalating so much and the stakes are so high and all of that stuff. But, like, it is not hard to have a single North Star. just don't do violence. Don't do violence.

That's why we have free speech. We have free speech. So we have an outlet for everything and we don't do violence. And so I just, I guess I would ask people in these moments, like, you don't have to like what Charlie Kirk stood for. You don't have to like who he was as a person. But just remember, he was a person. And these are the moments where we should make sure that people are just their best selves. And remember he's a person, remember he as a family, remember he has kids,

and that you don't want this to happen to anybody. I do think it's worth saying, obviously I endorse all of that. I do want to say one thing about guns because, I don't know, like after Charlie Kirk was assassinated, there's another, there's a school shooting in Colorado, another one. Like the first, the school shooting that prompted all this was right down the street from my house. else happened when I was in high school happened a quarter century ago now how many of these have happened in fucking Colorado so having an evergreen there's we don't and at least a couple kids have been shot we don't know what happened but like you know I got frustrated at the debate

around this following the Donald Trump assassination attempt that it became all about tone you know and all about like oh is you know is the is the rhetoric too hot out there and I guess my view is I don't And I don't want dehumanizing rhetoric. I don't want any rhetoric out there that takes away people's humanity, whether that be trans people or whether that be MAGA podcast hosts. I don't want dehumanizing rhetoric. But like hot rhetoric's okay, right? Like competitive rhetoric, talking about what you want the country to be and speaking passionately about it and criticizing the other side is good. Like Donald Trump deserved criticism.

Any politician deserves criticism. And that debate over the rhetoric to me like overshadowed this thing of like this. kid that kid that tried to murder him was get an easy access to weapons was able to go buy bullets on his way there was able to get up on that roof and try to shoot him like that's what how it was not about everything that we've learned since about that young man was like that attempt wasn't even really about politics we don't know what happened on choy kirk but what it was about was his easy access to munitions and like we live in a country if you live in a country where we have this level of proliferation of weapons of war and you also have really intense

political debates and intense speech and there's no curtailing of those of access to those weapons there's no even limiting factor that makes people fucking breathe 24 hours or think about it or you know then like these things like that I just think that underscores a big part of why we're here and anyway I just wanted to say that because I think that in these moments you know we've kind of given up in this country I guess I'm trying to resolve that a lot of the politicians have and I don't think I don't want to I don't think that's smart and I think that unfortunately we can fix a lot of the other things but there's always going to be crazy people and if there are crazy people who have easy access to these weapons and there's no remedy for that be a red flag or

anything else, then I don't know, man, I don't, that, that, those two factors combined have us in a pretty bad spot. So that's all I wanted to say about that. Do you have anything else? No, just, you know, be good to each other out there. Be good to each other. I do want to say, once again, as I mentioned, every year, I had this joke that, you know, the movie Catch me if you can.

Yeah. I had this joke about how Tom Hanks and Leo in that movie would see each other every Christmas. It was like the gag. And they were like one was, they were kind of, they were sort of counterparties in a, in a fight. And some of me and Charlie saw each other every Christmas because it was when he had his big thing. And I would go and I would see him. And I texted this morning a couple of the people that worked for him. And again, it's just like, I had deep disagreements with what they were doing at that festival. but to him and the people around him, at least some of them cared about that and they had a community and they allowed me to come in there

and spar with them verbally and they did so in good spirits. And, you know, it's just sometimes important to think about these people as actual humans. And in that sense, it is a scary moment for somebody who is publicly out there talking, but I'm also sad for the people that I'm out there and for his family and his kids.

So I'll leave it at that. All right, everybody. We'll probably have more about this on the podcast tomorrow. And there's a lot of other news we're talking about too. And we'll be talking to you soon.