Bulwark Takes - What It Was Like To Face Off Against Nancy Pelosi (w/ Barbara Comstock)

Episode Date: November 6, 2025

Sam Stein, Jonathan Cohn, and former Congresswoman Barbara Comstock take on Nancy Pelosi’s retirement—her unmatched record as Speaker, her behind-the-scenes power, and what her exit means for the Democratic Party.

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We'll offer some service in English and in French. Book an initial session online or in person in Toronto at 790 Bay Street. Visit cFIR.ca. Hey, everybody. It's me. Sam Stein, managing editor at the Bullwark. And I am joined today by Jonathan Cohn, who is the author of our newsletter, The Breakdown, here at the Bullock, and former congresswoman Barbara Comstock, who is gracious enough to give us her time on this lovely fall day. We are gathered here at this weird gathering.

because earlier this morning, former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi announced that she is going to be retiring from Congress. She's going to serve out her current term. And then she's going to leave, heading back to San Francisco, ending what we could probably say is one of the most influential,

if not the most influential career in Congress. Certainly one of the most impactful speakers in the history of that chamber. And we're here to talk about that legacy and to share some stories. So first of all, thank you both for doing this. Really appreciate it. Barbara, you serve with her.

So I do want to start. with you. Obviously, you served. You were a Republican from Northern Virginia. You were on that Bellwether District area. She was targeting your seat probably the entire time. And she could be ruthless politically. Let's just be honest about it. But I'm curious just for your reflections about what she was like as a public figure and then as a private individual. Well, first of all, I was a staffer in the 90s. So early in her career, so going way back, because I worked for Frank Wolf, you know, the congressman I ended up replacing, she was on our hall. So when she was just a pretty new Congresswoman, she was friendly with Frank Wolf because they both worked on

against China, you know, against MFN for China. So she would come into our office. I didn't work on not issue too much for him. Another staffer did, but she would be in our office often. So obviously she was, everyone knew she was very liberal, but my very conservative boss agreed with her on that issue. So they were allies on that issue in the early 90s and worked together on it. So, you know, I saw, you know, she's 85. My mom's just a little older.

You know, my mom was a really young mom. She was obviously a young mom. But here she was always this very put-together, polythe, you know, member of Congress. I was a young mom at that point, you know, usually kind of like, how could she be so put together all the time? And she was very gracious, you know, and obviously we knew she wasn't on our side on much of anything else.

So that was a good, you know, impression at that point. And then, you know, then we've gotten the majority after that. Now, you know, fast forward, I then in the 90s worked on impeachment and staff and all the investigations, you know, was pretty much in a partisan mode as a staffer, went on to work on the Bush campaign and things. So by the time I got into Congress, yes, I was a, like the top target, every one of my races. So when I came in as a member of Congress, Judy Woodruff had this lovely party for all the female members of Congress. And actually, my friend Debbie Dingell was there, and we had a group of Republican members who were there, Debbie was in my class, and Judy was introducing everybody. And she said to the group, she goes, well, a lot of you may not know this, but Barbara Comstock before she was here was chief counsel on the government reform committee where, you know, she investigated everybody.

And he was there, very audibly said, oh, we know. And it was kind of like, whoa, this is going to be fun. So while I was there in Congress, no, it was not, you know, because she had spent a lot of money to defeat me in that race. And then again, I was the top target in 16, which I did survive that race, even though she had spent a lot of money against my opponent. But then in 17, sexual harassment legislation, the Me Too movement came through. And Debbie Dingle and I and other female members, we worked on that legislation together. And then it was at that moment, finally, someone who I don't think we hadn't had any discussions at that point. You know, I was still, you know, I was still the top target in 16.

I ended up being the top target in 18, too. millions were spent. I think, yeah, if I went back and looked, it was 10, 15, 18, I don't know, millions. But at that, when we were on the floor on the sexual harassment bill, when she was thanking the people that worked on it, I was the Republican member kind of working on there.

She did say my name almost under her breath, but it was very nice and I was kind of. But since then, since I've been out of Congress and she did, you know, obviously, She was very gracious in how she worked on the January 6th committee with Liz Cheney, even when members said, I don't think you necessarily want to have Liz Cheney on that committee, but she and Liz, you know, had that fabulous friendship, and obviously that worked very well. We have since had post-congressional, very friendly encounters.

So I have to say, I am one of those who, and even when I was in Congress, you know, and I think even Marjorie Taylor Green has said this. you know, today or yesterday, you know, boy, we wish we had somebody as effective Nancy Pelosi. And like everybody else, when I was running against her, I did have a flyer that said, you know, elect this, you know, when we were trying to be in the majority, I guess in 14 when I first ran, it's like, vote for this woman so you don't have this woman, Nancy Pelosi, speaker. So, you know, we all did that. She was a foil for everybody. But it was also because we knew how formidable she was. Jonathan, how would you describe public figure and lawmaker?

And she wasn't the most articulate, elegant speaker. Let's be honest about it. But she was perhaps the most effective legislator that I've covered. How would you assess that element of her legacy? I mean, look, I think she is a case study in that the criteria for a successful speaker, legislative leader, is not what they do in front of the cameras. It's what they do. when the cameras are not on there. She's incredibly effective. You know, we, if you think about her record, she passed, you know, major signature legislation

with narrow majorities in two presidencies, right? Obama presidency, Biden presidency. She was instrumental in blocking legislation into Republican, you know, I mean, she was instrumental in blocking repeal of the Affordable Care Act in 2017. And if you go all the way back to the, first to the Bush administration, second Bush 43, when he was trying to do Social Security privatization, she was instrumental in sort of stiffening the spines of Democrats and keeping them

together and blocking that. And that's sort of an episode. People forget now, there was a, you know, that was a very big, that came very close to happening. I mean, that was a serious proposal that had serious momentum when Bush had just gotten reelected in 2005. And, you know, it was a combination, I think of doing all the little things of blocking and tackling in Congress that doesn't, you know, it's not the things that get you on TV or that doesn't get talked about on social media, but, you know, being so attentive to the needs of every single one of her members, knowing each district so well, building up trust, being methodical, having an incredible amount of energy. I mean, Sam, I don't know if you ever got to follow her around when reporting on her.

I did. I got to shadow her once, and she's exhausting. And, you know, here's someone. I mean, I was not, I think I'm trying to think when this was. This was a while ago, but at least half her age. Well, maybe not half her. But it was backwards and in heels, right? Yes, in backwards and in heels.

And, you know, she's, I remember very distinctly, I was fine. It was one of those nights when there was one of the shutdown. I don't remember if it ended in a shutdown or not. But this would have been around 2013, I was around 2013, maybe. and it was like 11.30, she'd done a whole day. I was, like, shadowing her and her staff, and she was back in her office. I was exhausted.

And she's on the phone. She's making more calls. She's like, she's going to set up another meeting with someone. And I'm like, I don't know how she does it. And then, you know, she's tough. I mean, she just stands her ground. And I think that's something else that has been, you know, she's cemented, I think, in a lot of people's minds as a kind of figure of the old

establishment that the Democrats need to get passed. And that's true. But she has a record of kind of strong stands when she thought she had to draw the line that were very influential and really shaped legislation, shaped the history of the party over the years. And I think that ends up sort of reinforcing itself because when you get a reputation for being that kind of person and being that strong and taking those stands, your members see that and they remember that. And then the next time they're more inclined to follow you. Yeah, I would just add there's two stories to that point, which is she was obviously very shrewd.

She would, things were always incredibly planned in how she attacked various legislation, pieces of legislation or moments. So one anecdote is during the Iraq War, and this was I believe covered in Molly Ball's book, which people should buy. But during the Iraq War, things are like, you know, are completely divided over what to do about this. But it's clear that the war is going in a bad direction. And Jack Murtha, the former congressman from Pennsylvania, who is a very influential voice of military matters for the party, has decided privately he's going to come out against

the war. And this, everyone remembers this was a big deal when he ultimately did it. And Murtha comes out and he says, you know, he had voted for the authorization, he had turned, he realized that it had been a mistake. He comes out. He starts a very public, aggressive campaign against the war. And Pelosi is supportive, but she's not actually publicly supportive. She's not like there with the guy as he's doing this. And he's taking a lot of arrows and he's in the public fray and the Bush people are going after him. And she's just sort of to the side. And people are starting to wonder, what is she doing? Like she's leaving, letting this man get pummeled. And they had actually decided prior to that that it would that he was going to do this himself that had she been attached to

his effort has she been seen as aligning with him on this or even boosting him in any way it would have sapped credibility from what he was doing and no matter what kind of punches he had to take it was more beneficial for the anti-war cause if he was there alone so that was sort of a shrewd decision the other thing was and then people don't actually appreciate it i don't believe which is she only lost one vote she ever brought to the floor which is crazy You look at how many Republicans lose. I know, I was going to say it's like, you know, Paul Ryan and Kevin McCarthy are probably like, oh, my God, how. But the vote was for TARP.

And if, and I remember, I mean, it was obviously very historic and it was depicted in, you know, movies and all that stuff. But Hank Paulson has to get on his knees and beg her to bring TARP back up because it failed. And it wasn't her fault. And she took a lot of anger about the fact that it failed because she had this perfect. record. But what happened was John Boehner had promised a certain number of Republicans, Eric Cantor had gotten squishy, not a lot of Republicans came on, and they didn't have the votes because the Republicans didn't come through. And she really was bothered by it. She was like, you know, she wanted her perfect record. She didn't want to be at fault. Ultimately, she did bring

TARP back up and it did pass. But those are my, those are two of my many Nancy Pelosi anecdotes that gets to how calculating shrewd but also effective she was. I don't know if you have any similar ones, Barbara. Well, I mean, you know, she's certainly cited as an incredible fundraiser, but what fundraising really is about its relationships, too, people don't, I mean, I just think it's fundraising, but her relationship, you know, building was so good. And I can tell you from inside the Republican caucus, you know, she was certainly the, you know, always, you know, scorned like, oh, yeah, she doesn't know what she's doing. And it's like, what do you mean she doesn't know what

she's doing. She's beating you guys all the time. Do they really think that of her? You know, in votes. Why don't we get our act together and do as well? You know, you might not agree with her on issues, but she had it together. And it was those, you know, years of relationship. You remember, she was the one who had to go and tell Biden that it was time to go. None of the guys would do it. And she sat there in the room and said, you know, when the guys were, were saying, oh, but the polls say, I'm good. And she's saying, what pollsters? What pollsters are saying, you bring me those guys?

And she knew the polls. She knew what was going on. And when I heard, you know, the way she handled that and did that, she didn't go out and do it in an ugly way. She handled that so well. And that was so hard to do. And she was doing that in a way that wasn't mean or not. I mean, she was being like kind of a nice grandmother doing it to a

somebody who, you know, she didn't want to do that, but none of the guys were stepping up and doing it. No other grownups in the room who would do it. And that's, I mean, she has been here in a time when whether it is Trump or Schumer or any of these other guys won't stand up and do the right thing. And she has been the grown up at this time. Grab a coffee and discover nonstop action with Bud MGM Casino. Check out our hottest exclusive.

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please contact Connix Ontario at 1866-531, 2,600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. But MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. She definitely took the idea of being the grown up in the room and ran with it. I mean, it wasn't just Biden, although that did fray the relationship. And the Biden people were really angry. And she knew it would. I mean, she had to. Yeah.

And she had to do it. But if people forget early on when AOC and the squad were just coming on the scene, they wanted to like really make a name for themselves and not play by the usual, you know, rule book. And I forget the actual vote that they did, but they tried to have some sort of immigration, I believe it was immigration. They put up some vote and they had a kind of a quasi-rebellion. And Pelosi just sort of like said, nah, we're not going to do that way.

And then I think the quote was, you know, they had four votes. It was the squad. And the quote was something like, all these people have their public whatever in their Twitter world. Again, she wasn't the most like eloquent speaker. But they don't have any following. They're four people and that's how many votes they got. And it was just like sticking in the knife in a way. Well, when she got everyone to line up with her because of those years of relationship,

the years of her showing up at their fundraiser, her doing all those things. Jonathan, talk a little bit about how that helped her with, I mean, the most critical thing, obviously, was saving Obamacare, which was, and you wrote about this in your book, and it's great,

everyone should buy his book, too. But that was, I mean, she really did save the bill. She did. She totally saved the bill. And, you know, she saved it in two ways. She got the bill together, which, I mean, just people, that thing almost fell apart, like,

seven times, you know, between when it started and when they finally passed it. And a lot of the exercise was the realization that what the house, you know, it was a split, the House was a more liberal, the Senate was more conservative, and getting her liberal house members to understand that they were going to have to vote for something they didn't like. It was going to be well short of what they wanted because it was the only way to get something through. And, you know, that happened a couple different times early.

there was, you know, she had to basically get the Democratic, the caucus to vote for abortion restrictions attached to the insurance plans, which was, you know, she was a, you know, a staunch defender of abortion rights, most of our caucus was. And she basically had to go to them and say, you know, she had to fight, she had to, you know, she had to get them to kind of agree to that. And then much later on, after, you know, later in the debate, that she had to get the House to vote for the final Senate version, which was much weaker than the version they had passed. And in both cases, I think what had allowed her to do that was she spent a lot of time publicly and privately angry on behalf, you know, sort of fighting the liberal fight in ways that I think she knew she wasn't going to get what she wanted, but sort of, you know, going out there and fighting and sort of, you know, showing that she was out there fighting so that when she went to her caucus, there was a very famous moment in when they first passed the first version of the bill, when she brings in a bunch of very close friends and allies who are staunch abortion rights supporters into her office. office and she said, you need to vote for this. She says, this is my whip list. These are my,

this is the vote count. I cannot do any better than that. And the reason they go along with her, and they were really upset. And they, it was real, it was a tough vote was they believed when Nancy Pelosi said, I can't move this list anymore. I tried my best. They believed her. And they said, okay, if you, if you've told us, we trust you, we believe you, then we're going to go along with it. And then, of course, the other moment is, you know, uh, is, you know, is, you know, As they got to the final stages of the debate, the House had passed their version. The Senate had passed their version. They were trying to compromise, work out a middle-the-road possibility.

Democrats lose a special election in Massachusetts. Now they don't have a filibuster-proof majority. The only way to pass the law is to basically the House has to pass what the Senate had passed, which they hate. And they were like 40 votes down. And I remember getting phone calls for like weeks. And people are like, this thing is dead because there is no way. Nancy Pelosi can get 40 no votes to turn to yes, but she did. And it was the same thing.

She had fought so hard for the things that the House Democrats wanted that when she went to them one by one and said, look, I can't do better than this. Here's something I can do for you. They listened. They believed her. She made a very big, you know, there was a kind of subplot going on there in the Obama White House because Rahm Emanuel, still around in politics today, who was her Obama's chief of staff. He was ready to cut a deal.

He was always, he thought this whole thing was a political albatross. He's like, screw it, let's just do like a really tiny expansion of health insurance. And even, like, floated it in the Wall Street Journal. And Pelosi basically went ballistic on it. Privately, she said, made comments publicly. She's like, we don't want any part of this teeny weenie bill. And number one, it got, you know, Rom had to kind of cease and desist mostly. Because he was wrong.

But not possible. Impossible. But at the same time, I think, again, for the liberal members of her caucus who were like not happy about this, you know, they were, part of that was we think we can do better if we hold out. They saw her fighting for this. They're like, so when Nancy Pelosi comes to me and says, I can't do any better, I'm going to believe that. And of course, the conservatives in her caucus see that she's making this compromise. And they say, okay, I see you're coming to me. So I'm going to stick with it too. And that's, you know, I mean, that's how you do things in Congress. let me just uh i want to nobody does that anymore i mean that is yeah right yeah right i mean that's true i mean it's such a like lost art i feel i mean and you you you know it's obviously much better than i do because you're in congress but that's just the extent to which now so many members in both houses it's all about you know getting hits that get you the funds and whatever and the sort of old-fashioned it just it it's it's an it's an art that seems to be i don't know vanishing i want to talk a bit about the Trump years because, I mean, she shepherds the party through the Obama years. Obviously,

they lose the house in 2010. And she doesn't get back into power into the speakership until 2018. I mean, that's a long time to stay around in the minority and just persist, obviously. Trump comes back on the scene. And, you know, we have this kind of like, you know, there's like these iconic moments with her and Trump where she's in the Oval Office and she's like that famous photo where she's like pointing at him. She says like all roads lead to Russia with you. And then you have the sunglasses outside of the Oval Office where she goes and she briefs.

And then of course the ripping up of the state of the union speech. And then impeachment, which she shepherded it twice. But ultimately, and I mean, it's just the reality is that she, towards the end of the career, her objective was to make sure that Trump never got back to power. And he did. He did. And that's where we're sitting right now with him in power. And I don't know if she's talked to about that, Barbara, or if you have thoughts on that,

but to what degree do you think that weighs on her? Yeah, I does, you know, and I think, you know, I'm thinking last year when I saw her before the election and talking to her about it, I, you know, she's so good at vote counting. She's, you know, she was out there working so hard. I certainly did think this would be, you know, kind of her swan song that that would happen. And so this is certainly a challenge. So certainly this week to see two of her class of 2018 women now rise to be governor. That has to be somewhat, that is part of her legacy.

And I have to say, no, I supported both of the women, but Abigail Spamberger is a good friend too. So I think, you know, this gets longer and dragged out than anyone wanted. And Trump is a formidable nemesis, and it is a challenge. But I think her legacy will be a longer one. And certainly, I mean, look, she's been in the scene for 40 years, and she actually has accomplishments that are there. Obviously, Trump has a lot more complication to it. But, no, that's certainly him getting back into power by not getting out soon enough

all of that problem there is, but you look at the legislation that was passed and actually getting things done, which is, you know, if you're a legislator, that's usually what you want to do. I mean, for example, the only MS-13 bill that Trump ever signed was one that John Cornyn and I did for all the talk of these other guys. They didn't, you know, and Trump probably doesn't even know that. And he signed sexual harassment legislation that, you know, Nancy Pelosi and I were down there, you know, working on together. So, you know, these are things that they don't care about and that aren't their priorities. But, you know, it is amazing that we're living in these times where legislation

and getting things done is not a priority. And that's a sad time. But I think this week you saw, you know, certainly when you don't do what you say you're going to do, there still is a natural revulsion to that. And you can't continue to try and fool all of the people all the time. And you can't keep telling people, as Biden found out, and now Trump is finding out, you can't tell them, things are costing less when they aren't. People don't like tariffs and people don't like what he's doing right now. And they don't even like that he's destroying the White House and doing these things and having lavish parties while they're not doing well. So all the people who voted for Trump are going to be the people who are hurt. So I think a lot of the things that Trump is fighting against

he's going to be hoisted on his own pittard here at the end of the day. I will say, yeah, the legacy she leaves is going to outlast Trump, some of it at least, a good chunk of it. I will remember her, I suppose, for her love of Gior della chocolates. And weirdly, for hot dogs, she really liked hot dogs. I don't understand that, but that was her food of choice. and yeah obviously more than that she has a very accomplished legacy someone said she was an iron fist in a Gucci glove which i think sums it up jonathan any last thoughts no i mean i think she goes down as probably the most effective speaker of the modern era um uh for sure and i similarly am in awe that someone with that diet could be in such good shape at that age and you know what do you

think of that when she what she slipped and broke her should have hip replacement and yet she stood up and was in that picture with everybody i mean the resilience that she has and i since i have a mother who is of that same generation who is in the same way just she just keeps going the energizer bunny it is amazing uh that generation and what they you know people who raised kids and did everything well she also had a vicious attack on her husband in a home invasion and she and she went and you know she obviously persisted after that anyways barbara comstock thank you so much jonathan cohen thank you for sharing your reporting thoughts on uh nate supposedly who announced again that she will be retiring at the end of this term in office bringing to an end of 40 year

career uh and the first female speaker in our country's history for conversations like this recollections and reporting please subscribe to the bulwark where we have great great talks like this. Thank you guys both. We'll see you soon.