CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Breaking the Pattern of Dysfunction with Kelly U

Episode Date: April 16, 2024

In this episode of the Calling Home Podcast, Whitney Goodman interviews health and wellness influencer Kelly Uchima about her journey of reconciling with her father and breaking the pattern of dysfunction in her family. Kelly shares how she was the first in her family to recognize her father's narcissism and the negative impact it had on her mental health and relationships. She discusses the cultural practice of sweeping family issues under the rug to maintain the illusion of a perfect family unit.  Follow Kelly on Instagram @kellyu Have a question for Whitney? Call Home at 866-225-5466.  Visit Mindhappy.com and use HOME15 for 15% off first monthly subscription! Click here to get “Toxic Positivity” on paperback.  Join Whitney’s Family Cycle Breakers Club for further support and discussion on family dynamics at CallingHome.co. Follow the Calling Home community on Instagram or TikTok.  Follow Whitney Goodman on Instagram or TikTok.  The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice or other medical advice or services, is not a substitute for advice from a qualified healthcare provider, and does not create any therapist-patient or other treatment relationship between you and Calling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home’s Terms of Service. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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A day of sunshine? No. A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol and select markets. Product availability may vary by Regency app for details. My guest today is Kelly Uchima, a health and wellness influencer and host of the Therapy Thursday podcast who's here to share her story of reconciling with her father and breaking the pattern she adopted from her dysfunctional family life. I'm Whitney Goodman. Welcome to the Calling Home podcast. I'm glad you're here. My conversation with Kelly is really interesting because it starts out with her being really the only family member to recognize her father's narcissism as well as the dysfunctional family dynamics that had affected her throughout her life. She talks about how it affects her romantic relationships, her eating disorder, and other issues that she dealt with with her mental health.

And something we've touched on the show before is that in some cultures, families being unable to accept issues and sweeping problems under the rug is common practice in order to avoid feeling the shame or guilt that comes with encountering those problems within the home. And the desire to keep up the external as well as the internal illusion of like the perfect family you. unit is often upheld at the cost of individual family members' well-being. I think the inspiring and maybe ironic part of Kelly's story is how she began dealing with the dysfunction and healing from it and working towards a relationship with her father was by sharing her personal life on the internet, which has led to her current work and healthier lifestyle living in total authenticity. I'm so excited for you to hear this conversation between Kelly and I, and as always, don't forget that you can join us this month inside the family cycle breakers

club at callinghome.co and even attend a group with me. I hope you enjoy the episode. You know, I was looking through your Instagram because you have a lot of great posts of you with your dad, you know, traveling and doing all this stuff together now. And you've, you wrote something that stood out to me that you said, a part of me wishes that my dad had been more present for me when I needed him most growing up, but he just couldn't. Nothing will ever make up for lost time, but watching him actually put in the work has helped me forgive and understand. And I... Oh, I forgot. I wrote that. Yeah. I thought that was so beautiful. And, you know, just to start off, like, I'd love to hear in your own words about your process of getting to this place

where you wanted to work on your relationship with your dad and you had this realization that things weren't the way you wanted them to be. Yeah, I never thought that we would get to a place where I'd feel that there are positive things to say. I think from a young age, I figured I will always be close to my mom. I will never be close to my dad. I don't care if he dies. And I remember saying very intense things like that, not out of dramatization. Like I meant it. I felt as if he was no longer around, it would make my life easier because when I would look at him growing up, even as a teenager in my early 20s, I would just see everything he couldn't be and all the problems he was causing me, my sister, my mom, and the family. And as I got older and

learned about how I started to recreate those patterns in my romantic relationships and I ended up dating someone that had a lot of symptoms of the way my dad used to be, it's shocking that I'll say this, but he is not done a complete 180, I would say like a 130, 140. He has changed so much. And I think a lot of us hear the word narcissist thrown around constantly. And we feel like that's a word we can only use with our therapist or our friends or people who understand, but that's actually a term I began using with him and said, hey, I don't know if you know this. I think you have narcissistic personality disorder. And that was a few years ago and he had not evolved at all. And I was met with the most anger and defensiveness and shut down. And he, I had this role in

my family where I was always trying to point out just truths. And I was viewed as a problem maker, a potterer. But I'll say now, he ended up watching like a bunch of YouTube videos about narcissist, realized it ran in his family and he like apologized. And, you know, it's not as easy and simple as that, but that's a little overview, I guess. Yeah. I think your experience of, like, hearing you say, like, he watched videos and he apologized and he saw this is something that I hear over and over again from people of like, that's what I want. That's what I wish could happen. And when you and I were starting to talk at the beginning, I think you said, like, I never thought I would be on this side of things. No. And there's so many sources. And there's so many sources.

And rightfully so, therapists and readings that say a narcissist can never change. And I remember my therapist that I was seeing a long time ago when I was told that my partner struggled with the same things, narcissistic tendencies. They said they cannot change that, but they can change their behavior if they want to. And I was like, well, my dad's not the type. So I guess he proved me wrong. But it was a lot of me having to really... lead the family. And that sucked. Really sucked. Tell me about that process of you deciding to lead and

what you did. I think like a lot of people who start therapy were learning so many insane things that we feel like everyone should know. We can't believe we've been roaming the earth like idiots. That's how I felt. You know, I went in for binge eating disorder. And then my therapist started digging into all this other stuff and I was so angry because I felt like she was invading my space and pointing out things that had to my knowledge had nothing to do with my struggles. It was all about me. I'm the problem. It's my eating disorder. And I wanted my family to know because I think my eating disorder felt like it was my fault and they never made me feel like that. But I started saying, oh my gosh, this is so cool, right? Like this is why this and you're messed up. So I'm messed up.

And any parent hearing that, who's never had those in-depth conversations or reflections, most often they're just going to hate you for it. And I still battle that a lot of the time with my sister, my dad, and my mom because it just feels like I'm over-analizing them. But I kind of want to just validate any of us who are truth seekers and want to know ourselves more like, that's fine, but we will have to kind of self-soothe ourselves when we want to do that to other people. So I basically was just trying to educate them. And I, maybe after a few years of just a lot of, they did thank me. They did listen. They did acknowledge, but there was

so much resistance that I decided that I would just keep these gems to myself. And what's interesting about that period of time is I feel like that's when they started to just grow a little bit on their own because I wasn't there to hold their hand. Yeah, you're so right about that part in the process where you're in therapy and you're excited about everything you're learning, right? Like, things are finally making sense to you. And it's like, oh, my gosh, I have to share this and tell people about it. But often, they're like 20 steps behind you, right? Like, they don't want to know these things sometimes. They're not aware that it's even happening. And so there is a little bit of like whiplash and that waiting period, it sounds like, and I'm glad you

said, like, this was years. It didn't happen overnight. where you had these realizations, you shared them with your family members, and they were like, yeah, now we want to get on board. I will say, don't worry, guys. Only my sister went to therapy. My parents never did. So we never took that step. So don't feel like you're too behind. As much as I've talked about my therapy and have gone and paid my dues, they have never once stepped into that arena. And that's okay. Yeah. I've learned to say that's okay. I think it is okay. It's like how much of the process do you want to control? You're worried about the outcome, right? How can we make our relationship better? And sometimes we have to let people get there in the way that they want to get there. And we take our path and hope that we can meet at the end. I think that's a really good reminder. It was a lot of control. And my whole life was based on me wanting to get in control. There was so much fighting in my house growing up. My parents were always just bad. and I wanted to always come to my mom's rescue.

So I learned to have anorexia and binge eating disorder and bulimia and exercise addiction. And then I was addicted to marijuana and numbing out. Everything in my life was about coding things, band-aids, numbing, and obviously now I don't have any of that. I don't struggle with any of that, but that's because of the treacherous work of therapy to unearth all the reasons why I was doing any of it. I think by me also opening up all that to them, I don't think they even know that I had all these struggles because of a childhood thing. Like, it's really hard to wrap your head around because

they're not living my life. How would they know? Yeah, it's so true. And you're talking about things that are like, you are the identified patient, right? It's easy for parents to say, oh, well, you have this problem, you know, even though you are from what you're mapping out for me. Now it's like I can see that there was dysfunction and it was manifesting in me in these ways because I couldn't manage it in any other way. I mean, a lot of kids look for mechanisms of control like that, right? But I think in that case, it's hard as a parent or a family member to say, how are we contributing to this when you could just say, oh, well, you know, she's sick or she has this

problem. That's often safer. And it's a lot of shame that my parents especially, so I'm Asian. My mom is Chinese. My dad is Japanese. And a lot of older generations in general carry such all these generations of shame and shut your mouth and don't show your true colors, especially in their cultures. It was all about saving face. So even amongst a child to a parent, they never wanted to lose face with me. If I ever noticed something that they felt I was pointing out a fly or a shortcoming, they could not even listen. They would immediately shut me out. That's such a good point. I mean, what other ways do you feel like your culture or the differences between the world you were living in and your parents' world played in this rift that you had

between you and your dad especially? I had so much access to things that I didn't even really no existed until I was like really in dire need of looking for them. So I was 19 in college, struggling, juggling school, two jobs, an internship, dying in student debt, just like binging every single night to figure out a way to make it through. And I remember my partner at the time, he was like, I think you should try therapy. And I was like, no, like, what do you mean like mm-mm and the only reason I could go was because they offered three free sessions at the counseling center at my college and that's what I always try to recommend to people to just look for resources that are free in the beginning at least whether it's like a

drop-in support group I used to go to a binge eater's support group that was five dollars if you could or if it was if not it was just free for you to walk in it was so much of that that I really needed in the first few years of my struggles. And when I told my parents about it, they were terrified because to them, what it meant was something's wrong. And sure, okay, at the time, I also felt like something was wrong. But there was never any discussions about deeper feelings or struggles back when my eating disorder started when I was 10. So a lot of my culture is sweeping things under the rug, making sure that everyone views you in a positive of light and staying happy.

And that didn't work for me. Yeah, you brought up, you know, shame and and keeping things hidden. And it's so interesting because now a lot of your career is really built around you being authentic and open on the internet. And I'm wondering, like, how has that impacted these relationships? So interesting that every person's different. So my parents love it the most, which is shocking. That's funny. Yeah. Right. And I think it's because they can see how as I began to be my real self, it allowed them to. And internally, they probably feel freed from that. And then, you know, proud that their kid at least is doing something that makes money. I don't know. Like, makes them happy. And it's like being honest. Like, I don't know. But my sibling finds it to be really kind of,

jolting and exposing and it makes total sense because it's essentially me sharing our story because as siblings yes you are two individuals but you're talking about familial troubles childhood trauma it feels like they're basically just sharing your story and we've had a lot of deep conversations and i've like had to apologize not so much that i feel regret for doing it but apologizing and feeling bad for the fact that I didn't think that it would make them feel so unsafe in a way. Yeah. Like that, that's only actually come out, I think, in the last two years. And I think that's because we as siblings have been able to be more comfortable with each other.

I don't know how you and your siblings are, if any of you listening, my sister and I are so close, yet we're so different and so distant at the same time. And I think that's just so common for siblings. You have all the same experiences, but you're completely different people. You receive them differently. And I think opposites can often happen because you look at each other and you're like, I don't want to be like that. Like she would look at me and all my what she perceived as mental health problems.

I'm not like that. I feel lucky that I could at least own it because then I could like feel more free at the end of the day. It takes others a longer time. And that's, that's okay too. Yeah. You took the words right out of my mouth about your parents. But I wonder if they feel very liberated by this.

After a life of feeling like everything had to be hidden, you know, that value is part of a lot of cultures, I think, that there's this sense of like what happens in the family, stays in the family. We make things look a certain way for outsiders. And when one person decides like, oh, we're not doing that anymore, it's scary. But then ultimately in the end,

I think everyone's able to kind of exhale and be like, wow, thank God, she did that, because now we don't have to pretend so much anymore. And it just showed me any time that I've opened my mouth, basically, a friend or a stranger would be like, oh my God, same. And I can't, I have, I have yet to meet someone who has not echoed a similar experience in some kind of form. Isn't that funny, though, because I think for so long, so many people, myself included, you have this feeling of like, there's no way this is happening to anybody else, you know, or like, I can't talk about it. Whitney, you have no idea.

When I was 10 years old, I remember doing this every single night. I, when I was struggling really badly with my anorexia, right? Every night I would kneel at the edge of my bed and I would pray that my legs would get skinnier. And I remember saying in my head, I bet no other girl. and the entire world is doing this except maybe some random girl in India. I don't even know as a 10-year-old, you have like, what does that even mean? But I said that probably for a year straight every single night. And I believed it.

And so I never, ever told anyone about the things I thought, the way I felt. And I would never tell anyone about my parents. And that's, I think what also causes a lot of tension between siblings is you're the only person I could bent to and that we end up fighting about it. And then we try to help them. and we're like blaming each other because we're the only people who can be honest. So you can only take your rage out on the person that's also being real. It's so true.

I had an episode come out on January 23rd with Dr. Jeffrey Greif. And we talked about sibling relationships. And what you're saying is totally on point that you're sharing these experiences with this person, but they're internalizing them and integrating them and creating a narrative in a totally different way. And there's also this idea that, like, you are telling your story. And that might not be your siblings story. And she may not want to tell her story. And so it can kind of be this complicated thing where it's like, how can I understand that that's how my sibling is dealing with their experience. And this is how I'm dealing with mine. And it's a lot of tough conversations,

which it sounds like you are having with her. I know. And it's, Gary to kind of also have to say, sorry, but I have to also live my life and share my life. And that's as a lifelong people pleaser and not because I'm a nice person because I'm terrified of being hated because of low self-esteem. That is me to a T. And so I've had to practice being like, thank you. I apologize. And I'm still going to do this. And I just, I can't say. And that's it. And that's really tough to do when family is a huge pressure. I mean, growing up, we're often told that, like, that's all you have.

Yep. Not true. Yeah. It's so, it's so true. So I want to go back a little bit to the process that you had, you know, with your dad and with your family going through all of this because I would imagine that a lot of people listening to this episode are kind of thinking about maybe bringing stuff up to a parent. or to their family member, and I'd love to know, like, what are some mistakes you think you made

along the way? What are some things you would have done differently throughout that process of bringing up family dysfunction? I have a really vivid memory of me screaming at the top of my lungs, scream, crying, slamming doors, just shouting such anger and disdain at my dad. And I think that was, like, 16 years of rage. And I don't, it probably for him came out of freaking nowhere, even though he would have rage fits and, you know, as, you know, parents just have their own emotions and stuff. But this one, I just remember it's so vividly and I could not control it. And I just wanted him to suffer. I wanted him to feel pain. And I think I felt empowered from therapy because in that safe therapy room, I was allowed to and encouraged to embody.

body every piece of anger and sadness. And I couldn't figure out a way to process it before unleashing because I think I also felt like I'd forget and I was afraid of forgetting and just giving him another pass. It feels like a mistake, but I think that that was just a really pivotal moment because I don't know if I would ever have had the guts to do that again. It had never happened again. and he really saw all years of pain. I mean, thank goodness he had grown a bit in his own ripe old age, in his maturity levels.

But one thing that I wish that hadn't needed to happen was how I really ended up telling my parents about how I feel like my mother struggles with codependency, which is why I was codependent and in a narcissistically abusive relationship for six years. By being in that and being treated like the ultimate scum of the earth, like a bottom feeder, and then going to therapy and having a therapist tell me these things to my face and then having to unpack my childhood again, even though I felt like I'd done that for five years regarding the eating disorder and the depression and all that stuff, I really wish I hadn't gotten to that point and I had been able to build healthy relationships within my family before I kind of died again in another relationship and had to repair myself from that person who was a partner and then became a danger that became like a stranger.

And I think that's very common for a lot of people, like something really bad has to happen to you to wake up and speak up. Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like through your therapy, you made the connection that you were repeating some patterns that you had witnessed. And I'd love to hear what that realization was like for you because I think that can be so challenging. It almost felt embarrassing because all of us had like my family, his family, we'd all known each other, been around each other. And it's just so funny how you can't see something right under your nose. Like I know my parents have a horrible relationship.

And for some reason, in my experience in this new relationship, I felt like this person was the complete opposite. And in some aspects, of course they were, because no one is going to be the same person as my dad. And the different qualities of abuse or manipulation just looked completely different. But the tactics and the effects they had on my mom with my dad were the same that they had on me. and I also had not seen as much extreme in my like both had their own extreme so I just couldn't see them together at all and I think because I lived so close to it I could tolerate a lot of the manipulation better because it wasn't new like if I saw that happen now I'd be like that's freaking weird red flag goodbye but I knew how to navigate all this really strange behavior so my partner I was like, I got it. I can figure it out. I can make it better. Do you feel like you had a fantasy about changing him or fixing him that was maybe related to your dad? Oh, yeah. When I was in a toxic

relationship, I was also addicted to being the fixer. And I think I always wanted to be fixed as well. I had my own mental health struggles. And it was just we both fed off of each other. And it was this constant need for one person to be sick, one person to be healing the next, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't think there was ever actually grounded connection, happiness. It was just up, down, left, right, sideways. It's a scary realization, I think, to know that you're repeating something that you didn't want to live through in the first place and that you didn't enjoy and that you know where it ends up, even if it looks a little bit different. Like, You've seen the movie before, you know, the ending. But for some reason, like you said, you feel

equipped to handle it. And sometimes it feels like, oh, this is my only option. This is like what exists out here. I think intellectually, you probably knew that wasn't true. But emotionally, it can feel like this is what relationships look like. With MX Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot trackside. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful banking of Amex. Pre-sale tickets for future events subject to availability and varied by race. Terms and conditions apply.

Learn more at amex.ca. slash Y-Amex. Bank more oncores when you switch to a Scotia Bank banking package. Learn more at scotiabank.com slash banking packages. Conditions apply. Scotia Bank. You're richer than you think. And not having one of my primary caretakers to be that grounding force in my life.

I just wanted another person to for sure be that person. I had my mom. I was good. I had this motherly, warm, loving figure, and the other person was not there. So I couldn't let go of a partner that was filling this gaping hole. And I had that gaping hole my whole life. So how could I just let it go? Yeah, absolutely. So I'd like to hear more about like after your dad apologized and you mentioned

like he watched videos and he was changing, what happened next in that process? I imagine it wasn't just like things were great the next day. So I think that I first kind of made that announcement to him and a family probably about five years ago. And, And no one was really believing it, though. All parties of the family except for me, because I knew. They were like, no, I don't think so. Because that is a scary thing. I had never heard that word either.

Sure, it's common now with social media and stuff, but I had never really known anything except for my dad's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. So you made the announcement of like, I think dad is a narcissist, and I think that he needs help with this. Yeah. And that is ground. shaking for people who are not seeking that information.

So basically over that five-year period, there were periods where we didn't talk at all. I didn't talk to my mom or my dad or my sibling because everyone was kind of having a fight with the other one in terms of things were coming out or were avoiding each other. But mainly I decided a lot of the time through the help of therapy that I just couldn't engage if no one was telling the truth. I remember saying that a lot to myself. I can't be the only person in the room telling my truth because it literally, at that time, I was way more vulnerable. Now, if I was in a room where people didn't really believe me, I'm stronger now. I could be like, that's okay. I know my truth. But at that time, I was super fragile. And I just couldn't play the part.

We had this very strict family system. I was this way. They were that way. And I just didn't want to play my role anymore, and no one liked that. So I'm sure they didn't really want to be around me either, honestly. Right, probably, because it would make them uncomfortable. Yeah, I don't think they were a fan. Yeah. It makes sense. I would be too. If I were them, I'd be like, get away from me. Yeah. But sometimes that space is, I think that space is really challenging to let people have that. Like for you to give this information and then say, I can't be around you guys anymore when things are not changing or when I'm being forced to like lie or contort myself in this way. But I'll kind of be over here and you come and get me if and when you're ready

to do things differently. And that doesn't mean that it's a lifetime of estrangement or no contact or whatever it is. It's more just like, let's figure this out. And I don't know that we talk enough about that space. That space can feel like it's going to last forever. And sometimes it's just what your family needs to reshuffle and integrate new information and then come back together later. I don't know if that was your experience. I was worried about what the timelines would be but I also felt really hurt if my parents abided by them because we didn't really have good boundaries in the family. Interesting. Yeah. So when I iced my dad out, because I'd also been in toxic relationships and observed them for so long, I was like, are you not going to fight for me?

Do you even care about me? And that was like I wanted the chaos, not the chaos per se, but I had to learn how to stop testing. Like I had to do these spaces and breaks and pauses for my myself. And I realized that my biggest weakness was that I wasn't sure what I really wanted. And I would just kind of throw things out there and see how other people would respond versus being very solid in my decisions. That's such a good point and such a good lesson that I think sometimes people do that, say something. Like, I'm not going to speak to you anymore. We need space as a way to get them. Like, I want you to show me love. I want you to show me. that you want me to be here.

And that's not a good pattern to be stuck in, but I understand why people do that. I think it's very sad when we have to do that with our own parents or family. But it's certainly a learned dynamic. It's tough. And it's confusing because, you know, whoever's listening to this,

you might think, okay, well, maybe her family was always fighting. That's the hard thing for that I, had to understand was that most of the time my family and I would be giggling. We like a lot of the same things. We have a good sense of humor. We always say I love you. We're very physically affectionate hugs, kisses. I love you texts. I love you phone calls. That's why it was even harder to understand why I needed space and breaks because it's not this crazy vandal every single day, but inside it would eat away at me, little moments of passive aggressiveness and this little tension over here and

this person's throwing a jab here or no one actually wants to have the real conversation. It was that stuff that felt toxic to me. All the stuff people didn't want to say, not that everyone was screaming. If people would actually have screamed, I think that would have been probably better. I'm so glad you brought that up because I think sometimes when parents are thinking about the past. They're having these relationships with their kids. You're like, well, that only happened five times, you know, throughout your whole life, or it wasn't always like that. And it's hard for us to understand, like, the impact that certain things had on certain people during that

specific age, developmental stage moment in their life. And I do think it's easier to call out blatant, regular, consistent abuse, right? Like, if you say my dad sexually abused me, people are going to be like, oh, I get it. I would absolutely cut them off to. Most sane people would say that. I've heard some people not say that. So I should give that caveat. But I think when you're talking about your situation, we're like, there were good times. And I think what you're saying is actually true for a lot of families is that there can be good moments and have moments and there can still be a lot of tension and people can still get hurt. And bringing that up isn't an insult or an attack on the family or turning your back or rejecting them. I think

it's actually an act of love of like, I want to be closer with you. I want to maintain these relationships for a long time. And I hope that any, especially any parents or people have been on the receiving end of that listening to this can see that. Because that to me is what I really feel in what you did. I don't know if it feels that way for you. The only reasons I really did this, I had to build new building blocks and strong foundations for us to actually want to meet each other as who we are right now. I think every person in my family was labeling each other as whatever made them comfortable. So this person was crazy. This one was annoying.

This one was quiet. This one was a potter. Everyone had their own place. And I wanted to provide a clean slate for everyone because I had changed. And I think it's been a big role of mine to kind of almost remind everyone that we have all changed. Sometimes I have to remind my parents that my siblings different. Sometimes I'll have to remind my sibling that my parents have changed because I remember growing up, everything was a certain way in my head to keep me. me safe until I could find a way to feel protected on my own. So if I'm not able to label anyone

and I have to actually listen to them and receive what they're saying, that's way more vulnerable than me just writing them off. Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. I think you're speaking to something really important that like we have to allow people to change and to be in flux and to get to know them as this new version of them. If we are truly going to try, try to tackle some of this dysfunction, right? That your, you know, your sibling has to get to know you as an adult. Your parents have to get to know you as an adult. And we also have to believe that they have the capacity to become someone different. And if you don't, you know, if you're listening to this and thinking, my parent can't change and I don't want to be there

when they do, that's fine. But I think if you go on the journey that you did and that you're talking about, it requires a lot of vulnerability to be like, okay, I'm going to tell you this and I'm going to give you the space to change and I'm going to like watch you and I'm going to let it happen. And that's really scary. Well, I really appreciate everything that you've shared here today. I think this episode is going to be so helpful to people who are beginning this process, you know, or thinking about it. And I'd love to know just if there's anything that you wish you could say to the version of yourself that was maybe just starting this process or to anyone who is thinking about trying to heal their relationship with their parent.

This is something that I would tell my boyfriend a lot because I've had more experience with kind of looking at my family from an outside point of view and also having worked on a lot of things. I would sometimes, you know, instigate little conversations just trying to know more about the family dynamic he has with them. And if I ever started to kind of pick at something, he felt instantly protective, rightfully so of his family and would say to me, you know, it's not bad, though. Like, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to say that it's bad. Like, it's okay, though. I said, no, no, I know. But it can also be like, eh, don't really love that. And it kind of makes me feel this way still love them. And that took a long time for him to be comfortable with acknowledging

all sides of people that he loves and also the parts of him that reacted to parts of them that he didn't like. I think he felt like he wasn't allowed to have different feelings except for positive ones when it came to his parents. And I think that's really helped him love them more. I don't think he's ever been closer to them just because he sees them as like a full packaged person and he can have compassion for the parts that he doesn't like actually. And sometimes he just writes some of them off and goes, but I so love you. That's really helpful advice. Thank you so much. I think so many people are going to benefit from your story. And I'm very grateful for people like you who are willing to share and talk about this stuff. I think that's how we continue to make progress.

So thank you again for being here. Whitney, you're the best. Thank you. The calling home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship between you and Calling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Holmes Terms of Service linked in the show notes below.