CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Do You Have An Uncle Marvin? With Marc Brackett

Episode Date: January 28, 2025

In this conversation, Whitney Goodman and Marc explore the significance of emotions in personal development and relationships. They discuss the lack of emotional education in families and schools, the impact of cultural perspectives on emotional expression, and the importance of having supportive figures in one's life. They also delve into practical strategies for emotional regulation and the connection between emotional well-being and success. In this conversation, Marc and Whitney explore the profound impact of emotional intelligence on creativity, relationships, and personal growth. Marc's Book, Permission To Feel: https://www.amazon.com/Permission-Feel-Unlocking-Emotions-Ourselves/dp/1250212847 Join The Family Cyclebreakers Club: www.callinghome.co/join Have a question for Whitney? Call in and leave a voicemail for the show at 866-225-5466. Follow Whitney on Instagram: www.instagram.com/sitwithwhit Subscribe to Whitney's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@whitneygoodmanlmft Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you're with Amex Platinum, you get access to exclusive dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best tapas in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca. www.ca slash YMX. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Calling Home Podcast.

I am your host, Whitney Goodman. I'm so excited to launch this interview episode. I was able to interview someone that I had read their book, their research, really relied on a lot of their knowledge for my book, Toxic Positivity. And so to be able to come back a couple of years later and actually meet them and interview them for the podcast is really such a cool, full circle moment for me and was really exciting. So my guest today is Mark Brackett. You may know him as the author of the acclaimed book Permission to Feel, which explores the importance of emotional intelligence in improving

well-being, relationships, and decision-making. Brackett is also the founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and a professor at the Yale Child Study Center. He created the ruler approach, which is a research-based system that teaches emotional awareness and regulation in schools, workplaces, and communities. And through his work, he aims to help people unlock the power of emotions to achieve greater health, resilience, and emotional connection in their lives. And in this episode, we discuss what it's like to not learn about emotions from your family, how to handle different levels of emotional awareness between adult family members

and what you can do to make sure that you are breaking this cycle in your own family. So without further ado, let's go ahead and dive into the interview with Mark Brackett. When I was researching for my first book, Toxic Positivity, I utilized your book permission to feel quite a bit. And I love your work. And I wanted to know more about why emotions are important to you and why you decided to focus on this area. Well, we can go into the like deeply personal or we can go into the kind of academic mark. Where would you like to start? Let's start with the personal as much as you feel comfortable sharing.

Well, you know, as you know from reading permission to feel, you know, my, the opening, I don't go into a lot of detail about my childhood, but enough for people to understand my motivation. And in a nutshell, you know, I thought about this over the last year. I feel like because of the abuse that I endured and the bullying that I experienced and just parents who loved me but really had no clue about how to manage their own emotions, nevertheless mine,

that my first 11 years were kind of like just suppression of emotion or acting out. Like it was one or the other. There was no processing of emotion. There was no real talking about feeling. There was a lot of feeling but they were, you know, my mother had terrible anxiety,

and she would say things like, you know, I can't handle this, okay, I guess I'm not going to talk to you about my feelings, and my father, you know, was that stereotypical, you know, toxicly masculine dad who was, you know, a tough guy, a gang member growing up in New York City and, you know, his philosophy was, son, you're going to toughen up.

And so neither one of those approaches were helpful, you know, having been a victim of a, having been a victim of bullying, having brothers who had mental health challenges and physical health challenges. And so that's a lot of information for you just in the first few minutes. No, that's extremely helpful. And I think a lot of our listeners to this show can relate to that just because so many of the adults that listen to this show are trying to figure out how do I reconcile, you know, all the things that I was taught about emotions in my family. How do I learn how to be emotionally healthy in the present when I didn't get that

education at home? And I imagine you encounter that a lot because a lot of adults, especially 30 and up, I think right now, didn't receive a lot of emotional education. And truthfully, you know, although many and even most schools say they're doing this work, it's really kind of hodgepaggy in most instances, you know, it's not a real kind of like math education or English language arts education. You know, what you're bringing up for me, first, I've done this research in terms of, you know, what most people say they learned about emotions and emotion skills growing up. And it's like less than 10% of people say they had a comprehensive emotion education. And it's like 5% say they got something that was adequate in school. So for the most part,

you know, I think part of the, going back to your opening question, you know, why do you care so much about emotions? Well, I care about them because how we feel matters for everything. Now, I didn't know that growing up. I just knew how I felt and how it interfered with my academic performance, how it interfere with my relationships and my decision making and my health. And then now, you know, at 55, having done 20 years, 25 years of intense research in psychology, I'm like, oh, if only everyone knew. Exactly, exactly. I can so relate to that feeling of being like, oh, this is the key to unlock, you know,

some of the hurdles that I've been facing in my own life. But I think you're bringing up an important point about like just culturally for so emotions were seen as frivolous, something to be avoided or suppressed. And I'd love to hear a little bit more about why you think that happens in families. All right. So now you're going to other research I've done, which is exciting. One of the things that I did, you know, the title permission to feel for me was an important title because it really opened up this idea of like, do I, as a child in my home, in my school, do I as an adult in my relationship

feel like I have permission to be my true, full, feeling self? And so post writing my book, I started this whole research agenda where I've now studied tens of thousands of people across the world, and I've asked them a simple question. Did you have, as I call it,

an Uncle Marvin growing up in your childhood? Now, that Uncle Marvin could be your mom, your dad. It could be your aunt, your uncle, your tennis coach, your third grade teacher. Honestly, it could be a neighbor. It could be anyone. But as a person, you know, that created the conditions for you to feel safe and comfortable to talk about feelings and provided that emotional support. And so across the world, only about a third of people say yes to that question.

Wow. Wow, wow. Now, yeah, keep going. Oh, well, here's going to be the hard part because of the question you asked. So a third say yes. We got that. That means 67% of the world says no. Now, I also ask in the research, who was this person?

And only 50% of that third say it was a family member, like a parent. All right, now let's go deeper. So that means about, let's say, so let's just use some math here. I got 30, let's say 33%. So half of that is what, 16.5%, you know, basically say it was their parent. Now, of that, only 1% say it was their dad. Wow.

Yeah. So we have a lot of people who grew up without really thinking of their father. as the person who gave them permission appeal. And only 15 or 20% of us say it was our mom, which means that 85% of kids are growing up in families where they don't actually see their own parent as the person who creates the conditions for them to be their true self. So let me stop there and maybe you can dig deeper into that if you like.

Yeah, you know, I shouldn't be surprised by those numbers because anecdotally I think this is what I'm hearing. all day, every day, you know, in the groups I'm running and the people that I'm working with as a therapist, but hearing it laid out like that in those numbers feels so much more shocking. And, you know, to anybody that's listening right now, I think it's important for them to ask themselves that question, you know, about Uncle Marvin, like you said, who is that person in my life? And is it someone in my family? Because it sounds like so rarely it is, and that this is actually quite gendered as well, that fathers are struggling to show up in this way more than

mothers. And also, so the next, I'm going to ask a question for you, because I want to share some of the research. You might wonder, okay, so what are the characteristics of these people? And that's another big part of my research, where I have people describe their Uncle Marvin or their mom. Do you want to take a guess what the top three are? Oh, gosh, I'm going to say that they are probably good listeners, compassionate, understanding. They allowed me to be myself. You're there. You're 70% there.

There's one more characteristic that you just haven't gotten, but I know you know what it is. They're empathetic. That's kind of like to the compassion piece. All right. Give me a hint. They are non-judgmental. Yes. There we go.

Okay. And so, no matter, by the way, this is across the world. I've done this study now in Hong Kong. I've done it in Spain, in Italy, in Australia, in Costa Rica. And across the world, no matter where I go, when I ask people to describe the people who gave them permission to feel, non-judgmental, good listeners, and empathic and compassionate. So, given that families are a big audience for you, I'm guessing, moms, dads, I did this study with about 500 families in Chicago recently.

Okay. And so typically when I do a presentation, I ask, you know, the convener to let me throw out my surveys to the people in advance. Why not? Then I can really tailor my presentation to that audience. So I do this research study. It's a parent-night, 500 families come to the big auditorium. and I show them the three, you know, that only a third of them said they had an Uncle Marvin.

And then I show them, you know, what are the characteristics, non-judgmental, good listener, empathic, and compassionate. And the funniest thing happened was so that after like in middle of the presentation, this one mother jumps out of her seat. And she's like, I've had an epiphany. And I said, okay.

And, you know, I realize I have two children and my daughter, she definitely has that Uncle Marvin. and my son, I'm certain, does not. And Mark, you have motivated me. I am leaving here today, and I'm going to find my son, his Uncle Marvin. Huh, interesting. And so I said, you know, maybe it could be you.

Right. That was my first thought is, why isn't it you? And so it's like this weird thing where it's like, I feel like today's parent almost wants to outsource. Right? It's like, there's your karate team. teacher, there's your math tutor, and there's your feelings mentor. Yeah, yeah. Like, we're going to find you the best Uncle Marvin we can find you out there.

Exactly. That's fascinating. You know, I work a lot with adults who are estranged from their parents. And a lot of them talk about emotional immaturity, lack of emotional regulation skills being a huge reason why they don't have a relationship with their parent. I surveyed around 2,200 adults are estranged from their parents, and I think it was 98.6% of them said emotional maturity was one of the reasons why they are estranged from them. And so I'd love to hear you speak more to what happens in a relationship when there is this level of friction.

Like, I have way more emotional intelligence or more of the skills to manage my emotion than my parent or my family member. Reading, playing, learning. Stellist lenses do more than just correct your child's vision. They slow down the progression of myopia. So your child can continue to discover all the world has to offer through their own eyes. Light the path to a brighter future with stellar lenses for myopia control. Learn more at SLR.com. And ask your family eye care professional for Esselor Stellis Lenses at your child's next visit.

Oh, hi, buddy. Who's the best you are? I wish I could spend all day with you instead. Uh, Dave, you're off mute. Hey, happens to the best of us. Enjoy some goldfish cheddar crackers. Goldfish have short memories. Be like goldfish. It's hard, you know, and this happened with me in my own family because I got a Ph.D. in psychology and studied emotional intelligence. And, you know, I had lost my mother, you know, right before I went to graduate school. But my father, you know, we struggled, you know, in this area because, you know, he had a lot of anger and really never learned, you know, how to deal with his anger. Even though he was kind of interested in psychology, It was more from an intellectual standpoint than a, like, I'm going to practice this, you know, in my relationships with my children. And so, you know, I think it's a gentle kind of walk you have to have and take. But I think most importantly, you know, is that when you live with someone, whether it's a partner, you know, a partner some, you know, if you have the right resources, you can kind of change that situation. You know, you can't change your parent, but you can change your relationship with your parent.

and you can create boundaries and use the skills because no matter what you know the way i think about emotion regulation is that there's three levels level one is like i change the whole situation you know there's no pandemic okay then i'll be fine right my parent you know gets a phd in kindness not going to happen and so there's the changing of the situation thing sometimes you can do that sometimes you can't you can prevent that you know you know if you know your aunt you know, is really mean and cruel. You just don't go there for Thanksgiving. Then there is the relational piece,

which is, you know, do I have people that I can talk to about this? You know, how do I, you know, get support and advice to problem solve, like the Uncle Marvin outside of my family in this situation? But then in the end, you know, so much of it is about what we do in our heads and the cognitive strategies that we use, you know, to regulate or the other strategies. And so, you know, I'll give you an example, you know, of one that I used with my own father,

which is I learned this technique, you know, in graduate school, and it's an advanced technique called psychological distancing. And so there's a cognitive way to do that, you know, which is, you know, more along the lines like Mark, you know, will this matter in a month from now? No, maybe not. Let it go.

However, when you're in a relationship, like let's say you're at, Thanksgiving dinner or at a family reunion or whatever it is. And your parent or your whoever relative is like kind of showing up in the way that's not so kind and helpful. What I've learned is I make it into a movie. And so I remove myself from the energy and I make it into a television screen. I'm like, gosh, this is a fascinating movie. And what that does is it takes away the impact on me as Mark and makes Mark the observer of the phenomenon. Yes, that's exactly what I was just thinking as you're talking as like you become

the observer rather than potentially the victim. Yes. In the story, which I think is what a lot of us become in those moments. Completely. And so that's one technique, you know, that I always recommend to people, you know, even I've had this happen. Like, I travel a lot for work to give talks and I go to a hotel and like, it's late. And they're like, you know, we lost your room. And I'm like, ready to freak out. And they like, you know, well, you should have called us. And then I'm like, All right, Mark, this is a movie. So that's, you know, I think important. But also, as you, I'm sure, teach in your work that I'll just kind of, you know, is the ability to just state with authority,

like, this is not working for me. You know, like I understand that you have these feelings. But I also am going to share that like the way you're talking to me right. now is not working and you know I I'm gonna leave you know or I'm gonna ask you to please you know stop and that takes a lot of courage it takes a lot of skill too right because we get rebutted we're in these relationships and we get lost in our feelings and so I think this is what's interesting and tell me if I'm going too far off track here but no you're fine is that when we think about managing

our feelings. We often think, like, what's your strategy? Take a deep breath or, you know, go for a run or, you know, drink some coffee or, you know, think positively. But truthfully, in the moment when we're triggered or activated, it's like a multitude of strategies, right? It's like, take my breath. And then I say sentencing to myself, Mark, get through this. And then I create the picture frame and then I observed what's happening. And then while I'm observing and I'm allowing that person to like do what they got to do, I'm coming up with my exit plan. DeFollow. So like it's actually like a lot of pieces coming together. And I think that when we teach people the skill of emotional regulation, we fail to help them see that it's kind of a process and that we're applying many

different strategies at once. That's so true because people also, you know, I hear this a lot as a therapist will say, like, well, that strategy didn't work. Yeah. You know, that emotion regulation strategy wasn't for me. It's not effective. And I think that speaks to what you're saying. I was like, well, I expected it to be this kind of magic wand that I could wave.

And it would take that feeling away. And I want to get more into like repression and all of that. But I want to go back to what you were just saying. because I think it's so important for this audience that a lot of what you're speaking about requires us to embody like the adult version of ourselves, right? And to not be a child around our families, which, as you know, we all regress, you know,

when we get around our parents or our siblings, et cetera. And one of the biggest feelings that I notice among my audience is this feeling of resentment of I went out and I got the emotional education and I learned how to be better and you are refusing to do so and saying things like, oh, it's just how I am. We didn't learn about this when I was, you know, your age. And I find that that is so hard for people to navigate. And I'm wondering if you have any insight or in your research have found why some people just don't want to improve in this area? It's slayered.

And the number one, I mean, there's not, the top three that come to mind for me right now are one is, you know, we forget that people's mindsets around these things matter. And so they've never really cultivate, to cultivate in a mindset that emotions matter. They don't know. You know, and I get a lot of, you know, going to like the real world for a minute, not the example, but I'm going to just make the connection. Because I do a lot of work in school systems around the world, there are some super who are like, you know, like, this is a waste of time.

You know, like we got to get AP courses in our school, not emotional intelligence. And I say, well, tell me what you know about the role of emotions in decision making. What do you know about the role of emotions in learning? What do you know about the, you know about the role of emotions in mental and physical health? And they know nothing. Yeah. And so when I say, well, let me share with you some of the research, you know, which makes this inextricable link between, you know,

know, how kids feel in your classrooms and their ability to process information, you know, regulate their feelings and achieve their academic goals. And then there's motivation. So I think that you have to find your way in, you know, are some people just too far gone? Probably, you know, it is what it is, right? So I think there's the motivation piece in terms of mindsets around emotions and the skills and why they matter in understanding that just from a, you know, clear perspective. The other piece of it is a different form of motivation, which is people with, you know, I'm fine.

This is the way I do. This is the way I do. My father would say, my father had this mindset. He would say, son, like, this is the way I deal with my anger. You're going to have to learn how to deal with it. Like, okay, dad, I guess. Learning is not in your vocabulary. You know, we call that a fixed mindset now in psychology.

So there's that piece of it. But I think the most important comes down to, you know, my colleague Robin and I, many years ago when we were building out our curricula, I came at it from like studying adolescent development and emotional development, and she came out from a clinical psychologist, like having patients and couples who are failing in their relationships. And we both be teaching strategies, you know, emotion management strategies. And then we come together and be like,

why the heck aren't they using them? Like you were saying earlier, like it didn't work. And so what I realized, you know, what we realized was one of the missing pieces was another form of motivation, which is that people don't understand the link between the regulation and their life goals. And those life goals could be life goals around building a relationship that really is quality, high quality. That life goal could be having what.

well-being, you know, that life goal could be your performance at work. And so what I have found in my research, especially among creative people, is that creativity might get you, you know, in the door because you have a great imagination, but the differentiator in terms of creating the product. And so we have to differentiate here, the process versus the product. So creative thinking is fabulous but if you don't do anything with it you know having a million ideas but if you can't produce anything you know it's not as important or no one's going to know when you can't prove your creative right and not that you have to prove it but you get my point and so what I found was and when I help people understand is that you know the journey to achieving whatever goals you

have in life is filled with emotion a lot of strong unpleasant emotion true disappointment frustration. I mean, I just can imagine, like, you've built an amazing following. You've got this great thing going on for you, which you should be really proud of. But my hunch is that it's not been an easy journey. No, certainly not. I fail 100 times every day. Yeah. And that people have criticized you for the work, so you don't even know what you're talking about, like blah, blah, blah. I mean, it's endless, right? Yes. And so if you allowed the world to dictate who you are and where you go, you would probably crawled up in a ball, you know,

in a beautiful Florida area, but getting a nice tan and like maybe, but, you know, you probably wouldn't be where you're at. And I think that people underestimate how much emotion regulation goes into achieving their full potential.

And I see, you know, as a professor, you know, an Ivy League University, just to call it out, where everybody has higher SAT scores than I ever had, you know, and, you know, better grade point averages and everything going for them academically. I was always, you know, under the impression when I first started 20-something years ago that everyone was going to be, I mean, how could they not be successful? They're brilliant. And, you know, guess what? A lot of the students don't achieve their full potential, not because they

didn't have perfect cognitive skills because they can't deal with life. No, it's so true. It's so true. I mean, I even think about that I think I would look back and if I talk to teachers that I had throughout my life, they might be shocked actually at what I have done because I really wasn't always like the best student, didn't always want to try very hard. But I know people that are a lot smarter than me that just can't get. get back up after they've been kicked down, right?

And so that makes it so challenging to push forward. And I think that's such an important part of your message is that if you learn how to do this, you will be stronger, you will be more competent, you'll be able to achieve your goals. When I feel like the rhetoric for so long, and I see this among a lot of older adults, is like having emotions is going to make me weak. It's going to make it easier for me to fail. you know. And I think what you're getting at is the misunderstanding that emotional intelligence, for

example, or using emotions wisely, is about being emotional. But remember, it's called emotional intelligence. And so that means you have to be smart and wise about how we use our emotions, which in my work, you know, and permission to feel, I talk about how we should all strive to be emotion scientists versus emotion judges. So if we're curious explorers of our emotions and label them accurately and know how and when to express them and have the strategies to regulate them, wow, emotions, I mean, they're the answer. And as I said earlier, you know, with the creativity piece, emotions are behind creativity. They fuel the creative process. But the skill of dealing with the

emotion is what helps you get the product. And that applies to everything, you know, that we do. In contrast to the emotion scientists, we have the emotion judge, which are people that I work with, people, you know, that you're helping, oftentimes the people they were lived with and are in relationships with, like, get over it, move on. You know, you're too emotional. Suck it up, Buttercup. Okay. You know, thank you. And so for me, it's important for people to understand that emotional intelligence is about learning how to use your emotions wisely to achieve life goals.

And importantly, for example, I get this, I do a lot of work because I work at a medical school with nurses and doctors. And there's a, they've been taught in their training, like, don't feel. You know, you're going to lose yourself, you know, and your feelings. You know, you're going to build a relationship

with a patient and then you're going to not be able to be objective or you're going to get depressed because maybe they have some terminal illness and they're going to pass. And when I do the training with them, I say, what about reframing this? Just try me on this. What if your framing was that

I have a patient who is a terminal illness and they're going to pass and maybe my job is to make the last few months of their life the most beautiful aspects of their life? and that what they're hoping for is not a stoic doctor who is emotionally disconnected. They're looking to have a relationship with someone who is going to guide them through the last three months of their life. How about that perspective?

And then people start crying and they start realizing, gosh, like, it is true. Like, all the patient wants is a relationship with their doctor. They want to feel trust and safety and comfort. and I'm showing up as this stoic person with no feelings on their face and trying to not bond because I'm worried that, you know, subconsciously or I've been told

that I'm going to lose myself in that empathy. Yeah. And my argument is that's not emotionally intelligent empathy. Emotionally intelligent empathy says, you know, I'm going to build a relationship with this person. I'm going to kind of be other-oriented. And when I'm sensing that I'm losing, myself, I'm going to find people to talk about it, and I'm going to have strategies, you know,

in my, in my pocket to also deal with it. Yeah, I was like that early on as a therapist. I noticed out of myself that, you know, you hear about people getting too, like, overwhelmed with what's going on with their clients and getting too involved, and I was really the opposite where I would keep such a distance, you know, to try to feel that way. And that was something that I had to learn over time that that impedes the treatment. You know, of course, I shouldn't be crying and, you know, getting overwhelmed. But there's this sweet spot that you're talking about where I can find other ways to manage my emotions around the situation that don't involve putting it on the patient.

Exactly. And I need to feel in order to be able to work with them and to give them what they need. Completely. And so that's the emotion scientist piece of the work. It's like you have to reflect at the end of your session, you know, as a parent at the end of your night, you know, as a person who is a leader in a workplace, you know, just reflect on, you know, is how I'm dealing with my feelings and how I'm dealing with other people's feelings, you know, helping me with my well-being, helping me build the relationships, and just kind of just, it's, this is why emotions need to be kind of central to the way we think about life because that's core, right, to. a healthy existence. I mean, we know, I'll tell you right now, I want to go back to the parent thing for a minute

because the reason why I was thinking was when I asked, when I showed the non-judgment, empathy, compassion, good listening, I ask parents, so how do we get this to 100%. Like, what if our goal was that by next month I do a survey with all of your kids and 100% of them say, my mom and my dad give me

permission to feel. What gets in the way? Well, number one, time. I don't have the time to be the Uncle Marvin. I'm like, explain to me how you don't have the time to be non-judgmental. You know, I always say like from a metabolic standpoint, like in terms of like preserving your physical and mental energy, it's more work to be judgmental. Totally, totally. I don't think, I think that's something people don't understand to is that this is an approach

that just happens in the moments of daily life, right? You're already doing the stuff. You just have to change how you're doing it to some degree. It doesn't involve sitting with your kid for three hours every night. And like, they don't want to do that with you. Exactly. Exactly. I don't want to sit with you. And by the way, that's the, you know, all this, you know, there's a lot of controversy as you might. know, and especially in your state, sorry to say it, you know, about the teaching of these things. Totally, totally. And, you know, the misunderstanding is like, people like Whitney and Mark just want people to sit around talking about their feelings all day long. Yeah.

And I'm like, who said that? I didn't write about that. It's not in any way. Right. It's like, that's the opposite. We want to help people be solution-focused and have self-governance. but at first it's a process you're not going to like just deny you have to it's a it's a game so time is the big one the second one which is a i know you're going to resonate with this

is fear yes which is something i wanted to talk more about so keep going with that that parents are afraid to be their own kids uncle Warren yeah and i just went through puberty when i said but it's like it's like crazy and then i say well tell me more You know, this is when I love getting curious. Yeah. And in the end, this is the sad part. And I just want people to listen to this because it's key is they're afraid because they're afraid because they don't think they're going to know what to say or do.

That's interesting. I thought you were also going to say something about like they're afraid of what it will bring up in them. And maybe that's part of it, right, of feeling helpless. But that's like a, it's like you're right. It's both. And certainly in the research we show that, like, I haven't dealt with my own anxiety, nevertheless my kids.

Yeah, yeah. They want to fix it. Yes. And going back to the research of the 30,000 people in my research who have reported on their Uncle Marvin's, now one person has ever reported the person was a fixer. No one. And, interesting enough, they didn't say the person was brilliant or smart or wise either.

What they said was right now. non-judgmental, good listener, empathic, and compassionate. And so I think that's such important information for teachers and for parents and for others, couples, you know, that the person, you know, for whom you're going to, you know, be the Uncle Marvin or give permission to feel is not looking to you to solve all of their problems. They're looking to you to be a source of non-judgment. Yes. of listening, you know, and of compassion and support.

Yeah, and, you know, that's something that I see among adult family relationships. People are still looking for those things. And I find that parents of adult children have a lot of trouble transitioning and understandably into more of that just like, what's the word, I'm looking for? Just like an observer role there as a consultant rather than a, person that makes decisions and advises and has control. And that loss of control, I think, manifests emotionally in a lot of really extreme ways that I wonder if we can spend some time kind of talking about how we might approach dealing with some of those emotions when they start to overtake you.

From whose perspective? Where were you? I think even the parents' perspective of I have an adult child that I don't know how to relate to. I feel like I'm losing control. And it's making me act in ways that I don't like. Earlier, you talked about, you know, emotions getting in the way of our goal. And I think a lot of parents are looking to have a relationship. They just can't get there. You know, I have a phrase that I say, you got to be the first, you know, and be the first. Like, take the risk. You know, I just feel like it breaks my heart. I, you know, I was watching this movie the other night. It was with Emma Thompson and Stanley Tucci and she played a judge and they were in a relationship and they hadn't had, you know, sexual relations in over a year and he was saying he was

going to just have an affair and it was like really complicated. And, you know, she was preoccupied with all the craziness and her job as this major judge. And then, you know, she was going through some difficult times and, you know, crying, but then she just walked out of the room into the bedroom because they had no ability to be intimate. And it just, you know, I was just like, this is so many people's lives, whether it's a couple or whether it's a parent and a child, because you can't tolerate the discomfort with all these feelings.

You just decide to either say, go blank yourself or disappear. And I just, I have to, when I say that, it just breaks my heart because it's like the demise of the human condition. because it's at the core, you know, of our existence. At the core of our existence is these relationships. And somehow or another, we have created messages or we have pulled out, you know, what it means to be human, you know, out of human development.

And my hope, you know, is that we can help cultivate these skills, you know, as early on as possible. In my work, we start in preschool, and it's amazing to me. I just give you one side example that really just is beautiful to me. I went to visit a school. So we have this model called Ruler, and it's a program that's in 5,000 schools across the United States and other countries. Many schools in Florida. I'm visiting a school in New York that's been doing the work for a decade, and the principal of the school happens to have been my former student.

And so, like, they really, he's like, got this. Like, he was like a student of mine and then became a principal and then brought the program to his school. It's been there for a decade. It's like fully embedded into the community. I mean, it's like something about emotions is like, you know, where emotions drive achievement. I think that's the logo for their school. So it's pretty, it's taken seriously. Yeah.

But anyway, I'm going to visit for the first time. I've never visited this guy's school. And so he had the student ruler ambassadors, like he calls him, like, he calls him, like, they're now trained ruler emotional intelligence coaches for other kids. This is an elementary school, by the way. Wow. Sixth graders, they were the committee of them who were going to interview me. And first, it was like, it was so cute.

And one of the questions was, you know, asking me about why I was so passionate about the work. So I shared, you know, what I said, I talked to him about, I said, yeah, I hated school. I wasn't a good student. I had bullying problems. So nobody ever talked to me about my feelings. and this girl who was in sixth grade, she looked at me with such compassion and she said, you know, I understand, you know,

but it's actually a little hard for me to understand because I've been a student at this school, you know, my entire time in school, and I can't think of a day that's gone by that someone didn't care about how I felt. Wow. And I was like trying and I'm like, you know, a program developer, scientist,

psychologist's dream come true, right? Totally. And I just think, you know, her neurobiology, her problem-solving skills, her empathy, her compassion for the world is so different because she's been thinking about this and applying it every day. And my hope is that, you know,

she won't become the Emma Thompson's in that role in that movie. But I just share that with you because to me that's the missing piece. is the, like somehow another people would rather the loneliness, the isolation, you know, the alcohol, the repression, suppression, and that's easier than saying, honey, I feel really sad in our relationship right now. Or, or honey, as a parent to a child, you know, I miss our relationship. Like there's something, and especially for men, you know, I've gotten criticism from guys, you know, which is interesting.

A lot of men say to me things like, you know, Mark, you know, you're way too vulnerable. You know, that's going to make people think you're weak. I'm like, where'd that cut? Like, who's, you know. And, you know, dads have said things to me like, you know, I actually was bullied like you were, but my kid would never know it. Because if my kid knew that I was bullied and I suffered because of it, they wouldn't respect me.

Wow. And I say, well, in those situations, what I tend to do is say something like, let's just take for imagination. Your kid, your son is in middle school, and he is being bullied right now. Do you think that your mindset about it? Do you think that the way you're talking about these kinds of things are not talking about them might influence whether or not your child talked to you about their experience? And so I try to find ways in, which I think is the answer. I think my point of all this is that be the first, take the risk. It's only talking about your feelings.

You know, it's not that big of a deal, you know, and manage the discomfort. It's okay to be uncomfortable. Yeah, that I think is at the core of this, is that it's okay to be uncomfortable. And I did an interview previously with Patrick Tien, who does a lot of childhood trauma work, and he said something like, you're not going to die. if you apologize to your child. And I think there is this feeling that some emotions will, like, kill you if you experience them, that they are that strong, that repressed, that just intense, that you have to stuff

them down. What's going to kill you, you know, metaphorically speaking here, you know, is not talking about the feelings. Yeah. Because it's very lonely to be. sitting with the regret, the anger, the fear, and not achieving the goal that you want. You know, for professionals, too,

you know, so many people just are so uncomfortable, you know, going after their dreams because of the discomfort that they're afraid of experiencing, the rejection. You know, I interviewed someone, an actress, her name is Emily Kinney, who was in this big show, called The Walking Dead.

And, you know, she's a young actress, you know, moderate, pretty successful, given the role she had as a big role. And I asked her about rejection. And she said, Mark, you know, if you only could imagine how many auditions I've gone and have not gotten the parts. And so she said, I just, I just have a whole new attitude. And I just, you know, I say just rejection is part of my job. I love that.

And this is part of my job is to just get rejected. I said all there is. And I know that for every time I got rejected, someone else got the job. And for every job that I got, someone else got rejected. True. And she goes, I just don't, you know, I sometimes I get really upset and I just like journal about it. And then I just crumbled up and I throw it in the dumpster and I look for the next interview. And those are regulation strategies.

Yeah. I think making it part of your everyday experience that you're going to be uncomfortable. these feelings are going to come up, they're going to rise and fall and pass and show up again is such an important reframe, because as you and I both know, so many people feel like I'm doing something wrong if I'm experiencing, whatever the emotions they have in their world that are, quote, unquote, negative or bad. Yeah. Well, that's another whole point of permission to feel, by the way, which is that there is no such thing as a good or about emotion.

Right. Emotions are experiences, and life is about the full range of emotion. So I think that, you know, the last thing that I want to ask you that I think could be so valuable to our audience is a lot of the people that listen to this podcast are the first person in their family to do something different, to take that risk and break a cycle. And so I'd love to hear what you think is like the most important thing that they do, whether that's with themselves or. with their children when it comes to emotional health. Okay. Well, you're reminding me of another situation. So I gave this speech recently, another one, and a good friend of mine came.

And he was devastated by my presentation. I'm like, why are you devastated? He's like, because I don't feel like I ever had permission to feel. And you talked about all these research studies would show that people who have permission to feel are happier, healthier, and have more purpose in life. and now I'm realizing that the reason why I'm not at where I want to be in my life is because I didn't have permission to feel. And I was like, oh, shit, you know, that's not the message I want people to leave with.

And I said, you know, something, it's never too late to give yourself permission to feel. And I mean that really seriously to parents who are listening to anybody who's listening, that the past is the past. We can't go backward, but we can give ourselves that permission to feel. And here's something really interesting. And what I mean by that, by the way, which is that we can be more self-compassionate. We can be less judgmental of ourselves.

We can be better listeners. And on top of that, what the research shows is that when we give other people the permission to feel, right, when we show up now as adults, as the givers of permission to feel, and we see how much it benefits people, it has a reciprocal effect on our own well-being and health. So true. So my final recommendation, and I say this with all my heart,

is that A, you can give yourself permission to feel, and B, start thinking about how you can give that permission to other people because there's nothing better than watching other people benefit from your goodness. and that's the path forward. Yeah, I love that. I think that, you know, pairs so well with a lot of the advice that we give at calling home that it's never too late to break a cycle in your family.

It's never too late to do something different. And you can really wake up any day and make a different choice. And I think so many people are doing that just by listening to this podcast, reading your book, taking in this type of information, especially if their parents or their family members never did that in the past, that that in and of itself, you know, is making a choice to be different and to break a cycle. Thank you so much for joining me today. I think this was so helpful and it was really an honor to be able to speak to you and learn from you.

Is there anything coming up for you that you'd like to share with our audience that you think might be helpful? Well, I mean, the past is my book, which is permission to feel, which, you know, I feel very proud. of. Another thing is this How We Feel App. I don't know if you've seen that yet, but it's... I have not. Cool. I'm going to check it out. So that's a collaboration between myself and my team and the co-founder of Pinterest.

Amazing. And we created an app that's for free. That's a basically a big piece of my book has built into it with the mood meter and checking on your feelings and strategies for dealing with the feelings. And then finally, I have a new book coming out but not until the fall, so we'll have to do another

podcast. Yes. Definitely. have you back for that. Which is all about like taking the regulation stuff that we spoke about today and, you know, pumping steroids into it. Okay. I love that. Great. I'm definitely going to check out that app, especially for my three and a half year old. I might be able to use that a little bit with him. You can use that, you know, for yourself with your trial, but also, you know, what we, a lot of therapists and counselors and psychologists are using it with their patients. Totally. Totally. As a way have tracking as it has a tracking device so you can and it's personal as we don't have access to your tracking but you can look at your patterns over time that's amazing love it congrats on all of that and i look

forward to your next book i loved the first one so we'll definitely meet again when that happens but thank you so much thank you all right we will end there this episode's going to come out on the 28th so in about two weeks okay great so i will definitely send it over to you when it's out of my both my personal and my center help. Perfect. Amazing. I really appreciate it. And thank you again. And then we'll take in your day. I was told that maybe the heating people are coming today. Okay. Perfect. I told, I think it's your assistant that emailed me. She can reach out to me with dates and times whenever and we'll get it on the schedule. I'm really, I didn't want to go in. I was going to do more about you in terms of the work, but I figured let me hold that off for the one I do with you. Totally. Yeah,

that'll be great. Thank you again. And good luck with your heating. We'll take soon. Great to meet you. Bye, you too. Thank you so much for listening to that interview with Mark. I hope that you enjoyed it. And please don't forget to get his book permission to feel. I will link that in the show notes. I wanted to let you know that we also have a new group that has launched and that is the group for estranged adult children. You can sign up for that twice a month on Mondays at 10 a.m. Eastern Time if you are a member of the Family Cycle Breakers Club. I'll link that in the show notes as well. I also want to

to give you a heads up that next month in February we're going to be focusing on a new topic and that is going to be romantic relationships, partnership, dating, and how your family dysfunction and your family history impacts those areas of your life. So if you're noticing that your marriage is repeating a lot of the same patterns of your family or that you seem to always be choosing a partner that is just like your dad or you just can't seem to find the person that you want to be with and you think that your family history or your family dysfunction might be impacting that, this is the month for you. As always, we'll be dedicating four weeks to this topic, new content every single Monday that includes an article worksheet, a video, and a script or a guide to a particular

situation. And we have a group every Wednesday to help you dive deeper into the content. All members of the Family Cycle Breakers Club can join us for the month of February. and dive a little bit deeper on this topic. I hope to see you there. Thanks, everyone. I'll see you Thursday for a Q&A episode. The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship between you and Collingholm or Whitney Goodman.

For more information on this, please see Collingholm's terms of service linked in the show notes below.