CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Enmeshment in Family Relationships with Nedra Tawwab

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

This week on Calling Home, Whitney speaks with therapist and author Nedra Tawwab on the concept of enmeshment in family relationships. They talk about what enmeshment is and what makes it different from a close family relationship. Nedra emphasizes the importance of setting healthy boundaries and respecting the autonomy of others, especially as children grow and become independent. She suggests that enmeshment can be addressed by gradually reducing contact to a comfortable level, asserting one's own needs and desires, and not expecting others to agree with or validate personal decisions.  Follow Nedra Tawwab on Instagram at @nedratawwab. For more information on Nedra’s books visit nedratawwab.com.  Have a question for Whitney? Call Home at 866-225-5466.  Click here to get “Toxic Positivity” on paperback.  Join Whitney’s Family Cycle Breakers Club for further support and discussion on family dynamics at CallingHome.co. Follow the Calling Home community on Instagram or TikTok.  Follow Whitney Goodman on Instagram or TikTok.  The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice or other medical advice or services, is not a substitute for advice from a qualified healthcare provider, and does not create any therapist-patient or other treatment relationship between you and Calling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home’s Terms of Service. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Nedra Tuab, a therapist and author who's here to talk with me about recognizing inmeshman and setting healthy boundaries within our families. I'm Whitney Goodman. Welcome to the Calling Home podcast. I'm glad you're here. And meshment is defined as a lack of boundaries in a relationship. It can manifest itself in any kind of dynamic, but one of the places it can become more common is between a parent and their child. It's completely understandable for parents to feel sad or cast aside as they watch their child grow up and become an autonomous person. But their boundaries also have to be respected and their growth has to be encouraged. You can be close with a parent, but it has to be a comfortable closeness.

And we're so lucky because Nedra has a lot of experience in this area and has some really great tips on how to set boundaries with those in our lives who may be crossing some lines. So I'm really looking forward to you hearing this episode. we share a lot of laughs, and Nudgeur has so much insight, as always. So let's go ahead and get into the episode. I know you talk a lot about boundaries, and I would say the opposite of boundaries is enmeshment, right? So I'd love to hear how you define enmeshment and what it looks like. to you. You know, with my clients, I do this hand thing where I put my hands together and I say

this is closeness and this is enmeshment, right? It's like, I can't even get away from you. If we're like interlocked, we are enmeshed. If we are close, we are like this, look, I can come, I can move and I can come back and you can move and you can come back. But if we are like locked, we have a problem. And that problem. is we don't have enough autonomy, separateness, and certainly there is no space for boundaries. How can people tell if they are, you know, close like hands together in a prayer or if they're like those interlocking fingers? What would you say are some of the differences? I have separate interests. I have separate desires. I have other. I have other. I have other.

friend groups and other relationships, my ideas are my own. I can bring them back to this situation. And, you know, they're shared or maybe they're just discussion points. I have some, I feel like I have some freedom and free real in the relationship. I feel like me being myself is not a threat to our interaction. I think often with enmeshment, there is praise in the sameness of everything. And there's lots of praise in the lack of growth. Right. Every year we go to Grandma's house for Thanksgiving.

Well, Grandma must be tired. Right? That's what I think. Like, oohie, she's been cooking 50 years. y'all don't want to rent a space and take grandma there nobody i t don't want to cook you know sometimes we don't even notice how we're so in the rhythm of something and i think in families you know speaking of that that cooking example i've seen in families where that person who is the matriarch when they die the family's over yeah it's like we don't even know how to gather without Martha

putting us together. We don't even know how to cook a turkey without this person being present because that is the, you know, that person is the glue. They're pulling everyone in. We should all be able to commune. We should all be able to come together and be in this thing together. We should be mixing it up in our families and in our relationships. Relationships, you know, I meant not relationships, But, you know, I think traditions are wonderful. And there's also space for them to be explored in new ways. Yeah. People get, like, scared of that, right?

Like, I feel like they get hesitant to shake anything up. Like, it feels like it's going to disrupt the family in some way. Well, you know, I think one thing that being a mother has taught me is sometimes things are your last time. And we have to honor them as such. Right? I remember, oh, my gosh, breastfeeding my child multiple times a day. And I remember that last time. That last time was like, oh, I think this is it. You don't turn your head. You are done. You are done. And it is, it's a scary thing to think that in our families, in our

relationships, people have other parts of themselves that they want to explore. Even our babies, even our parents. You know, they may, you know, it's interesting to hear adults talk about, well, my parents are not the kind of parents who want to watch my kids. They want to travel. You know, it's like the offensiveness. It's like, yeah, you know, this person has spent their life raising kids, paying for you to go to college. And guess what they want to do now, why they still got good knees, they want to walk in some different cities. They want to walk in some different cities. Oh, how terrible of them. And it, you know, it does fill a way to not be able to get the things that we have placed value on from other people. Yeah. It's hard to be in those transition

moments. I think this might be when like emmeshment becomes so much more prevalent, right? The last time that you're talking about of like, oh, no, I can feel this person pulling away or changing and that feels uncomfortable to me. So I'm going to like plumb onto them even harder. I'm going to make them stay. Yeah. You know, isn't that how those cases of parents, you know, manufacturing these illnesses sort of come up? Like you want to create an environment where you're in need. Like even though you're displaying that you want, you know, more separateness, oh, I got a way to keep you close. I know of a way to keep you close to me. And even if it makes you sick and unwell, I will force this closeness on you. And that's,

you know, that's an extreme example. But that does happen in, you know, the case of no matter who I am or how I show up in your life, oh, you will include me. And if you don't, I will make a huge fuss about it. I will be angry. I will pout, you know, but there should be some transitioning. I remember when it's not that I didn't invite my mother to my birthday parties when I became an adult, but I would say, you got to leave at a certain time now, lady. You know, you're not going be here at 11. You know, you come on the front end, you go ahead and help me get this macaroni and cheese in the oven. Then you go. You might see one other person. But what you won't do is really be partying, right?

Because this is a different space. It's no longer like a family experience. When I was a child, that's what it's about. It's like, oh, invite your cousins, invite, you know, it. It's like, now I'm in a different phase. And this is what it looks like. Now it's funny because I'm transitioning back toward, okay, mom, you can. Mom, please come over and help me.

Please, please be here all the time. Yeah. So, you know, I think we have these seasons. And, you know, people can can recognize that and honor it in a really loving way as a family member, that this person is, you know, maybe off to college. And so what? Guess what? My expectation of them calling me every single day might need to shift. Yeah. Yeah. I think this occurs like on such a spectrum. Right. And it's so interesting to hear like what feels like a meshment to some people and what feels like okay closeness to others. Like for me, talking to my mom a hundred times throughout the day feels very normal to me. And I know that if I didn't talk to her, it would be okay. It feels like it's rooted in choice, right? And like desire rather than obligation. I'm wondering if you if you feel like that kind of plays a role in what would be considered. emmeshment versus comfortable closeness. Well, I think comfortable closeness is mutual. It is desirable. It is something that we have some enjoyment of.

Some parents, you do want to talk to them multiple times a day. I think about that a lot when we don't want to answer our phones or respond to a text. It's not from everybody. It's from particular people, right? like we have some oh my gosh if this person called right away you know if this other person called ignore yeah i can't believe you're calling me right now yeah we get so offended i can't believe you will call me and there's somebody else call it's like hey girl yeah you know so it's like our desire for that relationship and that's not people's level of desire for us

might be higher than our desire for them. And that's really tough that people want a version or a part of us that we're willing to give to other people, but we're just not willing to give it to them. And it's not a matter of, you know, because sometimes we feel like if that's the case, I have to go and change this person so they could be like this other person. And that's not the healthiest solution either, because now you're talking about changing someone's personality, creating, you know, people aren't robots. It's not like you're going to go in and reprogram and put this, you know, mom 2.0 version

chipping them and then they'll do all this stuff. It's like, no, you know, you can mention a few things. They may try for a little bit. We'll kind of see. But, you know, they have the freedom to be who they are. And even in their relationship with you, you know, it might not be a good fit. You know, you want to talk to your mom because there is some connection there, right? There may be other families where there is not a lot of connection.

Some of it does have to do with your mom, but it's also who you are, who she is, what she represents, what the value at is. Some parents are not a value at. Right, right. And it's life stage dependent, too. Like, I think there's going to be times in your life where you're not as close with certain people in your life. because you're going through different stuff. Like, I had friends who aren't mothers. And when I was becoming a mom, I found myself just naturally not speaking to them as

much not because I don't love them or care about them, but because our lives were not aligned in that moment, in like the big stuff that was going on. Yeah, we want to have some sort of shared interests with people. And that's not always the case. And even if there is a role of parents, sibling, whatever, it doesn't, mean that there is this closeness sort of built in. It's really interesting and complex, but I would say yes, enmesh, certainly, you know, when you don't have a choice

and whether you want to speak with someone, it could be really challenging. I remember my first client who was dealing with some ammishment stuff. They came from a family that had a culture where, you know, you live in the home until you get married. And so it was my client and his three sisters and the mom. And they wanted to know everything he was doing. Like that was just, you know, the family way. Like, where are you going?

Who are you with? What time are you coming back? And he's like, I just want to be able to leave the house at 27. I just want to leave the house. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot track side. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lot. lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Pre-sale tickets for

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at BestWestern. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. I don't want it to be my mom calling me 20 times and being like, where are you? Like, what are you doing? Who are you with? Like, I get that we have this level of like enmeshment and closeness in our, you know,

relationship that's kind of built in with our culture. But what I'm saying is I need something a little different. And we would have these family sessions and the mom. I mean, she would be like, I don't understand. But eventually, you know, she was able to. get to the point of giving him some space and room for his boundaries and, you know, only calling when it's been, you know, after a certain time or it's been, you know, like a certain amount of time and not questioning and really relaying that to the other family members, that although this

is a part of our culture to live in this way, when it is not working for another person, it's not working. And it's really important that for us to be in a loving family and for there not to be a ton of resentment and now I'm avoiding being around you, we need to talk about this. We need to explore some different options. We need to establish some new traditions because I want to, you know, exist in a way. I'm not saying I don't want to be a part of this family, but I am saying I don't want to be tethered. I don't want to be tracked. Yeah, yeah.

I'm so glad you brought up that culture piece because I feel like it's such a big part of it, especially people who are straddling cultures, right? Like if you have immigrant parents who maybe are used to living in that multi-generational home and knowing where their children are at all times and you have this more Americanized adult child that is feeling like, well, I see my friends not doing this,

you know, with their parents, that that can create a lot of this. conflict of like, I want independence. You think that that independence is not part of our culture. And I see that bring up even more enmeshment, right? Or more of those behaviors that are triggered in emmeshment, especially, you know, from parents. Yeah. We take, you know, that individuality really personal as parents. We take it really personally. I just went to a school dance with third through fifth graders. And the third graders,

I could see they were more willing to incorporate their parents. Those fourth and fifth graders, we should have just dropped them off. I don't even know why they made us by a parent ticket. You did not exist in the room. Who was I?

Who was I? I'm talking to these other parents. Like, look at my kid. Oh, I like this song too. There was one song where I was like, girl, you must dance with me. She still wouldn't dance with me. I was dancing.

with another parent. Okay. She's like, who are you? Why are you here? Why are you here? And, you know, part of me wants to bribe

my younger child. Like, just stay a child and I'll, I don't know what I'll do. But, you know, it does feel like, oh my gosh, I'm losing this person. Like, they have these other people

in the world that they have so much fun with. And this used to be me. You know, so I, I feel that. And it's also my thing to manage. The solution is not, hey, you can't have friends.

The solution is not no more dances for you because you had too much fun with other people. Yeah. The solution is me finding my own business. Yeah. And dealing with my discomfort around my child growing up or my cousin getting more friends or my blah, blah, blah, doing this other thing. It's always interesting in relationships when I see other people added to the dynamic

and how the people who were, you know, maybe a parent or sibling, how they feel about those other people. We hear a lot about that. Like, my sister doesn't like my best friend. My dad is jealous of my husband. because they're seeing like, oh my gosh, like they are able to have a part of you maybe more often

or in a way that I haven't been able to tap into. But that doesn't mean that there's no space for you. You have a very valuable role too. You just have to figure out how to be in the relationship with the person. Every time their car breaks down, guess what? You might be their person. I don't know what you're juggie is. If you're lucky.

Yeah, if you're lucky, we have to make ourselves valuable in the lives of other people. And I don't think we realize that. And it's not like, okay, I got to do all these things, be the best, you know, the best person ever. So people always need me for something. I'm not saying that. But we have to contribute to relationships. We have to add value. We can't just sit.

And you know how it'll be like you have a, you know, a group chat and one person never responds. You know, you have to add in order for us to see you as a valuable resource in order for a person to be in relationships with you. And unfortunately, in families, there's this idea that there is some building, like, I always have a place because I have a role. And that's not necessarily true, cousin. Guess what? This neighbor could come swap you right out of this. They could just, oh, there go to Cousin spot. It's Darlene.

Don't get too comfortable. Don't get too comfortable. You better, you better show some, you know, you better show out or do something. So, you know, you make yourself desirable. Summer's here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well-groom lawn delivered, but you can get a chicken parmesan delivered.

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Light the path to a brighter future with stellist lenses for myopia control. Learn more at SLR.com. And ask your family eye care professional for SLR Stellas lenses at your child's next visit. I think you're speaking to such an important thing here that it's these moments of transatlors. where like our anxiety can go up, right? And that's when we go into some of these emmeshment behaviors of like, oh, I see you pulling away or bringing this other person into your life. And now I'm going to try to pull you back or like keep you here. And I'm wondering like if anybody that's listening that can relate to that and they're like, oh, I do that,

you know, what are some of the things that you think they should do to make themselves feel more comfortable in those transition periods. We have to be honest with ourselves and really recognize is this relationship rooted in the past or present. Because sometimes one of the beautiful things about families is all of the stories that we can share. You know, the time that grandma said, go outside and play and you snuck in a kitchen, I ate her cake.

You know, like those are fun things. Like, remember that time? we got it trump you so that's a really wonderful thing however it won't sustain our relationship because that's rooted in 1997 now here in 2024 what are we talking about what's going on in our relationship now that needs to be hailed that needs to be tended to what are we connecting on. So we really have to evaluate what is the relationship? If the relationship is simply we are related, that does not mean relationship. Relationship is some sort of connection, some sort of shared something there. Now, you can try to repair that. You know,

I think reaching out to people and pulling them in is really important. but also noticing their signs of pushing back. And sometimes we don't respect that when we want a relationship with a person because we feel like we deserve it even if they don't want it. And so recognizing some of their signs of maybe pushing back and operating in their space can, you know, it can be really helpful. You know, if a person says, hey, you know, I'm really busy with work during the day, why don't you text me? Do that. Don't keep calling them because sometimes we try to bring them on our

program. Well, I want to talk. Well, they said they ain't not available to talk. So I think that means that you're being a nuisance. You're not actually making them talk. You're actually making them want to avoid you because they've clearly stated what their needy is. What could be helpful for the relationship is if you honor that. If you show some desire to be in it with them where they are. Yeah, I feel like we can reframe it as like such a cool opportunity to get to know different versions of people, right? As they move through the life cycle, I always hear from so many people like on Instagram, like my mom still thinks of me like I'm 10 years old or I'm 5 years old and still wants to maintain that type of

relationship with me instead of getting to know who I am today. And it's scary, but it's exciting to think of the people in our life like that. Like, how can I get to know this teenager version of you, this adult version of you, and find a way to interact with you at this age? I feel like that's such a big part of it is allowing people to, like, be in flux throughout the life cycle and not stay the same. Showing some interest in their life. You know, I don't know. I don't know. if it's generational. Sometimes I think maybe it's generational the ways in which people are taught to show up in relationship with elders, like aunts and uncles and grandparents, like so much of the relationship in the past was about them and what they needed. And I think currently there's

been a shift of this mutuality in relationships. And people are kind of like, all right, I've heard about your doctor's appointments. You still ain't asked me about, just like, I've heard about three dead friends, grandma. Like, are you going to ask me about my day? So there is this idea like, yes, I care about you, but can you show you care about me? And I'm not talking about caring about me in the past and telling all these stories and calling me baby. I'm talking about really caring about me and asking about my promotion, caring about me and asking me about my partner, caring about me and, you know, asking, you know, what are you going to plant your garden this year?

You're showing that you're paying some attention to who I am currently, not who I was in the past because, again, in families, that's what people let it do. Remember you? Well, that was 27 years ago. So, yes, I did use to do that thing and like that thing. But today, can we talk about who she is today? And I get that, you know, there are just so many exceptions made. But in other relationships, these sort of rules do not apply.

If we have a friendship with someone, we are typically willing to be in the present with them. So perhaps some of the rules we're using for family relations, relationships are a bit outdated and they haven't work and they certainly are not working today. Yeah, it's hard to be close with someone that you feel like doesn't know you and isn't making an effort to get to know you. We would not tolerate that in any other situation. If you had a partner like that, a friend, you'd be like, okay, you don't even know who I am. So why am I going to hang out with you and interact with you? Listen, I remember years ago, I went to maybe lunch with a person I was trying to become new friends with.

And she talked so much about herself. That was our first and last lunch. First and last lunch. I said, this person was nice, but it was too much. You know, her words per minute were very high. It was like, I didn't get a word yet. It wasn't an interview. It was a lunch date.

I didn't say, hey, let me interview you. I said, let's go to lunch. There are different standards for interviewing a lunch. She heard you were a therapist and just went for it. Oh, my gosh. I should have told her I was a pilot. I'm a pilot. Yeah, but I think in our families, there is this idea that people have to tolerate you as you are.

You don't have to make any changes or modifications. and then these same family members, they go into these other relationships and they are a different version of themselves. So I know that you can do it because I see you doing it. I see how other people talk to you. So I need you to do it with me. And if you can't do it with me, the relationship that we have will be rooted in the reality of the relationship.

Yeah, it might be more certain. surface level. And I think that's why with some of this, like, emmeshment, it happens, right? Because we don't know each other very well, maybe at this stage of life. So we have to create a way to need each other and like to rely on each other. You know, you talked about like someone being sick or us all being the same and having this like shared thing that we can stay connected over that doesn't necessarily include actually knowing each other as people, which isn't very fulfilling, I think, for people on a lot of levels. Yeah. I mean, it's sometimes it's like starting from scratch with people to figure out like what's happening with them. And we often lose contact

with people because there is like this discomfort in becoming reacquainted. It's like, okay, what are you into now? How do you, you know, it's, and then, It doesn't help when it's other people around who know more and they're sort of flexing that. Like, yeah, the other day, you're like, oh, my gosh, like, I don't know this stuff. It is, you know, it can be awkward, but also it is a calling to show up more often. It's a calling to pay attention to people in a different way. I've heard people say, like, I don't feel like I know my child.

How do you try to know them? Do you think they're just going to call and tell you everything without you being inquisitive, without you wondering, without you seeming to care about stuff? You know, it's not on the child. Right. They might think you don't want to know. Yeah, you may not want to know. If you're not asking, you're not curious, the other person might assume like, oh, they don't, they're not interested. Or when you tell them stuff and you cut them off because there are some parents who do that, you start to, you know, how was your day?

Oh, my day was, did I tell you? It's like, oh, well, you don't get at, go ahead, tell me about your day. Yeah. So, you know, there's some of that happening. Or when you, when you do tell something significant, like, oh, my gosh, I got this promotion. And the response is dry or lackluster. You know, that's an indication to a person that I don't want to share anymore with them. They're not even excited for me.

They didn't even ask me, you know, the next. next week when I talk to them, how's the new job? Yeah, that can be another symptom of like enmeshment as well. So when you feel threatened by someone's success, like they're going to leave you, you know, because they got a promotion or something like that, they're not going to need you as much that I find some people in those situations have trouble being happy for the other person or celebrating them because of that. Yeah, I've noticed in some families, there is this idea that the person has become bougie as a way

to make them, oh, they're boozy now, they went to college, or they boozy, they have this car as a way to make them separate. It's not always the person who went to college saying, hey, I'm better than you guys. It's typically the threat that they have learned some new

things that is so offensive to everyone, right? It's like, oh my gosh, they know these, they know more than all of us. And, you know, there's this possibility of that. So let's start to isolate this person because they've created these new things for themselves and we're offended. So I want to kind of end this with some tips for people who might be realizing like, oh, I'm feeling kind of enmeshed with my family or this person in my life and I want to pull away. How would you recommend that they start setting boundaries

with this person? How slowly would you move with that? You know, gentle stepbacks. You know, if you're talking to someone every single day, a gentle step back is every other day. And then once you get into a rhythm of every other day, the gentle step back is every third day. Then the gentle step back is once a week. Then the, you know, just step it back to a place where you feel comfortable. And when they express perhaps a need for more, it's a way. for you to say, hey, this is working for me. I'm not available to talk on a phone every day.

And you may not need to say, I don't want to talk to you every day, which is sometimes the need that we feel to explain ourselves. If I tell this person about themselves, they'll understand why I don't want to talk to them. That typically doesn't work. It doesn't work because they don't see themselves in the way that you see them. So you telling them all these things about themselves, that may be true. It's still not very helpful for the situation and you have agency. Whether they recognize, you know, some of these things about themselves or not, you don't have to talk to them every day.

You don't have to go to every family event. You know, there are ways to sort of without ending the relationship, how can I bring it to a pace of comfort and peace for me. And that might look like, hey, dad, you know, I know you're having some health challenges. I'll call and check on you once a week. I don't want to talk to you every day. But once a week, I can make space to speak to you about your health challenges.

It's you figuring out what could work. And also confronting some of the language that's used and challenging people about why they may be saying certain things. Like, oh, you act so different now that you've got married. Have I? I haven't missed a Sunday dinner. So what different are you talking about? Did my recipes change?

Is my cake a little salty? Like, what difference exactly? Get to it. What is the difference? Yeah, because, you know, sometimes people, they feel different. So they want to make you seem different. I feel different because there is something different here, right? You are not different, but I feel different.

I feel uncomfortable and often uncomfortable people want to make you uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable. You need to do this. I love the advice that you're giving, though, because I think you talk about this in both of your books, that like the boundary and the changed behavior really needs to come from you, from the person. Instead of telling them, don't call me so much. I don't want to talk to you this amount. That might not work.

And so instead it's like, how are you going to pull back on how much contact you're going to have with this person? How are you going to maintain those boundaries if they never change? If they decide that they don't agree, you know, with the way that you're handling this, how can you assert yourself without necessarily having their buy-in? You know, I think sometimes we feel like people have to agree with the decision. decisions we want to make. They have to agree with me wanting less contact. They have to agree with me, you know, choosing this city, right? If I decide to move away from my family, they all

have to be happy about it. No, they don't. They don't have to be happy about it. They can be upset. They could cry and scream. They can mention it for five years after you left. They can do whatever they want to do. And guess what you need to do? Leave. Yeah. That's what you need to do. You need to leave. So there are ideas around what you're doing, although they may be, you know, some valuable ideas like, hmm, something to take into consideration. It shouldn't be a lifestopper. Right, right. You don't have to necessarily integrate that feedback every time you get it. Yes. It's not anything that you have to live out. Okay, well, aren't so-and-so said this? so this is what I need to do.

You have to have some consideration of your life just as they've had consideration with their lives. You know, I think another big thing of emmeshment that I see a lot is, you know, the challenge of family gossip where people feel like if I say enough bad things about his wife, he don't have to divorce her. Yeah, like I'll convince him. Yep. We have to get everybody on board because we have an idea. of what this person should look like coming into our family.

And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We have to be clear that that is also a symptom of enmeshment, that we have a standard that this outsider is not meeting. Yeah, and that we think we can change people within our families by like enforcing our will, you know, or our beliefs upon them. That can definitely be a symptom for sure. Well, Nedra, thank you so much. I appreciate you talking with me. We always have wonderful conversations every time. I know your drama-free workbook just came out. If you could please tell everyone at Calling Home where they can find you. And if there's anything else going on in your part of the world that they should know about. Yes, I am on all social media platforms as Nedra Tawab. As you just stated, I have a new workbook, the drama-free workbook. set boundaries find peace, set boundaries workbook, and the drama-free book, all of which are

wonderful resources for your journey and relationships. I think, you know, we think the tool should be easy, but they are not and we need lots of practice. So read more books. Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for being here and for your work. I think everyone is going to find this episode very helpful to thank you again. You're welcome. Welcome. Have a great day. The Calling Home Podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship

between you and Calling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home's terms of service linked in the show notes below.