CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Family Dynamics and Romantic Relationships with Todd Baratz

Episode Date: June 25, 2024

This week on Calling Home, Whitney speaks with therapist and author Todd Baratz on how childhood and family dynamics impact romantic relationships. He discusses why the environment we are raised in shapes who we are and how we communicate, which in turn influences the partners we choose. They also chat about "good enough" relationships and why relationships don't have to be perfect to be fulfilling.  For more information on Todd Baratz’s book “How To Love Someone Without Losing Your Mind” visit toddsbaratz.com. Follow Todd on Instagram @yourdiagnonsense.  Have a question for Whitney? Call Home at 866-225-5466.  Click here to get “Toxic Positivity” on paperback.  Join Whitney’s Family Cycle Breakers Club for further support and discussion on family dynamics at CallingHome.co. Follow the Calling Home community on Instagram or TikTok.  Follow Whitney Goodman on Instagram or TikTok.  The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice or other medical advice or services, is not a substitute for advice from a qualified healthcare provider, and does not create any therapist-patient or other treatment relationship between you and Calling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home’s Terms of Service. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Todd Barrett's, a therapist and author of the newly released book, How to Love Someone Without Losing Your Mind. He's here to talk with me about how our childhood and family dynamics impact our romantic relationships. I'm Whitney Goodman. Welcome to the Calling Home podcast. I'm glad you're here. It can be really hard for people to associate their family dynamics with their relationships. And it's especially uncomfortable for some of us to think that we've chosen a partner who may be. acts like our parent or like we've gone out of our way to date people nothing like our family. And it's natural to maybe even want to keep these two parts of our lives completely separate. That being said, what I think many people don't realize is that no matter what, there will always be some connection between our childhood and the partners we choose because the environment that we're raised in shapes who we are and how we communicate ourselves to other people, how we show up.

and what we're looking for. And I think this conversation with Todd will be really helpful to honestly everyone who gives it a listen, as he's not only sharing a lot of, like, insightful information and tips on learning how to recognize our patterns and relationships, but he also shares pieces on how his childhood has affected his romantic relationships. And I think the examples he provides are really relatable and helpful. I love in your book that you really emphasize, like, family history, cultural norms, expectations, all of these things that really get kind of programmed into us during childhood and almost end up dictating what we choose.

Can you walk me through some of those expectations or norms that we might be following that we don't even realize are impacting us? Growing up, we learn. Everything we do is learned. And we learn how to love. We learn how to have confrontation. And we learn that in our family. And so there is no way in which the shit won't show up in your relationships. And it's interesting because a lot of people don't necessarily believe, know, understand, fully or fully invest in that idea. But I don't know. For me, it's something I'm 100% all in on that the relationships we have growing up from, the minute we're born to the minute we meet our partner and enter into a long-term relationship and is shaped directly by what we grew up with. The biggest thing that I see is, well, a couple of

things. One, you know, tolerating uncertainty and tolerating difference. And usually that leads to withdrawal, that most of us growing up learned to withdraw, be quiet, we had no power, don't ask, don't engage, don't set boundaries, that what you get is what you get. And this is what I see most couples struggling with, engaging when having to verbalize their needs, engaging when they feel disappointed. And couples are either freaking out, having escalated conflict, or completely avoiding everything, and secretly resenting their partner until they hate them and are in a crisis mode. So, you know, these values and these expectations are, I think, mostly around communication relating to our needs, communication relating to a sense of feeling empowered in our being

an identity. Those are some of the largest things I think we learned from our parents or family of origin is who we are. And part of who we are is how we communicate who we are. And so depending on who you are and where you grew up and the time that you grew up, you may have learned that no one's interested or that you get punished if you communicate who you are or express who you are. So then later in our adult relationships, we are going to react in a similar way that we did when we were younger, which is, again, to withdraw, be quiet, or lash out and be angry. Yeah, you said something in your book about, like, the only thing you knew about relationships

was your parents' marriage, right? Which I think is true for so many of us. I remember thinking that and then starting to be around other families or other couples when I got to college and be like, oh, not everybody acts the way that, like, this marriage is working. And I think that realization can be like so jarring for some people. Tell us the story about like how you kind of realized how your parents' marriage was operating and how it was impacting you. From a very young age, my parents would have what me and my brother is called the divorce fight. And so it would be, I don't even want to say a couple times here. It would be like

once a month. My mom would have basically hit a tipping point, say I'm leaving you, put us in the car, like go on a joy ride, come back, and then, like, my father would buy her jewelry or something the next day, or my eldest brother would come over and, like, mediate something, and they'd be back together. So I knew from a very young age that, like, something was off. And so I didn't have to. And so, you know, as I was seeing my friends' families, I was like, this is very different. And it was less of a compare and contrast. It was just, I guess it was it was quieter. I mean, there were no fights. I didn't really see what I had. had seen at home. So I knew from a very young age. I also started therapy from a very young age

and my therapist would often talk about and ask about, you know, how do your parents get along? What's their relationship like? So for as long as I can remember, I knew that something was really off in my family. Yeah. I feel like there's two extremes to that, right? Like you're saying, I started noticing this from a young age and I started exploring it in therapy. And then there are the people who don't notice it or they're ignoring it, shutting it down, and they're not exploring it? Do you think that those people might have a harder time figuring out why they're struggling in their relationships if they haven't explored some of that stuff? The one thing in families, if you're not getting some outside feedback or information,

is that most families are, one of the rules is denial, denial that anything is wrong. I see many people where there was one parent who was, you know, wildly, anxious and everybody just catered to the anxiety, no matter how psychotic or unsafe their anxiety made the entire family feel that it was ignored, it was denied, and the family did whatever the parent needed to cater to the anxiety, even if it was never leave the house, they never left the house. No one challenged it. This is just, you know, what they did. And so without any kind of outside voice to say, you know, this actually isn't wrong, it's not safe, you know, your mother needs help, whatever. One, we don't, we may not even register that it's a problem because it

becomes so normalized that we don't have an adult in our life saying this isn't right. So it becomes normalized and we don't realize it. We do the whole denial thing because those are the family rules. And we again say this isn't a problem at all. And most people don't get feedback about their family life until much later on in life, especially people in our generation where, you know, maybe in the past five, ten years, we've just started talking about trauma and family life. And it's usually not until then that most go to therapy and start unpacking it.

But they do so at a time where they've had decades of already normalizing, suppressing, denying what actually happened. And so it's interesting and also kind of funny. I'll see a client or a couple and they'll say, no, I had a normal, my parents got along, everything was normal or it wasn't that bad. And then I'll really start asking, more questions about, well, did your parent have anxiety or whatever? Yeah, well, sometimes we just

couldn't leave the house because my mother wouldn't let us because she thought we were going to get by a car. I'm like, oh, okay, that sounds really scary for a nine-year-old. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, in order to have a sense of awareness of something, we have to have an awareness of it. And oftentimes it's not until later in life that someone's like, hey, did you think about this? That we can actually become aware of it. 100%. And it's, it's uncomfortable to start like examining some of that stuff, right of like, oh, maybe things were not as good as I thought or maybe they're impacting me today in X, Y, Z way. But I think something I've seen a lot with my own clients is like people picking people that are exactly like the parent that they have a problem with, but not really

being able to identify that. Is that a pattern that you see with clients as well? Yeah, of course. I mean, I think this is the number one thing we see with our clients, with our couples, with our individuals, is that we're all drawn to someone that reflects, represents a symbolic of some level of unfinished business with our family, a parent, something, our trauma. And then we will actively pick somebody that will specifically frustrate us and annoy us and deprive us in similar ways that our parents did. And the challenge becomes, initially, most people say, well, it's their fault. They're not doing this objectively. This is wrong. They should be doing this. They should just know blah, blah, blah. Many people are doing that in a really

dysregulated, escalated place. And they're not connecting that dysregulated emotional space to where it belongs, which is the earlier experiences, the earlier traumas that they had with their parents. I would go as far as every single person. This is applicable

to every single person. But people really resistant to that idea because when you're in it, when you're triggered, it feels like you are just definitionally right. And your partner is definitely, they did this thing to you, they're wrong, they should be texting you more, they should be hugging you more, end of sentence, period. People are really resistant to saying, okay, well, maybe this emotional material comes from somewhere else. And it always does. And people are resistant, I think, when you say like, oh, you know, this dynamic you're having with your partner reminds me a lot of, the dynamic you've described with your father. And if they don't like their father, they don't

identify with that, it's very much, oh my God, no. I would never partner with someone like my father, you know, even though they could be different in a lot of ways, but it's playing out in the same like relational dynamic or dance, right? With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot track side. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lot. lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Pre-sale tickets for future events subject to availability and vary by race. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at mx.ca.com. Yeah, I think that can be, like, so tricky to recognize. The other thing I find is, like, some people really overcorrect. Like, I'm going to find someone that is nothing like my parent or I don't want to end up like my parents. So I'm never going

to partner. I'm never going to get married because then I can't get divorced. Like, how can someone and work through some of that fear or making sure that they're not like over-correcting just to avoid a bad outcome? Well, I mean, if we're talking about over-correcting, meaning I'm never going to go on dates, I'm never getting married, no relationships for me ever, ever, ever. I think that's a different story.

If we're talking about somebody that's like, I'm never going to pursue a partner who's like my parent, I mean, good luck to you because you'll end up with somebody without even knowing it. It might not necessarily come up in the ways that when you think about it, if we have a parent who's not communicative, we may end up with a partner who's either not communicative or overly communicative that's going to make us have to confront the

discomfort and unfamiliar space of being with somebody who communicates a lot. So even when we overcorrect, we have to, we are faced with what we didn't receive. And that's just as uncomfortable with what we received. So there's no kind of immunity to this. We're all going to end up, like I said, with some level of something that comes from our past, whether it's something that we were never used to and it feels really unfamiliar and we feel oppressed by it, or something that's very similar and brings up the same exact feelings. If you're trying to overcorrect and you're freaked out about, you know, repeating patterns, one, except the fact you're going to repeat a pattern.

Like, you're going to wake up tomorrow. The weather, the sun's going to come out. Like, this is a pattern. It's how we live our lives. The best thing to do is not to be hypervigilant and anxious about who you're going to pick. the best thing to do is become more aware of the things that you are referring to you are looking to avoid. So whether that's somebody who doesn't express their emotions, why would that be so terrible, whether it's someone you want who is super emotional, unlike, you know, your parents,

why. You know, to first connect with yourself to figure out what your story is there, why it matters so much, if it even does, and how you work through that. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense because otherwise people develop these like checklists, right? Of like, I won't do this. I won't do that. I won't pick a partner that has this. And it ends up, like, just eliminating every person alive, basically, in order to, like, keep them safe. Like, is that a strategy that you think a lot of people take when they're feeling vulnerable or defensive or whatever it is? Yeah, I mean, the checklist is a problem. It's not effective. It doesn't do anything to protect us, except distance ourselves from connection. And it's just basically anxiety that we've reframed.

currently in trendy psych pop culture as health and boundaries and all of this other stuff. I'm not trying to do away with healthy boundaries like pick a partner that's safe and empathic and listens and, you know, shares themselves to an extent. But the checklist is a bit much. And again, like, as I'm sure you know, just as well as I do, the challenge and problem isn't picking a partner with similar characteristics or who sucks at communication. It's how you work through it with them.

I do believe that, you know, it's not a terrible thing to pick a partner who is a lot like your parents because it gives you an opportunity to, one, connect with the loss that you experienced what you didn't get when you were a kid, and two, to change how you approached that loss with your partner. And that can be incredibly reparative. I mean, it's not a cure of, you know, early attachment trauma, but it's a huge opportunity to really repair. So in times where you might of withdrawn, engage. And this is where partners can work together to grow and change or not and separate. But it is an opportunity and it's not a bad thing to reenact or to recreate or to be with someone who's just like your father. Because one, you're an adult. It's not a parent-child relationship.

Your teammates, you can confront, you can challenge, you can push, you can ask for more and you can leave if it doesn't work. So all of that stuff is a huge opportunity for your own personal growth, for relational growth. I see this as a positive. It's so true. remembering that piece of like, I'm an adult now, I think it's such a key, a key part of both of our work that like you don't have to feel like that child like part of yourself in all of these types of relationships. And when you do that, you totally lose your power. You feel stuck. But this conversation we're having about checklist is making me think about like dating apps. And I would love to hear your thoughts on like how those work now because I met

I met my husband, like, right when Tinder was coming out. So I never used any of this stuff. And now that I see my friends using it, I'm like, wow, you get so much information about someone on like the little profile, you know, that I'm wondering. I think a lot of people with their checklist are like, okay, doesn't meet my requirements for these 100 things swipe. Like, how do you think that's affecting the way that we date or partner? That's such a problem.

I mean, because it's like we're shopping. we're shopping for characteristics. And relationships are not about characteristics. They're about connection. They're about vulnerability. Of course, it's not to say, you know, pick someone who's terrible. But when we're approaching relationships based on characteristics, based on a checklist, it's a fundamental disconnection.

It's a fundamental way in which we objectify other people based on how we anticipate them being able to fulfill our needs. But that's not how relationships work. relationships are a team, a partnership, and based on connection and shared experiences together. And so the way we may anticipate somebody who holds certain characteristics, jobs, and clothing style, has literally nothing to do with what it would actually be like to sit across from the table and get to know each other. It has nothing to do with whether or not they'll hold you when you're sad, or the sex will feel good, or you could go away with them and have a wonderful time and build a life together.

So it just sucks because we're all being trained to look for things that actually don't lead us in the direction of intimacy. Yet those, it becomes indistinguishable. People feel entitled to look for certain characteristics. You know, you're entitled to a love that blah, blah, blah, blah. When that's really not what relationships are about, they're a dynamic, they're about experience. And so I just had a session with somebody having the same exact conversation. you know, that's really talking about characteristics and they responded this way and they said it like this and I didn't like their clothes and it was just an awkward thing and it was weird and

blah, which, you know, if you're going into an experience, whether it's virtual and you're swiping or you're actually on a date and you're going into that experience with this whole fucking list of all of these different things that you're expecting someone to be, you're fundamentally not present. You can't connect and everyone's disappointing so you're just going to feel disappointed. And then if you're feeling disappointed, there's absolutely no way you're going to give anybody a chance. You know, it's a whole setup. And in the book, I say what I said before is that this is just all a big, fancy new way of expressing anxiety. It's almost just like too much information too soon about someone to me.

Like you're not even able to connect before you get all of this data on them. And it's also like empty information. Uh-huh. It's not interactional information. It's not like, can this person say something sweet to me? Are they going to show up for me? It's not relational data. It's demographics.

Yeah, it is. And it's not helpful. I mean, obviously, again, like, sure, but it's supposed to be a starting point. It's not supposed to be a way to pre-plan and anticipate if this person is going to, you know, if you're going to have a child with them five years down the line. We've become, like, so obsessed with data, though, that I think people are. They're just like categorizing all these things like, okay, well, if he doesn't do this or he does that, then can't be right for me and you rule people out so quickly. It's, it's bizarre. I feel

fortunate to not have been involved because I think it would have made me crazy. That's crazy making. To like date that way. So another part of your book that I really enjoyed because I remember learning about this in undergrad was just like the shift in what marriage is for and what it entails and how much that has changed over time. And when I think about like how much people are struggling lately with relationships with their in-laws, I feel like it's connected to this because you talk about this in your book, like marriage used to be more about the family unit, not finding a person that could fulfill all your needs and be this, you know, star just for you. It was about like the entire family. And so I'm wondering if you say,

see this playing out as well within families, like, that we're so focused on finding the perfect partner for us and our families are kind of like, well, what about all of us? We also have to like and approve of the person's religion, X, Y, and Z, and like how that can complicate things. Pumpkin is here at Starbucks, and we're making it just the way you like. Handcrafted with real ingredients like our real pumpkin sauce and rich espresso out, sprinkled with pumpkin spice. It's full of real flavors you'll keep coming back for. Made just for you at Starbucks.

Yeah, well, I mean, marriage was about the family unit. And then before that, it was like literally about survival. Like, people got married not because of love, not because of a lack of red flags or a spark or sexual chemistry. I mean, there was like no sex. People got married because they wanted to survive. And they had kids so they could carry up the family name or farm or whatever. This was about agriculture and food, whereas now love, marriage, relationships are about like science fiction level need fulfillment and like perfection, although no one would ever say they're looking for perfection.

And that includes extended family, which is extremely cultural depending on how much each partner is participating with their immediate and extended family and how much in-laws will be part of the relationship. relational dynamic. But I see many people who struggle with the relationship they have with their in-laws and they've internalized some value that that's bad or that they should be looking for somebody who has an intact family or that is a good family or blah, blah, blah. And again, you know, this is historical, cultural and a ton of anxiety about what that means. But, you know, in-laws can be a tough thing. But the good news is that you're not marrying your in-laws. You're not in a relationship with your in-laws. And just like friends and people that might not be your favorite people, it's the same approach. It's about tolerating and being supportive of your partner.

Because I think often that's what gets lost a lot is I'll see a couple. And one partner will be complaining about their partners, family, parents, whatever. And that partner has an incredible amount of trauma with their family and parents. And I'm like, look, you don't have to like them. But if you're going to go visit, you cannot complain to your partner and make them be responsible for your feelings for not liking their family. Your job is to be supportive, is to be present, is to say, what do you need, babe? And then after once, you know, your partner is away, you know, you can't slowly ease into, I can't believe they, this was crazy when they did that. I really wanted to say something, but I knew I could see on your face, you were upset. You know,

that there's a lot of tolerance and compromise that has to happen. And even if your partner doesn't have trauma with their family and they love their family, you also want to be supportive of that. You know, and it doesn't, we don't have to violate your own boundaries. And you can also say, you go, I'll stay home. But I think people have a lot of rigid beliefs about how things should go or what they should be doing. And they're usually all wrong. Yeah.

And like you said, they're all. Well, based on, like, you know, cultural, ethnic, regional, like, types of beliefs that certain families have, like, this is the way we do things. You know, I'm, I'm in a marriage where my husband comes from a different religious background than me. I have a different cultural background. And so there are a lot of things where it's like, this is true for you and this is true for me, but we're not, they're not the same for each of our families. And neither one is wrong or right. And I think a lot of people struggle with that because it's just like, well, this is the way that it should be. You're also bringing up an interesting like power dynamic here about like partners wanting to be chosen over their in-laws, right?

And I see a lot of fights like breaking out because of that. I don't know if that's something you witness as well. Which is hard because it's, you know, it's a completely reasonable thing. And oftentimes it's actually happening is that. that, you know, one partner really struggles to differentiate from their family, and when they're together, or if they're making holiday plans or plans in general, they'll default to their family and disregard their partners' needs, opinions, and wants. And it's a real dynamic, and that's really hard. Or like I was saying, the other version of that is that, you know, we wanted the

attention to be on our challenges with our partner's family, as opposed to just supporting our partner. I mean, so there's so many things that can come up and go wrong. But, you know, it kind it becomes an art of how to deal with it and an ongoing experiment of what works and what doesn't work. But it's definitely a challenge, especially if you feel like your partner isn't making you a priority to decide, okay, where do I need to feel like a priority? And where can I let go of some of this? You know, where can I give to them during times when I'm looking to receive? What feels necessary and appropriate for me versus what might feel necessary and appropriate from them? And, you know, the answer isn't then to try and assume, you know, ask, ask your partner, you know, how do you,

when you go to your parents, like, are you overwhelmed? Are you good to be there? What can I do to support you? And then they can say something like, just be quiet. I don't know. And then you can say to them, okay, well, for support for me, I get, you know, an hour bitch fast when we leave. I don't know. But you're going to have to talk with your partner and to communicate about these things, experiment and explore what compromises work. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think that's good advice. Yeah, we make so many assumptions about like what might be going on with our partners when they're with their parents or assuming that they're having the same experience that we are

in that moment. And so the advice of like just ask seems so simple, but I think majority of people are not doing that. No, really about anything. Yeah, absolutely. They're more responsive than curious. There's another story in your book that really stood out to me where you talk about your relationship with Alex and your interactions, you know, with their parents, like the father showing you affection and welcoming you into the family. And I'm wondering if you can speak to like how it might feel for people to receive a different type of love or a love that they prefer from their in-laws that they didn't get from their parents and how that can impact the relationship dynamic between them and their partner. Yeah, I mean, when I went to the first

Christmas at Alex's place. You know, I was like, what the fuck is this? So are they getting along? Like what? Because holidays in my family were like this obligatory guilt fest where, you know, my brothers would hide in their rooms. We would all do the countdown until dinner was done. And then everybody would like go away. So when I got to his parents place and everybody, and I was also Jewish and he was Catholic, I don't know. And they went all out for Christmas. And it was like almost bizarre how many gifts there were. Like I was like, this is crazy giving in so many ways. whereas my family was, you know, the exact opposite of giving. But so it was connective for me and my partner.

At first it was triggering, and, you know, I talked to my therapist about it, just in terms of triggering, you know, loss. You know, I wish my family could be like this and they're not. But then it was helpful to talk about that with my partner. It gave us an opportunity to revisit what I'd already told him what he had observed in my family. And it made me feel closer. It made me feel more seen. It also was really nice to be able to.

to be taken into a family and taken care of in ways that I, that I wasn't. And that's often what happens for many people. Yeah. I think that's so helpful to anybody who's in that position because it's hard to feel like the person who has like the crazy family or the non-intact family or the, you know, family that is struggling in comparison to your partners. Like I think that can trigger a lot of feelings of inadequacy or inferiority. And so to be able to be like, oh, I'm lucky to be able to have this and that it's a connective thing and it's good that I'm being taken in by these people is a wonderful response to be able to get to. Totally. And when I started, when we, the relationship ended and then I started dating and, you know, where is your family

live? How many brothers do you have? Blah, blah, blah. And I had to be like, well, I don't speak to them and we don't really do anything for the holidays. I usually just join a friend or whatever. You know, I've worked through it and whatever, but shit still comes up for me when I'm like, you know, I basically don't have a family and then I would fear that they were judging me or I don't know. But, you know, I think it's hard, coupled, single, it's a hard place to feel disconnected from family, no matter what the situation is.

100%. I think some people avoid dating in my experience or having those types of interactions because they don't want to disclose where they're at with their family for fear of being judged, especially like you brought this up earlier about people saying, I want to be with someone that comes from a good family. You know, I grew up with that type of messaging. And it's like, what does that even mean? Because you have, you have no control over, you know, in a lot of ways where you're at with your family relationships and that doesn't at all define your ability to be a good partner when you've done the work and you've been able to kind of like figure out who you are and what you want that judging people on the status of their family relationships

can be really hurtful and not accurate. Yeah. I mean, it's a total thing. People still say it and fully believe it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 100%. I can see why people would feel like that level of insecurity, having those types of conversations. I wish that we could change that narrative. So hopefully this will have some impact on that. But the last thing I want to talk about with you that I wonder if it has been triggering to some people is this concept of good enough relationships. Can you explain what that means? Sure. Well, as I'm sure you know, this is not something I came up with. This is something that Winnicott came up with first talking about, and probably even before, I don't know, but talking about the good enough parents.

So not the parent that's perfect, that's there for everything that's killing it and blah, blah, blah, because that's not realistic, but a parent that can basically fulfill the needs developmentally and an attachment relationship of their kid. And then the Gottman's, I think, kind of repurposed it to apply to relationships, to adult partnerships and relationships, meaning that, you know, your needs don't have to be fulfilled all the time. Things don't have to be 100% all the time. you can hate your partner, you can feel disappointed with them.

The relationship can be frustrating and full of conflict, yet if most of the time it's good and it feels manageable, it's good enough. And that when it comes to tracing relationships over a longer period of time and understanding what satisfaction means, it doesn't mean perfection. It does have to do with accepting imperfections and finding relationships that can fulfill us enough because no relationship, job, dog, nothing can ever fulfill us in any way beyond enough, good enough. And it's interesting because we approach ourselves or we're now being told to approach ourselves like we're enough. When we fuck up, it's okay. If we, you know,

can't commit to whatever we said we're going to commit to, we forget ourselves. You know, many people really struggle with that still. But for the most part, you know, this whole good enough narrative is, you know, huge for self-love. But when it comes to our partners or friends, we objectify them as not being people as being specifically placed here on earth for us, and they have to be perfect. And when they disappoint us, they're not good enough. And it's a real challenge because, you know, it's unfair. It only leads to disconnection, which may be even eliciting the lack of whatever good enough means to people. So long story sure, good enough, a relationship that's good enough just as much the same way that we would apply to ourselves as saying, I'm enough. The way

that I am is enough. I don't need to be a gazillionaire. I don't need to have a 10-pack. I can make mistakes and I can still hold myself in high regard. That type of good enough. Right. And you explain this in your work as like having rules about abuse and safety or expectations about kindness and empathy is important. And I think for anybody listening, you know, there's, of course, that caveat out that that's not good enough. If someone is abusing you, hurting you, you don't feel safe. But let's say we put that in one box and then we have all the other types of relationships over here. How do you think people who are in relationships where there isn't abuse, there is safety, can identify when a relationship is good enough and when it's not for them?

I mean, this is the question, isn't it? I mean, I wish I knew. You know, as you're saying, we don't want to settle for a shitty relationship. We don't want to settle for a relationship where we're chronically feeling unsafe or hurt or mistreated. But, you know, this is the challenge of relationships. You know, we don't know. It's uncertain. We don't know what's going to happen in the future. There's a lot of ambivalence that I think people think they shouldn't feel.

But most of the time, doubt is something that comes in and out, whether you've been with somebody for six months or 20 years. And so it's an unanswerable question, really, I think. And I think everybody is very different in terms of what they're willing to tolerate. And I don't think that someone we should say that knew we shouldn't tolerate that. Everyone has to decide for themselves what's tolerable. Some people can tolerate somebody who's not communicative. And some people simply can't. You know, this is an individually specific and relationship-specific thing.

But what I notice when it comes to this question is it's more of an analytical and evaluative lens rather than an explorative and reflective lens. And I think if someone is at the point where they're saying, I don't know, like I'm stuck. Is this good enough? Could there be more? Blah, blah, blah. you're never going to be able to predict that, figure it out, positive and negative, pros and cons list isn't going to help you. Talking to 35 different people and getting their 35 differing opinions isn't going to help. What is going to help is if you develop

self-awareness and you make this a couple's issue, so you talk about whatever is lacking that's making you feel like the relationship isn't enough with your partner. You go to couples counseling with your partner and you work on a relationship, which for many people feels completely completely, completely antithetical to the experience of, maybe this doesn't work for me. But I think really the only way to figure out of something works is to try to make it work. And so from there, over a period of time, you will have much more information to go off of, is this going to work for me? And so the work isn't just on telling your partner that they suck and criticizing them

and telling them all of the ways in which they're not fulfilling your needs. the work is really identifying your role in the relationship, what the dynamic is, because it's both of you, and then working through that together. I really think all couples should go to therapy. I really don't think that anyone is equipped to work through their relationship. I wouldn't be. I'm a therapist. It's hard sometimes for me to differentiate between my own bias, my own trauma, my triggers, and what my partner is doing. It's so, so difficult because it's so, so emotional. And that's what I was talking about in my book, too, is I was so triggered for so long, and I didn't realize it. I thought it was just Alex doing these stupid things that pissed me off that was annoying or the ways in which he lacked capacity. But I was playing a role in it. And so we went to counseling, like, for half of a minute. But I was convinced that it was futile. And so it didn't try.

But so I would just tell people to try that, you know, your perspective is not as absolute as it has to be, nor is what you may be thinking. So this is pretty long-winded, but work on it, work on yourself. And through that, you learn about yourself. You learn about your partner and you learn about your relationship and you can end it. But I do think that people need, I got up track that, people need to go to therapy, to couples therapy so they can have someone who isn't in the relationship, who isn't triggered to push and challenge and call out couples on their shit. Yeah, I totally agree with you.

And I think that's something that I love about your work in. general and about this book is that it is very much rooted in reality and not this kind of like fantasy version of what we've been told these relationships should look like or can look like if you find the perfect right person and always coming to this back to this place of like how can we work on this? How can we collaborate and communicate is very important. So I'm very excited for everybody to get their hands on your book, how to love someone without losing your mind. And can you tell us where we can find you and your work? Yep. You can find me on Instagram at Your Diagnonsense. You can go to my website, which is my name, Todd S. Barrett's.com.

And there are links to everything there. Great. Amazing. Well, I'm so excited for everyone to get their hands on your book on June 4th. And thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for having me. This was fun. It was really great to connect. Finally. The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship between you and Calling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home's terms of service linked. in the show notes below.