CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Family Estrangement and Going No Contact with Patrick Teahan

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

Family estrangement and going no contact are deeply painful and complex experiences that impact both adult children and their parents. Often rooted in unresolved childhood trauma, unmet emotional needs, or longstanding power dynamics, estrangement reflects a significant breakdown in communication and trust within the family. Adult children may choose to distance themselves as a means of self-preservation or to heal from past harm, while parents may struggle to understand or accept these boundaries. Navigating this estrangement requires compassion, reflection, and, often, the willingness to embrace change. Letting go of traditional power structures in parent-child relationships and learning to relate as equals can open the door to healing and, in some cases, reconciliation. However, when reconciliation is not possible, it’s important to acknowledge the grief of disconnection and focus on personal growth and emotional well-being.  In this episode, we discuss adult-child relationships, family estrangement, and how to navigate these disconnections with a special guest, Patrick Teahan. Patrick is a Licensed Independent Clinical Social Worker (LICSW), childhood trauma specialist, and advocate for the Relationship Recovery Process therapy model. As a survivor of childhood trauma, Patrick brings both professional expertise and personal experience to the conversation to provide practical advice on letting go of power struggles, navigating grief when going no contact, and how both sides can work towards mutual understanding and growth.  Join us as we unpack these sensitive issues and explore pathways toward healing! What You Will Learn: [00:01] Intro and what in for you in today’s show with Patrick Teahan [02:39] Patrick’s experience in the parent and adult-child relationship space [07:39] The disconnect and what is happening in the parent-adult-child relationships [09:28] What trauma and abuse is and parental defense shame [14:05] How to fix relationships with estranged children [19:53] Relating as equals and how parent-children relationships change over time  [26:22] Working on yourself and accepting your parent for who they are [30:11] How to navigate the grief of going no contact  [35:54] The healing side of lack of connectivity and feeling estranged  [38:24] How to reach out and connect with Patrick  [39:16] Wrap up and end of the show Standout Quotes: “Abuse is anything that is less than nurture.” [09:37] “When a parent is self-righteous, it’s a sign of being massively triggered; you can’t teach someone who is defensive and triggered about human development.” [12:13] “You’re not going to die if you’re faulted; you’re not a bad person; what is going to fix the relationship with your children is to be open and admit some things were wrong.” [14:22] Let’s Connect Patrick Teahan  Website: https://www.patrickteahantherapy.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahanofficial/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@patrickteahanofficial Calling Home Podcast Have a question for Whitney? Call Home at 866-225-5466.  Join Whitney’s Family Cycle Breakers Club for further support and discussion on family dynamics at CallingHome.co. Follow the Calling Home community on Instagram. Click here to get “Toxic Positivity” on paperback.  Follow Whitney Goodman on Instagram or TikTok.  The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services, is not a substitute for advice from a qualified healthcare provider, and does not create any therapist-patient or other treatment relationship between you and Calling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home’s Terms of Service.  Mixing, editing, and show notes provided by Next Day Podcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Mitsubishi Motors. Drive your ambition. My guest today is Patrick Tien, a therapist who's here to talk with me about navigating and understanding the reasoning behind adult child relationships and estrangement. I'm Whitney Goodman. Welcome to the Calling Home podcast. I'm glad you're here. When I post on social media, I always expect to receive negative feedback from some people.

It's pretty normal. But what I've noticed is that when I'm... I post about parents not doing their best for their children and needing to acknowledge their past or present flaws, it can be quite triggering or activating for a lot of people and mostly those being parents of adult children. And this makes sense because as parents, we really want the best for our child. And it can be easier to sort of like build up this defense instead of acknowledging our mistakes. And what I love about this conversation with Patrick is how he really takes a look at this issue from both sides and provides a lot of insight on how parents can let go of

the power dynamic between adult and child and accept how to change moving forward. I think you'll love this conversation because it really felt like you're just able to sit in and listen to us talk about our experiences with this issue and with these populations. So let's go ahead and get to that. Great to see you. God, I'm really excited to be speaking to you today. Yeah, and we didn't get a chance to talk when you came to mine. It was just kind of blasting kind of into it. Yeah. And it's like, I don't know about you, but it's sort of like it feels a little bit isolating

to just kind of do what we do. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't know. I have a good friend, Nate Possellweight, who's a good resource to kind of connect with. He's a great guy. But what we do is wacky. I don't know if you're feeling that. I am.

You know, it's funny that you bring that up because I wanted to ask you, you know, since I've started talking a lot more, especially about adult child and parent relationships, I've kind of always talked about family relationships. But this one specifically, I have been getting so much negative feedback, so much like what I would classify as like harassment almost from. especially people like 55 and up, 60 and up. And I'm wondering if that's been your experience as well as you talk about these things. I feel like I'm blocking people constantly for being like really, really rude. Right, right. It got better when I changed my Instagram message settings, you know, in a way like, because I had that thing wide open and I'm still shooting in the dark with social media,

like in terms of like the only people who follow me. can message me now, but before it was a lot of that. And this may sound crazy, I don't know if you would feel about this, where I think when it comes to this stuff, I think when they go after women content creators more than they might, there's another thought to it as well. Like I get some of that stuff, but not every day. And at this point, like I've, from a self-care place, I now have a virtual assistant that answers my email.

That's good. Do you know what I mean, that someone can, you know, go to my contact form on my website and send me whatever. It doesn't matter how clear I spell the parameters of what you can contact me about. But yeah, like in that way, it's gotten so much better about just not being triggered and affected by it because. Yeah. Yeah. The place where other kind of connect on other content creators is about it. We are serving a population of people that don't believe that they can get better.

but yet they consume, like, our content. I don't know if you experienced that, but, like, one kind of, she made me chuckle. She was like, yeah, there's a lot of, like, zombies out there that just are just very, very dark and they don't want to, not that they don't want to get better, but there's, there's that too, which kind of affects me as well. Like, in other words, if I put out a post that is really about something tool-oriented or here's how you reparent your inner child or something like that, it doesn't do as well as like your dad's an asshole post. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's so true. I definitely notice Instagram doesn't get as bad for me. It's TikTok that gets like.

Oh, yeah, that's the Wild West. Wild. TikTok is a shit show. Yes. Yeah. It really is. Yes. It is. It's been, like, eye-opening to me how triggering some of the things that we talk about can be to certain people. And sometimes I'll say things that I think are so benign. And the reaction is a little bit shocking, you know, to those statements. And so it's, it's, it's been an interesting process. And I see you out there doing the same. So I was wondering if that was your experience as well. It is, you know, and I just have to remind myself that the most help I got in therapy was when my therapist was like, you know, you don't have to take, you don't have to talk to them. You don't have to take care of her. You don't have to, you know, you probably could benefit from getting some space. And that changed my life. I think for us, though, it's just so, you know, it's hard to be putting ourselves out there so much and then to be receiving that feedback. But that feedback is also really telling me about both.

society and how the family system, you know, and it's probably going to get worse for me. I'm about to put out like a spoof music video. I made up a song called But She's Your Mom, like all the things that we hear. So it's sort of like, you know, I do really kind of out there stuff in a way that I'm surprised I'm not getting attacked more about it because it's so many people. It must look so disrespectful. but for the people that we serve they're totally it's another thing i think i don't know if we mentioned this in the um you were a guest on the membership i've been in private practice since like

2013 and i'm just winding down all my clinical kind of energy and i've never had a client that was like man they didn't let me go to the school i wanted to do you know what i mean like in terms of like what people say who these folks are that they're just either complaining or they're really entitled, I've never had a client that didn't have a really, either horrific or really mind-eff parental system. It's never been somebody that was like that their expectations were off or they were super entitled or they were like presented as a teenager that's just like, my mom sucks. You know, it's never been like that. Never. I have the exact same experience and I think that's where I get really tripped up is like you know you and I are

meeting with hundreds interacting with hundreds of these people on a you know weekly monthly basis that to me it's so confusing the absolute like difference in what some of these parents are reporting is being said to them and what I'm hearing from the adult children you know it's it's mind-boggling to me. And I don't know if you want to speak to that, like what you think is happening. What is the disconnect there? Yes. I'm sure you're familiar with it. There was an article a couple of years ago called The Missing Reasons. Yes. And it really makes me think about that. Like if we were just family therapists and we just didn't know the family and they present in this way, I think it would be the same where the child who experienced childhood trauma

was sort of saying, you know, that classic thing like you divorced dad and then you brought in a really sexually off man into our life immediately. And we need to talk about that. And then the mom is just basically sort of saying, but we went on that school trip when you were, you know what I mean? Like, and I don't understand what you're saying. And, you know, so there's just such a huge disconnect that it's, you know, it's hard. as clinicians to not sort of see that as personality, character logical challenges within the parent or a deep immaturity or their own trauma and shame can just never go there about making a mistake or causing harm. Yeah. Yeah. I was reading an article. I totally agree with you. I was reading

an article this morning about, you know, how our definitions of what is considered like trauma and abuse have shifted so much and have become like much more expansive today. And I think, yeah, of course, we're talking about this more. We have a lot more awareness. But that's something I also run into a lot with parents is they are consistently asking define abuse. That's not abuse. My very pointed way. Yes. Yes. And like my child and I do not agree on what is considered abuse. And I'm wondering how you approach that question. Yeah, it's kind of a, it's a weird line in the sand. And I have this, I've been blessed to have a really wonderful mentor who sort of said,

abuse is anything that's less than nurturing as like a very just sort of, let's start there. And I think that in some ways, in a little bit of a defense of the parent is for millennia, the human family through generations has been rooted in survival. So when someone sort of says, well, define abuse, it's sort of like, I bet my dad who was highly abusive thought he was doing great compared to what he experienced. Do you know what I mean? Like it's like you have a Nintendo. You know what I mean? You have friends over?

Do you know what I mean? Like he was kind of thinking in that way and he did have a horrific childhood and was really a mentally off individual. But I think that when someone is pointedly saying define abuse, that's coming. from a very defensive place, it's coming from a not very psychologically savvy place because it's usually thought of in terms of materialism. You know what I mean? Like you were fed, clothed, education, you know, we're not, you didn't grow up in a war-torn country like I did if there's immigrants or, you know, a simulation. So I think it's just coming from all that stuff, but where the difference, I think, though, is in with the parents' mental health and their kind

of reason for their defensiveness. Do you know what I mean? Like is that coming from a place, I think, let's just say, it's an immigrant family that is assimilated into society. And the parent who was saying define abuse, they were raised by migrants who lived hand to mouth in a very horrific survival way and they were marginalized in society. And it's coming from that you have no idea place. Yeah, yeah.

Right, which in some ways is kind of, you know, and I can kind of see it from their angle in that way. But in terms of like wanting better for our children and wanting our children to be more like well-rounded or emotionally healthy or something like that, there's such a defensive, I don't know if I'm being clear, but there's such a generational defense about it that is kind of an F-U. and that's where I think about this a lot where the childhood trauma survivor who wants to either talk about it or set limits or set boundaries, they are seen as entitled. And I also find that when a parent is that self-righteous, like finger point, I don't mean to point my finger at you, you know what I understand. You know what I understand? Like being self-righteous is a sign of being massively triggered.

So what are they triggered about? And when we're triggered, we can really not be that empathic. So that's what kind of makes me think about, you know, it's definitely where my mom would go if the same question kind of come up, you know, like, oh, please, define abuse, you know. And unfortunately, like in some ways, then we're caught in such dissonance and differences that there's not, you can't, almost in some ways, you can't teach somebody who's that defensive and triggered about human development, you know, which is really what we're talking about. Yeah, I think that's so true that there are these. vast generational differences, right, in what is considered abuse, what isn't, and some of that is cultural and it's based on past experiences. But we also have such a more nuanced and developed perspective today about what certain things cause in childhood that we didn't have before. And so I think parents in that defensiveness get caught up in this like, it means I did it on purpose. It means I'm a bad person. It means I should be ashamed when some parents were really

emotionally neglectful because they had no idea any other way to be. But I think we can still look at the information now and say, huh, I can see how that would have impacted you. I can see why that would have been hard. Now with the information I have today, I'd like to make different decisions in the present with you, which I think is where a lot of people get stuck. I don't know about you, but so many of the adults I talk to are like, I can get over the past, but I can't get over what's happening in the present. And I need that to change. Right. So true. Really true what you just said. It makes me think about this thing where, you know, from an empathic place, I almost want to say to parents who are struggling with their kids who are estranged, they may not

want to hear it. But I almost want to say, like, you're not going to die if you were faulted. Do you know what I mean? You're not, this isn't sort of so much about like you're a bad person. You know what I mean? Like in other ways, like, what's actually going to fix the relationship with your children is to be open and maybe even admit some things were wrong. But for everyone as childhood trauma survivors, there's this thing. I think that is, you know, let's just say mom or dad is a child, a trauma survivor. They don't do any work on it. They know they had some stuff going on, but they just powered through life.

And I find that if their children come to them and want to set boundaries or do something, they really feel like they've been kicked while they've been down. And I think that that's where that's some of that either defensiveness or self-righteous kind of comes from. But it's kind of sad from my end in a way that you could really fix the relationships with your children and even yourself by being open. And it sounds goofy, but it's just, you're not going to die to sort of admit that that was a bad choice to bring that man into our lives or to bring that woman into our lives.

And that must have had a huge impact on you and I'm defensive about it. And I, you know, because it's really, because I just, that was a horrific experience. I just want to put away. You know what I mean? So it's like for them to be honest about you coming to. me with this is going to make me feel things. And just think about the healing that would come from that. You know what I mean? Just like, or the honesty about it. But what I To succeed in the future of work, forward thinkers use AI to deliver measurable results. Workday

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Product availability may vary by Regency app for details. Find, in my experience is when my clients have had to want to have those conversations. with them, there's usually this kind of, oh, hold the phone, though. I was going through a really bad time, and you know what I mean? And I had no idea who that man was and your father and the situation and everything but my choices. I don't know if I'm making sense there. No, you absolutely are. I've definitely heard those same responses. And I think what you're really capturing well here is that if the parent and the child could just have this exchange, of feelings and emotions and experiences that felt very honest and didn't have to include

like, I'm such a terrible person, you must hate me, you know, not this like self-deprecating type of thing. Like, I think there's so many adult children I've talked to that would really be like, wow, thank you for just being in this experience with me and acknowledging that that was a really shitty time in our lives, you know, and that was hard. Even if it wasn't your quote-unquote fault, we can still talk about it. And some things are absolutely the parents' fault and other things are bad luck, you know, or circumstances or whatever it is. But I think we can still acknowledge the power differential, right, between child and parent during those really scary

moments and how the adult might just want to hear it explained back to them so they can understand. Well said. Well said. It's also a tricky thing because, you know, a parent estranged or feeling attacked in that moment, they lose sight that when their child was 15, they had no power or choices to change their situation. Like in a way, the goofy thing about parenting is like, you know, there's just this kind of, it's almost how a corporate, this is probably a bad example, but probably how a corporate officer has to take responsibility for the whole thing in that way,

that that's kind of a truth there that I often find missing from defensiveness or self-righteousness in the parent is sort of saying, I'm sorry, but you were driving the bus at the time. Your 13-year-old didn't have the power to come to you and tell you what was going on. probably from prior experience about like how you're even defensive now you know like it's just

it's not it's not a good it's not a good time so it is it is a really really tricky thing but I find that you know when I really think about what would heal these relationships is I really think it's that parent either reacting from a mental health condition where there's not a lot of unfortunately there's not a lot of wiggle room to make the connection there or they're coming at it from defensive shame like you're not going to get me I'm not going to you know what I mean my life has been so shitty and I've tried so hard you're not going to you know what I mean put me on I'm not going to admit to this and like be crucified for it right exactly because then I think that that what they're also defending event is their own childhood like say if that

parent was scapegoated or the family had this rule about, you know, if you make a mistake, you're an asshole forever. Yeah. I'm just loving getting your take on some of these things that I always come up against in this work. So another thing that I want to ask you about is like so many people say, you know, they're adults now. And so the relationship is equal, right? The relationship should be happening between two equals parent and adult child. And I'd love to hear what you think about that argument. That is kind of fascinating to me because it's sort of like the human relationships do change over time. Do you know what I mean? Like when you're now 28 and you have a fiance or you have your own children and there's, you know what I mean? Like there's not there's not this

dynamic around you're still on their cell phone plan or something like that. Yeah. You know, I don't know how I was to kind of just describe it. But can you give me the context more? Would that be sort of an estranged parent saying that? Yeah. I think that's typically what I hear is like they're an adult now. You know, if there's discord, estrangement, fighting something between the parent and the adult child, it's this belief that we should be able to communicate totally as equals

about this issue. and almost like we carry the same weight when it comes to reestablishing the relationship, solving the problem, whatever it is. Oh, I see that as like a tangential thing where in some ways is that concept weaponized by the parent. Like, look, you're an adult now. You can pick up the phone and we can work this out where I don't find that that I wouldn't really exactly trust that. and it makes me think about the concept

for these family situations of reconciliation like you know parent is asking for reconciliation I don't really believe that it's real reconciliation I often find that it's the parent having an agenda to say look it was hard for me too or look you're being entitled

or look you have no idea what it's like to be a parent that's just what comes to mind like in those scenarios like if it was we could also reverse that to say yeah dad we are adults and adults have the capacity for ownership or accountability or openness or not being so defensive or they can be emotionally more intelligent or you know all of those things but I don't know if that answers your question in that way no it it does I think I struggle with that argument because no one has really been able to quantify for me when that shift happens like is it when your child turns 18

that you are suddenly equals. And I find that it's difficult to erase everything that led up to that age, to being in adulthood with your parent and not include that power differential of those, you know, 18 years where you did have power over your child in all areas of life. And I think that's what a lot of estranged parents might be saying is kind of like, okay, we're on the same footing now. So let's talk like two adults that just met today. And let's forget everything that came before.

Yeah, it just sounds sneaky to me, though. You know what I mean? Like just it may be not really relevant, but it's almost in my mind. I see the shift of it being equal is when our parent is needing elder care. and we've gone from being the child to a caretaker. Yes, I totally agree with you. I think it's a long road. Do you know what I mean?

I guess what I'm sort of saying, if my son is 30 whatever and has his first child, my M.O. is still going to be, what do you need? Yeah. Do you need a weekend off? Do you need me to run to Target and get the weird pillow thing? Because you know what I mean? You're still in that caregiver type of position.

I'm still in that caretaking role, you know what I mean? Because I love them and I appreciate them. I also want to be part of that experience. Do you know what I mean? But I also think for an estranged parent, it becomes a slippery slope because they can now cherry pick when are you an adult in that way? Like in other words, you often talk about the grandmother issue of not of excluding grandmother from because of behaviors or something like that. So in a way like a great, you know, like, you know, well, we're adults now. You can talk to me. But when I'm in the presence of your three-year-old, I get to scream. You know what I mean? Yes. Yes. Or the reasons for those behaviors. It's just sort of like it's hard. Yeah. I totally

agree with you. And in my experience, that's a pattern that I find is that I want us to be equal adults in these situations. But in these situations, I want to have power over you. And I want to have authority. I think that they're saying, look, we're adults now. You need to hear me out. You need to be an adult and listen what I have to say, which isn't very different than being 14 years old. And the parent is saying, my way of the highway, my rules. It's just sort of like, I think it's just a little bit sneaky. I think that people can use a little bit of psychological things to come across as savvy

when it's really emotional immaturity. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot trackside. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of all. lifetime. That's the powerful banking of Amex. Pre-sale tickets for future events subject to availability and varied by race. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at mx.ca.com slash Y-Anex. Bank more on course when you switch to a Scotia Bank banking package. Learn more at scotia bank.com slash banking packages. Conditions apply. Scotia Bank. You're richer than you Yeah. And, you know, it's, of course, I think we can both argue or agree that everyone needs to show up to these interactions as respectfully as possible to communicate in a healthy way, to be understanding. Like, I don't, I think sometimes there's this misnomer that like people are saying adult children can just like scream at their parents and be abusive and do whatever they want because they were hurt by their parents, which is not at all what's being.

preached at least certainly not by you and I from what I've seen you know well if I do this is going to sound bananas I I really encourage them there's literally a thing in the model of therapy RRP that I do is sort of like don't bring that energy in person to your present to your parents if you're working through rage if you're working through sadness or anxiety do that work in the therapy room yeah because in a similar way trauma sets us up to sort of be abusive in many. Do you know what I mean? Like, and we don't want to, we don't want to be sort of regurgitating that family stuff onto somebody else. So we do it in the, in the therapy room. And, you know, communication with the parent can be phone calls or letters or whatever,

but it's done from a different place. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Because that behavior can certainly be weaponized, right? You know, if it's, you start treating your parent that way when you're trying to fix the relationship, I can see how they would look at that and say, Well, look at what you're doing to me, you know. Yeah. And I also see it as I often find that, you know, we come from these families and then we start to do some work on ourselves and we kind of maybe awaken to the dysfunction or abuse or toxicity.

And then I believe our inner child goes, okay, I'm going to talk to them and set them straight. Yeah. I'm going to try to get them to be the family that I need and get through to them. That could look like in the form of sending them self-help books or articles or having nasty conversations or a lot of going into conversations powerless and still trying to get them to do something. And I think that that is just coming down to codependency where we're still trying to change someone who doesn't want that change, you know, in a very primal way.

You know what I mean? Just to really strip it down. And that's going to prevent us in a big way from our emotional growth, is trying to get mom to leave dad or get dad to leave the step mom or whatever because we're not really seeing them for who they are. Absolutely. Yeah, we did a month inside of calling home about accepting your parents and that what you're speaking to is a big part of it of like not accepting your parents in the way of accepting them. You have to have a relationship with them, but accepting what's in front of you and how they are. And I think for most of the people that came to our groups,

what you're speaking about was the biggest struggle, right? Of like, I still feel like I have, I can fix this. I can make them different. I can make this better. And if I just send the letter in this perfect way, if I send the books, if I do this, like, they're going to come around. And people stay stuck in that phase for decades sometimes. Yeah. I kind of call it like the, it's like the codependency code, the right tone, the right letter, the right word, the right article, like that, you know. But for the listener is when we do, it's kind of like in stages, when we accept that they're not going to change and we can't get them to be who we are. And then the hardest thing, even a horrific emotional experience is then grieving the loss of that possibility because

that's the thing that keeps us going. Absolutely. But then after that is the most growth you will ever have in your life in my world of becoming who you want to be, of choosing better relationships, of being more empowered, even it sounds goofy, but really if you struggle with having an identity, that's the road to becoming ourselves. And that was my experience is when I really kind of let go of my own parent from being what I needed or even wanting to punish them, you know what I mean? wanting them to sort of feel bad for what they did is stepping out of that and moving away from it and was huge, huge growth. Absolutely. So I want to pivot a little bit. Something else that's

been coming up a lot in the groups that I've been running and maybe you've been seeing this too is I feel like a lot of the content about parental estrangement that's out there, adult child, parent relationships is a lot about parents who are overly involved. They're crossing boundaries. They want to reconnect with their child. The child is having to field all of this contact with them. But I am hearing a lot from a group of people who are dealing with the fact that their parents actually aren't reaching out to them. And they're not trying to resume contact or to violate their boundaries and they're having this other type of grief in response to that. And I'm wondering if that's something you're seeing in your work as well. Yeah. I think I've done a couple of videos and I have

an e-course around how to navigate going no contact. And in one of those places, I give the example that one of the hardest examples is you do all this work to either send a letter and set a boundary or something like that, but the hardest experience is not the attack or the retribution that comes from something like that. It's the radio silence. Yes, so true. And just to think about that, like we're so, you know, and that's telling a much bigger and longer story than just the person trying to maybe walk away from a family system. And some parents are really intrusive and they're on their children or, you know, way too many texts throughout the day. And, you know, there's really no fancy term. There's really no

individuation because the parent needs you, you know, and then can be really nasty when you're not showing up for them. That's one presentation. Yeah. That's hard to go no contact, its own difficulty there. But for the parent who is just maybe avoidant and depressed and kind of dismissive and very much in a stuck place, they get that letter and they're just like, typical, fuck my life, you know what I mean? Or that's just one small example of that and there's no response. And then that no response is another layer of kind of triggering because, you know what I mean? It's sort of like we need, I think what we're all trying to do is in the first initial step is I think we're trying to have an impact and say, hey, this is what this

relationship is like. And to kind of get ghosted within that is kind of wild. It's just a different level of grief. It's a different level of difficulty, you know. Yeah, I'm finding that as well, and especially like as people are talking in a group, you know, and sharing stories of like, well my mom keeps calling me or texting me and sending me letters and then you have someone saying the other person's like i wish they would call me exactly that's that's exactly the response is almost like oh i wish that my parent was like trying to make contact with me and they're both frustrated in their own way but i've found that to be like a group that's that's really growing and i think that radio silence is very painful because you can interpret that like you're

saying is like oh wow they really don't care they're not even trying to interact with me and to reframe it sending those letters or having those conversations are huge moments of really maybe even the final moments of individuals breaking their denial about what their family is like or what their parents is like yeah so it's sort of like I don't like I don't like I don't encourage clients to test anybody, to test their partner if they're going to notice that they're in a bad mood or test their mom and dad if they're going to have a certain reaction or something like that. But I will say that someone crafts a no contact letter, they're getting space to work on

themselves or they've tried many, many times to have a conversation going about bettering the relationship or something like that. And then when there's radio silence, I would reframe that pain as a moment to confirm something they've always have felt about their parent. Yeah. That their parent might phone in their emotional connection with their child or not know how to do that. You know what I mean?

So unfortunately, it's just it does, it does come down to like, wow, you really don't care. You really are removed that you have a relationship with a child. You know what I mean? Like that is a, you know, that's super hard. But at the same time, too, like that is, I don't really like likening it to this, but it's sort of like a five-year-long relationship that ends up in a breakup. Yeah.

And they've been with someone that's been really stuck, really shut down, and they've tried to support them the whole time through the relationship. And then when it comes, they've been desperate and alone for a year before they even get to the point of breaking up. and then they have that conversation with the person in a coffee shop and the person is just like, okay, whatever. Yep, yep. And they just get up and get in their car and take off.

You know what I mean? There's no conversation. Yeah. And it's not that different than that. Yeah. But that behavior is painful. But that behavior is going to confirm for them the last five years of that relationship and looking at like, what was I, why was I in that?

You know what I mean? Like, what was I trying to fix there? or what was I trying to get through? Not that it's all about their codependency or something. Yeah. No, that's very true. And I think that's really helpful for anyone listening who might be in that position, you know, where they're wondering, like, gosh, what is wrong with me

that my parent isn't even trying to reach out in response to what I'm saying? And, like, are all these other people who have parents trying to violate their boundaries and contact them and show up at their door, you know, do their parents care? more about them when really it's all like manifestation of the same stuff in a certain way that's just coming out differently. Yeah, it does. Yeah, I think both scenarios and a lot of the stuff, even if the family system is really blatantly and abusive or with high toxicity, or the family is really kind of just tricky, shut down. Things look good on paper, but there's really no emotional connection. The symptoms are the same.

You know, everyone's going to be struggling with intimacy, some depression, some anxiety, not knowing who they are. And it's just where it's kind of a weird phenomenon in that way, you know. But I will say, like there's, if there could be a plus side to that, that's that when clients started to do work with me, and if they were already estranged from parents because of that lack of connectivity, do you know what I mean? Like it's really kind of a ships in the night kind of family. family. They've moved halfway across the country. They have a better start in doing hard

work on their childhood trauma than someone who comes in and is sort of like every day I have a panic attack when my mother calls. Yeah. Yeah. They're still very much like entrenched in the patterns. Right. That is in some ways harder because then working with them is to really working from the beginning of, well, how does it feel when she bullies you over text about why you're not calling back. Yeah. You know what I'm it's a very different kind of a thing. But on the other side of grief, though, in that work is the person who hasn't talked to

their family in five years. The family is so estranged and disconnected and fragmented. They down the road may have a harder time embracing connections with others because their messaging was, it's not really worth it. You know what I mean? Or that people aren't really interested. So there's just different really ways of kind of getting to a healing place about these things. So true.

Well, I think this is a perfect place for us to wrap up our conversation. I feel like this is going to be so helpful for anyone that listens that is in either one of those situations or dealing with any type of discord between them and their parent. And I hope that this episode is also helpful for any parents that are looking to understand maybe what is going on. with their adult child. So thank you so much, Patrick, for being here. And I'd love if you could tell us, you know, where can everyone find you? Is there anything that you have coming up that you'd like to share? Please go ahead. You can find me on YouTube and TikTok and Instagram and my website, Patrick T.intherapy.com. I run, right now, there's currently a wait list going about it, but I run a monthly membership, monthly healing community where childhood trauma survivors work on

many things that we've touched on in this video where there's, you know, you've been a guest on it, which was amazing. I loved having you in that we're working as a community to reparent our inner child and get more educated on these family systems and kind of get some answers. So that's really kind of like where most of my focus goes on these days. Love it. Absolutely. And your community is wonderful and there's a lot of great people in there. And I know we have some overlap between people that are in calling home and in your community. I saw a couple of familiar faces when I was on there. I was like, oh, nice. Yeah, yeah. So it was really nice to see that. Well, great. I so appreciate you coming on today. And thank you again. Thank you so much for having me. Of course.

The Calling Home Podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist patient or other treatment relationship between you and Colin Holm or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Collingholm's terms of service linked in the show notes below.