CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - How To Grieve: Young Grievers, Ambiguous Loss, and Support After The Door Dash Gift Card Phase with Carla Fernandez.

Episode Date: April 8, 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back! I am so excited to have Carla Fernandez on the podcast today. She's a grief guide, community builder, the author of Renegade Grief, and co-founder of The Dinner Party, an organization that creates spaces where people who have experienced loss can gather around a table and share their stories. Carla's work centers on reimagining how we approach grief, not just as individuals but as communities, especially in a culture that often rushes us to move on or only makes space for certain kinds of grief. We discuss young grievers, toxic positivity, what people get wrong about grieving, and losing someone you don't exactly "miss." Join The Family Cyclebreakers Club: www.callinghome.co/join Have a question for Whitney? Call in and leave a voicemail for the show at 866-225-5466. Follow Whitney on Instagram: www.instagram.com/sitwithwhit Subscribe to Whitney's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@whitneygoodmanlmft Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you're with Amex Platinum, you get access to exclusive dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best tapas in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca. www.ca slash yamex. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the calling home podcast.

I'm your host, Whitney Goodman. I am so excited to have an interview episode today with Carla Fernandez. She's a grief guide, community builder, and co-founder of the dinner party, an organization creating spaces where people who have experienced loss can gather around a table and share their stories. Carla's work centers on reimagining how we approach grief, not just as individuals, but as communities, especially in a culture that often rushes us to move on or only make space for certain kinds of grief. In my own work, I hear from so many people grieving not just the loss

of a loved one, but the loss of complicated relationships like estrangement, unfinished stories, and families that weren't safe or supported. I'm really looking forward to exploring with Carla how we can build new forms of care, ritual, and connection when grief doesn't fit the typical mold. Let's go ahead and dive into the episode. So this is such a full circle moment because when I was building calling home for like the year before I launched it, I had looked at the dinner party website as like something that we were, you know, looking at what else was out there. So then it's very exciting to meet you after having already looked at that. So I know that a lot of your work is around reimagining grief and like reconceptualizing how we deal with grief. Can you tell me a little bit more about like what that means to you

and why you've taken that project on? Of course. Well, I'm glad to hear that we popped up in your you know, whatever kind of search engine optimization was happening. They're happy to hear that we landed on your desk and yeah, I think we live in like similar but different ecosystems. So most people who work in or care about or talk about the grief space and culture around grief have had some kind of experience with loss themselves. And I am one of those people. My dad was diagnosed with brain cancer when I was a senior in college and I moved like from my college dorm into his apartment where I cared for him in the final six months or so of his life. And I fancied myself a community activist, community builder before my dad got sick. And when I entered into the caretaking years, it felt kind of like a detour from my vocation. But the more time I

spent both in the kind of end of life moment and as a griever, a young griever out in the world, I realized that there really hadn't been much creativity or innovation brought to the field of death and loss. That has significantly changed. This is now 15 years ago. And it's been so cool to watch this reimagining that you're referencing the, you know, coming to bloom. Still a lot of work to do. But early on, I had this feeling that like grieving is something that human beings have been doing in community for thousands and thousands and thousands of years. And yet in a sort of 21st century America that I lived in, it felt like we were pretty good for like the first 40 days, the kind of memorial door dash gets card for takeout. sending thoughtful cards, but days 41 and beyond, I felt really a drift in my grief and

like I didn't have people who I could relate to around it, mostly because I was the first person in my friend group to experience the death of a parent. And it was in that kind of era where I went on this Goldilocks style quest to try to figure out what I was craving. And I went to therapy and it was incredible, but the sessions would always get really good around minute 45 and then it would be time to go. And I went to some traditional group support groups, but oftentimes they were either geared for kids, like younger adults,

and we'd like pass the teddy bear around as a talking stick. And I remember being like, it wasn't for me. And going to group support groups for people who were losing parents at maybe a more natural time in life. So our 70, 80-year-old parent died, which meant they were 50, 60 or 70, and I felt sort of like the black sheep.

And the thing that I was so hungry for was the thing that I loved to do with my dad the most, which was to cook meals and sit around our family dinner table and break bread and have long wandering conversations about big questions in life. And it kind of inspired me to host a dinner where I could gather with other people who had experienced loss and we could stop avoiding the subject as we've been so well trained to do, but instead make it kind of like the main dish, so to speak. And my co-founder and friend at the time, Lenin Flowers, was there that first night. And it was a powerful opening to what has been 15 years of community organizing and work and sort of helping to lay the tracks for this idea that wants to arrive into culture, which is kind of manifested in both the dinner party community and this book, Renegade Greece.

I love it because I think that you're so right that when you are younger, like a young adult or an adult who, you know, know, is losing their parents at a time or any family member at a time where there's so much more life to live, the grief is very different, right? And we have a lot of people that listen to this podcast, you know, that are contending with, like, taking care of a parent as they age, losing a parent, you know, to illnesses far sooner than they thought that they would. And I think you're so right that there has to be kind of like a different space to discuss. that like were there any unique challenges that you saw coming up you know whether that was for yourself or in that population that was grieving that type of loss at that stage of life

it's an interesting kind of overlooked era you know there was there's amazing bereavement resources for children and like i had before there's traditional grief support which is often filled with people that are maybe a little bit older in life i found that this demographic that we are working with demographic being like a technical term for like me and my friends at the time were oftentimes not not living in the places where we had grown up because we were sort of starting our careers out in the world so we didn't have the kind of familiarity and sense of community that you might if you you know we're we're in the community where you grew up or that people knew your context or knew the person who passed away oftentimes we were in this

kind of in between era where we no longer have lived with our family but we did yet have a family of our own. You know, the first dinner party was like in this busted rental house. But I lived in with like four other random people I met on Craigslist. And like they were all characters. And also I didn't feel like I had yet found the people with whom I could really deeply connect until I gathered around that dinner party table. And I think oftentimes another element is that we are the first people in the friend group to go through it. So while if, you know, when my mother eventually goes, assuming she will. Pretty sure she will. And I'm later in life. I know of a few people who've lost a mother who I could call and talk to. But when I was 21, I didn't have any numbers in my phone. I didn't

have any relationships with people who lost her father. So in some ways, it's like we are the firsts in that era. Yeah. And then I think there's like some broader cultural reasons why this needed to be different in the like the generation that I'm a part of. I'm like elder, elder millennial outing myself. Oftentimes, like a little bit less trust. of institutions craving, you know, this idea came up in the era of like the sharing economy and, you know, the internet and this sort of idea of, I don't want to do great support in the basement of the hospital where my dad got cancer treatment. Like, can we do this somewhere that feels more human, more homey, more warm, more alive, less like in the dying of it still?

So I think some of the cultural changes that were happening around that time sort of gave us permission to think creatively and innovatively about, like, what is the backdrop that would feel best for this kind of conversation? And the truth is, it's not a new idea. Like, human beings have been feasting the dead since, like, as long as we know of human history. So in many ways, it was like a return to a very simple, very old concept of like we grieve collectively and we grieve over food and we find ways to continue to tell their stories and or slapped on the life they lived in a life, we are now living in their absence. And I think it's why it felt so natural from the jump. Yeah. It's so true that, you know, I did some bereavement work when I first started working as a

therapist or like when I was in school. And it was very much in the location where the person was getting treatment or they had passed. I did a lot with, you know, cancer, people who had cancer and their family members. And you would be in a center where there were also people coming who were still dealing with the illness and it was all very sad and like very triggering and I think very hard for people to really like progress into this next stage of grieving in a way because they were still being like they were inundated with like seeing other people that were dealing with the thing that their loved one had just gone through they're on the other side and they're also going back and revisiting you know this place where all of this stuff happened that I think there's

something so powerful about like giving people space outside of that like like integrating grief into the real world which I think is something that we kind of don't want to do like it's almost like we try to compartmentalize it even with like how people get time off of work to grieve right it's like you've got seven days and then you got if you're lucky yeah and so you know I'm wondering like how do you see grief being integrated, like into people's actual lives and giving people the space to grief? I think part of why I titled the book Renegade Grief is that if you follow the cultural norms around grief and loss, you actually won't create any space for it. And like, if you're lucky to get the seven days off, more likely it's three, you're, you know, expected. to be kind of back in the office and my organization, the dinner party, does some workaround

workplace readiness for grief. But anyways, it made me realize that like we, in order to tend to your grief, you have to be like a little bit of a rebel or like a little bit of an outlaw. And it requires you to spend time and space reflecting on like what is your, what is your personal answer to that question of how is my grief going to be integrated into the life that I'm now living. What I love about the dinner party model is that it meant that it was like a, you know, a Thursday night from six to eight. We could gather and talk about the person who's no longer here and how we're navigating

dynamics with dating and work, et cetera, and it's intersection with our grief. And then we could clean up and like go out dancing or we could meet up with those people in another context where we're not talking about grief and not specifically. And it sort of allowed for this creation of circle. of friends where you could titrate between what's coming up in your grief, but also like what's the show that you're binging or what's the person you're crushing on or how are you navigating relationships with the living or sort of about the whole 360 degrees of like a whole person with grief being just as welcome there as all of the other things that we kind of default to talk

about. So I think that's my like advice in air quotes because I always hesitate to give advice, but I think my advice is like find people with whom you don't have to pause and calibrate before you introduce the thing into the conversation that is relevant to your grease. Like find the relationships where you feel safe enough to be like, oh, it's my dad's death anniversary next week. I'm like, I don't know what to do about it. Can we brainstorm? And then segue into like, you know, whatever the thing is you're doing next.

So, and I think there's as each of us individually can help that make that, boundary a little more porous by being comfortable and confident introducing the fact that we are grieving into conversation and normal. That's not always the right thing to do when I'm a big fan of privacy and being selective of that one to share, et cetera, et cetera. And as we get more comfortable with our own stories around grief, I think there's a real value in kind of walking the talk of not keeping it in that compartment over to the side. Yeah. I love that because I think the, you know, we can move into a conversation sort of about like myths and societal norms around grief, but I think we are expected, right, to like get over it. Like to grieve, box it up, not bring it up

anymore, not make people uncomfortable with your grief. And having spaces where it can just be part of the conversation and it doesn't like derail the people around you or scare them off is so so important. And I think it's wonderful that you're facilitating that for people so that they can have all of those things, you know, in a relationship. But I guess I'd love to know, like, what do you think are some of the most harmful myths or misunderstandings about grief that people get stuck in? One of, we had an event this weekend and there was in the Q&A, two family members started to kind of have a dialogue between each other in a way where I was like, okay, let's see where this goes.

But the conversation ends up being about how one of the family members had brought up the fact that the other family member's daughter had recently died because he was really afraid that if he mentioned her, he would bum her out. And so kind of erased her from the family history. And then that made it's like a dramatic way to talk about it, but wasn't saying her name because he was afraid that if by saying her name it would upset her bereaved mother and the mom was like are you kidding me i'm thinking about my late daughter like every minute of every day and like you're not going to oh you're not going to like oh suddenly remind me about her by saying her name you're actually

going to help me feel seen and normalized that like it still feels so wrong and strange that like she's no longer here so that to me was a moment of like one of the mega myths that is causing so much unnecessary harm is the like, if I don't know what to say, I'm just not going to say anything at all. Or if I don't, if I don't want to bring it up because I'm afraid that I'm going to upset you by reminding you that your daughter died. And there's so many other, you know, thing, there's so much of their verbiage we can use of, you know, I don't, I can't imagine how you're feeling right now. Or I think about, you know, being honest. I think about her all the time. Or is it okay if? but too often we just decide to like sweep them under the rug yeah so that's one big myth

I think another one everybody when I like you know talk to crowds of people and I'm like what do you know about grief everybody there's always the hand that goes up that's talking about elizabeth Kubler-Ross's five stages of grief and she was awesome like I have so much respect for that woman and the five stages of grief that she kind of pioneered actually were the results of her studying people who were dying. And it was like the steps that somebody would go through as they prepared for their own death. And she later kind of extrapolated them to apply also to grieving.

But in many ways, so kind of our Western mind's desire for like, give me a simple five boxes I can check, took this research out of context, and turned it into like a linear sequential. Once you complete step one, two, three, four, five, then you're done. And I've heard, I've had conversations with so many people,

who feel like they're doing it wrong because that framework isn't matching their experience when in reality it's like a wasn't even the right framework to be working against in the first place. And there's so much other incredible research that's come out since then that disproves it or builds on it or strengthens parts of it or complexifies it, but we're still stuck in the kind of share graphic of like, you know, denial bargain, et cetera. And then I think the third myth that I like to talk about because I'm, obsessed with debunking it is the sort of like time heals all and the kind of like just wait

about and the sort of ways that our culture relates to grief is like a thing that you could put in a shoebox and like shove under your bed until it disintegrates and disappears when in reality how I relate to grief is like it is not a thing that we need to get the heck away from it is a verb like a muscle that we need to practice using because actually it's one of the most like exquisite technologies that our body knows how to do, our minds, our hearts, our bodies. And it's a thing that helps us process our relationship to impermanence. And like, guess what? Grease is all around us, right? It has always been and it is now and it, you know, with climate change and all of the other ships that happening on our planet, like it's only going to increase

from here. So I'm really interested in how do we shift the narrative from like grief is a thing to get away from. Time will heal it if you just kind of like leave it in the closet to rot into no grief is like a critical life skill and to actually be like an active alive participating member of a family of society of a culture it's naming like it's in the room I know what it feels like in my body I have my own ways to to work with it and I'm not afraid to talk about it and I have people with whom I can get support when I when I need it so anyways these are my soap boxes that I just love to get up on because it feels like so important Yeah. The time heals all wound, wounds line. I am like the biggest hater of on the planet.

Do you want to rail on it a little bit? I, you know, I dedicated like so much of my, of my own book and my own work to that line because I do think like it, you're so right. It gives people this promise almost that like if I just wait enough, the pain's going to go away, right? And then they think there's something wrong with them if that doesn't happen. And we actually. know, like, there's so much research that, like, time and lack of access to resources and support is actually just, like, things get worse most of the time. You know, time might heal, like, a little thing that you're upset with, but not this huge, like, gaping open wound that often, like, grief leaves. And I think that totally connects to what you're saying about the five stages of grief, that it's the same mindset where people are like, okay, check that step off. I can move to the next one. And they get very confused and resort to shame and self-blame when they're like drifting back into stages, right?

And so I think it's so important to debunk any of those myths because to me it's like if you lose someone, someone dies that you love and you really care about, like, I don't know that I want that to totally go away. I don't want to forget that person. I don't want to like I want that to be there. especially for people who lost a child, who lost, you know, some of the, it's like, why is that the goal, you know? I don't, I don't know. Like, is, is that something that you ever think about or have had people bring up? 100%. Yeah. To like, you know, the, yeah, I think that there's so much to say about that, about the way in which the work actually becomes not getting over your grief or like erasing them from your history or forgetting that they ever existed, the work becomes

how do you hold the polarity that is like I can miss them and also be excited about the life I'm living even in their absence. Right. And, you know, I think so much of grief becomes about holding opposites, which I feel like Western culture is not always great about doing. Like, for example, my dad was Jose Fernandez the third, my brother's the fourth, and the fifth, Jose Fernandez the fifth was just born last year. My brother had a son. And his wife is Catholic, and we baptized him in this beautiful ceremony, and we're standing around as a family.

And in this afternoon, you know, it's been 15 years since my dad died. And within this moment, there's so many different. notes on the kind of grief keyboard are being hit because it's not just like a sad note it's like sure I'm sad I'm totally he would have he wouldn't have loved this and also like I'm so thrilled for my for my brother's family and also like you know my my stepmom's new boyfriend is there like there's there's another man in the room and like feeling into that and being stoked for her but also like wouldn't that be nice if that was my dad but he's gone and just feeling like the you know It wasn't like I got knocked on my ass kind of grief, but like it felt really important

to be able to name his absence and also the fact that like it was a beautiful day. And I think that's like what I am interested in working towards and what ends up happening around the dinner party table is like normalizing the moments where grief continues to kind of like poke its head up and remind you that it's there. And and having that be something that is like a part of that very, very healthy life as opposed to like a problem to be solved. Totally. And something that could actually be seen as like so positive and beautiful, I think, to be able to see like, look at this legacy, you know, that has been carried on and look at, you know, what our family has built and been able to go through. And like,

it can all exist at once. But I think that feeling that comes up of like, oh, this feels uncomfortable. It's like grief. It's, it makes people feel like they're failing sometimes at the of like grieving and getting over it you know quote unquote that I think it's so important to normalize that like that's actually it's a good thing to be able to have that come up yeah it feels like toxic positivity culture which you know so much about is like it is wants to completely ignore the reality of the fact that like there is real heartbreak that through the heartbreak can be a portal towards like deeper love, deeper connection, and also connection to our ancestors. You know, I feel like it's so, in refusing to grieve or in ignoring it or in demonizing it,

we are connecting ourselves off from a connection with like the legacy, the people we have come from, the people who have come before them. And I don't even think we can fully grok, like how much has been lost in that cultural change. Yeah. Something I'm really curious about that I just thought of is like, do you ever deal with any competitiveness over grief in these spaces? Like, almost like my grief is not allowed to be as big as yours because of what I lost. One of the guidelines that's emerged to kick off the dinner party conversations is like along the lines of like there's no grief Olympics. And like, and I've experienced it and heard stories from both sides of the table of someone feeling like their loss isn't adequate or legitimate enough

to need tending or, you know, the other side around or someone's like, I know how you feel my 90-year-old grandparent died in response to like someone's sibling dying, that kind of thing. So it feels like there's so much work in this of leading with eye statements, kind of like being within your own experience, having compassion and empathy for others. and like doing your damnedest to not compare. And like, you know, there's sometimes value of being like, okay, shoot, I'm, I'm, my dad died when I was 21. Like, I've been in a conversation with people who didn't get their, didn't get their teenage

years with their parent. And I've had moments of being like, okay, well, at least I, at least I got that. You know, I think in some ways it can put things into perspective. But I think that the kind of grief competition, the grief Olympics of it all can also be really harmful and damaging and it's something that we have to keep our eyes on. Yeah, totally. You know, that comes up a lot in therapy and in the groups I run of sort of people couching any of their feelings with like, I know it's not as bad as this or it could be worse. And sometimes you're right. That perspective is good to be able to be in a room of people and hear other stories

and be like, wow, that is deep pain. That is something I hadn't thought of. But also to feel like, Sometimes the facts can be different and the feelings be the same, right? And we can still feel a similar, you know, feeling of like my life is over. I'm devastated even if we didn't go through the same challenge. And I think it brings up all the places where we hold biases of like, you might hear that someone's grandma died and be like, really, you know, you're that bereft. But like that grandmother could have been the person that raised them. That grandmother could have been like the one safe. space that they ever knew. Like there's so much assumptions that we can make about what somebody's relationship was or wasn't. And we just, you know, there's no two stories of grief that are the same. It's very true. A lot of the people that listen to this podcast, you know, have complicated family relationships. And something that we talk about a lot here is losing someone, having someone die that you had unresolved conflict with or that you were estranged from. And I'm wondering if

you have any advice for people who maybe are not grieving the loss of a relationship that was necessarily positive. Yeah. We've done a lot of work to remove the language of loss of a loved one from our materials because it kind of, and it's very much like it is the like turn of phrase in the grief world just rolls off your tongue, like loss of a loved one. But actually a lot of people who come to our community are like, I don't actually think I would describe them as a loved one. I think I would describe them as like an abuser or I would describe them as like someone that like I never met because they weren't in my life. And but like I'm still, can I still, am I still? Can I still? Can I still grieve them? And the answer is like not only are you grieving that person's absence, but you're also

grieving the relationship that you never got to have with them. And like, you know, it's like double duty. And you're grieving the loss of the kind of potential. potentiality that someday you might be able to reconcile. So it's like this, it's like a past present future, triple whammy of Greece. And we have tables within the dinner party community that are particularly for complicated relationships because it can be a, you know, it's like it can often be a different melody to the story that's happening there. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's another layer that makes people very uncomfortable when you speak like ill of the dead. You know? Some people really don't like that. They find it quite triggering. And the reality is that, yeah, they're their children and siblings that are losing someone they were related to that was abusive to them. And them speaking that way is not to like taint their name, but to accurately represent, you know, what they experienced.

Yep. Yeah. I think in the first 40 days, oftentimes the narrative is one of deification. of like that what a life you know wanting to kind of celebrate and i you know i think most of us deserve that moment of like you know the slow clap out as we exit and like it has been in my conversations with friends i've made through the dinner party where i'm like but also like i'm not totally resolved about the fact that my parents had a really nasty divorce and like i was finally arriving at the age in my life where i could start to heal some of that when my dad died I'm like, I'll never be able to ask him the questions that I wish I could ask him. And like when I got, when I was getting married myself, like brought up a whole other wave of grief, not related to the fact that he was dead, but also related to the fact that like I had a, you know, the model of marriage that I grew up underneath was like super glitched out and like is not the model that I want to recreate.

But like, again, like not a conversation that I get to have with him. And it was through other people that I met. who, maybe even more so than people in my family, it was people who I met who had parallel experiences or enough of a similar point of reference where they could kind of like lean in with a me too, where I could kind of peel back some of the layers and do the work that I wish I could have done with him, but, you know, in relationship with my therapist or my friends or just get the kind of confidence to like get in there and figure out what I want for my own marital patterns. Right, right. I think that is. so powerful, especially because as you're talking about, like, that slow clap on someone's

way out and celebrating them, I think I have run into a lot of people who are feeling like, wow, everyone is celebrating this person in their passing who was so harmful to me and really hurt me. And I feel like I can't share that stuff right now because now they're gone. And so to be able to find a space where you can safely talk about that without being accused of of, you know, being selfish and slandering someone's name is very difficult. I'm picturing like a calling home and the dinner party roath where people can be like, listen, she was, fill in the blank. Right, right.

It's so hard. The other thing that's coming up for me that I wanted to ask you about that it is something that I really pushed back against in my book as well is like the infusion of spirituality or religion in the wake of grief when someone doesn't want that. How do you deal with that? There's so many like cutesy-patozy hallmark phrases like they're in a better place or they're with God now. And, you know, when I was in the process of sharing my book with publishers, a few of them were like, is this a spiritual book? And I was like, no, it's not. Like it's about matters of the spirit, but I'm not like proselytizing a certain spiritual lens here which to experience. this. And around the dinner party table, it's like people end up talking about spiritual beliefs and religious traditions and things, but it's like very intentionally secular and yet still very sacred in its secularness. So, and you know, there's like some research. It's like, oh, for people who have a faith tradition, the sort of emotional impacts of grief are lessened, which is interesting to know that like, if you're like, well, whatever, they're in heaven, maybe it is like, helps you kind of like short. cut some of the intensity of grief, which is, like, interesting to know. And, yeah, there's, there are some stories in the book about how the faith community that someone was a part of

and really worked for them, suddenly stopped working for them when they were grieving. And the community was like, why are you sad? They are, like, legit in heaven. We don't have room for your, like, your grief is basically, like, in conflict with your faith. Like, pick one. and I'm like that's heartbreaking a and and like a story I hear more often than I would like and so yeah I think sometimes we can we see a lot of like spiritual bypassing happening when someone's like well you know it's in God's hands and we also see faith being like an immense balm so it's so personal and yeah there's a there's a chapter in the book about tending to your sacred and like what are the ways that we can find whatever it is that makes us feel connected

and in awe, as opposed to, like, we are being punished or needing to follow someone else's rules. Totally. And when it's self-implemented and, like, enforced, I think that's great, right? If you find peace in that and that makes you feel better, 100%. What I don't like is when people put it on others, you know, to say, this should help you and this should make you feel better. And I need you to adopt my belief system in the wake of your grief.

even if I don't know that that's what you want or what works for you. I remember we played sort of like worst case scenario once with the dinner party and like what conversations could come up. And one of our hosts mentioned that there was a conversation between someone who had a real belief that if someone hadn't been baptized in the Christian church, they were going to hell. And they're at a table with a bunch of other people whose folks had just died and hadn't been baptized. And, you know, you can imagine, I don't remember, like, the details of how that story ended, but there's a thin line between conversations about grief and conversations about our perspectives of the afterlife. And for the most part, the dinner party is a secular community where, like, all fakes and perspectives are welcome. And yes, people end up talking about cool woo-woo stuff. And they talk about the ways in which, you know, traditionally grief, like the church is where people have gone to tend to grief.

like you call the fire department when there's a fire you call the church when somebody dies and we're living in an era however where like the big tradition participation is declining and there's the sort of the rise of the spiritual not religious and like you know more will be revealed with time i think of like where all those different trends land but it's an important part of it for sure but i think the kind of like they're in a better place or this is all according to god's plan should people should get like you know, it's like a, I would just, I wish we could remove those phrases from our vernacular. Oh, my gosh, please. Just like erase them from your brain because they're rarely effective or helpful. Oh, like, I think brings me, you know, to my last question is like, for anybody listening to this that wants to be a better support person to someone who is grieving, do you have like one or two recommendations or things they can implement?

And there's a story I write about in the book that I love so much because it's so simple. And it's about a friend, two friends of driving to the movies. And one of the friends recently had a dad who had died. And the other friend asked very, like, point blank. So your dad died. How is that going for you? And it gave them, like, it was like a neutral, she didn't need anything. It wasn't like what, like, you know, it was, it just sort of was like matter of fact.

Yeah. And it opened up a window of time where. the person who was craving could be like, huh, how was it going for me now? And they talked about it for the 10 more minutes while they were in the car. And then like they moved on to the movies. And it kind of became this realization that like you can have conversations checking in with friends and you don't have to solve it for them because guess what you can't. You don't have to have like the perfect phrase. It's going to solve their pain because guess what you won't. And like it can be it can be like almost not. It could be a big deal in that it's like, Like, not a big deal. So there was this sort of like normalizing just being open about it. The other thing I think is really important is like we, I have all these death anniversaries on my Google, Google calendar. I want to start a movement of people putting people's death anniversaries on their

Google calendars, but you're like, oh shit, this is the 10th anniversary of the day that Jen dad died. Like, I'm going to send her a text or I'm going to like swing by her house and bring her flowers or like in the in the long tail that is grief there's something so wildly powerful about not just checking in on their grief but like reminding them that you two are holding that person's memory you know they're this saying what I love is that people die twice they die once when they physically leave their bodies and they die the second time when the last person ever says their name I feel like we can all be grief allies by like not letting that second debt happen

for the people in our life. Totally. It makes me think about like how I actually love when people, you know, ask me about things like that or are curious or want to bring up stories of a loved one or a memory. And like I think at the root of what you're saying is like that it's okay to remember and to talk about it and to act like it's a normal piece of someone's life in conversation and that we're not like reminding them or making them upset.

They're already thinking about it. You know, it's already part of their life. So I think that's so powerful. And honestly, I'm so grateful for your work because I feel like it really is doing something to make people less afraid of grief and to make it something that we can like integrate more easily into just into our relationships and into our everyday conversations, which I think is so powerful. so thank you very much for that of course yeah the last thing i would say about like being the grief

ally and this one's hard is don't have any personal expectations or agenda around how they're going to respond you know like sometimes like you will send that text and that person won't won't get back and like we can easily and the navel gazing world that we live and be like what did i do wrong or are they mad at me or i was hoping for kind of like oh my god you're the sweetest most thoughtful person ever. And it feels like showing support and with real non-attachment to like what the outcomes or the return is going to be for you. Yeah, absolutely. And if you're doing it for something like that, it's probably a moment to check it and be like, am I actually trying to be supportive or get some accolades for this? My favorite thing to add to a text message like that is like,

you do not need to respond or get back to me. I just wanted to say this to you. You know. there should be an emoji that signifies like no response needed. I don't know what it is yet, but we'll have to think about it. We need to implement that for sure. Well, thank you so much for coming on this show. I will put links to the dinner party in your book and everything like that in the show notes. And I'm so excited for people to learn more about your work. Thank you again. Thank you, Whitney. Pleasure to be here and hang out with you. And yeah, I'm a big friend of what you're doing. Thank you. The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient,

or other treatment relationship between you and Collingholm or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home's terms of service link in the show notes below. You know,