CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - How to Parent Differently Without Overcorrecting with Dr. Juli Fraga

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

Whitney Goodman interviews psychologist Dr. Julie Fraga about her book "Parents Have Feelings Too." They discuss how parents can process their own emotions, break cycles of guilt and perfectionism, use the Change Triangle to understand their feelings, and teach emotional intelligence to their children—all while navigating the challenge of parenting differently than they were raised. 00:00 The Shift from Fixing Kids to Supporting Parents 04:26 Managing Parental Guilt 09:11 Getting Ahead of Overstimulation as a Parent 15:37 Breaking Intergenerational Patterns Without Overcorrecting 20:24 The Change Triangle 25:10 Why Kids' Emotions Make Parents Uncomfortable 30:18 Finding Joy in Parenting Dr. Juli's Website: https://www.drjulifraga.com/ Order her new book: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/788442/parents-have-feelings-too-by-hilary-jacobs-hendel/ Whitney Goodman is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and the founder of Calling Home, a membership community that helps people navigate complex family dynamics and break harmful cycles. Have a question for Whitney? Call in and leave a voicemail for the show at 866-225-5466 Join the Family Cyclebreakers Club⁠⁠ Follow Whitney on Instagram | sitwithwhit Follow Whitney on YouTube | @whitneygoodmanlmft ⁠⁠Order Whitney’s book, Toxic Positivity⁠⁠ Learn more about ad choices. Visit podcast.choices.com/adchoices This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is for the parents. Your feelings matter too. Today I'm honored to welcome Dr. Julie Fragga to the show. Julie is a psychologist, parent educator, and content creator who helps caregivers turn insight into action so they can shift the way they relate to themselves, their children, and their world. For nearly two decades, she has supported individuals facing postpartum depression and anxiety, maternal and childhood trauma, infertility, and loss, and grief. Her new book, Parents Have Feelings, too, co-authored with Hillary Jacobs-Hendel, is a deeply practical guide to identifying, naming, and working with emotions, and to teaching emotional intelligence to the next generation.

Today's conversation will move beyond theory and into practice. We'll explore real-life strategies for parents to process their own feelings, break cycles of guilt and cultivate emotional resilience in their children. Whether you're a parent of a newborn, a teenager, or an adult, this one's for you. Let's welcome Julie to the Calling Home podcast. You know, I have to say, I think something that your book taps into really well and it's one of the greatest things I think we've done with parenting lately is sort of moving the focus away from controlling or changing children and focusing on the parent and helping the parent feel more equipped and emotionally stabilized.

And I'm curious sort of what led you to make that pivot, you know, to focus more on the parent. Yeah, that's such a great question. In my work as a psychologist for my kind of the majority of my career, I primarily work with parents. but I think it was really, you know, so I have a lot of experience, but it was really my own experience in becoming a mom, my daughter, 17. And one of the first things I did when I found out I was pregnant was to find a therapist. I had a therapist previously, you know, when I was doing my internship and my postdoc, but that was really to kind of navigate just the challenges

of finishing grad school, not to explore what it means to become a mother. And I'll be honest, what it means to become a mother when you do not have a sturdy relationship with your own mother. I grew up with a mom who is not really equipped to validate and see my emotions. And I just imagined that that experience and that wound could, if I didn't explore it, kind of pop up and affect the way I raised my daughter. And so I figured that kind of good enough mothering starts with taking care of your own emotions and kind of taking a deep dive inside. And so it's something I've been passionate about for many years before the book came to be. Yeah. I, you know, I love that because I think I've talked about this on the show

before I have two children and I'm pregnant with my third and when I had my first child. Congratulations. Thank you. I had this belief really ingrained in me. I think that mothering was supposed to come so naturally to me. And that admitting any type of struggle in that arena kind of made me less of a mother. And so I think it's so important for people to hear that like it's okay to get help with that role and to seek out therapy and resources to help you with that. Absolutely. I think there's so much shame and there's so much stigma. And I think for those of us who didn't grow up with parents, caregivers or moms that we could rely on and then turn to during motherhood ourselves, it can bring up a lot of icky feelings during pregnancy. And after you become a mom, everybody asks, do you notice everybody asks about your mom or your parents? Are your parents coming to help you once the baby arrives? What does your mom think about this? you know, there's a lot of chatter kind of in that corner. And I think it can bring up a lot of like feelings of aloneness, right, that we live with in surviving like these types of relational

traumas. And so to know it's okay to have help and to have guidance. It's even more important. Yeah. Yeah. And that that's actually, I think, the marker of a strong, good parent, right? Absolutely. Yeah. That isn't. and I feel like that's something that is really being flipped on its head today that I think is so valuable, especially for the people that listen to this show. Yeah. So, you know, I want to start talking about emotions and how parents handle their emotions. I think that's such a, obviously, the core of your book.

I find that today, you know, a lot of parents feel this pressure to appear calm. men in control all the time. And that's when they snap. And you tell a lot of great anecdotes in the book about that. And so I'm wondering how parents can start to acknowledge their own emotional reality and where they should start with that. That's a great question. I think the place to start with our emotions is really to check in with the body. Like I think we receive a lot of information in our society that you can outsmart your emotion, that an emotion starts in your head because maybe we think, oh, I feel angry right now. But emotions in terms of being able to regulate them, they really start in the body. And so really getting to know your body and the sensations that kind of travel with

certain emotions, you know, anxiety that equals like an upset stomach, anger that equals like tightness in our jaw or like this impulse to want to like scream really loud, sadness that's heaviness in our heart. I think that's a great starting point. Yeah, the tapping into the body is so important. I mean, I know that's a skill that I didn't learn until I was in graduate school, you know? And then even then it was like, wow, my my head is so disconnected from my body. And I think parenthood is so inherently overstimulating. Like I'm in the thick of the screaming years, you know. I love that you called it that. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's, you know, there's just a lot of, a lot of noise in my house. And that was something that I wasn't really prepared

for how that was going to affect my body. And so I'm wondering if you can speak to parents, you know, like me, who are constantly being overstimulated in their own homes and how we can notice when that's happening. Like noticing what it feels like. My guess is that it starts to build. I'm also somebody that's, like, sensitive to noise. And it's like sometimes we kind of have this thing we're doing, I think, unknowingly and let me know if you can write. We're kind of grinning and bearing it. We're like, oh, the noise, you know, and then we're kind of pushing forward and doing what

we need to with our kids, which, of course, we want to do, but we're not as tended kind of to ourselves, you know, and even when we're getting that kind of physical activation from the noise, that we can do little things to just kind of help ground and regulate, even if it's taking a few breaths, if it's safe, stepping out of the room just for even, you know, a minute or two. If you can still hear your kids popping, I have moms do this all the time, popping in some like headphones, you know, that are entirely noise canceling. Yeah, that really helps. And I think, you know, hearing you say that is helpful because I find that some people feel like if I have to do these things, there's something wrong with me. But you're, you're not really supposed to be bombarded by

that much like noise and touch and smells and like all this all at one time. Yeah. Stimulation overload. Yeah. A lot. And I feel like, you know, I always knew I was a little bit sensitive to that before having kids, but then I really was like, whoa, this is a lot for me that I have to get ahead of it. Like I have to start my days. I love that. Two and a half hours of like I had to meditate and exercise. Then I know I'll be prepared. you know, going into it, I think. And I don't know if you have any suggestions like that for people who maybe want to try to get ahead of it rather than handle it in the moment. I love what you said

because you're really talking about one noticing your need and then making time to take care of yourself. And I think that's something that all of us needs. And yet parents tend to feel so guilty about it. You know, it's like, oh, I'm doing something wrong. Oh, I'm shortchanging my child. And really to get a step ahead of it, it's really to identify what we need emotionally, I think, you know, in order to be kind of in that place, just as, you know, you might fuel up before you run a marathon, doing the same thing kind of to meet the day with your child or children. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, the feeling of guilt is something that I wanted to ask you about because I think a lot of parents today struggle with that, like, endless guilt. not doing enough for the way that they handled things, you know, how do you think that parents can manage that really difficult feeling? I think there's just a lot of mis-not maybe misinformation and misunderstanding, I would say, around the emotion of guilt. One, I think that guilt kind of gets touted in our society when it comes to parenthood, that if you feel guilty, it means you're a good parent, like, you know, welcome the guilt and that we don't receive enough information really about the emotion of guilt and its purpose and also when it's not serving us in the

in a positive way. So guilt, as we talk about in the book, is really kind of what we call an inhibitory emotion. And I use that word because inhibitory emotions inhibit our more core emotions like sadness, fear, disgust. And those are the emotions. Our core emotions are really the emotions that kind of give us information to take action in ways that serve ourselves well, right? Like if my kid darts into the street, I'm going to run after them. I'm not going to think about it. It happens kind of without knowing, right? guilt oftentimes you know it's an emotion that helps it's kind of also a self-conscious emotion it keeps us from doing something that's wrong but so often parents think they're doing everything wrong when they're doing nothing wrong and so if you want to let's say take an exercise class which means leaving your child at aftercare for an extra 45 minutes you know or reading one story instead of two stories because you've had a long day yeah and to really kind of explore that And that I think the avenue really through guilt is kind of flexing that muscle and building our own guilt tolerance, which means identifying the emotion, naming it, working through it. And then getting a little bit curious. Is there another emotion here? Am I sad about something? Am I angry?

Yeah. You know, it's so interesting that you say that about mothers feeling guilty when they don't feel guilt. I think I can really relate to that. that I there were things throughout like my early motherhood journey that I was like oh I don't really feel that bad about maybe taking a trip with my husband over the weekend because I know that my kids are safe with their grandparents and they're taking care of but there were and then I would start to be like am I supposed to feel guilty about that but I have found that the more as a mother I live in an alignment with my values and I do what's important. to me, the less guilt I feel. And I don't know if that's something that you've noticed as well with moms. Absolutely. And I love what you're saying. The more that you live in alignment with

your values, the less guilt to your feel. Because when we live in alignment with our values, we're living in alignment with our authentic self. And when we're honoring our authentic self, we're in a place usually of regulation and calm. And so, of course, that's going to, that guilt isn't going to be kind of center stage. Yeah. And so I think that's such an important kind of framework and way to describe it. I love that, you know, you're sharing that. I think it's so powerful and empowering.

Yeah. Yeah. I think for anyone listening, you know, to me, what that really looks like in action is thinking about not only what is important to me, but also what am I good at and what you like sell in as a mother because there's certain things that like, one, they're not that important to me in my motherhood journey with my specific child. I don't know that they matter that much. And there's just things that like I'm not good at. And so I probably shouldn't feel guilt about outsourcing that or maybe having someone else help me with it. And I think if you can

kind of create a system for yourself to filter things like that, it does help like in the day to day. Absolutely. And that, you know, if there are things that were not good at and we outsourced that, well, how wonderful. If you were running your own company and you knew you weren't good at, let's say, being a, you know, finance, you would get a CFO, you know, or you weren't like stellar at operations. You would get a C.O. I can so relate to that. Like, I'm a terrible cook, you know, and sometimes I'll have these, like, tinges of guilt. My daughter's 17. I'm like, oh, that's my biggest shame point as like a mom. And I'm like, well, I'm not good at cooking. And so like, so be it, you know. I'm not going to put pressure on myself to become, you know, stellar at something. I was just not like in my wheelhouse. Same with like when she was little, like building Legos. I have terrible spatial skills. I'm not going to like spend hours like building Legos. I'm like it's not going to look anything like, you know, the castle on the box when I'm done.

Yeah. No, no, it's so true. And I think like allowing your children to have a village of people that they learn from and they get things from because I can't give them everything that they need. Right. Right. Exactly. And what a great message, too. It's like to have different people in our lives that meet different needs that we have. And it shows them that they can turn to other caring adults who are in their corner. It's a way to really build a village in a really connected, I think, way in a really intimate way. And that takes just as you're saying, knowing our values so that we can kind of take charge in that way to help our kids find those people because we know how to find those people. Yeah, absolutely. Those reframes, I think, have been so helpful. And so if anyone wants to try kind of like implementing that categorization system in their life and also maybe reframing

when there are certain things they're not good at or they can't do, I find that that can be very helpful. A lot of the people that listen to this show are working on breaking intergenerational cycles and patterns. And I think what happens a lot of the time is people, unintentionally are passing down these emotional patterns that they grew up with. And so I'm wondering if you can help us kind of identify what might be the first step for someone that wants to parent differently, emotionally, than the way that they were raised. I think the first step is maybe just tapping into kind of the awareness of what do you want to do differently and why, you know? And what is that?

look like and there's a question that we pose in the book really early on what is something you didn't receive from your childhood that you wanted and how does that what was that like for you you know also how might that affect the way that you raise your kid and I think that can just be an illuminating question even for people I think there are a lot of people actually that have experienced relational trauma but they don't know that that's what it is yeah and so they have no idea that they've been through that. But, you know, when answering that question, they might be like, wow, I never want to yell like my parents did, you know, shame my child. And it's like, wow, they're kind of there, there it is. You know, there's the beginning of something. Yeah, totally.

Identifying your why, what do you really want to do differently. I think sometimes people when they're caught up in this, they are just like, I don't want to be like my parents at all. And so, So the pendulum will swing to the complete opposite side, right? And if you grew up with parents that were extremely strict, would never let you do anything, sometimes these parents can become boundaryless. They allow everything. They're not protecting their kids. And so I think getting at that like actual why and what is your unique child need from you, not just being the opposite of your parents, is so important. I don't know if you see some of that like pendulum swing with parents sometimes. Absolutely. It's like I think the other thing is when we weren't raised by kind of

good enough parents, we want to replicate kind of the way that we were parented. We go with the opposite direction. It's like we're, there's a great book from years ago by this journalist Catherine Black called mothering without a map. And I just loved that term. It's like we're parenting without a map. And so it's trying to drive a car in reverse because, but we don't know how to drive the car forward because we don't have those tools. And so really, I think in those cases when we just want to do the opposite, well, what emotion is behind that? You know, it might be just some deep sadness. I never want my kid to feel the way that I felt. And so, wow, what is the emotion behind this impulse? Wow, it's sadness. So there's something there to mourn. Maybe when I work through that emotion,

I'll realize that it doesn't have to be completely the opposite. You know, it's so hard when we don't have parents that we can rely on in you know kind of emotionally and parents who see us it's really hard as a parent to remember when we see our kid that they don't have our childhood it's like we're so worried about like I don't want to yeah I don't want to pass this on to them I don't want to pass this on to them and what I'll share with patients so often is like you know your child does not have your childhood they have you yeah yeah they weren't there they don't know they don't to be fixed or redone. And so, you know, I think then we get into dangerous territory, right, of like, I'm living, reliving my childhood that I want through my child. Yeah. And maybe giving them

the things that you felt like you lacked without considering their actual needs, which I think is where your work becomes so important of like, how can the parents separate what they're looking for from what their child needs from that. Exactly. And I think it can show up in so many kind of different ways. You know, a parent who maybe grew up with really strict parents who were maybe even really strict about money and maybe like their birthdays and, you know, holiday times, maybe gifts were like subpar. And then, you know, they want to shower their child with these gifts, even though maybe that's not the best thing necessarily for their child. Maybe their child will have that experience, you know, even if they don't kind of swing exactly in the complete opposite way, you know.

So true. I want to talk about the change triangle, which I know is very important in your work. Can you talk about how parents can utilize that to help themselves and help themselves as parents? So the change triangle was in my co-author Hillary Jacob Tendell in her first book. And think of it really as kind of like a map of the mind. or like a compass to kind of guide you through where you're at and your emotions and what you should do next. So in the book, like when people look at the triangle, there are three corners, of course, and on the top two corners, we have inhibitory emotions and then defenses. So these are,

when we're in either of these corners, we know that we kind of need to do something to become kind of more calm and regulated because where we want to get to is where we can identify those core emotions. And so it's really getting familiar, of course, starting with the body. How does the emotion show up in the body? Also defenses, which I want to talk about, that's anything we do to avoid an emotion that seems unbearable to us. And I think what happens sometimes is people, especially when we've been through a lot of trauma, we might actually be living on the defense corner of the triangle and think that things are going quite well because we're not feeling anything. Yeah. And so if it's not uncomfortable, it's not painful, I'm okay. You know, but sometimes these are just brilliant defenses and there's no shame in that. We're doing what we need to do to survive and we're bringing these things with us from childhood that really protected us. You know, but those might be things like avoidance, criticizing ourselves. I see this so often with parents judging ourselves, sometimes judging other people. Perfectionism. You know, perfectionism and overdrive. I mean, I know perfectionism. You know, it was also like a personality trait. And so really getting to know where you're at on the triangle and then what you can do next to get to that core emotion where you can name, validate it, work through it. And as you, you know, talked about get to the place where you're in alignment with your authentic self and your values. So you can take action in a way that's really adaptive and wonderful for you and your family. And as we kind of say in the book,

And also the change triangle comes also from a type of therapy that Hillary and I both practice called AEDP. We really want to get to a place where we're feeling and dealing, you know, in optimal ways. Yeah, the part you just brought up about being so disconnected and like not feeling anything, sort of being in a state, I think of being emotionally shut down or numbed. I think is something that my audience can so relate to when they're thinking about maybe their own parents. and their own parents being shocked that maybe the relationship doesn't feel close to them. And it makes me think about, you know, you talk about attachment and attachment styles in your book. And I'm wondering, like, is that a piece that you think is missing for some of these parents who feel like maybe the relationship is good, but it's because they're just not feeling anything. Yeah, absolutely.

Maybe they're not feeling anything because it's too painful to feel. something and I think sometimes was you know a wonderful protective defense against you know emotions that are unbearable sadness shame anxiety the whole mix is also denial maybe we had to deny what was going on in our childhood in order to survive childhood a child needs their parents and their caregivers it's very hard to you know um see that they're kind of maybe hurting us in certain ways And so we learn to kind of deny that or to numb ourselves, you know, or maybe to even, you know, dissociate just to kind of detach, in other words, for the sake of our emotional survival. Absolutely. I think, you know, also as parents, like, I don't know if you've felt this as well, but your kids will make you feel things, like just merely through their presence that are uncomfortable. Like there's sort of this constant feeling of being exposed emotionally a little bit when you're a parent.

Absolutely. And if there's ever somebody that we can look at who is definitely right in their body where we can see emotions coming up in the body and they'd express them unfiltered because there's nothing getting in the way. It's babies and children. They'll let you know. They'll let you know. They don't have those, you know, a baby or a really tiny child. They don't have those defenses. so it's they're letting they're doing their thing and it can make us feel I think oftentimes pretty out of control especially when they express an emotion that we might not be comfortable with that maybe we don't even know we're not comfortable with it you know like anger for instance or sadness yeah yeah it's making you know I think seeing those emotions in our kids makes me think about sort of society's long dedication to fix it. children and making them not be how they are. And I think a lot of that has to do with what

you're talking about, about how we want to extinguish certain feelings and emotions because we weren't allowed to have them. They make us feel uncomfortable, whatever it is. And I'm wondering, you know, how does like shifting the focus back to parents' inner work rather than on fixing children create healthier families in the long run? I think it creates healthier families because it all starts with us. And when we have to be in a place where we can kind of have a good enough, let's say, relationship with our own emotions so that we can model that for our children. And when we know exactly where we're at, we can take steps.

You know, we're not going to be perfect. And it's like we're playing the long game here. But we can take steps to kind of tend to our own emotions. so that we can meet our child's emotions and we're less likely to do that maybe with a defense that might come out, maybe avoiding something hard they want to talk about when they're older because it makes us feel uncomfortable, you know, or unknowingly maybe judging them because maybe we were really judged by our parents. And we thought that was really motivating. We don't have any connection to what didn't feel good. You know, I think it's tapping into also what like Dan Siegel

called like the felt experience. When we know something and it's in our awareness that it didn't feel good to us, we're less apt to repeat it. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And so many people are so avoidant of having those experiences, right? For so many reasons. I think one of the biggest things I hear, you know, from my community at calling home is like it feels like I'm rejecting my parents or my culture. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Abandoning them. If I decide to parent differently or show up differently, and that can feel monumental. I think in high control, you know, religions or communities with a lot of authoritarianism, it can really feel like almost life-threatening to people.

Absolutely, like such a betrayal, you know. And I applaud people that are able to do that because it's very hard. Absolutely. It's so complicated. It's not just kind of so, you know, cut and dry. you know sometimes society might kind of send us a message you know if something doesn't feel good well just like you know walk away or change something it's all in your control yeah i think for people who feel that way it's like you've never felt the risk of trying to leave you know absolutely

family like that yeah and to leave and kind of contend with the loss of leaving you know and the emotions that come up if you leave totally and the aloneness i think the other thing that makes it so part is then the aloneness is so unbearable that, you know, there's also that kind of huge piece that I don't think, you know, at least gets maybe talked about as much or understood in general society. Yeah. It's extremely isolating. And I think there's a constant, you know, in highly dysfunctional families, like a person that's doing, quote, unquote, better, sometimes they can get treated very poorly. Like, you think you're better than us. You think you're special like they're weird you know there's there's a lot of criticism sometimes when you

decide to better yourself in a family that's struggling with addiction you know mental health issues any of those things that I feel like I want to do something different and it's tough absolutely I mean I think that it throws off kind of this equilibrium in the family and so the person that kind of if you think of it like as a boat, you know, and the person who wants to do something differently stands up in the middle of the boat and the boat starts to tip, people don't like that very much. And so they're going to try to find a way to get the boat kind of to not tip. And so they're going to point at the person who's tipping the boat and, you know, maybe judge them, pathologize them, you know, shame them, all of the things that can feel so terrible.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Something I wanted to ask you about was, you know, I think lately people are talking a lot more about the challenges of parenting, right? And I love that. I think it's wonderful because I think so many, you know, women in generations past weren't even allowed to speak about that or even mention it. But I do feel like now I notice people even my age a little bit younger than me are very afraid of parenting, thinking that it's going to be like so hard and such a chore and it is. But it's also really to me, I think one of the most wonderful and fulfilling things I've ever done. And so I'm wondering if you have any advice or insight into like how we can make parenting more, more joyful or more enjoyable for us as parents. I think it's just tapping into when we have those really expansive positive of emotions like joy, excitement, or we see them in our kids, you know, we're kind of even pride in ourselves, like, wow, I did, I'm doing a great job, you know, and to just be able to

savor that. There's like a research study that I came across, I don't know, a couple years ago, but it was on something and the researchers called it relational savoring. And it was really kind of taking that moment of joy that you notice, you know, maybe with yourself, with your child, though, they're really talking about parents and children and really kind of letting your yourself kind of savor it, kind of staying there. And the research of how that improved kind of relationships with the parent and child, but I also think that noticing and kind of savoring that emotion, you know, helps helps us notice those moments and those emotions even more instead of only kind of looking at the things that aren't going right or the things that don't feel

particularly good. Yeah. It's so true. You know, parenting is such a, such a contradiction that like Right now, my four-year-old is waking up very early and, like, coming into my room and he just wants to be there with me. And I have to constantly go through this thing of, like, yes, this is hard. And, like, I wanted to stop. But also, when he doesn't want to do this anymore, I'm probably going to cry, you know, being upset that he just wants to be in his own room and, like, not hang out with me. And so finding a way, like you're saying, I think to acknowledge the feeling of like, oh, this is kind of annoying or difficult with also like, but how wonderful is it that he wants to be close to me and wants to spend time with me and how can I have space for both at the same time?

Exactly. How can I hold both things? How can they both exist? And I think our society isn't very good at that. It sends messages to us that kind of black and white, you know, it's good or it's bad. it is or it isn't, but that both things can coexist. Absolutely. Well, Julie, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show and for talking about your book. Parents have feelings too. Well, thank you so much, Whitney. It was so wonderful to meet you. This was such a wonderful conversation. I so enjoyed talking with you and also hearing about your experience and reflections as a mom. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Calling Home. I want to thank Dr. Julie Fraggo for such a thoughtful and compassionate conversation.

And I hope you're leaving with some new insights about how tending to your own emotions as a parent can ripple out into every relationship in your family. If you enjoyed today's episode, I'd love for you to take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and share it with someone who might find it helpful. Reviews and shares really help us reach more people who are navigating complicated family dynamics. And as always, thank you so much for listening and being a part of this community. I hope to see you inside a group at Calling Home soon, and I'll see you next time. The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health

advice, or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship between you and Colling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home's terms of service linked in the show notes below.