CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Parent and Adult Child Relationships with Minaa B

Episode Date: February 20, 2024

This week on Calling Home, Whitney Goodman will speak with author, speaker, therapist, and mental health educator Minaa B. They’ll discuss the complexities of parent-child relationships, particularly when the child becomes an adult. They highlight the importance of parents seeing their children as autonomous individuals, and the need for both parties to understand and respect each other's perspectives. Plus, Whitney and Minaa touch on the societal and systemic influences that can shape these relationships, and the importance of empathy, compassion, and acceptance in navigating these dynamics.  Learn more about Minaa B. and get her book “Owning Our Struggles: A Path to Healing and Finding Community in a Broken World” at MinnaB.com  Join Whitney’s Family Cycle Breakers Club for further support and discussion on family dynamics at CallingHome.co. Follow the Calling Home community on Instagram or TikTok.  Follow Whitney Goodman on Instagram or TikTok.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Mina B, the author of the book Owning Our Struggles, and the host of the Mindful with Mina podcast. She's here to talk with me about healing parent and adult child relationships. I'm Whitney Goodman. Welcome to the Calling Home podcast. I'm glad you're here. One of the most crucial parts of fixing and rebuilding any relationship is realizing your own mistakes. If an adult child comes to a parent and says, this is where you went wrong in raising me, the parent has to be able to see and listen to the child as an autonomous adult. And this can be a lot harder than many parents think, but it does go both ways. The adult child has to be able to see and accept their parents as the imperfect human beings that they are

in order to make the relationship work. I appreciate Mina being here because she really goes into the things that can factor into how we parent our children, how we must treat them as adults, and what it takes for these relationships to heal. I'd love to know why you think so many people have trouble accepting who their parents are. I would say from the conversations that I've had with clients and even conversations that I've had with peers, I think because a parent is supposed to be the person who provides you with your basic needs. They are the person who puts shelter over you, feeds you, clothes you. you, they are supposed to be this all-sacrificing human being who pretty much is supposed to be

able to meet all of your needs. And keyword is supposed to. I think a lot of people feel that when you choose to become a parent, you're supposed to know how to pour into every single aspect of your child. Now, there are certain things that if you make a choice to become a parent, you are supposed to be able to say that I can clothe my child, I can feed my child, I can help meet my child's basic needs. So that is true. But I think that a lot of people wrestle mainly with the emotional part. And that is because there really is no manual regarding how to raise a child. And I'm not talking about classic textbooks related to early childhood development and helping a child meet their milestones. I am talking about the nuances of life. How do you raise a child in a pandemic? How do you raise a

child in a world where there is racial trauma? How do you raise a child in a capitalistic society? Early childhood development textbooks aren't going to tell you that. And so I think a lot of people struggle with being able to just see their parents as humans first. who have to navigate the complexities of society the same way we, the child, has to learn on our own to navigate the complexities of society. And I think that is what really gets in a way of people being able to see the fullness of who their parent is. That's such a good way of looking at it. And I think I find that if I say anything to the tune of like parents or people, or your parents are human, adult children who are struggling with their parents get very,

I hate to use the word triggered, but like upset by that statement, right? It can feel invalidating in a way of like, oh, you're saying because they're human, I should accept what they do. And then on the other side of the coin, you have a lot of parents, I think, who are having difficulty with their adult children who are saying, I'm human. Can you, you know, allow me to make mistakes. And I'm wondering if you see that divide as well and what you think might be contributing to that. Oh, I absolutely see it. I see when it happens to you. I see when it happens to you on social media. I'm glad for a witness. I have witnessed it. I have also experienced it. The moment you try to humanize a parent, the child who is deeply triggered and deeply wounded,

really struggles to be able to accept that and to see your perspective. I'll speak from that lens first. I think a lot of it just has to do again with the power hierarchy where you are my parent and there's no such thing as you making mistakes regarding parenting. You're supposed to know how to love me. You're supposed to know how to meet every single need. And I think that one of the things that we have to learn to do is recognize the duality of our emotions where we can say, I understand that you are a person who makes mistakes,

but I also want you to understand that your mistakes have caused me a lot of harm. And so I want to investigate and know what was your childhood like? What were the things that happened to you? How was your upbringing? I find that the more we learn about our parents and their history, the more we can have some semblance of compassion for them. But sometimes I have to flip the script on the child who was wounded because the same way your parent is asking for grace because of their mistake, you are in a partnership right now

where you are asking your partner for forgiveness, where you are asking your friends to see you as human. You're showing up to work in these social spaces asking for the same semblance of grace and compassion that your parent is asking of you. And no, the relationship is not the same. I get it. But at the root of repairing ruptors is a sense of understanding, a sense of accountability, and how can I see, again, the fullness of who you are and not categorize you in black and white and only focus on the bad. Because we as people, we don't like when people categorize us as just bad. We mess up. And when I mess up,

It's really difficult when somebody can only see me for my mistake. And that is what a lot of parents are feeling. But I want to flip that to your other question because it's the same thing where parents also have to recognize, yes, you did your best. And sometimes your best will cause harm. And I think what's different for parents, however, that's a little different from children is that there is a lot of shame in society already that exists around parents. around parenting, especially for women. And so you're already dealing with the shame of what does it mean to be a good mother,

what does it mean to be a good parent? And when your child comes to you and says, just to let you know there is some things that you did wrong, that is another layer of shame. Because society is already telling me, as the mother in this relationship, what I'm supposed to be doing, how I'm supposed to care for my child.

And then when my child comes to me, it brings up another level of shame. So I think to me, when I hear parents struggling to hear the needs of their child, there are other wounds at play that the child is triggering in them that they really need to unpack and sit with. Because the same way, I am speaking and saying that children do need to have compassion for their parents and the things that they've went through, parents also need to have compassion for their children and recognize they were on the receiving end. They were on the receiving end.

And so what does it look like for you all to come together to repair these ruptures and take ownership? Yeah. I want to hone in on something really important that I think you just said, which is like if we're going to see parents as human, they have to be willing to show their humanity, right? And being human means making.

means making mistakes, being accountable owning up for them. And that's a point of struggle that I really see that it's hard for anybody to see you as human when you deny the mistake, when you say it didn't happen, when you make excuses for it. I think this becomes like a really big roadblock to getting to that understanding peace. Because if a parent said, you know what, you're right, I did snap and yell at you a lot when you were a kid and I remember being under a lot of stress during that time, not as an excuse, but as a way to be like, can we talk about what we were going through as a family during that time and why I was in survival mode and why I was so short-fused that that admission of like, I'm a human and the things were going on then that made it difficult

for me to show up as like this top-tier parent, we're happening. And I think when we can do that, it makes it so much easier to forgive, right? Yeah, I agree with you. It creates a psychologically safe relationship. That is what all of this comes down to. Can I be heard when I am expressing to you the way that you hurt me? Are you able to take accountability and even though recognize your intention was something else, you recognize the impact. You recognize how it landed. And now you're doing the

work to figure out how to repair this so that we can move forward in relationship. That is what parent-child healing is all about. And as a parent, it's really important to be able to, again, dig deeper to recognize those wounds and see that in the midst of you trying to give and do your best and navigate a world where you are raising a child, there are going to be things that you do that harms your child. And your child also is a human being. The same way I want children to humanize your parents, parents also have to humanize their kids. Because I do think too, sometimes parents, again, going back to the power hierarchy, you're a child and you're always going to be a child. And here you have this 30-something, 40-something, you have this adult in front of you now

who's expressing to you, who's able to use their words. And maybe when they were a kid, you didn't let them use their words. There were rules in place that they had to abide by that now, as an adult, they are more outspoken and some of the tactics that some parents may have used, for example, spankings. But I'm an adult now. So are you going to spank me if I speak up, right? So I've stripped you of your power to some extent. and I think a lot of adult parents don't know what to do when they're stripped of their power because now this is person to person versus adult to child.

Your child is an adult now and you have to allow them to have agency and autonomy over themselves and having agency and autonomy is speaking up and it's being assertive and it's expressing their needs and saying this is how you did me wrong and being able to see that when your child comes to you and expresses that, that is a bid for a relationship. That is not their way of trying to say, you are so terrible, I want to dump all of these things on you and run away. What they're trying to say is I actually do want to have a peaceful Thanksgiving dinner. But in order to do that, I am tired of sweeping things under the rug. So we have to address this if you want to have family dinner every Saturday. If you want to have a relationship with your grandchildren, if you want to be invited to

the wedding. These are things that we have to discuss and we have to discuss it because guess what, I'm not five anymore. And I think a lot of parents struggle with that and they struggle with it because that is also how they were raised. And they probably never found the power within themselves to talk to their parents about the harm that they cause them. And so a lot of this is intergenerational. The same way there is intergenerational trauma. A lack of intergenerational healing will keep a lot of parents stuck. Absolutely. And I think a lot of parents, especially because this is a generational thing where we're seeing millennials, Gen Z, younger people, you know, really being excited, I think, about this, these emotional growth tools and this desire to end

patterns and they're kind of like spearheading that, right? And I think some of these older generations are feeling like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not how we do things. You know, I maybe felt like this in my relationship with my mother or with my mother-in-law, but we don't speak up. I never spoke up. And so it can be very destabilizing to the family, even if it is a good thing, that I think this also comes back to that period of, like, grace and waiting of, like, if I'm going to make these big changes, can I give this person a little bit of time to, like, come around?

you know, to this change and to understand what I am trying to say to them. And that can be really difficult. It can be really, really difficult. And I think that difficulty is the roadblock that a lot of parents have to sit with and say, it's my responsibility, however, to shift this roadblock. It's not my child's responsibility. This is my stuff that I'm carrying. and it's interfering with me having a relationship with my kid.

It's also a way of us really breaking those intergenerational cycles of pain and trauma and believing that sweeping things under the rugs or having secrets is a form of normalcy. No, we've normalized a lot of dysfunction for centuries when it comes to family building. And now we have a generation of people who are being given tools to help them speak, up to help them reclaim their power. And I think, again, it goes back to parents having to see what their adult children at this is person to person. It's not parent to five-year-old anymore, 10-year-old anymore, you know, and what does it look like to honor your child as an adult? You know, I also think a lot of it comes with the unrealistic expectations some

parents have when they enter parenthood. You know, I think that a lot of times parents, parents, believe that their child is always going to just be a child. And so they're really taken aback when their child has a voice because they entered parenthood with this desire to give birth or have this child who will love them or maybe fill a void or they wanted this thing so deeply. And then when they see their child gaining autonomy, and sometimes this happens from young, You know, I've heard stories and I've worked with parents who are like, when my child started not meeting me, when they started walking, when they started talking, when they started doing these little things from the time that they were small, I was so taken aback by it. And sometimes they don't realize now your child is 18 and that child is going to continue to grow and grow and grow and be more autonomous. That is what a big bulk of parenthood is.

teaching your child to be an autonomous person to move through the world, not a person who is fully dependent on their parent for the rest of their life. And I think a lot of parents do struggle with that separation now because it's like, well, you don't need me. And not only do you not need me 100% of the time, you have complaints? You have complaint. We're not taking complaints here. Right? It's bad enough I had to deal with you saying, no, when you were a toddler and not wanting to eat your dinner. But now you're upset and you don't want me to come to your house. You've been like keeping notes on my performance. Right. Exactly. I have been dealing with this since you were five and you're 18 now and you still have things. I can't believe it. This is not the part of parenthood I signed up for. And I think. a lot of that is at play, though, where when you make a choice to be a parent, you've got to remember your kid is not going to be five forever. They're not going to be an infant who is helpless forever. They are going to need to be molded into an adult who has agency and autonomy and self-efficacy. And in order to move through the world in a healthy way as an individual who practices interdependency, there is going to be a big part where they detach to you. from you. Not all the way because that love is still going to be there and the need for support is still going to be there, but there's going to be a greater level of autonomy. And sometimes

your kid is going to do things like pick up and move to a whole different state. Your child is going to potentially get into a marriage where they're putting their nuclear family first, right? So there's going to be different things at play where you have to recognize your role as a parent is always shifting. You are not always going to have the same power you had when your child was an infant compared to when your child turns 18. Wendy's most important deal of the day has a fresh lineup. Pick any two breakfast items for $4. New four-piece French toast sticks, bacon or sausage wrap, biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee, and more. Limited time only at participating Wendy's taxes extra. It's such a good reminder. And that really is part of the reason why I started this

podcast and started calling home is that we spend most of our lives knowing our parents as adults. You know, for those of us that are lucky to know our parents until, you know, they're older, that is the bulk of our relationship, yet there's so much focus on children when they're young and your relationship when they're young that I do find that many parents and adult children are largely unequipped to manage these types of relationships because there was no emphasis put on the importance of that. And going back to your point about your child becoming this independent autonomous adult, I think that's a big struggle within these relationships because there was a big belief that ruled for a long time, right, and still does in some circles,

that you were to mold your child into the person that you wanted them to be. The religion, the sexual orientation, the job they would have. All of these things were kind of things that a parent could bring out in their child. And we, of course, now know that that's not true. We're not sculptors. We're more like shepherds is that.

I think that's the saying that someone said a while ago. And I think parents struggle a lot with that. I've heard them, you know, I've seen this in my comments of like, well, I didn't get the adult child I wanted. And there's a level of acceptance there, which, you know, is a funny thing to say because it's a false equivalence to an adult child saying I didn't get the parent I deserved or I wanted. But I would love to hear how you approach that with parents and what advice you might give a parent who is having trouble accepting that their adult child. is very different from what they expected or maybe even hoped for.

You know, I think it really requires unpacking belief systems while also really tapping into an understanding of empathy and compassion in relationship. You know, because I think what you're talking to is so important where there are certain belief systems at play that parents believe that they can drill into their child and the moment their child starts to navigate a different world or universe where they're starting

to show that they're developing their own belief systems or values that starts to become a big trigger for the parent because it's like I didn't raise you this way this is not how you're supposed to be and a big part of deciding to become a parent is recognizing

that you're bringing a child into this world who is a human being who has a right to their own choice and value system. So what does it look like to be in relationship with your own child who may think differently from you, who may want different things out of life that you do? Sometimes even parents will try to live vicariously through their children. So the ways they failed in life or they perceive as a failure or the things that they wanted that they never got, they will now projected onto their child in hopes that their child will follow their passion. And I have seen so

many ruptures where children have had to become estranged from their parents or the parent chose to become estranged from the child because it's like how dare you not take over the family business this is what you're supposed to want to do how dare you not decide to play the sport that I wanted you to play and that causes such a severe rupture that the parent doesn't even want to talk to the kid anymore you know so sometimes estrangement is not the child choosing estrangement. Sometimes the parent who is refusing to bend and refusing to be open-minded is the person who is stepping away from their child, even when it comes to sexual orientation. You know, if I grow up in a religious community and I only believe in heterosexual relationships, I've seen so many

parents disown their kids, right, if they are part of the LGBTQ community. So there's so many scenarios that I think it's so important for people to realize there are parents who choose to estrange themselves from their children, even though a lot of parents are hearing the things people talk about on social media and they're assuming all these children, they're ungrateful, they're this, and they're terminating their relationship with their families, it's not like that all the time. You know, so it really requires a lot of understanding of the needs of your child, but also how much do you want to understand about your child? Right? Because we know that we can't teach people empathy and compassion. That is something

that is learned along the way. So I can't drill it into you. So how much do you want to be in relationship with your kid? How important is it that you be in relationship with your kid? How does loving your kids speak much louder than the opinions of the people in your church? when they find out your child might be gay? How does loving your child matter to you so much more than the opinions of the people in your church if you are in interracial relationship, right? Because these are other things that parents just own their children for. And so a lot of it really requires a parent's desire to get to the root of their belief system. And for me, that's a big part of my work.

Because when we look at the context of society, we have a lot of boomers. who grew up during the Jim Crow era, whose parents were raising them during a very racialized society, a very patriarchal society. We still live in one now, all of that still exists, but we must say that

there has been some progression along the way, especially since the 20th century. And so when we're thinking about parenting, we also have a lot of systems that are at play when it comes to how you see the treatment of men and women, when it comes to race, when it comes to sexuality, not only do you have to now work with this parent to unpack empathy and compassion for this child, you might realize that you have to unpack

a lot of systemic ideologies that have been ingrained into them because of the climate that they were also living in. So it's so rooted in just not interpersonal relationship sometimes. It is also rooted in the systemic because we're influenced by our society. And so we didn't have our parents and our grandparents didn't have social media. We didn't have advocates and allies at that time who were able to write blog posts and go online and share the information that we find easily accessible on social media. They didn't have that. And so that racial divide, that divide between men and women, all of that also existed that I find that I have to unpack when I am working with older adult parents when it comes to raising millennials and specifically raising Gen Z.

Yeah. It's such a good point that there's all these other factors at play, right? All this systemic stuff that has influenced our parents. And I think when we think about accepting them, that also comes into play in our own formation of like the idea of who our parents are, what era they grew up in, what they experienced. And I find that that's when it becomes this really delicate dance of like, how much can I accept, how much is impossible for me to accept, you know, especially when we're talking about these big things like, you don't accept who my partner is. You don't accept my choice of religious. whatever it may be, that sometimes those are too big for the adult child to say, I can still maintain a relationship with you, even though you don't accept this about me because this is such a big part of me that I can't hide this when I'm in relationship with you. And I love that you brought up the point about parents estranging themselves from their children because I do find that the way that story gets told still always gets put back on the adult child, right? And they're very kindly worded ways of saying, well, I love them. God loves them. When they're

ready to come back to the church, we will be ready to embrace them. You know, these things like that where you're really saying, like, my child's gay, don't accept them. And if they change, we'll bring them back in. You know, but it sounds so kind and considerate, you know, in the way that they say that I think a lot of people really do believe like, oh, this is a nice, sweet parent who wants the best for their child, then they're not estranging themselves from them. And it's definitely a lot more nuanced than that. And it's not always the adult child that is making that decision. It's not always. And I think it's really important to amplify that. because I see a lot of parents in particular making the complaint that the child is doing this, the child is doing that, and these children are ruining families by separating themselves, but it's like, you probably have a peer right now who doesn't pick up the phone to call their own kid.

Relationships are a two-way street, even when it's a parent-child relationship. So what's that about? Let's unpack why, as a parent, you don't speak to your own kid. And how did it get to a place where you feel comfortable going 10 to 20 years without talking to your own child? Why? We really have to unpack your complacency in that. And so I think a lot of parents have to do a lot of reflective work because there are certain things that I find where differences can be honored. But if you cannot respect your child, respect is a big part of a relationship.

no matter what kind of relationship is. And again, I think it goes back to parents believing because of the power hierarchy and their title, the power that comes with their title, what they say goes. And if I don't respect this relationship, don't bring your partner to Thanksgiving. Well, then I'm not coming. Well, how dare you not come? You're my child. You're supposed to be here.

But you just said, you don't accept my partner. Here I am trying to maintain a relationship with you, but you need to respect that I'm in a relationship. Right? And so it's so multi-layered that I think that in the same breath where I will always advocate and say to the adult child, what are some things that you can learn about your parent to embrace them and engage in radical acceptance of your parent? I hold that same energy for adult for the parents. And what are some things that you need to learn to accept about your child? But what's different for the parent's side is you equate parent with power. and children are always powerless in the hands of their parents.

So true. And so for you as the parent, you feel like you have a sense of power over your kid that you have to at some point recognize, my child is not two years old anymore. They're not five anymore. And honestly, even if they are five, your five-year-old has choice. Right. And so remember that power hierarchy that parents are holding on to that I think they have a grip on that they are refusing to let go. And that is interfering with their inability to

repair the ruptures in their parent-child relationships. You made a really good point about like when people say estrangement is ruining families, I really think that this is an incorrect statement because I think what's actually ruining families is lack of acceptance, inability to solve problems, you know, abuse, lack of boundaries, all these things that we know are well-documented. and well researched to have a negative impact on families. And estrangement is ultimately a consequence of a destructive behavior that already was existing within that family. And I think when we wake up and we see that and parents and adult children both start

doing a lot of the exploration that you have beautifully illustrated in this episode, we can see where those patterns have come in, not only within our own family, but in the worlds that we've lived in and within our own culture. And when you learn about those things and you become aware of them, it becomes a lot easier, I think, to have compassion for yourself for the other person and to start to move forward. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think that it's about just recognizing the nuances of parent-child relationships. I hate to add a disclaimer at the very end of the at the very end of the show, but I just want listeners to remember that no parent-child relationship is equal and no sent level of dysfunction is equal. And so there are going to be

takeaways from what we just talked about that may not be applicable to your situation with your parent because the type of abuse you experienced is so violent that this episode and what we talked about may not apply to you and that is okay, right? And it's about recognizing that your relationship with anyone on this earth, including your parent, is a choice. And so regardless of the sense of trying to learn more about your parent, and you can continue to do that to know why you ended up with possibly a violent parent, right? Because again, no person is equal and no situation is equal. So the child who was raised around maybe an emotionally immature parent who just wasn't really there to invest in your child emotionally versus a person who was raised by a violent

parent, physically, sexually, emotionally, those are two different scenarios. So I also just want to put that disclaimer out there because I know sometimes people feel like, well, maybe I am supposed to forgive, or maybe I am supposed to have this relationship with my parent, and I want you to know that relationships are a choice, and the only way a relationship can thrive is if you feel safe in that relationship. If you do not feel safe with your parent because your parent has not done the work to repair, to do better, to show you that they are not capable of harming you again, then you do not have to give that parent a relationship. And parents also have to recognize if you have caused your child any form of physical, sexual, or violent harm, your child does not

have to be in relationship with you, you know? And so I know we want, we sometimes think forgiveness means reconciliation, but forgiveness can mean I acknowledge that maybe you were not well. Maybe there are some things that you've gone through that led to this cycle of abuse. But I need you to know I've let go and I've moved on, but I cannot move on with you. I'm going to have to move on without you. 100%. I really appreciate that disclaimer because I think sometimes when people hear words like acceptance or forgiveness, it can be equated with having a relationship. And a lot of those things are not equal to having a relationship. You may be accepting that your people, parent is someone that you cannot safely be in contact with. And that gives you peace rather than

fighting with the reality that you wish they were this other person. So I think that's so important to remember, especially when we're talking about these topics, because we'll never know what happened in everybody's unique situation. And so it's important for you to integrate this information in the way that feels best for you. All right. Well, I think that is a perfect place for us to wrap up. Thank you so much for all of your wonderful insight. I think this is going to be a very helpful episode for adult children and parents alike. So thank you so much for being here today. Of course, Whitney. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Mina B. Today, as a reminder, you can listen to her podcast, Mindful with Mina,

anywhere you've got your podcast and you can also order her book owning our struggles. The book is incredible and I highly recommend that you get a copy. I also want to remind you that this month, the entire month of February, we are focusing on accepting your parents inside the calling home community. That means we have new content, worksheets, articles, scripts, everything you could possibly need every Monday. And we also have six groups a month where you can meet with other family cycle breakers inside the family cycle breakers club. So if you're looking for weekly articles or a more intensive membership, please feel free to go to

callinghome.com to join the calling home community and take this information to the next level. If you can't join this month in February, that content will always be live on the website and you can access it anytime. I hope to see you in one of the groups in the future. And I will see you next week for another solo episode of Calling Home podcast. Have a great rest of your day. You know what I'm going to do.