CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Part 1: Nuance Needed About Adult Child and Parent Estrangement

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

This is a two-part series with the hosts of Nuance Needed. In part 1, Whitney, Amanda, and Sam discuss the complexities of parental estrangement, the misconceptions surrounding it, and the impact of social media on family dynamics and estrangement. In Part 2, we reflect on the impact of their work on social media on their personal lives, the challenges of parenting, and tips to avoid estrangement. You can listen to part two on Nuance Needed. For online therapy in 42 states, visit Amanda's practice, Therapy for Women: https://therapyforwomencenter.com/ Join The Family Cyclebreakers Club: www.callinghome.co/join Have a question for Whitney? Call in and leave a voicemail for the show at 866-225-5466. Follow Whitney on Instagram: www.instagram.com/sitwithwhit Subscribe to Whitney's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@whitneygoodmanlmft Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you're with Amex Platinum, you get access to exclusive dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best tapas in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca. www.ca slash YMX. Hey guys, welcome back to the Calling Home Podcast.

I'm your host, Whitney Goodman. Super excited to be back today with a really cool episode. This is going to be a little collaboration between the Calling Home podcast and Nuance Needed. If you're not familiar with the Nuance Needed podcast, the host Amanda and Sam are friends of mine, and I was so excited to partner with them and give you guys this two-part episode. We're tackling a topic that we all know needs a lot more nuance, and that is adult child and parent estrangement. So today you'll hear part one on the

calling home podcast, and we're going to be talking about the different misconceptions around adult child and parent estrangement, what social media gets wrong. And then in part two, which will arrive tomorrow on nuance needed on February 5th. So if you're listening to this later than that episode's already up for you. We dive a little bit deeper into more of the nuance, what else we need to consider, different perspectives. And it was really cool for me to hear from Sam and Amanda who are coming at this from a different perspective. They're not as immersed in the like online world of adult child and parent estrangement. And they have some different takes and some different points that I have not really considered. So it was super

helpful for me to talk to them and hear what they had to say as well. So we'll go ahead and and dive into part one of the episode here. And when you're done with this, please pick it up for part two on nuance needed. And you can find nuance needed wherever you get your podcasts. Hope you guys enjoy the interview and talk to you soon. I think I would want to know from your perspective, like the two of you, what you think about like this space online and what you see going on because I'm so immersed in it that I think sometimes I can get caught. up in it as well. Yeah. I mean, when Sam and I did an episode, we did one for, we did one a long time ago. We kind of laid out the black and the white and the middle. And we kind of,

like, that's what I love about your content, Whitney, is you're very like, you don't have to put up with an abusive relationship. You don't ever have, right? Like, I think that is where the nuance is, sort of, is like, you don't have to ever be in a position where if someone is mistreating you, have to stay in that relationship. But I guess to answer your question, I think there's obviously, the most common stuff I think I see online is like that doormat mom who's like terrorizes TikTok. Yeah, I had to block her because people kept tagging me in all her videos. And I'm like, I'm not going to fight.

Leave me alone. Like she is so broken. Yeah. I just, I think people are like, come on, like go get her. And I'm like, I'm not going to do it. Like, I'm just, this is, it is a very sad display happening right before our eyes. Yeah. I think for me, too, because my content is much more about, like, hyping people up, tapping

into, like, confidence and decision making and having, like, intention and authenticity through that. And I think sometimes, like, the content that I get fed and then, like, the things that I see tend to be around this very like, it is almost controversial if you don't cut off your parents. Interesting. That's kind of what I've noticed is like it's controversial if you tolerate nuance in the relationship with your parents or you have patience with them sometimes or you have like radical acceptance for who they are and their trauma and having boundaries through that.

Or I also get fed the like, my mom is my best friend and we talk to each other 10 times a day. And like, you know, when she dies, I will crawl in the coffin with her and like, you know, kind of like this very intense black and white interpretation. I don't know if you guys have seen content that fits that at all. That's like fascinating to me because I have not seen anything along the lines of like the first part. I've noticed that coming up a little bit, like in my groups maybe more one-on-one, like people sort of being like embarrassed to say that they are tolerating certain behaviors. You know, like, and some of the behavior isn't great, but I talked about this yesterday in one of our groups of saying like, you get to choose, again, you get to choose whatever

relationship you want to be in and you have some people are not at the place even to admit what kind of impact that's having on them. And I don't know that they all end up being estranged in the end. But there's a million reasons why you would maintain a relationship with a parent outside of them just being your parent or their behavior. Right. Well, I think it was like I loved the episode you did about right, the election. I think that came up a lot during the election of like we're standing up. We're not tolerating people in our lives who voted differently than us. And it's almost this like moral purity of, I don't have any, like, it's this, it's become this reverse way of sort of showing how evolved you are in some ways, I think, to be like, I don't

tolerate any not okay behavior in my life. And I have no one in my life who I have to be a little bit inauthentic with. And I think we need to remember that we're all different. There's billions of people. There's all kinds of different relationships. And you are allowed to like be friends with someone or have a family member who you just kind of tolerate because you want it for the betterment of you'd like to go to a family gathering. So not everyone you around has to be perfectly in alignment with who you're like with who you are or what your values are. I also think sometimes I think especially like if we have the political lens, I do think for, like, there's a performative element at times to say, like, my dad voted for Trump.

I'm never speaking to him again. Like, he can get back, like, you know, this kind of. And it's like, what do you want to meddle? Like, because guess what? I dragged my dad from listening to Rush Limbaugh in the car on the way to school to he voted for Biden and Kamala. with his teeth, like, but he knew he had to do that to protect his daughters. And I think him and I have had very uncomfortable conversations about things. And I have had to explain things to him over and over again.

And I had to tolerate the, well, here's the thing. I understand what you're saying. I just don't like the word privilege. I just don't like that word. Why can't we have another work? Because like, I've worked hard. And so now granted, I had a dad who was open. and respectful through those conversations.

But I think sometimes there is, just as Amanda was saying, like this moral purity of I am an intellectual because I have cut off my parents or I don't speak to them or I will not speak with this chunk of my family or interact with them. And it's just performative to me a lot of times. Yeah. It definitely cuts out all the other. context of the relationship, right? And thank you for reminding me of the Rush Limbaugh memories from

my childhood. Why is that like the universal girl experience? Like I can hear Rush Limbaugh saying Feminazi. I know. I'm going to have to remind my sister of that as well after this. But it's like I've, I've dealt with this in my own family. You know, I have a lot of, and I talk about this in my podcast episode that I have a lot of family that doesn't vote with me. But I've also seen them. be giving, kind, compassionate, really show up for a diverse group of people, right? And I don't know that we can make a decision about a parent or any family member based on one marker, right? But the piece that you just brought up, Sam, that's so important, I think, is like, how does the person act when you're talking about this stuff and when you're working through

that that makes all the difference. And I think that's what I find with like the estrangement community, especially with parents, as they're saying like, I'm getting abused every time I bring this stuff up. And if that's not what's happening with you, then of course you can maintain a relationship with a pair. All of our parents are annoying and do weird things. I mean, my kids, my kids are going to say that about me. Right. Yeah. That I think maybe we can talk about like some more of those misconceptions. One that I hear so much on social media that I get all the time is that kids are adults are just cutting off their parents on a whim. Like they're waking up one day and saying, you know what? I loved my parents up until like noon today. And now I'm,

now I'm going to cut them off for literally no reason. Is that something you all come up against as well? Yes. I mean, yeah, I like I've seen that on social media. And I like in my work and stuff like that, too. I don't think anyone cuts up their parents and wakes up one day for that. I think there's also this misconception of, I think people say that because they don't understand how hard it is to cut off a parent. Yeah. So they think that, you know, just cutting off a parent might be a solution for someone when actually it's like the start of a really hard, complicated thing that you have to continue, like it's not a get out of jail free card, which I think sometimes people act like it is online. Yeah, like it's just them escaping or avoiding difficult

conversations. Like that's another misconception, right? Of like they never brought up the problem. They never tried to talk about it. I'm seeing people who have been trying for 10, 15 years, you know. Well, I think it's so hard like when, you know, not everyone is receptive to conversations. not everyone remembers what you remember, right? Like, that's what makes this topic so complicated, is that a lot of times, I mean, maybe those parents do genuinely believe that no one ever talked to them about it before, but it's also like you weren't listening. You weren't paying attention.

You didn't want to hear what someone was telling you, probably. I think one of the overarching things that I've seen is that will trip people up, regardless of the situation they're in, whether they've never really. process the relationship with their parent to they're in like the position of your clients with where they're like, I've been working on this for 15 years and I just can't do this anymore. I think something that trips so many people up is the comparison game because of social media. And so they're seeing all these different stories that are shared without context because you can barely capture the entirety of relationship in a 50 minute session, let alone

like a three-minute TikTok or like a text real, you know. And so they're seeing all of these different scenarios and they're like, well, this person did this and that person did that. But then there was this situation. But like I related to that. But I did. Right. I think there's a lot of confusion going on because there's so many stories that people forget

that they get to like pull back to their own core and make the decision for them. And that it is possible to look at their situation in a bit of a silo. if it is feeling too overwhelming to say, like, if there was nothing else around this situation, what would you do, right? And I think that that comparison game to families and what is or isn't happening within relationships trips people up. I don't know if either of you have noted that at all. Yeah.

I was just going to say, I think it's really hard in, and, you know, you talk about this, Whitney. It's really hard when especially siblings have right different relationships and different experiences. And we forget that, I mean, one child can have abuse or have really difficult things happen. And someone else, like, that's the hard thing about trauma, right? It depends on the person and the context. So that's another layer of it being really hard. Yeah. Sam, I love that, like the silo example, because it is true that I think, especially for victims of abuse and who have been abused by their parents. A lot of times they have that skill of like dismissing and pushing down everything. It wasn't that bad. Minimizing. Yeah, they're being told that by their own parents or their

family. And then they get into the world of social media and it's like, wait, maybe it was that bad. But it wasn't as bad as this person. Oh, but it's a little bit worse than them. And so what am I allowed to do with my relationship based on everything I'm seeing? And then you, you of course, find those other people who maybe did not experience abuse but are feeling misunderstood, I'm confused about their parents' behavior. They're on the other end of the spectrum and they might be saying, oh, well, maybe I would feel better if I did this, if I took distance, you know, from my parents. And it is hard with all that noise that's missing context.

Yeah. You feel, I think it's almost like analysis paralysis. like you just you get so tripped up on seeing that there are so many options that you can't even whittle it down to what feels like appropriate for you in your life because it I think you touched on something too with the minimizing of if you've spent years and decades minimizing the things that have happened to you it's distorted your reality so if you don't even have a tap into what the experience genuinely meant for you and what it did to you, all of that noise just serves to add additional confusion to the dynamic and the relationship. And it's really

overwhelming. I imagine that going through that process, like also with the internet telling you what to think and what a million other people have done can be very overwhelming. What do you guys think about this statement that like estrangement is a trend or it's trendy. No. I always think back to when I worked in a rehab and that, you know, I think that when you're a young therapist, you want to help so much and you see people in these like really unhealthy relationships with their parents. And I remember I would have clients where I would be like, hey, I'm going to teach you how to, you know, create boundaries with your parents and you're

going to change your life and it's going to be amazing. Yeah. And then how naive I was that it's like really hard to end a relationship with parents. It's hard to even change a relationship with parents or set boundaries with them. And through seeing that over and over again, it really changed my perspective of feeling like, no, people will tolerate a lot with parents because we have. this love. We have this need to be close to our parents. And of course, I think there are outliers that can happen where people maybe feel pressured to change their relationship or something like

that. But I think the bigger trend is that people are waking up to, you know, what's been going on in family dynamics. They're being given permission to question things. They're recognizing that what they went through isn't normal. And they're taking space for the first time. And it's kind of like anytime we have a shift in society where people wake up to things, there is a trend. People coming out of the closet, right? Or like getting divorce. That happens when something becomes more of a social norm. But that doesn't mean that it's trendy either. People have been walking away from their family members for a cornucopia of reasons since. frontal cortex is developed, like, whether it was because, like, they literally left physically

and immigrated to a different country or different continent, there has been estrangement on different levels since people were people. And what has happened with social media is now we just have access to stories in a way that is much different where, like, our parents had 60 minutes right or 15 minute segments but different stories and they talk about things and they're like wow that's really interesting and then like you know Oprah comes on with people sharing stories more in depth and interviews and all this stuff and so I think all of this has always been happening we just didn't know it just like Amanda when you touched on you know people coming out or people realizing they have ADHD or they're neurodivergent or right like access to information

helps us to see that this is far more common, but then people lose touch with the ability to assess their own situation. And I think, you know, when you were talking about being a young therapist, like in rehab, I remember when I was in the hospital at first, like you would get these different situations around family members realizing someone's going to go on hospice and the family members like expressing so much regret about something or anger or whatever and I remember like I would it was really hard to like meet people where they were at and because sometimes you would be like well just like tell them that you love them and that you know like get your closure and it's like

it's not that simple and it takes a lot of restraint I think on our end clinically to like pull back and meet that person where they're at and accept their autonomy and and that wonderful and triggering concept of self-determination that they get to decide what is best for them in the dynamic. Yeah, I totally agree with both of you. And I have like so many thoughts just based on what you said that I'm going to try to organize. But first, I think spot on that like this has been happening forever, right? And we know that. And I see that reflected in the groups that I do that we have people up to like, you know, age 75 that are coming in there and saying I've been estranged from my mother for, you know, decades. I think that the cell phone,

social media has made it so it's become such a need to really cut people off, like to tell them to stop contacting you because of how many ways they can get in touch with you. I mean, I have talked to people where they're like, they create burner phones to call me. They create more email addresses, more social media accounts, like parents, siblings that are estranged, you know, that there is so much technology to find someone now. And we've become so accustomed to checking in and getting that reassurance about the relationship. You know, especially among young people, like going away to college, trying to differentiate, and they have a parent that's very enmeshed. And on top of them who wants to hear from them all the time, I find these

adults being like, I have to cut this person off because they literally will not stop. Yeah, they won't leave me alone. Right. And I can't become my own person with you on top of me while I'm at college. I'm sure you guys have heard those stories of like the Facebook groups at universities where the parents will be like, my kid didn't like what was in the lunchroom today. And they're like 25 and in college. Like the helicopter parenting generation is like reaching, you know, that point where I think it's, it's. it's almost become the only option for some people because they're being like stalked by their family members to some degree.

And it's just too much. And Sam, the other piece that you just said about like being in a hospital and hospice, it's so interesting because I get comments all the time from people who do at end of life care on my post that will be like, these people that are dying are so sweet and their kids won't come visit them, they're assholes. And I'm like, you met this person. This is like the context piece, right? Like, of course they're nice to you. Like, you're giving them medication at the end of their life and they're in like a facility. You think that you know from that interaction how they treated their children for the last 60, you know, 50 years. It's really fascinating.

That's a big group that I tend to get pushback from, oddly. Well, and death is one of those. things that if you are facing your own mortality, you change. Totally. You become a little bit more reflective. You become a little bit more aware. And great, you decided to become aware in the last six months of your life. That doesn't erase that you were an absolute pick for like decades. And, you know, we're either domineering or demand.

or like just the worst and yeah there's like so much context to that and I think the assumption that I think kind of like the universal theme that I'm starting to see through this as well is kind of this assumption that to make this choice to your family you're being selfish like there's this part of you that's not being empathetic to your parents struggle or your sibling struggle or your grandparents struggle right like we're not being empathetic enough to their life and their background and why they're acting this way. And it's like, yeah, all of that can be real while they also have natural consequences to the things they haven't dealt with. Yeah. And the natural consequence going back to the death thing is that, yeah, there might be

some kids missing at your bedside when you pass. And that's horrible and that's devastating. And the whole situation is just heartbreaking. That doesn't make the child or the family member they made that decision, like, selfish or heartless. Yeah. If we think about it in terms of, I think, and I feel this more as becoming a parent, I can see this of just, I think we're in this new generation also of, you know, our parents didn't even really get a choice of whether they wanted to have kids, right? A lot of times or especially the generation before that.

So I think we're in this really big time of change of questioning what we want, questioning the relationships in our lives. think there is an unfortunate baggage that's kind of continued of, you know, I didn't have a good relationship with my parents. My parents treated me like crap. So you have it better than me. So you should be grateful for all that I've given you. And it just is this baggage that gets carried down generation after generation. And I will die on the hill as a parent that like my kids don't owe me anything. I chose to bring them into this world. Obviously, I want to have a good relationship with them, but I really feel like it is on me. And they don't, like, my child doesn't

owe me, you know, seeing me. It's a privilege to have a relationship with my child. Yeah. And your childhood has nothing to do with them. I think that's the piece that gets lost is like, well, if you hear what I went through, that should make you more grateful when in reality, like, isn't that the goal? I want my kid's childhood to be better than mine. And I hope that they look back and say, like, mom, look what I learned and I'm improving. I wouldn't want them to just copy and paste or do things worse. It also brings us back to that like context piece, right? that like, you know, I'm raising children in a completely different world than my parents did. And so what I do is going to have to be different. It would be weird if it wasn't. And I think

that's also some friction. You know, I see a lot of grandparent issues. And that can be a reason for estrangement, right? Is the way that you're showing up as a grandparent is so triggering and hurtful and you're doing the same thing that some of the parents of adult children think we should just keep doing things exactly the way that they've always been done. And if you choose not to do that, it's an insult to me and it's a rejection. And that drives a lot of people apart. Is that, Whitney, like in your work with your clients, do you feel like that is also tied into like the generational trauma aspect where like some dynamics are so normalized and so common that it's almost embraced as like family culture.

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A hundred percent. Absolutely. I mean, I mean, the one story that I've seen coming up so much on TikTok that I did an episode on was this idea that, like, the older generation should be in the room when you're delivering your baby, you know? And I'm like, I barely even wanted, like, my own, I mean, my mom was there for my second child. My first one was COVID. Nobody was there.

But, like, that's a really intense moment. But I remember talking to my mom and she's like, yeah, with all three of her kids, there were like 30 people showing up the second after she. had a baby. It's very common, you know, especially in Hispanic families, like for everyone to be there. And I've seen a lot of women setting this boundary and talking about like, I don't want my mother-in-law to be there when I have my legs like in the stirrups, you know, pushing out a baby. And it causes them to literally become unhinged because they were told I should get to be there. Like, that's my right.

And I think that is part of just these passed down things of like, it's almost like I tolerated it and I stuffed it down. Yeah. Why can't you? Yeah. And now I'm owed that, right? Because, like, that's my, that's what I get for being like a good girl in a lot of ways, right? Yeah. And then they're not getting it back because this generation of, you know, the generation I'm a part of women is like, um, no thanks.

I think I'll do it different. Yeah. Well, and then, yeah. like now we're contemplating this grief that these parents and some grandparents are having around things being so different in these moments that they thought they were guaranteed are now being like taken from them but then yeah like going back to Amanda what you said like there is nothing owed like the whole point of having a child is to raise a good stable like contributor to society human it is not to create this person that, you know, as Taylor Swift says, an ever-lovely jewel who shine reflects on you, right? Like, that's not the point. And I think that's where, you know, Whitney, the story you shared, I had a client who

went through almost that exact situation and the guilt and the shame that was present as we were trying to work through the boundaries and the expectations and communicate that. It was really hard. Yeah. That's, I think, I think we're talking about another like really important misconception that does get pushed around that like you really brought up, Amanda, of like, what, what do we owe our parents? And do we owe them all these things that are typically like culturally dictated, right? Because they gave us a roof over our head. And, and what does it mean to say, like, I'm not going to pay you back for the things that you gave me. And when you look at it, generationally, right, each one, because, and that's the wild thing

is if you look back, it's like parents had kids to work on their farm. Like, to work for them. So, like, that was the context that we had kids. Like, because we didn't even have choice. That's why. So it has created this social contract. of every, you know, sibling owes the parent something generation after generation. And now we're saying, you chose to have me, right? Like, I don't owe you having a relationship with you just because you put a roof over my head. Because those are the bare minimum things. You should, it is illegal to have a child and not feed them and not get a roof over their head. It's not a gift.

They're developmentally unable to take care of themselves. And you will go to jail if you don't take care of your child. But in any other situation, if we compare doing the bare minimum, like you don't, like if you walk down the street and you don't murder someone, they don't owe you something. And I think that that's what's so, I just, I hope this generation is starting to make the change, but I think this is also the biggest schism that's how. happening of when some generation has finally broken this cycle, that, you know, the parents of those kids are going to feel really angry because they stuffed it down like we were talking about. Yeah.

But at some point, the cycle does need to break. And I, yeah, I just as a, like, never more than, I used to say this and people would be like, when you have a parent, when you have a child, you will feel totally differently. And of course, it would be the most devastating, heartbreaking, worst thing that would ever happen to me if my child stopped talking to me and we didn't have a relationship. But I also very much feel like it is my responsibility as the parent to do as many things as I can to have a good relationship. That doesn't mean that I let them abuse me, right? Like there are situations where that happens and things like that. But they don't owe me anything.

My child doesn't owe me anything for taking care of them and raising them and giving them opportunities because I chose to have them. Right. I think that's another misconception too that I hope when I say this it makes sense that we have this belief that the person that walks away is the one that is creating the estrangement, right? And what you're saying is like, no, there are generations of people saying, we're not. not going to do this anymore. And the other person is saying, well, I'm not changing. And I'm not going to do anything different. Yet we point the finger a lot of the time, especially online, at the person who initiated the cutoff. When in reality, I don't like to look at like whose fault is this, but it's also the other person's fault and responsibility. Well, and I think that speaks to this

issue at large that I think is now seeping into everything from the political environment on down, which is this idea that the person that is demanding accountability is the one in the wrong. Yes. Right. And I think we're seeing this in the backlash to the Me Too movement. I think we're seeing this in this more religious conservative culture that is brewing and taking root. It's this idea that if you cause that friction and you cause everybody to look at the thing that

makes them uncomfortable or the thing that causes them to have to reflect, you are the one upsetting the order. Thus, you are the problem. If you could not figure out how to just deal with it on your own without making waves, none of us would have to be in this position. Yep. And so, yeah, we're like pointing the finger at the one that is demand. changing change and demanding something needs to die in order for this to continue to grow or move forward or shift and not someone needs to die in meaning something, right? Like make that very clear. Like, you know, dynamics, cultures, generational trauma, things need to be left behind in order

to move forward. That causes like seismic shifts within families. Years and years and years ago, I worked at a residential center for teen girls in Utah, which has its own problematic thing that we could probably do an entire series on. And I have some concerns about that. But one of the things that I really appreciated about the place that I worked at was, in order for your child to attend, family therapy was mandatory every week. Whether it was virtual, whether you lived local, it was mandatory every week that there

would be family therapy because the belief was, and this is absolutely accurate, it, you cannot just change one cog in the machine. You have to completely restructure the machine in order for the child to have success going back home. And so when someone stands up and demands that level of accountability and change, there's a recognition that everybody would have to engage with that in some form. And it's just so much easier to just point the finger at the other person and make them the quote unquote enemy or the problem or the black sheep. when in reality they're just speaking truth to power. I think, Sam, you, like, took the words right out of my mouth with that one because it, no,

it's perfect. Like, it was exactly what I was thinking. It's like the person also who's pointing out the behavior or the dysfunction, sometimes they're doing that in some pretty unhealthy ways. Right. You know, like they can be doing that and be struggling with addiction, with mental health issues, with self-harm. And that's something that comes up a lot among the population I work with is.

that they'll say, like, my parents will just call me crazy. You've always had problems. You just can't get along with us. And it's exactly what you're saying, especially I think when you have a teenage girl that's behaving in a certain way. People are very quick to be like, oh, she's dramatic. Just dismissive. Yeah. And it is very easy then for the family to keep doing what they're doing and blame the other person. And I see this a lot among siblings. You know, that comes up a lot. in my comment section of like, my sister's estranged for my parents, but she's an absolute nut job and I get why they don't want to talk to her. And she's always been this way. And I'm like, oh, gosh, you're all playing your role, but you don't see that like you're doing something here

too, right, to protect your relationship with your parents and with your family that is making it possible, you know, to exile your sibling. How, Whitney, how impossible is it for you to moderate your comment section? That's what's like going through my mind while we're having these conversations, knowing that this is like the bulk of your content. I mean, like, my God. I block so many people. Like if you come and you be like, especially, people are usually just nasty towards me,

which is easy, like to block, like, especially as strange parents, you know, if I had a dollar for every parent that wishes that my kids never speak to me and that say that my parents probably hate me and like all this stuff, you know, like, it's that like rage baiting kind of stuff. And I do think that they take out their aggression on me a lot of the times because I am probably a similar age to their children and present that way. I was talking to, I don't know if you guys know who Patrick T. He does a lot of like childhood trauma work. He's a great YouTube channel.

but he does a lot of estrangement work. And he does not get the same type of comments as I do. And we were talking about like why that might be happening. You know, he's a man. He's a little bit older than me. So it's fascinating what like the messenger can evoke in somebody else. On TikTok, there was a woman that this was probably about a year ago made it her mission to eviscerate me. She just like went through every single post.

that I ever did. And apparently the reasoning was her daughter posted a video of mine to her stories. And then supposedly immediately after cut off contact with her. Yeah. And so I became like the representative of that news. And it must have been my fault that this one video that her daughter saw, you know, and she just went through the comments and she was like, you're not God. Why are you acting like God?

And I was like, right? Like, I let her go for a little bit because I think people have a right to be angry and it's fine. You can think whatever you want. But then eventually I blocked her after the 60th comment. I think I was incredibly patient. But I think, you know, that's really fascinating that this older man does not get that same response. Yeah. Which I think for us as millennial aged women, we trigger that, like,

like mother, daughter, tension when they see us talking about these things and being so open about these things and empowering people to make these decisions. Like, yes, we're speaking about the nuance of it and we're, you know, speaking to the complexity of it, but the reason we're doing that is so that people understand the complexity of their situation doesn't make it wrong. That just means you're a human living, the human experience. And it's pretty revolutionary for people to be speaking so openly about these dynamics and these issues and this generational trauma. And I think older mothers struggle with the idea of someone who could be interchangeable to their daughter asking for accountability.

100%. I also just like funny side know. It's like they always comment like, you're so young, wait till you grow up, like be quiet little girl. And I'm like, you guys, that is. the biggest compliment you could give me that you think that I'm so wise. I screenshot all of them and send them to my husband. I'm like, skincare is working? Like, I am looking useful. I'm like, how old do you think I am? Like, it's wild. And so, like, dismissive of all of the experience that we have and the work that we do. And fine, yeah, you want to think I'm this, like, wise little sermon on the mount, like, in my third. Please, please, like, keep it coming because I am. But I want to keep talking about what you said, Sam, and hear what you guys have to say about this, that do you think that people are being convinced by what they see from therapists, especially, about estrangement to become estranged?

What do you think of? I don't think they're being convinced. I think that sometimes people, I don't think they're being convinced at all because, again, like I said, I think that people naturally really. really want relationships with their parents and people are not interested in just cutting people off for no reason. And I think the nuance of it is that some people, I think, can get overwhelmed when they hear different stories and feel like they need to have perfect relationships with people. And then they can feel like there's something wrong with me if I'm hearing someone else

saying, I need to end the relationship with my mom because of this. And then they hear that their mom does that. And they can kind of forget that they need to come back to themselves. So I don't think any of the content online tells people things that aren't already happening in their life. Like, I don't think anyone is convincing someone that they have a bad relationship that there isn't tension there and there isn't issues. But I think that sometimes people can get caught up in semantics of what they should do and even sometimes what the first few steps are. Like I've heard from clients who've told me that other therapists have told them, oh, if your, if your parent is doing this, you should just cut them off. And that is something that's

concerned me of just like what parent or what therapist is saying that. because I think that estrangement is the culmination of lots of steps and lots of work. And it takes a lot of work to maintain estrangement, to be honest. It is much easier to just keep going with the flow. So if you look at it from that lens, I don't think people are going to just actively go against the flow as much as they possibly can for no reason. Well, and I think what you're speaking to as well, Amanda, is this idea of representation. Right? Like seeing yourself reflected back in some of these stories and to recognize that it is not a simple choice, but then yet getting caught up in, well, what do I do? Because it is so difficult. Like, how do I even approach this? Because it is going to be so painful and it is going to feel really overwhelming and frustrating. And I think, yeah, it has been interesting. I've had. I think I've had two clients over the past couple of years kind of bring up similar experiences with other therapists of this, like, well, just do this.

And now, of course, like, as therapists, we know, like there's context to those situations, right? But it does seem very concerning that there would be clinicians and are that would say, well, then that means because A has happened, you must do B. And we know the whole point of therapy is that our space is to be. exploratory. And I think in some of my work with people at all levels, and I think this, you know, we're talking about family estrangement too, but I think there's like a friendship element here as well, because we often repeat our family dynamics and our friendship dynamics, right? And so I think something that I've been seeing is people coming to my sessions with this, not a, I have to do this, or I've been convinced of this, but a hopelessness of like, is this what it is forever?

Like, does it just have to be crappy for forever? Because it seems like everybody's talking about how their relationship in some form is crappy. Like, because this happens and this happens and that happens and people are dealing with this and that and that. So almost this like resignation of like, well, this just means none of our relationships can ever really be good because the bad is. exists. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, the black and white all or nothing thinking about the content that they're seeing or the stories that they're seeing or what other people have told them. Yeah, it's so helpful for me to hear like what you all are experiencing, like in your respective kind of niches and populations that you work with because it's amazing how,

you know, when you work with a certain group, you can, of course, also get swallowed up by what you're seeing there and not see all the other perspectives that I think it's concerning to hear any therapist saying, like, that should be the first step, right? And I don't know about you guys, but if I had someone come to me and say, like, I'm in an abusive relationship and they start talking about it, my first gut instinct would not be to say, you need to leave. You know, like... Well, because we know it's not that simple. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And you need to go way further down the line before you can even make any type of recommendation. And even then, it's still more about like, well, what do you want to do? Yeah. And what's going to make your

life better? Some people will ultimately end to stay in relationships that we as the therapist will look at and say, what are you doing? Yeah, I don't like that for you. I think you're miserable, but it's what you're choosing. And so I'm going to help you navigate it the best that I can. And I think that's standard can be applied to adult children and their parents and family members. That seems to be the piece also we keep coming back to, right? You get to decide what these relationships look like no matter what a therapist on TikTok says or your friend does with theirs, that you are ultimately the one who holds the power here. And no one knows your relationship better than you. The people that I see becoming estranged from their parents also have deeply entrenched

patterns that play out in the same way over and over, right? So if you're listening to this episode and you're coming up against a roadblock with your relationship with your parent and you haven't tried to work through it or to discuss it or to take a different approach, like that's where you would start. Right. If you've tried to solve problems a hundred times and they keep ending up the same way, Well, then we want to, like, divert down a different road, right? But I think you bring up such a good point, too, Whitney, of, like, there are many, like, off-ramps.

Like, if we look at estrangement as a spectrum rather than one thing, I think that's what social media gets wrong and collapses about it. Is it's like you're in a relationship with your family and then you're estranged versus there are many ways to pull back or even maybe be estranged from your family that are not all the same. You can go low contact. You can go, right? Like, there's a lot of different layers. You can not talk to people. You can take a break. You can do all these different things. And I think the people online who say that, you know, it's trendy don't understand or aren't understanding all of the nuance and the layers of people's options, because that's what we want to give people is options and choice so that they can make the best decision for themselves.

Well, and something that I try to do in my sessions when this is coming up, regardless of the situation, is sometimes I'll be like, well, why don't we work through some possible natural consequences that could come from doing A, B, or C, right? And I think when you identify something, at least I found, and I'm really curious what the both of you think as well, I found when we identify something as more like a neutral consequence, it makes things feel more approachable because it removes like the moral component to it, which I think is another element that is kind of dancing around all of the comments that we're making is I think people get tripped up on, well, this is what good people do. or this is how bad people behave, or this is what is right to do. This is what is wrong to do. And so there's all of these moral conundrums that people feel like they're tripping up on when in reality we're just talking about human behavior and responses and reactions.

So when they come and they're feeling really flooded with like, well, I don't know what to do or kind of like you said wit when they're like, I've done the same thing a million times, but I keep getting the same response. I don't know why. It's like, okay, well, let's talk about it. If you choose to go low contact, how are you prepared to deal with this? Or are you prepared to have this conversation? Or are you interested in having to kind of have like a mid-heat going at all times

and maintaining that simmer? Are you okay with that level of effort? And I think allowing people the feeling of empowerment to be able to explore all the different ways that they can do it. And I feel like our job as clinicians is to provide that space where they can test something out. And we might know in our mind like, oh, it's not going to go good. It's going to be really bad. But then the whole point. Sometimes we're surprised.

Yeah. Sometimes I'm shocked. They come back and they're like, it was incredible. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm going to go do some reflecting on my own of my judgment. But yeah, like for them to be able to go out, try something, come back and be like, that worked great or that was the worst thing I've ever done and allow them the space to be reflective of the why and then coming up with their own answers to these relationships and what they do or don't want to do. and I think so many people have just never been asked, what do you want to do? They're assuming there's somebody else that has the right answers or the right way to do something when they don't because their situation is not yours.

Yeah. I love what both of you are saying and I agree wholeheartedly. I think like in an effort to like provide some nuance to this, I want to share like a few different ways that I've seen people. handle these situations like that's one of the things I love most about the groups that I run is that people can share like this is what I'm doing right now with my parent that's working for me or you know we have someone share like a situation where they go to all major events for their family group events but they do not maintain contact with one family member outside of events and that's worked for them and they brought this up yesterday in group and a lot of people

were like, huh, how do you do that? How did you tell the other person that that's what you were going to do? What do you do if they contact you in between? And I think this speaks to what you're saying, Sam, is like, can we work through what all of those options are, right? I knew someone that was estranged from their parent for many, many years and then took care of them at the end of their life and actually had their parent move in with them. That was a really wild, you know, different ending to a story and it was meaningful for them. I know people who only, like, have text contact with their parent. They don't do phone calls or they only agree to see each other in person.

The one thing that this hinges on that I think we have to remember for all these different nuanced situations is that the other party respects what you are putting in place. And so that's where I see that all these people can find these really cool scenarios, right? Because the other person is agreeing to them. They're participating at least a little bit. They're trying, let's say. But I know people that they set that and they get just absolutely railroaded by this person. I also have a lot of members at Calling Home who set this type of boundary with their parent

and their parent ghost them. They do not talk to them anymore. I mean, it's actually crazy how much this is coming up because this is another thing we can talk about that it's not always the adult child cutting off the parent. I'm seeing a lot of parent cutting off the child because parent doesn't like the boundary or how the child is. And so they just dip out. Like it's kind of wild.

So that's also, you know, a situation that happens that I don't think we hear about as much. Wow. Yeah. I didn't think about that at all. Me either until people started sharing it. Yeah. I will say, and I'll have people ask me like, well, what is? Like, what's so hard about being a therapist?

And I'm like, honestly, it is the. people in my client's lives who are not cooperating with what we are trying to do. Like, I like gas them up. I'm like, we're going to do this. And then they do it. And they're like, that was awful. And I'm like, I'm sorry. Like, I thought it was going to go different.

I think that is something that isn't the reactions and responses to the estrangement is maybe the element of the conversation that is being left out. Totally. Yeah. And like how sad, I mean, like, as the adult child to be like I just go back to all the time too of someone's trying to set these boundaries because they don't they don't want to get there right like they're doing these off ramps these low contact things right so that they still can maintain some sort of relationship and then the parent essentially says if you don't do exactly what I want to do I don't want

anything to do with you at all like my gosh that is so heartbreaking to hear about and it's leads me to be like, what was this child to you? Like you cared more. It sounds like if someone's doing that about how the relationship looked from the outside versus the actual, your actual child. And I think that happens too is parents really are invested in how a family looks, how they look, how the relationship is portrayed, being able to say, look at my grandkids, look at this, look at that. And they care more about that than the actual quality of the relationship. And that is, I think, just one of the most heartbreaking things that can probably happen to a child. Well, there's almost an element of like, I'm going to beat you to the punch.

Like, I'm going to hurt you before you have the chance to hurt me. And it's just like so, like, it's just icky and it's sad. Yeah. I think it's horrible to go to your parent, especially with, like, pain, even saying to them, you know, I feel like we're, and this is, these are situations I've heard, like going to a parent and saying, I feel like we're not very close or like, I want to fix the relationship with you and the parent being like, that's just kind of how our relationship is, tough luck, you know, that they, they don't have the conflict resolution skills, they cannot feel the feelings that come up when they're even approaching that conversation, that they say, that feels so scary to me that I'd rather

lose you than even go there. Devastating. I know. I hope you loved part one of this episode as much as I did. If you would like to keep listening, and I hope you do, you can head over to part two of this episode on nuance needed, where Amanda, Sam and I dive deeper into this topic and talk. a lot more about what nuance is needed. I share some of my personal experience with backlash on social media, especially from some estranged parents on TikTok. So if you want to hear

how I was affected by that, definitely go listen to that story because it's an interesting one. If you are listening to this episode on February 5th, their episode on Nuance Needed is already live. Otherwise, we will see you tomorrow when part two goes live. The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship between you and Colling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home's terms of service linked in the show notes below.

I'm going to be able to be.