CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Q&A: Co-parenting with a Narcissist

Episode Date: July 24, 2025

In this Q&A episode, Whitney addresses a caller's concerns about co-parenting with her ex-husband while he is living with his mother with whom he has an enmeshed relationship with and who has actively tried to sabotage their marriage in the past. Have a question for Whitney? Record a voice memo on your phone and email it to [e-mail] Whitney Goodman is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and the founder of Calling Home, a membership community that helps people navigate complex family dynamics and break harmful cycles. Join the Family Cyclebreakers Club⁠⁠ Follow Whitney on Instagram | sitwithwhit Follow Whitney on YouTube | @whitneygoodmanlmft ⁠⁠Order Whitney’s book, Toxic Positivity⁠⁠ This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone. Welcome back to the calling on podcast. I am your host, Whitney Goodman. Today we've got a Q&A episode, but first we need to talk about a couple of things. Thank you all so much for the positive feedback on my reality TV slash TV show dysfunctional family dynamics recaps that I've been doing. I want to talk a little bit about that today. I have a really cool story with like this quiz from one of our estranged adult child groups. And then I want to talk a little bit about what's going on at calling home. After that, we'll get to the caller question for today. Also, just a heads up, if you want to submit a question for me, you can do it via voice note as well and just send it to Whitney at callinghome.com, record a voice note on your phone and send it over to me via email. It makes it a lot clearer for us to drop it into the podcast, and that way you don't have to call my number and all that other complicated stuff.

So email Whitney at callinghome.com and send that over. Okay. First thing I want to talk about is the Real Housewives of Miami recent episodes. There is so much family estrangement being talked about in this show. And what I have found so fascinating is the amount of terrible advice and like platitudes that are being given to people. So whenever someone talks about being estranged from a family member, not having contact with them, there's a lot of this like, but they're your dad, but they're your mom. You're going to miss them when you're gone and this weaponization of some of that rhetoric that I think is just not very helpful. We have to be so careful, those of us that have close relationships with our family, not to project that closeness onto others and assume that they feel the same way about these situations that you do. because it's just most of the time, not accurate. And so if you have nothing to say when someone tells you that they're, it's strange or

they don't have a relationship with their sibling, it's okay to just say nothing at all. It's okay to just say to nod, to say, oh, that's hard, but you don't need to come in with any of these, like, toxicly positive latitudes. Plug for my book right there. You can get my book, toxic positivity. wherever books are sold, which has been out now for, oh my gosh, we're coming up on, I think it'll be four years next year in February. So that's exciting. All right. The next thing I wanted to talk about was that I ran an estranged adult child group today. I'm recording this on Monday. So that's the

day that we have that group twice a month. And someone brought up this really amazing example. And so I want to pose this question to you. They were talking about family issues from from the past being a lot like making a recipe and looking back at how the recipe had gone. And I want you to think about how you would answer this and also how maybe someone in your family or someone that you have a difficult relationship with might answer this. I want you to imagine that you go online and you get a recipe for brownies and you put all the ingredients in a bowl, you mix it up, you put it in the pan, you bake it and the brownies are done, they come out, you taste them and they taste like garbage, you spit them out.

which is your most likely response to this scenario? A, do you first go back and look at the recipe and make sure that you did everything correct and that you didn't miss any steps? Or B, do you immediately say, this recipe is disgusting? I can't believe this person is putting this out there. Go write a negative review on their recipe online, throw the brownies away, and swear to never make any of their recipes again. I think how you answer this question says a lot about like self-reflectiveness in a weird way. And I loved this example that this group member brought up because it's so true that we can look back at the things that happen in our families as sort of this recipe, this bowl of things that just keep getting added and added and each person's contributing their own bits of flavor. And sometimes in the end we get something that is this disgusting sloth.

And are we just going to say, not my fault. That's just how it turned out. Or are we able to look back and be like, what have we been putting in here? And how has it not been combining maybe in the way that we wanted it to? Is there anything different that we could do moving forward if we decide to bake another batch of brownies? Is there anything we could learn from what we did with this recipe? And I, you know, I was so struck when this group member brought this up. because I think that a lot of estranged parents specifically that I have spoken to, that I've worked with that are really in a specific type of estrangement where their adult child has told them what's wrong, has pulled away and does not want to have a relationship with them. I really think that a lot of them might say, well, the recipe was wrong. I followed everything correctly. I put all the right stuff in. They told me, to do a tablespoon of this, a teaspoon of that, I did it. Clearly, the recipe was just garbage. And when this person was giving this example, I was like, no, that's, that is how a lot of

people would respond, right? Because it couldn't be them. It couldn't be that they put salt in instead of sugar. It couldn't be that one of the ingredients was expired and they didn't check the label. It has to be that the recipe was bad. And I think we see this. in so many families where there is such denial and so much self-protection on behalf of the parent that they cannot reflect. It all has to be externalized. Which brings me to the next thing I wanted to say. I spent my morning listening to an episode of Dr. Becky's Good Inside podcast where she talks about her own deeply feeling kid. And this is a, it's not a diagnosis. It's like a label, a way of looking at kids that she has come up with. And she really, this was inspired by her own

child. And every time she talks about deeply feeling kids, I see one of my kids in that. And I'm trying to learn how to be a better parent and learn different skills for this specific child. Because a lot of what I'm doing, what is like innate to me doesn't seem to be the right fit for the specific kit. And in this podcast episode, she goes on to tell a story about an incident, several incidents that she had with her deeply feeling child that she regrets, that makes her feel a lot of shame and grief and pain. And I think she even shares that she's disgusted with herself for how she parented and how she acted towards her child during this time. And I want to say how amazing it was to hear this, because you have to think about this. This is a woman who is a

psychologist and it was a mother of three children who has, I think she has like 3.5 million followers. on Instagram, and she has an entire business where she helps people become better parents. There is a huge infrastructure behind Dr. Becky and what Dr. Becky is. And Dr. Becky's credibility is very important to the business of Dr. Becky, right? And there are a lot of people, I think, who rely on her public image being good and secure and reliable. And when she tells this story of a very shameful and hard moment in her parenting, that requires a lot of vulnerability for someone who has built their image around being a

parenting expert, right? And when I was listening to this, I was like, wow, think about how amazing this is for her kids. because these are the children of someone who is highly regarded within the parenting world as being an expert at parenting. And that doesn't mean that she's always a perfect parent. And I think she talks about this a lot. But her kids are going to have things that upset them about her, that she did, that they didn't

love or that hurt them. Because being a parent and being a good parent to your kids is very different than being a parenting expert. And this is why I don't think being a parent makes you a parenting expert because being a therapist who works with parents and being a parenting expert is someone who has a lot of knowledge about different types of parenting, parenting different types of kids. They can cast a wide net and have expertise in a lot of areas. that is very different than being an expert on your one child. And those expertise is often are not translatable across, you know, how you are as a mother and how you are as a professional. There are couples therapists that are excellent couples therapists and they might get divorced. Like, it's not the same thing.

So that being said, I thought this was so amazing and wonderful that this person who doesn't have to do this has all the credibility in the world. has opened the door to show her children and other parents that, hey, look, I mess up too. I'm fallible. I make mistakes. I can have guilt and shame around my parenting. I can admit it, can admit it publicly to a huge audience. And I can allow my kids to have feelings about my parenting that may not match the way the public perceives me as a parenting expert.

And I think for a lot of adults who have issues with their parents, this is a big thing. Because a lot of you, especially in our groups about adult children of emotionally immature parents, talk about this disconnect between who your parent was at home and who they were in public and how you couldn't really complain about your parent or bring anything up because they were so highly regarded or respected in the community, in the church, in their job, whatever it is, that when we as parents allow our children to have their own perception, of us that doesn't have to line up with our spouse's perception of us, our co-worker's perception, it can be different, it can be dynamic, and it can be in flux. That's huge. The other thing here that I want to point out is that we have a parenting expert who's highly regarded saying, I mess up. I make mistakes. Every parent does. And this is where I always come back to when I hear parents say, there is no reason why my adult child would not have a relationship with me. They had a perfect, wonderful, easy childhood. They got everything they wanted. They're just

ungrateful. Because that is not true for anyone on this planet. No one has had a perfect childhood. No parent, even Dr. Becky, even me, Whitney, has not made mistakes. We've all made mistakes. Our children will all have perceptions of us that we feel are inaccurate or not totally rooted in the same reality that we have, but that are theirs, that are their experiences. And so I hope what you can take away from this, if you're an estranged parent that has found yourself listening to this episode of my podcast and you feel like there is nothing for me to admit to, nothing for me to have accountability for, nothing for me. Nothing for me. to name, I would be curious how you became the only parent that doesn't have something

that they did wrong because I just don't think that exists. And so maybe it's shame or guilt or embarrassment or this need to protect yourself so heavily that's getting in the way. And maybe hearing people like Dr. Becky, like myself, saying, hey, I've made mistakes. I've done things that I am ashamed of, that I'm embarrassed of, that I've yelled at my kid, I've snapped, and I know that I have to be accountable for that. Maybe that can open you up a little bit too and leave you open to saying, maybe there is something that I missed. Maybe there was a time where I hurt them or I upset them. And it doesn't make me a bad mom.

It makes me human. What makes me a bad mom or a mom that has bad moments is if I completely deny any wrongdoing. And I don't apologize for it. And I don't try to change and make a new recipe, you know, to bring it back to how we started this conversation. I think we have to get better at this as parents, at showing humility, at accepting our faults, knowing when we've made a mistake and admitting it. Like, this is important stuff.

And I wholeheartedly believe all the research that I've done on this topic and all the people I've spoken to, it is not your mistakes that is going to ruin your relationship with your child in the end. it is your inability to own them, accept them, and do something about them. All right. Now we are going to get to that caller question. Let me play it for you now. Hi, Whitney.

I love your podcast and I'm actually, you know, listening to the parts about narcissistic families. And I wanted to ask, so I'm about to start the process of a divorce with my husband, unfortunately, for many reasons, including disability. But one of the things, or one of the things I'm actually hearing, is co-parenting simply because he will most likely be moving back in with his mother. And I know that, you know, you guys are talking a lot about, you know, in messment in narcissistic families and things like that. And that's actually a battle that me and my husband have been fighting our entire relationship. And one of the reasons I'm finally, unfortunately, deciding to divorce, his mom is very much in mess with him.

She was a single mom with him for a while, and it's to the point where it's everyone within her family, so her husband and her three children, her three children with his stepfather as well as my husband. It's like everyone outside the family is the bad guy, and no one will love me more than you. And she has very much triangulated our relationship since day one. She tried to sabotage our relationship, tried to talk him into not dating me. Very much, I'm the most important. She told me when we first got married that he would still need to take care of her. So very much, you know, a narcissistic situation. And we have two kids now.

So I'm just, I don't really know exactly what my question is other than just how to go about co-parenting with someone who can't stand up to his mother and probably never will. and kind of how to navigate my relationship with my kids and, you know, not worry that they're going to be around this mother who's going to obviously talk poorly about me, considering I'm divorcing her son, and just kind of how to navigate that. I mean, it's almost to the point where this family is, I hate to say cult, but they're just treating everyone who comes from outside the family almost like a threat. Like, you have to do things our way, you know, and no boundaries, very unhealthy boundaries. And so just kind of wondering, like, oh, how am I going to navigate that with my own children? And just kind of maybe what that looks like. So it's definitely a fear of mine. I know to keep a good open relationship, connect a relationship with my children.

And they're young right now, a toddler and an infant. So I've got a while, I think. But anyway, it's just kind of wondering. There's been a lot going on with the kids, too, where they, you know, didn't even show up, you know, they don't seem to care about our second child and committed to watching our first child while we were in the hospital. That voicemail got caught off at the end there, but I think we have a lot that we can talk about from this question. And what's so ironic is that I just got done recording an episode for Michelle Dempsey's podcast, and she talks exclusively about. co-parenting and life after divorce and does the the her book is called mom's moving on. I hope I'm getting that right.

And she has so much great stuff about this. And today we were talking on her podcast about parentification and co-parenting and all that good stuff. So this is fresh on my mind. I first want to say that this is a tough situation to be in because so much of it is out of your control. Now, what it sounds like right now is that you are not at the stage yet where a lot of this is happening where you know for sure that your ex after the divorce is going to be moving in with his mother

and all of this is going to be happening. And I understand that this is a fear of yours and you're likely trying to prepare yourself for this potential outcome, understand it, and that can be a good coping mechanism. I think that you have to allow yourself to kind of step back, and be like, I am going to handle all of this as it comes. And if you have an attorney while you're going through the divorce, this might be something to bring up. You know, is his mother going to be part of our co-parenting plan if he's living with her? Are there any safeguards or things that I can put in place to help insulate some of our co-parenting from his family? Because you don't want it to be like it's you up against the family. And I think it's very wise to discuss some of the

these dynamics with your attorney and with whoever is helping you with your parenting plan and child custody and all of that stuff. You also mentioned that your children are very young. And so this is where I think you can do a really good job of continuing to form a good attachment with them, have a good bond with them, be a stable parent, focus on your parenting and the type parent that you want to be and allow them to have their childhood and if and when you need to intervene and do something about some of the influence. Let's say if your mother-in-law does start speaking negatively about you to them and it gets back to you, that is a moment when you can intervene with your child and also with the co-parent and talk about how you can protect your child

from this. I like to try to keep the children at the center of this and have them be the priority, which means that not putting the problems of your divorce onto them in ways that they cannot handle or understand is really important. And so hopefully, even though you're getting divorced, you and your child's other parent can hold that goal in the same like high regard and say we want to make sure that this goes well for the kids and that they get caught up in as little of this as possible. We were talking about this on Michelle's podcast that it is so important for you to focus on what you can control in your parenting journey and know that as your children grow up and become adults, they will see and remember the type of parent that you were and the ways that

you showed up with them and they will have that bond with you. And if they love you and they care about you and they have a good relationship with you, you have to trust that that is going to outperform a lot of this other type of manipulative intervention from a grandparent, etc. And I really, really hope that this grandmother, this mother-in-law wants to do what's best for the kids and attacking a child's mother who is being a good mother is not protection. It's not kind. It's not being a good grandparent. It's just wrong and it's bad for the kids. The kids having a good attachment to their mother is very, very important. And grandparents who try to get in the way of healthy relationships between their moms and kids are not doing what's in the best interest of the children.

Obviously, a different scenario if that mother is being abusive, using substances around the kids is exposing them to violence, but that doesn't seem like that is the case in this situation at all. I think that it's very important for this caller to find outlets just for herself. So I'm really glad that you're listening to this show, coming to groups like the ones that we have at Calling Home. listening to other books or podcasts about co-parenting, having friends that you can talk to about this, your own family members, a therapist, all of that can really, really help you

not put this on your kids and be able to stay well regulated for your children. Something that Michelle said when we were recording her podcast episode that really stood out to me was that kids really just need one solid, trusted, loving adult. to succeed. And if they can have even just one, it has a tremendous impact on them. And so I want you to remember that in the face of all these other influences, you still have a lot of power and a lot of influence. And don't diminish that. Don't say that because you're up against this huge force that you can't give that to your kids. And remember to take care of yourself because it's so hard to do that and take care of your kids and be going through all of this.

the same time. And I know that's easier said than done, especially if you don't have the support and the ability to get help with your very young children. But this is a really hard thing to be going through. So I thank you so much for calling in. And I hope that that response was helpful for anyone that might be going through something similar. We also have a lot of really good in-law and grandparent content, both on the podcast and on our website. If you go to callinghome. and search grandparent or in-laws, you're going to get a ton of resources we've focused on grandparents and we focused on in-laws for an entire month to each of them. So there are at least four scripts, videos, articles, and worksheets up there for you to use. I also know I have

several podcast episodes if you type in on whatever podcast player you use, calling home grandparents, calling home in-laws, all of those will show up. And I think that would be super helpful as well. Thank you again so much for listening. A reminder that you can call and leave me a voicemail. You can email me a voice note to Whitney at callinghome.com. And you can join the Family Cycle Breakers Club at calling home.com to get access to unlimited groups run by licensed therapist and new content and resources delivered to your inbox every Monday as well as our entire content and force library.

If there's anything that you'd like to hear on this podcast, let me know. And as always, I would really appreciate if you could share this episode with someone who needs it, subscribe to the podcast, leave us a review or a comment. That's what helps keep the show going and keeps it free for all of you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you and have a great list of your time. The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services.

It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship between you and Collingholm or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Holmes Terms of Service linked in the show notes below.