CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Q&A: My MIL Is Passive Aggressive And No One Else Notices

Episode Date: April 3, 2025

Hi! We're back with two caller questions this week. Caller one is a passive-aggressive MIL and caller 2 is concerned about having her family at her wedding. I also share my three little epiphanies for the week about giving grace, the most googled question about estrangement, and Chappell Roan. Join The Family Cyclebreakers Club: www.callinghome.co/join Have a question for Whitney? Call in and leave a voicemail for the show at 866-225-5466. Follow Whitney on Instagram: www.instagram.com/sitwithwhit Subscribe to Whitney's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@whitneygoodmanlmft Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome back to the Calling Home podcast. I'm your host Whitney Goodman. I am excited to be here again for a Q&A episode. But before we get to those caller questions and my three little epiphanies for the week, I wanted to let you know that this month we are starting a new topic at Calling Home. And it is going to begin on Monday, April 7th. I appreciate you tuning into this podcast so much. And I know that many adults struggle with uncertainty about becoming a parent after experiencing childhood trauma. Our program this month provides comprehensive support, offering tools and resources to help you make informed decisions about parenthood while navigating your own triggers. You can visit our website at callinghome.co for resources and information and then join the Family Cycle Breakers Club for access to our community. After you join, you can sign up for our weekly groups to receive ongoing support and

guidance. Without this support, you may continue to feel confused and overwhelmed about parenting, lack the confidence, and risk repeating negative patterns from your own childhood. Choosing to join us means empowering yourself with the tools to build a healthy family environment where you and your children can thrive without the rate of past trauma. Join our weekly groups today and take the first step towards feeling confident in your parenting decisions. All right, let's go ahead and dive in to my three epiphanies this week. The first thing that caught my eye this week was the clip that is going viral with Chapel Rowan, who actually she shared one of my posts a couple weeks ago and I got like, I don't know,

130 million impressions on my Instagram. It was pretty crazy. But then seeing this clip going around is fascinating. So she was a guest on the Call Her Daddy podcast and full disclosure. I have not listened to the full episodes. I've only seen the clip, but a lot of parents are sharing it. Because in this clip, she talks about how she doesn't know any parents, her age, which I think she's like 27, who are not miserable. And she goes on to talk about like how they're in hell and they hate it and it's terrible. And it's really interesting the timing of this because I just had a podcast episode come out with Amanda White who does the fence sitter substack and she talks a lot about the decision to have children. And that came out on April 1st. If you haven't

listened to that, it was this week, go back to the Tuesday episode. But we talk a little bit about this and how people talk about decisions that are really, really difficult. And like, these big life changes from the outside and only seeing snippets of it and how like misinformed that can be and how it really makes you view a situation differently based on like what you're seeing. And so I think sometimes I've noticed this with my own friends who have children and those who don't and you guys know that I have a parent and that I notice that parents do this thing where like we're talking about parenthood in this way that I think from a onlooker who doesn't have children, it feels like really negative and really bad and it feels

really different that it does when you're in it. And so I read these comments and there's all these people being like, yeah, listen to every parent talk about being a parent. They're effing miserable. They hate it. And then they start, you know, to talk about how much they love to be a mom. And if you don't have children, you know, I hate to say it's like, oh, you won't understand. but I think it's just this really weird thing that like, it's like anything in life that is super, super challenging, there's good and bad to it. And sometimes when you're around other parents, you definitely get sucked into just talking about like funny and difficult and challenging moments in this way that I think for an onlooker would feel very negative. And like you were

kind of caught in hell that it doesn't actually feel like that, I think. I don't know. There's a creator that I follow that does like celebrity memoir book reviews. I think it's called Celebrity Memoir Book Club. Sorry, I'm rambling here about this. But she had a really good take on this that Chapel Rowan has talked in the past about how she despises parts of being like a pop star and how horrible the media is and how, you know, it's extremely difficult. Yet she also keeps doing it and she loves it and it's incredibly rewarding and she gets all these benefits from it. And that she's making this comparison that like parenting can also be seen this way. And I think we were fed this narrative for so long that parenting is only upside. It's all amazing and

wonderful and positive. And if you complain about it, then you're a bad person and you're doing something wrong and you clearly don't love your children. And now we've kind of swung the pendulum to the other side that it's very difficult for people to have nuanced conversations about parenting that include both positive and negative because it's either like toxic positive, or it's just so overwhelmingly negative. But I think that this creator was spot on that like anything meaningful in life can feel that way. And at the same time, if you don't want to have kids, if you're not up for it, if it doesn't

feel like a good idea to you, if it's not what you want for your life, I am in full support of that. And so I think if you are connecting with any of this or you're on the fence about having kids, definitely go back and listen to that episode that we recorded because it's really funny how it really ties in with this clip that is going. viral. The second thing I wanted to talk about this week was the concept of giving grace. This is a comment that I see all the time, you know, in any community or work that is discussing estrangement, you are going to see people saying, come on, give grace, show them grace. Can't we all

just give each other grace? And I find this so interesting. And I really had to look up the definition of like what giving grace actually means to a lot of people. And it means giving forgiveness, understanding, allowing someone to make mistakes and understanding that people are human. And I totally get that on board for that, right? I think we're all human. We all make mistakes, myself included. I think the thing that we're missing here is that giving grace doesn't just mean I give you grace and we go back to how things were. There's also this thing known as, as a grace period, right? And a grace period is typically used by, like, financial institutions, right? So it's a specific time after a due date where you can fulfill a financial commitment or

another type of commitment without incurring penalties or consequences like late fees or interest. And it's really like a buffer zone, right, for people to fulfill obligations that they promised. And so giving grace is not just this thing of. like, okay, I give you grace and now we go back to how we were and nothing changes. And I think that's what's missing here is that a lot of people are giving grace and then nothing is being done in that grace period. So then the next time that you need grace, people don't really want to give more of it because they've already done it so many times. And so there is this understanding, of course, that people make mistakes and we are allowed to give people room to

repair and do something about it. But if they're never doing that, sometimes your grace runs out. And my third thing this week is I use like Google search tools to figure out what people are searching for in the topics that I cover. And one of the most Googled questions about estrangement is why does God allow family estrangement? And I found this to be so fascinating because I am not tying estrangement to any particular religious beliefs or religious sect. But I think that when you have the mindset of thinking, why does God allow this? It sort of puts you in a position of being passive, right? Like, this isn't really something that I can control, this is something that God is allowing and permitting and why is he doing that?

And I know that there are people who are going to have different beliefs about a God's ability to influence people than me. But this to me speaks to that passive nature that can come up in these situations where instead of thinking about what did I do to cause the estrangement, what behaviors led to this? Where are the breakdowns of communication in our relationship? It's more of a thought of why is this happening because of this larger force. And so I don't know if that connects to any of your estrangement situations, but I thought that was really interesting that that might be the first place that people would go when thinking about how this happened in their families. All right, let's go ahead and get to that first caller.

Hi, Whitney. I'm calling in because I'm having an issue with my mother-in-law. It's been going on for about five years now. It's gotten worse as we've gotten married, having a kid. And I always knew that the issues were bad, but I feel like every state, of our life that we've completed, we'll call, it's gotten worse. She has no respect for me at all, and it's very obvious. But, you know, I've listened to all of your other podcasts about mother-in-laws and things

like that, and, you know, the most recent one you did was talking about how, you know, the mother-in-law yelled at the daughter-in-law. And the problem I'm having is, you know, she does these subtle things. Everything is so subtle that it's like I only see it. You know, the other daughters, they see it as well, but everyone's afraid to stand up to her. And I have. I've had multiple sit-down conversations with her. I've had phone calls with her.

I have to accept that. I know she's not going to change and I'm not looking for her to change, but at the end of the day I just don't know what to do anymore I'm at a loss and sometimes I feel like I'm going crazy because the things that go on are so subtle but they're so big

like when I say subtle it's not but to anyone else you know some people just like oh maybe you're making a big deal out of it maybe you know give her the benefit of the dough you know like and I I'm trying to leave space for that but I'm not too sure how to go about this my husband and I we have a therapist that we see and we're actively working and you know we get five steps forward and then some days we're two steps back so maybe maybe my

problem is with my husband you know like that one podcast you know it's not a problem with your mother-in-law is a problem with your husband, but I don't know what else to do before I, you know, can't do this much longer. You know, my sons are young, but I know that I can't, I can't force them into this life. So if you have anything, any type of advice or, you know, listening to this, you've heard this before or anything, that would be really appreciated. Thanks so much for your time and thank you for everything that you do. Thank you so much for calling it. And I really appreciate you listening to the podcast. And I'm glad that those episodes have been helpful to you. But it does seem like you're in a unique but also very common dynamic here. There are certainly people who have the power to be cruel and manipulative and passive aggressive under the radar. And they can often continue their behavior because they are not engaging in some of the of these really overt ways of being harmful that include yelling and screaming and throwing things.

And so there's a lot of like deniability there. Like I'm not doing that. I'm not causing any problems. And I'm, you know, I'm going to take your word that that's what's happening here. Right. And it sounds like you have done all the things that you need to do in order to try to repair this relationship. with her or improve it. So thinking about like, you know, you mentioned that you sat down with her, that you've had conversations, that you're going to therapy with your husband, etc. I think that

I have very little information here, but something is telling me to sort of give you all some information on covert narcissism, that sometimes this can be a situation where that is at play and it's hard to identify, and this can be a person that in the family has been able to gain a lot of power and control as a result of like their symptoms and their behavior. So covert narcissists really are a lot more subtle, passive aggressive. They're hypersensitive and insecure. They don't present as like grandiose or big as as narcissists do in typically in like, popular culture and the way that we see them being depicted. They're usually more manipulative through guilt-tripping, withholding information, being passive-aggressive. They are really sensitive and might get super defensive or sulk when they have been slighted or upset. They really crave admiration, but they have a very fragile sense of self and are really insecure. And they struggle to understand the feelings of others. It's very hard for them to put themselves in someone

else's shoes. And, you know, I mentioned, like, they'll use emotional blackmail, guilt, pity, things like that to control. And it's likely that, like you said, you know, your sister-in-law, the other people in the family are aware of this person's behavior and they see it, but they know what happens when you rock the boat. And typically an outsider, like an in-law, has a much easier time pointing out the behavior and taking the risk of there being a fallout because of the labeling of that behavior because you were not raised by these people. You're not connected to them in the same way. It doesn't feel as threatening or overwhelming. And so they might be more likely to just continue with the status quo because they know that if they bring this up or they've brought it up

before, that they're going to get the silent treatment or pushback or they're, you know, they're going to become a target. And so I don't know that this is necessarily what's going on with your mother-in-law, but it sounds in line with that type of situation and someone who maybe isn't necessarily a narcissist, but could also be struggling with a personality disorder. a really fragile sense of self. There's so many different labels that could fit that type of profile, right? That being said, my next point and like piece of advice for anyone in this position is that the understanding of what is going on with them, whether you give that a diagnostic label, you understand the symptoms, only gets you so far. It can give you this clarity of like,

okay it's not me like this is really happening i see it i believe it it's real even if no one else is choosing to do anything about it and i have to decide how i am now going to interact with that behavior and i know that it's easy in these situations to be very fearful about the future you know of like what are my kids aren't going to tolerate this forever how are they going to deal with it i i want you to try to take that off the table because you're not there yet. And when that comes, your kids will have the skills to navigate that situation because of how you raised them and how you modeled that behavior. So right now, this is more about the situation between you and your husband and you and your mother-in-law.

And so when you think about what am I actually willing to tolerate and deal with and put myself in the line of fire for for the rest of my marriage what's important to my partner that's where I would start and it can almost just be like to quote the Mel Robbins theory of like up to the point of her doing harmful things to you allowing her just to be who she is and you can almost like create a game with yourself of like oh that's you know I don't know let's call her Jane that's Jane being Jane. Oh, she said that snarky thing under her breath or she's getting offended. You know, I did an interview with Dr. Romney about narcissism in families. And she talked about this, how she had a client that would go to Thanksgiving and play like narcissist bingo.

And, you know, whenever her family member would do something, she'd be like, oh, there's another thing. And once she had three things on the list, she'd say, okay, now it's time for me to go. And I think that this is where you can set boundaries for yourself around what family events am I comfortable going to. How long can I be there? How often can I talk to this person? Are there certain things that if she does, I am going to leave and not interact with her? Because you don't want this to become such an issue that it drives a wedge between you and your spouse or that it makes it impossible for you to have any interactions. you know, with your family. And you can have conversations with your children when they're old enough about appropriate behavior and how we act around each other and how we treat each other. And that can even be a good, like, learning example as well. But the last thing I want to say to anybody in this position is that you can kind of make yourself go crazy trying to figure out, is this real? Is this actually happening. Am I going crazy? And when you get in a position like that, you have to remind

yourself that, like, I've amassed enough evidence here. I know what's going on. This is real. I've experienced it. I've seen how she treats me. Even if the rest of the people in the family don't want to wake up to that and be aware of it, it doesn't mean that it's not happening. And you can do everything in your power to show up respect for. and understand and show empathy and communicate in a healthy way. And that doesn't mean that everyone else is going to get on board. And that's, I think that's really like the hardest part about all of this. It would be a lot easier to deal with if everyone around you was like, yeah, I know she is being just not nice. And unfortunately, that's often not the case because

everyone has their own reasons for using self-protection in these situations. I hope that that was helpful. Thank you so much for calling in and for listening to the podcast. And I wish you all the best. All right. Let's go ahead and get to that next caller. Hey, Whitney. My name is Jana. First all, I'm a huge fan. Love your show. Love the podcast. It's helped me so much with my therapy journey. I love it. So my question for you is, I'm getting married this summer. And my fiance's family is fantastic. But, you know, my family, of course, we have lots of issues. Well, crazy. BPD, trauma, stress, depression. It's just a hot mess. And my family is just beefing constantly all the time. And I'm just a little bit worried about when everybody gets

together in the room. And yeah, I just want to know what can I do to help get me into my best mindset for my special day? Because I want to focus on myself and how do I let go of my family stressed, including my estranged sister, who's not in the bridal party? Hmm, tea. Anyways, thanks, Whitney. You're amazing. Take care. Thank you so much for calling in and for listening to the podcast.

I appreciate it. I so wish that you could have been in our group that we had at calling home on Thursday evening because we talked so much about weddings. And so this is kind of fate that I'm listening to this. voicemail today. So a couple of things. I have a rule and something that I say a lot on this podcast and in therapy is that you should not expect people to act differently on holidays at events or in a crisis. If anything, you should expect them to be worse. And I think a lot of the time we have this fantasy that on our wedding day, our family is going to show up and they're going to

act normal and great. And a lot of the time, that doesn't come true. Now, there are certainly situations where people can come and they can keep it together, right? They can act calm and not say anything crazy, but they might not be like super loving or engaged or they're not going to measure up to be fantasy of what you wish they were going to be. It seems like this caller has a pretty good understanding of like what her parents and her family can and cannot offer and you're thinking more about like your mindset. And so then I think that's really where it starts is like the day is about me and what I want and me having a good time. And I am not going to let my family get in the way of that. If they decide to act like themselves, I already know about that.

I've already lived through it. I know what that includes. I know that my partner. I know that my partner wants to be with me and is not concerned about their behavior, isn't judging me based on their behavior. And so I get to enjoy my day no matter how my family acts. And if I am choosing to have some of my family or all of my family there, then that means I am understanding that like there might be some things that come up and I don't have to fix it. I don't even have to really pay attention to it or notice it. And I can almost like, hope for the best, prepare for the worst and also set limits for yourself, that like you're not going to be hypervigilantly monitoring everybody's moods or what they're doing, how they're acting,

who they're talking to, that the day is going to be about you and your partner and they are there to celebrate you. And they can do that within their limits. And it's really just on you to be like enjoying your day and say hello to them be kind include them you invited them they are getting the same treatment as every other guest that is there that is a meaningful person to you and i would try to really de-center them and their behavior from your experience that day and i think you'll be surprised that when you do that i hope that it makes it much easier for them to just become a part of your day instead of something that you are thinking about the most or worrying about the most because that is definitely going to take away from you

enjoying yourself and having a good time. Thank you again for calling in and I hope that that helps. If you enjoy this podcast and you are ready to take your work to the next level and actually make some changes in your life, we have the resources for you at Calling Home. This month, we are focusing on navigating parenthood after childhood trauma. We know the anxiety is clouding your decisions, and we are here to help. Our support groups, worksheets, and expert-led resources equip you to face your fears head-on. Together, we will empower you to create a nurturing environment for your family

so you can break cycles of trauma and foster last. change in your life and the lives of your children. Envision a future where you are confident in your choices, knowing you are equipped to parent with love and intention. To join, visit our website at callinghome.co, join the family cyclebreakers club to access our community, and then sign up for unlimited groups every month to receive ongoing support and guidance. Thank you all so much for listening to the podcast today.

I look forward to seeing you again next week on Tuesday. Bye. Thank you so much to everyone that called in this week and asked questions. I love being able to help you with these family situations and hopefully help you find a way to better navigate them with your adult family relationships. You can always call and leave me a voicemail and I may pick your question for an upcoming Thursday episode of of the Calling Home Podcast. Just call 866-225-5-466 and leave me a voicemail. I do these episodes every Thursday and I love being able to get to help each and every one of you with your family relationships. If you're ready to work on your adult family relationships outside of this podcast and take what you've learned to the next level, we do have the Calling Home community.

You can join us for weekly groups and watch videos. Take courses, get access to worksheets, and more. And those groups are run by me so we can actually meet. And you just need to go to www.callinghome.com and join the Family Cycle Breakers Club. Thanks, and I will see you all on Tuesday for another episode. The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services. It is is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist patient or other treatment relationship between you and Calling Home or Whitney Goodman.

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