CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Q&A: RHOSLC Therapy Scene, Bethenny Frankel on Call Her Daddy, and Estranged Parents Who Post Online

Episode Date: January 8, 2026

In the first Q&A of the new year, Whitney covers: the therapy session between Britani and her daughter on Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, Bethenny Frankel's discussion of estrangement on Call Her Daddy, an important article by Dr. Emma Katz about abusive men explaining their incentives for perpetuating abuse, and a listener's question about whether to reconnect with an estranged mother who's now posting relationship advice on social media. Whitney Goodman is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and the founder of Calling Home, a membership community that helps people navigate complex family dynamics and break harmful cycles. Have a question for Whitney? Send a voice memo or email to [e-mail] Join the Family Cyclebreakers Club⁠⁠ Follow Whitney on Instagram | sitwithwhit Follow Whitney on YouTube | @whitneygoodmanlmft ⁠⁠Order Whitney’s book, Toxic Positivity Learn more about ad choices. Visit podcast.choices.com/adchoices This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice. 1:08 RHOSLC therapy scene 06:08 Bethenny Frankel on Call Her Daddy 16:47 Dr. Emma Katz Substack article 25:41 Listener question: Mom is now a relationship coach posting online Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome back to the Calling Home podcast. Today we have our first Q&A episode of the new year. Before we get into those caller questions, I am going to break down a couple of things I want to talk about today. So one is an episode of The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City from November 25th. I know I'm getting to this one late, but I think there's some good stuff in there to talk about. I also want to talk about the Bethany Frankel episode on Call Her Daddy. I did a video on this a couple of weeks back, but want to talk about about that here as well, as well as this article by Dr. Emma Katz from her substack. And then I'll be answering a caller question. So let's go ahead and dive in to the episode. There are so many scenes on the Real Housewives lately, especially of Salt Lake City, that speak to dysfunctional family dynamics and especially adult child and parent estrangement. And if you are in my Instagram, like group chat, whatever they're called that's about pop culture, TV, and psychology. You've seen me talking about this.

You can always go to my page on Instagram at Sit With Wit and join that. But there is a scene in this episode where Brittany and her daughter, who she has been estranged from, go to therapy together. And I think it's really interesting that they are showing this. And the daughter basically goes on to say that, you know, her mom became more. more of a mom to the step siblings for her new husband's approval. And we've heard Brittany talking about this that she felt like she just really like was trying to be a good wife to her husband and then she would like get back to

mothering. And the daughter says like we didn't talk for a while because she had moved in with her father and she spent seven years of neglecting her children. That's what her daughter says. the daughter goes on to say, I feel like we have a connection. And even though you haven't made the best decisions, I still want to have a relationship with you. But my brain is telling me I'm going to get hurt. And this is where Brittany says, you know, I wish there was a way that I could show my kids that I really want to try. And I think there is a way. And I think in some ways she's doing that by going to

therapy with her kids, having these conversations with them, you know, saying that she wants to be accountable, apologizing. But the real work is, of course, going to happen in the big changes that she makes in how she prioritizes men over her children. Because I think that has been the longest standing, most challenging pattern. Right. And Brittany really just is saying, like, I just want you to have what you need. And I think both of them, the therapist, is pointing this out feel very undeserving and unlovable and they both kind of have this shared belief that like if they get close to people, someone is just going to leave again and they're going to be alone. And I thought it was good here, you know, that this therapist tries to talk

to the mother to Brittany about like if she has forgiven herself. And Britney talks about her guilt and remorse and how she wishes that she did things better. And this is good for her daughter to hear. I know it's painful, you know, for Britney and watching her, like, it's like, okay, this mother has a lot of pain. And I hope that she continues to attend to that on her own and her own work away from her daughter. But the daughter demonstrates here how reassuring it is that her mother realizes what she did was wrong and that she has some guilt. And she even says, you know, to hear her take accountability makes me feel better. And so I thought this was just like a good scene. You know, when they film these scenes with therapists in therapy, I imagine that it's

very much edited. And like, I don't even know how many times they've seen these therapists or if the therapist actually knows them. And like it's hard to judge what's going on here. But I think that these little like snippets that we saw are a good example of what it can look like when an adult child and their parent are kind of navigating this type of therapy together and when a mother is starting to show some remorse, accountability and a desire to make things better and the adult child is feeling like they can express themselves safely in those moments and their parent is going to hear them. Now there's another storyline happening. in this show and in this episode. And I feel that this person is having like their biggest

redemption arc yet. And that is Bronwyn's mother, who you have heard me talk about in other episodes where there was that very, very sad scene between the two of them, you know, disgusting the past and Bronwyn's pregnancy and getting kicked out of college and all that stuff. But in this moment, we see three generations of women. And her mom is really showing some vulnerability. And the three generations, I think, are realizing that they have a connection. And it seems like for Braun, when she's having this really nice experience of caring for her mother and how caring for both her parents, as they've been dealing with illness and tragedy and getting older, has really changed the dynamic.

And I think we're seeing her mother softening here and even seeing a little bit of what makes Bronwyn Bronwyn and how each of these women see the world differently, you know, including like the granddaughter and then Bronwyn and then Bronwyn's mother. Like they all have such different perspectives on being a woman and family and feelings and what this looks like. And it was just really interesting to see the three of them together. So I would definitely recommend going and checking that out if you're interested in some of those intergenerational dynamics. Now let's talk about the episode between Bethany Frankel. and Alex Cooper on Call Her Daddy.

I don't listen to this podcast normally, but I saw a bunch of clips of it. And I was like, wow, they're talking a lot about mother-daughter relationships and estrangement. So I gave it a listen. And there were quite a few good gems in here. Now, I know that Bethany Frankel is a polarizing figure, guys. Like, if you talk about her on the internet, you are going to get some pushback. And I understand that she is not a perfect victim.

There are no perfect victims in these scenarios. but she did say some pretty good things in this episode. So let's look at it from that perspective. Bethany talks about her relationship with her mother, who she did become estranged from later on in her life. And she talks about around the estrangement and her mother's passing, how she had to call people and ask for validation, basically, from them of like, was it that bad?

Did you see what I saw? Because she ultimately felt like, was I exaggerating? was my mother really as bad as I felt like she was and how important it was for her to get that validation from friends, family, therapists, and how that really helped her move forward. And so I think that's an important thing for all of you to remember is that like it's okay to get that validation sometimes, especially in a world where we are constantly told like, but it's your mom, but it's your sister, whoever it is that you're, you're having to separate from like you need to get validation from people who get it and people who saw it.

And she mentions this idea of like, you know, don't speak ill of the dead, sure, but also I am a survivor of this and I need some help seeing things clearly for what they were. And they talk about how you often feel relief and maybe you find some forgiveness, but that it doesn't mean that everything that happened to you was okay. And I thought that Alex Cooper, the host, did a great job in this moment of really underscoring how we treat family relationships in such a different manner, and we tend to be more critical and judgmental of people who cannot make them work, but that a lot of these people were enduring situations, you know, that we're not okay and certainly not okay for a parent to be doing.

And Alex brings up that Bethany has been very much a cycle breaker in a lot of ways. And again, not perfect. None of us are when we are breaking cycles, but that she is. seeming to make sure that she is giving her daughter a very different childhood from what she endured. And I thought that it was great here that Bethany brought up, you know, the idea that the pendulum has swung very far in the opposite direction from her own childhood. And then she had to learn how to validate her daughter because of what she went through as a child. And there were a lot of things that her daughter was experiencing that she might have considered to be

trivial because she was comparing them to her own childhood experiences, which are on the extreme end, right, of what she was exposed to in terms of neglect being around abusive people, being in situations that involve drugs and alcohol that kids should not have been in and what she saw her mother endure. And she says, you know, it doesn't invalidate what she's going through just because my life was more challenging. And I think that this is such a hard and important lesson for us to learn as parents is that if you had a really hard childhood, your kid wasn't there. They didn't experience it. Yes, there are some lessons and things that they can learn, but those things need to be developmentally appropriate and not

you utilizing them as a weapon to dismiss every single thing that they're experiencing because it doesn't measure up to what you went through. Alex goes on to ask her, you know, how did you survive and cope as a child. And Bethany talks about how she was very analytical and that she was always with adults that were doing like unsavory things. And the only friend she had was her mind and that she very much lived in her own head and compartmentalized. And that was a way that she dealt with things. And I think seeing how she is as an adult, this makes a lot of sense. And this is a trait that can actually make you highly successful in a lot of areas. of life and it can also be difficult in others when it comes to connecting,

handling your emotions, that it's interesting to see how these types of coping skills can play out in adulthood. The other thing that's very interesting about Bethany's story is that she was raised by a mother who was addicted to substances and had a very severe eating disorder. And Bethany's mother took her to weight lock clinics and she was using laxatives and she had bulimia her entire life. And she watched her mother go through this. And I think this is a lot of people's criticisms of Bethany is that she has also promoted

diet culture and talked a lot about how to eat and how to stay skinny and supermodel snacks. And, you know, her brand was called Skinny Girl. And I think this is where we have to remember that we can't have all this knowledge and understanding for how people are victimized. and then if they don't turn around and perfectly solve every single thing, we villainize them. And so some people are going to break 10 cycles and they're going to continue two or three of them or they're only going to get a little better at those. And it doesn't mean that you are beyond reproach or you can't be questioned. But it's also, I think, a really good practice of looking

at people holistically, where they've come from, what they've been able to change, and seeing how far they've come maybe from the baseline of what they were exposed to. Now, that doesn't mean we have to support them, endorse what they're doing, but it does help, I think, to see these things in context and also give yourself a little bit of permission to be like everyone is a work in progress and learning and hopefully growing and evolving each day. And sometimes we might see them when they are still trapped in a cycle or repeating a pattern that we don't necessarily agree with or think is good. And so we don't need to buy those products and endorse it or say that someone is fully healed, but that a lot of us are still reacting to the things that we were exposed to

and maybe making mistakes along the way. And what we can hope for is that we make the least damaging mistakes along the way, especially in comparison to the mistakes that we may be endured or that our families perpetuated. Bethany also talks about her daughter wanting to meet her estranged mother. And I thought this was really interesting because she says, you know, that her daughter got to experience her mother how she actually was and see her for what she was. And in some ways, that was very hard, but it was also valuable. And Bethany recounts a time where she was on the phone with her mother and her mother said

something like, I think I'm going to die. I can't effing stand you. And her daughter heard that. And her mother was also visibly extremely thin, still dealing with an eating disorder and would speak about her weight around her daughter and that everything she said was like a landmine around her daughter. And Bethany says, you know, it was impossible not to cut her off. She was so vicious, so scathing. Like if you think that I am, you know, kind of like rough and a course, person, I'm a stuffed animal compared to her. And I think Bethany can be perceived as being very gruff or having quote unquote, like more of like a masculine type of energy to her. You can tell that she's had to build up a lot of defenses because of the life that she's lived. And I think that

she really went on to realize that like she had to cut her off and that it wasn't easy, but it had to be this way. And so, you know, they talk about how it doesn't matter if it's your family or your friends. Like, you just cannot have people in your life like that. And I thought that Alex Cooper did a really good job in this moment of kind of validating, again, how much harder it is with family and that the boundaries with family are so much easier to cross and they can be so much harder to maintain and that to have that, that strength, you know, to do that, especially with a daughter and going through a divorce

is very, very hard. And I think you can hear kind of Bethany trying to give this grandmother relationship to her daughter and then ultimately deciding that this is so unhealthy that actually the most motherly and protective thing I can do is to not allow this person, you know, to be in her life. The other thing that she mentioned that I think really illustrates how long-lasting a parents' impact, especially negative impact, can be on us, is that Bethany's mother told her, this is Bethany's recounting, that she had got a Disney contract that Bethany did, and that her mother turned it down because she thought that Bethany wouldn't want to do it. And Bethany recalls this as like the reason why she wanted to be an actress and kind of

what drove her to want to be a performer or be out in the open. And I think it's interesting to look at her. her career path and what she's done in the context of this memory because she never knew if that was true and her mother denied it because she didn't want her to have that success or if she made it up and she told her that to hurt her. She really never got any confirmation about the validity of this story and it's this blip in her relationship with her mother in the context of all the other things, but it had such a resounding impact that it sort of dictated like what she wanted to do with her life, where she chose to go. And it had a lot of an impact on her. So if you'd like

to go listen to that episode, it's on Call Her Daddy with Bethany Frankel. And I think there's some good gems in there for anyone that is trying to navigate estrangement from a parent or grew up with a parent who was addicted to substances or had an eating disorder and who is also parenting a child now. Now let's talk about this substack by Dr. Emma Katz. I recorded a video on this a couple weeks ago and it got a lot of traction. So I wanted to dive a little bit deeper into this. I subscribe to Dr. Katz's substack and it is behind a paywall. So I shared some of the findings here and then you all can absolutely go and read more about this. But I thought this article was so interesting. She writes a lot of interesting stuff. I read her.

emails every time they come out. But I think that we can apply this finding to different types of family relationships. And she does talk about how these people, these men do this to their children as well. So the article and the findings that she talks about are about how domestically violent men describe the benefits of abusing women and children. And this is how abusers describe the advantages they get from being abusive in their own words. In this article, she talks about how for victims and survivors of domestic violence and abuse, they're constantly asking the question about why their abuser did what they did. And if your parent was your abuser or a family member, this is a question that we talk about

a lot. Why did they do this to me? What was so wrong with me that they felt like they needed to punish me in this way or to do this? And we often wonder, you know, was this behavior conscious or an accident? or a result of, you know, their own childhood trauma and experiences and conditioning. And we think that maybe it's excusable, quote, unquote, if it's a mistake. So this is what they found here, that men usually use violence and abuse against women and

children because it is functional for them to do so. And I know this seems obvious. But I don't think that I've heard it articulated in this way that men were describing it. themselves. So it serves a function in their lives and it brings them benefits. Yes, obviously, but they can name those benefits and describe them in depth. It's not like this unconscious benefit that is being fulfilled by their actions that they seem kind of be trapped in this cycle. And if we could just help them escape, they would understand that there are better ways to live and to do this. A lot of this rests on the belief that they actually are

superior to the women and children in their lives. They deserve to control them. They should have authority and dominance over them. And so they need to do things in order to create that culture in their families. And so when you have the belief that that is what you are supposed to create, you are going to find ways to create those ends, right? So she talks about this person named Chuck Derry, who was an American anti-domestic violence campaigner that was based in Minnesota. And he ran these court-mandated groups for men who were domestically abusing their wives. And this was back in like the 80s and 90s. And he was trying to help these men express their emotions.

And I think this is something that a lot of therapists run into that we feel like if we could just get people to be better at naming and labeling and expressing their emotions, they would be less abusive because they would be more in touch with how they feel and be better able to articulate those feelings and describe them and have conversations. And he thought that if people learned this, they would be better husbands. But this was ultimately a failed experiment for Derry because he was trying to teach these men better interpersonal skills. So how to talk to their wives better, how to communicate more effectively.

Because if they had those skills, they could understand their emotions, process them, and communicate, they would then use less violence, make sense. right? I can understand why someone would take this path. Now, every week he did this. He taught them these skills and then sent them home to their wives and their families to practice. But the men would come back each week to talk about their progress. Remember, these are court mandated attendees. And they would tell the facilitator of these groups that it wasn't working because they were trying to use their interpersonal skills to get their wife to do exactly what they wanted. Again, that belief that as the husband, this is what I am supposed to get my wife to do,

supposed to assert control over her so that she will do X, Y, and Z. They wanted them, their wives to do housework in a certain way, to parent in a certain way, to not see their friends, not spend money, et cetera. And they told Derry, like, this way that you're teaching me to communicate, it's not working. My wife isn't complying. And so in the end, I still have to be abusive and they would still go on to abuse their wives because those interpersonal and emotion regulation skills were not getting them the result that they actually wanted. So Derry had this realization that like these men didn't have a problem with communicating. The problem was that they wanted extreme control over their

wives and families and they were doing what they needed to do to get that. and he realized that he was teaching these men personal skills that they were just using in an attempt to control the women and children in their lives more effectively. They were openly admitting that they needed the abuse to get what they wanted because the abuse was a productive way of getting those needs met. It was functional for them. And it gave them something that they were not willing to let go of. And so no amount of interpersonal skills or emotional expression was going to change that because it was a means to an end for them. So Derry decided to engage in this exercise with them. And he wanted to ask them,

what benefits do you get from abusing your wives and children and from doing this in your homes? And I think he was surprised or, you know, Dr. Katz talks about his level of surprise at how quickly the conversation started flowing and the reasons that they gave. And, how explicit they were. And he's writing it on the board, and then he realizes as he's looking at this list, like, why would they give this up? And they did have a couple of reasons,

you know, that Dr. Katz goes on to talk about about why they should not keep doing this, like some of the consequences. But the benefits far outweighed the consequences for these people. And Dr. Katz points out in this article, you know, that we try to understand often why people are abusive from the lens of understanding them more. So they have childhood trauma.

They don't know what they're doing. But this is really another eye-opening way of looking at it. And I'm going to give you some of the reasons for their behavior in their own words. But if you subscribe to Dr. Emma Katz's substack, she breaks these down in a really cohesive way of dividing them up into these pillars. And it's a great thing for you all to look at. And I think she should be compensated for that work. But some of them are that, you know, I can convince her that she's.

screwing up, that she's not attractive, get her to admit it's her fault. There's also the domain of isolation and servitude, so I can disconnect women from their support network. It makes them less able to resist. I can own a woman as a slave-like figure. They also talked a lot about money, so gaining financial power above women, making her scared so that she won't spend money. I get the money if she works. I can get her money. I have power. I am the king of the castle. I get to know everything. I feel superior. And I think this is a big one. I get freedom from the relationship as a partnership. I can use money for drugs. I don't have to change for her. I can buy what I want. Take time for myself. I don't have to help out. I don't have to

listen to complaints. No compromise equals more freedom. I don't have to get up, take out the garbage, etc. What Dr. Katz points out here that I think is really on the nose is that these men want to have everything. They want to have women and children, not as partners, but as possessions, without having to have any of the commitment, responsibility, and being able to do whatever they want. And this is how they found a way to get those needs met. You can read more about this on Substack, and that is Dr. Emma Katz, K-A-T-Z, on Substack. All right, now let's go ahead and get to that caller question. This question was sent to me via email, so I am going to read it to you, and then we will

dive in and answer it. Hi, Whitney, your podcast has been life-changing and made me feel not so alone, so thank you. I have been estranged slash no contact with my mother for a little over two years. This is the second time we've gone no contact with the long. longest we've been without any communication. I made the decision to cease communication after she told me that I was no longer her daughter if I got engaged. There's a lot more to the story, but long story short, she was not invited to my wedding and has pulled my younger siblings into the situation to manipulate me into talking with her. She did come to my house uninvited and said,

I will apologize if you tell me what I should be apologizing for. I refused. I learned from my siblings that she's going to school to become a therapist after she told me that my degree is useless and I should not go on. I am studying to be a future licensed marriage and family therapist. Interesting. And then found out she is a relationship coach. So she's not actually going to school to be a therapist. She went through an online program and is now posting videos on social media talking about how being a mother is hard, dating advice, etc. I won't be consuming her content, but I find it incredibly hurtful that she's discussing relationship advice but doesn't actually take it. There's still so much hurt in our relationship, and I don't particularly

think this will help. I do recognize that she is her own person and entitled to her own perspective and truth, but it is hurtful to me. I am at a point where I've been teetering on reopening communication, but this doesn't help. How do I determine whether I'm ready to start mending the relationship? Thanks for all your help. Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening. to the show. Okay. A lot to unpack here. So you have a mother here that said that your degree was worthless, but then went on to kind of do the same thing, but not without actually getting the degree or any of the credentials or doing, like, the hard work to get there. So I would say that maybe then what you were doing was just threatening to her, not that she thought that it was

worthless, but once she was able to utilize that for power, it felt very different. I have an opinion on parents sharing their grievances about their children on the internet that might be controversial to some. I do not think it's the same thing when adults go on the internet and talk about their parents and when parents do it to their children. And I think that parents who go on the internet to speak poorly about their children and give details and facts and all this and defend themselves to the public in that way are doing irreparable harm to their relationship with their children. I think the parent is supposed to protect that relationship, uphold privacy, be a leader, and find other ways to take care of themselves emotionally that don't

involve speaking about their child on the internet. It's not that I don't think that adults that parents of adult children don't deserve support and to be taking care of and to get empathy. But I think they need to find a way to do that that doesn't involve them erring out problems with their child on the internet. And I think that if and when they decide to do that, they are basically saying, I'm okay with never repairing with my adult child again in the future because I am leaving this digital footprint of all of my grievances out here with strangers. and I don't think that that is parent-like behavior. I just don't. I think that it sets a really bad example and precedent, and you all know that I think that parents need to try to be leaders.

And when parents do that, I often think that there has been a long history of that parent likely sharing inappropriate information with people who did not need to know that information about their child because they are so comfortable going on the internet and doing it in a way that their child could see their friends, their spouses, all of that. And I don't like it. And so I can see how this would feel extremely violating and awful for you to know that your mother is handing out relationship advice, talking about things like this, but not utilizing those skills in your own relationship and I'm a big believer that like if you're going to talk to talk,

you better walk the walk and like use the things that you are not in a perfect way. Like I don't always practice what I preach perfectly, but you need to believe it and model it in your own life to some degree if you're going to be giving out that advice. And it's probably very hurtful maybe for you to see your mother saying things that people should do certain things that she's not willing to do with you. That does not feel good. I also want to go back to how you started your question about, you know, this is the second time we've gone no contact. And it was because she said you were no longer her daughter if you got engaged. So that's an attempt at control, a desire like to seek obedience, telling your child that

they're no longer your child if they do something is really a strong way to assert control, especially over something like this. This wasn't something dangerous or life-threatening or illegal that you were doing. So when you ask the question on, like, I'm at a point where I've been teetering on reopening communication, I think you have to ask yourself if you're having doubts about that. It's like, what's going to be different? What has changed? What behavior can I see in my parent that makes me think that this would be a better dynamic?

I would be concerned that if I reopened communication and this parent is engaging like this on the internet that they might share some things about that. And so I would want to be confident that our communication was going to be kept private as you rebuild that relationship and see if that's something that they're willing to do. And if you have so much hurt left in your relationship, like you said, you know, how are you going to handle that if you reopen communication? Are you expecting things to be different? Or are you willing and trying just to like accept her how she is and nothing change? And you are going to tolerate it. You know, for some people, that is the right choice. And you have to ask yourself, like, if nothing is different

and this is who my mother is and this is how she acts, can I have a relationship? with her. Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Calling Home. I hope that you enjoyed all of the things that I shared with you today and that you'll go and read some of those articles and watch those episodes because I think they will be very helpful. I am so excited to be back in the new year with more episodes. Please don't forget to like, subscribe, leave a review, follow us, leave a comment. That really helps me grow the show, which is something I'm very passionate about right now. And I will see you again on Tuesday for another episode of Calling Home. Bye. The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing

therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship between you and Colling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home's terms of service linked in the show notes below. Thank you.