CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Reacting to The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives with Samantha Dalton

Episode Date: November 25, 2025

Whitney teams up with Samantha Dalton, group facilitator at Calling Home and host of the Nuance Needed podcast, to unpack season three of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. As someone who grew up in the Mormon church and is still actively deconstructing, Samantha provides invaluable cultural context for understanding the relational patterns, power dynamics, and trauma responses playing out in the show. They explore how religion and culture interweave to shape everything from marriages and gender roles to emotional maturity and family loyalty, and how even reality tv moments can create powerful moments of destigmatization and healing for viewers who have dealt with similar experiences. Whitney Goodman is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and the founder of Calling Home, a membership community that helps people navigate complex family dynamics and break harmful cycles. Have a question for Whitney? Send a voice memo or email to [e-mail] Join the Family Cyclebreakers Club⁠⁠ Follow Whitney on Instagram | sitwithwhit Follow Whitney on YouTube | @whitneygoodmanlmft ⁠⁠Order Whitney’s book, Toxic Positivity Learn more about ad choices. Visit podcast.choices.com/adchoices This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice. Content warning: This episode discusses childhood sexual abuse, sexual assault, emotional abuse, and complicated relationship dynamics. 00:00 Introduction and content warning 01:43 Samantha's deconstruction journey 05:57 How Mormonism gets woven into every aspect of life 12:34 Early marriage and the impact on emotional development 23:51 Dad talk and coming to terms with their wives’ success 34:48 Therapy culture in the show 57:24 The power and consequences of sharing trauma on reality tv Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Calling On Podcast. I am your host, Whitney Goodman. And today I am joined by my co-host, Samantha Dalton, who is a group facilitator at Calling Home, as well as the host of the nuance-needed podcast. And we are going to be talking about season three of the secret lives of Mormon wives. Before we begin, I want to give you a heads up that we will be discussing childhood sexual abuse, sexual assault, and emotional abuse and some complications. relationship dynamics. So please skip this episode if those are not things you'd like to hear about right now and take care of yourself while you listen. I want to be very clear about the lens that we're using on this episode. We're not diagnosing anyone on the show and we're definitely

not their therapists. We're not here to label, judge, or shame these women. What we do want to talk about is the dynamics that we see on screen because I think they highlight a lot of lot of patterns that many of you are dealing with in your own relationships and in your families. These stories are going to allow us to explore themes like power, emotional abuse, trauma responses, family loyalty, religion, and healing. And we will keep the focus on behavior and relational patterns, not on personal character, judgment, or diagnoses. There is so much to explore here. And so my hope is that you listen and notice where these dynamics, are showing up in your own life and where you might need more support, boundaries, or

healing. So without further ado, let's get into it and talk about season three of the secret lives of Mormon wives on Hulu. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are an ex-Mormon. Is that what you call yourself? Correct. Yes. I have, I am in the process of deconstructing from okay okay that is that's that would be like the more clinical term sure i guess you could okay when did that process start for you oh lord birth um i would say i would say seriously probably about 2018, is when a lot of my questions really started to come to the surface. I would say the first time I started noticing more poignant discomfort with things was about 2009, which was when I moved to Utah for the first time and was for the first time in my life in, the mecca, if you will. That's like the only way I can just describe it, which is Salt Lake City, Utah and the Salt Lake Valley. I was born into the church. I was raised in it. My parents are both still active members. But I grew up about an hour north of Manhattan and the community is very small there and very intimate. And so growing up, I was very lucky in that I had a lot of exposure to

lots of different cultures and religions and people and I had friends who were Catholic and Jewish and Muslim and evangelical. And so I grew up in a very different environment than most people do who are raised in the church in Utah. And there is a very specific culture in Utah, which I'm sure you can see in the show. So yeah, it's been, it's an ever evolving process. And I think, think, to just kind of dive right in. I think the interesting thing that I tell people about the Mormon religion or what people in the religion now call the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is it is woven into every inch of fabric in your life.

And I think that is a rare element compared to other religions. and I think even from other Christian, more fundamentalist religions, it dictates everything you do in your family, it dictates the decisions you make, it dictates your community, the people you spend time with, the things that you do or don't do. It's, you're meant to be thinking about it all the time in terms of accessing, you know, and feeling what we call the spirit, like you want to be in tune with, like, God at all times. And so this pressure of like everything that I do has to be like symbolic of this church. And I represent the church.

And would I feel that I'm properly representing Christ in this moment? If I were to see God right now, would I feel okay with what I'm doing or not doing? Yeah. Am I dressed okay? Am I speaking okay? Am I behaving okay? Have I done something that would disappoint God? Like, it's just, it's this ever-present constant discussion that you're having every day of the week you have on Sundays.

Monday nights are designated as family home evening, which are meant to be like specific family nights where you do something like spiritually as a family. You are meant to be reading scriptures every day as a family, praying constantly, whether that's like audibly or you're just like silently praying to yourself. So it is, it is everything. thing in your life and culturally. And so I just wanted to add in that caveat for people who have either watched the show or haven't watched the show and have maybe seen like some really odd or interesting behaviors that they haven't understood. So we, yeah.

Totally. It's, you know, I appreciate you saying that because I feel like this is one of those situations where the religion is also the culture and like creates the cultural norms, right? where when I was growing up, you know, I went to religious school for a lot of my life, like up until high school, but I never really thought of it as being my culture. Like it was just kind of like this thing that was in my life, but it didn't dictate everything. And it certainly wasn't the biggest piece of my identity where before I was having kids with my husband, who I've mentioned on here a million times as Jewish, like we talked about how Judaism

is both your culture and your religion a lot of the time, right? And you can be a non-religious Jew, but still feel that Judaism is a big part of your culture. And so that's what I see in this show is like, even for the ones that have moved away from Mormonism as a religion or from the church, it's still very much woven in to their culture and their beliefs. And I think we're going to see a lot of that come out in these scenes. I think it's it kind of dictates their marriages and gender roles and how they think even after they have left the religious part in a lot of ways.

Yes. Yes. And I'll point that out in the clips that we analyze because I think it's really hard to conceptualize just talking about it. Like, you need to see it. And I think the other thing that I find really interesting that every single time this season drops or every time something comes out where someone who either maybe identifies themselves as more of a progressive Mormon or someone who has left the church and is talking about it, being more reflective, current members will always come on their social media feeds and say, you're going to see some of this stuff. And I just want to remind you that this is not a representation of the church. And this isn't a representation of who we are. And it's like, but it is. Yeah. Yeah. It is. And I know, like I'm holding your hands while I tell you that. But it is. And yes, something like Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is obviously on the extreme end of that bell curve, absolutely. But it is in exactly as you said, it's in their marriages.

It's in their friendships. It's in their sexual lives. It's in the way they portray and present themselves. It's in their emotional immaturity in a lot of things. And it's in the way they approach motherhood. It's everywhere. It is. It is. And it's got to be so weird. I had never interacted with Mormonism or a Mormon person in my life. I think the first time I started seeing it was like in the real rise of Instagram, there were a lot of big influencers who are Mormons, right? Like some of the best ones out there. Yes. And that's when I started learning about it. But I'm wondering what it's like to have this spotlight on a community that you grew up in. It's weird. Yeah. Because I, like, I would be the first.

to say, like my parents are still very active members. I'm very lucky in that my parents have been very understanding and empathetic of my deconstruction journey. And that is actually, that's pretty rare for some people that I know. But a lot of parents have a really, really hard time or grandparents or extended family members. So I'm lucky in that regard. However, it is interesting because I was very aware of how small a group of people we are growing up. So I was used to being the minority, if you will. Yeah. And being in Utah is a totally different experience because you are either constantly around people who are actively in it, have deconstructed from it, or are not in.

it but have lived in Utah their whole lives and are still completely familiar with all of the lingo, the culture, the expectations. They've driven by temples and churches every day of their life. And it's as much a part of their life as it is anybody else is. So I think that is what is fascinating about Utah is they don't understand how unique of a lifestyle they live and how unique of a place it really is. and so to see it magnified was bizarre and I think even like in the first I think it was either the second or third episode of the first season Dakota and Taylor went to a sushi restaurant that I could see from my patio oh wow that's always funny when that happens like that's how every single place that they have ever gone to in that show I know exactly where it is and I have more likely than not been there I know exactly where Jesse's hair salon is.

Jayzie Stiles, wow. Jayzie Stiles. I've driven by it a million times. I can pretty much figure out where they all live based on like the mountains in the background. That's like geolocating when you live in Utah. You know like the exact like where each town lines up with like the mountains. I can be like, oh yeah, that's Draper or that's Sandy or that's Cottonwood Heights or that's

Lehigh or that's Provo. Like I knew where everything is. And so it actually brought up, for my deconstruction journey, for me, it brought up a lot of resentment with how familiar I was and with how in tune I was with what was going on and the cultural undertones and the level of shame that every single one of these women were operating under at different times and still are. And I think one of my biggest things that Amanda and I dove into this in the episodes that we've done, but what I find very fascinating about the culture as a whole, and this is, I also want to preface to, this is all my take, right?

Everybody gets to have their view. This is my experience, according to me. What I think is really interesting is the church really, really encourages young marriage. Like, that is common. Like, it is, it is the most normal thing in the world for a 19-year-old to get married. It is, it's more often than not an unspoken understanding that you are going to school to find someone to get married. Yeah. Or even, like, to marry your high school boyfriend, it seems like.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. You date somebody in high school. Those would be normal conversations to be having. Yes. He goes, he goes on his Mormon mission. You wait for him through the mission. You get married when he comes. comes back. Like, that is incredibly common. And so what I think happens is you have a bunch of

people that are, even when they get married, maybe best case scenario, five to seven years out from like full frontal lobe development, then they're having sometimes two or three, maybe even four children within their 20s. And really, during this time when you are meant to be out, being kind of messy, learning about yourself, being exposed to different parts of the world, figuring out who you are, what's important to you, all of these like fundamental building block experiences, they are all cosplaying adulthood. Right? They are, you know, living as full-blown adults, which is fine.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with that if that's what you want to do. What I feel concerned about is I don't think a 19-year-old. in any capacity actually knows what they want to do. Yeah. And so the problem is, because something that a lot of people have brought up to me is like the level of emotional immaturity some of the people on the show have

and some of the things that they seem to struggle with and the repetitive issues and the decisions that they seem to make. They feel like 16 to me when I'm watching them. My thesis with that is they are never allowed a period of time to be curious about themselves. Yeah. Because even when you're a teenager, you are taught that sex is the worst thing that could ever happen to you, ever. And you're not supposed to explore it.

And you're not allowed to date one on one until you're 16. They encourage group dates. You're supposed to go out on these events. You're supposed to be pure and chaste and clean and be centering God. in your life and building your relationship with God and focusing on this. And then they throw you into college and they're like, well, why aren't you getting married and having sex and having kids? Yeah.

So you go from like zero to 150, but you weren't developmentally ready to get on that treadmill. And so they hit all of these huge blocks of dating marriage baby. And then they get to the other end of that. And they're still frozen at 18. 100%. And so I say this with a lot of love because I'm not saying that any of these people are dumb. That's not what I'm talking about. Totally.

I agree with you. From a therapeutic perspective, I'm seeing so much emotional trauma. And I think in many ways, emotional neglect, I could have a whole podcast series on Taylor's parents. I know. And the approach that they have taken to things in season two, that barbecue. Yes, yes. That was one of the most painful things I've ever watched. And I know people who have been in situations similar to that.

And I, there is an emotional immaturity. And I think women are encouraged sometimes. through passive cultural norms and social expectations to stay emotionally immature. Well, yeah, and the men seem even more stunted than the women, which I think what you're saying right now is a perfect segue into like the first dynamic that I want to talk about this season, which is between Jesse and her husband Jordan, right, who are, I think Jesse is what, third. 31. She's maybe one of the older ones. 32. I think she's the oldest. Right. And she has a five-year-old and a two-year-old. They've been married. We also find out that Jordan had a child at 18. So he had another woman that he was married to, got divorced from, and has a child. But there's this moment in what I'm talking about is episode 4 where Jesse admits that she's having an emotional affair with this guy Marciano from Vanderpenter hump roles. And why this guy is getting so much airtime is really beyond me. Like, I hope we don't see him again. You know, it felt to me like emotional affair was a little bit strong of a word. Like, I think they, I don't know, they kissed twice or something while they, Jesse and Jordan

were separated. And we see this conversation happening between the two of them, right? And I think at this point, Jesse has mentioned, like, that Jordan has been emotionally abusive throughout their marriage. And he's basically telling her in kind of different words, like, your son is going to watch this show and see that you were a whore, you know? And he keeps bringing up his own masculinity. That's like all he's talking about is how embarrassed he's going to be that his wife stepped out. And he says, this is exactly why I've treated you the way of. I've treated you, which is like abuse 101, right? Of like, you did this, so I had to do that to you.

But what's so fascinating in this moment is we learn, Jesse is the breadwinner. She's also the one that seems like she's doing the majority, which I want to talk about that more later because I think all of these women are like the main breadwinners in their family. Yep. And so we know that Jordan is not helping a lot with the kids. he's not helping financially. He's also talking down to her.

And the only moment I think where he feels like his masculinity is really threatened is when he finds out that she was physical with another man. And I just found this to be such an interesting scene about their marriage dynamics and like the role of masculinity in these marriages. Men get to avoid accountability like the plague. And I think this isn't even just Mormon culture. This is religious patriarchy writ large. Yeah.

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Men are the only ones that can, like, achieve the priesthood, right? Yes, yes. So it is this belief that you have, if you are a worthy male, meaning you're behaving in a way that would please God, you are given this gift to receive, like, direct inspiration from God, from source, from the universe, whatever terminology you're familiar with. And they are meant to use that to lead their home. So on the surface, a lot of people would say, oh, so like you're supposed to be the one. doing everything and it's like well no because then actually the woman's domain is the home right so so like okay the man can go out and work but then the woman's job is to be raising the children caring for the home making sure things run smooth making sure he's taking care of

while he's has his responsibilities because he might have a calling in the church that forces him to put his time elsewhere in helping you either their ward community or larger communities, which are like groups of wards, are called stakes. So a ward is like a local congregation. And then within a stake, there's usually like anywhere from eight to nine wards. The church is extremely well organized. Like I don't think people grasp like how well run it is as an organization. And it's all run on volunteer labor.

We are all together building Zion. And I think what is so fascinating is someone like a Jordan, he feels that Jesse is his. Yeah. And everything that she is doing is expected because it's in service of their marriage. And he gets let off the hook a bit. And the second she does something to upset. him is when like the sense of offense comes and it's like well let's talk about maybe you're

feeling emasculated because you're not contributing at all right maybe you're feeling emasculated because you feel understandably useless yeah a hundred percent and that's where I get like it's like okay if your wife is making all the money for the home caring for the children and doing everything else inside of the home, it makes sense why you feel that way, because what are you doing? Right. Like, you probably feel as if you're not contributing because you're not. And then if that feeling then turns into anger, and I'm going to treat you poorly because I don't like how I'm feeling, you are double, like, really not contributing anything.

Right. Right. And also, I just want to pause to and say, like, how rich it was for Jordan, who has just been quote unquote cheated on, which I actually don't think that he was, but that's a conversation for a different day. Yeah. He's going to Dakota for support in that realm. It tells you everything you need to know. Like for them to like not even, for Dakota to not even have an understanding of that is exactly what he put Taylor through multiple times over. But then for Jordan to not even realize he in some ways is speaking to a to use a dramatic term perpetrator right right i think though

a lot of these men though like in this circle or just in general it's like when you feel like you've done something wrong that you don't want to be accountable for you surround yourself with people that will not hold you accountable and who have done worse than you right and so if you do that then it's like i can't believe she she cheated on me you know which i think brings us to like this next scene of the meeting of the dads. I'm not sure if you've seen the dad talk congregation. I've heard about it. I actually haven't seen that yet. Yeah. It was particularly disturbing to me because I think it's like it's Jordan and Jen's husband, Jen Affleck's husband, I'm blanking on his name. Zach, okay. He's there and maybe one other person is there too that I can't. It might be Macy's

husband. And they start saying all this really coded stuff. Like Jordan says, you don't tell your wife what to do because she's her own person, right? Like with a question at the end. And then Zach says, yeah, I'm all for women's empowerment, but I don't understand why that isn't the biggest thing they could be fighting for. Mom talk could learn a lot from dad talk, which don't even get we started on dad talk being a thing because it's not a thing it's not a thing it's almost like they're saying these things out loud about like women's empowerment and being like do you guys believe that or should we be telling them what to do or like it's interesting i even though i haven't seen that particular scene i think what i hear from that if i draw a line across the last three

seasons as a whole. It feels like the men are constantly grappling with the concept of a woman's success. Yes, absolutely. They enjoy it. Yes. The benefits of it for sure. Yeah. And to loop back in the very beginning when I was talking about like the emotional immaturity that some of these women have, when I frame that, I don't frame that as a judgment against them. I am framing that as a judgment against the system that they were brought up in. And the covert, sinister ways that that creates a sense of oppression. And these women who have these incredible careers and are building these incredible brands and are super successful and are trying to balance motherhood and partnership and all of this.

And here they are with these like, frankly, in a lot of terms, like quite milk toast dudes that are sitting like pontificating around like what what does one do when one's wife does well like how does that why do I feel bad like I don't like how that makes me feel and they keep talking about it in the abstract and for Jesse to like I think you and I as therapist know like for someone to step out in a relationship that has been so unfulfilling is an inevitability when that's never been addressed when it's never been talked about there will somehow come like this magic mix of circumstances where they will meet somebody that sparks something in them that they haven't felt for a really long time yeah and they will lean into that

and I think that's exactly what happened with Jesse here we can't know like specifically, but then for Jordan to now be confronted with how little he has contributed to the marriage and that instead of questioning like, wow, what was I doing that made my wife feel like she couldn't come to me with feeling this way and was driven to someone else, they cannot possibly sit with the fact that it was them. Totally. And there's no discussion around how we got to this moment. It's very much this focus on, well, you had an affair. Okay. So what was, what was happening in all these years prior in our marriage and not that Jesse shouldn't take responsibility? For sure. You know, what she did was not within the confines of the agreement in

their marriage, 100%. It's more just like, if we're actually going to fix this, then we have to look at the circumstances that led us here and maybe all take some accountability. Right. Right. And that is like even if I go back to my personal experience and think of friends who have navigated relationship issues or marriage issues or have navigated divorce within the barn church or even the way the church approaches pornography addiction, which is a huge focus for them. They literally have support groups within wards for people to meet and like talk about how they use porn. I could go off for hours of how problem. I could go off for hours of how problem. I find that. But it is like there's no, you're exactly right that there's no discussion. There's no reflection. There's just this hyper fixation on the immediate moment and the immediate problem and how do we fix the immediate problem?

And fixing the immediate problem always depends on somebody else swallowing their discomfort. Right? Yeah. It will always inevitably end with someone who has to figure out how to be okay. with the other person doing what they did. Yeah. And then it's couched in forgiveness, and it's wrapped in, like, taking the higher road. And, like, if I expect God to forgive me for everything that I do, why am I not expected to forgive someone else?

And so this very fascinating external pressure that is put on us. But then you're exactly right. There's never a reflection of, like, well, what like why to use the porn example like why are you driven to use porn is it because you weren't taught about sex and sexual intimacy is it that you weren't taught how to express your sexual needs it's that you weren't taught how to either feel safe in that intimacy or you know communicate what it is that you're wanting with a partner it's all like wrapped in shame but if you start to picket that scab, you start to like pull it all apart. And it comes up with all of

these questions that nobody wants to sit with an answer. Yeah. Yeah. It strikes me as like, and I know that this is reality TV. And so they pick people with these types of histories and stuff. But the sheer amount of childhood sexual abuse, divorce, infidelity, and And like pornography addiction, other types of, that have existed just in this friend group alone feels statistically like just crazy to me that you would have all of that in one group. Like there for a culture and a community that is so against divorce, a lot of these people have been divorced and they've been unfaithful and they've had children outside of marriage and they've And it's like, I couldn't find any reliable data on this, but it does seem wild that in a community where there's so much messaging against that, how much we see of it on this show.

Well, because absolutely. And I think, again, from like my experience and my understanding of the work I've done in my deconstruction, I think along that line, what happens is there's a lot of people who go through things like this. in their 20s. There's a lot of people that have the chance to be really messy in their teens and their 20s, but it's not couched in the shame. Yeah. And they haven't taken on all of this responsibility of long-term committed relationship and marriage, parenthood.

Kids. Like, they're going through this with kids. With kids. And so we hear people going through this in the outside world of 24, 25, exploring an open relationship, you know, stepping out on a partner when maybe that isn't something aligned with their values, but it ends up happening anyway, right? Like, people get to explore this when they don't have the responsibility tying them down, adding on the complexity of the accountability. Yeah, yeah. And the amount of damage that it can call. Yes. Yes. I just think about

things I did at that age, you know, prior to having children and all of that. And how, much damage that could have done if I was doing that now. Like all this collateral damage that I don't think these people want to cause. They're very loving parents. I will say that. And you can tell that their families mean a lot to them. And I think that's actually something that I really love about Mormon culture is that a lot of them do seem very loving and dedicated. And like their families are at the center of what they're doing. And I think that's a wonderful value. But even without trying, there's a lot being done here. Yes.

There's a lot. And I think this is what's hard when little kids are being exposed to and going through things, right? It's because you and I, our clinical spidey senses, can go off and be like, we can kind of visualize what that trajectory is going to lead to. Yeah, yeah. I can see what's going on in the home. Yes.

with some degree of certainty. Yes. And how those kids will respond to that and how they can behave as they get older and world beliefs that they will have. And so the reason I brought up that of like for everybody else, this is just like a normal, messy behavior. But when you haven't ever been allowed to behave this way, when you've never been allowed to explore these parts of yourself,

when you've never been allowed to exert this. this type of freedom and autonomy, it ends up coming out eventually. Yes. But then you have all of these ramifications now because you're doing it in situations where if you had been able to get that out early when it was for an adult developmentally appropriate, you would be able to have the partner and the babies in a much more stable headspace because you sorted through that. And also, like, let's be honest, last season when they finally explained what the open marriages were, I'm like, that wasn't an open marriage.

You guys were just having sex in the same room. I know. And there's even like a, there's a misunderstanding. They keep putting these huge terms on behavior that's like, yeah, okay, that's kind of like risque and kinky and like. you know, maybe a little bit BDSM vibes. But that's not that. Totally. Let's talk about that, though, because this show is like steeped in therapy culture. I mean, I've never seen a group of people like publicly doing so much therapy. I mean, we see them doing EMDR, ketamine, sex therapy. They're using all these words that it's like they downloaded, you know, the list of therapy terms and they weave

them into conversation so skillfully, like it's another dialect for them. And I'm wondering, like, do you view that as a net positive or negative? Like, what are, what are they doing with that? I think what I see with that, because I, I, a thousand percent agree. I think what I've seen in watching the show is they are still trying to reconcile the religion within all of it. And I think even in the men specifically, I see the men kind of trying to figure out how to spin it and twist it into things that it's the weaponization of the language, to put it very bluntly, right? And I think I see that across all the characters in the show is there is this passive weaponization to use to justify why they do what they do, like to give an explanation. but then they don't land the plane and being like, oh, here's why that's problematic for me in my life.

Like, I feel like there's never, they're really good, like, even the women are really, really good at talking about why things are very problematic for the people around them. Yeah. But I find they have a hard time figuring out how the problematic behavior of others actually impacts them. When they have to sit with that, that's when we see like, the super reactive responses to things. And even, I want to bring something up from last season, which is, well, I saw in the first

episode when Jen talks about her prenatal anxiety. Yes. Yes, that's true. You and I both know as therapist. That's absolutely possible. And I want to add in another element of, of course you were anxious. when you were planning on getting divorced from someone, you ended up having a one-night stand,

getting pregnant with a baby you didn't want with this man, and you now have to figure out what to do. And you're like 26 with three kids under three. And you are very clearly, your husband dropped out of med school. Yes. So you're clearly the one driving the ship here financially and everything. Yes.

The amount of pressure, that girl must have felt, like it would be weird. she wasn't reacting negatively in that moment. And I think that's crazy. That's what I, I felt really frustrated when she said that because I'm like, can we not deflect from the reality of what your life is? Yeah. Can we not tie it to hormones and recognize that that actually is an inherently stressful

situation? And it actually, I would probably bet had nothing to do with the physical reality of your pregnancy and everything to do with what that pregnancy represented for you and feeling trapped and feeling stuck and not even knowing if you love this man like of course there is going to be stress and tension and overwhelm in that situation but then when you couch it in i had prenatal anxiety that gets to be dismissive of everybody's role because then it throws it out to this passive external force that was like, I had no control over that. I had a chemical imbalance in my brain type of rhetoric. Yeah.

I don't know if you remember the clip where like she's looking at the pregnancy test. I think they probably had her do this again for the cameras and she's crying and she's like, I know I should be happy about this baby because I'm sure it's, you know, every baby is a blessing and a gift, but I feel so overwhelmed and like, I felt that way. I did. when I've taken a pregnancy and then like okay yeah this is great like right now I'm thinking about especially as a woman when you're like I have to grow this baby and carry it and all these things like it's a lot and to feel that pressure of like I better figure out a way to perform that I am nothing but happy in this moment or I'm going to be looked at as a monster yes is just that alone leave out all her marital issues everything else is debilitating in my opinion a thousand percent yeah and i i got frustrated when hearing her say that because i was like that is so it's almost like language that involves like self abandonment

interesting yeah like to to detach from your truth and and who knows what's going on like behind the scenes right whether this was framed whether she wanted it framed that way for the sake of the show, knowing that this lives forever and your children will be adults one day. Like, I'm not sitting here judging whatever decision she made or whatever decision the producers made, right? But I think what I want to call attention to is like, I don't think that was tied to a hormonal imbalance. I think that was tied to that is an inherently complicated, distressing life circumstance.

totally totally i think it's i think it's smart that you what you just said though about like that could have been her also protecting her kids yeah wanting them to feel like they were always wanted and that you know i understand that and also i think she's very protective of her husband after all that they have aired you know there's definitely and i could talk about their marriage all day because, you know, she's this Hispanic girl whose mom cleans the hospital where his dad, I mean, the power dynamics at play in that relationship are so layered that like everything she does, I think is far more complicated than she even realizes. Well, and I think the, if we want to talk about one of these women eclipsing their husbands, I think she's even done that far beyond. Jesse and Jordan. Totally, totally.

Just professionally alone for him to go from like, I'm going to be a doctor to dropping out. Yeah. And the shame inherent with that. Mm-hmm. And knowing that she's still super successful and she ends up on dancing stars and she does this, this and this. And, you know, like, their marriage to me is so complex. Yes. Have you watched Dancing with the Stars?

No. Okay. So if you want to go back and like if you watch her on that show because I had postpartum depression and watching her made me so sad for her because I felt like, you know, she was on that show. God, I think she was eight weeks postpartum when it started. Like she had like a two-month-old baby. It was crazy. And I can't imagine. I mean, I kind of feel this right now personally.

Like I'm writing my next book while I'm pregnant. This was not planned. And there's sort of this weird feeling of like I'm getting one of the biggest opportunities of my life while also doing this other thing. And you have all these complicated emotions that she just seemed so tired and overwhelmed to me, but wanted this to be amazing for her. And every time they asked her anything about her, what she was doing there, she only brought up her kids. She never brought up herself. It was just like, I'm doing it for my kids.

I hope my kids watch this. And I just was like, God, it's really, it was really sad to watch. I think by the end she, like, wanted to get voted off because it seemed exhausting to her. Yeah. Well, but that's like another, that's kind of another like unspoken social norm within the church that once you have kids, that is what it is about. All the time, constantly, that has to be your focus. Like, you come last. Like, it would have been taboo for her to say anything else.

Yeah. And I think she, whether or not that's, and I want to bring this too, right? Because I think we know when it comes to cultural stuff, so much of it is so unspoken that it's really easy for a lot of people to be like, no, that's not true. I wouldn't have thought about it. but it's in every single microaggression as you're witnessing how people speak about motherhood how people speak about their kids the way they center their kids the you know the self-sacrifice Olympics right and I think for her to be constantly like my kids are my focus my kids are my focus my kids are my focus my kids are my foot like that kind of is the unwritten rule that even

if you have all of this over here right you have all this going on for you over here you have to remember that the greatest calling you could ever have is these kids. Yeah. And that's the thing that is the most important. And you need to remember that. That none of this, nothing else matters if the home is suffering. And so I think for her, it was her, like, whether or not she was even aware of this, right? But maybe trying to prove to herself of like, no, even though I maybe haven't seen my kids as much, I'm exhausted, I don't feel good.

I can't engage with them the same. It's okay because this is for them. So that's why it's okay. that I'm doing this because it's for them. So true. I just can't imagine like I think everyone is entitled to a period of their life where they can be selfish. Absolutely. And only think about themselves. And I think about times that I had that in my life. And I cannot imagine being a mother without having had that. Because I just look at this girl and I'm like, you're so young, 26 years old, three little kids and not just like three tiny kids all in a row under your care.

And you never got a chance to just be like, what do I want? Like what would make me feel good? Which I think that is exactly why I think we see some of these people behave the way they do. Yeah. They are reaching out for that ability to feel that kind of freedom to not care. Yeah. Because they do understandably care so much. Of course they love their kids.

Of course they want to have successful relationships. But they completely missed out on that opportunity to exactly, as you said, be selfish. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so even if they are feeling resentment towards their spouse, or maybe if they are feeling resentment towards their kids or feel held back, it feels sinful to even communicate that. Yeah. It's complicated. It's so complicated and it's, it's like sad. It's sad to watch, you know. The last thing I want to talk about that I'm sure you've seen is like going around even though you haven't seen the episode is sort of the de me situation that is playing out, you know, throughout this season. And for anyone listening, I want to sort of caveat this with, of course, you and I do not know what actually went down between those two people. And I don't want to make any statement about.

whether this was sexual assault or not because there's no way for me to know. Right. But what I have found really fascinating is the way that this group of women is discussing it, the angles that some of them have taken, particularly Miranda, who is kind of saying, like, hey, you can't use your position as a woman to defame this person if that's not actually what happened. And Demi also is pointing at Macy and Michaela and saying, you need to support me because of what happened to you. And I don't want to compare traumas. But we've had Michaela talking about this entire season how she was sexually abused, I believe, by a family member since she was like

six. Yes. And so I had some trouble with that, like with that comparison being made. And I don't know. I'd love to hear your thoughts on, like, what you think is going on here among the group and how they're all perceiving this situation. Well, I think it again, oh, man, this is so, this is so layered. And I'm with you. I never want it to sound like I am undercutting what someone says their experience was. 100%. Or that I'm saying their line.

Not at all. If someone tells me that, I believe you. Same. That's how I, that's how I operate in my personal life. That's how I operate in my professional life. And I just, I know you're the exact same. So I want to get that out of the way. I'm not talking at all about the allegations themselves.

I think to look at something like this situation at the 30,000 foot view, I think one of the best metaphors I've heard around trauma is that there are paper cuts and there are amputations. Yeah. Both should be addressed. both have routines, medical routines, if you will, of how to care for them and help them heal. And it is, it would be irrefutable that people would say a paper cut is going to be less impactful than an amputation. And I say that with all the love and respect in the world for anybody who says they've gone through anything that has caused them to suffer or struggle. or be harmed. And I think it is also okay for us to call attention to, one, nobody owes you anything just because they went through something. That is completely up to them and where they are

in their healing journey and how comfortable they feel about taking on the role of an advocate and being more vocal about it. You cannot rush somebody to do that. We know that that is an integral part of the healing process and feeling that it is completely your decision and your timetable of when you open up about those things and how you choose to use that experience to find purpose right i think too i think it is really alarming when someone uses someone else's trauma against them to be manipulative yeah i have a lot of moral and value issues towards someone when i see them do something like that. And the third point I will make is I think when you are trapped in seeking revenge, you have some more work to do. And I think, I think sitting in the revenge

headspace, and you and I both know this having worked with clients for years, is that's an important headspace to play in. It's fun to kind of explore and to allow your mind to kind of roam freely of what you wish could happen to someone who caused you harm. I think that's kind of a taboo topic, but it's a channel I've opened up for some of my clients to figure out how to actually process the anger that they have and the resentment to allow your brain to go there. And I get that, that's actually a place that's like pretty early on in the healing journey. And when I hear someone who is so hell-bent on something happening to someone else and trying to rally an army, that's where I start to get a little like, I would, if I was working with this person, I would ask for like a big time pause to ask like, why? What are we hoping to achieve with this?

Now again, we understand this is reality TV. We understand that these are storylines. producers are pushing things. Producers create environments where drama unfolds and toxicity thrives. Totally get that. However, I also think these women are masterful brand builders and are playing into the game as much as the producers are. Totally. And so that leads me to think I started really questioning Demi last season in season two.

and what I've seen so far in clips and hearing things from other people and how things are going down, I think it's problematic. Yeah. The whole time I was watching her, I think what you said is so perfectly sad, and I agree with you. I kept getting this feeling of like, there's something going on here that we don't know about. Like when someone has reactions like this, you know, even to when that other guy like kind of grazed her, and she said it was a shove, like, things like that. Oh, when she's like, he put his hands on me, she went upstairs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they replay that scene a bunch of times in the current season. And, you know, I think that we talked about this earlier, like using these really big words sometimes for certain situations. And when you've grown up, and Demi talks about this, she talks about being a glass child and that her brother is disabled. And I'm still, or has Down syndrome, maybe I can't remember. And she, I'm hearing all this and I'm like, okay, it's starting to make a little more sense, but I still feel like you're not aware of why you're reacting the way that you're reacting in certain situations.

Yeah. And as someone who also grew up with a severely specialized sibling, there are plenty of people that go through really horrible things and don't behave in these ways. 100%. I also grew up with a very, a sibling who has been sick my entire life. Yes. And so when she started talking about that, I'm like, you know, gosh, it just, it's not making sense.

And so to me, when someone's behavior doesn't make sense to me, I'm always like, there's parts of the story that I'm not hearing that I don't know because I think for you and I, we would both agree that, like, if I, if I hear someone's story and I look at, I can pretty much make anything make sense, right? Like, it's a very easy thing for me to do almost to a fault. And this one, when I was watching, I was just like, the pieces are not fitting together. These reactions don't seem to be tied to what we're talking about. I feel like they're connected to something else.

And something that we have to remember about reality TV, which is one of the reasons I love analyzing this stuff is like, what we're talking about, I know it seems like, oh, it's trivial as part of the show. these are big things. This show is covering childhood sexual abuse, intimate partner violence, sexual assault. Like, this is the kind of stuff that ruins people's lives that is very harmful. It's huge. We're not talking about, like, who said what behind each other's backs. And I think sometimes we have to step back and remember that, like, yes, this is all fun in games. They're fighting the producers are involved.

But it's also, like, this is some of the most traumatic biggest things. that someone will go through in their life. I'm so glad you brought that up because I think my, since season one, and I remember I was still living in Utah when season one came out. And I was at one of my friends' homes, there was about five of us together and we were all watching it. And I remember the other four friends I was who I'm still friends with, they were kind of seeing it as like funny and light.

Yeah. And I was watching the first three episodes. And I was like, this is a nightmare. I know. I felt dark to me too. I felt some darkness. This is a nightmare. And I was getting like so agitated and I was sitting in the corner like, what are we doing? You know, and I, I've sat with that a lot and I tried really hard to like pull back and be like, okay, calm down. One, these aren't your clients. I don't have to fix them. Like, it's okay. Two, you're being triggered because you're seeing a lot of behaviors that you've been confronted with from people in your personal life. You're seeing the harm of the culture on full. display while you're in like full-blown deconstruction mode, right? So I was able to kind of like pull back from those two points. But then as I've continued to watch and I've continued to pay attention, what I feel incredibly frustrated with is exactly as you said, we are dealing with

powerful life experiences, powerful, profound life-altering situations and experiences. And I think it is being poorly served in a reality TV setting and should almost be a documentary. Very good point. Yeah. I think as I've sat with, I'm like, why am I angry about this? Like, why am I so upset that a reality TV show exists? And I think this isn't, when I see, because people have asked me like, well, why aren't you more upset about like the Housewives franchise? And I'm like, well, when I see.

40 to 50-year-old women joining these shows. They know exactly what they're doing. They're experienced. They're established. They know the game. They're fully invested in the outcome and understanding what they're engaging with. When I see people that grew up in a fundamentalist oppressive religion join a show in their early 20s hot off the heels of scandal, trauma, abuse, neglect, both in childhood and adulthood, that almost feels exploitative. Yeah, I agree with you. And I think that's sometimes where I wrestle with like, sometimes I'll find myself sitting there and being like, is it okay for me to be watching this? Like almost this voyeuristic, like this feels uncomfortable. But then the other side of me says, how amazing is it that these people are brave enough to do this and bring these stories up because you and I both know that there are millions of other people around the world that are looking at this and saying, oh, my.

gosh, if she can talk about this, maybe I can too. And I do believe in, it's one of the reasons why I like reality TV, because I don't think it mimics daily life in a lot of ways. And we can utilize it, especially you and I, to be like, here's what's going on here. Here's how you can use this in your life. But that does not negate the real and measurable consequences that can happen to these people as a result of being involved in this. Absolutely. And I, I, I, I agree with you. I think I do respect these women. And I hope it has ever come across as I'm being like judgmental or. A hundred percent. I don't think it does. I, they are the result of their experiences. And they are the product of the way they were raised in and the environments that they were raised in. And the support or lack of support that they were. received in really, really critical periods of their life.

And this show is just so uniquely layered because of the religious component and the religious trauma that is interwoven through all of this. And I think what people on the surface see as like immature and silly is trauma. And these are women who have been traumatized. and they've never been given the skills to figure out how to process or manage that, or at least given consistent access to skills and support to figure that out. And we're seeing them figure it out in real time. And I'm with you.

Like even I'm two episodes into this season, and I know how it turns out and stuff because that ex-wormom community runs deep. And we all talk about these things. but I got to the second episode, and I was like, I'm just uncomfortable. And I think sometimes as a therapist, and I'm sure you feel the same way, there's some shows where sometimes you're like, I'm trying to work right now. I know, I know. I find myself feeling like that all the time.

My husband's like, stopped. I'm like taking notes. I was on my phone. I was like, yeah. Yeah. You ever just like relax? I'm like, there's just a lot of good material here. Content is king.

I have to talk about this. But it's also, I think you and I are so attuned to noticing these things and to be seeing it on such a public scale in understanding the possibility of the ramifications and the ripple effects of this. It's like it's painful to watch. And the way like so many of these issues could be dealt with with just, like, healthy communication and support. And, I mean, that can be applied to any reality TV show ever, period.

But, yeah, I agree with you. It's been a hard watch for me. Yeah, yeah. I'm actually very impressed with the women on the show. I think it takes guts in that community. I think it's hard to expose your life on TV, but within that community and to go on and talk about sexual abuse and things that happened to you. I mean, in the last reunion, Whitney's husband talking about what he had been through and

how that impacted their marriage and he's crying, you know, on national television. It's the number one show on Hulu. Like, I am always going to be, like, in awe of people that can do that and that do that for others. Like, I think it's incredible. And so say what you want about everything else. I think there are a lot of people that have been moved and impacted by the stories that have been shared here. And I feel like that doesn't get discussed enough.

It's all just about like who's fighting with who and blah, blah, blah. But that's really what I think you and I hope people take away from this is like how powerful it can be to hear stories like that be told out loud. Yeah. Yeah. And to like shame thrives in the dark and shame thrives in secrecy. And I think so much of what these women are doing are destigmatizing things. I mean, even all the way back to the conversation Whitney had with her mom about the vibrator. Like, that is, that is bold and brave when you have grown up in such a stifling environment.

Yeah. And one that tells you so many parts of you that are just inherent to the human experience are bad. and something that needs to be, like, smashed and forgotten about in order to be considered worthy. And, yeah, I'm with you. I think underneath all this, there is so much to be impressed with. I think I just get sad to see how difficult it all is. Absolutely, especially with your personal experience. I think that adds a whole new layer.

to it. And that's why I want to thank you so much for having this conversation with me. I feel like you and I could just sit and talk about this for like 20 hours. I know I could. To give the listeners a break for their ears, I want to say thank you so much. We were the perfect person to talk about this with because of your personal and your professional experience. So thank you again. And I loved all of your insight into the show. Yeah. Thank you for having me on. It was great. Of course. Thank you. Calling Home Podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship between you and Collingholm or Whitney Goodman.

For more information on this, please see Collingholm's terms of service linked in the show notes below. Thank you.