CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - SURVIVING IN-LAWS with Elizabeth Earnshaw

Episode Date: November 28, 2023

In this episode, Whitney talks with Elizabeth Earnshaw, a marriage and family therapist, about navigating relationships with in-laws. They explore the importance of finding common ground with your partner's family and setting boundaries. They also discuss a Reddit post about a conflict over a child's last name, highlighting the importance of communication and understanding in such situations. Elizabeth also emphasizes the importance of the couple acting as a team and understanding each other's perspectives, and they also discuss the potential harm of criticizing in-laws and the benefits of having in-laws involved in one's life. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Elizabeth Earnshaw, a marriage and family therapist who's here to talk with me about navigating relationships with in-laws. I'm Whitney Goodman. Welcome to the Calling Home podcast. I'm glad you're here. I've received a lot of DMs and comments on my Instagram about this, so I thought it might be helpful to discuss how we can find common ground with our partner's family, especially as we're heading into the holiday season. It can feel stressful to have certain behaviors demonstrated in your household that you don't feel comfortable with. And it's crucial for you and your partner to remain a team when you broach certain issues and set boundaries with your in-laws.

I was reading this article on Oprah's website the other day that talked about how joining another family kind of feels like being dropped into water that is totally different than the water you've been swimming in. And I think that can be such an accurate representation for how it can sometimes feel with our in-laws and our partners' families. That being said, it's equally as important to accept that you cannot control the way that your partner's family behaves. Finding that balance can be tough, but it can start with being able to let the little

things go and learn how to find common ground. I don't know if you've ever heard of these things on Reddit called Am I the Asshole? Have you heard of this? Oh, yes. I love reading them. I'm obsessed with these. So I found one that I wanted to read you and get your opinion on. And I think it'll be a good jumping off point for our discussion.

All right. So when my wife was pregnant, we agreed if the baby was to be born a girl, she would take my last name. If it was a boy, it would be her last name. Of course, she ended up taking my last name. They have a daughter. And this is important to the dilemma that happened this morning. My wife's family runs a few restaurants that happen to be named after their last name. When my wife was pregnant, my mother-in-law was very persistent on the baby having the family

name. We argued about it constantly. Ever since this, my mother-in-law throws shade every now and then calling my daughter miss her last name and asking when I'm going to change her last name to hers. On my daughter's birthday gifts and birthday present, she will purposefully write the wrong last name. It gets on my nerves heavily, but I try to keep it to myself. I ask my wife why her mother does this, and she claims she wanted the family name to carry on.

This morning, they came over for breakfast and decided to give my daughter early Christmas presents. I noticed they again wrote the wrong last name and were calling her the wrong last name. I corrected my mother-in-law and told her she was using the wrong last name. She kept using it, so I simply said, I feel slightly disrespected right now, and I'll be damned if I'm going to be disrespected in my own home. My mother-in-law's demeanor changed, and she said she felt it was disrespectful. I didn't give my daughter my wife last name. I was very upset and told her she should leave. My wife jumped in and told me to stop that it's not a big deal. My wife's been upset all morning saying, I should apologize so that it's not awkward tomorrow. Am I the asshole? So what do you

think about this? A lot of things. Dive right in. Well, I mean, first of all, this it is different maybe than other dilemmas, but it sounds very similar to in-law dilemmas across the board, right? Which is the in-law has an opinion or something that they prefer, something that they do that the other partner doesn't appreciate or feels like is violating boundaries or something like that. And it becomes a conflict. And then the child of the in-law, the other partner, is saying, it's not a big deal or please don't start conflict or do we really have, to like, you know, I know that it's a big deal. I know my mom's being a jerk or whatever, but we don't really have to start something over it. And so it's really common. It can happen

with a last name. I've never heard that one before. But it can also happen with where are we spending the holidays or how do we discipline our kids or what school does our kid go to or whatever it is. So very, very common. Like as I was listening, I was just thinking a few things on on both ends, you know, number one, was this a wee decision to have the daughter have that last name? Or was it a him decision? And I think that really matters for the couple. They're going to have to come to terms with which one of those things it was. If it was a wee decision, then nobody's the asshole here. This is complicated. So I read the, you know, there's sometimes I read those and I'm like, whoa, somebody's really the asshole here.

Agreed, agreed. But nobody's really the asshole here. I actually don't even think the mom's that big of an asshole, the in-law mom. So if it was a wee decision, then what's happening with the wife? You know, why isn't she able to take that decision to her mother and say, Mom, you know, I know you don't like this. I know it's not what she wanted. You know you love our last name.

and me and my partner decided that this is really what we wanted to do in our family culture. You have to remember, there's also different family cultures, right? So in our family, in our family culture, we decided we wanted her to have the same last name. Something that is so important when dealing with in-laws is that the child of that in-law is actually, should be the one that is most in charge of the communication. So that person should be going to their parent and they should be using we language. Not I'm going to throw my partner under the bus language of, oh, can you just leave him alone? You know, he made the decision.

I don't want to upset him. But we made this decision. And if we're going to change our minds, we're going to do it together and we'll let you know. And this is what we expect from you. You know, I know you might just be joking or whatever. But what we expect is that moving forward, you really respect the decision that we make. So on the partner's behalf, she needs to be able to have those conversations with her mother if this was a we decision.

Now, if they were in therapy with me, I'd be really curious, how did they even come to this decision? You know, I'd ask them, did you decide this together, or did you feel like this is just the way it's done? Because if the wife doesn't agree and always wanted her last name to be the daughter's last name, whether she said it out loud or not, what might be happening is she might not be speaking up because she doesn't fully agree either. So she might be thinking, I wanted it to be my last name too, or I think that we made a bad decision. And so they're going to have to come to terms

with what are they going to do moving forward if she wasn't on board? The other piece that I think is really important here is that when we are marrying into a family, we are not going to like everything that the other person's parents do. And I think there is a lot on social media right now that's actually harming in-law relationships more than helping, where it's like about controlling the in-law instead of about figuring out like what's an important boundary versus like what do you just have to accept because this is a different human being with a different personality and a different family culture. And they're not your family of origin and they're not you. So I see so many things on social media where it's like, I told my mother-in-law, I don't like plastic toys, and she bought

my kid a plastic toy, and now I'm not going to let her over to the house anymore. And I'm like, goodness gracious. Like, open the plastic toy, say thank you, put it on a shelf, put it away if you're really upset. But, like, that doesn't, that's not like this person's trying to harm you actively. It's different if you said, my mother-in-law takes my kid to the pool without swimmies on and almost lets them drown, even though I've talked to them about it. So this is another thing where I would actually, and I'm a pretty direct therapist, I would question him, like, why is this irking you so much? Like, you and your wife have decided this. This is your kid's name everywhere. It is on their birth certificate. It's at school. Their friends are going to know them by your last name.

Can you just let the mother write the name on the gift? Yeah, yeah. And like, what's the deal? You know, it feels like disrespect, sure. So then your wife needs to talk and say, hey, are you trying to disrespect us? Are you just being silly? Like, what's going on? And then the other piece of it is he should not have done that in front of the family. He should have waited until after talked to his wife and asked his wife to intervene or they could have intervened together as a unit. Hey, what happened yesterday wasn't cool. You know, please don't do that tomorrow. If you do, you know, I'm going to rip the tags off, Mom. And we're not doing that anymore. But I think that there was just a lot of moves here where people didn't know their roles. Nobody really knows what

they're supposed to be doing and they're violating each other's roles. And that's creating more conflict. Yeah. I so agree with you. And it sounds like you're speaking to the fact that like the couple needs to be a team. Yes. Right? When it comes to in-law relationships. But also there is this jockeying for power, right? Of like, especially I think if you feel like your spouse doesn't choose you all the time in other situations, you're like, oh, you need to choose me against your mom. I need to be more important. And these moments become like a battlefield for power and like certifying like I'm the most important person in your life. When it could be something, I think it sounds like you're saying like they could joke about it in their own time of like, oh my gosh, can you believe your

mom keeps writing that on the car? Like what is wrong with her? Like it's funny. Like it's like such a silly thing that she does instead of it being, you know, a battlefield again for power. Yeah, like make a joke. Like, oh, your mom must think you had a virgin birth because apparently, apparently I'm not involved. But I think they can't joke about it because something's happening between them. Exactly. And it's being diffused and, you know this, you're a family therapist through triangulation.

So we're triangulating the conflict to the mom. But if they felt like a strong unit, if the husband felt like, You know what? My wife has told her mom. My wife totally agrees that this is like wacky. Like, why is this happening? She's on my side. It's happening anyway. Can we joke about it? Can we roll our eyes about it? If it's not funny, not everybody likes humor. I get that. If it's not funny, can we find ways to offer each other's support and comfort privately? And do I trust my wife here? Like this sounds more like an issue with like, I don't trust the situation. I feel like these people are trying to take this decision we've made away from us. I feel like somebody here isn't after our best

interests or my best interest. And so you and your partner need to be on the same page. Your mother-in-law is not married to you. And so while we'd like to think that, you know, she would have insight and change and act as if she is married to you and make changes with the way she behaves because of that, she's not necessarily going to. So what can you do with your partner so that you both feel more secure together? Yeah, I'm also thinking about

with this last name thing that it reminds me of debates between in-laws over things just like religion, traditions, who gets to do what, where there's this thing of like, oh, well, the child belongs to our family. And in our family, we do X, Y, and Z. and this last name thing can be a way of like pushing one side out, right?

Like the dad could feel cut out because now the baby has the last name on the other side. And I feel like I hear about these situations a lot where it's, again, jockeying for power over like, how are we going to raise this child and how is this child going to be a reflection of our family and have enough of our family in their life? Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, I think that that is huge with last names because they're very symbolic. I'm also curious, like, what's the culture, you know, is the wife from a culture where the mother's last name would usually have been integrated somehow, either with a hyphen or actually become the last name of the daughter or whatever? I don't know any of that. But it's so much more than just a last name. It's about, like, who this child belongs to. and whether or not they're going to get to continue their connection with dad, mom, grandmother. Yeah. The question I hear a lot from people is, like, who gets to be the priority? Is it the partner or the parent? And of course, I know both of us will answer this and like, well, it depends on the situation.

I'm wondering if you can speak to that, like how to manage that split between how do I prioritize my parents, needs and feelings and interest and also be on the same team as my partner. Yeah, I mean, I think that that's such a hard question for therapists to answer because it's so nuanced. I mean, if something truly harmful was happening, you would say, of course, you're prioritizing your partner here because that's abusive or it's dangerous or whatever it is. Now, when it's something like this, it becomes a little bit muddy. But what I would say to somebody is you do have to prioritize the unit.

but sometimes prioritizing the unit doesn't mean diminishing other units and as a team you have to figure out what does that look like so this is kind of complex but if you think about prioritizing the unit you actually could be harming the unit if you're kicking your wife's mother out of the house because of what she put on a name tag so true so you know you want to be protected but you also have to think gosh like if i kick this woman who otherwise loves my child, you know, really annoys me, but this is, this is the role on Christmas. They love my child. They're here for this.

If I kick them out on Christmas, how is this going to hurt our unit? And so both people here, they are vying for different needs. And in a healthy partnership, you're not going to deal with us perfectly, but you're going to be able to see both. And so I would ask her to think, how is this impacting your husband? and what can you do so he knows you have your back? That's the most important thing. We can't fix mother-in-law, but what can you do so he knows you have his back?

And that might be that when your mom gets there, you, in a funny way, say, Mom, cut this out. I'm taking these tags off. We're not doing this today. But also, I would say to him, this is two-sided. So how does she know you have her back? Because in that message on Reddit, when I'm hearing her say is, like, this isn't a big deal.

What I hear underneath that is please don't start a problem with people I love. And so if she's saying, please don't start a problem with people I love, you need to care and consider how can I make sure I have her back. And so having her back might look like being like, I know you want your mother to stay. I'm not going to say anything today, but I expect you to say something. I expect you to remove the tag. And then you have each other's backs. You both matter here. Let's stop making so much of it about putting the tension between you into the mother-in-law. You have to deal with that together. I love that. So how can we make sure that really both relationships are being prioritized in a safe way that makes sense

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the food's actually going to be good and good for me. So if you would also like to get easy meals delivered straight to your door, you can go to hellofresh.com slash home free and use the code home free for free breakfast for life. That means you get one breakfast item per box while subscription is active. That's free breakfast for life at hellofresh.com slash home free with the code home free. So the other big thing I think that happens between in-laws and the kids is that when two people get married, the other partner can notice the dysfunction in the other person's family much more easily than they can. And sometimes this becomes really toxic, right? Of like, have you ever

notice that your mom does this? I don't like the way your dad talks to your mom. And you see a lot of this like bringing up of issues by the other partner. And I think sometimes that can cause issues in the couple and also issues with the family. Absolutely. I'm wondering, like, what's the best way to handle bringing up or not bringing up maybe dysfunction that you see in your partner's family? When it comes to in-laws, like one concept that I think is so important for couples to understand is the concept of triangulation because I think most in-law issues are all about that. So I was actually teaching on triangulation yesterday. And if we think about it, what it really is is it's two people are feeling destabilized between each other. So to make

themselves seem more stable, they push their tension into something else. And it could be by like venting to a third party. It could be by having the third party be a messenger of something. But it can also be by gossiping about a third party in order to handle a conflict you actually have with the other person. And so, number one, sometimes when people are bringing up all the dysfunction in their partner's family, it's actually because they're trying to bring up dysfunction they see in their partner in a passive-aggressive way. And so they're saying something like, I am so shocked with how your dad never cuts the lawn. Your parents' house is like a mess. And like what I was growing up, my dad always cut the lawn. And when I hear these stories, I'll actually say, like, so what are you actually

trying to say to your partner. Yeah. And at first they'll say nothing. I'm talking to them about their parents and I don't like what their parents do. But often there's a message they're trying to send to the partner. It could be a message like you're lazy and I don't think you do enough around the house and you're just like your dad and look at where you learned it from. It could also be an empathetic stance. Like, I feel so bad for you when I see the way your dad treats your mom, you know, that makes me sad because I think about you as a kid. But the vulnerable conversation isn't being had. And so if that's the case, I really work with people to learn to talk about

why that matters to them. You know, I'm pointing out that I see your mom yell at your dad because when I see that, it actually reminds me as something I'm concerned about between you and I. When you get upset with me, you yell at me sometimes. And I can kind of see maybe where that came from, but they're not the point. the point is is how you talk to me. So bringing that back between the two. So another reason that people do this is because they feel contempt towards the other family. And they're showing their

disdain and their contempt by constantly bringing up issues. Contempt is really toxic. And so it's one thing to dislike the other family. It's another to belittle or always take a one-up position. And I really encourage people, can you figure out how to talk about what you notice, but in a way that is about how it impacts, again, it impacts you. Now, if it's not impacting you, then you have to get clear of why are you bringing this up to your partner? Do you just want them to hate their family too, or do you want them to be on your side? And so then that comes back to what you brought up last time, which was sometimes we just want to know people have our back. And so we might bring up, and I'm not innocent of this. I've done this to my husband before, and he's done it to me. Yeah, yeah.

But maybe I'm bringing it up because I just want him to say, yeah, you know, I see that too. I see when my, you know, I see when my mom does X, Y, and Z. And it irritates me too. I don't know. It's always been that way. And sometimes I just need that. And so there's a lot of coaching and figuring it out. Is it, I just want you to have my back?

Is it I hate your family and I don't know how to get over it? Or is it I have something to say to you, but I'm using them as the conduit to get it in. Yeah. From what you just said, like, I'm having a light bulb moment with myself that sometimes I notice I will point things out maybe in my husband's family that make me, like, make me have questions or be like, I'm not used to that as a way to like compensate for maybe things in my family that I know that he doesn't like. Ooh. Like if somebody criticizes my family, I'm like, oh, well, then I can criticize yours too. Like, you're not perfect. Yeah. And it, again, is this weird, like, nobody wants to be the dysfunctional one, right?

In a relationship, nobody wants to be the one that's like, oh, your family has problems and mine is good. And so I think sometimes we get into this, like, competitiveness almost of, like, whose family is the good one, whose family is the good influence, and that can be really destructive, you know, to a marriage. Really destructive. and it can also be a way to kind of jockey for decision making. So for sure, I can think about even like a real example in my own life, which is like I grew up and I went to private school and my husband went to public school. They're both fine. We both ended up in the same place in life. Exactly. But, you know, there's been times where like I've said things like, well, you know, my parents made like a huge sacrifice. I'll say things like that. And it's nasty because it's, it's insinuating that the other family didn't make a huge sacrifice, right?

Yeah, yeah. So I'm like bragging about my own family, like, oh, it wasn't because we were wealthy. It's because, like, I didn't get new shoes and that's how I got to da-da-da-da. Yeah. And there's this insinuation that's critiquing the other family. But it was when I do it, I'm often doing it to jockey for my own position. A hundred percent. Like, I want to send our kid to private school.

So, like, we might not be able to afford it, but like, the good, families that make sacrifices like mine, they do it. Yes. Yes. Yes. This is like an episode of therapists are real people too. Yeah, exactly. We can also be toxic. We're so toxic. Luckily, like, my husband knows I'm a therapist. He can be like, is that something you would suggest to one of your clients to say? That is the worst when they do that. Like, I'm like, okay. hey, we need to take a break because now I'm going to see red. I'm like, no, I would tell them that they're being horrible. Exactly, exactly.

Okay, so then I want to ask you, like, let's say there's a couple where there is something actually really bad and abusive happening between a parent and the adult child, the spouse, right? Like, they're getting yelled at, they're being criticized. It's getting to a point where it's having a really negative impact on their life. How would you suggest that the partner brings up that behavior or the impact that it's having? Yeah, so they need to bring it up strongly with their parent. This is the one place where they say I.

With other types of decisions, it's we. We've decided we're going away for the holidays this year. We won't be at your house. We've decided that, you know, we don't give our kids juice boxes. We've decided all of that. But this is the time where you say I. because you are going to create a secure relationship for your partner. You're going to stand strong, and you're going to say to your parent,

I have noticed how you treat my partner. So you start with, I've noticed. So you're letting them know you see it, that they don't get away with this, right? This is very hard because interacting with a parent and you are so great at talking about parent issues, it puts you in a child role. So it's very hard to interact with a parent from a tall, strong, adult role. It's very hard, but you have to. You have to say, I see what you're doing. I see that when you come to our house, you put Whitney down. You put her down, and it's not Whitney telling me

this. I see it. So that part's really important. I notice, because if you say, you know, Whitney came to me and told me that what the other night you were in the kitchen and you said something and what's going to happen is that that parent is going to say, why is Whitney always starting trouble. Yep, yep. I noticed. I walked in and I saw her face and whatever you said to her was not okay. Or I've noticed that at the holidays, you do this weird thing where you keep everybody in the group message and you leave Whitney out. Why do you do that? I see this. So number one, I noticed. Number two, I expect. Number two is I expect. I expect that when you come to our house, you are kind and whatever to my partner.

I expect that if we continue a relationship, that when we tell you that you're not allowed to drink in the house because you vomit in front of our kids, I expect that you do not drink in the house. And if you do this again, this is what will happen. And that you have a very strong idea of what will happen. And you've got to stick with it. If you dare to come near our house again with alcohol, when, every time you come, you start cursing out my partner, then you will leave and you will not be

invited back to the house. You will only see the grandkids when we meet at a park, and it will just be me. You will not see Whitney anymore. If you keep leaving us out of the group texts and then acting as if you didn't, what we are going to do is X, Y, and Z. So you have to be very strong. I see it myself, I need this to happen. And if it doesn't happen, then this is what's going to really truly be the outcome. Because you have to be a protective partner to your spouse. Yeah, I love that. So really being like strong detailing, if A happens, this is what's going to happen next and using your power. So let's flip that then. Let's say you have a parent who's treating their child very poorly and the spouse notices and maybe brings it up to their partner

and their partner either sees it, doesn't see it, like how would you recommend they bring that up to their partner, that they're being treated poorly by a parent? By a parent. Yeah. So we were talking before about sometimes this is being used as like a conduit to criticism. Yes. So you check yourself, am I just doing this to criticize for whatever reason? Because I'm irritated with my partner.

I'm irritated to that. or am I concerned? And if it's because you're concerned, you want to dig into that concerned place. It's actually really easy to accidentally move into the contemptuous critical place when you're concerned of like, I just can't stand your effing dad. You know, if he comes over here again, I'm just so sick of how he treats you. But really being able to be softer with your partner and say something, again, I noticed, hey, I've noticed when your dad comes over, he kind of puts you down. You know, what do you feel about that? So what you've noticed and then being curious and sharing how you feel when you see it.

But I really want to encourage you not to share how you think your partner feels. So, you know, when I see them say those things, I start to feel like uncomfortable or like sad for you. How do you feel? Sometimes we make the mistake of like, I know that you have to feel angry when he says those things. Like, why don't you do anything about it? So you don't want to criticize your partner's reaction to it. You don't want to put words into their mouth. Speak for yourself. This is what I've noticed. This is how I feel when I see it. And then be curious. What do you think about it? And really letting your partner talk about it. And you might say,

you know, if you have a bigger concern, like it impacts, you know, it makes me uncomfortable because the kids see it, might have to move into a problem solving conversation of like, you know, your dad curses at you. and I don't like that in front of the kids, what can we do? But sometimes it might be enough for you just to let them know, I see it. Is there anything I can do to support you? If not, like, I'll have your back. I have your back. I'm there for you, but I'm sorry because it's really not fair behavior.

If it's, like, dangerous, I'm trying to think the parent, like, gets really drunk and then drives your spouse home or something like that frequently. Right. There's physical altercations, things like that. Danger. you actually probably do have to be more tough. Like, yeah, hello, we're married, you know, your dad comes over here drunk with a gun and threatens you. Like, he is not allowed here anymore. Yeah. But I think most of the time it's more of like, oh, that felt kind of crappy, you know, what do you think about it? And

is there anything you need from me? Right. So allowing them to speak for their experience and not putting words in their mouth, which is hard to do it because we get so triggered, you know, by watching these dynamics. Oh my gosh. It's so hard to do. And I'm like such a protective person that if I see mistreating someone else, I like boil. I'm like, get out of my house, you jerk. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So I think when this happens, like when a partner brings up dysfunction in their spouse's family and their spouse starts to wake up to it and be like, you're right, I want to set boundaries around that. I find that the in-law, the other partner, gets blamed a lot for things changing in the family. So being like, we didn't have problems with this before you came around.

Yes. Why does that happen, you think? Oh, they're the outsider. Yeah. True. True. And again, it's triangulation. It's like, okay, me and my child have tension now. Who can I, who's the third person I can blame? Yes. because then I don't have to deal with it directly. I don't have to say to my kid, is this actually how you've always felt? Mm-hmm. You know, and hear them. Because most likely your kid will say, you know, I wasn't super aware, but like, yes,

you know, growing up I did always wish X, Y, and Z. You don't have to have that conversation. Instead, you're saying this third party, they're the problem. You and I are not the problem. So we don't have to deal with any difficult conversations. I just get to be angry and put that on this other person who's almost in some ways, like, they're not anonymous, but they're not a part of our nuclear family. Right.

They're disposable in some way. They're disposable. Yeah. Yeah. It's so hard, I think, to be that person because I truly believe this, and I'm sure you do too on some level, that, like, people want to be close with their in-laws, right? They want to have good relationships. They have, most people I hear have this vision of, like, I want everybody to be around.

around each other. I want it to be a healthy, happy environment. And so I think when you start pointing out issues and wanting your spouse to be protected and then you get blamed for being the one that is like destroying the family, it can hurt because you're like, no, no, no, that's the opposite of what I'm trying to do. That's the opposite. Yeah. I think that I would say 99% of people I've met with, they go in with a huge fantasy of a big family, right? Like, I haven't really met anybody who's like, oh, no, I don't want anything to do with these people. Most people that I work with, they're like, it really bums me out. I always, I always imagined that, like, me and my partner's mom would go get, like, wine together on Fridays. I always imagined that I would get to

be a part of the cookie parties at Christmas. I always imagined that, you know, I would get to invite all the guys to the game with me. You know, there's this hope that it becomes a big family and that everybody does things together and they get along. Yes. And that's just not humans. Like, we are all so different. We have different family cultures. We want to keep our family cultures the same, even when we're aware that it's not perfect. And so there is a lot of, there's going to be a lot of resistance to the change that happens just by you and your partner building a relationship and a family together. It's hard for people to lean into that change. So true. And I think that brings us back to kind of how you started the episode that there's a lot of information online about like really

strict crazy boundaries within laws of like you did this and I'm cutting you out of my life. And I'm wondering if you can speak to like what is the importance of having your inlaws be involved in your life? And what are some of the benefits of that? Well, first of all, unless they were, horrible people to your spouse, they raised your spouse who you love. Yeah. And so whatever weird stuff they do, they did that with your spouse and it resulted in somebody you love. It's so true. I'll see posts, and I'm not throwing shade on anybody, but I'll see posts where it's like, oh, my mother-in-law told my child to say, please, and that's not what we do in our family. And I get, it really annoys me. And I'm like, your mother-in-law probably told your husband to say, please, too, and he says, please. So great.

If you don't want to tell your kid to say, please, fine. But like, this is a person that obviously bestowed something lovely. And it comes with the annoying parts. It comes with things that might be slightly toxic. But you have to be able to also look past and say, it's always easier for us to see the bad. but like what is all the cool stuff that they did that made your partner who they are and don't you want your child if you have children to be a part of that and if you don't have children how can you lean into wanting to get to know that part of them that your husband got to know or your wife got to know so intimately um the second thing that i think is really important is that children are going to experience many people in the world and you cannot protect them from that forever And in-laws are among the first groups of people outside of the nuclear unit that children start

to see. There's different ways of being. There's different rules. There's different behaviors. It might feel different than my own families. And they get to start practicing how do they be themselves with others? So you can help your child. If you don't like that your in-law always corrects your child, you can help your child.

So what's it like in the world? When somebody interacts with you differently than mom and dad, we do a gentle parenting style. These people are more authoritative. You know, so when you're with authoritative people, how do you still hold on to yourself, honey? You know, how do you not crumble because someone speaks to you differently out in the world? If someone gives you a juice box and we don't drink juice boxes in our house, what do you do about that? Do you drink the juice box anyway? And that's just your treat?

or in our family, do we teach you how to say, hey, no, I'd rather have water. So it gives opportunity in a safe way. And again, not all in-laws are safe. We know that. 100%. You know, sadly, the most abuse towards people comes from family members. But with your safe in-laws who are just weirdos sometimes, and that's it. They're not unsafe.

Your child can learn how to be with people that aren't you. And then they're good, then they go to school and they're not going to crumble just because their teacher is a little different than you. They're not going to crumble just because their friends, families are a little bit different than you. They're going to know how to interact. And so I think those are two really important reasons. I mean, the third is just cultural in general. I mean, even if you think you're the same culture, you're not. And so you get really beautiful traditions from other families.

You learn things from other families. And your child gets the opportunity to decide. You might not like the traditions, but your child gets to decide if they do. Yeah. And especially I think when children come into the picture, right? There's more of a pressure to maintain those bonds and a desire to because you want your child to be connected to someone other than you and to know their history, obviously only if it's safe. And some people have to make really difficult decisions to not keep those people around. But I like your distinction between like what is abusive and what is just like different or weird or maybe not preferable.

Not preferable. They do something that you're like, golly, you really should read a book about something. Because why do you talk like that to people? Yeah. And that's also where context comes in, I think, especially if you are from different cultures, different religions, different backgrounds of trying to get to know the world that your in-laws grew up in and the culture that they are from and what they were raised with, you know, to like, that's why they speak that way. And they may not be knowledgeable or understanding, but they also raised their children in a different world than you're raising yours in. And I feel like context helps so much in these like weird, frustrating situations. It helps so much. And if you can have the context, you do have to

accept it. It's real. But you don't have to like love it. You don't have to make it a part of your family. But it might help to release the grip of some of it. You know, like, My mother-in-law, I love her so much, but she's very into food. She's, like, very strict about it, like, what's in it. I give my kid mac and cheese that's microwavable. And she's like, do you know how many da-da-da-da-da-da. And this, if I listen to all the Instagram advice, I would have no relationship with her. Oh, yeah. Because I would say, you're not allowed around my child when it comes to food. But I have a really good relationship with her because I've been able to talk to my child about food on my own. And so when his grandmother says something about mac and cheese being

bad, I then later say, what do you think about mac and cheese? And he decides, right? And he might say, well, if she says it's bad, it might be bad. And I can say, maybe it is. Do you not want me to give you mac and cheese anymore? And if he's like, no, then we don't come back and cheese. Or if he says, I don't know, I really like it. I say, I like it too. So let's keep eating it. Yeah. And there's there's like different reasons to like things or have things in certain moments and you can have such a conversation that isn't just about like demonizing grandma, but learning that like that's what's important to her, right? She's speaking from a place of that's what's important to her. And what's important to me sometimes is to eat mac and cheese because it makes me feel

better when I'm sad and I just want to have something comforting. And we have competing interests around that. And that's okay. And like allowing, I think it's beautiful that you're allowing your son to learn and understand like what's important to him when it comes to food. Yes. And we frequently will talk about the differences in our family, which I think is really nice. So instead of demonizing it, if he says like, well, why does my mom, why does my mom always let me do X, Y, and Z? Like, Omi wouldn't let me do that because there's things my mom does where I'm like, the heck where you thinking lady. And I love my mom. But, you know, he'll say that and I'll say, well, there's different things. You know, Omi does a really great job with daddy when he was little. She would do

A, B, and C. But you know what? My mom did a great job with Mommy when she was little, but she did it this way. And so those are just two different ways of being. Like, what do you think about that? And what do we do in our own family? You know, and he might be like, well, in our own family, you like to microwave food a lot. It's just like, yeah, I do, because I'm busy and I'm lazy. You know, mama microwaved food a lot, and I am fine. I made it. Right. Right. But you're bringing up such an important point that, like, your kids also notice when you are demonizing one side of the family or speaking negatively about them. And I think that's something we have to keep in check because they don't see what we see in them, right? Especially when

they're young. They're like, oh, I love my grandparents. They're so kind to me. And our grandparents can show up very different as grandparents than they did as parents, which can be true. triggering for the adult as well, like, oh, well, they never did that with me, you know, or you're going to know the real them one day. And like, we say these things that really alienate them from the children, which is also not helpful. So I appreciate you giving some good examples on, like, how to bridge that. Yeah, it's definitely hard, though. And it's not, you know, we're saying all of these kind of theoretical ways of thinking about it. And I recognize when you're in I mean, I'm a person that is married and has a child, going to have children.

And you are also, like, we understand that when it comes to real life, there's human emotions involved, there's fear involved on how it's going to impact you, your finances, your kids, your mental health, all of those types of things. But as much as you can, trying to kind of keep nuance and lean into your partner so that it's And us, we know that we have our own capsule. It's okay in our capsule. So whatever is happening on the outside, we're going to be protected from that. And then how do we just navigate this in a way that allows everyone to love us and to love our kids in a way that is beneficial?

Yeah. So if we have any in-laws listening to this, what are like one or two tips that you would give to help people be better in-laws? please stop criticizing look it up online look up what is criticizing you don't probably know as you're listening to me you're probably saying i don't criticize i love my son-in-law i love my daughter-in-law i'm just trying to help i only help them so please look up the definition so that you know what it is because i don't think most people know i actually give people the benefit of the doubt criticizing is, you know, when you notice a problem and then you're putting the problem inside of the other person in terms of their behavior or whatever it is. So, for example, yes, your grandchild might throw lots of tantrums. That is a problem. You are noticing the problem.

But then going to their parent that is not even your child and saying, you would, you really should. The word should, the word always, the word never. All of those are code for criticism. you really should be taking them and putting them on the step because I used to do that with my kid. Put a pause, be curious. Ask a question instead when you have a concern. Is there anything I could do to help you? That looks really hard. The other is try truly to listen to what is shared with you as a request. You know, we are so excited to have everybody over, but we're asking that no alcohol is there. Like, that might be a bummer to you because maybe you love having. a nice spritzer at dinner. But if you want to go over, are you able to respect your child and

their spouse as the adults that they are and come into their home with their rules? And I think that that's something that's really important and it's hard because you were the parent and it was your rules for many years. You threw the parties. You took care of everything. You did, you know, my mom, she comes to when I have, I love having big birthday parties for my son. It's my fave. But I like I'm super laid back. I don't wipe down all the chairs outside. I don't do all that. And she comes over and she's like,

it's starting in five minutes and all the chairs are filthy. I'm like, you know what? Big party at your house, wipe the chairs down. Big party at my house. It's a little bit more casual and that's what we're doing. So can you respect that they're adults that are kind of living their lives and functioning in their own way and go with the flow? And again, ask, be curious.

Like, do you want me to help with the chairs? Nope. Okay, great. Tell me where I should be. Exactly. Just the way you would have expected in your own home when your children were little, how did you want people to come into your home when you were having a party or when you were hosting? So just try to think about those things. Yeah, I love that. We forget what it felt like to be on the other end, right? Like our in-laws in that next generation, they experienced this type of criticism likely from the generation. the generation above them and it's like that just kind of flies away it flies away it was it's not the same right yeah exactly you are still their baby and so if an in-law is listening i know that this is still your baby yeah my child is going to be 40 and be my baby and i'm going to be like what did you

get that that mark checked yet honey i know that right i know and our kids are going to have the benefit of like having all this footage of us talking about how people should be good in law. So we'll have a very high standard. They'll be like, mom. Yeah. Leave me like. Exactly. Exactly.

Well, thank you so much. The last question that I like to end with because this podcast is called calling home is that if you got to call home one last time, who do you call and what do you say? That's so sad. I know. It's an emotion. question. So please answer it in the best way for you. I've actually thought about this before. I'm sure it's like an existential thing. I often think like if I was dying somewhere and I could

call, who do I call? And I've always been incredibly torn up. I know. By that, like, I'm like, I would, the first answer is always my mom. Yeah. I know. I've cried when I've answered this. But then I start to tear up, like then I'm like, but my sisters, I'm so close to my sisters. I would call my sisters. And then I'm like, why didn't I say my husband? Yeah. I know. I know. So I feel torn, but the first answer is always mommy. Yeah. So I'd probably call mommy. Yeah. I love that. Thank you so much, Liz, for taking the time today to speak with me. I am so excited for everyone to hear this episode. If you enjoyed this episode, episode, please like, subscribe, follow all the things, leave us a review wherever you get your podcast. This really helps the podcast. And I'm so grateful I read every review that I get. And we'll be back next week with another solo episode. Thank you all and have a great rest of your day. Thank you.