CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - The Divorce Myth: What Actually Harms Children vs. What Helps Them Heal with Michelle Dempsey-Multack

Episode Date: September 9, 2025

Whitney interviews Michelle Dempsey-Multack about how to protect children during divorce and co-parenting. They debunk the myth that divorce inherently harms children, exploring how the quality of the divorce experience—not the divorce itself—determines the impact on kids. The conversation includes practical strategies for healthy co-parenting, introducing new partners, and handling difficult conversations with children.Whitney Goodman is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and the founder of Calling Home, a membership community that helps people navigate complex family dynamics and break harmful cycles.Join the Family Cyclebreakers Club⁠⁠ Follow Whitney on Instagram | sitwithwhit Follow Whitney on YouTube | @whitneygoodmanlmft ⁠⁠Order Whitney’s book, Toxic Positivity⁠⁠ This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute  for professional mental health advice. 00:00 Debunking Divorce Myths: It's About How You Handle It 02:45 Staying Together for the Kids vs. Healthy Single Parenting 08:00 How to Have a Good Divorce: Separating Emotions from Parenting 13:14 Speaking Poorly About the Other Parent and Its Long-Term Impact 20:16 Balancing Protection with Facilitating Relationships 33:11 Introducing New Partners: Timing and Red Flags Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone and welcome back to The Calling Home Podcast. I'm your host, Whitney Goodman. I am so excited to have an interview episode for you today. Today, my guest is Michelle Dempsey Maltak. So without further ado, let's welcome Michelle to the Calling Home podcast. You know, I think the first thing I wanted to start with was I think there's a lot of misconceptions about divorce, how it impacts kids, co-parenting. And I see you out there fighting against some of these misconceptions. that what would you say are like the biggest things that are misunderstood about how divorce impacts kids? Yeah. I mean, I think very simply and probably, you know, this is a bit reductionistic, but the notion that divorce messes up the children. I think, you know, this is probably the most widely perpetuated myth and the thing that I fight against most only because, you know, research shows and what I've experienced and what I've seen is that it's not the divorce, right? Like, the divorce is a change. It's an adult decision, but it's a child's lived experience.

So the quality of that experience is what's going to affect them the most. And I'm not out here saying, like, they're not going to be affected if you get divorced. Of course, any change affects kids, you know, from divorce to your play date was canceled this afternoon. They need to be helped through change. But the key word there is help, right? They need to be helped through it. It's our job to help them through it.

And also not layer that help with hurt. You know, I think there are so many ways in which we tell our kids, it's going to be fine. And this is just, you know, a change of circumstances and where your parents live. And then it's anything but fine because we're involving them and all the things they shouldn't be involved in. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you took the words right out of my mouth that it's like really more about how the divorce is handled, right, than the divorce itself. And I think that for a lot of the adults that I work with, they grew up with this belief of like, we stay together for the kids. And I'm wondering if you

can talk about how that might actually be harmful and how that's evolved over time. I love that question because so many people will stop me and they'll say like, oh, I recognize you from social media. And man, like, had my parents gotten divorced, I probably wouldn't have the issues that I have. And I think this is such an interesting perspective because, you know, divorce will get a bad rap for messing up the kids, but we fail to recognize that our child's view on relationships and of themselves and their worth all stems from what they observe in the home. So if you're staying together for the kids and you plan on maintaining a home that is free of conflict and full of love and good energy and no tension, then great, stay together for the

kids. But if you're resentful of each other, if you're operating like roommates, if you're barely speaking and communicating, this will be the norm that your child is going to perpetuate or seek to accept from a partner later on. And so the question then becomes, what's worse for the child? A single, happy, thriving, healthy parent or too very unhealthy, you know, I mean, you know, like if you have a fight with your husband, you're immediately, your energy is pulled somewhere else. You're not giving to your kids the way that you want to or intend to. And so if it's a lifetime of this for a childhood for 18 years, it really has negative impacts. Yeah, it's so true. And when I talk to adults who have parents who were divorced, I think that when you ask them,

like, how was that time in your life? What was it like? Typically, they're not describing the divorce. They're describing, like, the actions of their parents, the behavior that led to the divorce. I don't know if that's your experience as well. It's, again, divorce is a word that describes an action, right? It's like it literally means like the legal dissolution of marriage. It's the worlds in which our children have to live after it that they're going to remember. You know, it's, it's, let's say you have to move. your child has to move from their childhood home to a new home right they move they adjust but if that

house is constantly on fire that's what they're going to remember and and then they will resent the divorce because of all the things that came after and hurt them so you know it's i think we are moving towards a space where people are understanding more about the consequences of their actions if they're able to be self-aware which surprisingly many divorcing people are not but you know i i i i I've been asked questions and interviews for years now. I've been doing this six years. And we've moved so far away from the myths and more into the understanding, which makes me feel somewhat hopeful about this. But, you know, this all stems from my own childhood and what I experienced and witnessed. And that's what drives, you know, all of this for me. Yeah. I so agree

with you because I think that actually the myths and the comments that used to exist in like the divorce space. I am seeing really being mimicked when we talk about family estrangement. And I've said this before that, you know, people always ask like, well, I want to hear the other person's side of the story or like maybe you were. And we used to say those things about abusive or toxic marriages, right? Like, well, maybe you were really hard to be married to or all these comments that people would make to shame people who had to get divorces. 100%. And I think we forget that when we look at divorce, we're not just looking at the person who is getting divorced, right? Like the person who is getting divorced who made that choice, what they experienced may seem

minimal to somebody else. But the way it affects them all stems from who they are, what they're built like, what their temperament is, what they were conditioned to feel or experience as a child. And so it is so subjective and so not fair to say, like, well, that's no reason to get divorced. Yeah. Yeah, it's so true, especially because, like, often what we hear as the story of the divorce is, is not ever like the full story of what was actually going on, right? Well, you know, it's it's the perception, right? And something that I always talk about, because I'm really big on helping people see the other side and see the other perception. Everyone is entitled to their own perception of their experience. And what I find with a lot of

co-parents who stay in conflict, is they're constantly trying to shift the other person's perspective or narrative of what went wrong or what happened or you have to see things my way because that's the right way. And perception is personal. And that's within the divorcing couple dynamic and then for the outside world too. And so, you know, I can say, I have, I'm sure you do too. You have clients where you're like in the back of your mind, they're like, okay, like I've heard worse, but it's huge for them. And it's for many different reasons. And so we have to honor that for sure. So I want to speak to like a couple of different groups because I think that there are the adults that listen to this show that are like, okay, my parents would fight a lot. They got divorced. That's

impacted me in certain ways. And then we also have adults who listen to this show who might be thinking about getting divorced themselves. And they are worried about doing the same thing to their children, maybe that they were impacted by. And so I want to hear a little bit about, like, what is a good way to get divorced? Like, how can parents handle this in the best way for their kids? I think the best way to get divorced is to recognize that, again, this is an adult decision. Like, you can make that adult decision and be confident about it. whether or not, you know, the other person likes that or not, but just because you've made that decision, the parenting doesn't stop. The parenting piece still exists. And separating your

emotions about the divorce for the person you're divorcing or maybe what they did to you or didn't give you, that's the only way to have a good co-parented experience. You know, a good divorce in the legal sense, I mean, I would say something that doesn't end up in litigation. And often times litigation is not over like millions of dollars hidden in like international bank accounts. It's over like 60-40 versus 50-50 or what time are we doing pickups and drop-offs. And those are the things that will keep people in court and stuck and fighting and impact the kids because research shows the longer the divorce process drags out, my parents' divorce process lasted 10 years, which explains a lot. But the longer it drags out, the more it's going to impact

the children. So if you want to have a good divorce and have the least impact on your children, separate your emotions and stay out of litigation. Something that's so interesting about that is I see a lot of people doing that, right? Like drawing things out, making it difficult, but also at the same time saying, I'm doing it for my kids. Like I'm trying to do X for my kids. And I get the sense that they can't really separate their own interests from what's actually good for their children. Right, 100% because ego is on overdrive in the divorce process. And the divorce process is designed to trigger your ego and put you in this fear mindset, right? Like, how am I going to pay my bills?

What am I going to see my kids? What is this person going to say to my kids about me? So every part of you is just in this like fight or flight defensive mode. and I work with people who are struggling so hard to say, okay, you know what, they cheated on me, but that doesn't mean they can't be a good parent because unfortunately there's too many people with the mindset and too many people in social media perpetuating the mindset of if they're bad to you, they can't be good parents, you know? And so I think the people who are saying I'm doing this for my kids.

I'm just going to do what's best for my kids are the ones who really do want to be able to separate their stuff. I think the people who do work the hardest on this, I have to say, are the people like myself who experienced massive childhood trauma at the hands of a parent or in the wake of a terrible divorce. And they're like, no way do I want to put my children through this. Yeah. How do you keep your child's needs like top of mind when that ego or your own hurt is taking over anything? I think, well, for me, I've had to do a lot of work. around my triggers and wounds because there was a part of me when I was getting divorced that was like, I mean, obviously I'm getting divorced.

Look at my past. You know, look at what I went through. And nobody put me in therapy. Nobody reached out to support me. And I was a mess. And so it was like only natural that I was going to get divorced, right? Statistically and like emotionally. And I remember very clearly thinking because everyone around me was like,

screw him he shouldn't have time with your daughter and why would you share custody with him he how do you know she's going to be safe and da da da da and it was like no i'm not going to do to her what was done for me or to me right which was a complete elimination of any chance of a relationship with my dad by the time i was 11 years old and he had a lot to do with that but i i wanted my daughter to have the opportunity to grow up she was two years old when we split with two parents who were present and loved her. And if she had to come to, she has to come to a certain point in her life where she decides, I don't like the way in which this parent is treating me. That's for her to decide. Like I was never going to be the deciding factor in that because I know that results in a lot

of resentment. And our divorce was not her problem. Our divorce was our problem. And I knew that all I could do was give her the childhood. I don't know if I'm sure you're familiar with Dr. Robert Emery's Children's Bill of Rights and Divorce. But the number one thing on that list is every child should have a right to a life that's as close to what it would have been had their parents stayed together. And what that essentially means is a childhood. Because the second you involve your children in the divorce, you're robbing them of their childhood. And so that was really clear to me from day one that I could, I could. I knew that I had to rise above my triggers and my feelings. otherwise my daughter would end up just like I did as a child. And I don't want that for her.

I think it's amazing that you have that perspective and you're able to, some people have the perspective that you have that they haven't done the work. And so they just end up perpetuating it unknowingly. Yeah. And I want to give grace to the people who don't come, but who aren't children of divorce because you don't know how horrible it could be unless you're in that situation. and you won't see the effects on your children until they're grown up and want nothing to do with you. So I hold space for that, but this is also why I'm like screaming into the void all the time about it. I want to talk about, you know, parents speaking poorly about one another. This is something that I hear about a lot in the estrangement space. And some parents will say, you know, I don't

have a relationship with my child because the other parent talked poorly about me. And I'm wondering if you can give us some insight into how you see this playing out. This is probably the most damaging thing. So here's the thing. Like, I remember for me, whenever I didn't do something or whenever I did something my father didn't like or if I said something, if I spoke up for myself or spoke back to him or tried to protect myself around him, the first thing he would say was you're a bitch just like your mother. And it's still like I still hear it in my head and I picture it and I can feel in my body

the way it felt when I was 10 years old. And then you'll have parents who are like, I never talk bad about the other parent. And that's great. But still the child knows that you're at odds with this parent in some way. And so even if you never sit them down and say your dad's this or your mom's that or I hate your other parent because of this, but then you'll say, you're just like your dad in a time, you know, when the child pisses you off or does something you didn't like, they're going to internalize that as, well, they don't like my other parent because they divorced them. And now I'm acting like that. And so it affects the child self-esteem. So unfortunately, not only do you have to not talk bad about the other parent, you have to talk, like, highlight

the good parts of them because that child knows full well that they are half of them. of each of you. And as much as I love my mom, and obviously she was my rock and preferred parent in the wake of what I experienced, I would still have moments that I can think back to where even though I was estranged from my father by the time I was 12, if I did something in high school that she didn't like, she'd be like, just like your dad, you know? And it was like, nothing makes a child feel more like garbage than comments like those, even if you're not comparing the child in that way. If you just say, figures, your dad can't do anything right. Of course, he forgot the sneakers. Well, when I forget something as a child, which I'm going to do, are you going to think I'm bad like

dad? You know, so it really impacts their self-esteem. And when they grow up, what happens is they resent you for it. Like, you're not going to be mad at dad for being forgetful. They're going to be mad at you for saying the thing that made them feel bad about themselves. You're so right. Because while you can get divorced, your child can't separate themselves genetically, biologically, from that parent. Even if they're estranged, you still carry that with them. Exactly. I guess on the other end of the spectrum, I think there are people who are divorcing people who really are not good parents. Like, they're actually doing something hurtful.

They're not doing a good job. And I'm wondering how you balance trying to facilitate that relationship with also, protecting the child. It's the hardest thing in the world. And to be clear, some people will say, most people will say if they're getting divorced with young kids, I can't give this person any custody. I do everything. I do bedtime. I do the carpools. I do this. I do that. They don't know how to do anything. And to that, I always say, well, we have to give them the opportunity to rise to the occasion. Because if they are not good parents in the marriage, that doesn't mean that they're, they don't have the opportunity to be.

It just means that probably all the conflict within the relationship. And the fact that in a lot of ways, mom is the preferred parent early on, that could be standing in their way of their full potential as a parent. So my first response to that is always like, let's see if we can have this person rise to the occasion. Because if we can, even though it would kill your ego to be wrong, right? Like it is the best thing for your kid. I see this over and over again, everyone, even myself.

I was like, there's no way he can handle a night alone with Bella, let alone 50-50. And he's the most hands-on 50-50 parent, I know. So nine times out of 10, all the things that you think they're doing wrong or that they can't do, they may very well end up surprising you. True. However, there is, you know, the other side of it where this person is detrimentally harmful to the child, whether through emotional abuse, that is incredible. incredibly hard to prove in court, physical abuse, which not as hard to prove in court, but not often

acted upon. So this is where I tell people, and this is much easier said than done, that you can only control your child's relationship with you. Like, their parented experience with you is the only thing you have control over. So if you make that time about pointing out all the other things, the other parent does wrong or being upset about their time spent with the other parent or shaming them because they happen to tell you that like, oh, dad didn't make us brush our teeth this morning or whatever the case is, you're then taking away from your positive experience with the child. So if you can

have faith in your own parenting abilities and understanding that it takes one stable and secure parent in order for a child to thrive, that helps cushion the sharp edges there a little bit because children inevitably, it doesn't take long before they realize who's who and what's what and where they feel safe. And they will start pulling away from the parent who doesn't feel safe. But if there is that parent who doesn't feel safe and then you're over here constantly like angry and up in arms over the unsafe parent, guess what? You feel unsafe too. Do you really have to just have faith in yourself and in your connection to your child and know that what you're doing is all you can control and is really important for your child because

they need that one safe and stable person. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And it sounds like what you're saying is like you have to try to just be the good parent that you can be and allow things to a certain extent to kind of play out with that other parent. And of course, if you've got a toddler that is going to a house where there's drugs or, you know, whatever going on where you have to keep them safe, totally different thing. But also in keeping them safe, can you do that without making it the child's problem. I think this whole thing about like crossing the child with this information is what makes them feel so stuck in the middle.

Right. And I think also what we don't want to do, and this is important, especially as your kids get a little bit older, you know, when my daughter was two, three, and four, I didn't have to tell her much. She didn't really know what she was observing. But as she got older and started asking questions, you know, I think you have to hold but this gets really tricky because you have to hold space for the fact that like your kids are going to start asking questions that may require you to not speak so well about the other parent

in order to not gaslight your child. Right. So if like your child is coming home, upset about something their other parent is doing or saying and you're like, but they love you. That's not the right answer either. I think that's exactly what I'm thinking of. Yeah. There is space for appropriate and honest truth. something my daughter and I always talk about is so I I work very hard to keep her out of this black and white way of thinking right like I'm I'm very much a person who lives in the gray I honor perspective I have empathy and if someone you know she tells me so and so did something at school and I didn't like it they're bad it's like well are they bad or did did they just do

something you didn't like right and can we be hurt by this person and something they said or did And also recognize that like they've been a good friend in other ways. So I think when your child does come to you and they say, you know, I hate mom or I hate dad because they did this. You don't want to be like, yeah, that's my girl. Like now you get it. Because my mom would always be like, so now you see why I got divorced. Like you don't, you don't want to do that. You want to say, wow. Hearing that, that's heavy. And I'm sure that really hurt you. And I don't like that you had to hear that. Tell me more about how that made you feel. And you can have a conversation. with your child about that specific thing being as terrible as they perceived it to be without condoning the behavior or condemning the person. It's so hard, Whitney, like I always tell my friends who aren't divorced, which the majority of my close friends are not, that like I'm constantly in the space of like walking the line. I am just supporting my child without throwing her dad under the bus without gaslighting her. It's like a constant like chemistry lab in my brain of how to do it right. It's exhausting, but I know the work is worth it. Totally. And I think this is

something that you run into even if you're married, right, that your child is pointing out things and the other parent and you have to kind of show up as a team and also not gaslight them because I do think sometimes the pendulum swings to the opposite side where, you know, let's say the dad doesn't show up the 10 times he's supposed to pick the kid up and he's always late and he forgets his birthday and all these things. And you're like, but your dad loves you, like you said, you might be setting your child up to believe like that's what love looks like. And this is what we should model. And the reality is like, no, it's hurtful when your dad doesn't show up. And it must be hard for you for him not to be there. Yes. Yes. And so as your kids get older and they start to notice more about

their other parent that they don't like or that is upsetting to them. You have to pretend, A, that it doesn't. You can't pretend that it doesn't exist. You can't be like, oh, come on, wasn't that bad because you don't know how to handle it. You have to, like, there's been times where I'm like, you know what, babe, I really want to talk to you about this, but I want to think about the best way to respond to you and have this conversation. Give me a few minutes because I have had times where I just want to go sit in the bathroom and cry where I'm like, I can't believe this was said or she is feeling this way because it triggers the little girl version of me. That's like, oh, my God.

You know, so taking a minute is fine too, but not ignoring the situation and not invalidating your child. You know, you're going to piss off your child plenty also. And that's just par for the course of raising kids. Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you brought that up because I think something that parents and their adult children, teenage children get into a lot is the child. wants to sometimes process the divorce or things that happened later on in life, right?

And they might be going back to their parents and saying, why did this happen? I don't like that this happened. And I'm wondering if you have any tips for parents like to handle those conversations, especially if they're very triggering for them. Yes. And an honor that they're triggering because you're like, whoa, where is this coming from and why now? But this is this is important because a lot of people, my daughter was two when we separated. So she has absolutely no recollection of us being together. She doesn't remember the home that we lived in. She doesn't have any like life memory of us ever being together. And I remember her therapist telling me that as children grow, they're going to start to grieve what they can't remember, which is so interesting

because I just, I'm working with a conscious parenting coach for myself who has this grief for program for people to grieve what they didn't get in their childhoods. It's fascinating. I love this stuff. But they're going to have questions and they're going to want to know why. And, you know, they may think about a time where you acted in a way you're not proud of and around the other parent or to the other parent and they're going to hold you to the fire. And it's really important to be honest with them. Not in a way that throws the other parent under the bus, but in a way that shows them that like, hey, like this happened. And I know it sucks. Like you wish this wasn't a part of your story, but let me answer whatever questions you have in the best way that I can. Instead of pushing

it off and saying, you weren't even, you don't even remember. Don't act like you, you know, and that happens to a lot of kids. And that really is a form for me, that happened to me. And I, I feel that that is a form of emotional neglect because otherwise, you know, how are you helping children make sense of their experiences by brushing everything under the rug. My daughter, over time, has asked a lot of questions. You know, when she was younger, was like, did you ever kiss Daddy on the lips? That's like, what an interesting thing. Why did you do that?

You know, because now she sees my husband and I, who I've been with for eight years today, actually. Oh, happy anniversary. But she'll, you know, we have like a really loving, like, we'll, will give each other a peck in front of the kids and they're like, you know. And so one day she was like, did you ever do that with daddy? Like, why? And then then it was like, she would ask questions like, well, when you and daddy were still married, would you guys fight? Would you guys argue? What did you guys do for fun? Then she wanted to see a picture of my wedding dress. Like, it's gone through these stages. And then it's

also come to places where she's like, I kind of get what you guys aren't together. Like, you know, when she was younger, it was like, you only like chocolate candy and cookies and daddy really only likes gummies and he can't have apple pie and you love apple pie. Like it was like these, her brain was trying to make sense of it. Yeah. And so every stage of their lives are going to bring up more things as well as more problems with you guys as parents. And so the conversations are really important.

And there's, there's nothing you can say to your child. if you're speaking honestly and authentically and in a way that protects them that they're going to hate you for they're allowed to be mad at you teens hate their parents for nothing you know what I mean but like they'll respect the honesty more than more than you shutting them down totally and I you know I think you're really like embodying such a perfect example of this because you've been through it and I imagine that there were moments during your divorce, after your divorce where it was very difficult for you, very emotional and very heavy. And to have to put that aside to be there for your child is hard. And I think that's

where a lot of parents get stuck as it kind of becomes this like, do you know what it was like for me? I was doing my best, you know, and it's hard. Yeah. And, and, you know, Bella, I am more, I'm conflict diverse. Like, I don't like. it, I will run the other way. Bella always jokes that like, oh my God, are you going to get a tummy ache because someone like honked at you in traffic? You know, because I'm just not, you know, and that stems from the abuse I experienced as a child, but I don't necessarily share that with Bella, but she'll say to me, like, why are you nice to people who aren't nice to you? Or like, why aren't you mad at them that they did that to you? Or like, you know, if her dad gets, her dad has a bigger temper than me, like,

why are you even, you know, and I'm like, because like, first of all, the person is the person. The problem is the problem. Like, these are two very separate things. And Bella, I know you don't see it now, but like you have it so much better than I did. And I have to tell myself that too because, yeah, in a lot of ways, her experience reminds me in my own. But in a lot of ways, it doesn't. In a lot of ways, it's so much better. and it's it's very hard to live in this space like I was met with a very difficult

conundrum a couple years back that involved my my father and it was at a time in Bella's co-parented life that was fragile and they all sort of intersected and I was in such a bad place and I had to like sit down and have conversations with Bella with my ex with like it was just a really difficult time and it involved everyone's support and helping me like kind of separate everything. Yeah. Yeah. It's, that's reminding me of like how important it is for the adults to have other outlets than their kids. Oh, your child is not your outlet. I mean, maybe they're, they're a place of peace when you separate everything and you can just disconnect and let go and have fun, but that's all they should be, you know? But I, I never wanted to have to

share with my daughter what I experienced. And I was, I was standing by that. Like, in her mind, my dad had died because I considered my stepdad, my real dad, and he did die. And she's named for him. And so when I had to actually, unfortunately, share with her the reality of my story, my fear was like, is telling her this going to make her want to perpetuate like the same dynamic with her dad? Like, if he hurts her feelings, you know, I was so terrified. So it involved me sharing more with her than I was comfortable sharing, but it's resulted in this incredible empathy piece. Like I posted something recently. She wrote, I think it was like they're working on a Mother's Day project in class and I wasn't supposed to see it yet, but I always look at her writing journal because

she's such a beautiful, thoughtful writer and like, hello, I'm an author. And she wrote something like, all the other kids are like, I'm proud of my mom because she makes the best grilled cheese. And she wrote, I'm proud, I'm proud of my mom because even though her dad was really bad to her and he hurt her feelings a lot, she's still so kind all the time and takes care of everyone. Wow. I was like, oh, wait on. Yeah. So all the work that I've done has been helpful, but it has not been easy.

Yeah, you know, we just got done a couple months ago covering like parenting after childhood drama, calling home. And that fear of, is my child going to replicate estrangement? is something that came up a lot, even from people like you that are parenting totally different and do not have a similar relationship with their child at all, that it's almost like you think that behavior is going to get replicated just because. And really it's because of something. Right. And also acknowledging that like, if you fear something so much in you're living in that fear mindset, you can create a self-fulfilling prophecy. And I don't want to do that. And so I've worked

really hard. You know, and something that my therapist always tells me is that I have to keep in mind that Bella has something that I didn't have when I was a kid, which is me as a mom and her dad as a dad. And so it also goes back to I can only control what goes on in my home. And that helps me because there is a large part of me that's like, oh my God, what is she going to say about us in therapy one day or what can happen or like every single time. Every single time it comes up. Yeah, those are those, like, niche therapist fears that you're like, oh, man, what's, what's my child going to say about me? Yeah. God, I can only imagine.

Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about introducing children to new partners. Oh, I love this. Yeah. Are there any tips that you have anything that people should watch out for? Yes, a lot. I can imagine. First and foremost, almost almost everyone wants to.

everyone wants to put in their parenting plan that their ex cannot introduce a new partner for, let's say, six months. That seems to be like the go-to. And I'm like, okay, tell me why that six months is important to you. And then they're like, well, you know, I don't want them just meeting anyone. And I'm like, okay, let's say they wait six months. And now they're so in love with this person. They're like waiting to start a life with them because they don't want to do it until they meet the kids and they're all in on this new person and this new person meets the kids and she's the fucking wicked witch of the West. And your ex is so blindsided by this person's love and beauty and feeling like a king of because of that it's not going to matter to him how this person treats the

kids. And now it's been six months and no one's going anywhere and your kids aren't being treated well by this person versus your ex starts dating somebody and they really like this person. And they're like, okay, you know, I am a 50-50 co-parent and I need to make sure that like this person meshes well with my kids. Otherwise, what's the point of investing time in them? When they are allowed to introduce more quickly, you see sooner whether or not this is a good fit. Like so many people will say to me, I'm so glad I didn't wait to introduce because he just got all weird around my kids and then would act really territorial when I would have conversations with my ex about co-parenting. And so they were like all these red flags that would come up.

Now, I'm not saying you have to introduce a new person right away. But I do think it's really important that if you are moving forward with dating after divorce and you are looking to start a new life with someone and potentially get married, that you see that that person is a safe person for your kids in the way they react to their bad behaviors. In the way that they react to your time with them, a lot of second marriages or second relationships after divorce will end because the new partner is jealous of the time the parent is spending with the kids. Huge red flag. For me, when I met my husband, it was the best news in the world that he was divorced and co-parenting. I said to him, my daughter's two. If she needs me,

I got to go. I don't care what date we have plans. And he's like, vice versa. And we live that truth. And we introduced early on because for me, I'm like, look, your daughter's 10, mine's two. she's in diapers. The first time we introduced Bella through a glass of club soda across the table and in a busy restaurant, you know, I need to know. Like, are you going to run? Right. But at that point, it wasn't like, okay, let's play family.

And this is a big mistake I see people make is like, we broke up the family. We have to replicate this family dynamic immediately. That's the worst thing you can do for many, many reasons. So I think introducing, just to get a gauge on the vibe. and then very, very slowly integrating this person in. But rushing it is going to put too much pressure on your children. It's going to see them as a threat because now they're taking time away from their time with you, which they really need, like, individualized intentional time to feel safe in this new world.

And really taking it slow, if you are with somebody or you're dating somebody who's pushing to meet your kids and you're not ready, red flag. If they start to control your relationship with your co-parent, run the other way. You know, I, my ex and I both, one thing we really aligned on or aligned on is like, as much as like he wasn't my biggest fan for a long time, he told me. And he waited six years before he introduced somebody to Bella. His values were high there and his standards were high. And he said, like, look, my ex is in my life. Like, that's something you have to deal with.

She lives around the corner. we kind of have this like open door policy for Bella we don't want to be with each other we're not in love with each other that's just how it is and that's a really important standard to set because someone who loves you and wants the best for you and your kids won't stand in the way right totally are there ever like legal situations where one parent says they need to meet the other person before they meet the kid is that a thing people try and do that and that's all about ego and it's I'll tell you why it's awful and so bad because the second you try and have that control, what's going to happen with your ex, they're going to say, yeah, great. Me, my new partner. Best do you know? They're going to

go on the defense. And so now you're like, you're meeting the new partner, likely with the intention of finding things wrong with them so that they can't be about around the kids. Yeah. And then your partner, your ex-partners on the defense. And it's, it just creates. And then the new girlfriend or boyfriend on the other side is thinking, who is this whack job that needs to, like, vet me. I do think it's important for everyone to meet and know each other. Like the partner can't be kept in the dark. But it's not your job to decide whether this person is good for your ex or for your kids. You have to trust your ex's judgment at a certain point. Right. Which I think is probably one of the hardest parts. It is very hard. But I will tell you, my ex is

and I are day and night, we couldn't be more different. Some of the things he does, I'm like, what is wrong with you? And he feels the same way about me. But the one thing I rested comfortably on was like, I knew, even though he makes choices that I think are ridiculous, he was never going to bring somebody around my child that wasn't safe for her. So my ego, yeah, that's one thing. Like, who is this bitch that's going to be braiding Bella's hair? But my, my reality is this person loves my ex, making him happier. This person is nice to my daughter, making her happier. Okay. So, you know, that's got to be what it's got to be. But your meeting that person first is going to put everyone on edge, especially your kids. And it's just, it's icky. It's like, do you want your ex deciding

about your new partner? A lot of times we make these rules forgetting that we may end up meeting someone first. And now we've shot ourselves in the foot because we're giving our ex control over our relationship. Right. Right. It's got to be so hard to like just not, I mean, to not know who your child is spending time with or what this person is like. I think it would be difficult to surrender that. Yeah. Yeah. And I do, I do honor that. It was, listen, it was hard for me too, even though I was like fully remarried and in a whole new world when my ex finally introduced someone to Bella. But again, like I knew you have to have faith. in your own relationship with your kids like no one's going to replace you and if they have a

better time over at the other parent's house because of this person great like I don't want my right you know I know for my daughter it's like she met this person at the perfect time because my daughter was just entering like that tween era and here was somebody who like embrace nail polish and hair and Taylor Swift and all the things that my daughter loved while her dad was always like oh nails Taylor, you know, so it was like, this, this met her in a good place, you know, did it sting at first to be like, oh my God, you know, Lindsay bought me this and we're, maybe, but like at the same time, it got to a place where I was like calling Lindsay for things, not my ex. Right, right, right. You might actually find an ally.

An ally and I learned that from my mom. My mom was the greatest example of this. My, um, my dad cheated, had a not just a mistress but like a whole double life he was carrying on a double life with somebody raising her child as his own while married to my mom and my mom was an immigrant to this country with nothing and when my mom caught this she ended things and obviously this resulted in the most brutal 10 year divorce like Long Island had ever seen but my mom always treated her like a friend and I would say to her why I was like nine like why are you so nicer? The same things Bella asks me, right? She ruined your life.

And she's like, well, what am I going to do about it? She's not going anywhere. And your dad's not going to talk to me, but she will. So she made her an ally and it was the strongest thing I've ever seen my mom do. And to this day, I'm like, Ma, like, wow. Like it just, you know, she would call her up. She'd say, hi, hi, how are you? Happy birthday to your son or, you know, has your mom feeling and have a whole conversation with her.

Was it slightly manipulative? Sure. did it work to her favor? Yes. And did it protect us? Yes. Gosh, I think, I think the thing I'm taking away, like the biggest takeaway from everything you're saying is how important it is to like, What a hot mess my life is, you know. No, no. How important it is to like step out of yourself. Your self. Yeah. And really look at things like from your kids' perspective, your co-parents' perspective, like not make everything about how you feel and what you're going through because you're not the only one going through the divorce.

No. And it was, you know, the line I said at the beginning that I repeat 100 times a day at this point that the divorce is an adult decision, but a child's lived experience. And I'll take that one step further because a couple of years ago, you know, I'm sure you know, Dr. Shafali on my podcast a few times. And something we talked about was this concept of like, your child is not yours, right? Like, yeah. They don't owe you.

They're not obligated to. you know, and you say it all the time, like the quality of that if you want your children to grow up and want to be around you, you have to do things right now. And their childhood is just a small blip on the radar of their entire lives. And when we look at it through that lens of like they don't belong to us. We get to experience them. We get to mold and shape them. I think that helps a lot to separate the ego. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Michelle. I think people are going to really benefit from this conversation. If you could tell everyone where they can find you and about your book, I'm sure a lot of people would like to read it. Yeah. So,

Michelle Dempsey.com. I'm the Michelle Dempsey on Instagram and Substack. I love to write. And my first book was published back in 2022. Mom's Moving on Real Life Advice on Conquering Divorce, co-parenting through conflict and becoming your best self. Book number two is in the works. I'm really excited about that. Amazing. Congratulations. Podcast was just ranked top divorce podcasts and it's rated one percent globally after freaking five and a half years of doing this. So yay for that. It's called the moving on method, which is the method we developed and trademarked in

helping parents protect their children in divorce. And I also two years ago developed a training to train and certify coaches in our method so that they can help protect their clients, children. And I'm really proud to say that a lot of mental health professionals and lawyers are now taking the certification training so that they're not just out for the adult's best interests, but the children's as well. I love that. Thank you so much. And we will link to all of your stuff in show notes as well. And congrats on book number two.

That's so exciting. Thank you. The Calling Home Podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider. and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship between you and Collingholm or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Holmes Terms of Service linked in the show notes below.