CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - The Golden Child with Vienna Pharaon

Episode Date: September 17, 2024

Join Whitney Goodman and Vienna Pharaon, LMFT, as they discuss the role of the Golden Child in a dysfunctional family system. You will learn: how someone becomes the golden child why golden children struggle how sibling dynamics play into this role how to step out of the golden child role Let’s Connect Have a question for Whitney? Call Home at 866-225-5466.  Join Whitney’s Family Cycle Breakers Club for further support and discussion on family dynamics at CallingHome.co. Follow the Calling Home community on Instagram. Click here to get “Toxic Positivity” on paperback.  Follow Whitney Goodman on Instagram or TikTok. The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services, is not a substitute for advice from a qualified healthcare provider, and does not create any therapist-patient or other treatment relationship between you and Calling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home’s Terms of Service.  Mixing, editing and show notes provided by Next Day Podcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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That dress, that jacket, those shoes. Is anyone paying full price for anything? Stop wondering. Start winning. Winners, find Fabulous for Less. Today I'm joined on the podcast with popular Instagram relationship expert and licensed therapist and author Vienna Farron. You may also know her as Mindful MFT. She wrote the book, The Origins of You, that is a profound guide to understanding and overcoming wounds from your family of origin, the foundation of how we relate to others, ourselves, and the world around us.

And I'm so excited to have her on today because we both love talking about family relationships and family systems. I'm really going to dive into the golden child role. Come the golden child, what it's like to be the golden child, and how that individual interacts with other people and the family. We talk a little bit about how that role has played out in our own lives and how we see it professionally with our clients. I'm really excited for you to hear this episode and let me know what you think. Well, I have noticed that at calling home, a lot of our listeners fall into this category of like being the golden child in their family.

And so I'm wondering if you can talk about like what is the golden child and how do people get put into this role? Yeah, I think when we're talking about the golden child, we're often talking about the child who is favored or idealized. by their parents, by their caretakers, maybe they're getting a lot of attention, praise. There might be a lot of, like, you can do no wrong, you know, if we were to talk about the other siblings in this family system, right? They might say that, yeah, this person never had to take responsibility for anything,

or they got off the hook all of the time, right? But ultimately, I think it's the child who feels, yeah, like they were really idealized. and just favored by their parents at all costs to any extent. Yeah. Do you think it's often because, like, the parent identifies, like, qualities in themselves in that child? I think it can be. Yeah.

I think it can be. It would be interesting to actually, I don't know if there's research on this, but I wonder for the folks who identify as the golden child if there's a birth order with it. It's just a question that's popping up in my head right now. as you and I are speaking. And so I don't know the answer. I'll look it up to see if there is one and so maybe we'll throw it in the show notes later. But yeah, I'd be curious to know like why, right, why a parent is actually idealizing this child, holding them on a pedestal. And I think what

you brought up is certainly one of the ways in which we might see that is like I see something in myself, in you or you know, how sometimes parents will talk about, you know, the mini me, which has its own, you know, issues to it. But, right, like the mini me and, you know, and speaking to or being in relationship with this child in the way that, you know, they wished someone were maybe in relationship with them. Yeah. So true. And I think it's also like a lot of times the child that performs the best makes the parent look the best sometimes. Like if we're talking about emotionally immature parents or parents with like narcissistic tendencies of like, oh, you're achieving you're outwardly look very good to the world, and that makes me look good as a parent.

And so I am going to put you up on that pedestal. Totally, right. The performance, the pleasing, right? When it's done successfully, quote unquote, right, it's very validating for the parent and very identifying for the parent, the emotionally immature one. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. If someone's listening to this and wondering, like, am I the golden child? Like, how do you think they would be able to tell?

Probably feeling like they were put up on some type of a pedestal that there was nothing that they could really do wrong. You know, it's like it's almost like they got off the hook a lot more. And again, I think a lot of times when there's a sibling in the dynamic as well, right, there's like something to compare it to. My sibling always was the one who had to take responsibility or who had to apologize or was always the one who was getting in trouble or who was always being criticized and blamed. And for some reason, right, like, I was not the one who was dealing with any of that. So I do think it's the experience of being put on this pedestal and being seen as someone who could do no wrong, who never really had to take ownership or accountability or responsibility for things, who got off the hook fairly easily. and like who's probably, you know, if you heard your parent often, just like really loving on you hard, you know, where it's just like praising you and singing your, you know, singing your song.

It's like that that's sort of the energy around it. Yeah, yeah. I think you're so right about the sibling component that I actually feel like it's hard for golden children to like identify themselves sometimes. it's usually like the scapegoat or the other one that's saying like, no, you were the golden childs because look at how I was treated in comparison to you. And sometimes that golden child will just be like, no, I was actually just a good kid. And you were messing up. And you were the problem, you know? And it's like we hear it more clearly articulated by someone who wasn't in that role. Yeah. I think there's a contrast. Like in having

the contrast that can sometimes be helpful. But yes, I think if you're in the role, it sometimes can be hard to identify. Maybe one thing that would help is that I think a lot of times there's something about it that doesn't quite make sense. And so I actually think that this rupture is a little bit of trust for the individual when you are put on a pedestal and you're being treated that way and you can do no wrong. The reality of it is is that we do know that we can do wrong. We do know that we make mistakes, right? It's like in our core, in our guts, in our intuition, we know that that's the way that we all show up in life. And especially as kiddos, right, we're like trying to figure out the world and we're teenagers and we're like totally misstepping and doing all

of these things. And when you have somebody who's saying, you're amazing, oh my gosh, you're perfect. I have definitely had conversations with so many clients of mine who are like, something's off. Like I actually don't trust what you're saying to me. There's something that doesn't quite match up. How could I be X, Y, Z, all these things that you're singing praises about when I actually know in my core that I, whatever, as a kid, I just like pummeled my sibling and I just like ate the thing, but my sibling just got in trouble for eating the thing and I didn't say anything about it. It's like there's a, there's this, you know, we all have, I think, very strong intuitions and our intuition.

often get stripped away through these relationships in a family system, or it can get stripped away, obviously, later on in life too. But I think it's like, oh, I know something in my core. And then when the adult is telling me something that doesn't quite match up with that, but it sounds really nice, right? Because it's nice to be favored. It's nice to be, you know, idealized, but it doesn't quite match up with my behavior or how I'm presenting or what I'm doing, then I think there is a trust piece that gets ruptured there. So kind of going back to your question, how would someone know? Well, again, it can be really hard to identify, but I think when something felt really off, you know, where it's like, wait, these descriptors that you're

using about me are not lining up with the way that I'm existing in the world. And, you know, the reality of it is, is like the way that you're existing in the world most likely is, you know, it's like age appropriate, you know, like makes a lot of sense, right? But like we need the adults to actually be able to hold us there and name the things and acknowledge the things and not just say, oh my gosh, you are the best thing in the world and you're so amazing and you can do no wrong and all the things, right, because that's where it doesn't actually line up and make sense to us. Yeah, that's, that's so true. And like, especially when you start getting feedback from the outside world, right? Like, maybe you're not

getting accolades. You're not getting good grades. You're not winning or progressing or all these areas of life where your parents, like, you're perfect. You're a star. And, like, well, why isn't anybody else telling me that? And I could see how that would create a. a lot of mistrust of either other people, yourself, the parent, whatever it is, of like, why is my parent treating me this way? And no one else seems to see it. I think the anger and the frustration comes later on in life. You know, when I, I don't work with kids, but I always say I work with adults who have all been kids before. And there is something about, you know, it's like you were telling me these things that you thought,

were good for my, you know, self image, and yet what it did was the opposite, right? It's like, I actually need you to match your response and how you see me, which is, as a parent, we're still going to say, I love you, and you are safe, and you belong, and your priority to me, and, right? And this behavior has a consequence or this behavior this or that, right? And what I see is that the adults that I work with are actually really angry about this opening and this recognition about like you were essentially lying to me. And that might feel really harsh. But it's like this thing that you were trying to protect within your own self, right, as the parent, is now something that has gotten in the way of me being able to whatever.

integrate into the world or integrate into relationships in the way that I really wish that I could or have a self-image that actually lines up and makes sense, right? Because if I have to hear like, I can do no wrong and I'm perfect all of the time, that's actually not helpful for me out in the world and out in relationships, whether they're romantic or friendship or, you know, my colleagues or whatever it might be. And so I tend to see that frustration or that anger kind of show up later on in life. And yeah, it's just an incongruency that might be the best word to use is that congruency is something that really helps support and align our guts and our intuition. And when we experience things that are incongruent, we know that we messed up. We know that we did a

hurtful thing. We know that we, you know, did something wrong as a child as a kid, right? And then the response doesn't match that. It is an incongruent. experience that we're entering into. And we want, even though it might be hard in those moments to have a parent sit us down and say, hey, let's talk about what happened. You know, like maybe there's a little bit of shame or embarrassment or guilt that enters into the conversation. But like that is a tool and that is a muscle that builds something really important for us as we then move through life as opposed to just saying, oh, it was your brother's fault it was your sister's fault watching them get in trouble all of the time yeah that's and i think

that's such a trip for like adults to kind of navigate of like my parent was like too kind to me in a way that actually wasn't kind you know it was lying but on its on its surface it sounds kind right like i think you're amazing and perfect and you can do no wrong that that incongruence in the same way that them telling us we're bad all the time can result in some discomfort in adulthood and trying to figure out, well, like, who am I outside of that? Listen, parents have a hard go. You know, there's no question about it. You could be sitting here and thinking, like, we're doing the best thing to say, you're amazing,

you're incredible, you're perfect, right? Like, on the surface, those things sound so much better, right, than the alternative. And yet, you know, and listen, I think a lot of my work is holding the comment. of people's stories. And so, you know, you sort of started with that. Like, do you think parents do this because they see themselves in their child or, you know, the child is really validating to them in some way. And, you know, I think that context of, oh, as a parent, why did I feel the need to create this storyline for my child? Right. What was I actually trying to protect either them from or protect myself from because our behavior when we understand the context is always

either self-protective, other protective, or both. And so yeah, when we sit here and I can imagine some people listening being like, oh my gosh, here we go. Right. It's like another thing. I'm telling my children that they're great and amazing and like I'm clear, I've destroyed something now. You know, it's like I know that that can be hard and frustrating. And also I think there's something really important to this idea of congruency, right, where it's, you know, doesn't mean that a child has to go down a notch, right? Because the reality is we're hoping that children have the experience of always feeling loved and worthy and prioritized and good enough and a sense of belonging, even when they step out and do something that is, you know, problematic and where there does

need to be a consequence right to that behavior, but we don't need to keep them on some pedestal that protects them from having to feel what it is that they need to feel, right? It's feel this and also know that you are loved. And I think that's the beauty of, you know, a secure attachment is that we go through hard things. You wrote all over the wall. Okay, like, I love you. And also this behavior, there's no, there's no room for it here, right? That destroys the walls and we worked really hard for, whatever, whatever the conversation may be, but it's that we can go through hard things together, you know, and get to the other side and for you to still know that you are loved and you are wanted and you are safe here. But when we don't know how to be in that conversation,

then sometimes we either respond by getting really angry and upset and look what you've destroyed or the alternative to what you and I are talking about today is still say, I love you and you're perfect and you can do no wrong. And the child's like, well, I just ruined your walls. Like, how does that match up? It's like, wait, this doesn't make sense to what just happened. And, you know, sense making, not just in the head, right? Like in our physical experience, right, is so important.

That's the congruency that we're talking about. Yeah, there's two things that you just said that I want to like highlight because I think they're really important. And that is this idea of like, is it self protective or other protective is very different than saying, I'm a bad parent because I did this. And so if you're hearing this and you're relating to this, whether that's as the adult child, the parent, a new parent now, thinking about like, how can I understand why I might be falling into this and what is the context of the situation rather than just like, oh, I did this bad thing. And I screwed up my kid. And I I'm a bad parent, you know, that's not what's being said, you know. And then there's this other piece of like, we need to know that we're not only loved when we're perfect, right? And so I think the biggest feeling I hear from golden children is this idea of like, I must perform to feel loved, whether that's through like what I do for my parent in the ways that I'm like parentified or the achievements that I have or, you know, there are those golden children that I think we're speaking about that are like put on a pedestal without really doing anything. And then there are the

others that are on that pedestal. Yes. Because of their actions. And that can be really scary to be up there. Like I'm wondering if you can speak to like what that feels like to be that type of golden child. Well, yeah, the one who has to work for it. I talk a lot about performers in regards to the worthiness wound. Yes. Because with worth, you know, there's so much in it that's tied to the conditions of the relationship, the conditions of love. So I always say to people like, you know, who are my perfectionists, my pleasers, my peacekeepers, you know, in the room, because likely you have some type of a worthiness wound that is present here, which says in order to get love and in order to get connection, in order to get presence and attention and validation or

peace or calm in your home, you needed to do whatever, fill in the blank, get straight A's, perform incredibly well on the sports field, be really good at being the comic relief in the home, right, whatever it is. And that when you did that successfully, right, that's how you kept your place. That's how you kept your role. That's how you kept your position in the home. And so it's this constant chasing of that outcome, right, of connection. attachment, and validation. Now, I should say it's the illusion of it because it's based on your performance. It's not based on you just being and existing in the world. When we hear people say, like, you're worthy just because you're here, you're born, right? And I know that that's one of those

things where if you struggle with worth, you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds nice for all those other people. You know, that's not me, right? Like, I know that is such a hard one to swallow. You're like, yeah, cool for every other human on the planet. that doesn't apply here but right it's like we're constantly on that chase and it means that we have to stay in this role of performer or pleaser or peacekeeper or comic relief in order to maintain the golden child right in order to maintain whatever being liked being idealized being up on that pedestal and that's a really hard way obviously to go through life and then you grow up and you try to enter into the world and relationships and, you know, how do I have to be in order

to still get the outcome that I have been chasing my entire life? It's very exhausting for people. Yeah, it's so true, especially like bringing it back to siblings, I think if you see yourself being treated better than your siblings because of your performance and you see how they're being treated, it's like, oh my gosh, I cannot risk this. I don't want to, we can look at our siblings and be like, I don't want to be treated like them. So I'm going to keep this up so that I can be worthy of my parents, you know, affection or positive regard. Yeah.

Yeah. And it really, it ties into belonging to because I think there's this part that's like, okay, the alternative is intolerable to us. Right. If you're looking and, yeah, you might be comparing it to a sibling, let's say. It's like, okay, like, I'm definitely taking this path because this outcome is superior to the alternative. I don't want to do that. And I want to have this sense of, again, the illusion of belonging, right?

It's really fitting into the family system and being liked, right, where it's, we often have to trade, you know, our authenticity for attachment when it comes to belonging, when we're talking about belonging wounds. And a lot of times, you know, the golden child is having to trade their authenticity. they are showing up in a way that is performance-based that gets them the attachment. Again, I say that very loosely because I think it's the illusion of it. It's this perceived sense of attachment. But at that time, you know, it's our lifeline.

It does give us, there's a feedback loop there. And it's a much better situation, again, than the alternative, which is not belonging, not fitting in, not feeling worthy, not feeling good enough, not feeling. valuable. And maybe on top of that being criticized, right? Maybe on top of that being abused. I mean, the list can go on. And so it makes so much sense why a child might tie very closely to that performance and to that pleasing and to that peacekeeping in order to get the outcome that is preferred and much more tolerable than the alternative. Yeah. With MX Platinum, access to a

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Learn more at scotiabank.com slash banking packages. Conditions apply. Scotibeck, you're richer than you think. It's so true. And it's crazy how this stuff shows up. Like when I've heard you talk about the worthiness wound and when I hear you talk about it now, that's definitely something that I relate to so strongly, personally, as someone who's like a high achiever and wants to perform and is very performance-based just like, naturally that's

my personality. But then if I go too far, I can feel that that like after I had my first child and I couldn't work and I couldn't do a lot and I needed help. It was like my whole world got destroyed because I could not perform at the level, you know, that I was at. And so I think some people don't even realize that like they're doing that until you get put in a situation like that. Like to me, that wasn't a wound that I was super aware of because the performance I was doing was positive, you know, in the world. And like it was, it felt good for me that it's crazy how that stuff can come up later in life. And you see some of these manifestations of like, oh, my gosh,

who am I without like my work and being able to cook and get dressed and get up every day? Even when no one around you is pressuring you. Like no one was saying anything to be about it. It was all just coming from me. It's wild. Yeah. Transitions will do that to us sometimes. You know, it's like you, it sounds like you were able to like keep the thing together for so long, right? Until there was this massive transition in your life in which, you know, you were sort of humbled in that space. We're like, oh, I literally can't do everything all the time. You know, it's like, I can't perform. Like, you know, I'm brought to my knees in this moment.

And then everything sort of crumbles a little bit. And, you know, it does bring us into our worth. It's interesting. I'm thinking about my own life because I've talked about where my worthiness wound, you know, originated. And one of the things is that, like, when I was good, when I was a good girl, right, when I was performing in the way that, you know, got me the accolades and was really validating, you know, specifically for my dad, I think, then I probably could say that I was a golden child.

I'm an only child, so I didn't have anybody to compare it to. But I was, like, I was a high performer. I was really good at sports. I was really good at the violin. Like, I was a well-rounded individual. And when I was performing and showing up in that way, I had a lot of connection, attention, validation, affirmation, support, help, et cetera. When I was not the good girl, meaning I tested some boundaries or I pushed back on something

or, yeah, I wasn't presenting in the way that my dad wanted me to. And I really need to caveat this and say, like, super within reason. Like, me being difficult was a very, like, mild version of it. I hear you. I was the same way. Uh-huh. But when that happened, what would then transpire is that I was punished through the silent treatment.

And so it would happen for days or weeks on end. And that was interesting because it was such a shift in the pedestaling of like, oh, my gosh, you're amazing. You know, my dad would talk about me to all of his friends and everyone. just like speak my praises constantly and then the behavior the shift right because it was this really dramatic shift for me as a kid it was like oh when you're not who i want need expect you to be right this is what happens to your worth right and my worth was really tied obviously to the performance of like flying under the radar being easy going not

not having needs and not challenging things, right? Not adding any difficulty to a, you know, this, we're not talking about this story for this conversation, but just like not adding more difficulty to an already difficult situation. And then moment when that happened, right, was whoop, nope, attachment connection, praise, validation, et cetera, is no longer here for a few days, maybe for a few weeks, right? And so that was something that really played into my worthiness wound and the origins of it. No, absolutely. It's so relatable.

And I think if you're not aware of it, those patterns get so entrenched, right, that especially if you are exhibiting some of these like performance-based golden child, high achiever type of things, those are constantly rewarded by every aspect of society. Everyone. Right? Everyone loves that. Everyone loves a high achiever. Everyone loves someone that's driven.

Like, it's easy to get locked into that because the feedback loop, the positive feedback loop is really endless. Like you can always find people, spaces, places that are going to affirm that for you. And it's, that's a scary one, I feel like to step out of. It feels like very risky to step off that pedestal or like to get off the hamster wheel. It's so risky to do it when the system. you grew up in didn't allow for it. And that's the part because when you have a system where when you do amazing,

incredible things, you get the A on the test, you score a hat trick, you this, you that, like when you, that those things are beautiful and I love you and I'm so proud of you or whatever. And that when you get the C and you play a terrible game and what, right, like that that you are also loved, right? And that connection doesn't vary based on the performance. And that is so critical. It's so crucial, right, to create this space where no matter how you show up, and of course, I mean, with reason and there are consequences, right? But like, no matter how you show up, I still love you. You belong here. You are a priority to me. You can trust me and you are safe and secure here, like those five things, right? Like, that's the thing that matters. And then we grow up

into adults who say, hey, I, of course I want to achieve excellence, or of course I want to, you know, pursue my dreams, or of course I'm going to work hard. I'm going to have a great work ethic. I'm going to be a responsible human integrated into this world. Okay. And also, when I mess up, right? When I'm, when my human parts come forward, I trust and know that I am still a deeply loved and respected human on this planet and in my relationships, right? And it's like, that's why we look at origin stories and we look at the family system in which we grew up to say, here's the template, right? Here's the foundation. Here's the blueprint that you got that taught you how you needed to exist in life and in relationships in order to prove or know

your worth, your value, et cetera, right? And so it's like there is something I think sometimes we think we're doing a service when we're doing a disservice. And there's just so much value to creating space for the human experience and meeting it with congruency as a parent with children at any point, meeting it with congruency. But that congruency is never at the cost of still loving, respecting, admiring your child. It's like that to me is where the nuances and where the beauty is in it. Absolutely. So we touched on, you know, worthiness, belonging, and I think we just started to talk about, like, being prioritized. I'm wondering if you can speak to that because I think the golden child often gets prioritized in a lot of ways in a family system, right? But how does that

wound show up maybe for this type of personality that we're talking about? Yeah, right. So the The prioritization wound is about wanting to feel like the priority to the important people in your life. And in this iteration of what we're talking about for the golden child, they likely do feel like they are the priority. And maybe, again, in contrast, their siblings or not, or that everything is really focused around them. And I think, again, this probably comes down to to the congruency piece with the prioritization wound as well. It might mean that if that is how you were treated, you expect everyone in the world to treat you that way. I think you were sort of naming that earlier on in our conversation, right? We're like, oh, I am important to the

important people in my life as long as they treat me this way. But now, uh-oh, my partner has a job or my partner has friends or my partner has other things going on in their lives or, you know, whatever it might be. And so all of a sudden, I might experience the way that a person might code it is actually being deprioritized because it does not compare to the way in which they were prioritized. So I think sometimes, again, it's like, okay, they might have felt like a priority. Again, it's a little bit performance-based potentially, right, that I, am a priority as long as I am performing this way or presenting to the world this way or making you happy or validating you or, you know, that your friends are so impressed with me so you feel

good, whatever it might be. And so then there's this shift, again, into the real world that, you know, doesn't, doesn't treat you the same way that a parent who is idealizing you or putting you on a pedestal might. And so that sort of like fall from grace can really happen. And again, sort of like, where am I in the world? And do I, am I important to anyone? Because the idea of the experience of being important to someone is such an extreme experience that we don't know how to integrate into the world. So I think there can be the experience in our adult lives of actually feeling really deprioritized by people, even those who might be. presenting in a totally appropriate sort of functional way in relationships, but because

you experienced a totally different in a way of being prioritized, you know, your standards are really different than somebody else's. Yeah, for sure. And that can be a, I mean, that can be a different like wounding process. I feel like to navigate feeling deprioritized. And like, is that actually rooted in reality of like what your partner is doing? Or is it just because it's in contrast to that family system that you were talking about. And then the other wound of like, I want to trust. I think we touched on this a little bit earlier, right, of like the incongruence. Is there anything else you add there? Well, let me think because I do think trust is actually where it's one of the bigger ones when we go through the different wounds

where I'm like, worthiness and trust, I think really show up in this space because, yeah, to the point of incongruency before. It's like there's a questioning when it doesn't make sense. And that's the kind of the disservice piece. And again, we know that most of the time it is so well-intentioned from the parent to say, you're amazing and oh my gosh, you can do no wrong. And I want you to feel perfect in the world. But it is putting into question this sense of trust, right?

Can I actually trust what you're saying to me? can I trust how you see me? Now can I trust how I see myself because how you see me informs the way that I see me, especially as a child, right? It's like we absorb the way that the adults in our lives see us as truth. And so can I trust how I see myself? So yeah, I think the incongruency piece is really significant when it comes to a trust wound. Yeah, I don't know that I would add anything more to it, but I'll keep thinking as we as we keep going here. Yeah, no, I think that makes perfect sense, though, especially if we're talking about, you know, majority of people listening to this podcast are adults trying to figure out their childhood of like,

if you, especially in young adulthood, you start to experience the world in such a different way than you experienced your family of origin. That can create mistrust, right? Whether it's in a good way or in a bad way, it's this feeling of like, wow, why was I living in this and other people are this way or they see me this way? way. And that's disreculating, like in and in of itself. It is. Summer's here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days, delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well-groom lawn delivered,

but you can get a chicken parmesan delivered. A cabana? That's a no, but a banana, that's a yes. A nice tan, sorry, nope. But a box fan, happily yes. A day of sunshine, no. A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything. delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol and select markets. Product availability may vary by Regency App for details. Pumpkin is here at Starbucks and we're making it just the way you like. Handcrafted with real ingredients like our real pumpkin sauce and rich espresso sprinkled with pumpkin spice. It's full of real flavors you'll keep coming back for. Made just for you at Starbucks. And I think, you know, when we are in our adult relationships, can I trust what

you're saying to me. It's like that when there is a question about the way that our parents are seeing us and what they're saying to us in response to our great behavior or not so great behavior and anything in between, then there's that questioning that sort of is interwoven into the way that we relate to people and relationships and the dynamics around us. And so am I questioning everyone around me, my intimate relationships, like how you see me, what you're saying to me. Can I believe your words? Or are your words something that are more self-protective of you, et cetera?

So true. And then the last wound that you talk about in your book is I want to feel safe, right? And so I feel like a lot of people who are looking at the golden child from the outside maybe envious of the golden child, especially siblings or even a partner who's jealous of the way that that child has kind of like usurp their role. I'm wondering if you can speak to like how the golden child actually doesn't feel very safe or how that wound might show up for them. Yeah, well, I think you might feel pedestal by parents, but you might feel disliked or hated by your sibling, you know, or you might have, you know, these other dynamics where it doesn't feel,

super safe, whether we're talking about emotionally or physically or whatever, however it might play out growing up. And I think when we're talking about safety, certainly there are times where we're also talking about abuse, right? The absence of safety often means the presence of abuse. But it's, there's this like, there can also be like a negligence or a recklessness that presents in that space as well. And I think a lot of times with a golden child, it's going to be about the emotional care, the feeling that other people are upset with me or angry with me, meaning probably siblings most of the time in a family system, at least to start, right, that the sibling feels like things are unfair and this is, you know, impacting or destroying

our relationship or, yeah, just like the vision and the storyline that this other individual who, you know, I love or I care about or I want. want to be close to, right, is angry with me, upset with me, can't stand me, hates me, you know, wants to try to find ways to get me into trouble, wants to try to find ways to make it fair. And so sometimes, right, like that can escalate things, whether it's emotional or physical. Obviously, we know it can get really physical with siblings sometimes, right? And so it's like, it can be this, almost like this, like a vengeance at times, where it's like, how can I get our parents to see that you're not perfect?

or that I'm not always the problem. And like, what do I need to do and create in order to make that happen? And I think for some people, like, that can be a really unsafe experience, feel like you're looking over your shoulder or to feel like there are scenarios in which you actually were unsafe because someone was trying to get a different outcome or get a parent to pay attention to something. And so, yeah, it can definitely feel like the looking over the shoulder or someone's out to get me or someone's trying to prove, you know, a different story about me to be.

be true, even if you're not doing, you know, even in the like, even if you're not doing anything to try to be a golden child, you know, like you're not trying to get your sibling in trouble. Like, it just happens to be this way. It's a very innocent position to be in and to still feel like someone can't stand you or hates you or wants to get you in trouble or is going to try to find the way to, you know, out you, you know, can feel really unsafe in that environment. So that's, you know, a couple of the ways that it could play out with a sibling. It could also play out that way with like a like a step parent or, you know, step siblings kind of entering into the system. You know, it's like when if it's a family system where the parents are together and they

both see you that way, because that's one thing. But if we're talking about, you know, different dynamics or, you know, a partner coming in later on in life and be like, why is this child the like idealized child and what about me as the partner and I want to be the important one to you, right? It can feel like people are against you, people are out to get you, people are out to bring you off the pedestal, which, listen, I don't think it's great to be on a pedestal, but also the intentional attempt of taking someone off. It can be really scary and feel really unsafe and that it maybe doesn't feel trusting of the other people in that dynamic. It's so true. It's like, I am not envious of anyone that has been put in that role. I think sometimes it looks nice,

especially in comparison to maybe how other people are being treated. But it's still very precarious. We've walked through all of these different origin wounds that you talk about in your book. And so the last thing I kind of want to ask you is like if anyone's listening to this, you're an adult who really identifies with this golden child's role. And you want to step out of it. How would you begin that process? Yeah. You know, I think one, there is something about I once posted something along the lines of, I think I did like a reel on, you know, being put on a pedestal says so much less about me

on the pedestal and much more about your relationship with your worth. And, you know, I think there's something to, as the adult, kind of taking a step back and looking through a new lens of and trying to connect to maybe why the people in your life needed you to be in that position or why they needed to put you in that position, again, kind of circling back to where we started as a self-protective or other protective intention initiative. and, you know, really connecting to it very compassionately and graciously. Usually people are not doing this to harm you, right? But it might wind up doing that. You know, it's like they're doing this as a form of some type of protection. And so I think for the person who maybe is identifying with this, there's value to taking that step back and saying, okay, like,

what about this whole situation was self-protected? for my parents or what was their attempt at protecting me from something based on the context that I carry and hold, right? Like for them, maybe your parents, they themselves grew up in a really abusive home and they were always criticized as a child and they promised to never do that to their child and you're their child. And so they've swung the pendulum 180 degrees to the other side and they feel like this is a much better way to be in the world than the alternative, you know, and that's one story among billions, right? And it's like, okay, what is the story that helps make this make sense? And, okay, once I have some of that context or that understanding,

I don't want to be on the pedestal anymore. Or maybe I do, right? I mean, I think this is the reflection for us, right? It's like, what do I gain and what do I lose from being in this position and on this pedestal? What does it require of me? Am I willing to, you know, continue putting in that effort? You know, because I think our goal is to get to a place where we get to exist in the world authentically. Yeah. I think it's, you know, that's, I think that's most of our goals, right? And I think when we have performance and perfectionism pleasing, you know, at the cornerstone of our, you know, our existence, there's something that we're having to work out and work through in order to say, I don't need to be in this role anymore in order to love and be loved,

see and be seen, hear, and be heard, understand and be understood. Now, that can feel like a blank roadmap. You know, we can say that, but sure, like, what the heck? do I do? And I think it's a lot of little moments of budging and moving in the direction of coming back into ourselves, you know, of like really reclaiming and regaining some of the pieces that we might have lost along the way. If it sounds like you, right, it's like we're having to do reparative work, right? It's that there's something unresolved in our lives that needs our resolution. And so can we begin to do some of this resolution work around, this role and what wounds it has put into question for you, right? And how you continue to hold

yourself with the glue in this space in order to make the systems around you operate. Well, my relationship with my partner only works as long as I'm performing this way. I only get raises at my job because da-da-da-da, right? It's like, yeah, it requires you to risk something. In change, there's a consequence, you know? It's like there's this line from the poem. the dreamer by Raya that says, I remember the first time I read this line, I want to know if you can disappoint another to stay true to yourself. And I was like, oh, oh my gosh. I had to read it over and over and over again because that was not something that I could do or something that I was good. I cannot disappoint another to stay true to myself because the consequence felt

so threatening, intolerable to me. But I needed to budge in that space, budge, move, tiny little micro moments of expansion to trying something different, to trying something new, to disappointing someone, to saying I'm affected when I used to say I'm unaffected and fine all of the time, to try these things out and realize, oh, I'm still here and I survived and I'm safe and okay, right? And that there's usually contractions that happen after those moments of expansion. But I think for me, you know, it's like we will continue to find ourselves in these unwanted patterns in our lives, relationally, over and over and over again, with boundaries, with communication, breakdowns, with conflict, if we don't tend to the irresolution from the past.

And when you are put in a role, in a family system, in a dysfunctional family system, meaning you need to be in this role in order to make this system work, in order to make this family work, right? That is where we have to go in order to do resolution work. Yeah. It's like we can all have roles, different rules. We're talking about the golden child today. There's an endless list of all the different roles that people could step into. But when we have dysfunction in a family system, we all step into a role, especially as kiddos, in order to make the system work. And so we're sort of unraveling this in order to resolve that so that you don't need to be in that position and in that role anymore. in order to make your life work around you, that you get to just be, that you get to be as you are, that you get to show up in this way, right? So yeah, it takes work. In fact, it's a lifetime of work, not meant to be overwhelming, but to set your bar in a totally appropriate way. And to like know that,

yeah, there is a way to create these changes and to exist in a world without having to own that role. Yeah, it's so true. And I agree with you that I think once you get secure in your worthiness, your ability to belong, to feel loved, all these wounds, like, it's harder for people to put you in that role because you're not performing it. And in adulthood, we have some power over, like, distancing ourselves from that in a way that we don't really have in childhood because we are so much more involved in the functioning of our families when we're dependent on them in that way. so it's a good reminder yeah yeah there's there isn't an alternative usually when we're when we're young you know it's like we we must we have to adapt because the alternative is it's the alternative really isn't okay right we need attachment we need survival and so we choose survival but there's a point in our lives obviously as you know where our goal is to have enough heal

so that we don't have to survive, but we actually get to choose. Choice is such an important piece to healing. And when we are just going through the motions and holding in this role, that's not choice. And so there's healing work that does have to be done in order to even take that step to question this, to like think about how I do want to show up in the world or what boundary I'd like to set or what boundary I'd like to lift in this particular moment. but in that space is where we actually get to offer ourselves choice. And choice, again, is that the cornerstone is a cornerstone for our healing.

Oh, my gosh. Choice is like everything, for sure, having that agency. Yeah. Well, the last question I like to ask all of my guests is what cycle are you breaking in your own family? What is a pattern that ends with you? Oh, gosh. I mean, so much, obviously.

I've been in this work for a really long time, and there's so many cycles that I've had to break. One main one was kind of shifting into a place of relational protection instead of self-protection. And what I mean by that is in conflict. I was someone who would classically prove my point and need to be right all of the time. And that originated and stemmed from growing up in a family system with a parent who was, you know, a master manipulator and gas later and really quick with his words. And I watched its impact on my mom, which was paranoia and really like a lot of confusion and crazy making. I don't say that, use that word lightly. And so I had really decided that being right and proving my point was

where my safety was, right, not being able to prove your point or not being able to debate or question or challenge, right, was where the absence of safety was. And so I used to present in this way and go into this sort of like shut down mode. And it was fight, but this like shutdown mode of like I, the most important thing is protection. And there was no space for connection in conflict at all. And that was a really big thing for me to shift. And it's something, you know, it's not like I never get caught. proving my point or needing to be right. Of course, that happens sometimes, but it's not something

that happens nearly as much as it used to because I've worked really hard at seeing that part and understanding how self-protective it was. Like, I'm grateful for those parts. I see the service that they provided for me, but also that update to the operating system that like, oh, no, this part actually isn't needed here with my husband, that there is safety here and making those small adjustments and those budgets to be like, it's okay to say you're wrong. It's okay to, you know, not need to prove a point in this environment. You know, it's, it's, and that's, you know, there's just, there's so much healing work around that. And I'm a mama and I have a three-year-old son. and it's a it's a constant practice in teaching him through certainly words but also just through

our experience together that he's allowed to show up in whatever way that he does that when he does things like draw all over the wall which is a real scenario that we went first. You know, it's like that I'm so clear about like, I love you. You're safe. And like, let's talk about this. Right. And so I can see myself really practicing that. And even in the moments that I do get upset, like taking ownership and accountability and apologizing for that and like not being afraid to bring that forward. So yeah, it's, it's cool to like look at myself as an individual, but then also to look at myself as a mama and to see where there's, all of these opportunities to create, you know, these secure attachments and to really sort of

strengthen that muscle that, yeah, we get through hard stuff together no matter what it is. And I love you and I'm here and you are safe and you are wanted no matter what goes down. Absolutely. I love that. Well, Fiona, thank you so much for being here with me today. It's been great to talk to you. And I know that everyone is going to find this episode very helpful. if you could just let everyone know where to find you and your work.

Yeah, of course. Well, thanks for having me. I love being in a conversation with you about all things family. On Instagram, Mindful MFT as in Marriage Family Therapy. You can get my book, The Origins of You, wherever books are sold. I also am the host of a podcast called This Keeps Happening, where I speak with anonymous guests about challenges, patterns that they're facing in their lives and their relationships with their families, which is a really, they're just beautiful conversations. And then, yeah, New York

Couples counseling. If people are looking for support, I don't take new clients now, but I have wonderful clinicians who can support in New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Florida, California, and Delaware. So, yeah, happy to support if this type of work resonates and lines up for folks. Amazing. Perfect. Well, thank you. much for being here. Thanks, Witt. The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship

between you and Collin-Colm or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home's Terms of Service, link in the show notes below.