CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Therapists React to Gilmore Girls: Mother-in-Laws, Enmeshment, and Money

Episode Date: January 13, 2026

Whitney brings on Amanda White from Therapy for Women to react to the most requested show from her audience, you guessed it: Gilmore Girls. They break down season one, episode 18 "The Third Lorelai," analyzing the dynamic between four generations of women—Emily, Lorelai, and Rory plus the chaotic arrival of Emily's mother-in-law Trix. Even if you haven’t seen Gilmore Girls or this episode, Whitney and Amanda explore the universal experiences of being controlled by a matriarch, how emotional distance in one generation can create enmeshment in the next which in turn can cause estrangement in the next, and the weaponization of money and gifts in family dynamics.Whitney Goodman is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and the founder of Calling Home, a membership community that helps people navigate complex family dynamics and break harmful cycles.Have a question for Whitney? Send a voice memo or email to [e-mail]’s website: https://therapyforwomencenter.com/therapist/amanda-e-white-lpc/Therapy for Women IG: https://www.instagram.com/therapyforwomencenterJoin the Family Cyclebreakers Club⁠⁠Follow Whitney on Instagram | sitwithwhitFollow Whitney on YouTube | @whitneygoodmanlmft⁠⁠Order Whitney’s book, Toxic PositivityLearn more about ad choices. Visit podcast.choices.com/adchoicesThis podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice.04:00 Scene 1: Emily loses control when her mother-in-law visits07:12 Scene 2: Money as connection and control23:04 Scene 3: Weaponizing gifts and criticism440:54 Scene 4: Lorelai’s insecurity49:21 The dinner table scale Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome back to the Calling Home podcast. I am Whitney Goodman. And today I've invited Amanda White to react to an episode of Gilmore Girls. As always, my guest today, Amanda doesn't know what show or episode we'll be discussing. So they're going in blind and we will be unpacking those family dynamics together. We're not here to critique the show itself. Instead, we're going to use it as a jumping off point to talk about real family patterns like intergenerational dynamics, mother-daughter relationships, and the loss of control as your child grows up. Let's go ahead and welcome Amanda to the Calling Home podcast. So this show was the most requested show by my audience to talk about, which was a little bit

surprising to me, but I had never watched this until I was an adult. So we'll see if you have. But many of you and men, I'm sure you are, have watched Gilmore Girls. Have you watched it before? I have, but I actually haven't watched a ton of it. Yeah, same, same. So I feel like it has such a cold following, and I've watched most of these really longstanding, like especially like teenage shows from that era.

But this one always made me so uncomfortable when I watched it. That I don't know. I don't know why I didn't like I feel like I just, I don't know. I watched some of it. But I just wasn't, I never like, I wasn't a loyal follower and I didn't like, I don't know, follow it consistently growing up. Same, same. It did not get the attention that I gave other shows during that era. So I mentioned like this, this one definitely made me feel uncomfortable.

I think the relationship between Lorelei, the mother and her daughter, Rory, was always triggering to me in some way. Yeah. But I've started watching it. I think I've watched like two seasons now. But today we're going to be looking at just one specific episode and talking about the intergenerational dynamics between three women in the family. So for those of you that have seen the show or if you want to go back and watch it, it's season one, episode 18, and it's called the third Lorelei. And so I'm going to give you a little bit of background on the show and the characters in this episode. And then we'll start talking about it.

But as you know, we've got Lorelei, who is the mother. And she's a single mom who had her daughter, Rory, at 16. And she ran away from her wealthy controlling parents. And then today we see Rory as Laurelize's teenage daughter. And she is the granddaughter of Emily Gilmore, who is Laurelize's mother that we're also going to meet in this episode. And Rory is very close with her mother, highly ambitious, very smart. They're very different people. And then Emily, I mentioned, is Lorelei's mother, Rory's grandmother, and her strained relationship with her daughter, Lorelei, is a major theme of the show.

And then we have tricks in this episode, who is Emily's mother-in-law and Lorelai's grandmother. So it's Emily's husband's mom. And then Richard is the only male that we're going to be really seeing in this episode. and he is Lorelai's dad and Rory's grandfather and his mother trips is... Is that the four? Yes. We've got the three women that are related. So biologically, so we have the grandmother, the daughter, and the granddaughter,

and then we have the mother-in-law dynamic coming in in this episode as well. Any questions about the characters? I don't think so. I've never... I know the three generations pretty well. I'm not familiar with the mother-in-law. Okay, perfect. Yeah, the mother-in-law is just like...

a big feature of this episode, and it's interesting. She's not really as involved throughout the rest of the show from what I've seen. But in this episode, we have this opening scene, right, where there's all three generations of women that are sitting at the table and eating together. So Lorelei, Rory, and her, the grandmother, Emily, are together. The mother-in-law is not here at this time. And it's different because the grandfather is usually sitting with them. And he later, he enters later basically to announce that his mother is coming to visit. And Emily, his wife, immediately goes into panic mode. And we don't normally see this from her.

She's very buttoned up and like proper and always in control of everything. And she's now taking everything that her mother-in-law has ever given her, like over the last 35 years out of boxes. She's going in to the attic. She's freaking out. And Lorelei, her daughter is watching her in this moment. And she's freaked out because she never sees her mom lose her cool. And so we see that like this mother-in-law dynamic is one of the only things that can make Emily kind of spiral into this state. And we also find out that this mother-in-law tricks has only visited like once or twice over the last 25 years.

yet they are all revolving around her just because she is coming in to visit. So I'm curious, like, what you think about the power of a mother-in-law to kind of set somebody off in this way. Yeah. I mean, I think that it is an unfortunate, very common thing that happens. I think that there is a level of within-laws where people do, of lose their cool. They do also feel like they need to perform. They need to be a certain way. And yeah, I think that's pretty common. I think it is interesting with what I know about the grandmother. She is very buttoned up. She is very in control. That is surprising to me to hear because I feel like from what I know about the character, other people do that to her. So it is interesting

seeing right her do it for other people. And I think there is this dynamic. where we all sort of do this to each other in this way, where we do it to ourselves and then we teach our children, this is what you do for in-laws or people when you're hosting. And it's like none of us actually want to do it, but we're all doing it and, you know, creating this cycle. Yeah, I think it's, it is so wild to see that this one woman who rarely visits, who's never around can still have this level of impact and control over a person who is so in control of her world all the time. But you're right that it's like Emily doesn't realize, I think, that she is this

person to other people. And like there's a big disconnect there for her in terms of like how she's reacting to her mother-in-law and what she also does to her own daughter in a lot of ways. So in the next scene, we see that Lorelei is laughing a lot, the daughter, about like, how out of control her mom is. And she's enjoying this a lot. Like, it seems like she's really into her mom being a bit out of control. And they're trying to find this hat rack that her mom had given to Lorelei that was actually a gift from the mother-in-law. And this was re-gifted to her like five years ago. And she's insisting that tricks the mother-in-law is going to notice that it's missing. And so the mom is very, very frazzled. And this, I think, is where we see the role of the son of Richard kind of

come in to play, right, and shows a lot of what's going on here. So the mother-in-law is being insanely difficult. Like, Emily is not blowing this out of proportion. She is actually this difficult. And the mother-in-law starts making comments to her son will be like, the majority of, you know, your blood is really strong. Gilmore's don't get sick. And then looks at the granddaughter and says, but your grandmother always gets sick. Like, she's sort of pitting everybody against each other. And she calls her son, my son, in every interaction, like, no matter who she's talking to. And so I'm curious, like, what your experience is with mother-in-laws who only have, you know, sons or one son and how they can kind of contribute to this dynamic with their daughter-in-law.

I mean, I think just in that small phrase, I hear a lot of ownership in that of, like, very visceral in your face you are going to know and be reminded at every turn. this is my son, right? I am closer to him than you, whether, you know, obviously that's implicit, but I think it really just some of the words we use, it changes how people show up, how people feel. It creates a separation too, right? If everyone's calling, you know, the son, I don't know. What is his name? Richard. Richard, right? If everyone's calling him Richard and then it's like my son, there is a level of I own him. I'm closer to him.

I am in control. And that is like a flex over other people. A hundred percent. I feel like it's easy, especially because I think Emily in this show that the grandmother is not a very likable character in a lot of moments that it's easy to be like she's probably playing a role in this. Like she's really dramatic and she's frantic and like the mother-in-law can't be that bad. And it's almost like when you start to see you're like, oh, it is kind of that bad. And that doesn't negate all the shit that Emily does because she can be highly problematic. But I feel like there's all these moments in this episode where we see the mother-in-law very clearly in competition with her daughter-in-law, which reminds me of the ownership thing that you just said.

So she tells Emily to like make appetizers or something. and Emily walks in and she's standing there with a tray. And the mother-in-law is like, am I supposed to eat that cheese? Am I supposed to hold these nuts in my hand? Like because she didn't offer her a plate. And it's like she, instead of saying, hey, could I get a plate or like, do you have any crackers? She chooses to undercut her in those moments. Yeah. And I think that is unfortunately a dynamic that happens when a mother-in-law is insecure, is trying to compete, is trying to be clear, I am the one in control, this is my son, you are lucky, right, that you get to be with him. And like, I could almost take that away from you because I have that much power in my son's life. Yeah. And to still have that

level of confidence that you have that power without visiting, like, at all is kind of crazy to me, that maybe that's where the insecurity is coming into is like, I need to still show that I am this powerful role in his life, even though I'm not around that much. So I'm going to try to assert that. Yeah. And also I'm thinking of like, it reminds me, too, of a lot of in-laws or sometimes family relationships where people don't even genuinely care about the person or at least it's hard to feel that way. but a lot of that when a lot of the energy is spent on the power, the control, the assertion of I am in control. I win, right?

I care about being able to say I have a relationship with someone rather than doing the work, having the vulnerability, right? Even in this case of if you care that much about your relationship with your son, you would think that you would visit often, that you would talk often. But if they don't, right, it's like, okay. So do you care more about the power of it and the control of it rather than actually spending time with the person and living the relationship? Yeah.

It's so true. And it's like, is that what you're getting out of the relationship? Is that? Like, you don't actually want anything else because that's the need that you need to have met. It's not about closeness or, you know, an exchange of ideas or understanding each other. It's really just about like how can I get my needs met as the parent in this situation who has authority over all of you. And through that, I think she's made Emily scared of her. So like she is just walking.

Like Emily can't relate to her either because she is in a constant state of like terror around this woman. So then she kind of goes on to start attacking Lorelei in this, in this, moment. And she looks at her, Lorela is her granddaughter. And she looks at her and says, since the last time I saw you, you had a child out of wedlock, raised that child and still didn't bother to get married. Have I left anything out? And so I'm curious, like, what you think is happening here, like now that she's kind of directing this also at her granddaughter. Yeah. I mean, I think that it's like the next layer of control of, I think what I didn't hear until right now is I think part of this is there is a ton of judgment on Emily that she had a daughter that did this and kind of holding Emily responsible for having this daughter.

And maybe that is a lot of Emily's insecurity is that this is reflected upon her. And I'm sure that it that it is. It seems that she doesn't ask her son about that. She looks mainly just to Emily as or even Lorelei as like these things are, your fault. I'm not going to address them with my son. I'm just going to look at you all as like the problems here, which I think, again, is something that comes up a lot in families where there is a mother that is very protective over her son. Right. And like the son can do no wrong, but the women in the family are always the problem. Yeah, absolutely. And I think right, to dig even deeper,

talk about like pregnancy and childbirth and women, right? I think the other layer is, unfortunately, you know, mother-in-law or not, women are a lot of times the ones that are blamed as moms. We blame the mother so often for having something, you know, that we perceive as going wrong with the daughter, with the children or things like that. And we don't look to, yeah, the man who was equally responsible in raising the child as well. Yeah, exactly. Like he, he's rarely brought into the conversation. I think something in this scene is like that Richard, he's the grandfather, the son, the husband, he seems quite relaxed and like fine during all of these interactions. Like, he's pretty happy, go lucky. He is not responding to the tension in the room in the same way that the women are at

even though this is actually his mother. Like I think he's quite aloof to what's happening. And I think that some people do fall into that of like when they're protected from it or kept on the side from it, it feels like it's not their problem. It feels like they're not responsible for this. And again, it's like there isn't that connection between the two of them of like I am responsible for how my or maybe not responsible, but I have a hand in creating the dynamic that exists because it is my mother. And I think that's what's so hard about in-laws compared to other

relationships is that the, you know, the daughter-in-law or right, if we were talking about, you know, even a son-in-law sometimes, they, you can't give feedback and push back in the same way if the partner who is the child is not engaging in those conversations. Like you really can't be the one to lead the change. And it causes, I think, people to feel very like I'm stuck. I can't, you know, in all the other relationships, maybe in my life, I can set boundaries. I can have hard conversations. And it's not that I don't have the skills to or I don't want to. It's that I'm sort of cut off at the knees because of my spouse and their relationship with their parents. A hundred percent, because you're automatically in this position, right, of like, outsider.

And so if your spouse isn't going to say, hey, mom, when you insult my wife like that at the table and our granddaughter, like, it's a problem and they seem fine with it, and the spouse brings it up, then you're, it's so easy for you to be villainized. Well, my kid doesn't have a problem with it. So it must be you. And I think when you're dealing with a personality like tricks, like this mother-in-law, it's like she's probably not going to take that feedback from anyone. And she's especially not going to take that feedback from the daughter-in-law that seems to not be able to appease her, you know, no matter what she does.

And then it feels like, right, that the son in that case is. is allowing this to happen is okay with this happening because he's sort of co-signing this behavior by not doing anything and by allowing himself to kind of have the privilege of being removed. Totally. And I think in a lot of ways he is because that's how he always had to live. Like it's there's a lot of similarities between his mother and his wife. That's why they really can't exist in the same room in a lot of ways. And I think he has always just been. And I'm with these women that are, you know, overbearing in a lot of ways and maybe controlling. And that allows me to check out and sit back and have everything like done for me in a lot of ways.

And I also don't know what it would be like to challenge any of that. But it's this is where it gets confusing when you have two people like that, I think, in a room is it's like, who is Richard going to defer to in this moment? And he's very much picking his. his mother despite being, I mean, I think Richard and his wife are probably like 60 years old at this point. Yeah. So that's just add such another layer to the whole dynamic. Yeah. And so then we see all of them, you know, Emily gets tricks, everything that she's asking for, like plates and crackers and all this stuff. And once she walks in with that, she's like, oh, it's time for dinner. I would like to sit down. And I guess they had agreed that they were going to eat dinner at seven. And it's

seven, but Emily thought that actually meant like seven 15. And so she says this insulting line about like, when I say seven, I mean seven. Let's go to the dining room and tells everybody to move. And when they sit down at the table, Rory, the granddaughter, says that she wants to go to Harvard. And the grandmother is like, we go to Yale. Like you're not going to Harvard. And then she insults the meal again and gets up abruptly from the table. And so I don't know if this lands for you in the same way. But for me, it was like she cannot have anyone be different from her or do anything else.

Like it's an insult to her if the future generations in the family don't do exactly what has been done. I also think it's interesting that she, despite, right, it sounds like she doesn't have a relationship with Lorelei and it's like not interested in her at all. It is interesting to me that she, even though Lorelei, it feels like is sort of not existent in this dynamic, she doesn't claim her as a relation. She does care enough to claim Rory or have an opinion about what. what Rory is doing, right? And there's no, it's interesting, right, that Rory is so smart and is capable of going to an Ivy League school, going to Harvard or Yale. And still, right, Lorelei is discounted as doing anything right or being a good parent or anything like that. It's so interesting that you say that. I haven't thought about it that way that, like,

in so many ways, Lorelei is just like a vessel for them to get to claim Rory. because Lorelei was ultimately a failure in a lot of ways for them, that they, they treat her as just like an unsurious person who has contributed nothing. And it's almost as if like it wasn't Lorelei's parenting or her, what she did with her daughter that led to this place. It was just like their genetics. And Lorelei was just a bad egg. Yeah. When they've got something else, they have hope with Rory. And so they're going to cling on to that. And even again, like if this mother-in-law, Trixie only visits a couple times a year, it's fascinating to me, again, that she has such an opinion about where Rory goes to school when again, she doesn't have a relationship with Rory pretty much, it seems like.

Right. It's not like she was involved in getting her at all to the place that she is now. Does Emily have a belief around Harvard versus Yale? I don't think so. I think that I think she might, but she's just happy that like Rory is doing something. Yeah. It seems like, you know, Emily is much more loving and attentive towards Rory in ways that she was not able to be with her own daughter. And so I think that's an interesting juxtaposition here that we see a lot with grandparents is that they feel a lot more open to their grandchildren. decisions, you know, then their own child. And I think we see that in like the next scene where it's it's the grandfather, Richard, Lorelei, Emily, and Tricks, the mother-in-law that are at dinner. So Rory is missing from this conversation. And the mother-in-law tricks is upset that they

are loaning money to Lleli for Rory's education. So, at this moment, the grandparents pay for Rory to go to this private, nice private school. And Lur Ler Lai basically says, like, no, I'm going to pay them back. Like, that's something that's very important to her is to pay her parents back. And this really upsets tricks. And she's like, I want to set up a trust fund for Rory that she can get access to now. And Emily starts to panic at this, which I found very interesting. Like she's throwing out reasons why Lurie should.

accept the money. And then she says, if Rory has that money, she won't need you anymore. She says that to her daughter. And Laurel is like, mom, everything in a relationship isn't about money. And Emily continues like to rapidly throw out reasons. And then she ends it saying it's terrible not to be needed. You'll see. So really interesting dynamic here. I think about how Emily felt about her own daughter and also how she feels like she is maybe buying a relationship with Rory. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's really interesting too that, yeah, I mean, it sounds like the subtext of that is that she couldn't buy Lorelei and then she sort of didn't want to maybe after Lorelei made certain decisions. And, yeah. And, yeah.

that it is so interesting. Again, I think it like ties in with wanting to say you have a relationship with someone, but not wanting to actually have one. You want to say, right? Like when you don't actually like one leads into the other. When you don't actually have a relationship with someone, you just want one and you want sort of the parameters and the control around one. Yeah, someone isn't going to be super invested in that relationship because you aren't

providing them with anything. So then you provide them with money, maybe, to be able to be giving them something of value, to be able to try to control them. And then, yeah, if they don't need your money, then the relationship goes away. And it is one of the most fascinating things, I think, of people who want relationships with people, but don't actually want one. And they want to say they have one. And they really want control over the other person. And it's again, it's like this fascinating multi-generational thing where obviously Trixie isn't Emily's mother.

But I think it is fascinating how she can see that in Trixie, maybe even with her husband. But she can't see it in herself and what she's been able to do. And it's almost this struggle between who's going to control Rory, the grandmother or the great-grandmother. Yeah, because they're both wanting to do the same thing. But for Emily, it's so threatening that like this other woman would maybe get to have that control or pass that on. And then she would lose that dynamic. And I find in my experience that I think wealthy parents or parents who provide financial resources are like, the most shocked when their child doesn't want to have a relationship with them anymore. Because

for them, I think they found safety in that providing, right, of like, well, I know they won't cut me off, even if we're not talking because I pay for their school or I pay for their house. And there is some security in that. It's the same security that you get when you have young children of like, they can't leave because they need me, you know, to put food on the table that when a child does that, which is what Lorelei did, right? When she got pregnant, I think I'm getting the facts right. But like, she ran away. She left home and she ended up moving into this really like old dilapidated kind of like one room studio place where she raised Rory for the first, you know, years of her life before she reconnected with her parents later on. And so I think they feel like

that could happen to them again. Like Lorelei, if she had money, could also pull away. from her parents and not maintain a relationship because she doesn't need Emily anymore to pay for Rory's school. So it's all these layers of like, of Emily feeling like, well, if I'm not giving them money, why else would they want to talk to me? And I think it's a sign of that's probably the only love you knew is when you think that money is love and when you've been raised in that way or you've raised, right, that like gifts. are the primary way someone shows affection, you can't imagine, I think, loving another way or receiving love another way. And it is like offensive, I think, in some ways to parents because it feels like

rejection of love when someone else has a different idea. But the problem is, I mean, right, even if we expand to talk about, you know, love languages, right? It's not about giving what you want to give or giving what you would like to receive, the whole point of loving someone or giving someone a gesture or taking care of someone is that you know them well enough or are willing to know them enough to give them something that they value and that it's truly supportive to them versus making it all about you and what you want to give. Like that's not really a gift. I think so often gifts are given with these strings attached and it's why people reject. gifts sometimes. And then people are like, well, I am just so generous. I'm giving you this gift.

How do you not, how are you not just obsessed with this gift? Why don't you want it? And it's because not every people know the strings that are attached to different things. And if you, you know, I think even sometimes people who are generous with gifts have this narrative that they're just so kind and they're so giving. And I'm always when I'm like seeing these patterns, like thinking about how if you are giving a gift with strings attached, you're not just generously giving from your heart. You're not actually, you know, if you have these expectations of how someone will receive your gift or what they'll do with your gift, you're not genuinely giving someone a gift. A hundred percent. And I'm pretty sure I might be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure the condition of them loaning Lorelei, the money for

Rory's education, is that she will come over for dinner every Friday night with Rory. So there are strings attached to that money. It's not just that we want her to get a good education. It's like, no, we want to be able to see you every week. We want to be involved. And they are very involved in Rory's education. But that is how they get their need met of their daughter not like running away from them and disappearing is by chaining her, I think, to this obligation of like every Friday I will see you at my dinner table. And that's how you get the check for your daughter. And I know that you care about your daughter and her education. So you're going to make that happen. And they're all like not operating under this feeling of like, I would like to

see you on Fridays every week because you are generous and kind. And I love spending time. with you, it's more of like, I'm going to make it an obligation that you must fulfill because that's how you get something else out of me, which doesn't feel good for anybody. I don't think Emily feels very much like her needs are being met by that. Yeah. And I think it creates this dynamic where it isn't enough. So then it often people feel the need to do more because it is hollow, having someone only come. And then I think a lot of times, too, it's like, weaponized against people in that way of, well, you only come, like maybe not in this example because it is so blatant like she's being given a check on Fridays.

But I think a lot of times it's less blatant in family dynamics where the sub, it's just like the subtext of things. And then if you don't show up as much as you should, then people get mad. And then there's like, you don't love me. What's happening? You don't care. You don't even appreciate what I'm doing for you. And when that is said, it's, it's revealing that all of these gifts or this generosity did have these strings attached that were maybe just not named.

Yeah, 100%. And I think what's interesting here that's happening is like we see this intergenerational like transmission of anxiety happening here because we have Emily saying to her daughter, Lorelei, like, it's going to be terrible not to be needed. I think they're planning on like Lorelai and her daughter, we're going to go on a trip together to Europe. And her mom's like, why would she go with you anymore if she doesn't need the money from you? She'll get it from her trust fund. And so we then start to see that Lorelei is spiraling a little bit after her mom tells her this. And she's telling her friend about the potential of the trust fund. And Lorelei also still hasn't told Rory about it.

Like, that's how anxious she is. And she says, like, I was thrilled when Grand told me about it, tricks. But my mom cornered me and told me all this stuff about how when Rory gets the money, she's going to move out and she's not going to need me. And she says, you know, how Lorelei had the money with her parents and she still left and she still abandoned that. But I think even though Laurelize, relationship with her daughter is so fundamentally different than her relationship with her mother. I would say they are beyond enmeshed.

Like, if they don't need the money to keep them connected, Lerlai is still taking on what her mother says as, like, being true about her own relationship with her daughter and projecting that. And I think in some ways, sometimes emmashed parents, right, act sometimes, like have the same fear as parents. Yeah. They're like the most anxious. Yeah. Yeah, like the estranged, like they act in a similar way, even though you and I can look at that and be like, you have the opposite problem.

I think that it's still not maybe based in a healthy relationship. Like if you are ameshed so someone is dependent on you for their emotional needs or other things like that, yeah, that's not paving the way for, I mean, Rory hasn't been to college yet. So she's probably not fully 18 yet. But I think the goal of parenting, you know, on a good day is that you want to be able to have a healthy chosen relationship with your adult child, not one where the circumstances are created where your child can't leave you for whatever reason that is. Emotional support or monetary support. And I think it is. And I think it's like because of like generational issues. I think obviously we talk about parenting in a totally different way now, but it is truly

insane how few examples I think there are of truly choice-driven relationships, healthy relationships between parents and adult children because I think it's still a new concept that it hasn't been modeled. Yeah. So then people assume, right, this is the relationship I have with my parents. this is the relationship I'm going to have with you. And they don't think of how you have other probably chosen healthy adult relationships in your life. And those come from free will.

Yeah. And you can also create that with our adult children. Totally. And like actually, I think that's, as you're saying this, I think that's why this show and some others always made me a little bit uncomfortable is because emmeshment has always really actually been glamorized, I think, in these shows. Like, we would see when I was researching for this, like, there's all these, like, edits of, like, Lorelei and Rory and they're so close. And when I look at them, and there's a lot of other examples of this in pop culture, it's like, yeah, it's so cute. They share one brain.

And, you know, Lorelai is always ordering takeout and crying with Rory. And it's actually, like, no, Rory is so parentified emotionally by her mother. She's actually much more of a spouse. house to her mother than she is her child. And in a lot of ways, Lorelei is a wonderful, empathetic, endearing mother, but she had her daughter at 16. And that comes with some challenges, whether Lorelei had good intentions or not, because if I was a mother at 16, I would have made a lot of mistakes, a lot of different mistakes than I'm making today. So it's, it's like uncomfortable for us to think about that like maybe this really intense closeness also isn't great. Absolutely. I think that's a really good point too of how we do glamorize that in some ways.

And we think that because I think we even sort of glamorize that sometimes with sibling relationships, with friend relationships, with spouses. And yeah, I think it makes for good TV and funny, you know, especially when you think about sitcoms. Like I think a lot of, lot about how sitcoms like have set us up for such unrealistic expectations about friendship and things like that. And again, it's like if you have this expectation that you're going to have these three best friends or five best friends and you guys all live together and don't even see your families and all of that, you aren't going to be satisfied necessarily by regular healthy friendships. And the goal of a healthy relationship is both people.

are fully formed and able to live their own life. And what a privilege that then they choose to share it with each other. They choose to spend time together. Yep. That choice is like the greatest privilege of all. Like when I think about like gosh, when I'm at the end of, you know, parenting children, the thought of them choosing to spend time with me is what would fulfill me the most. And I think that's why when we're talking about Emily thinking about, okay, yes, I'm having dinner with my family every Friday and we're sitting down together. But I think she knows right behind that is like, do they really want to be here? Do they actually like me? Or are they only here because I'm forcing them to?

And when you don't like yourself or feel good about what you have to bring to the table, I think it's hard to think. how can I maintain or create these relationships without bribing these people without making it an obligation? And I would guess too, she probably doesn't have healthy relationships with anybody in her life. So she doesn't even probably have a model of what it looks like, even with her husband probably. I think lots of people and their spouses are in relationships because it was the thing to do. It was the next step. It was, you know, convenient, whatever it was. So I think that also creates problems and it makes it difficult to imagine having a healthy relationship. And I think the other thing that people get wrong is, right, I only have one child. So sometimes I'm like statistically,

right? Like I'm going to spend half of my holidays alone, right? And all of those things. But you can have anxiety, fear, sadness, all of those emotions. Like that doesn't mean that we're saying you shouldn't have them or don't need to have them or you're not a law. enough that you don't have them, you just can have those and recognize that those emotions shouldn't be driving all of your decisions around your relationship with your child. Totally. And that they're not always a reflection. So like if your child has a really strong relationship with you and they choose to spend a holiday with their new partner, I think if you are confident in that relationship and it feels good, you leave the reason at that. They want to spend

a holiday with their new partner. It's not because they hate me and they don't love me and I'm a horrible parent because you already know that and you can have lunch with them on a Tuesday and it's just as good, you know, as if you had spent that holiday other. Of course, you can feel sad and lonely and all these other things, but they're not a reflection, I think, of the bond where when you have such an insecure kind of relationship with your kid, those holidays and those choices feel so heavily waited because it's like, well, if I don't spend the holiday with them, that means they hate me. And I'm a bad mom and all these other things that flow in. And I think that leads to like asserting control in the ways that we see Emily doing here.

So when we get to, you know, the end of this episode, we see that there's going to be like a tea between Emily, tricks, and Lorelei. So the mother-in-law and two generations of the family. And Lorelei and Emily are fighting in the restaurant because Lorelei still has not told Rory about the trust. She's obviously feeling something about it. And Emily has this moment, you know, where she kind of admits like that she might have ruined something or did something wrong. and we see this like brief moment of clarity from from emily and where she's feeling like okay I understand why she can't verbalize it but I took it as her kind of having this moment of like

clarity around it and she she feels like how do I say this I think she's saying in this moment like to laurie like please understand why I need it. this, like why I need to have this role in your life. And they agree to keep the agreement of loaning her the money and sending Rory to Chilton and to the private school. And they kind of get rid of tricks. Like she's no longer going to do this trust. And I felt like this was a big moment between Lorelei and her mom where she was kind of understanding her mom's neuroses and needs in this moment, even if they were unhealthy. It was a rare moment of them kind of seeing each other. And maybe it's because they had a common enemy in tricks. But they did decide to like uphold the status

quo, which I don't think was a movement in any particular direction. But it was kind of this understanding between a mother and daughter who I think often don't see each other. Yeah, I think that's, I mean, I think that is also a common thing that that can happen, unfortunately, right? People do well when they have a common enemy and when they have something that they don't want to have happen. And I think it is sad that her mom sort of enrolled her in the danger of the, even though the great-grandmother doesn't seem great.

I think that it is, it was this way of the control pattern continues. And I think interestingly, there would have, I mean, I don't know what strings would have come with Trix's money.

Right. But I think that, right, I think the whole point would be maybe like Rory gets to decide. And there are options given to her. That these decisions aren't made without Rory's consent.

And that there isn't, a feeling of this money is being orchestrated in a specific way. Like maybe the options are like, you can have this money, but you have to go to Yale and then you can make that decision instead of Harvard or, you know, whatever the options were. Yeah, it's funny that you say that because at the end of the episode, you know, Lorelei does tell Rory about the money, but that the decision has like already been made. Like she's telling her about it after the fact. And, you know, they walk off arm and arm to like end the episode.

And so it is like, yeah, she was being honest with her and telling her, which I think is more than maybe her mother would have done with her. But she still was making the decisions for her. And in a lot of ways doing so to not rock the boat for anybody. Like not really thinking about what was best, more about like how can we maintain the current state of the family so that no one has to deal with any increased anxiety. Yeah. And I think it's sort of tied to what we were talking about with, you know, I think part of being a parent is being able to look through your stuff and genuinely wanting what's best for your child. And there are a lot of things we have to, we have to do that aren't maybe what's, you know, best for us personally. Right. Like it would be great if, you know, for some parents, they were their, their child maybe never, you know, you know, had a partner. they lived closer to them or all of those things, but you have to look in context about what your child wants, what's best for them, and giving them freedom that they are a fully, like, I think that's such a core issue that often happens in families is that people don't.

And it's hard, right? Like you have a child. You're very connected to them. You don't see them for a while as even being separate than you. You, you know, in many cases, like birthed them or you got them when they were really young. but that is the journey of being a parent is slowly letting go of your child and allowing them and wanting them to make fully formed decisions because, God forbid, also like you're going to die. Yeah.

They need to be able to live without you eventually too. A hundred percent. And like, there's such a juxtaposition here, I think, between like Emily being this very emotionally distant, disconnected mother that connects through giving money and doing acts of service like that. And she doesn't know how to form connections in any other way. And then the pendulum has swung so far to the other direction with her daughter, Lorelei, who is very emotionally enmeshed with her daughter. And it's like they finish each other's sentences.

They don't do anything apart. And you hope that it's going to come back to somewhere in the middle. because in some ways both of those styles are a little bit too far on the extreme. And Rory has great amazing qualities, but I think also is like a victim of kind of the way this stuff has been passed down. And a meshment a lot of times can create a strangenment too. Because there isn't that choice, there isn't separation, people can feel so smothered that the only way they know how to get out of it is like ending contact or a huge separation for a period of time. Yeah.

I actually find that like estrangement is often more likely with emmeshment because those kids can't get any distance. So they have to like you're saying, do this big act of pulling away where if you're in more of like a distant relationship with your parent, you don't have to cut them off a lot at the time because they allow for that distance and distance. So when parents will say things like, why can't we just have a surface level relationship or just see each other every now and then, it's because you're not allowing it. And especially with like cell phones and social media, I mean, it's like these people can find you all day everywhere that until you block them and

cut off contact, it's like you're choosing between one or the other. It doesn't feel possible to have any separation. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, yeah, it's crazy how it, what they want, right? Or what they need in that, in that enmeshment is like the circumstances that then cause. It's like this self-fulfilling prophecy. Yes. Yes. Yep. Exactly. And when you, when you keep, you know, pursuing that closeness, it's like you just get more and more distance. It's like they're strangling, you know. And it's, it's really hard. And I, I don't, I haven't seen enough. of this show to see kind of like how their relationship plays out, but it's a dynamic I could see

happening at some point if like distance is not able to be achieved at all. All right. So now something that I do at the end of all of these episodes is ask you about our dinner table scale. So this is just to ask you if you would like to sit at this table with this family. So if we're thinking about sitting down at the dinner table with the mother-in-law and these three generations of women and Richard. And on a scale of one to five, one being like, absolutely not. This is the most toxic, harmful dynamic. And five being like, I would pull up a chair.

It's pretty healthy, respectful, connected. Where do you think you would land? I mean, I feel like I should reserve one for like physical abuse. But a one and a half, a two. I mean, given my own also like, I, the idea of it sounds terrible to me. The, like, iciness of these two women sounds very terrible and not something I want to be around at all. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. It's funny. You're the first therapist to not ask me, am I sitting down at the table as a therapist or as just a person? I'm always

like, would that change your decision? And some people are like, yeah, because it would be so interesting to analyze and watch, but if it was just me as a person, I would not want to sit there, which is true. It seems like the Gilmore House has like pretty decent food. It's a nice house. Like I could tolerate that part, but the dynamics seem highly uncomfortable and not very fun. Yeah, I think no matter how good the food is, I'm not interested. I'll eat at home. That's all right. Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Amanda for joining me today. I really appreciate it. And if you could just let everyone know where they can find you. Yeah, absolutely. So you can find me on my podcast, Nuance Needed. I host it with Sam Dalton, who is also on the podcast, I know with you. And you can also find me on Instagram at Therapy for Women,

or if you're looking for therapy, I have a national practice called Therapy for Women's Center. Awesome. Thank you so much. The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy. services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship between you and Collingholm or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Holmes Terms of Service linked in the show notes below.