CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Therapists React to Shameless and What the Show Gets Right About Parentification

Episode Date: April 7, 2026

Whitney is joined by therapist Emma Mahony to break down one of the most unflinching portrayals of a parentified child on television: Fiona Gallagher from Shameless. Through neglect, addiction, manipulation, and moments of genuine heartbreak, they explore what it does to a child when taking care of your family becomes your entire identity. Emma Mahony is a mental health therapist based in London whose work centers on helping people understand the patterns they grew up with and how to move toward healthier, more conscious relationships with themselves and others. Emma’s website: https://www.ecmtherapy.co/Emma’s IG: emma.in.therapyEmma’s TikTok: @emma.mahonyWhitney Goodman is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and the founder of Calling Home, a membership community that helps people navigate complex family dynamics and break harmful cycles.Have a question for Whitney? Send a voice memo or email to [e-mail] the Family Cyclebreakers Club⁠⁠Follow Whitney on Instagram | sitwithwhitFollow Whitney on YouTube | @whitneygoodmanlmft⁠⁠Order Whitney’s book, Toxic PositivityThis podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome back to the Calling Home podcast. Today I am joined by therapist Emma Mahoney, whose work centers on helping people understand the patterns they grew up with and how to move toward healthier, more conscious relationships with themselves and others. We are going to be doing another TV episode and we're talking about one of my all-time favorite shows about dysfunctional families, shameless. This show is chaotic, heartbreaking, funny, and painfully real. And I think it is one of the most honest depictions of some of the most dysfunctional family dynamics that we can see in a family. We're going to be talking about neglect, addiction, survival, parentification, emmeshment, trauma, resilience, loyalty, and what it means to grow up in a system that is

constantly pulling you under. If you haven't seen the show, totally fine. My guest host hadn't either. And we are going to talk about each character, the role they play in the family, what drives their choices and what their stories can teach us about real life family dynamics. We are especially going to focus on Fiona Gallagher, who is the parentified eldest daughter in this family and how she has built her entire identity around survival and responsibility. So if you have been parentified emotionally, physically, logistically, this is a great episode for you as well, or if you just love the show, Shameless, I think you'll like this one. Let's go ahead and welcome Emma to the Calling Home podcast. The show that we're going to be

talking about today, I've watched this show so many times and maybe you've seen it. But I think it's one of the most like chaotic and really painful descriptions of a very, very dysfunctional family. So have you seen the show shameless ever? I knew you were going to say shameless. This is really crazy because I have watched so much TV. and I actually have not watched Shameless. But I have read a lot about it. A lot of people bring it up even in therapy. Yeah.

Which is so funny. My sisters have all watched it. So I've watched things who are fans. But as soon as I said, like, one of the most dysfunctional families. Yeah. He's going to say shameless. This is one that, like, I think is so on the extreme end, obviously, of dysfunction. But I want to use it today really to talk more about,

Fiona, who is the parentified oldest daughter. So that'll be most of what we're talking about is kind of like her rise and fall as being the like the chosen one kind of as the oldest daughter to take on all of that. Love that. I'm going to start by really just giving you and everyone listening a breakdown of the characters in the show. And if you feel like you want to take notes on this or anything, don't hesitate because I know it's a lot to keep track of and you can ask and you can ask questions as well. So Fiona, you might know that's played by Emmy Rossum. She is the oldest child. And from a young age, she really becomes like the de facto parent. And we'll see that play out in some of the scenes that we're going to talk about. And her whole identity is like survival responsibility and really being loyal to her family and the younger children in her family. And then we have Lip who is her brother. And he's the oldest.

male in the family. So he's younger than Fiona, but he is the oldest of the brothers. And he kind of switches like between being that parentified child and also being like he's gifted. He has lost child vibes. Like he moves around. And we'll see this battle between him and his sister. Like when his sister isn't being enough of a parent, he kind of resents having to be put into that role. So I see them switching back and forth a lot. And then Ian is the next brother underneath them. And he is like the identified patient often. He has a lot of mental health struggles, very similar to his mother. And we see struggling a lot throughout the show as well. And then Debbie is next. in line, she is the other daughter in the family, very eager to please. She doesn't really understand.

I think a lot of the time what's going on in the family and a lot of the dynamics end up playing out with her because she doesn't have a full grasp on it. And then Carl is like the more delinquent acting out kind of child that is trying to seek structure, but always is falling into chaos. And then in this episode, we're going to see something happen with Liam, who is the youngest child. And he's about, I think he's like three at the time of this episode. And he's really being raised by all of these siblings. I would say he's had the least contact with the parents of all of them just because of his age and what was going on at the time of his life. So Fiona is definitely much more of a mother figure to him. And then the two parents who you've probably seen, you know, when you've seen clips of this show,

that Frank is an extreme alcoholic, passes out on the street, he's never around. He's absolutely not an attentive father. He's an addict, a lot of narcissistic traits. And then Monica is their mother who is not in a lot of episodes. So she comes in in this episode that we're going to talk about now. But she definitely has periods of extreme mania. and then depression where she is in bed basically cannot speak, doesn't get up. So really this like extreme portrayal of what that can look like.

So that's our family. Any questions that you have about that? Yeah, I mean, they sound fun. I'm like, I can watch the show. I know it's like one of those shows where I'm like, once I commit, I'll commit. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah, now I'm excited to hear more about it.

It's a good like binge watch. I know. I'm like, check it out. Not that we ever hope for COVID to come again, but you're like, I know. It's good for TV watching, for sure. All right. So now that we have a little bit of a handle on the family, we're going to start with this scene where Monica, the mother, is back. And she has disappeared for a non-explained period of time, but I think it's been a while. It could have even been like years at this point. And the parents all wake the kids up at one o'clock in the morning.

So all of these kids are like seven and under. And it's 1 a.m. on a school night. They wake them up. They bring them downstairs to watch this like bootlegged, very violent movie. And the parents, Monica and Frank, are smoking weed. And Debbie, the younger girl is like, we have school tomorrow. I don't think Liam should watch this. And she's clearly uncomfortable and not okay.

but Monica is back. And so they're kind of like, okay, maybe we should spend time with our mom. And in the morning, the kids wake up and they are so tired, they can barely keep their eyes open. And Monica asks Debbie, the daughter, to like go outside and wake up her dad because he's passed out in the alley from drinking. And it's a very normal occurrence for them to do that in the house. And in this moment, Monica says something to,

Fiona who is not trusting of like why she's back and how long she's going to stay. And she says, it doesn't all have to fall on you. I'm here. And she's super manic and like baking cookies and moving the furniture around. But then right after that, we see that Monica finds where the family keeps all of their money. They like all pitch in and keep their money in this can in the kitchen and that's what they use to buy groceries and pay for bills. And she takes everything. And she takes everything. So right after saying this to her oldest daughter, they get a car, her and Frank, and they take Liam. And Liam is like not even in a car seat. He's on the floor. And they're drinking and driving and they get drugs and they're screaming at each other. And then they,

you know, go on this drug fueled bench. So based on what I've told you so far, like I'm wondering what is just your first impression of this mom coming back. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So, oh, my God bless Fiona. First of all, when you hear something like that, it's so much, when you think of a parentified daughter, you think of, okay, this person usually becomes someone who as an adult has probably a lot of difficulty trusting people and especially like someone to own up to their word to say, like, be accepting of help. And in that example, you kind of just described exactly what's happening.

Like someone's words are completely not aligning. with the actions that they take. So yes, of course she's, I don't know how she evolves as she continues to grow up, but that's just truly a textbook example of, oh, you're saying one thing, but you actually mean the other. And in a case, that's like really dangerous, not just something that, you know, could be swept under the rub. Like people's lives are impacted at this point, like people's finances,

where they'll get their next meal. So, I mean, like, just thinking of this girl in her nervous system, like what that does as she becomes a grown adult. And how can you trust people if, you know, someone who is supposed to be that for you is saying, no, no, you could take, like, you don't need to worry about this and then doing the complete opposite. 100%. I mean, I think what we see in this season, like, as a whole or in the show as a whole is like Fiona's inability to accept help and relax. And I think you could look at her and be like, why is she taking all this on? You know, she doesn't have to do it. She's a kid. But she's been conditioned to believe, obviously, that that is her role.

And you're right, it's life-threatening. I mean, if someone doesn't take care of this three-year-old, what's going to happen? And so I think we see Fiona in this moment sort of ask herself, like, can I relax? Like, can I let my mom take over? And in a matter of minutes, like, it all goes to shit. Like, she, her mom has not been able to uphold her promise at all. Mm-hmm. And complete inconsistency.

And I'm sure people would say, like, oh, that's so nice. Like, that your mom came back and, like, told you that you didn't. It's like, no. To be a mom or to act as mom are very different things, especially in the situation. Yeah. Totally. And I think Fiona knows on some level that her mom coming back is ultimately a bad thing. It's going to cause more drama and chaos than help. Like they want her to stay away, I think is at the core of this. And when she comes back, it's like a big mess to clean up. Not even, you know, you can't see these scenes. But for those of you that have watched it, like she does just feel like a hurricane. Like I think if you've been around a mom or a person like this that is like really elevated, like experiencing mania and they just cannot stop. It's really dizzying to be around. Yeah. And there's no facts to actually back up

the situation of like you can relax. Like she's not providing options for her to relax. So like, I'm going to do this for you. I'll take on this. There's actual no meat behind what she's saying. Exactly, exactly. So in the next scene in this episode, we see Monica come into the house and she's been shopping all day at the American Girl Doll store, I think after she had done all these drugs. And she brings home like a hundred dolls to her daughter, Debbie, and they are just crowding the living room. And we see Monica then take Ian to sign up for. the Army. He's only 17. He hasn't graduated from from high school yet. She has a meltdown in the Army office because they tell her like, let your kid finish school and come back later. And then she's making hundreds of cookies. And after that, she gets Carl, who's, I don't know, he's maybe like 10 at the time to drive her in the car and a wreck. And we see Carl like with like a bloody face, you know, the cops are there. She has him jump over into the passenger seat and they arrest

Monica and then she is sitting in jail. And we, it sort of pans to her son's face of like he's clearly ashamed and embarrassed and scared and he really wants to get out of there. And like, I'm curious your thoughts about a parent that can, I mean, this is so much chaos. I know. I'm so stressed. right yeah what what do you think about the impact of a parent who really i mean she's able to come home and in a matter of like 24 hours really negatively impact and almost almost kill multiple members of her family it's crazy yeah i mean i i know i already like mentioned like your nervous system but like truly what does this do to a child and like their associations with that person um Like now probably, I'm sure when they think of Monica or this person in their life, they associate it with like chaos and not being able to regulate and also like fear for their own safety and their life.

But it also sounds like it's not predictable of when she will come back or when she will enter their life. but also they don't necessarily have that choice because she is their mother. And they are so young. So they can't necessarily say, like, I don't want to get in the car with you or I don't want to do that because they're minors. Yep. And that's so true. And I think on the other side of that coin is like they might even be excited to like spend time with their mom, even if it's doing these illegal, dangerous activities. Yeah.

I mean, even when you said the American Girl Dolls store, like, that's love bombing, right? It's like, if someone gave me 100 American Girl dolls when I was younger, I'd be like, this is the best person in the world. But obviously, a normal same person would be like, okay, but if that's the one day of the year, they come home and do that, like, how sustainable is that actually it is kind of just complete love bombing from a parental figure. Totally. And so much inconsistency of like, okay, I'm getting American girl dolls today and going joyriding around the neighborhood and she's here and making my sandwiches. But what is the fallout of that going to be tomorrow when she leaves? That I don't know that any of them, when you speak about their nervous system, like no one can relax in this woman's presence. I mean, when I'm watching it, it makes me feel anxious. Just her frantic energy. Yeah, and they're also holding on to maybe they associate that with good memories of like getting all those dolls or feeling that excitement of, oh, when mom comes back, it is like a really exciting day. And I don't necessarily know if it's good excitement, but I know that a lot of foundational memories happen or there is a lot of chaos, excitement, energy in the household, whereas maybe our day today is feel much more like sad and monotonous. So after we see this like jail cell moment, they discover at the house that Monica has stolen all of the money. And Lip is furious, the oldest brother that I told you about.

And he immediately starts blaming Fiona of like, you know what she's like. Why would you leave her around the money? Like the first rule in this family is hide the money for. from Frank and Monica because obviously they have stolen the money for drugs from the family many times before and this isn't the first time. Like Monica didn't even think, why would my family have this jar of money labeled, you know, with dates and they live in this very like old dilapidated house where they can barely afford food. Like obviously she didn't even think past like what she wanted to do with that money. And Fiona says something really eye-opening. She says,

she seemed better. I thought it might be different this time. I know, right? Who sad? Yeah. Why is that your reaction to that? I mean, I feel like that happens a lot with people like just in this show and also like you see clients in therapy all the time. Like people, a lot of people really, really do want to believe. And like we're therapists. We know we hope for people to change and grow. And you see maybe glimpses of that. And you see maybe glimpses of that. And, you hold on to that. So I'm sure there's a lot of hope that she has that things will change. And it benefits her if her mom does change because she's been taking on all of this for her family, like this motherly, maternal caretaker role. So I'm sure she is desperate for her mom to show

change and have change. And I'm sure she would attach to any sense that that was happening. So they're clearly was something that felt maybe different this time. But I don't, I mean, Fiona, even though she's responsible in terms of her family and probably the most sane, she also is like still a child at the end of the day. And so she doesn't really have the emotional maturity and bandwidth to understand like, oh, this isn't actually sustainable. And like just because she's nice and makes these verbal promises. I don't know if she has enough history or understanding to know that that's not a long-term solution. Totally. I feel like every time I look at this girl, I'm like, oh, my God, she needs a break.

She just wants to like take a nap and not have to think about all of the things that have been put on her from like, where is their next meal going to come from to where do all these kids need to be all the time? Like she was thrown into a role that she didn't ask for at such a young age. And I think being a parent who is an adult that's like established and all that of, of multiple young kids is hard on its own. And then you give that job to a teenager who doesn't have resources or support. And it's like it's, it's impossible. She's doing a much better job than her parents, but that doesn't take much. You know, these kids are still, I think, experiencing deficits in terms of like what they're getting from caregiving.

But I think Fiona is clinging to something that is so common, especially among like adults, even with bad parents is the fantasy of like they're going to change this time. And it would feel so nice to be able to believe in that fantasy. I don't know if you see that in your work, like just this unrelenting. desire for that and like commitment to believing it could be possible. Yeah. And I think a lot of it doesn't serve us to think completely black and white. So when you see like a little color of good that that is evidence that there is something there, right?

And it's really hard to sit with someone and say like, okay, but is that glimpse like enough to sustain like a healthy normal relationship? And it's obviously really hard to tell some of that, especially. someone who's a teenager of like, don't get attached to this because this could. But, you know, you want to believe that that glimmer of hope is like the step towards something really, really great. But also if you check in with reality of the situation and the feedback that you've gotten before, that's a lot harder to confront.

Totally. Like when you have to look at the data instead of the fantasy, like the data is painful. And I think it just continues to tell you like I might be stuck in this role for a while. And I think Fiona even just wanted like one day. Yeah. I was probably like probably in the 20 minutes where she thought maybe there was a change for probably the nicest 20 minutes. She's had in a while. It's true. It's true. And so after that, you know, we see. they cut to Monica has obviously kind of crashed here and gone back into a state of depression, whether that's fueled by her bipolar disorder, all these drugs that she's been doing. But she is stuck in bed. And this is such a sad scene where Fiona is over her, like yelling at her, get out of bed, mom, you promised me. And the house is a disaster.

Monica is crying. And she's very like, she's like, she's like, catatonic. Like there's no life behind her eyes. She's not speaking and her daughter is in front of her in such distress. And I, I just immediately had this thought of like, how many times has Fiona been over her mother like this, like yelling this same? Yeah. And I'm sure it creates this distrust within herself too of like, not that she's embarrassed, but she like wants to believe in her mom. And she's like, okay, now this is my responsibility. I have to pick up the pieces.

But I feel bad for giving you this opportunity to prove me wrong because this kind of set our family back a day, a week, a month. I mean, financially sounds like a while. Totally. That's such a good point because I think in the end, especially with how Lip kind of like points the finger at Fiona, all the younger kids really got to like lean in to Monica's chaos and get caught up in it. And yes, there were some consequences for.

them. But at the end of the day, Fiona has left, like, holding everything bad that happened during that time where her mother was causing chaos. She has to clean it up. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, really sad. But she also doesn't, I'm not sure, like, have the illegal or a way to actually separate herself from the situation. So it's like, there's, you can say to her, like, create boundaries, but that's actually not necessarily something she can do legally or emotionally at this point. 100%. There's such real consequences for that. And when we're talking about like the lives of children and of her siblings that she obviously cares about,

I think what you're saying is so true. She's constantly choosing between like self-protection and protecting those kids. And then a lot of times she loses. in that battle. It's interesting that you bring up, like, the legal route because the next scene that I wanted to talk about happens in the episode after this, I believe, or like two episodes later, where Frank, her dad reports the kids to CPS. And I don't totally remember, like, why he does this.

I think he's trying to get some sort of, like, social security benefit or something weird, but regardless, the kids get taken and put into foster care with the exception of Fiona and Lip. It's like all the younger kids. They get put in like different homes and Fiona finds out through the CPS worker that it was Frank that called and she hears him on a recording. So you've got your own father who is a completely absent abusive alcoholic parent reporting you to CPS and all the kids get taken. And I just felt like this was the biggest betrayal, like from a parent. It's so, it's inconceivable that this would even happen.

And I don't know what he stood to gain from that except for maybe power and control over Fiona of like, look what I can do to you. I can take something that's so important to you. Like, why do you, do you have any, like, thoughts about why a parent would do that? I mean, that's, I mean, there's, there's so many things there because, one, it's obviously, when we can't even, like, go into the whole foster system as a whole, obviously, we know that's not always the, the safest, best place to have a kid. But knowing that Fiona probably took the best care that anyone could within their situation,

of these children, it's not having the kids' best interest. And obviously, like, Fiona is one of the situation who's definitely really, really struggling with the fact that she has to take care of them. But it is at the end of the day, someone being like, at the end of the day, I am the parent and I do have this power over you. And it kind of goes back to this power imbalance. Like, no matter what you do, I still will have power over you. And I think that's something you see even within, you know,

therapy and family. dynamics all the time is, well, I'm the parent and like I get the final say or, I mean, people use it with money with a lot of things that we see even just in family dynamics now. But there is an element of that too of, you know, you can only do so much. Maybe the kids feel safest with you. Maybe they trust you the most. But I make the final call because I am the parent. Right.

Exactly. And it's like Frank doesn't want any of the duties or resists. responsibilities of being a parent, right? He doesn't financially support his kids emotionally. He doesn't physically provide for them. He is absent for periods of time. But he does still want that level of control over them to some degree. And so we see at the end of this episode that there is a custody hearing where Fiona and Frank are both there and they're both fighting for custody of the children. So we have this eldest daughter who has been doing all of the labor, I think from a very, very young age, against her father that she's been essentially doing everything for him all of this time.

And Frank is such a master manipulator in this moment, you know, telling the judge, I'm sober. I had to leave my family just to, you know, get good for my kids. And we see this moment where Fiona looks at the judge and it's like, are you actually buying this? And, you know, he kind of is. And I want to point out that Frank has a rap sheet that's literally a hundred pages long. Like he has been convicted of every crime, you know, that you can think of. And the judge still seems to really be deferring to him in this moment. Yeah. I wonder if that's like gender dynamics, obviously. I mean, no one, I don't think it's smart to say like live with the 17 year old daughter. But if you were in the situation that is the best case scenario it sounds like for the well-being of these children.

Yeah. I thought what was so interesting in this moment is like the judge starts asking the kids about how they feel about Frank and Debbie and Carl. They're all saying really positive things about him because he had been putting on a show in like the two weeks leading up to this custody hearing of like taking them to the public pool. And I think he got Carl into camp by pretending that he had cancer. And so he went to a kid's camp for cancer. But Carl doesn't realize how insane that is. And so there's all this manipulation that I just think as the parentified oldest daughter, you're looking at this and you're like, am I insane? How does, how do all these people not see what we have lived through because of this man? And I don't know if you see adults feeling like that about their parents.

Like they're such a different person in certain settings than they are with them. Yeah. Well, that's such an interesting point you even bring up. I feel like you see this a lot too with like children of divorce, especially maybe like over the holidays. You know, you have maybe the full-time caregiver and then maybe the more absent parent, you know, comes in during the holidays with the big gifts. and the, maybe like the Christmas cards are like an outward display of the family looking normal and happy and healthy. And then the real life dynamics are, well, that's actually not the case.

You know, this person lives with this person, 365 days of the year. And a lot of things are, you know, to present a specific image. But, you know, you can really make anyone believe anything if you have a specific audience. whether it's social media, you know, people in the town, especially because you're probably going to trust an adult's word over a child or a 17-year-old daughter, especially, you know, the reputation that teenage girls get as well. I totally agree. I think that we defer to adults pretty much all the time, right?

Even the most dysfunctional and, like, abusive of adults, we will often hold their word over a child. And I just think for Fiona, she must have no ability to trust herself and like her own inner knowing because she's constantly being told that like she's wrong or people are letting her down or questioning her even though she's been the only consistent person in these kids lives for like a decade. Yeah. And then I'm sure that messes with her and like people in similar situations as well. Like, is this what adulthood looks like? Is this what actual relationships look like? Like, I'm confused. I thought this was actual caretaking, but do I have it all wrong?

Like, if adults who are supposed to be wise and all-knowing and the ones who take care of children are acting in this way, like, am I engaging wrong? Yep. I think you said this earlier about, like, you can be a parent but not actually do any parenting, right? And I wrote this down when I was prepping for this episode that like Frank doesn't actually want Fiona to succeed in this parenting role because it feels threatening to him. Even though he's not fulfilling this role in any way, I think it's a power thing for him. Right. And him losing custody of his children would mean that he has lost authority, power over their life. He can't.

I mean, he's in the house like making a mass passing out everywhere. but he gets to claim that like I'm your father. So I get to do what I want. And I think he wants to hold on to that, but surrender everything else, you know, to Fiona, which it doesn't work like that.

No. And that it doesn't have the kids' best interest at the end of the day. It has, it all comes back to him and what makes him look the best. And yeah, I don't know because I haven't watched, but it sounds a little narcissistic. Oh, 100%.

I, think he really is when they're writing this show I think they like look at the list of narcissistic traits and they're just like how can we have friends okay okay all of these out diagnose him but yeah no he's he's like pathological to a degree where it's like they're trying to make it very obvious I think and it's hard to tell sometimes what is his alcoholism and what is his narcissism but they're both like interacting all the time I think the next scene I wanted to talk about is I I think one of it was, it's so painful for me to watch it when I went back and watched it. Again, prepping for this, I was like, gosh, it's still so horrible.

But we see this moment in the show, I think, where we really watch Fiona collapse under the weight of this parentified child role in a way with a lot of consequences that's very dangerous. And they're having a party late at night in their house, which is something that happened a lot. And the neighbors are over, you know, all the kids are there. Lipp and Debbie come home and Liam is three at the time. And we see that Fiona is doing lines of cocaine off of the counter. And a couple of minutes later, it cuts to Liam being unresponsive on the floor. And there is like white powder on his face. And he got into her cocaine.

And, you know, they, Frank at this time, is passed out in like a sweat lodge somewhere unresponsive. Like he's not doing any parenting. But they, the police end up coming and they arrest Fiona. And so it's like this moment, I think, where to me, I felt a lot of resentment towards Fiona. Like, I don't know. When I tell you this story, what do you feel towards her as like the adult in the home

at that time? I mean, I'm sure. I'm like, I see someone who probably doesn't know how to healthly cope. Probably, I'm sure, like, maybe was using drugs as a way to numb a lot of things that she was experiencing. So I feel sad for her in the sense of that probably was the best option for her at the time. But, yeah, you're just like, oh, no. I know. But then I'm like, then I'm putting the pressure on her. I'm like, and you already...

Exactly. No, I felt myself being like, I'm angry at you. I think you're irresponsible. You should have never had drugs in the house with those kids. Like, and then, of course, you know, we can step in as therapist and be like, okay, this is all the behavior she had models for her. And I guess the part I got back to that was shocking to me is like, how did this happen to her?

And it never happened to her parents, like, who had drugs and alcohol and criminal activity around their kids all the time, but she's the one that ends up getting arrested. Like, it's bad luck to some degree. It's not like she was being so much more irresponsible than everyone around her was. They were all doing the same thing. I know. And I'm like, that's life sometimes. That's what's unfortunate. It's like, you know, I, but you, it's like, we probably the viewers are putting this pressure on her of like, no, but we actually really need you to be responsible, but which is what the whole family feels. And I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, exactly. And obviously it's unsafe and not good what she was doing, but like we're not, I'm sure, putting that same

emphasis of you have to be the one that saves his family on anyone else but her. And there were a lot of other adults in that house at the same time, right? And I think that's what's what I I thought after the fact I was like, okay, well, why am I not upset? I guess I looked at her as like, okay, you are this three-year-old's pseudo-mother. You're in charge of like protecting him. And so he was the most vulnerable to me in that moment, even though she was never protected by anyone either. It's like it's, it's a test of like how much empathy can you hold, I think, for all the different perspectives in this moment. But I think this is where we really see Lip again point the finger at Fiona.

He was in the house when this happened to. But he ultimately blames her and is like, I don't care if she gets a lawyer. I'm not bailing her out of jail. We're not doing anything for her. And I'm wondering what you think about that sibling dynamic in this moment. Yeah. I mean, what would that look like for him, though? Would he take on the roles that she was doing?

Like, does he even know how much that entails? I don't, I think he steps in, like, when it's necessary. But otherwise, he doesn't. I don't know if he understands, like, it's a good point, like, what that would feel like to carry that every day. In my mind, it's almost like he has been failed by both of his parents. and now his older sister is in that position. And so when she lets him down, it's just far too painful for him.

Because he now is like, who do I look up to? Like, I don't have an adult either. Yeah. It sounds like he also put in a lot of trust in her. But also probably sounds like there's like some attachment things there as well of as soon as he feels like maybe hurt or rejected by her. He completely wants to shun her. out of his life. But then it also sounds like maybe there's a bit of like mental load. And again,

like things that happen. And obviously they're not in a relationship, but there sounds like to caretakers in the home. Yeah. And probably not fully understanding all the rules that she's took on within the family and how much she is needed. Totally. And I think lip points the finger a lot, you know, from his own like pain. But this is definitely one of those. moments where even though Fiona is repeating, I think, some of the behaviors of her parents, you know, she's doing drugs in the home and there's kids and all this stuff. Like, the way that she responds to being arrested and to being accused of this is so fundamentally different from her parents. So she immediately kind of goes into, this is on me. I should have known better. I should

have protected Liam. She pleads guilty in court to child endangerment. And I think when we juxtapose that to her parents who have never taken responsibility for a single thing in their life or apologized, even though this happened on her watch, she's still very much like breaking a cycle in my eyes. I don't know if it feels like that for you. Yeah. Well, I mean, so much of her life, it sounds like is being responsible and like taking on responsibility. And it sounds like, I'm sure she's someone who's then become like very hypercritical look like her own role and her own actions, whatever they may look like. So that is something that I feel like is breaking the cycle. And obviously like she was born into a family in a dynamic like this.

I don't think she acted in a way that was so different than, you know, what other people in her life were doing. But it sounds like she acknowledged like this isn't healthy for me or my family or where I want us to all go. Yeah. It's this weird question of, of like, I think for the viewer of, like, are the expectations that we put on some of these children in these systems, like, totally fair to break every single cycle and to be responsible, to be the most responsible with zero role models? Yeah, because I'm sure she's even realizing in that moment that that's a cycle that she has to break of. And I think that happens a lot for people, like, when they work on themselves or, like, address their upbringing.

of not even realizing the patterns that have been existing within their family for generations and not even realizing that they are breaking it or how actively they were engaging with something subconsciously. Totally. So, yeah, it's not like her parents were telling her that she has to break this cycle, but it kind of sounds like it was innate within her, which is also very special. Yeah, exactly. I actually think they don't want her. I think Frank especially doesn't want Fiona to break any cycles. I think he wants her to fail under the pressure because then he can show like, see, I didn't do so bad of a job because he also couldn't succeed at this. And I think this would even make him sort of happy in a way that like this is what everybody in the family is doing. And so he can do it too. Yeah, and what would that look like for an older man to have a young woman do something that he couldn't do?

Right, right. With certainly less experience at a younger age. And I think that's the crazy thing about Frank is they definitely bake this, like, trait into him that he is highly intelligent. Like you can tell that he could have been something had he not been. so bogged down by his addiction and his narcissism and all of that that he can never break out of it. But he's definitely very, very smart, I think, and a skilled, like, manipulator. Yeah, it sounds like that. It's very interesting.

So, you know, I think we see here, of course, I mentioned that Fiona pleads guilty. She gets sentenced and they're trying to find Frank or they're going to put Liam into foster care because he is the youngest child that this happened to. And so they find Frank and they get him back in the house and they immediately show that the kids are all taking care of Liam. Fiona's on house arrest. And Frank is doing drugs in the house with his daughter who's on probation and can't be around drugs and the kid who just got the ability to go home and be with his father instead of going to foster care. And I think it's so wild that not even that could shake a parent out of what they've been doing. Like, it's hard for me to imagine it personally. Yeah, it is. And, but it's, I'm guessing it doesn't

feel too abnormal in the family. Like, dysfunction is their normal. We talked about like that, that fantasy of like a parent changing. And I feel like this is one of those big moments that you realize, like, okay, if my three-year-old brother OD'd on cocaine, almost died, went in foster care, sister got arrested, and that still doesn't make you change. I think it's time for that fantasy to die. Yeah, and that's a really sad realization of,

because I do think a lot of people hold on to a hope of some big, grandiose thing being like, this is what's going to do it for them. And then it's really, really sad when that thing it does happen or you do communicate that need or that boundary and nothing changes. And it's, it's really, really upsetting. It's so upsetting. I feel like a lot of the adults that I speak to who have that fantasy are kind of like, well, maybe if somebody got diagnosed with an illness or there was this big accident or like we went through this trauma as a family, like they would

realize what was important to them and they would come back around and you're right. It's it's so much more painful when that actually happens and you realize, wow, they still, like, whether they're incapable or unwilling, whatever it is, they're still not doing it. Yeah. And then you put that on yourself of like, oh, was I not worthy enough of like having them want to change when, I know I always try to tell people and myself, like really don't attach yourself to this, this fantasy or this outcome. And I love like dreaming and hoping and like manifesting things from myself. But I'm like it's the calm down is really, really hard when you attach to an idea of something.

Yeah. And especially when that idea I think hinges on somebody else doing something, right? It's like the caveat that you're making that if we say, I will be this or I will feel this or this good thing will happen to me. If and when they do this other thing, very dangerous. And when you see your worth.

through them changing. Also, huge letdown. Yeah. Yeah. And it's worse, honestly, than what happens before of like the hope. The hope is much more fun. A hundred percent. Yeah. So, thank you so much for walking me through that episode. I think people are going to learn a lot from your analysis and your commentary. But I want to ask you kind of my last question that I ask everyone when I do these TV episodes is that we're going to be. going to rank this family on our dinner table scale. So would you want to sit down at the table with the Gallagher family? And one is absolutely not like toxic, harmful, unsafe. Three mixed bag, both healthy and unhealthy patterns. And five is, I would definitely pull up a chair and sit down

with them. Wow. I mean, like, as a therapist, I'm like, yeah, I want to sit there. But I think no funny, every therapist does this that I have on the show. Like, as a person I would do this and as a therapist, I would do this. Yeah, I'm hoping that if I were to sit there, I'd probably say three. And like, I would love to sit next to Fiona. I think even the kid under Fiona, there's a lot of hope and I think awareness of a future that she can have and patterns that she can explore. So I think there'd be a lot of good. potentially. Again, I haven't watched it, but I don't, I mean, they're all children. And so.

Yep. Yep. I would love to sit at the table with just the kids. Like Fiona and if Brink and Monica were there, I don't think I want to come. Yeah. Everyone who's a kid. Yeah. It would be so hard for me to bite my tongue at the table with the two of them, but I would like to sit with Fiona and everyone else. So I agree with your assessment there. Definitely. No, this was so fun. I would do this any day. Awesome. I love to hear that. And if you could just tell everyone where to find you. Yes. You can find me on Instagram at Emma period in period therapy. And then I'm on TikTok at Emma Mahoney. And yeah, I love health culture and breakdowns like this, but I post a lot of mental health therapy stuff and a little bit of comedic relief. Thank you so much. And we will definitely link all of your stuff. in the show notes as well. Wonderful. You're so lovely to meet you. Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for listening

to this episode. I hope that you loved it. And if you did, please like, subscribe, comment, leave us a review, do whatever you can to help us grow the show. I am here just to check in and remind you that I am on maternity leave right now. So that means that we only have one episode a week on Tuesdays, but we will be back to our regularly scheduled programming of a new episode every Tuesday and Thursday in May when I return from maternity leave. Until then, if you would like to have more access to me, my resources, writing, I'm still hosting monthly Q&As and interacting on the discussion board for the Family Cycle Breakers Club at Calling Home.

So I would love to see you there. You can join at Callinghome.com. Otherwise, I will see you for another episode next week on Tuesday. Bye. The Calling Home Podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist patient or other treatment relationship between you and Colin Colm or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Colley Holmes' terms of

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