CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Therapists React to Succession and What the Show Gets Right About Narcissistic Parents

Episode Date: March 24, 2026

Whitney is joined by therapist Stephanie Lindeman to break down the Roy family from the HBO Max show Succession. Succession is one of the most psychologically precise portrayals of a narcissistic patriarch on television. Together Whitney and Stephanie explore what happens to adult children who spend their lives trying to win approval from a parent who is constantly playing a game that no one else can ever win.Stephanie’s website:https://www.alifeworthsharing.com/aboutStephanie’s IG:@steph_the_attachment_therapistWhitney Goodman is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and the founder of Calling Home, a membership community that helps people navigate complex family dynamics and break harmful cycles.Have a question for Whitney? Send a voice memo or email to [e-mail] the Family Cyclebreakers Club⁠⁠Follow Whitney on Instagram | sitwithwhitFollow Whitney on YouTube | @whitneygoodmanlmft⁠⁠Order Whitney’s book, Toxic PositivityThis podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Calling Home podcast. I am your host, Whitney Goodman. And today we are doing another TV episode where I dive in to a dysfunctional family dynamic in a TV show with a special guest. Today I'm joined by Stephanie Lindemann. Some of you may know her as one of our group facilitators at Calling Home. Stephanie runs the family estrangement group, and she also subs for me sometimes. She's been subbing for me while I've been out on maternity leave. So many of our members inside the Family Cycle Breakers Club know and love. Stephanie. She is a dual licensed therapist in Florida specializing in attachment therapy, emotion regulation, and complex relational trauma. She works with individuals, couples, and families to promote healing and meaningful connection. And Stephanie has extensive experience leading DBT skills groups, teaching practical tools for emotional regulation, and facilitating family education and support groups. Her approach is rooted in emotional safety, non-judgment, and supporting clients in reconnecting with themselves and others. So she is the perfect guest today to break down one of the most psychologically complex families

on television, the Roy's from Succession. Succession isn't just a show about wealth and power. It's also a show about trauma, emotional deprivation, manipulation, and what happens when a parent treats their children like competitors or sources for their ego and manipulation instead of kids. Today we're diving into the Roy family system, the role each of the children plays, the survival strategies they developed, and how Logan Roy's emotional abuse and unpredictability shaped every relationship in this family. This episode is really about emotional legacies of a parent whose love is always conditional, whose approval is always out of reach,

and whose presence is both intoxicating and terrifying. And we're going to explore what that does to adult children who are still trying to win a game that they cannot possibly win. So I know that I sent you the episode in advance. Have you seen the show before? Okay, no. It's a good family one. Did you get a chance to watch that episode? I don't know if you have access to HBO. Yeah. So I watched the first episode and it was cracking me up because I was like, you know, everyone has spoken about this show and it's like, how have I not watched it? And I'm like, Yes, because this is just like watching my clients get traumatized during my half hours. So I was like, yeah, that's why.

That's not how you like to spend your time? Like, come on. As it turns out. No, I'm more of like a Ted Lazo girly. Every time I do one of these episodes and I like bring a show to someone, they're like, why are you watching this during your downtime? Like maybe I need to evaluate that as well. But I agree. This is a very good, especially I think if you work with adults who have complicated

relationships with their parents. Yes. It's a very good show. Oh, for sure. And like, I feel like I'm jumping the gun here, but it was just like immediately a fantastic display of what I think could be called a narcissistic family or at least a family that would create adaptations that lend to more narcissistic-like traits. And I think that's, think it's cool, you know, cool to see it. Yeah. In that little, you know, like fishbowl of like, ah, this is how you become, you know, you adapt, right? To love and see. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And even though this family is like super wealthy and a very dramatized portrayal of this, I think that if you work in

any family business with like a patriarch that is this way, things could feel like this. Even if you were running like a small plumbing company or something else that wasn't so dramatic and large at scale. Yes, yes, because of the way the family is structured and the complete sort of, this family takes it to the extreme where there's like an annihilation of the caregiving system. There really isn't. Like annihilation, erasure, it doesn't exist. Other families will go in and out of like we are in you know this is dad versus this is boss the it's too um fluid too vague um in like families that are a little more uh like typical perhaps but um who also run this is yeah yeah so speaking of the structure i want to kind of break down the roy family tree in succession for anyone who

either hasn't seen the show or it hasn't seen it in a while because it's been a a little bit since this show has been on the air. But we're going to be talking a lot today, mainly about the father, Logan Roy, who is the patriarch of this family. And he's had three different partners, has had, he's married to the current one, Marcia, now. And then he had a previous wife that he had one child with his son, Connor, that is the oldest. But we don't really know anything about her. and then he also had another wife named Caroline, and he had three children with Caroline. And that is Kendall, Roman, and Chivvonne, or Shiv. So we're going to be talking a lot about those three adult children that came from his second marriage.

And it's interesting because I think, I don't know if you notice this, but Connor is like the oldest child of these four, but he very much is like an only child and kind of off to the side a little bit in a lot of ways. But they are all siblings, the three of them, full siblings. And then Connor is a half sibling. And then there's a couple of other kind of key players here that Chabon is married. She's the only one of the siblings that, I don't think she's married at the start of the show, maybe engaged. But to a guy named Tom who also works for the family. business and we will see how some of those relationships kind of play out. Do you have any questions

about the family tree before we get started? No. No. Okay. Yeah. Perfect. And he doesn't have any children with Marcia, his current partner. Right. Who I thought he was an assistant, by the way. And I was watching the first episode. I thought Marcia was the assistant. The way. Yeah. Yeah. And then when I was like, wife, uh, of the first. I was. I was. Yeah. And then when I was like, But of course he would treat his wife. Yes. Yeah. And Marcia starts to play like more and more of a role as things kind of move forward in the show.

But that is really interesting that that was your first thought when you saw her like from just seeing that beginning of season one. And most of the scenes that we're going to be talking about today, just if you haven't seen the show, are from season one, like the first episode one and episode four. So there's not any major spoilers here for anyone that hasn't seen the show yet. I want to talk a little bit and do a little bit of analysis of each of these characters before we get into the scenes. What is your first impression of Logan of the father? Oh, God. Yeah. First off, like coming from a family therapy lens, you look at him and you're like, ah, you have never claimed the identity of caregiver.

He has never really embraced fatherhood. he embraces more of this like dictator CEO type of identity. And so it's honestly super eerie to watch the kids call him dad because I'm like, ooh, I feel you trying to activate his caregiving system. Like, treat me with some warmth. Like treat me differently than you would any other employee. And they don't. They can't reach that father like warmth with him, which is gross.

I'm like, oh, like, I hate watching that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with you. I think he very much, if his children were not involved in, like, his work orbit, he would have no relationship with them.

Like, that is the only way that they relate and he's able to, like, achieve full dominance over them. And I honestly, we don't know too much about their childhood, but I imagine he's one of those dads that was. like, I've heard someone say this before, like, oh, dads get to know their children, you know, when they're adults. Like, it really feels like that to me that once they became adults and were out of college and they could work, that's when he was like, all right, now I will start to pay attention to you. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Which is the underresponsive caregiving block that we see in like a typical family where the father is under functioning, disengaged or the mother, right? like it just sort of a deactivated caregiver. But it makes sense that for someone like Logan, he doesn't start to connect or like, you know, bring his children closer until they're adults because that's when they can reflect the full embodiment of his ego extended outside of himself, right? Like he's not going to identify with a child who's struggling and, you know, powerless. Like a man like Logan, he's going to wait until they have some sense.

semblance of power and control over their environment for him to then be like, totally. Yeah. That's an extension of me. Yeah. And until they're useful to him. Like I feel like at that point, you know, when they're kids, he's like, what good can I do with you, you know, other than it being like social cachet to some degree to be like,

yeah, I have children. You know, but that's about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The intro actually, like the credits that come on the screen, they keep flashing to this image of like a younger Logan and maybe a Connor or a, um, what's the Kendall? And the father, they're taking a picture with the son and they're all dressed up and the father standing behind,

hand on the shoulder. And then the moment the picture's over, hand goes off. Like the child was, interesting. I haven't noticed that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because it's, it's such a powerful and fast display of how the child is a pawn, a prop right to this dad. Yeah. That's fascinating. A couple. I'm going to go back and watch that. Yeah. So let's talk about Kendall because to me, Kendall is like the saddest character of the show. I feel pain when I watch him. I don't know if that's your experience as well.

Oh, big time. Big time. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's the creators of the show do a good job because like when they introduce Kendall, you're like, oh, so dislikable. You know, like the opening scene. Is him like being like clueless to how he's impacting the driver.

Like he's being like obnoxious. But actually something that I noticed all throughout that episode is the ways in which I found him to be dislikable. He was actually ego regulating. Like he like the I am good. I am strong. I am a like good leader. He was constantly regulating his ego, which makes so much sense given that Logan is constantly attacking it.

right rather than building him up like a real father would and help create that like strong sense of self he was constantly destabilizing um Kendall's belief in himself which is how shame gets passed down like I have this thing called a shame monster within the attachment academy and we look at how shame operates in our lives and when your parent is the one shaming you you internalize that and then shame yourself and it becomes very hard to stabilize is your sense of self. Absolutely. And I think in a lot of ways, Logan sees Kendall as someone that could potentially compete with him. And so he needs him to be sick and inept and like to constantly pull the rug out from under him because he cannot tolerate being overshadowed by his own

child. Like he does not want to actually groom the next generation. And that's basically the premise of the whole show, right? Is like there is no succession. It's just, is Logan puppeteering everyone around him to not be able to give up the power. Yeah. And you can also feel Logan have this, like, disdain and disgust for Kendall's caregiving bids because it comes across as kind of like anxious, you know, kind of like, dad, you know, like the, can you see me now? Will you see me now?

Like, am I good enough for you now? And every time that kind of gets like arched like Logan just shoots it down with like something really cold and dismissive. And it's yeah, I think he almost enjoyed. Yeah, he builds him up and pulls the rug out from under him, which I think we'll jump into like that first scene because it is about Kendall. But it's exactly what we're talking about. You know, in season one episode one, we meet Logan, right, who. were talking about. And they're having this surprise party for him. If you remember that beginning scene, which is probably when you thought Marcia was the assistant because she's doing a lot of

the managing in that moment. But of course, Logan knows about the surprise party. He's telling everybody what to do. You know, he's managing the whole situation. And we see that around this time, Kendall is being prepped to take over the business, right, which is this. massive corporation. And Logan comes into the office right before the party and Kendall gets like very jumpy, right? Like you can tell there's a lot of tension between him and his dad. And I think he's still worried that his dad's going to stop him from stepping up and taking over. And this worry is correct and founded in something. Now, this is what's fascinating to me. And I want to know what you thought about this is that Kendall comes to his.

dad's party instead of being like at their new launch right and I think you can tell immediately that his dad is so disappointed in him that he prioritized family over the company and and even that he prioritized him it's almost like this was this was a test and Kendall failed yes what's your perception of like why a father might see this act that way Yeah, my impression of that is that it's considered weak in Logan's eyes for Kendall to choose family, like the father-son bond over the CEO, future CEO bond. Like that's what he was supposed to choose in Logan's eyes. And it made him weak that, yeah, he chose something soft like family.

Yeah. I feel like Logan was like, oh, this is. proof that you can't handle it because you're supposed to always prioritize work over everything. I mean, that's what he did clearly. Right. He didn't prioritize his family ever. And Kendall is trying to relate to his dad as a dad in that moment, not just as a boss. Yeah.

And he ultimately gets punished. On both fronts, on the father-son front and on the CEO front. It was a loss across the board for him. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that kids can work for their parents? Like if they can't kind of have this holding of multiple identities, it seems so difficult to me. Yeah. I actually, I have a few cases like that, whether it be husband, wife or family business type of stuff. And it's sort of like one bond is going to take over. Like, if you don't learn how to communicate clearly and, like, just be very, like, I need you as a dad right now or I need you as a boss right now. Like, if you don't know how to do that,

one of the bonds is eventually going to get annihilated. I don't see them coexisting without the right support and safety structures in place. Yeah, that's so true. I almost feel like in my experience, I've seen it work better in some cases where there is. is no, like, a parent-child bond, and it's only, like, employee boss because the child isn't going, looking for that. But at the same time, I think a lot of adults have this deep hope that, like, if they start working with their parent and meeting them on something that they like and that they are always doing, that they're going to be able to create that parent-child bond. Yes, exactly. Which I think just goes to show how.

how much children and adult children will go, how far they will go and how much they are willing to almost give up in an effort to be in connection with their parents, which is why no contact is usually their like absolute final straw because they're about to lose themselves, right? Like, yeah, I just think it's important to like highlight the desire to have that connection to your parent, even if it's in this more toxic. Yeah. I've been reading a lot about like of the literature on fantasy bonds for my book. And to me, Kendall is, all these children are in such a fantasy bond with their parent that they rarely, they rarely discuss any of Logan's faults.

Like they kind of ignore it, brush it under the rug, make excuses for it, like to keep him in this position of being like this all powerful, all knowing father who's. so successful. And I think that that is so necessary for them because that's kind of what the world is doing. Like if they were to acknowledge what their dad is, they would be alone on an island because of how much power he has. Like I'm wondering if you have experience, like I know Lindsay Gibson talks about this in her book too of people who have parents who are so powerful outside of the family system and how difficult it can be to acknowledge, like, how their parent actually is. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Especially because I don't know if it's like I'm in Florida or what, but like I work with a good number of folks who have survived cults. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's, it goes into that

overpowering environment, which comes from a relational trauma model, where we talk about the environment is more threatening, more powerful than you, and thus can control you and, like, you know, very seriously harm you if you try to go against it, which is how that self-erasure tends to happen and you get into these adaptive strategies like, I'm going to have a fantasy bond, or I'm going to really work to earn the love. And I actually was curious about how you were tracking Connor because it seemed from the first episode he had this like toxic positivity adaptation a little bit and as the author of toxic positivity I was curious about how you saw him sort of adapt to these like gross dynamics and the way he isolates himself in this like farm and yeah Connor is so fascinating

because he wants to really stay out of the drama right he's not interested in obtaining any of the power, but he does like the benefits of it. So he lives off of the money and, you know, that we see a lot of scenes throughout the show where he's asking Logan for cash to, like, inject in other things. But he has all these pursuits that are in direct opposition a lot of the time to what his father is doing. Like, he seems to care about the environment and his health and he doesn't want to be

involved in the business that I see Connor as like just trying to. to keep the peace and stay below all of the chaos, but still also keep his foot in there, you know, so that he doesn't totally lose all the benefits. It's actually, I think, a good coping strategy to some degree with a parent like this, because I don't know how you would cut someone like a parent like Logan Roy off, to be honest. I don't know how you would go no contact fully. with a parent like that without truly blowing up your life and needing to like move to another

country. I mean, this man's reach is so large that I see a lot of what he's doing as just like safety seeking and kind of the only option other than being directly involved with him. Yeah. I don't know. Like what do you think about an adult cutting off a parent like this, what that would look like? You know, it makes me, I haven't followed this. closely, but now I'm feeling really curious about it of like Elon Musk's children. Yeah. Because if you look at a character like Logan, he would not hesitate to punish or annihilate his own child if he felt like that child

was a threat to, like, embarrassing him, humiliating him, a threat to his ego, looks weak, right? Yeah, like, he would annihilate his own kid for that. So, like, extracting yourself would be very serious. You would need to, oh, God, you need to be very careful to not, I suppose, like, humiliate this person, but by rejecting him, that might be enough. There's kind of no winning. And, I mean, I think that's why substance abuse, like, right in the opening scene, we

learned that what's a first kid's name? Kendall? Oh, Kendall. Kendall, yeah. Kendall, yeah, has a history of substance abuse. Right, right. And it did not like, it made perfect sense to me that the substance of choice was cocaine, which is like ego regulating.

Like I am, you know, I got this. I can, I can crush this. I'm like, of course, you poor thing. Like he has such a shame-based identity that, of course, the substance he ended up abusing was one that is ego-regulating because of that shame-based identity. And that's the other thing. Like you can escape maybe Logan, but you can't escape the shame that he has put inside of you. That falls you. Yes. And the reach of a person like that, that even if you cut them out of your life, I'm thinking, you know, the unique angle of this is a man who owns media companies,

right, does the news. Like the ability for this person to sort of like blackball you across all sectors, you know, and to ruin your life and to even put stories out there. And, you know, about you or whatever it is. I think is so threatening that like for a kid to walk away from a parent with that much power is terrifying. Yeah. It really is. Yeah. I think it would be easier if you weren't born into it. Like I'm actually thinking of Megan Markle right now. You know, like she nearly lost her life, you know, via suicide, right? In her attempt to navigate exiting that family, you know, but for someone born into it, that, like, level of helplessness of, like, I am beneath this person. I do not have my own self-agency or capacity to kind of follow what I

need, right? Like, that's really beat into you. Yeah. Yeah. And even with the, those are great examples that you brought up because I think even with Megan Markle, with, I know Elon Musk has of one child that has been very publicly sort of out about their lack of relationship and how difficult that relationship has been. And then we're talking about Logan Roy's kids. Like, we so love success and prestige, like in the form of the royal family and Elon Musk and all this, that people are not going to abandon that. Like, they're going to hold those people on pedestals and be like, oh, I mean, look at how people treat Megan Markle. Like, she, I saw something the other day that she was like, the most hated celebrity above P. Diddy.

And I'm like, that's wild. Yeah, that these people are institutions and they also represent, you know, something that a lot of people want, right? Well, the power and all of that that. That I think the kids get cast aside or whoever decides to leave. It's like, well, you must be the problem. Because look at how much success this person has had. It's very scary. It's very scary and it's very dehumanizing, right? Which is how they kind of mobilize the rationality behind like, oh, it's okay to do this because like this super powerful person like Logan, like obviously is amazing and this is just a rotten apple or, you know, like just really brush it aside in this super dehumanizing kind of a way.

100%. I think dehumanizing is such a perfect word for what we see Logan. doing, especially to his son Kendall, like in this scene that we're talking about, you know, Kendall is about to take over the company, right? He's going to be named as Logan's successor in the first episode of this show. And then we see that, you know, this has been on the cover of magazines. It's been announced. Like, it's very, very much official. And then Logan humiliates him and immediately takes his power back and is like, it's no big deal. Like, I'm just going to work for a few more years. And, you know, I think Kendall says something along the lines of, like, I trusted my father.

And then he, Logan's like, do you want to hit me? And starts, like, kind of antagonizing him. And he's like, are you going to cry? Are you going to cry? And just getting in his face, which was extremely emotionally. abusive, right? And antagonistic, you can see how to me in that moment, it was like, he wants Luke, he wants Kendall, sorry, to act crazy. Yes. Like, and to do something that he can point in him, be like, see, that's why I didn't give this to you. And then we see Kendall go into

the bathroom, right? And he starts breaking things and screaming into his jacket and ripping up magazines. And he's reacting, I think, in the way he probably has since he was a little child everywhere. Every time his dad rejected. him. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you can see how that is so destructive to Logan's relationship with self. And you know that the, or not Logan, excuse me, Kendall's relationship to self. And you know that this dynamic existed when like Kendall was three, you know, of like, you know, you better not cry or I'll give you something to cry about that mentality. And so many of my male clients, whether they are, I'm working with them as individuals or in a marriage setting or in a

family setting, they all have memories with their dad, where the dad was either underresponsive to their pain or was directly punishing of it. Yeah. Right? And so then you adapt by learning to constrict, kind of hollow yourself out. But then that's not, you're like dehumanizing yourself to survive that moment. And then you go have a very human moment in the bathroom of the explosion, right? And then you hate yourself for exploding like that.

Now you're chastising yourself. And it's a terrible loop. And we see Logan here being like he is the person who gave the hope of like you're going to get this job. We have to really think about like, I feel like people are so eager to be like, oh, well, Kendall's being a spoiled brat. That's not his business. He didn't build it. But you have to think about a parent who has what it takes to tell someone that they're going

to take over a company like this. This has been happening for a very long time, right? Over the course of potentially a year or more, he's had magazine shoots and meetings and all this stuff. And then in a moment, you're just like, I'm taking it from you. At the last minute. And then after that, you punish the reaction that you systematically created and reject your child and you're not just a boss in that moment like you're a parent it's wild it is wild and it's

interesting when folks like Logan do that because he's in part sees Kendall as an extension of his own ego but then at the same time as willing to humiliate him and it's it just kind of goes to show how like bonds can be almost like a form of entertainment for people that cruel, you know? Wow. Yeah. I think Kendall is absolutely, he sees him as an extension of himself and also, like we said earlier, his biggest threat. And he know, like, I think for Logan, there's something of like, if I gave this to Kendall and he was doing really well and he wasn't using drugs and he was taking care of himself, he might beat me at this. He might do a better job.

Right. You know, like what if people give him praise or the company does better under his control? I think Logan would die from that. Oh, he couldn't handle it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He couldn't have the capacity to kind of hold and like that there is someone potentially equally or better than him, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Not every parent wants their child to do better than they did.

Right. Right. Which is like antithetical to the caregiving drive. You know, caregiving intent, you know, impact flops quite often for caregivers. But typically, you know, reliably, the intent is to try to set your children up for success. But yeah, Logan doesn't have that. Yeah. So I want to talk about the baseball scene. Oh, yes.

It's so bad. It's one of the most painful scenes on television. Yeah. For those listening who haven't seen it or like need a refresher, the Roy family is like playing baseball on a field. And they have this kid, young kid, I don't know, he's probably what, eight, nine years old, something like that. He's a young kid.

Comes out to play baseball with the family. And they make it fairly obvious that this family does not have the wealth of the the Roy's, right? And he's just out there with his parent. And Roman tells the kid that he will give him a million dollars if he hits a home run and he pulls out his checkbook and he's writing a check and everyone's watching. And the family's kind of standing around. Shiv's the only one, the daughter that says, like, don't be an asshole. Right. And then the kid, you know, swings at bat. He hits the ball pretty well. But Tom, the brother-in-law, tell him. He. He's the brother-in-law, bags him out right before he gets home run. And we see Romans start terrorizing this kid. He's ripping

up the check in his face and he gives him like a ripped up piece of the check. And what Logan does in this moment is so fascinating because we never see him act like this with his own children, right? He walks up to the kid and says like, son, magnificent effort and like taps him on the shoulder. And he's kind of being kind while his children are acting like assholes. What did you make of Logan's behavior in this scene? Oh, um, gross. Terrible one. Yeah. All sorts of like, oh, no. Oh, man. So also leading up to the game, they kind of, um, get the viewers excited like, what is the game? They're like, oh, we're going to go play the game. You're like, what's the game? And, like, oh, we're going to go play the game. You're like, what's the game? And so they're playing baseball, but to me, that was not the game.

The game was finding some sort of sacrificial lamb to offer to Logan as a way, yeah, like an act of cruelty. Like, see, look, Dad, I can be cruel even to a young boy. And then that will be a thrill for Logan. And I think Logan in that first episode seemed to treat Roman with less antagonism. And I feel like that's because Roman is a little bit. less anxious for caregiving. He's a little bit more like, you know, chill, laid back, whatever, and not nearly as successful, right? So he can't really threaten Logan in that way. And I think just sort of that act of cruelty pleased Logan. And so he was able to go and be like, yeah,

I'm going to smooth this over with a handshake. And then my lawyer is going to make you sign an NDA. So nobody knows how cruel we were to you. And they were a minority family too. There's so many power dynamics, right, at play that they completely took advantage of, which was so gross. It was so gross. And to make that little kid that you could tell that kid understood the weight of his family's financial issues, right? Like there was something about his face that I was like, this kid knows on some level that if he gets this check, it will help his family so much. Like, there was that pressure on him. And I also think it's so interesting that the outsider of the family, the in-law that is

marrying in was the one that tagged him out almost as a way to be like, see, I can be like you guys. Oh, yeah. Like except me, you know, he had learned the rules of the family. Exactly. Which highlights earned love through cruelty and love. and love, right? Like earned acceptance, earned, you know, false safety of like, oh, if I harm this, if I'm willing to harm this person, will you accept me? Right? Which goes to show how powerful the dynamics

are of that family. It's like a vacuum. Totally. Like, I'm just thinking like, okay, I'm, I'm, I'm an outsider in this family. I'm marrying it. I feel like in that moment, I'm going to be like, I'm not playing this game. I'm certainly not tagging the kid out. And then after I'm probably like going to the ATM. trying to like give them any money I can to make up for like even being present for this interaction. It's insane. Yes. Yes.

Well, and your desire, like your immediate mobilizing of like wanting to initiate repair with this poor child like goes to show like you got that caregiving, you know. Well, and to try to distance yourself. I feel like there's two reactions there of like Tom was like, I'm going to use this as a moment to show that I am close with this family. I am like them. They can accept me and feel safe around me. And other people I think might have the urge of like, I want to distance myself from this as much as possible because this is not me. I don't want to be associated with people like this. Right. And if I'm recalling that scene correctly, Shiv, it looks like almost purposely trips to

buy time. And you know, especially when she said to Roman, like, don't be an asshole. They've done this before. She's seen this a million times, right? And I think it's interesting that Shiv is the one who bought time for the kid, but then her partner is the one who chose to, you know, lay the final blow of destroying this family. Yeah. Shiv is so complicated. Like, I feel like she wants out in some way.

She tries to get out a little bit. Like, she has a different career and, you know, gets involved in politics. But ultimately, her marriage to Tom and putting him into the family business, I think, solidifies her. She's not ever going to get out. Even if she's not directly participating all the time, he's like her surrogate of performance still in the family. And it's a little sad. So, like, you know, usefulness is highly relevant as an adaptation in a family like this. and watching Shiv in the first episode coach her fiancé of like,

okay, well, this is how you need to approach him. She's using that same adaptation of usefulness, right, in her marriage now. And it's that adaptation is exactly what's going to entrap her into that very environment. She's trying to distance herself from, which is that like really, really sad evidence of attachment, right? Like how you learned to love and be loved from a family like that will spill into your next primary romantic relationship. Totally. And Shiv knows, I think, on some level that she needs Tom to be accepted by her dad. This is going to work, right?

Like, she's not going to be with somebody that doesn't get Logan's approval. And I think, I don't know that Logan ever fully approves of Tom. I think he sees that he can use Tom to his advantage. Tom is very easily manipulated and utilized in a lot of ways because Tom, I think Tom comes from a very, what we would say is a very normal family and likely upper middle class, maybe even upper class in some areas, but certainly not at the level of the Roy's. And he seems to think, like, if I get that level of wealth, my life will be so much better. And he's getting that through Shiv as well.

but I don't think that Logan, sorry, actually respects Tom in any. Oh, gosh, no. No, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, like Logan, Tom approaches it with so much, like, desire for connection and to be seen, which disgusts Logan and folks like Logan. So, like, when he's, like, carrying that present around, trying to give it to Logan, right?

Like, that just disgusts somebody like Logan. And that's the watch that they give to the kid. Oh, did they give the, I didn't track that. Yes. Yeah. They give the lawyer, you know, the security guy at the end that does the NDA. He gives them the watch. And I think I remember at the end of that episode, when they're sort of panning out on the apartment building where that family lives, they show that watch.

And I'm sure that was like, you know, a hundred, multi, hundred. $100,000 watch and the family can sell it and get some money from it. But it was Tom's birthday gift to the father. Yes, yes. But I think this also really highlights the gaping lack of know-how for repair in families. And we hear this a lot with folks who have been estranged from their families or are low contact and there are a lot of pain in their family dynamic where there was misattunement. The child was hurt.

the parent tries to repair through a gift. And it's like, well, you should be grateful. I got you a gift. You know, like, yeah. What miss it? I talk about that so much. It's so crazy how much I hear that and how universal that is among income brackets. Like that that's not just like a wealthy people thing. It's like it happens all the time. And it could be, you know, something that was like a $3 gift. And if gratitude isn't, demonstrate it's like, well, you should have known that that's what I was doing to repair and to make this better. And I feel like I'm constantly saying like gifts are not repair. Gips are not. They are not. They're not. They're a nice gesture, but they cannot be separated from the context of the relationship. And you're right. All these people in this family and the Roy's, they have no idea how to repair anything outside of money. It's literally the only tool that they are comfortable using. Right. At their disposal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when you look at gift giving, it's the person giving the gift is often doing that as a way to regulate their own guilt.

Like, it's not about trying to seek attunement. It's like, I feel guilty, show gratitude so I can feel better. And now I know I'm a good parent again. So again, it's all about like that identity regulation, which is why it's so important for caregivers and parents to have other parents, other adults, their own parent, right, help stabilize that like, I am a good parent, right, rather than trying to seek it and demand it from your child and then punish them, you know, when they don't give it because it's not their job to affirm your personal identity. Exactly. So people who need to hear that a lot of times. There's one more scene that I wanted to talk about, and that is in the scene in episode four where Logan goes back to the office after he has had, I believe it was a stroke and he was hospitalized for some time.

And he doesn't warn anyone that he's coming back. He goes into the office. He's still very weak, not doing well, can barely walk. And there is a speech that's happening at like this big gala that night. And I think Roman, sorry, Kendall is supposed to give the speech at that big event. He's planned it. He's written it, rehearsed it, whatever. And at the last minute, Logan's like, no, I'm giving a speech.

And cuts his son out without even telling him. And we see Marsha walking him up to the stage and the man can seriously barely walk. Like she is covering everything for him. And this speech is wild because it's full of so much innuendo. So Logan says, someone took advantage of me being in the hospital. And of course, he's referring to his son, Kendall, who was going to take over if Logan were to die. But he lived. and instead he says to propose to my daughter because Tom had proposed.

And then he makes this whole speech about how it's so important that children are supported and encouraged. Everything I've done, I have done for my children. And I am proud of the way they have pulled together during my issue. And in particular, my son Kendall. And this is his speech to a room of like, I don't know, 1,500 people. So what do you think? think about a father doing this, knowing all we know, like, on a stage like this.

Oh, well, I mean, it's performative fatherhood, right? Like, which is so gross. And this is also something that keeps people stuck in abusive dynamics because he just said probably with, like, since heartfelt sincerity and his frail little body that, like, he's so proud of his children. and in the whole room, you know, is probably like leaning into that. And they want to believe it. And so they're like, here is my dad saying that he's proud of me and I want to believe it. He's saying it to other people, not to me, but maybe it's true. But then that little voice of doubt is like, I know it's not true, right?

But that you get stalk, right? which is, you know, a critical element of a shame-based identity, too, is a state of stuckness. Yep. It's brutal. I think that Kendall ultimately perceives this message as a threat. And it is. It is, right? I think it's like, you're not going to get me down.

Look at me. I'm up here and see, I've got everyone in this room on my side, right? But they pan to the other siblings to Shiv and Connor and Roman. who are kind of exchanging looks in this moment that I think are very reflective of what you're saying, that they're almost like, they laugh a little bit of like, oh, this is crazy, he's saying this. But then they also look like, oh, that's a nice thing to say.

And it's this, just this little moment of like 10 seconds where you can tell they're experiencing all the emotions that you just described of like lack of trust, wanting it to be true, the fantasy, and also doubting it and feeling uncomfortable in some ways with their father doing this public display of affection, but behind the scenes being really awful. Yeah. Oh, I'm trying to remember the name. It's the type of insult where only the receiver knows they're being insulted.

Oh. Yeah. I don't remember. Oh, yeah. I'm sure it'll come to you. Or someone's like screaming at their car right now. They're listening to this because they know the word. You can leave it in the comments.

Yes. Yeah. There's another like interesting moment that I just want to mention after Logan gets down from the stage. Kendall gets up and says like nice one. Way to go, dad. So you can tell he's clocked like what his dad is doing in this moment. And Logan looks at him and says, I see you. Don't ever do that to me again.

retire me, shoot me like a dog in the street, I heard about your little speech where Kendall's speech was actually going to be really nice and not at all demeaning of his father, but he just assumed that it would be or like heard that it would be. And Kendall looks at his dad and goes, dad, why don't you just talk to me? Right? So this father decided, I'm not even going to ask my son. I'm not going to look at his speech or be curious about it. I'm going to assume ill intent. Get up on a stage basically threaten him, you know, undercover to all these people and then threaten him when I get off the stage rather than calling my son or meeting with him and being like, hey, could you share your speech with me?

Right. Yeah. It says it all. It does. It does because it also, assuming ill intent justifies Logan's desire to be cruel and overpower his son. Mm-hmm. Gets him what he wants. Yeah.

It can reinforce all of his actions as being just, right? He had to do all of that. Mm-hmm. Because look at his slimy, you know, conniving son that's after him. Right. Which is why it is so dangerous for parents to go down the path of constantly judging and labeling their children, lazy, spoiled, ungrateful. because when you do that,

you are now rationalizing and justifying sort of hollow caregiving or an under-functioning caregiving and it's destructive to the children because they internalize that. They are designed to internalize the way that you see them. Yeah.

Yeah. That behavior is so functional. It makes me think even of like abusive relationships between adults that like it's that very much I only do this because you made me, because you did that, you know. And so if my child wasn't so this, I wouldn't have to act this way. When in reality, the parent or the abuser wants to act that way because it gives them power

and whatever else they're looking for in that moment. And so it's a rationalization. It's a defense. Right. But not rooted in reality most of the time. Right. And for more like emotionally immature parents or partners, I see it as like a lack of capacity. And I'm like, okay, you don't know how to navigate these emotions that come with. I am trying my hardest as a caregiver as a partner to, you know, do something in this interaction like support my child to, you know, get A's in school or whatever the goal is. And the child for whatever reason is struggling the way that they conceptualize that like failure of like I wasn't able to successfully help my partner or my child is by then making them a villain. Yes.

And so in a more typical, you know, relationship, I'm like, okay, lack of capacity, lack of skill, let's target that versus like, you know, something like Logan where you're like, there's kind of, you're stuck. Oh my gosh. I know. Logan is like one of the most, he is a TV villain that makes me so deeply uncomfortable. The writers of that show did such a good job with capturing, I think, how those narcissistic traits that you mentioned at the beginning of the episode to bring this full circle, like,

really can come out in such insidious ways and be very desirable in certain areas of life, right? They're very adaptive and even successful. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Narcistic family. I like that term. There's a book, I'll put it in the comments that is awesome at laying this out too of how

like narcissism isn't just, it's not a one-off created in a vacuum. Like it is absolutely an adaptation to try to get love and safety from usually like withholding cold underfunctioning caregivers. Absolutely. And the ways that each person responds in the family to that is so fascinating, which I think this show does a great job. of capturing. Yeah.

So the last thing I want to ask you that I ask every guest that does these TV shows with me is to rank the Roy family on our dinner table scale. So this is just asking you if you would like to sit down with Roy family at dinner. One is absolutely not. Like they are toxic, harmful, unsafe. In the middle we have, it's a mixed bag. Like there would be boundaries, but you could do it. And five is you want to pull up a chair.

They are healthy, respectful, connected. Where do you think you fall? Oh, gosh. Well, immediate, I'm like, is there wine? Yeah, we're going to need some adaptive strategies that we're going to survive that environment. Yeah. You know, it's funny because there's this part of me that's like, this would be really entertaining to watch. but Logan is so dangerous that I don't think it's worth it with any sort of stipulation.

Because if he wanted to annihilate you, he would right then and there. Like, you could lose everything. Yeah. I would like to sit down with just the kids, I think, but not with Logan. Oh, yeah. I'm like, don't look at me. Like, I would be, I'm not scared of a lot of people, but he scares me. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Just his willingness to be cruel. Well, I want to thank you so much for joining me and doing this. This was such a wonderful conversation. I think people are going to get a lot out of this. Stephanie, if you could tell us just where everybody can find you and if you have anything exciting going on. Thank you. Sure. You can find me on Instagram, Steph the attachment therapist. Same with TikTok. If you are looking for more support with relationships and self growth and development like that, I have an online school. Just tar. marketing this with some courses that you have unlimited access to you and groups as well for support called the Attachment Academy. Amazing. Thank you so much and thank you again for being here. Yes, thank you, Whitney. This was cool. Thank you again, Stephanie, for joining me for this episode.

Watching a family like the Roy's can feel validating and unsettling at the same time. It gives us language to the experiences many of you have lived through, conditional love, emotional love, emotional manipulation, being pitted against siblings, and always trying to earn safety or approval from a parent who held all the power. And while it can be clarifying to see those dynamics on screen, the real work is figuring out what to do with that clarity in your own life. This is exactly what we focus on inside the Family Cycle Breakers Club at Calling Home. And Stephanie, our guest today, is one of our group facilitators. It's a space for adults who grew up in emotional immature, narcissistic, or otherwise dysfunctional family systems who are trying to break those patterns

without gaslighting themselves or minimizing what they went through. Inside the club, you get therapist-led support groups, private discussion boards, worksheets, scripts, and deeper conversations that help you make sense of your family system and decide what healthy looks like for you today. If this episode resonated with you or if you saw yourself in any of the Roy siblings, you may be realizing that you are trying to win a game that was never fair to begin with. You don't have to process that alone. You can learn more and join us at callinghome.co. We would love to have you. As always, thanks for listening. Don't forget to like, subscribe, leave us a comment, and I will see you again for another episode of Calling Home soon. The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing

therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship between you and Collingholm or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Holmes Terms of Service linked in the show notes below.