CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Therapists React to Television’s Most Dysfunctional Holiday Dinner

Episode Date: December 9, 2025

Kate Gray (@codependencykate) is back with Whitney to react to one of the most iconic dysfunctional holiday dinners ever depicted on television: “Fishes” from The Bear (S2E06). They break down the infamous episode scene by scene, analyzing how anxiety manifests differently in each of the three siblings, Mikey, Natalie, and Carmy, in reaction to an emotionally volatile mother, Donna. Even if you haven’t seen the episode, you will almost certainly find a way to relate to Whitney and Kate’s breakdown of holiday gatherings and the ways we so often find ourselves trapped in roles we thought we'd escaped. Whitney Goodman is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and the founder of Calling Home, a membership community that helps people navigate complex family dynamics and break harmful cycles. Have a question for Whitney? Send a voice memo or email to [e-mail] the Family Cyclebreakers Club⁠⁠ Follow Whitney on Instagram | sitwithwhit Follow Whitney on YouTube | @whitneygoodmanlmft ⁠⁠Order Whitney’s book, Toxic Positivity Learn more about ad choices. Visit podcast.choices.com/adchoices This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice. 02:44 Episode setup 09:58 The kitchen scene 18:38 Natalie and Donna 28:59 Dining room scene 41:28 Mikey throwing forks at Uncle Lee 46:47 Donna loses it at the dinner table Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Maybe it's just a phase you're going through. You'll get over it. I can't help you with that. The next appointment is in six months. You're not alone. Finding mental health support shouldn't leave you feeling more lost. At CAMH, we know how frustrating it can be trying to access care. We're working to build a future where the path to support is clear,

and every step forward feels like progress. Not another wrong turn. Visit camh.ca to help us forge a better path for mental health care. Hello everyone and welcome back to the Calling Home podcast. I have started a new series where I am using TV, movies, and pop culture moments to help explain dysfunctional family dynamics. And today we have another one of those episodes. If you are someone that really likes pop culture or TV, but you don't love a lot of the podcasts that analyze it because it just all feels like gossip and tearing people down and it's not particularly enjoyable to listen to, this is the show for you. And,

today I'm bringing back one of my most popular co-host, Kate Gray, who you may know as codependency Kate on TikTok, and she also has a YouTube channel. Kate and I did an episode breaking down in a Strange Parents YouTube video, and you all had so many wonderful things to say about that. And today she's back to help me discuss one of the most insane TV family holiday dinners of all times. So this is a perfect one right before we get to any of your holiday or end of the year plans. We will be describing scenes from the show and you don't need to watch the show to follow along. If you're curious about what this dinner is or if you have any guesses, let me know right now in the comments or review. And let's go ahead and welcome Kate

to the show. I'm not sure if you've seen this show, but I think that this episode that we're going to talk about is like one of the most iconic depictions of a dysfunctional holiday dinner that I've ever seen in my life. So we're going to be talking about the episode fishes, which is season two, episode six of the bear on Hulu. Have you ever seen this show? No, but everyone keeps telling me to watch it. Yeah. So I think now there's been like maybe four seasons of the show. So this is an old one. People have seen it. If you haven't seen it yet, there will be spoilt. But the good thing about this episode is that it happens in the past. So it's not rooted in like the present of the show. It's kind of this weird break where they're showing us a little bit

of why everyone is the way they are right now today. Okay. So I would describe this as really the holiday meal from hell. A lot of people have told me to break this down because it reminds them of their family dinners. And this is a flashback, like I said, to a Christmas Eve dinner. And any Italians listening, like, you've probably heard of this or doing like the feast of the seven fishes at the Rosado family home. And this is a couple of years before the main timeline of the show. So first I'm going to give you a little bit of background on the family tree of like who we're working with here. So you know some about the family. We have Donna, who is the matriarch of the family.

Donna is very emotionally unstable. She has loving moments, but she's very volatile, and you will see how, as we progress through this. And then Mikey, Brazzado, is her eldest child. Mikey has struggled with addiction. And at this point in the show, we know that he died by suicide a couple of years ago, but in this scene, he is alive and he is at the dinner and he's clearly struggling with addiction. So this is kind of the first time we're seeing him interact with the family because the rest of

the storyline, he is not there. They're just talking about him in the past. Then we also have Natalie, who is the middle child of the family. So she's Mikey's little sister. She is the only girl in the family and very much the caretaker, parentified role. She's, is married to Pete, who is like one of the random outsiders that we're going to see in this episode kind of come in and try to help stabilize the dysfunction. And then Carmen, or Carmi, they call him in the show, is the youngest child. And he is the one that has moved away. He's living in Copenhagen at this time. And he comes back home for this dinner. And he's home like once a year at this point and we'll hear a lot of commentary about how disconnected he is from the family. So we've got

the three siblings, right, and the mom. And then the other person we're going to talk a lot about is this guy, Uncle Lee, and he's not blood related to the family. I was trying to figure out why this guy is such a big character. But I guess he had an on and off again relationship with the mother and was a business partner of their deceased father. And so he's, still comes around a lot to these holiday dinners and he's a big presence in this episode but he's not related to them and he is a very contentious history with Mikey, the oldest son. Do you have any questions about the family tree so far? No.

Okay. Seems I was drawing a genogram of it. Perfect. Yeah. So those are like our big heavy hitters. And the episode opens up with the three siblings, standing outside of their mother's home and they're smoking cigarettes. And they look extremely tired, especially for their ages. I think they're all like in their early to mid-20s, probably.

But they're all talking about what's going on inside. And there's definitely some recognition that like it's getting chaotic in there. And they're even talking about like what level their mom is at, right? And they're saying, oh, mom's currently out of four. So this is like a secret language. think that they have between them about where their mom's at. And they're telling the sister, she needs to stop asking her mom if she's okay. And Natalie, the sister, says, do you know how much I would love to feel like I don't have to ask her? And so we're seeing this dynamic, you know, play out between the two brothers and the middle sister. And then the camera moves inside to the home. And I want you to imagine that, like, it's the most packed chaotic house you've ever seen on Christmas.

And there's relatives everywhere. It's super loud. And the mom is in the kitchen cooking. She's got a cigarette in her mouth. She's, like, multitasking frantically. And it's honestly very stressful to watch this scene. Like, it's overwhelming. And it feels chaotic and unstable.

And she's definitely been drinking. And so we find out that Karmie, the younger child, has just returned from Copenhagen. And Mikey, the older brother, is seeming a little manic to me. She's drinking as well. And then the sister is like holding everything together. She's running around, cleaning up the counters. And then there's people all around who are just kind of all having their own side conversations. So any like initial thoughts as I set this scene.

for you about what you might expect to happen in this home or any of the dynamics? Well, what is striking me is the way that everyone is dealing with the anxiety. So as we know, anxiety is what is the underbelly of dysfunction in a family, and it just manifests differently in everybody. And so you're saying the mom is doing a, a lot of things in the kitchen, it's clear she's been drinking. Okay. A lot of moms, you know, they handle things this way where they stay busy, they over function, obviously rooted in a lot of real things sometimes like lack of help and support,

but can cope with drinking. Sounds like Mikey, anxiety is drinking. Natalie, anxiety, caretaking. And then Karmie, you know, that what comes to mind for me there is, you know, him going to Copenhagen seeing the family once a year. That reminds me of the term generation or geographical cutoff. Yeah. Where it's cut off because you leave and you think that your anxiety will go away or you won't have anxiety or whatever. And maybe you don't where you live.

But you come back and you still. where you still are dealing with anxiety in this context. And so the anxiety doesn't go away. And so a lot of people I know struggle with, like they leave their homes for the holidays and they're gone all year. And then they come home and they regress to this anxiety, which is associated with this role that they've played their whole lives. And so that can be a very upsetting thing for kids,

adult children to come home and be like, oh, I thought I made all this progress. Here I am faced with this anxiety again and thus this role. And so that's what comes to mind as I'm hearing. And it's interesting because that's your reaction too. It's like I'm feeling overwhelmed just looking at it. Yes. I felt anxiety watching the episode.

And I feel like that's what a lot of people have said to me. Like those of you listening that have seen this are like I, people have told me they've had to pause this episode like a lot of times and come back to it later because they did such a good. job of capturing exactly what you're saying of like you can feel the anxiousness coming through the screen. Yeah. And it's interesting how different people deal. That's good. People are stopping to self-regulate. Yeah. Totally. That's a really good sign for them. Absolutely. So I want to talk about like the first scene that really stood out to me here that

happens pretty quickly into the episode. And it's in the kitchen, which is where a lot of the episode happens. And just to set the scene for you, like, it's a very enclosed kitchen. Like, we used to have, you know, it's making me think of, like, houses in the 90s and stuff where you would enter through one opening or a small door and that you're in the kitchen and you cannot escape. So when the people are in the kitchen, it's super cramped. And everyone keeps going in there, which was a really cool way of them filming it, I think, to show how suffocated, everyone feels in a way. But Donna, the mother, is cooking. And it is like the most insane cooking you've ever seen. Like there's sauce everywhere. There's sauce flying on the ceiling.

She's yelling. The oven timer keeps going off. She has all these timers. And it's very jarring. Like they're just constantly going off. And she shares that she's making this seven fishes dinner, which is wildly complicated. And she's drunk. She's overwhelmed. She's not prepared. And And Karmie, I forgot to mention, is training to be a chef at like a Michelin Star restaurant in Copenhagen. So cooking is literally what he does. He works at the most famous restaurant in the world right now. And he's offering to help, but she keeps rejecting him and making these digs at him like,

oh, you're too fancy for us or all you do is cook. And she's shutting down all his attempts. And their conversations in the kitchen are just. digs at each other. And then I love you, right? And everyone is rushing around Donna. You can tell she is the hurricane that they're all trying to control. And at the end of this scene, there's a moment where she's cooking all this stuff. And then she just goes, she's cooking gravy, like a sauce, meat sauce or something. And she goes, and Karmie's like, why are you making that? That doesn't go with the seven fishes. And she goes, oh, because nobody eats this shit, like about

the seven fishes. So she's doing all this work, but acknowledging that no one asked for it and no one wants it. And so she's making this other like side dish. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on like this parent, the matriarch of the family being at the center of the chaos in this moment and causing a lot of the chaos. Oh my gosh. Well, it's very common, I feel like. And, And it's so sad for the kids because kids sense these things. Like they have a sense for this, their whole lives. And it's they're in a double bind because they see it. They feel it.

They try to help. They sense that she has needs that are unmet. And it sounds like, you know, Karmie is trying to help. And she's saying no. So they're in this double bind where mom has unmet needs. kids sense this and so they kind of inherit this anxiety which is needs without them being met and as kids so they're in a position of where it's not their role to meet them but they're trying to meet them and she won't let them and she is so to me it sounds like she's so stuck in her own loop of it of why like and she can't pause and say, why am I actually doing this? Nobody wants this. And that's the, what comes to mind for me is like the addictive quality of this anxiety and drama that plays out in a family

where there's no love and safety, like real rest and love and safety, calm nervous systems, communication about needs and acceptance of support and vulnerability. There's none. of that. There's just anxiety, drama, and it's stimulating. And that's why a lot of people struggle with, you know, safe relationships when they come from families like this, because they're so, they think of love as this heightened sense of drama and anxiety and, you know, and, like, when you say the digs at each other and then the I love you, like, it's not all bad. bad, you know, like there's some sense of connection in this chaos, but it's stressful, very stressful.

Yeah. Yeah. I think later on in the episode, we're going to talk about some of these extraneous, like, members that are there and how it feels they're almost envious of the family dynamic, even though the people in it are so. They hate it. It's very uncomfortable for them. And so we'll get to more of that because I think it's such a great point. I am so fixated on like Donna taking on this overly complicated meal, even though she knows that no one wants it or asks for it. She really like wants to be a martyr,

I think. And we'll see more of that in this episode of like, no one understands how hard this is for me. Look at all that I do. I'm contributing. This is how I show love, how crazy this is. And so she can't accept help because that will totally break that. Right. And it's, I think we see so many women in that position, right? Of like, this is the only way I get my needs met is if I can like put myself in this. I am the most suffering person, even if it's of my own making sometimes. Oh my gosh. That is such a good point. And I think that is what you're saying and how it's passed down to, I'm sure we'll talk more about with Natalie. We see this in Natalie getting this caretaking role where in these dysfunctional families with drama, you're only seen for what you do or don't do and not who you are on the inside.

There's so much emotional neglect happening of the self and of other people. But like you're saying of this mom, there is identity in not getting her needs met, essentially, getting recognition, getting seen, but not really because there's there's, it's a guard. It's a, it's a lucery. It's not real connection. It's just this. Yeah. It's. Yeah. It's it's not real or deep or meaningful. It's. And I think you're so right that when. Women in particular, I don't know, I think men too, but this like stereotype of the mom in the kitchen suffering so much, we see that celebrated a lot also. Like she works so hard. She does so much for us. And so that that feeds it too, is that they're put on this pedestal in a way. I don't know how she does it. And again, that's, she's getting that dopamine from that validation, but not, not in a way that is healthy or real to who she is. Yeah. But yeah. It's such a red flag to me when people say that.

Like, my mom did everything. She never asked for anything. She never complained. I'm like, oh, she must have been miserable. It's not good. I think a lot of people are recognizing that now. A lot of women in early marriage, I think, are recognizing that. Thank goodness. But, yeah, that comes to me that the ideal of a woman being a martyr being so self-sacrificing, I think is changing so much in our culture. Thank goodness. It comes to mind. Whose book is that? I can never remember her name. Glennon Doyle. She talks about women being models. not martyrs. Yeah. Anyway, and we see just how, why that's important to go in that direction based in the scene.

You mentioned Natalie, the daughter, the middle child. I want to talk about her some because in this scene, we also see Natalie walking around and like picking up the wine bottles in the kitchen to see how much is left in them and pouring them down the sink when her mom isn't looking or pulling. pouring her wine out. And during this, she keeps asking her mom if she's okay and if she can help, like, over and over. And Donna keeps getting, her mother keeps getting very annoyed with her and, like, snapping her, like, stop asking me if, if I'm okay. And then she snaps in this moment and says, like, no one's listening to me. But she's not communicating at all. So she will

say like the timer you didn't tell me to set the timer but no one ever heard her say hey can you set the timer for this like she's not at all communicating her needs and then getting mad when people don't meet them and then on the other end we see that her daughter is actually truly trying to anticipate her needs to such a degree that it's becoming really debilitating for her does it for you when you see this do you look at the mom and the parent being like she is leading creating this entire situation what do you feel about natalie in this position i do i feel a lot of sadness for natalie because i think that she's stuck in a loop of like i have to make sure my mom is okay or she won't be okay she hasn't really realized like even if i don't ask her or i don't

step in like this is probably just going to keep happening like she's doing that thing where she just keeps repeating something and it doesn't change the outcome if anything it kind of intensifies her mom. But I feel this, that Natalie has this deep sense of responsibility of like, I need to protect her and keep her calm and make sure she doesn't blow up. And I think she feels resentful of her brothers for that. For not doing more. Yeah. For her mom. Yeah. That makes sense. You're so right. That's how parents unmet needs are them not communicating whatsoever can create these splits in the kids or competition or rivalry, whatever. And it's so interesting, the more we're talking about this, I wonder what other people take away from this episode or scene, whether it's like compassion for the mom.

Because I feel like a lot of estranged adult children especially, like who are in parenting roles now can understand some parts of it. Like, yeah, the mom is clearly over, like there are parts of the mom's experience that are so valid, like the feeling overstimulated. feeling like, you know, Natalie's asking what she can do to help and the mom needing help but not having the energy to manage explaining it well. And like, you know, it's like double the work to manage someone else doing something. It's easier to do it yourself sometimes. So there's so much validity to the mom's experience and the mom's stress and the way. And I, I feel like that can be really difficult for adult children with parents that grew up like they grew up like this because they're recognizing the same or similar feelings or experiences and that I think I mean and just

from what I'm seeing what I'm hearing is like the most stressful part of being a parent these days is like seeing some of your parent and you and having to adjust and change that so that you're breaking that cycle for your kids. Yeah, yeah. I feel like for me, I can relate to both of them. Like, I definitely not as much anymore, but I used to be a big, like, overchecker. Like, are you okay kind of person? I see that in her and I'm like, oh, my God, I remember being like that,

especially in my 20s. And it's exhausting. And you end up doing that like with partners and with other people. And it's a way to soothe your own anxiety, right? Like, I would just need to hear it over and over. Even when the person was acting totally fine, I needed to hear it, you know? Yeah. And I also grew up with, like, women in my family around me being very frantic.

Like, I feel like, especially on holidays and things like that, there was. And I've had to train that out of myself that, like, I can sit down and, like, relax and not be running around. I'll catch myself people in my house on Christmas all sitting and I'm like wiping the counters like I don't need to do that right now. And it's a hard thing to break that I feel like I can look at the mother and say I get why she's doing this because it is a way to manage discomfort and anxiety and the daughter and say both of you are so deeply uncomfortable right now. Yes. And it doesn't have to be like this. And I think like it's so inherent. that people and then people just do what they have seen, you know, like this. It's so automatic.

And it's, I don't know what it takes, but it just takes like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? You know, for me, I think with holidays, we, my husband and I have come a long way where we're like, we are making this a vacation. Like it's not going to be a trip. It's not going to be anything stressful or planning like we are going to enjoy this and uh that's been a total shift for me too because I grew up you know you wonder what this role is going to be like oh when I'm a mom when I'm married when I'm an adult what is this going to be like and you don't think that you can actually create that experience and it does take some deconstruction of like oh yeah it would be so nice for everyone to be here and

for food to be great and for the timing of everything to work out, for everyone to be pleasant and the music, everything's just right. And that's, um, you know, so there's again, I think great desires about this setup, you know, wanting to have everybody together. And the reality of it is that sometimes that just doesn't work or it's, it's too much. And so you have to adjust. And but yeah, I think that's the biggest thing is like creating your own holiday. experience of what you want it to be. Yeah. And you actually have full autonomy to do that. It's so hard. I know like we're hosting my husband's family for Hanukkah and he was like, make it easy for yourself this year. Like you're pregnant. Don't do a lot. And in my head I was like,

what would that even look like? Like what am I going to do? Like serve everybody pizza? Like I can't even get from like it is like it is wild how hard it is to break that down. Yes. And it takes, I think it takes support, like the fact that your husband's saying that is so great. Yeah. I, this is our first, I have a 16 month old and like this is our first Christmas where I'm feeling this pressure to make it something. I'm like, why? And I was actually talking to my husband about this morning. He was like, I just want it to be chill for us to just really enjoy each other, just a couple of presents. And I was like, oh, yeah, that sounds really good actually. I would have never. across my mind. Yeah. Because you, this, it's so, um, just historically, I don't know if it's like generational in my blood or my bones or something.

Or it's just in the images we've grown up with, but like this image of this chaotic, fun, you know, home alone house of frenzy. And that's, that's what the holidays are. There's just such like enmeshment with those ideas. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think that's what we see happening in this episode in a lot of ways is like for all of them, they're kind of thinking like, this is just the way it has to be and I have to deal with it.

Like that's the sense that I get of like, even for Donna, she's like, you do the seven fishes. I have to make the seven fishes, even if no one likes it or asked for it. And it's very hard. And the kids are almost there with this degree of acceptance of like, this is mom. She's going to get to a 10 at some point. but this is what we do on Christmas. And you almost can't fully opt out until somebody else says, like, hey, you know, we don't have to do this because everybody is operating under the same premise at this point. Totally.

I think that brings up in my mind, like, it takes more than one person, you know, because I think about Natalie, if she wanted to do something different, if she actually was like, okay, mom, like you got it then. I will do this and this. Like, what would that even be? And so I think it does take more than one person to actually create something new on a bigger level than just one person. But that is like the question, you know, when I'm putting myself in Natalie's shoes. Like for her, she probably doesn't see any other way to be either. Same, you know, Donna set this stage and Karmie, Mikey, they're all doing their own thing. And you almost, if you're the one noticing this, you you feel, it can feel crazy or like it, like very surreal because you're seeing this happen and you don't know what to do differently and no one else sees it either.

That's definitely how I feel about Natalie, like the, the sensitivity that she has. And, you know, the older brother is, Mikey in these scenes, I think it's very obvious that he's high, like especially as the night goes on and Karmie has been gone for like a year, living in another country. And so I imagine she feels like I am abandoned. But then in like this next, so a lot of like random scenes happen. It's mostly like chaos in the kitchen leading up to this point. But now the family is waiting to eat. Okay. The food is all on the table. And the mom, Donna, hasn't come to the table after all this cooking and all this stuff. And everyone is just like sitting around kind of like, Can we start? Where is she? And she's smoking and crying alone in like the pantry after she's

gotten done cooking. And Karmie goes in there and checks on her. And she says, nobody out there gives a shit about me about all the family sitting at the table. And he's comforting her and reassuring her over and over. Everybody wants you there. Everybody loves you, mom. He's like gentle parenting his mom, for lack of a better word. Yeah. And she says, I worked all day for them. And then you can tell he's very frustrated, but he is like playing therapist and being so kind, asking her questions.

And she says, I make things beautiful for them and no one makes things beautiful for me. And then she's like refusing to come to the table. And he's trying to get her to go. And then she snaps at him. And she's like, why are you treating me like a child? Are we going to have a problem? Like, she's getting more and more aggressive. Like, do we have a problem and saying his, you know, full name to him and stuff? And finally he just gives up and he's like, whatever and goes and sits down. And she's still in there sobbing and smoking a cigarette. And he goes back to the table and is like, she's going to come. Like, let's just wait for mom. And so the food's obviously sitting there getting cold.

And I think, you know, the one thing I want to hear from you about in this scene is, like, the role of, of Karmie being like an emotional regulator for his mom in this moment after he has dealt with her chaos the entire night already. Well, that's, it's so sad because he is, you know, for him, too, it's managing his own anxiety. that's that's the difficult part about it is that he's managing his own anxiety and needing his mom like it's a really the dynamic here is important like that this isn't you know uncle lee is that his name that like is consoling her it's her child yeah so it's not his role and here he is you know when you say gentle parenting his parent I hate that idea like I've advised people not to do that for the sake of themselves and, you know, replaying their trauma, getting back in this role, this parentified role of taking care of your parent when that's, that was never your

role. And the, the double bind of it is that they're not like a child where the child is vulnerable and open and receptive in most cases, like all cases unless it's like very unsafe. And so the mom is like having all these needs but is so invulnerable to getting them met and so he's just stuck and it to me it's just again just feeling very sad and for him just it's got to feel so confusing and overwhelming and defeating and in his mind I'm sure she's like this is why I'm never here this is why I never this is why I'm as far away as I am because I can't do this and he's right in a way Like, look what happens when I come home. It's unfixable.

Like, you're inconsolable. And, you know, this is, it's impossible. Yeah. Yeah. It's also, it's so hard this dynamic of, like, your parent is showing you sadness and upset. And then when you try to meet them with compassion, they, they return with anger. And, like, but blaming you almost for making them feel vulnerable. And it's like, you're the one that's crying and upset right now.

And you're mad if nobody can't you. Right. Right. It's a lose-lose, 100%. And that's the double bind. It's a lose-lose. That's where you get trapped by your parent in these lose-lose situations. You should have never, you know, so my question, you know, is where are the adults in the

situations that are, even though they're adults, even though they're in their early 20s, mid-20s, they're still her children. It's still not their role to do this whatsoever, ever, you know, unless it's healthy and normal, you know, in a normal healthy situation and they only want to. They don't have to, you know. But like, oh, it brings up for me just so much anger on behalf of these kids because that's probably what he's really feeling, you know, like other than sadness and disappointment and just is just probably rage at the injustice. of this situation and all he knows how to do is just perform and kind of like try attempts to end end the drama and yeah her anger at him is you know when you say an inability to be vulnerable or she's obviously very threatened by the compassion it's just so it's so the damage that does to a kid from an attachment point of view over years and years is so difficult to come back from because it's so these are emotional dynamics that you can't see you have to just trace the pattern and look at the context and timing she's not saying

like it sounds like she's not being like outwardly verbally abusive that you can be like hey you're doing this one thing this this contained thing it's like all these little things that you feel that you know are wrong but then you know like you said you're seeing her cry and so you offer compassion that's like where your brain goes but then she rejects it so it's it's just oh so confusing for these kids yeah there's there's two things you're saying that i think are so important like when you said where are the adults it makes me think of something i think you and i both have talked about in different ways that oddly gets a lot of pushback is like this idea that parents um should be leader

for life. And I think this is a perfect example of like that leadership that I'm talking about. If you are the matriarch of a family, you are hosting the holidays in your home, you set the tone, right? It is your job, I think, to be a beacon that people want to follow. And in this case, there are no adults in this house doing that. There's really no one for anyone to follow. And I think the people in the home that have differentiated themselves and done better for themselves, like Karmie, like Natalie, the sister, they still, like you said, are getting knocked back into those childhood roles because this moment with Donna, this is not the first time or the first way that this has happened. This has likely happened a thousand times since they were

little kids. So in that moment when we're watching this and it's like, oh, you know, she just having a hard time. Like, they all feel like toddlers or like little kids in their body triggered by all the other times that they did this with her. Like, it's impossible to separate it from the context. And so we can have empathy for Donna, but still say like, she's not doing her job as the parent here. The pushback, I think you and I both get, you know, when you're explaining this, I'm like, what? So the mom can't have a bad day. Yeah. So the mom has to be a robot. Like, that's what I get when I say these kinds of things. Like, when can the mom be human? And it's so interesting because she's only human to her kids in this way. They are the only ones out of all the

adults in the house. The kids are the only ones that are seeing her as a human and accepting her, wanting to help her and take care of her like out of everyone there it's the kids and so when these parents push back on this idea that they're leaders for life and they're saying when is it my turn basically to get taken care of I have to like for me I don't know about you but I have like for me I'm like I'm seeing this as what they're saying about their lives in general like it's not directed at me. It's more like they're saying, when is it going to be me to these other adults in their lives? Where is everyone? Why? Exactly. Which is, which I get that. I had something happened last night I want to share because I think this is such a perfect example for me of like

when I needed to be human but not with my kid. So I'm pregnant. I have my, so obviously I have a belly. I have my 17-month-old sitting on my lap and then my four-year-old is like doing that really hyper thing that little kids do where they like try to crawl all over your body. And I am getting overstimulated like to the max. I feel like I'm going to lose it because there's something about like having a baby in your body while you're being touched at the end of the day when I'm already tired that was sending me. And I looked at my four-year-old and was like, I need space. I need you to back up. Like, mom can't be touched right now. I tried that two times. I moved myself. He still was not getting it. And so I look at my husband. Like, this is me getting my needs. And it was like,

I need to go upstairs for a minute. And I passed him the baby and I went. And I think that's a perfect example of like, okay, I'm going to lead by showing my children. They're not responsible for how I feel. They can't control themselves in this moment. And I have another adult here that I'm going to turn to, Not everybody has that, but I think that's what you're kind of alluding to is like, you have no support. So then you put it on your kids. Everyone else around you is kind of failing you. And it's not that I needed to sit there and tolerate that or make it okay.

It's more just about what am I going to do with those feelings as the adult in the room, like the leader. Yeah. And it's reasonable to expect that from other adults around you. Exactly. Like, that's what people, like, this isn't an individual issue with you where you struggle to get your needs met. Like, we live and exist in relationships. This is what people are for. There are relational needs here.

When I've done work with people, this is what's come up. Is they're like, oh, I didn't realize that I could ask for things in my relationships. And I didn't think that I could expect things from people. I thought my issues were mine. I'm like, how do we get there? Yeah. But, you know, like that's. And so Donna, for example, in this moment that these are the adults' responsibilities around her to help her.

And the adult's responsibilities to explicitly say to the kids, like, we got this. Do not worry. This is not your responsibility. Y'all go have fun. Even with adults. And so even when they're adults, so again, not. knocking the mom, Donna, for having a human reaction and overwhelm and stress. Like, sure, she even created it herself, but, like, it can be repaired totally. And it's okay to show these

things in front of your kids, but to model getting them met by other adults and not the people you are that are vulnerable to you. Right. Exactly. Or who can't control themselves. Like, we put these demands on kids to regulate themselves more than we're even willing to do in those moments. Like the expectations don't make sense. Yeah, they don't make sense. Yeah. So I want to move to another scene that I think is interesting to kind of bring in the conversations about the outsiders that are there. There's like two or three people at this dinner that are boyfriend of someone, like people that are not related who come to this event. And prior to this, there's been a huge blow up at the dinner table where Mikey gets into it with Uncle Lee.

Forks end up being thrown. Like Uncle Lee is yelling at him like, you're nothing. I know you're high right now. And they're just, the tension has boiled over. Yeah. But it's really only between like the two of them and everyone else at the table is just kind of sitting there. like, don't throw the fork. It's a really unerving scene. But they move to saying a prayer now before they're going to eat after all of this has happened. And they call on this guy, Stephen, who I think is a boyfriend of one of the cousins. And I think it's so interesting that they pull in an outsider to say grace. And you can tell he's very uncomfortable to try to make things normal after what he's witnessed. And the part of his prayer is very interesting at

the end. He says, I love being here. Thank you for having me every year. I very much look forward to this. I love you and I'm very in love with Michelle, his girlfriend. You guys have been so kind to me. You let me hang out with you every holiday. I don't have a family like yours. I'm very grateful that you make space for me at this table and that you include me in your holidays. So we have this guy who feels this way about. We're talking about a dinner where silverware has been thrown at people. There's been screaming, fighting, still not eating. The matriarch is crying. And he is expressing some form of gratitude for being here. And I'm interested in what you think is going on here. Yeah. I mean, these events are great to be bystanders at. You know, you get dinner in a show.

It's truly entertaining. And you're getting something out of it. You know, it's not boring. It's not the opposite. It's not absent of stimulation. It's very, you know, you're, again, it's very stimulating. And so I think that part of it is, is funny where it's like, yeah, there's, again, there's, it's not all bad. It's not, it's not whole. It's not, there's no repair. There's just no connection, real connection. Connection is replaced by drama and by the illusion of closeness. It's an illusion. You know, like no one knows what Natalie, you know, Natalie is experiencing. Karmie can't show off his skills that he's learned in Copenhagen. Like there's no real getting to know of people, no real meaning, no real depth. That's why it's an

illusion of closeness. They're just like trauma bonded through all this anxiety and stress. And so I want, I don't know this guy's context, but of course, I like what comes to mind is when people see these families that have these kind of biting, biting humor or they have a lot of fun or they're, you know, there's still a lot of energy in these families. Everyone is like, oh my gosh, I wish my family was that fun or I wish they were that. idealize that. I think like the chaos and the all coming together and there being a lot of people there. I think especially for people who have very distant or small families, they look at that and it's like how fun would it be. But I think the thing here is that for this guy, these people are

not related to him. He doesn't have the history or the context. So you're so right that like to drop yourself into this moment and to be able to say, I can disconnect from any of you at any time. even if I marry this woman like I can divorce her and never see you guys again. Yeah. It's very different than that being your mother, you know, that really you. Yeah, you're not trauma bonded into it. So for you, it's just entertaining. Well, and the other thing that came to my mind was, you know, for someone like him, you know, or these small families that don't have the chaos where they're still emotional neglect present and it's empty and it's boring and the void of that feels so big you look at this home alone family or this family and you're like oh my gosh that would

give me something that would feed me in some ways without seeing that underlying it's just a distraction to this neglect that's really very obvious to people like you and me when we see it No one's asking the kids what they need, literally, like no one. And they're all asking what the mom needs. No adults are asking what the kids need and no adults are taking care of the mom. So it's just, again, it's an illusion of connection. It's just chaos. Yeah, yeah.

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And she's saying, like, she's talking about the food and saying, like, it doesn't fucking matter. She's sobbing. Everyone is reassuring her. It's like this classic, you know, let's rally around the person that's caused the most dysfunction now that she's kind of melting down. And her daughter's asking her if she's okay. And then Donna snaps at her from across the table and says, do you know,

how much I fucking hate when you ask me that, like in front of the whole dinner table. And you see Natalie just, like, shrinking, you know, before her eyes, like she's a little girl. And she's, Donna starts screaming at everyone. Are you okay? You didn't do shit. She's angry. You know, she's shattering plates. She's screaming at everyone. And then she storms off into the kitchen and is muttering that she's, like, ruining everything. And, And then we see Mikey, like, throw another fork at Uncle Lee, and the table, like, erupts into chaos. And in this moment, we haven't seen Donna for a few minutes, she drives her car straight through the dining room wall, narrowly, like, missing the family. And everyone just, like, stands in silence.

And the car is in the dining room. Wow. Yeah. I did not know this. I've not seen the scene. I've heard, you know, again, a lot of people have said that. I did not expect it to end that way. But again, it makes sense when all these emotions and anxiety are building, there has to be some relief at some point. And, you know, whether that's a fist fight or something breaking or a huge outburst, like when people don't know how to emotionally regulate except through conflict, there's always. going to be a disaster at the end of it. And so, you know, it would shock probably a lot of people and it surprises me because I didn't see it coming. But I'm just like, yeah, I mean, and everyone's good again. That resets the cycle. Mom had her out. You know, that's the peak of it. And then we're back to, okay, everyone's, you know, maybe I don't know what happens after that. And now it's like we're going to take care of mom. Like I think mom now has. really solidified herself in the position of victim in this moment because she is slumped over

in the vehicle, you know, they're pounding on the door to get her out. She's unresponsive. Like, Mikey's trying to get her out of the car. And this is the final scene of the episode. But the people who created this show, I think it was so poetic like you're saying to feel, you feel the tension, like building and building and building. And then when the car comes through the wall. It's like, oh, this was, like, watching a car crash this whole time. Like, that's really... It's such a metaphor. Yeah, what the episode was. And I think it's, it's, like, symbolic in a way to see her be

so self-destructive, like, to herself. And not, she was not thinking about her family in that moment. I mean, she could have killed everyone at the table. She just ran through the wall. So, like, it's very much just her trying to self-destruct, I think. I don't think she wanted to hurt them. Yeah, it doesn't, it definitely sounds like this is less about them and more about what she's feeling as a result of them and their behavior, but also more so as a result of her own beliefs and systems in her mind about she just she's trying to break free from this box that she's made in her mind yeah and she sees no way out other than the ultimate self-sacrifice

or martyrdom or victimhood or yeah self-destruction is the way you say it yeah um yeah wow that's i mean and i feel like that's so common and wouldn't you say like the that they're It ends in a meltdown that makes, that, like, ignites everybody's guilt to the end of the degree. Like, look, look how poorly mom is doing. She's so upset. So how could we possibly confront her about her behavior? Because especially when you grow up with parents who you feel like could die by suicide, you walk on eggshells. You don't want to confront them or because you feel responsible.

And I'm sure you have to. I've talked to adults who are like, my parents used to tell me I would be the reason, you know, if they ever did. And so thinking about like how much they would blame themselves if they had confronted her and she did something to herself. You know, I think it's very self-protective in a lot of ways to be like, can I get hurt or sick or have something happen to me and then no one can address the rest of my behavior tonight. We're just going to like move on because we're all focused on the car being in the

dining room. Right. Right. That, yeah, the level of fear they have around being assertive, you know, like that's, we hear this so much online. Like, why don't kids just stand up to their parents? Why don't they just tell them off or, you know, that's how you overcome trauma. And it's like the levels of psychological abuse and conditioning that they have been put through of being responsible for mom, but not being able to help mom, but sometimes you can. And then you get, you're like, oh, you're so wise, Natalie. Like, to me, I'm thinking back, like, I wonder how many times Natalie was adequately able to, for the mom, we'd be like, Natalie, you just get me. You know, like there was some, at some point that were. Yeah. And just the, it's like you said,

that over 25 years of this conditioning and this confusion and overwhelm. And the fear, the fear of doing anything differently and being responsible for their parent. I mean, it's just so, it's so messed up. Yeah. And the other important piece here that I didn't really mention is that, you know, their mom, I believe their father is deceased. And they may have been divorced before he passed away, but the mom does not have a partner. She doesn't have another adult, like, supporting her.

And so I think that has put even more pressure on the children, like, to be that for her. And I'm not sure when that happened in their life. But it seems like Natalie did become very much, like, surrogate, you know, spouse to seven to three. And also, Mikey, I think. Mikey lives with her, by the way, the older brother. Yes. No wonder. And they are very.

similar i think in terms of like the addiction and the mental health component and like he he has a lot more outward empathy for his mother and like that's just the way she is i think because that's he sees some of himself in her oh my gosh the dysfunction and how it's so it shapes the insides of kids yeah and you don't see a way out you know whatever what happened with mike like you just don't see a way out because you don't understand the level of these emotional dynamics and how harmful they are to and they i just picture this like spider web tangle in their own minds about relationships and people and themselves it's so disorienting that of course you're going to feel like there's no way out other than drugs or alcohol and and you know my own my own brand of self-destruction yeah there's

just no other way. Exactly. Well, there's a question that I like to ask everyone at the end of these episodes and we'll see what you think. I want you to rank this family on our dinner table scale. So the question is, would you want to sit at this table? One is absolutely not. Two is only on a holiday, like they're dysfunctional, but it's tolerable in the short term.

three is a mixed bag four pretty decent like i might be enjoyable and five i definitely want to pull up a chair well i guess the answer would depend on the role that i'm playing a lot of people are like i wish you could come with me to my sister's wedding i'm like i wish i could i would love that actually you know so if it's like to advocate for a family member yes If it's to get any needs met, no. If it's for Christmas and I'm nothing else, you know, I don't know. Again, because I think there is a level of entertainment and fun and like energy to this environment. Because I'm very, but I'm very much an observer.

So, I mean, if I'm like a removed adult. Yeah. But, you know, ultimately, I think I would feel I would want to shut it down and tell everybody what to do and what's going on. So I don't know if those people want me there, but I might like to be there. That was the most classic therapist answer I've ever heard in my whole life. What can I say? Just a lot of nuance to my decision. Yeah, I agree. I mean, once I saw the car come through the wall. I was like, I don't really think I want to be there for that. Like, that crossed my threshold. Even at the fork throwing, I'm a little bit like,

I don't do well with that type of chaos. I can do more of the like psychological warfare type type of. Yeah. Yeah, like when it gets physical or like when. Yeah, that's when I start to freak out, I think. Yeah. Well, I think in summary, my answer is like 100% yeah, I'll go. It's a hell yeah. I love to observe you. Yeah. But it would be, it's as an observer, it's interesting. But I agree with you. I would probably want to be going around having like side conversations like, did you notice this or was that bothering you? I mean, you've got stories, you know, like, how is your holiday? Because mine might top it. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, there's that factor, that part of me that's like, yeah.

Yeah. But it's true. It's so it goes back to what we were saying of like, it's so different to be an observer than to be. someone that is actually as a child no really it hell no like if this was my family i'll be skipping yeah no yeah goodbye 100% well i want to thank you so much for joining me today this was so fun as always and it was great to have you back for a second time meantime the calling home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services mental health advice or other medical advice or services it is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship between you and Calling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home's terms of service linked in the show

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