CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - We Tried to Set One Boundary and Lost 40 Family Members with Jon and Ashley Lefrandt

Episode Date: August 4, 2026

If you've spent time in the estrangement conversation online, you've noticed how fast it flattens into two camps: the people who cut off and the people who got cut off. Ashley and Jon Lefrandt have lived on both sides of that line. The couple behind Leave Then Cleave joins Whitney to talk about what happened when they asked for space from one family member and ended up estranged from 40 family members. Together they explore what it looks like to hold onto your faith when your faith is the thing being used against you.In this episode, you'll learn:- How honor thy father and mother gets used to override every other thing a person believes- Why a family system escalates when one person stops complying- What words like grace, forgiveness, and reconciliation actually mean, and who tends to be the one insisting on them- How to keep a faith that has been weaponized against youConnect with Ashley and Jon LefrandtLeave Then Cleave: https://www.leavethencleave.com/Jon and Ashley’s Book: https://amzn.to/4fUGi4JWhitney Goodman is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and the founder of Calling Home, a membership community that helps people navigate complex family dynamics and break harmful cycles.Have a question for Whitney? Send a voice memo or email to [e-mail] the Family Cyclebreakers Club: https://callinghome.coFollow Whitney on Instagram | sitwithwhitFollow Whitney on YouTube | @whitneygoodmanlmftOrder Whitney's book, Toxic Positivity: https://sitwithwhit.com/toxic-positivitySign up for updates on Whitney's new book: https://cmnyyv4kpyt.typeform.com/to/PHMzjy0oThis podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to calling home. I am Whitney Goodman. If you've spent any time in the world of family estrangement, especially online, you've probably noticed how quickly the conversation gets flattened into two camps, the people who cut off and the people who got cut off, the villains and the victims, depending on who is telling the story. But the story can often become a lot more complicated, especially when faith is part of the picture. For a lot of people raised in religious families, setting a boundary doesn't just feel like a hard conversation. It feels like a failure.

And my guests today know that tension. Ashley and John LeFrant are the couple behind the account Leave, then Cleave, where they write and speak about faith, boundaries, and family estrangement. Their own stories started the way a lot of these stories start, with an attempt to set up a boundary with one person. person. And what happened next is that they ended up estranged from around 40 members of their family. And they put it as, we didn't establish boundaries because we wanted distance. We established boundaries because we hoped for healthier relationships. Today we're going to talk about the

intersection of estrangement, boundaries, and religion. How faith can be used to keep people quiet, how it can also set them free, and what it actually looks like to honor your parents and protect your piece at the same time. We're going to talk about both sides of estrangement because Ashley and John have lived on both. Let's get into it. So the first thing I like to ask anybody that is speaking about their own personal story online is kind of how did you get here? And did you imagine yourselves ever sort of ending up on a podcast talking about family estrangement? No. No. It was really surprising. I will answer this first and foremost just because we had a conversation about it the other day, in fact. So after everything really kind of went down with my family and we were fully estranged,

I started to feel compelled to speak about it in a way that I just, I couldn't even really put my finger on why. and I thought it must be kind of the trauma because it was such a strong feeling to speak about it. But it terrified me because I come from a highly enmeshed narcissistic family. We are pro secret keepers. And, you know, to speak openly and is so against kind of what I've always been conditioned to do. And so I kept having so much anxiety. Why do I feel so compelled to speak openly about this? And I knew that there was an education element.

I mean, that's what I wanted to do is educate others because once I started to understand it, I just couldn't believe how trapped I had been for so long. And I think that, you know, whenever you learn something, it's very natural to want to help others. But also you're talking about very personal things and other people's. personal things. And it felt really, really wrong. And I actually battled the anxiety of feeling compelled to speak, but not doing it for a couple years before I finally decided to be really open because I just felt like, I mean, obviously we are, we are religious. And so, so it's kind of that is this God speaking to me. Is this the spirit that's compelling me to speak or is it my trauma?

And you know, you just kind of have to sift through that. And I got to a point where I was just like, you know what? I think it's really what God is prompting me to do. And so at this point, not obeying might be the worse sin than maybe speaking and saying too much. You know, there's, we also believe in repentance. So I was just like, I'm going to have to just explore speaking because the feeling isn't going away. And I had spent a lot of time begging God to take it away, right? Like, this can't be right.

Feels like throwing people under the bus or speaking negatively about their personal experiences. That's none of my business. But, yeah, at some point, I just felt like I have to follow this. I know I have pretty good intuition. And I have to trust it as scary as it is. So, Ashley, you know, I think from watching your content, both of you. I wasn't sure whose family, kind of you were estranged from, so it is your family.

And I'm wondering if we can go back to how this all started. I know you all tell the story that you were setting a boundary with one person and that has really led you to becoming estranged from your entire family. Would you mind walking me through how that happened? Yeah, I'm actually going to defer to John on this because if I tell it, I'm going to give 40 years worth of experience and he's going to be able to sift through like where it went bad fast. I understand. Well, and it is interesting. Sometimes I get criticism online because I do more of kind of the talking head reels and I'm, that's more my natural gift. And we do the podcast together. Ashley really loves long form communication. But, but I also think I was in this family for 18 years and it was a very

and meshed family. And so sometimes people are like, why are you the one talking about your wife's family? Why are you that, you know, and it's like, no, this happened to both of us. And there's definitely things that happened within childhood that also had led us to this point. But this experience really happened to both of us. And we had one individual of the family and it was a person that I had gone into business with. And it got to a point where we needed to have stronger just boundaries and from this individual. And we, it was around the holidays. And Ashley had started just doing more research and trying to understand she majored in marriage, family, human development. So she's always been very intrigued with just family systems. And she's always wanted a healthy marriage and a

healthy family. And she's the youngest of seven kids. So she observed a lot and connected a lot of dots and saw patterns across siblings and saw things that were concerning. But it all kind of culminated to this point where everything started clicking and she was really starting to understand what happened, you know, to her both in childhood and why the problems exist in adulthood. But we kind of were with this one individual and it was around the holidays and we kind of said, look, we're not going to be doing Thanksgiving and we're not going to be doing Christmas with the family. And that wasn't we want to be estranged from all you forever. It was just simply one individual that we said we needed greater distance from and that

if that individual would be there, we would not. And it wasn't this ultimatum of like choose us or choose them. It was just simply saying, this is what we need to do for our family. And we just need to find this piece. And with time, we wanted to sit down and kind of help each of them understand the reasonings behind it. And so we kind of went and talked and Ashley would have conversations with her siblings and we sat her parents down one night and talked to them about it because we just wanted them to understand that this wasn't some rash, dramatic decision, that there was actual thought that went behind it and concern knowing that this would maybe, you know, disrupt their perfect family image that they had, but that we just needed to do what was in the best interest of us.

And our kids were getting older. I mean, our oldest is now graduated from high school. And we wanted to start creating just traditions and things on our own. own and having our own kind of family unit. And eventually through that dialogue, the system started talking, I think, and making plans behind us. And we were eventually given a seven-page letter. It was from her mother's email account. We later found out her mom didn't even write it or send it. But every single member of the family was copied on the email. And it was a seven-page letter that was filled with a lot of kind of religious manipulation tactics and very much were the matriarch and patriarch and honor thy father and my mother and, you know, your boundaries are kind of ridiculous and go

throw your own fit, but, you know, we'll welcome you back whenever you finally decide that you're in the wrong type of a thing. And they were especially upset because not only just the one individual, but Ashley was getting curious beyond that and was identifying patterns of things that had happened in many of the marriages. And that poked a lot of shame, I think, and a lot of individuals. And so then as a result, you know,

we're just kind of interesting. We went in more of like a no contact situation first with this one brother-in-law. Then I was the one that basically said to my mother-in-law, since she was the one that wrote this email, I said, we had kind of just reached enough. And I just said, you know, I think that you've cut us out of your life at this point. And please don't call or email or text me. And the next morning after that happened, she had done a group text with everybody on it and sent a podcast that was all about forgiveness. And I just text her again individually. And I said, I asked you yesterday to not text me. And now you've included me back in with the entire family because they have to, it's like kind of a mob mentality. And so I had to then make it even stronger so that she understood. And even though the communication was just directed to her specifically,

the entire family went radio silent with us. And so it was like we went no contact with one person, but then we've become estranged from all of them because they completely just shoved us out of the system. Well, and I just wanted to add a couple things. That was interesting because John did place the boundary with then just my mom. But then she acted as though he was keeping her from me. Like she just went into full victim mentality and didn't even try to text me or just be like, or call me. Like what happened? I didn't, I did not mean to, you know, cause harm on this level.

Help me understand. Right. she just went radio silent with even me. And I wasn't reaching out to her because I was so upset. And in all honesty, I don't feel this now. But at the time, I did feel that John overreacted a little bit. And I did think that his response, yeah, was just a little harsh of like, please don't ever text me again.

I didn't foresee that being kind of like an official cutoff, kind of. Well, and we had never, I mean, a lot of people think that, that therapists and influencers convince people to do this. That was not even on our radar. It was more like instinctual. It was very protective of like this felt like a massive threat to us. And it was just finally kind of that straw that broke the camel's back. We then learned about all of this world, you know, that exists. But at the time, there was no buddy that influenced us to do that.

Well, and the thing that was causing me to have so much concern, and I'll just keep this really high level. But our brother-in-law, who we were trying to get space from, had a lot of issues and was basically living a double life and had a lot of issues that I had seen in the men previously in my family. And I have just watched the patterns of the benefit of the doubt is always given to the betrayer. and the victim of the betrayal is always told to be more loving, more Christ-like. It's, you know, their love is what will cause the betrayer to want to be a good husband. So if he's not, that's on you. Yeah. And I just, and I just reached a breaking point because the behaviors of this brother-in-law were so egregious and layered, stacked, many problems.

and for them to defend him and not see our position of, hey, we weren't even asking them to not invite them to holidays. I know my family. You don't do that. We were volunteering. We will step out. We want space. We will be the ones to do Christmas Eve and Thanksgiving on our own.

But it was just not accepted. And so it's like, while I thought in the moment, John's reaction, was strong. I had my own concerns, but then, I mean, that were huge. But then to see how they responded since then just made me feel like this is so wrong. Like they are sick. They are sick. Yeah. And it sounds like you guys were kind of saying this year we're going to sit it out, like almost like you needed to regroup and figure out what you're going to be doing moving forward. not that you were making a statement for every holiday or event in the future and that just that pulling away is what resulted in them formalizing this as an estrangement.

Yes. Yes. Well, and to be honest, this is my sister who's right above me, who I love a lot. You know, like I'm, I can see that she is in a very, very precarious situation where her husband is pretending to have changed many egregious behaviors that would actually take a person years to overcome just one of those things, let alone many, right? But in my family, all a person has to do is say, oh, yeah, I confess I'm better. And it's like, it's believed, you know? It's kind of that. Just tell us what we want to hear and we'll believe it. So the fact that I wasn't believing it,

I was saying, and those were kind of some of the conversations we were having when we were trying to help them understand. It's, it really at that time wasn't even, I mean, it was about us. And especially John, he needed the space. And I absolutely saw that. But it was like, what about my sister? Can you not see she's in trouble? You know, your sister, your daughter. And actually, my oldest sister was totally on board. She saw it. But at some point, every other perpetrator just became very threatened. And my oldest sister has suffered in a marriage that is full of betrayal. But it's kind of one of those she and my mom.

I started to see that the women who have stayed, they kind of think it's noble. And because they've taken the abuse and told themselves that it's noble, they expect everybody else to do it too. So the fact that we stood up against it and said, no, it was just kind of like, how could you? That's not how, that's not the right thing to do. That's not the noble thing to do. Yeah. Well, it makes everyone else in the family have to look at themselves. You know, if their marriage looks like the one that you're calling out,

that's very painful. And if it's like, I don't, I don't want to look at my own for being that way or have to do something about it. So I'm certainly not going to point out in, you know, my sister or my neighbor, whoever, the thing that I don't want to look at. But what I'm hearing from you all is that, and I see this in your content and in the comment section, like, what you were doing is, is not only countercultural in a lot of ways, but extremely countercultural within your own community. And so I'm wondering, like, what have you experienced as you've been, because I've had, I have people tell me that I'm like doing the work of Satan, that I'm demonic, all this. all the time, and I'm not speaking about biblical concepts. So I'm wondering how, how this, what pushback

are you getting here? Yeah. We get it every single day. You know, I get people that feel like it's their own personal mission and, and they're, I don't know, they're, they're, them exhibiting faith to the utmost degree to try and kind of tear us down. And I know that a lot of that comes from a place of pain. and we are very faithful and religious people, and we always have been. But the thing that we feel like has actually been a blessing through all of this is what we decided to do, oftentimes in these dynamics, people will leave their faith because the faith was used to control and manipulate and shame and bully people back in. And certainly Ashley's family tried that on us many, many times.

So what we ended up doing is we just said, we don't want to throw out our faith. We're too, we believe so much in it. But let's maybe take all the pieces of it apart and then rebuild it and see what it looks like. And let's look at it through a different lens to see that if what we are doing is not an alignment with our faith, yes or no. And we really wanted to be careful with that. And truly, it took a lot of time. But as we were studying scripture and as we were meeting with, you know, faith leaders and having these discussions, it became very, very clear that, like, the doctrine of Jesus Christ had been used over time by many families as a control and manipulation tactic.

And it wasn't actually the things that Christ himself taught. and it was so illuminating for us because we're able to look at that and go, wow, it compounded the problem and helped us realize just how tragic this is that there are so many people that have had something that is such an important part of their life been used as a weapon. And that, I don't know, I mean, I think that that kind of then became its own little genre in and of itself. And kind of back to the beginning of when we started talking, talking. We started this about two years ago, a year and a half, two years ago. And the first time, we were very just tentative. We didn't know exactly how to go. And it was about six to eight months ago that then we decided to try it again. And when we tried it again, all of a sudden, everything exploded online. And the reels were going viral and everything was just crazy. And it was like, oh, we're now, like, now we realize we're in kind of alignment with this specific, like, thread of the estrangement problem. And it's something that nobody wanted to talk about because of that

shame that's affiliated with it. So it was just so illuminating, you know, for us, but we feel very, very confident now that we've done the work and the research and the study and the prayer to realize we are in alignment with our faith fully and that it's really sad to see people take sound bites and then use those to harm other people. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I just wanted to comment, going back to your original question of, you know, what has it been like with your community? I'm seeing that from a very personal lens, right?

like the people in my parents' church community that I grew up with, all of our family friends, all of our extended family, they have all been turned against us. And, you know, we live just 20 minutes north of where I grew up. There's a ton of crossover. And for the last few years I really have or two years gone around, you feel like you have a scarlet letter on your forehead. Yeah, I would imagine so. Yeah, like I know you have opinions of me and I don't know what they are, but I'm assuming that they're not that great. And people will be patronizing. But there's also a little bit of like pity of just like, oh, you just, we just love your family so much. And

you know, you can tell that they just hope, like, we just hope that one day you can forgive them. And, you know, and there has been a lot, a lot of those kinds of feelings and reactions. I would say a few people have been out, like that I know personally have been out and out, um, rude about it. A couple people have, but not that many, but more patronizing, which. in and of itself is really difficult. But yeah, it's, it is so fascinating to see how many people just want you to not talk. Even if they believe that you might be telling the truth. And that would say, I would say that's all of my aunts and uncles, right? They know I'm telling the truth.

They, everyone knows I'm telling the truth. There's, when you come from a high profile in your community, narcissistic family. I mean, there, you just learn you're probably the butt of a lot of people's jokes, right? And because there are extreme behaviors and everybody thinks that everybody in my family thought they were better than everybody else. That was just kind of the tone in our home. And, and I, I never believed that. But then it takes time to sort out of just like, but I am from this family and we're special. And so I have to be, you know, and people can feel that. It's weird, right? So anyway, there's so many different emotions, but yes, it has come at a high cost within just our own personal community of people we know. And John doesn't get that feeling

so much because he's just not from around here. But it's been okay because, you know, I was only able to do it because I really do feel like I have a connection with God. And I can see looking back, he has brought me out of this place and he's been doing it my whole life. And I think that I really do have an ability to hear and listen to him and his direction. And I can see that. And I will acknowledge it now because I just see so many of my siblings and even, you know, other people who are stuck that are very blinded. And, you know, when you read scripture, there typically does seem to be one person who was sent to kind of change the dynamic. And there were many times that I would read scripture and I would feel God sending me those messages.

Like, I am giving this to you for a reason. And it's bigger than you. You've been prepared to do it. it will take many, many years, but this will help for good. And I need you to be brave enough, you know, I need you. And I like in Matthew 10, he says to take up your cross and die. And it's kind of you're acting in what he had to do for us. There are certain things we have to be willing to give up for the greater good when you are truly trying to follow Christ. but the cool thing is, is that I have felt his guidance and direction and support and peace so overwhelmingly

that that is what brings the strength. You know, it's just like we're not tempted to back down because nobody else has been able to give me that kind of clarity, that kind of peace, that kind of assurance, that kind of wisdom. You know, you start to grow wisdom and you're just like, I could never go back. I think when I'm hearing you talk, something I find so interesting, and you guys kind of brought this up in how these things can be weaponized. And I think as an outsider of this community and someone who's sort of just observing how it can be weaponized, especially online and with my clients, I, let me think how I want to say this.

I think that hearing about your faith in what you're doing, is such a beautiful thing and it's something that guides you and you feel strong in. And then I see people, and I would imagine your family feels like this, who think that God is telling them and they feel very strong in their faith, right, to say, we are not going to speak out about this. We are going to stick together. Or I am going to remain committed in my marriage, even where I am having all of these things happen to me that I know are wrong. And I'm wondering how you all reconcile that difference in what everyone sort of, I guess it would be faith or their connection to God is telling them to do in these situations. Yeah, it's, it is an interesting thing.

And I think that, you know, faith in general is such a personal journey for every single individual. It's, you can identify a Christian, but every Christian does have, I think, a little bit different just nuances and lens based on their lived human experience. And so for us, it has been the process of trying to understand human nature and human behavior and then combine that also with the gospel and doctrine. And a lot of people don't do that, right? They may look at it just strictly from a scriptural lens. And if you do that and you don't understand how humans work, like one thing I talk a lot with people about is the feeling of guilt. You know, guilt has talked a lot about in faith communities because if you have, you know,

committed a sin, you're going to feel guilty because you're not in alignment with God. Okay, that's one way that you can feel guilt. But another way that you can feel guilt is because you are conditioned in childhood to do certain things. And if you go against that, you also then feel guilt. And so there are two different types of guilt that are there. One is human conditioning because of the family culture that you grew up in. And the other is more of a spiritual nature and your alignment with God. And what I then teach, what we teach is focus on the one that's in alignment with God.

Understand if you believe in that faith, then make sure your values are aligned with that. But then also understand the human error part of it because we both identify as recovering people pleasers, for example. And so we felt guilt all the time about the way we handled the situation, the way we said something or this, that and the other. That doesn't mean that God is disappointed in how we handled it per se. It's the conditioning of the way we have kind of grown up and matured as humans. So, you know, again, everyone has their own interpretation. Everyone has their own values. And for me, it's just more about being in alignment with your values is what's so important. regardless of your faith. And that was where I think it's just interesting to see the hypocrisy

sometimes in it. It's like Ashley mentioned Matthew 10. That whole chapter is about the gospel dividing families actually. And it says that Christ's word is going to come and cut like a sword and it's going to put father against, you know, it goes through all these family relationships, but no one wants to look at that. Why? Because it makes them uncomfortable. So then they're going to focus more instead on honor thy father and mother. And, you know, it's, and so when you see that, you then can look at it through the human behavior lens and you go, okay, is this, is this doctrine or is this just, you know, humans trying to make themselves feel comfortable in the situation. So, I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. And we always have two different thoughts to

things. And I agree with everything John said. I would just add, you know, one of the things that I learned in coming from a highly controlling family was religiously, like, Jesus Christ came and died for each of us to, for the purpose of giving us agency so that we could choose, make our own choices and learn from ourselves, and still have the gift of repentance and not have to be damned for those choices. And so, but the thing that he died for ultimately was our agency for us to choose. And so I have really learned that wherever control manifests in us trying to control another person or them trying to control us, that is not the spirit of Jesus Christ. And it is not in alignment with the doctrine of Jesus Christ. And so when I say, I know that the spirit has compelled me to speak in the same.

is what I'm supposed to be doing. If somebody else is the spirit, well, no, you know, the spirit tells me to be quiet, that might be true. You know, it like John said, faith is very, very personal. And I do, this is just thoughts by me, but I do feel like, you know, God will give each of us very unique directives depending on where we personally need to become unstuck or brave, right? So where I've been very conditioned to keep silence and see that as noble, I think the spirit has compelled me to speak. I think somebody else who's more prone to speaking might be told, be quiet. You know, and God will have his purposes. But as much as I don't understand it, if somebody, you know, gives me an opposing thing of just like,

the spirit would never, I feel like this for me. And I, for me, and I'm just like, that might be true for you. And I just try not to judge it. Sometimes I don't agree with it. And sometimes, like John said, I question, you know, like, well, I really hope that that's right for you. But also that's your right and your choice and your relationship with God. And I try to not make that my business, you know? Yeah. You know, actually, I've never heard someone explain it that way, like the part about, you know, agency and each person being sort of gifted the freedom to do what works for them. And I'm sure there's limits to that in the world of doing things that are very harmful. But I find that in most of the families that I have encountered where it is more of a, I would say, a high control family,

like you're talking about that is using religion as a means to control. I would say that they're using it in the exact opposite way that you are describing, right? It's sort of being used as these are a set of rules that you must follow in order to be part of this family and being part of this family includes being a good Christian and it's following these specific rules. And there's very, very little wiggle room. And it almost starts to drift into, and I don't know if this is something you've encountered, but like who they're supposed to marry, what job they're supposed to have, how they're supposed to dress, which are all things that I'm like, are those really biblical things or those, you know, control things within the family? Is that something that you guys have noticed

as well? Yes. Yes. And this is why we're so passionate about it, because we love our religion. And it has given us wings to fly now that we understand it. But we know how many people are trapped by exactly what you just explained. Families and systems using religion to control, and then they bounce. They're just like, if this is God, I want nothing to do with him. Yeah, and it's understandable, right? I feel like, yeah. The truth is it's not God at all. And so that's why we've felt so, you know, compelled to speak on it and educate because it really does. And, you know, going back, Jesus addresses the Sadducees and the Pharisees, that's them. You know, they are all about keeping the law. And it is down to the most minute, controlling little thing.

And then they're telling Jesus that he's wrong. Like, you can't do that on Sunday. You just healed a man on Sunday. You can't do that. You just broke the law of the Sabbath. And Jesus is like, there's a higher law. Like, you know, and, and so when you look at it, it is. It's, that's the Pharisees and the Sadducees trying to control every single little thing. But I like to look at it to, you know, I sat down with a therapist when things were all just, they were falling apart, but I did not understand it. And, you know, we were at a work dinner actually for John.

I didn't know this guy. He was just the spouse of one of John's. coworkers that he didn't even know that well. We're just at a random table. And he said, we said, what do you do? And he said, I'm a therapist. And John goes, oh, boy, are you prepared for Ashley to ask you a million questions? And, you know, at this time, I was just like trying to drink any water of truth that I could get. And I was like, it's true. Can I talk to you? Will you let me ask you questions? And, you know, and it helped because he was not religious. I knew he was not part of our religion. He was not religious. And I wanted that perspective because I could see

that as much as I love our religion and I believe in it wholeheartedly, I can see how much of it has gone astray just within the people controlling and not being able to see up from down. So anyway, I just said, look, there's a lot of secrets. And he just kind of explained to me. He's like, yeah, of course there are secrets. Of course your grandparents were trying to pretend like everything was perfect. He's like, look, that started in the war. You know, you have all of these men coming home with their from war with total PTSD of the egregious things that they've seen. They don't know how to talk about it. It's not what society does. Therapy is seen as only, you know, the quack jobs. So they start acting out. They start drinking. They start having affairs.

They start doing whatever they can to act out, but they're doing it in secret because if their boss were to find out they would be fired, right? And so he's like, society learned to put on this image of perfection as total survival. And, you know, we're four and five generations and six generations ahead of that now, but many, many families are still stuck in those survival patterns of just pretend everything's okay, sweep it under the rug, look good. But then as a result, result to keep the mask on or everything swept under the rug, everybody needs to comply, right? So there's a lot of manipulation. So that's why you see it in Christianity across the board, all religion. But, you know, I always refer to the movie The Help. I love that because you can just

see it so clearly that, you know, like in the South, it's just, it's all about image. And we're just working out of that. And I really do believe that it is the spirit of God and truth that is working through those who will hear him to try to help unwire this. I want to read you a comment that I found in one of your posts because I think that it captures an objection that I hear a lot to this. And so someone said it's, and you may have seen this comment or not, but they said it's interesting to see someone encouraging family estrangement while promoting a book on Christ like boundaries. Christ set boundaries, but he also consistently called people toward forgiveness, reconciliation, humility, and love. Boundaries in permanent

estrangement are not the same thing. If every family conflict ended in people cutting off, where would grace, repentance, and restoration fit? The message of the gospel isn't that relationships are disposable. It's that broken relationships can be redeemed. And this is a flavor of comment that I get. all the time. These words especially, humility, grace, love, repentance. And I'm wondering what your response would be to this person, especially when you're talking about Christ-like boundaries. Yeah, that's exactly what we've had to do. We've looked at every single one of those words and tried to understand it more fully. One of the stories that we tell in the book, but that Ashley also talks about is, you know, the word love, for example, and what does love mean?

And Ashley grew up, whereas she's come to kind of this awareness, she believed that love and compliance were synonymous with each other, that that's how you love your parents and how you honor them is by being compliant. Show me in the doctrine of Jesus Christ where it says that. It doesn't. But family has taken that word and manipulated it. And so same thing. You have to look at each other. one of those words individually, we believe in all of them. You know, we believe in forgiveness, we believe in redemption, we believe in reconciliation, we hope for all of those things. But when there is abuse and harm and, you know, things that aren't in alignment with your boundaries, show me where it says that Christ wants you to go back into those environments and continue to take the abuse. He didn't do that, in fact. You know, it's the very thing that,

got him killed is because he would not conform to a lot of those environments. And he went and spoke truth and he caused contention. He caused chaos, you know, in the city because of those things. And so we believe in all of them and we hope for all of them. And that's why we also say, I think as Christians, we're like, look, we are not going to ever be under the belief that reconciliation is impossible. Is it likely in this life for us personally? No, but we will always hope for it, you know, and I think that that is what Christ asks us to do. And if we can continue, you know, to make sure that we're, that we are being humble, that this isn't coming from a place of ego, that we're not trying to harm other individuals, that this isn't out of revenge or

vengeance on a person, you know, but we're doing it because God has given us stewardship over our marriage and over the children that we have been gifted to be able to protect, that is our highest, you know, honor, and it is our highest duty and obligation is to protect that. And so, no, I'm not going to let, you know, a wolf and sheep's clothing come into my home and wreak havoc. And Christ wouldn't expect that. Do I hope that someday that person will produce good fruit, right? we talk about that a lot that will then allow us to have reconciliation. You bet, but I can't control that. I can only have good discernment to judge whether this person is safe or not,

and then I need to act in accordance with that. And if I don't, I'm completely betraying my beliefs and allowing that person to come in and just destroy the very thing that God wants us to protect. So it is all nuanced, and a lot of people try to use that. And it's like you could go and just talk in circles about it. But I think the important thing is to understand each of those individually and we as humans need to be humble enough to really look at our motives, you know, check those motives and get it in the right priority of things. And that's why we talk in our platforms called leave then cleave. And it goes all the way back to Adam and Eve in the garden where, you know, God asks them to do that. But it's you do leave and then you cleave to one another. The order is you

need to be in alignment with God and then in alignment with your spouse. And a lot of people try to make it so that, no, honor thy father and thy mother is above that commandment. And that's the wrong order. It's, it's, you don't put your parents first. You put your spouse and God first, God and your spouse first, right? And so it's just those subtle little teeny tiny shifts. And it does take work to really understand the nuances and how the slight degree shift in the knowledge that's there has wreaked major havoc and gotten some people very much off course and therefore you have the dysfunction in the family that they do. Totally. I think, you know, Ashley, you were talking about this earlier and now, John, you've done a good job of circling back to that, that this concept of like grace

and forgiveness and these words, I find that they're often being pushed typically by the person who wants the grace because they keep repeating patterns. And I think it's, getting very clear like you're saying, John, what do all these words mean in your family? Because they mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, right? Like, what is grace? What is forgiveness? I find whenever I'm talking to people about these things, they mean so many different things. And for me, grace doesn't mean you get unlimited passes, you know, to harm me. That's not my definition of grace. But for some people who don't want to change and they don't want to be, accountable, that's their definition, you know, and they want to use those words because those words

sound very nice. They do. And they make everybody feel comfortable, well, especially the people that are perpetrating the problem, but the problem is the other people that are expected to be the bigger person, it destroys them inside, you know? Well, and it's interesting because you have the people who continue to perpetrate that don't want to have to look at themselves. And so they perpetuate these narratives, right? And it is very self-fulfilling. Then you have the people like so many of the women in my family who have believed it and just suffered. But then they kind of, to endure the why, they tell themselves how noble it is, right?

And so they perpetuate this because they actually cannot bear the pain of like, you're telling me I didn't need to do this and I've spent my whole life doing it. You know, like I know that my mom feels like she is going to absolutely get a first passed to heaven for just enduring so much, right? 100%. Or they probably, these people wouldn't keep doing that, you know, if there wasn't, like they saw that there was going to be a reward at the end of this. Right. So it's like, suddenly I come along and it's like, you're telling me, I, what I've been doing isn't noble. You know, like, that's very scary to look at, like, I've sacrificed my entire life for this narrative

that's, that's kept me. So I just wanted to share. this, as per usual, you have one question and John has an answer and I have an answer and they're both right. But I had, I was working through this with a therapist. And this one, I made sure she was our same religion. And I wanted somebody who knew the doctrine back and forth. And I just, I had, I'd done a lot of research. I had waited because I was just like, I was very vulnerable. And I'm like, I cannot, I just need the right person who is going to give me truth, right? And she actually didn't respond in the way she, I thought she would. I thought she would tell me that I needed to be more forgiving.

And actually, that's an answer I was prepared to handle. But she didn't. And she said, you know, you know, what's interesting is that people really love to say the words of Jesus. And I wish that they would read all the words of Jesus. because Jesus said a lot more than just turn the other cheek. And she's like, I want you to go to Matthew 10 with me. So these are the verses that she read.

And I'm just going to read a few if you'll allow me. Oh, please. So this is Matthew 10, verse 34. And this is Jesus speaking. Think not that I come to send peace on earth. I come not to send peace, but a sword. For I come to set a man at variance against his father and the daughter against her mother and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law,

and a man's foes, which I've looked up, that means enemies, and a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. He that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross and followeth after me is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that looseth his life for, my sake shall find it. And I love that when he says for my sake, and Jesus describes himself

himself as three things. I'm the way, the truth, and the light. So one of his definitions of himself is the truth. And that means the truth as it relates to everything, you know, the truth of who John really is and who I am and, you know, the dynamic in our marriage. And he's just, he's all truth, right? And in that therapy session, that was one of the major light bulbs that went off. And I think we do know we've spent a lot of time just knowing that even the best of Christians and those who are trying will be confused. and that it does take a sincere seeker to be able to find truth, and it also takes bravery. And I actually got a message this morning of a girl who our families were friends.

And she said, and their dynamic is really, really similar. I didn't know her well, but she said to me, the dynamic is similar. and that after so much seeking God, he told her to give it to him and to create separation and focus on the gift that is her own family, her husband and children, and that he will heal those relationships in the next life. But for this life, she needs to take that gift and she and protect it and be at peace and trust him. And I loved that she said that. It was so beautiful. And I believe that wholeheartedly. My personal feeling has been a little bit different as it should and would be because we are individuals with different missions to fulfill and different ways that God is going to ask us to show up. And I think that's also in Christianity, you can get very stuck thinking,

oh, we all should be doing the exact same thing. Nope, that's control. Yeah. So there needs to be a lot of space for your story is going to look different than mine. And isn't that amazing that Christ knows each one of us so perfectly and has a unique plan and way to execute each one of our lives individually based off of our own individual circumstances. That to me shows of his power and presence. The fact that it's different, right? So my personal, I feel like directive from God. And I have to check and recheck this often. And I expect that one day it may change, but mine is to continue to leave doors open to try. Now, that's not, there are times where I go several months with no contact. But at the end of the day, there are always open doors, because

that is what I have felt if I can teach enough that God will also be doing his own work. And that doesn't mean that there will be healing. I know that. But I look at it as, well, and for me personally, it's all about my dad. I think that God is trying to work to help him to see some of these things. Just even so he can believe. come to know himself and maybe do a little bit of work to repair some of the patterns that he put in place that are destroying the generations, you know. And so, but I don't have a lot of contact with my dad. But I also, it's not kind of, it's not that sever and move on. But I'm open where he shows the ability to change. And just in the last couple weeks, we've kind of

at this point where I'm like, oh, God is moving my dad. He's almost 84. Will it actually happen? I don't know. But also, that's not even my, it's not even on me. It's not even my responsibility, right? And I've gotten to a place where I'm just like, it could go either way. I'm just kind of an instrument in God's hands, and I pray for him to guide me and to know when to engage and know when to hold back. And, you know, it's a daily journey with him. And it doesn't look. like anybody else's. And so it's funny to me when you get Christians trying to say, well, I do it this way and so, so should you. No, that's also not in alignment with the doctrine of Jesus Christ at all. Yeah. It becomes a way to just like assert control. And I think any teachings,

right, in a family that has, I have seen the same patterns in high control religious families and those that are not religious, right? It's just one is using a certain message maybe from the Bible or from their specific religion to enforce that and others are using different types of beliefs like this is how we do things because we are this family. It's all the same pattern though, right? But I think what I love so much about both of your message is that it's not about you all being right. It's kind of about everyone seeing that there can be different perspectives in this family. There can be different levels of tolerance for different behaviors. And what it might take just in your family is there being one other person, two other people willing to see some shades of gray.

Because right now you've got this cohesive mass. And when people saw what happened to you all, That almost makes them cling even harder to the story. Yeah, because it's like, oh my gosh, look what happens when you go against the family here. You get cut out. They immediately after the letter booked in all expenses paid trip to Italy and took everybody there so that they could rally the troops and get them all bonded. And her mom would say to her, we've never been more bonded. And it's like you've never been more unified. And you're like, but you have a whole.

Family removed. You're missing an entire family. And my mom and I have always been the closest. Like I have been her favorite child forever. I'm not. Well, for the first 40 years of my life, we were just connected because I would emotionally connect with her in the ways that none of my siblings would. She was a nuisance.

Yeah. And also, you all have children. Like to say that in the face of, you know, you know that that's not true. Because if you have grandchildren missing from your family, I mean, no one can say like, oh, we've never felt better, you know, when you've lost people in this that are, that are largely innocent also to the dynamic. And so I think that tells you, you know, how afraid people can be to step out of some of these narratives. And especially for you all to be walking this line of both, like, victim in all of this and being labeled as perpetrator, you know, in some of these dynamics.

And it sounds like there's a lot of people in this that actually have like nothing to do with what was going on. They've just decided to pick aside and that's how they got involved. They're forced to pick aside for inclusion for love. Yeah. Yeah. And that muddies the waters a lot. Like I talk a lot on this show and mostly because I've been writing a book about this, about adult child and parent estrangement that I believe is like a fundamentally very different type of family estrangement that has its own unique. dynamics, but when you also get siblings and cousins and all these people involved, those are not

so cut and dry. There's a lot of different stuff going on there that I think is very different from adults and parents. Absolutely. Yeah, it is kind of that whole, where, you know, the narcissistic family cultures or enmeshment, you know, specifically because it is a group think mentality and people aren't allowed to think for themselves. And that was the very thing for us. we're like, once we tried to break out and have our own thoughts, just even about how we wanted to celebrate the holidays, that then was out of alignment and then the whole system views it as a threat. And so, you know, when you, again, you study family systems, you see that, that's what happens. You just now rock the system. They all need to try to get stabilization again. And

this is the way in which they do it. And all that does is create a greater divide. And it makes it so much harder to overcome because you get everybody involved and it gets so muddy that all it does is keeps pushing us further and further out where reconciliation can't happen. And it's like in healthy families, I think they allow for conflict. And it's very individual. It's like, all right, let's have those two. They're going to work it out and we're just going to let them do their thing. But we're going to keep loving each other despite their, you know, differences. And but that's not allowed in these types of family systems. It sounds like, and correct me if this is wrong, but it sounds like you guys weren't asking for consensus from the whole family to sort of align against this person as the enemy.

And so I'm curious if they would have been like, you know what, we see how you have that issues, but we're fine with him or we're going to continue to spend time with him, how that would have felt for you. If they maybe just saw your perspective. It would have been fine. But the thing that's also crazy that we haven't mentioned, that couple is now divorced. That person is out of the family. and yet estrangement still continues. You know, so it was just interesting that it was the straw that broke the camel's back, but it was just representative of something much bigger. It wasn't just the conflict between us and that individual.

It was that we were finding our own voice and our own path, and that was viewed as out of alignment with the system. So, you know, they took that opportunity to try to bully us, and minimize us and get us back into compliance, you know, with the system. They, it was very, I think, intentional on their part, hence the seven page letter and everybody copied on it. It was, we will make an example of you. We will publicly shame you.

And we will try our best to control you. And that was why my reaction was so, where I rejected it so much. I'm just like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, that is not the way this is going to work. because you're now taking away my agency. And that is the very thing that we're going to work so hard to protect. So, yeah, they could have maybe handled that a little bit differently. And we maybe would have still had some rough patches and could have figured it out.

But I also kind of think that this was moving in this direction anyways as we continued to connect dots. Because like I said, it wasn't just the individual. Ashley was identifying patterns in the family. And that was what the big threat was. Well, yeah, because that's the only way this would be able to like, flourish to this degree, right? But I guess do you think now that the only way that as the family stands right now that they would accept you all back in is sort of if you denounced the fact that you even did this, like saying like, we were wrong. We shouldn't have brought this up or gone against

you guys. Yes. And in fact, yeah, yes. I mean, my mom says to me all the time, you know, like, well. They don't talk all the time. But if we do talk, this is, I get this message. Ashley, we love you, we miss you, we miss your darling family. If you would just apologize, then you could come back. And I had, I had a sister right to me. You know, this was more toward the beginning. I had just said to her, I'm happy to have a conversation if you want. I think that I'm happy to take accountability for anything I have done. I'm sure I have done some hurtful things. But also, I think that you're thinking I've done some things that I don't believe I have. If we could have a conversation about it, I'd love it.

And she wrote back, I love that you think I'll have a conversation with you. I will never talk to you unless you come grovel to me. And she used that word. And this is one of my sisters who's just been, I've been the least close to her because she is actually just kind of mean. She's just, she is a mean girl. And I just, I stay away from her because she's just kind of always got. that you know a stick up her rear end is what I think yeah but there's just no tolerance for any

differing perspectives yes and there and there's no ability for them to come to the table and you know it's interesting because in my family I was the youngest but I was very docile I was very obedient I very much learned to keep the peace and be sweet and have everybody else's I was the accommodator of everybody else's needs. All of my siblings would constantly ask me, go get this, go get this and go get this and, you know, do the dishes. I would do whatever they asked me to do because I was just, that was me. And then I would be praised for being so sweet. And I got a lot from that. You know, it's really the only thing that I had in my family. But I was really viewed as not smart. I struggled in school beginning first grade when I went to school for full time.

I really struggled. They had my IQ tested and my mom came back. She's like, wow, Ashley, you're actually really smart. And I was like, I am. But I just really believed that I was not smart. And my dad is, you know, he went to the Mayo Clinic for his residency, which is very hard to do. He's kind of always giving the narrative that he's the smartest and you'll never be as smart as he is. And anyway, I don't need to go into all that. But I just kind of came into adulthood. And then I desperately did not want to marry somebody like that. I saw the other women in my family, Mary. And it actually, this is another story for a different day, but it took me a lot of bravery to choose John. Because he wasn't like the other guys. And everything in my family is about being cool. And I think I'm pretty cool.

He is the coolest ever. But, you know, the way that they're cool and they connect is they're very condescending toward their wives and the women of the family. And you've got to joke about it and you got to put people down. and, you know, and so anyway, nobody suspected me. So then I get, I, I married John and he gave me a lot of strength and power. Suddenly, you know, I'm asking him, like, do you think that I'm lazy?

That was one of the labels I had put on myself, not smart, not, not lazy. And I, I remember thinking two years and he must be so disappointed, like we've been married a while, he must know the truth of me now. I need to be brave enough to just ask him, because maybe it will cause me to. to want to work harder. Again, because we come from parents who are the hardest workers in the whole world, you'll never match up. So I was like, do you think I'm lazy? And he was like, no. Like, he was genuinely surprised. And I was like, you don't, you don't. Like, I'd never been told that I was not lazy. Like, somebody who needed a rest for 10 minutes during the day is lazy in my household, you know? So

I started to feel loved for who I was and not feel like I had to be perfect to, be enough. And that just gave me a ton of strength. And through our marriage, I got more and more strength. And I just went from being this submissive, docile child that nobody paid any attention to. I was dumb. I was not cool. I was not one of the pretty ones. You know, and suddenly I have this life that they're all starting to envy. And now I'm having confidence. And I have a voice. And that became very threatening to everyone. And so I think that they've been far more threatened by me and us and particularly John. And I've explained this so many times. I have the confidence and strength that I have because he has given me the confidence as my spouse.

I am an equal. But how did they interpret it? And what's their story? Oh, John controls Ashley. Ashley would never be strong enough to do this by yourself. Ashley would never do this because they see me as that weak, no opinions, my life existed to serve them and their needs. And so they just feel like there is no way that could be who she is. It's all John controlling her. And they see that as a bad thing. And the fact that I'm that I'm articulate. And when it comes to my family, I don't even let John speak. And he doesn't want to because I'm just like, you say one word and they're going to give you all the credit. And I, you know, like, they need to know that I can speak for myself, dang it. But yeah. I think that can happen in a lot of families where it's like the one that they thought

they had to worry the least about ends up becoming the truth teller, you know, to some degree later. But I think, you know, I think one of the most refreshing parts about your perspective that I would like you to to leave the listener with this at the end if you can is. if you have any advice for people who want to hold on to their faith while also reconciling how their faith has been weaponized against them in their own families? You know, what would you say to someone like that? We may both have different answers, but I would say to just lean into it. Like, to me, it's been the most exhilarating faith journey for us to be able to really understand, you know, what we believe. We talk a lot. There's going to be a ton of grief along the way and heartache and sadness.

But on the other end of it, when you can work through that, there is so much light and joy and happiness and authenticity and freedom that is beautiful. And it has been a journey of a lifetime already for us. And I think that, you know, in the community that we've created with Leave, then Cleave, not intentionally, kind of unintentionally, and here we are, but we see people thousands, millions. I mean, every month we're getting 3 million plus, you know, views on the content. There are so many more people out there like that than they realize.

And family systems and small, tight-knit religious communities want you to feel like you are the black sheep, and they want you to feel like you're the problem and that your counterculture or that you're going against the doctrine in, et cetera, but that is just, it is not the case. And that's one of the beauties of the internet and social media and podcasts is so that people can realize that they are not alone, you know, in this journey. And so stay open through that process and like listen to your heart because if it feels off, it likely is. You have that intuition that's built inside of you. And if you feel,

look at the fruits of the relationships. It's because Christ always talks about by their fruits you shall know them, look at those fruits and identify, is this relationship giving me anxiety and depression and, you know, all of these just negative thoughts? Or is it helping me be the very best version of myself? Well, look at that. And if the fruits of that is making you a shell of yourself and you know that you're living so far below your potential and you leave family events feeling like just miserable about yourself, pay attention to that. That is not. not what Christ is teaching. And if you dive in deeper, you're going to see that. And one of the best parts of Christianity is the example of Christ going to the temple and he flips the tables. And you've

probably seen that on social media. Christ flipped tables. And I'm like, I love that because he did. You know, when things were out of alignment, what did he do? He flipped it. And he just said, absolutely not. Not in my house. And we can follow his example in that regard to and flip those tables in our own lives. And the other side of it is just really joy beyond measure. Do we still miss these people? Do we still love them? Without question, we do. Do we hope someday for reconciliation? Yes, but we are pro-healthy relationships. That is what we're about. And that's what we think Christ is about, too. I love that. And I do have a different answer. But I'll go for it. I still agree with Johns. Again, I would just say, look, when it comes to religion, if done purely, if done in the most effective way, that relationship that you develop with Jesus Christ is extremely personal. And it should feel that way. And, you know, in religion, we talk a lot about pray. He's really there. And what's the

point if you pray and you don't really feel him. And I believe so often we don't feel him because what we're hearing is so different than what we're conditioned to feel or know is true, that we miss it. We miss the fact that he is actually trying to get through to us. And I'll never forget going to, we have temples in our religion that we go and worship in. And I remember going to the temple and it was in the most sacred room. And I knelt down and offered one of the most sincere prayers I had ever offered. And I just said, help me to see the truth. Where is the truth? Because this is right before that letter came. And they were blaming John and controlling and us for not being forgiving. And we were the self-righteous ones. Right. And part of me wondered, is that true? And I just remember going

and saying, that could be true, but also I see all of these patterns and this doesn't look right to me, but I don't even know how to hold the space for it all. I need you to tell me where is the truth. And you know, what shifted in that was my ability to receive it. And I didn't feel it in that moment in that prayer. But as I left that building and then in the days and weeks and months since, I feel, felt my life infused with truth and all these light bulbs went off and all this help. But I had to be brave enough to accept the messages. And I look back now and I mean, I still believe this. I was getting those messages. But we think that in Christianity that we should be keeping the peace that everybody should agree with what we're doing. Our ways are not God's ways. And he says that, right? And I remember,

And I remember one of my therapists saying the same one that said, everybody needs, they should read all of Jesus's words. She's like, you know, if you're walking down a really crowded road, you should turn around and start walking back the other way. And because Christianity is not following the crowd. We will, by design, get messages that will cause us to have to walk alone. And it is us and Jesus. But we're so conditioned to have, listen to what everybody else tells us what we're doing is right or wrong, you know?

And if we're accepted by our congregation or our families or whatever, then we must be right. That's actually not a follower of Jesus Christ. It is a very individual journey. And we will, we teach our kids this. I teach our kids this all the time. There are certain times in your life that you will be asked to do something that nobody else in you. your life understands. And those who really respect your agency and your journey with God will understand, we as your parents will understand that there will be times that you need to do

something for your own life that maybe even we don't agree with. But that's the journey with God. And so just to give people that confidence of just like, if you are a sincere seeker of the word of God and his guidance and direction, you love. literally have to have the bravery to go it alone. But if you will, you will feel you are not alone because his love and support and courage and the wisdom that he gives you is so remarkable. And it is so different than anything you've ever felt in this earthly life. And again, I was raised for 40 plus years in this religion. And I do feel like looking back, I can see where God has guided me. But when I consciously started following him and doing things,

that it was just like, okay, God, this is me and you. And I'm going to rely on you. Like, that is a different feeling than anything I've felt in my entire life. But even within Christianity, there's just, I think probably only a small percentage who have really been able to tap into that because it's scary. Yeah, absolutely. And I imagine that, sometimes being in a dysfunctional family really clouds your ability to hear that. And once you get some space, you can tap into that more. I think that's such a beautiful answer from both of you that people will definitely benefit from today. And I want to thank you both so much for coming on and for being here. I think you're able to give people a perspective and message that I am not able to.

And so I think a lot of people will get so much out of this conversation. So thank you again. for being here. Thank you for having us. And thanks for all the good work that you do. You helped us tremendously on our journey as well. You are one of my first accounts that I started following and I just have been a loyal follower for years now. So thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. I want to leave you with the line that stuck out to me most from this conversation. Healthy families don't need a common enemy to stay connected. If today brought up something for you, grief, recognition, guilt, relief, maybe all of those things at once. That makes sense. I think these are some of the hardest decisions a person can make. And faith often raises the stakes even higher or makes it feel like a

totally different conversation. Whatever side of this, you're on. I hope you heard something today that makes you feel a little less alone in it. And you can always honor someone and still refuse to keep calling dysfunction family loyalty. Thank you so much for listening to calling home today. Please don't forget to like, subscribe, leave us a review, comment on the episode. I read all of them. I love hearing from you guys. And I will be back on Thursday with another Q&A episode. Thanks, everyone. The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice, or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship between

you and Calling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home terms of service linked in the show notes below.