CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - When Parents Give You The Silent Treatment with Abbey Williams

Episode Date: April 2, 2024

This week on the Calling Home Podcast, Whitney Goodman speaks with therapist Abbey Williams. They discuss her estrangement from her mother due to the latter's use of the silent treatment as a form of discipline. Williams explains that this behavior, often driven by unprocessed trauma, emotional immaturity, shame, or a desire for control, can be as damaging as physical abuse. Despite the pain of estrangement, Williams has used her experience to better parent her own children and break the generational cycle of dysfunction.  To learn more about Abbey Williams and her Healing Book Club, Estranged Mother Support Group, 1-on-1 coaching and more follow her on Instagram at @youthemother.   Visit Mindhappy.com and use HOME15 for 15% off first monthly subscription! Have a question for Whitney? Call Home at 866-225-5466.  Join Whitney’s Family Cycle Breakers Club for further support and discussion on family dynamics at CallingHome.co. Follow the Calling Home community on Instagram or TikTok.  Follow Whitney Goodman on Instagram or TikTok.  The Calling Home podcast is not engaged in providing therapy services, mental health advice or other medical advice or services, is not a substitute for advice from a qualified healthcare provider, and does not create any therapist-patient or other treatment relationship between you and Calling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home’s Terms of Service. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Your summer ritual is ready at Starbucks. My guest today is Abby Williams, a therapist and advocate for those affected by estrangement who's here to share the story behind her turbulent relationship with her mother that ultimately led to their current estrangement. I'm Whitney Goodman. Welcome to the Calling Home podcast. I'm glad you're here. One of the threads we pull out in this conversation today that I don't think we've really covered in depth on the podcast is the silent treatment. There's plenty of reasons why someone may behave in this way, including a lack of emotional maturity, shame, guilt, or to assert power

over the person on the receiving end. Nonetheless, this is a very damaging behavior, especially when it's coming from a parent. Abby is very open about her relationship with her mother. and how she is still in the process of healing, which is incredibly difficult without a repair or apology. Anyone who's going through a similar situation would get that. What I think is especially worth highlighting, though, is that through Abby's experience with her mother, she is learning how to better parent her own children and is on the path to breaking the generational cycle that's been passed down through her family, so there's a lot to take from this conversation. Let's get into it.

I'd love if you could just start us off by, you know, sharing some of your story. And what led you to talk about this publicly and also, like, work in this space? I knew I wanted to work in this space in high school before I was no contact, before I was estranged, before I even knew that that's where I would end up. I remember saying in my first psychology class in high school, I want to go on and pursue being a therapist. and I want to help little girls like me. And I did start my career working with youth. I came from a home where there was addiction and just a lot of complicated things going on in the home surrounding that. I didn't really know back then my dad was the one that struggled with addiction in my childhood.

And I didn't, I always viewed my mom as, I don't know, I found myself in a parentified role and being her protector, being her confidant, being her best friend. And so she was never the problem parent when I was young. I thought I was going to be working with kids who came from addiction in the home. And then that evolved, right? As I went through my teen years and into my early adult years, I started noticing some things in my relationship with my mother. that relationship became more and more complicated, kind of the more independence I was gaining, the more I was becoming my own person, and things were really changing for us.

My parents divorced when I was a senior in high school, and I think during that time, it was really interesting to kind of watch the changes shift from her, my dad being the bad guy and the black sheep and the scapegoat of our family to now I was. now I was the one who is I've always been I think the role in my family of like the truth teller and so you know as my dad's you know divorcing the family and he's getting out now I am the problem for telling any truth or pointing out hey this isn't right how you're treating these people this isn't right but this is going on right and so I was very much scapegoated in that And so the behavior that my mom likes to use as a form of discipline is the silence treatment.

So that was going on pretty much from high school on. And I think that really kind of shaped my work as I evolved as a clinician. You know, I came into the field working with youth and adolescents, at-risk youth. I was doing community-based mental health. A lot of my kids were in the foster care system. And I was working a lot with younger people from dysfunctional family systems. And while, you know, I don't think that my family had some of these big T traumas, big T abuse traumas, there was definitely dysfunctional family stuff going on in my family of origin home.

And, you know, then I go on to grad school. I get my master's. They become a therapist. And I think I transitioned more to working with adult women. Gosh, is it like 10 years ago now? That makes me feel so old when you say stuff like that. I know. You're like, I'm not that old 10 years ago.

I feel like I just graduated from high school sometimes. Right. Like, I'm not as old. Same. So, you know, I transitioned to working with adult women and talking about it on a platform. My estrangement was a long. time coming. I was a young single mother. I got pregnant

with my first child at 21 years old. I had them when I was 21 years old. I was halfway through my bachelor's degree. I finished my bachelor's degree, went on to grad school by myself. I had no support from my family of origin to do so and was very much shamed for being

in the position that I was in. And I look back and I've talked about this on another podcast before with Dr. Tracy. And I was telling her, I was like, you know, I think that is when I should have gone no contact or limited contact or started working on boundaries. Like, that was such a hard time for me with my mom just, like, kind of piling on. And then, like, watching kind of how everything played out later, I wish I would

have nipped it in the butt back then. And she very lovingly was like, you know, you just weren't in the space to do that back then. And I totally agree. You know, I was financially not stable. I was very young and just kind of trying to survive and get through my education. So I did. I went to grad school as a single mom. I met my husband. We're married. Have three more children. And it wasn't until I was secure in my relationship with my husband. I have a very supportive and loving partner. We're financially stable. You know, kind of all these other things were settled. And then when I was pregnant with my fourth. There was another spell of the silent treatment. And the things like that happen with my mother is sometimes they're over big things and you know what the silent

treatment is over, you know, like getting pregnant at 21 years old. She didn't talk to me for my whole first trimester. But then other times you have no idea. You're like, what am I being punished for? And that like really throws you. And so I was going through one of those in my pregnancy with my fourth child and it was impacting my children at this time and so that's when you know I don't know if I would have ever had the courage to take some of the steps that I did had it not been directly impacting my children once like it ignited my mama bear side then I was like okay we need to make some changes so we went uh no contact almost five years ago now and that first year and a half was very dark, very scary, it looked like depression.

I just feel like the bottom fell out from under me. You know, I had, I was postpartum. I'm estranged. I have no family support that I was really getting a lot of support anyway. But, you know, it just felt very loud and heavy. It was the beginning of the pandemic and everything all at once was just too much for me. So I spent about a year and a half just in a really not great space. I felt so alone like I was the only person in the world going through this.

I think that the internet, you know, that's kind of when TikTok became really big was the beginning of the pandemic. More clinicians joined Instagram and really started building their platforms. So at the beginning of my estrangement journey, nobody was talking about this on the internet. I didn't have anybody to plug into. I didn't see anybody else talking about this. I think except for like the holistic psychologist, I didn't see a single person talking about this functional family stuff. And so it was just super isolating, lonely.

And I knew then when I am out of the dark and heavy part of this, this is going to be my passion is to help these women that are in these spaces find healing and find light on the other side. you know and so i have just really thrown myself into that arena of estrangement um just because i know you know and and i specifically choose clinicians for myself my own therapist is no contact with her mother you know and i think that it's just such a a unique place to be in that it's hard to really wrap your head around it unless you've been through it you know i think that there's only like so much that our educations can provide us in some of these arenas.

You know, and I just think that especially in this arena and any relational trauma that you are going through, community is the most important part of your healing. Because I'm so excited that you have your membership now, Whitney, and, you know, like those spaces that people are creating for people to come and plug into. and be in a community and know that you're not the only person going through this and there are healthy relationships out there. They're so important. And so I've just really dedicated my space to that and I have created support groups over on my page as well. And we did a mother wound retreat last year. There's going to be one this year. I saw that. That's amazing. Yeah. So, you know,

I think me putting words to some of my own feelings and some of my own experiences in the comments sections, it's like, yes, I had no idea how to explain it, but that's exactly how I feel. And it's so bittersweet to see those things, you know, because there's a part of me that like I also need that community and I also need some of that for my healing. And I'm just so sad that there's so many of us. I'm so sad that there's anybody else that knows this pain because it is brutal. It's brutal. Yeah. You talked about, you know, the silent treatment with your mom and I screenshot it at a post of yours that you had that was probably, I think maybe when you were pregnant with your fourth child talking about the silent treatment. And I'm

wondering if you can describe the cycle that you see happening with the silent treatment and maybe why that happens in these types of relationships. Yeah. Yeah. I'm wondering. I, I think that there's probably a lot of different reasons, but I think it's just unprocessed, unheeled trauma. I know for my own experience, my mother had a horrible childhood, a horrible experience with her own parents, a lot of pain and hurt that she's carrying around that has not been processed, healed, dealt with. And, you know, what we don't heal, we repeat.

and that just is what it is. It's not fair, you know, and it sucks being the one that has to pick it up and say, okay, it ends with me. I'm going to heal this. I'm not going to do this again, right? It is the hardest work I've ever done with my four children being that person, you know, because it is so easy and it's so ingrained on us to repeat those things. I can hear my mother come out of my own mouth sometimes and you're like, what? That is such a mind of. You're like, you know better. You know what this feels like. And still that happens. You know, so I do have like so much compassion for some of the, you know, the parents of adult children that are going through this, their side. And I think that there's a lot of compassion and understanding. And you can still choose, you know, that it's not

healthy for you. And so there can be the both. But the silent treatment, you know, if you research it, has the same impacts on your brain as physical abuse, you know, these emotional mental abuse are just as damaging. And, you know, and I think that people don't see it or believe you as much, you know, it's like, oh, well, there wasn't a physical thing that happened. I didn't see you come into school with a black eye. You know, you didn't have X, Y, Z happening, you know, fill in the blank, whatever. You know, and so I think that some of these invisible abuses just go under the radar. And it's like, oh, it wasn't that bad. And that's kind of the, that's a lot of the language I know I've received.

And I know a lot of the women that I've worked with have received is it wasn't that bad. You're twisting things. You're so dramatic. You're so sensitive. You know, and it was that bad. It makes, like, for me, like, my nervous system is just, like, exploding when I'm in that. I can not function. I am, like, just, you know, treading water and trying not to drown, you know? And I can't parent and be doing that at the same time. And that's, it broke me. And so that's why we are no contact, you know?

And I sent a message that said, hey, I can't be in a relationship where there is this behavior happening. and you'll be shocked to know, there was no response. The silent treatment just continues, right? Yeah. But I think that, you know, it's a lot of emotional immaturity. I think it's shame-driven, and I don't think it needs to be like that, but I do understand it. You know, I understand the parents right now who have adult children,

the boomer generation, whatever generation, that just hear, you know, hey, you did blank and it had this kind of impact on me. And they hear it and it's like, oh, I guess I just wasn't a good parent. I guess I just didn't do it good enough, you know? And it's immediately like defensive. And I understand it a little bit where it's just like, I can't even look in the mirror at that and touch that shame because it's too painful. And I don't think that there's a single one of us,

Maybe there is, but none that I've come across that expected their parents to be the perfect parent. 100%. You know, it's okay that you miss the mark. I have four kids. I'm going to miss lots of marks. They are four very different people. 100%.

Miss the mark every day. There's just no way. There's no way. They are going to come to me in their adulthood and say, remember like this, that was nuts. Remember when you used to do that? That was crazy, right? They're going to say something. And I hope that in those, that stage of my life, I'm able to say, yeah, I could see how that impacted

you like that. And that's it. Like that's period. The end, like literally all these people that are in this bucket need is an acknowledgment. And I'm sorry, you know, a changed behavior with an apology is a real apology. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, let's go to therapy together.

Hey, let's talk about it. And it doesn't have to be this shaming, hey, you're a god-awful person because you were using the silent treatment with me when you didn't know how to have hard conversations, when you didn't know how to feel your hard feelings. You know, I think in my experience, so many adult children would, let's say we're talking about the silent treatment. If a parent said, you know what, I did use the silent treatment. And I realized, like, I couldn't have those conversations with you.

I had no idea how to navigate them. And now I'm reading this book or I've been watching these videos and I'm trying to learn how to do that. And I'm not going to be great at it at first, but can we try to do it together? My whole life would be different. Yeah. There's something I want to go back to that you were saying about the silent treatment because I really agree with you that it's a lack of skills, right, is ultimately what it is. But there's something so insidious. about it for anybody listening who's been on the receiving end of that, that I find that it allows the person giving the silent treatment to say, well, I didn't do anything to you. I didn't say anything mean. I wasn't even talking to you. I wasn't even around you. You could have called me

any time, you know, almost like the ball was in your court during the silent treatment. And so I find that to be so challenging because the person is kind of able to claim, innocence by way of like not uttering a word and almost put it on you of like, well, you could have picked up the phone and said you're sorry and you didn't. And so it's this really tricky thing that's almost harder to navigate than if they would have called you and just screamed at you. Yes, I agree. Because then you could be like, oh, well, you yelled at me and you have this concrete evidence. You could record it and show it to people, you know, that it's really hard. I don't know if that was your experience. It's absolutely my experience. And I think that, you know,

whether you're a silent treatment or, you know, some of the other forms of abuse that have led you to estrangement, the self gaslighting is so real, right? And it's just like, oh, like, maybe I am crazy. Maybe it wasn't that bad, you know? And you start kind of feeling like that, I think, especially with some of these things where you don't have things to go back to and say, oh, no, She said this, this, and this, like, that is a hard no, whatever. Like, no, I sent her the soccer schedule and she just refused to come, you know? And some people are like, oh, well, so what? That she didn't come to a couple of games.

Well, that really hurt my kid. And that's not like her. When we're on good terms, she's coming. And when she's punishing me, she's punishing my children. But I agree. And I think that my experience with my mother and my siblings experience, with my mother is night and day different. And so they have never received the silent treatment from her. And so for me to say these things, like they can't wrap their head around

what that means, what that feels like. And so it's been exactly some of those responses. Well, you know, the phone works both ways. Why don't you pick up the phone? I'm like, I don't have anything to apologize for right now. You know, and like, and there's definitely, been lots of times when I do, you know? We're all messy humans and I do, right? And there's been a lot of times when I didn't and I still would pick up the phone and like beg you to just talk to me, forgive me, like let's squash this because my nervous system cannot, right? Right. Just to make the silence stop. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Which is ultimately what that person's hoping for, right? Like that you will cave. Yeah. It's the control, you know. Yeah.

So it just, it feels horrible being on that receiving, and it's like torturous. It's awful. Mind Happy is a lifestyle and wellness brand centered on thoughtful creativity to help people craft fulfilling moments, connections, and self-care rituals through purposeful play. Visit MindHapy.com and use the code Home 15. That's H-O-M-E-1-5 for 15% off your first monthly subscription. When people are listening to this episode, it's coming out in April, right now in January inside of calling home, we're talking about adult sibling relationships. And I think what you just brought up and that content will still always be on the site for anyone hearing this now. But it's very tricky when your parent has a different reaction to you

than your siblings. And I think that that can make you feel even more like it's something with me. It's something I'm doing wrong. And so I'm wondering if you can speak to like how that impacted you. Yeah. I mean, it's still impacting me. Of course. You know, it's like, it's something that I work on in therapy every week is like, what is the matter with me to my core? And I've literally had therapy sessions where I'm like begging my therapist to just tell me that it is me, that I have some scary diagnosis that I need to fix. And, you know, I can just claim full responsibility. And I've sat with countless women who also feel like that, right? I just wish it was me so that I could fix it and I could have a family.

You know, I think that there's this belief, the people who go estranged, like it's trendy right now because it's being talked about on the internet. And, you know, this whole generation is just like waking up on a Tuesday and saying, you know what, I don't want family. And that is never how it goes. And so, you know, I think that the different things like within my own family and watching, especially my sister, but I think my mother is brilliant, you know, and I look back and I watch how some of like the triangulation was at play, my whole childhood, how my relationships

with my siblings were strategically set up and things that she would say to one sibling about the other and then something else to that sibling so that there was kind of like this beef between the siblings and that there wasn't closeness. But I've heard from her mouth my whole life that my sister's just easier than me. And that makes you be like, okay, what is like so hard about me, right? Why am I so hard? What is so hard to love about me? I have always been loved with conditions where I've watched my other siblings not go through that. You know, they are unconditionally loved. When I go through heart, when I've gone through really hard, things in my life. I get the silent treatment when they go through hard things in their life.

She is there to financially bail them out, physically bail them out, whatever. And it is such a mind off of just, I don't want to be the strong one. You know, and it's hard being that all the time. I just, I need support. I need somebody to hold me and listen to me and help me, you know, and I've needed that. And I've never, I was never given that. And so I was, I'm the oldest. So I was the one that had to bail myself out, bail other people out, be there for everybody else. I was the fixer in my family. I was the protector. And then on the other side, when I went no contact, I was left by myself. And the mind F of that of just, I would have never done that to you and what is so bad about me that nobody stands by me. It makes you feel like

nobody ever knew you, you know? And I think, and that's like our core fundamental needs as humans. It's just to feel seen, to feel known, to belong, right? And when you don't have that with the people that you come from, it goes against our entire biology, right? And so you're just our left feeling, what is the matter with me, you know, and healing that on the other side is so hard. But we do do that in healthy, loving relationships where you are loved unconditionally, you know, and you can be that for yourself. But it is hard and heavy work. It is. So, you know, this month inside of our calling home community, we're talking a lot about like when a parent won't apologize. And I'm wondering if there was a time during your path, like,

towards estrangement, that you went to your mom looking for an apology and how that went for you. Well, lots of times. Yeah. So I would say like the incident happened, um, August of 20, 2019. I attempted in September. I was getting scared about the upcoming holidays and things aren't resolving. It's been months. What's going on? I'm in my final pregnancy. Please don't miss it. And that's like, hold. And I said, hey, this is hurting my children. This is my last pregnancy. And I begged. I was literally, I felt like, I felt like a battered woman just like begging you to love me and be in a relationship with me. And I promise like I'll be better or, you know, whatever, right? And it was just met with, no, I'm just not ready. And then I wasn't invited to Thanksgiving, which I didn't know that

my mother was hosting. I had a cousin that contacted me like day of. I was like, oh, by the way, I'm going to your mom's house. And I'm like, cool. So that Thanksgiving was really hard. She did, the only time she has reached out to me in the past five years was that Christmas. She did call me to let me know I was not invited. And then I reached out that following May, I realized my daughters were two and one at the time that we went no contact. So in May, my oldest daughter, who was then three, came to me, and I realized that she didn't remember who my mom was. And that was like a gut punch.

And so I called that day. And I was like, hey, like, this is really messed up that, like, this is going on. I don't want my kids to not know who my mother is. You know, how do we move past this? My sister's freaking out that her family is going to be all messed up whenever she gets married and has kids. That's a whole separate conversation. And, you know, what do we do?

And that it was met again with, this is all you. You have done this whole thing. And there was no like, yeah, let's fix this. You know, it was just a complete blame. And I had just like, again, like sobbed on the phone. got off the phone. I've written letters. I've written an email in about two years and she sent me a birthday card to let me know that she doesn't read any of the things that I send. So I think she's just very not receptive to a repair unless it's me just swallowing it and taking full

responsibility. There's been a lot of intentional work to pit people against each other and to keep people on sides. I think that now, five years in and lots of, you know, very intentional moves, I also don't see any way back. You know, there's just like a lot of unforgivable things that have happened in the past five years that I don't, I don't know like how I would respond at this point if there was a phone call or a, hey, let's, let's repair this now. I'm like, I don't know how I, I don't know how I would respond. I don't know how I would move past some of those things. But I think, you know, I think that there's a lot of us that will never get the acknowledgement or the apology that we deserve, that we need. And while I don't

think that there would ever be repair, I do still need and want that apology or acknowledgement. Yeah, the recognition, you know, that like this has been hard. The recognition of, you know, just like, hey, it's really hard. I think now also being a mother of four and looking at my four children. And like at the beginning of my estrangement journey, I would, you know, when I was in the dark and scary season, I would lay in bed with my husband and just like sob and say, think of the worst thing that your kid could do, the worst of the worst. Could you walk away from them? Could you not talk to them again? Like I don't, I could not live in a world where I don't talk my children. There's nothing I wouldn't do to fix that relationship, to change, to grow,

to meet your boundaries, to listen. I just, like, can't fathom it. I can't wrap my head around it. Right, right. And I apologize to my kids every day. I don't know. At least one of them a day, probably. You know, I feel like I'm constantly like, okay, that wasn't my greatest moment. I'm sorry, I lost my shit when we're trying to get out the door. Yeah, I apologize to my two-year-olds. There's lots of different things, you know? My oldest, he's now 13, and that's like a whole different ballgame, and I'm constantly, like, checking in. And like, and I'm very upfront with him because I feel like this is like the age where things really started getting rocky in my relationship with my mother. And so I've said, you know, this is my first time doing this. This is my first time

parenting a teenager, if for some reason, like, something that I'm doing or saying is not sitting well, please come to me. Please just tell me, hey, the way that you're approaching my school, my grades, or, you know, my girlfriend, you know, the things that you're saying, they make me feel blank and I don't like it. Like, I will always listen to that. But I just think that there's kind of like going back to the shame, the unable to like touch it. I think that that's where a lot of us are just not going to get the apology or the recognition or the acknowledgement that we need, which makes for not a repair. And that's really sucky. It is. I think there's a few things that you just said that I really want to like point out

because I think they're super important for anybody listening is that this was not like an overnight decision, you know, and that's, I think that's what I see a lot of in the discourse lately, especially because people are coming to the internet at the end of their journey, right? And they're saying, I'm estranged for my parent, whatever. And we don't have, nor are we entitled to all the context that led up to that decision. And I find people being really judgmental and like, I need all the facts and I need to determine, You know, if you were abused enough in my line of thinking to cut your parent off. And so I think for people listening, you can really hear the thoughtfulness, like, in your voice and all the steps that you took to get to this point.

The other thing that I think is really important here is that most people want to, like, pick a person who initiated the estrangement, right? And in this situation, they might say, you know, you, Abby, you did the estrangement. But your mom also kind of chose this in a lot of ways. I know. That's a mind flag for me, Whitney. I'm like, I don't even know how I would answer that question. Right. I think we have to look at when people don't want to take accountability, when they don't want to apologize, they don't want to do the work. They are also choosing estrangement. It is not just the person who writes the letter or makes the call or says, I don't want to have you in my life. You know, the silent treatment is a way of saying that, deciding not to, like fix your shit for lack of a better word is a way of saying that. So that's important. And then the other thing I think that you just pointed out is the way that you're handling your relationships with your children differently. I recently came across a parent online who was recording a video and they were speaking about me in the video and there were a couple of comments in the comment section that were like, oh, I can't wait till Whitney's kids grow up and they don't talk to her

anymore. And you know, it's this very like spiteful behavior. And I'm like, yeah, gosh, you know, if my kids weren't speaking to me, I just would take a different approach to it. And I would want to know why and I would want to talk to them about it and I would investigate it and I would take some ownership of whatever I did to get us to that point, even if it wasn't 100% me, I still think as a parent, like I always have to be the leader in that. And I think you checking in with your 13 year old is a perfect example of laying the great. ground work so that when your kid is 35 and comes to you, this isn't the first time you're having that conversation. And that's so important. I mean, he'll even like call me out when we

have like important conversations. We just had one like last weekend where there was like some of his behavior and I came to him like, what, why? Yeah. What is going on here? And in that conversation, you know, he was kind of explaining something and it wasn't. And it wasn't. wasn't like an acceptable answer for me in the moment. I was like, uh, no. You know, and I like kind of rolled over him. And he called me out on it. Like, listen, I'm sitting here telling you why this is happening that this was my feeling and you're sitting here telling me like, no, it wasn't. That's not your feeling. And I had to like take some steps back and be like, you know what? You're right. I did do that. And I'm sorry. Okay. Let's like rewind and go back,

you know. And so I think that like these are really important things to be teaching our kids. I think, you know, there was like a mindset maybe previously in generations that these kind of conversations were maybe disrespectful, that you can't stand up to your parent and say, hey, you just rolled over my emotions and my feelings. You know, that didn't feel good. What the heck? You know, and then you're like, don't talk to your parent like that, you know. And that can feel uncomfortable for us because we weren't allowed to do those kind of things. We weren't allowed to have conversations with our parents like that. And so it's going to take like some practice and some getting used to for ourselves

because there are going to be parts of yourself that are like, no, shut this down. That's not safe. This isn't allowed. And there are going to be parts of you like that that do come up. And I hope that we do have that these dialogues with our kids where they do feel comfortable to challenge us so that we can be growing. You know what I mean? It's so hard. Yeah, I think the foundation of what you're saying really comes back to the fact that like I believe and I can see that you kind of believe this too that we could dedicate our lives to

this subject, right? And study it and be so aware of it and still not be perfect parents for each specific child. And there is going to come in many days throughout my life as a parent and you're dealing with those now. Mine just doesn't have the vocabulary as much yet to say like, you know, I didn't like this or that wasn't right. And I think when you already have this inner knowing of like that doesn't make me a bad mom, my ability to sit with my child and talk about it and work through it is what makes you a good mom. It becomes a lot easier. And I feel sad for parents who feel like they had to be perfect. And so whenever their kid says something to them, it brings up that shame that you started talking about in the

beginning of the episode of like, now I'm a failure, I'm a bad parent, and I need to run away from this because I can't hold both those feelings at once. And so I think sometimes parents feel like I had to be perfect. You're holding me to unreasonable standards. And you and I are kind of both saying in different ways, like, no, you're going to mess up. Like you're actually not perfect. It's just how we handle that imperfection that makes the relationship good. Yeah, I know. I think like when I talk about like some of the mother wound stuff on my platform, I'm like, I don't believe that there's going to be a human on this planet that doesn't have

some version of a mother wound, some version of a father wound. So no matter how perfect and great your parents were and how well-intentioned, you're going to have some kind of something that you're unlearning or undoing or healing from in your adulthood, you know, that you're gaining some self-awareness around. Hey, I think I do this because of this and I need to not do that so much, you know? And like, your worth isn't tied to your productivity. That's mine. I'm like chronic overfunctioner. And, you know, it's served me really well in lots of areas in my life. And I need to work on not attaching my worth there. I need to work on better balance. I need to work on caring for me and that my needs matter. You know, for

others, it might be the people pleasing, the perfectionism, you know, lots of different things that we pick up in our childhood. And I can like see in some of my kids some of their things that they do, you know, and okay, how can I help you and how can I make sure that this isn't going to continue on, you know? Being a parent is the hardest job. It's such a hard role. And it is just an incredible responsibility that you have taken on for the rest of your life, you know? And I think we can either rise to the occasion and be in it and go on the roller coaster of the upskirts. I have the up and downs or we can choose to just be like, oh, it's everybody else and it's not me and I'm just great. And I have nothing to work on. And I get why people choose that because being over here is

hard. 100%. I mean, sometimes I think it would be easier. I kind of get it. Yeah. Just to be like, I'm never the problem. Yeah, I'm never the problem. I have no work. My therapy bill would be zero and that would be nice. You know, it would be great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I wouldn't have the connections that I do with my children. I wouldn't have some of the inner piece that I do. While there's a lot of hard stuff that I carry around every day and healing from some of the dysfunctional family stuff is really hard and heavy, estrangement is like, I call it like cutting off your arm.

You know, you have to relearn your whole life. How am I going to live life without my arm? You have like, you know, people who have had amputations have like, the phantom feeling you know you have a lot of grief associated i wish i had i wish things were different you know it's so hard it's so hard and there is opportunities for peace and healing and light and play um it is beautiful when you aren't consumed in the dysfunction That's a great way to wrap up this conversation, I think. Leave everyone with a little bit of hope. There is some hope. It is hard. So make sure you're like in your communities and in your help and

yes. Do the things because it's hard. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Abby, for sharing your story and advice and tips and everything with us today. I think, this episode is going to be extremely helpful for a lot of people. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for listening. I loved having that conversation with Abby. Before I let you go, I wanted to just remind you that this month inside the calling home community, we are talking about adult children with parents who will not apologize. And new content is going to be added every Monday this month, as well as six groups with me. You can join the Family Cycle Breakers Club at Callinghome.co, and I hope to see you there.

advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist patient or other treatment relationship between you and Calling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see Calling Home's terms of service linked in the show notes below.