CALLING HOME with Whitney Goodman, LMFT - Will You Regret Having Children? with Amanda White

Episode Date: April 1, 2025

With that Chappell Roan clip on Call Her Daddy going viral, this episode couldn't be more timely. I sat down with Amanda White, the author of Fence Sitter and we talk about motherhood, deciding to have children, regret, and the paradox of joy and pain in parenthood. This episode is great for anyone considering having a child or struggling with early parenthood. Join The Family Cyclebreakers Club: www.callinghome.co/join Have a question for Whitney? Call in and leave a voicemail for the show at 866-225-5466. Follow Whitney on Instagram: www.instagram.com/sitwithwhit Subscribe to Whitney's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@whitneygoodmanlmft Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you're with Amex Platinum, you get access to exclusive dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best tapas in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca. www.ca.com. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to The Calling on Podcast.

I'm super excited for this episode today because I am joined by my friend and colleague, Amanda White. Amanda is known as Therapy for Women on Instagram. She also does the nuance-needed podcast, and she has a therapy practice with therapists in, like, 48 states. You have listened to her on our two-parts. episode series with her and her co-host Sam, where we talked about adult child and parent estrangement. And this time of having her back to talk about being a fence sitter and deciding whether you want to have children. Amanda and I discuss all the different things that can come up when you are deciding to have children, especially in the wake of

childhood trauma or family dysfunction. We talk about our own processes to deciding to have children and all the different things that Amanda went through in trying to make this decision. So if you are on the fence or if you're parenting in the wake of experiencing family dysfunction or childhood trauma, I think you will really enjoy this episode. And it's a perfect compliment to everything we are discussing at calling home this month inside the Family Cycle Breakers Club. Let's go ahead and dive into the interview. I was up with my youngest last year from the like 4 a.m. until I had to get up. I was just like, what are the irony? Yeah. You're going to have this conversation when I'm so tired from my own child.

Yeah. And it's funny, but it's so crazy over the last couple of weeks I have been getting like inundated with videos of people. I don't know if you've seen this. Pushing back on like how some child-free people talk about not having kids. Yeah, I have. I don't know if I've seen the specific ones, but I have seen that like rhetoric on TikTok and stuff like that. Yeah, it's so interesting because that always like kind of, I mean, we feel kind of weird when people like referring to kids as like crotch goblins.

Yes. It's going to ruin my body and like, what's the person with the list? You know, you see all this stuff. Yes. And I imagine that that gets really, like, mixed up in the decision to not have children. And I see them as, like, totally different groups. I don't know if that brings true to you as well. Yeah, well, what I think about, too, is, and I've written stuff about this, is, like,

there is also a difference between not liking children and not wanting to be a parent. And you can, like, those are all, right? They can, it's like four columns, right? you can like not like children really and want to have a child, which was like honestly like I don't love kids. Yeah. Like I just don't. But I wanted to have a child. You can not like kids and not want to have a child. Yeah. You can love kids and not want to have a child. And you can love kids and want a child. And I think people really collapse whether like your love or desire of kids in general with becoming a parent. And I think those are two separate things.

That's so true. That's so true. Can you talk about the term fence sitter a little bit? I love that term and what it means to you and why you use it. I don't even know. I mean, it has become more popular and it's become kind of like a thing that I think people are talking about. But yeah, I think I came up with it or I didn't come up with it. I use the term because there's actually a really incredible Reddit thread. called Fence Sitting that is about this. And I spent a lot of time on that Reddit thread. And I also, you know, spent a lot of time on regretful parents Reddit and other very, you know, intense Reddit threads as well. But what I really loved about that thread specifically is it was very encouraging compared to other Reddit threads.

You know, shreddit can be a, can be a mind for sure. But it was one of the only places where I saw people who, regardless of what decision they made, came back to the thread and would like update people. And I was so comforted by that that that was kind of my whole idea of creating the substack was what I really wanted when I was struggling was I feel like all of social media, again, is so polarized. It is people who refer to kids as crotch cobblins and don't like kids and are really intense about being child-free, which we need that content. We need people to talk about how much they love their life because it is a different, you know, it's against the grain.

But when I was trying to decide, I felt like everyone knew. And there's that whole rhetoric of if you're not 100% sure, you should never do it. So what I really wanted was a place to explore the ambivalence, a place to talk about it, and also a place where I wanted to know that people who had questioned it and then had a child, like I wanted to hear from them because that that seems really interesting to me. And I wanted to kind of, when I was on the other side of it, the biggest question that coming up for me was like, how do you not regret it? How are you not, you, like, so much content people seem miserable. So how are you okay with, like, staying up all night? Right. And I didn't, you know, it's, I don't think you can fully understand it until you do it. But this is sort of my way of, like, reconciling this past version of myself and trying to help people, you know, bridge the gap, essentially.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It is so hard to understand the feeling. I mean, I know last night or this morning when I was up at like 4 a.m. because my baby has like two massive teeth coming in at the same time. I'm like, I want to be in bed. I want to be sleeping. I'm tired. And I also have this thought going through my head when I'm looking at him like, oh, I'm going to miss this. It's like a really weird, really weird thing of like, oh, I might never get to do this again. And I don't know that I would have ever fully understood. I hate telling people that they can't understand things until they do it. But this is one of those things that for me personally, I couldn't have understood it. And I don't know if that plays into the decision making you think, just like not knowing what it's going to feel like. Absolutely.

I think the biggest thing, and I relate to that so much, I think one of the biggest things about, you know, parenthood that I couldn't consent. was how much I would feel two separate things at the exact same time at such intensity of like you were talking like this closeness and desire for separation at the same time. And I think what's really hard when you're trying to make the decision is you can't imagine the like the reason, right, you're fine with getting up at four in the morning or the reason I talked recently about how, you know, my Spotify, I'm sure this year is going to be overtaken by Frozen. Oh, yeah, my little Anna. And that when I used to think about it, that was literally something that I was like,

ugh, I never. Like, that sounds horrible. But what is missing when you're, when you don't have a child yet, is the context of the intense love for your child. And the context of, right, when our Spotify wraps come out next year, we will also have memories attached to those songs, which is so different than just seeing someone else's Spotify wrapped, you know, with all of these songs and being like, that sounds awful that you listen to those songs over and over again because you don't have the memory of the adorable

way your child sang those songs or the great moments you had dancing in the kitchen or the themed birthday cake you had for them or whatever. And that's really, I think, what's missing you just you don't have that context for that love and I think it's it is just so hard to imagine unless I think you are really close to a child in your life yeah what that will be like like that shocked me more more than anything was just how much I love my kid mm-hmm yeah it's so interesting how you feel that and you're like okay this is definitely different than something I've felt in another context. But I want to hear more about, like, what are you think or what do you know are some of the biggest worries and anxieties that people have

about that transition? I think one of the biggest ones is that people are really afraid of regretting, having a child. That was something I also really related to. And I think with social media and even TikTok, I don't know if you've seen this channel, there's a woman who kind shares anonymous stories from people. I have seen that of like regretful parents. Yes. Yes. And even just we've been talking more about regretful parents. There was like a time article that came out last year interviewing regretful parents. And I think it's really hard to talk about regret. And even there was also a TikTok that went viral. I think a month or two ago of a woman was very newly postpart. And she was just like crying, talking about, she was kind of saying like,

you don't have to do this. You don't have to have a child. I wish I, like, I wanted this so bad. I thought this would complete me. It's so intense. Like, and kind of saying telling people, you don't have to do this. You can want more for your life, essentially. Yeah. I think I remember seeing that and feeling like, oh, I hope this woman is okay because I felt, I think I've said this to you before. Like, I have felt that where I was like, oh my God, did I blow up my life? Like, yeah. I mean, I was dealing with post-partum depression, I'd be like, I want to get in my car and I want to drive away and I never want to see any of you again. And the biggest part about that is like, that feeling ends for a lot of people. And it's very hormonally driven and all of that, that it's hard to see that in the moment, though.

And you could take that as a sign of regret for sure. Exactly. And I think that's the hard thing about some of these stories or even on Reddit, like the regretful parents read it. What I think about a lot and I wish we would do. talk about is you can feel regret in a moment. And that doesn't mean that you regret having your child. Totally. Totally. Like regret can be an emotion. It can be a thought. It can then become a belief. But I worry sometimes when we're capturing a specific snapshot of a person like they're doing a TikTok video or they're having a, you know, and I get it too. Like when I'm super frustrated,

like my daughter literally went to a new daycare and she got strep and then she got the flu and now she has pink eye and it's just like and sometimes in moments of exasperation I'm like I could you know go on TikTok and be like just so you know no one told me about this it's awful right right right but I'm not going to feel that way next week and that's what I wish people would remember when saw these very momentary people are sharing in the moment. Yeah, it's so true. And I think I experience like that regret in a different way when I'm working with estrangement. Yeah. I think there are a lot of parents, particularly those who like sort of just walk away from their kids in adulthood, don't really want to maintain the relationship or investing effort

because they got them to 18. And I see those parents as probably a lot of the time being people that didn't have a choice in having children. And that's not great either, you know, especially for the child. That's why these conversations are so important. So like they're afraid of regret. Do you also find that people are worried about like what their life is going to look like or like the control they're going to have over their life? Yes. I think there's a huge sense of loss of control. I think it's really hard to imagine. what your life will look like. I think it's really hard to try to game out your life when you have a child because it is like the ultimate form of surrendering control. And I think that is one thing

when I'm working with people who are trying to make this decision that I have to kind of, we have to talk about because a lot of times they'll be like, well, I can't imagine what this will be like or I can't imagine what it will be like when my child is sick or when I'm not sleeping or I can't imagine trying to potty train my child or I can't imagine this. And they're like, because I can't imagine it and I don't have a game plan for it, I can't do it. And again, those are different things. I think that's what's so weird about parenthood is you literally have to walk through each phase. And then each phase then prepares you for the next phase, essentially.

It's so true. And there's also like, I don't think you can know what mothers. is going to look like for you specifically. And a lot of people are judging it based on how people around them design their life. And I know, like, I have always felt like embarrassed to say this, but like if I didn't have help, if I wasn't able to like have my motherhood set up the way that it is, I would find motherhood to be very difficult and probably not enjoyable. And there are people, yeah, who like, who look at me and they're like, oh my gosh, I could never do that. I would want to be with my kid 24-7. And, like, I feel like that freedom of

choice also can be really helpful for people. That it's, it can be different. Yeah. Yeah. I also think about it, too, as, you know, especially as my child is young, I felt, because my daughter went to daycare. Well, I mean, yeah, you live around here. So there are very few young baby daycare option. Yeah. But for me, I was like, I want to have help and I don't want to be a stay-owned parent because this is not my strength. This is not something that I think I will excel at. And I truly think I would be doing a disservice to her if I stayed home. And I get, you know, there's privilege in that. Not everyone has the choice or the means and things like that, which is a very real issue. And I think, yeah, I think because we have such a binary of what a good mother. looks like, it does prevent people from maybe choosing an alternative path of I'm going to have maybe just one child or I am going to continue to work or, you know, I'm going to work part time or whatever those different options are because I do think that especially one thing I hear

a lot is like I don't like babies so I don't want to have a child. And again, those are different things. Like I'm not obsessed with babies. I've become more interested in them since I have had one. Right. Right. But I was never someone who wanted to hold anyone's baby, who thought they were adorable. Like, I had a child because I wanted to be a parent and I wanted to have the lifelong relationship of having a child. And I think on the flip side, some people love babies, love toddlers, and they don't think about how, you know, back to what you were saying about estranged parents, that this is a lifelong commitment and a lifelong. relationship. Yeah, yeah, it's so true. I also found the newborn stage to be like really challenging

for me. And now with my next child, it's almost like I'm doing better because I know where it's going go in a way. And you can kind of look at that and be like, okay, I know that this is going to blossom into this. But parenthood is so bizarre in that way that every stage feels like it's going to be forever. It's like fleeting and all-encompassing at once. I mean, I think that is like the grief of parenthood is every stage is too long and not long enough. Like all the stages you love are not long enough. And like the hard stages feel like forever. And that is like the grief of your like constantly nostalgic for the present moment in this weird way, but also at the same time are exhausted.

lot of the time. Yeah. And fantasize about a break. Yep. It's so true. I've heard you mention recently like the societal pressures on on both sides, like where there's certainly a trend of like having children is selfish or maybe being aligned with certain like quote unquote traditional values. Yeah. And then there's there's a lot of like you should have a hundred kids and stay home and like I don't like become a farmer. Like I feel like there's these. to like really polarizing things that at least I'm getting fed. And I'm wondering how you would help people detach from some of that like societal pressure and figure out what they want.

Yeah, I think that it's really important to tap into your own values and get really clear about why you're making these decisions. Like I often, my kind of cornerstone belief about this is that we have to disentangle desire from fear, from logistical barriers, from societal expectations. And a lot of times those things get so jumbled up, especially, you know, barriers, fear, and desire that people truly, when I'm working with them, and I ask, well, if you were to, like, one of my favorite questions is let's put all the logistics, all the fear, all the expectations to the side. And you could do parenthood, however you wanted to do it and it would be accepted. And you could know that nothing

bad would happen. Like all your fears, let's just put them to the side. Do you, would you then want to have a child? And people don't even know the answer to that question because these things get so jumbled up of, well, if I'm going to have a child, right, I have to have more than one because it's selfish to have an only child, right? Or if I have a child, I have to homeschool them or I have to stay at home or I have to, you know, do X, Y, and Z. And I think it is so important to disentangle those because even if you then decide, okay, the barriers and logistics are just too much for me, I'm, I can't do this or I'm not interested in doing this even though I want to. At least you know then like where you're coming from and how you're making that decision versus I think a lot of

people kind of go one or two ways where they say, right, like, if you're not 100% confident, you should never do it. Or they say everyone's scared to do it, you know, you should face your fear. Just do it anyway. Yeah. And there's a middle ground. Let's look at what these different factors are so that you can at least understand why you're making the decision you are. I think that's so well set and that's helpful for people to imagine like what decision would I make if I was able to like tune all of this out, which I think then, you know, it brings me to that statement that people do say a lot of like there's there's never a right time. Yes. To have a kid. Like, what is your, what are your feelings about that? I think that you, yeah, there is never a right

time, but there are better times than others. For sure. And I think it's. And I think it's, It's really naive to just say, just do it whenever when you are going to be the one that is raising this child and facing the very real logistics and barriers that come with it. And why wouldn't you choose the most optimized time in your life or choose to prepare? Like, yeah, you may not be ready, but there are things you can do to prepare before you have a child. You can be financially stable. You can be in a stable relationship with your partner.

I think people really don't understand that what's going on in your partnership when you have a child will just get magnified. The good and the hard parts will both get magnified. But a child is not going to like fundamentally change your relationship either. So now is the time before you have a child to work on communication skills, to work on like equitable divisional labor in your home, to have hard conversations, to talk about your values. values, all these things. And I think that sometimes people just are very avoidant about thinking about those things and they just use there's never a right time to just do it when they could have prepared themselves a lot more. And I actually think my whole like hypothesis too is I think people who question having kids are more satisfied with the experience one way or another

because they've actually fully thought about everything. Like, most of the stories I hear about people who feel regret or are really struggling, like, with the whole choice in the end, you know, beyond postpartum and things like that are people who really didn't think it through. Or maybe they thought that having a child would fully fulfill them, like make them happy, save their relationship, make their life perfect. And a child is not going to do that. No, absolutely not. And like, we can't put that burden on them to be that for us or it just, it does build that resentment and that regret. But the whole thing about partnership is making me think, like, have you spoken to people who maybe one partner is very on the fence and the other one is, like, committed whether that's to have children or not? And how does that typically play out?

Yeah, I mean, it's really, it's really, really challenging. It's a very common thing. Interestingly, lately, I've had more people who've said my, you know, like husband or my male partner has been respectful of the fact that it's your decision and you're the one who has to go through it. So I'm neutral, which is great. But it also sometimes people get frustrated because they're like, I don't want to make the decision alone. Help me make this decision. I've Also, yeah, I mean, so I, on my substack, I do anonymous. I have like a, I mean, it's a podcast, but it's not a public podcast. It's part of my substack where I interview people anonymously about how they decided to have a child. And they're like people who got off the fence. And one thing that I think is fascinating is how many people, you know, some people, they never wanted to have a child. And then they decide that they want to have a child and their partner doesn't. And they decide this is so important. me that I need to end the relationship. Some people end a relationship and then decide that, you know, they do want to have children. It is really interesting how people navigate it. And for some people, it is a deal breaker one way or the other. They're committed to having a child or not. But I think as more people are questioning this decision, one trend that I've noticed is more people are going into marriage saying we don't know and we'll figure. it out together. And that's where things do get interesting because you don't know where someone

is going to land. Yeah. That makes me feel anxious. Yes. Like, just the way my brain works, I would have trouble committing to someone in a marriage, not knowing how they felt about something that big. Yeah. I don't know. Like, that's so fascinating that more people are. are doing that. Yeah. And I think it's interesting because I think on one level it's like good, you're questioning it and how can you know what you don't know? And one thing I sometimes push back on is I think there has become a lot more pressure for people to decide, like as there are more accounts and people helping people make the decisions. Sometimes there are like workshops where it's like you're going to decide in this amount of weeks, which stresses me out because I just feel like,

especially if you're someone who's truly super neutral, you can, if your partner and your partner is super neutral too, you can just wait. And then if you do decide you want to have kids and it doesn't happen for you, you can kind of be neutral about that decision as well. Like, you can kind of let biology in some way decide at something. Right, right. Obviously, if you have a partner who's like, I need to have children or not, or if you're someone who feels so torn that you're like, I don't want to regret not having a child, you could go through maybe egg freezing or other options if that's possible. But yeah, I think that to bring it back, I think that a lot of people don't know and they kind of are like, well, I don't know and you don't know. So we are aligned on this, which does

make sense, but people can surprise you. And one of the most fascinating things I think is watching how a huge event in someone's life will completely change their perspective on whether they want to have a child or not. Yeah. Like so many people will have a parent die or the election happen or they're terminally ill

or someone else is going through something really big or they lose their job, whatever. And some people will be like, oh my God, the meaning of life is to have a child. And some people will be like, oh my God, no, the meaning of life is to travel. I need to be free. And to me, that's such a clear point of that, like, there isn't one right answer. Like, people can react so differently to circumstances and that changes

everything. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I'm so glad that you brought up the idea of, like, time that I would imagine there comes a point in time where the decision is kind of made for you to some degree, right, to have them or to not have children. And I think especially for women, you feel like you're operating sort of under like this ticking clock. And how do you think that plays into people's decision making? I think it plays a huge role. I work with a lot of people who say, well, I need to make a decision by 35, right? Because the fertility cliff and all of that which we know isn't really, you know, they've debunked a lot of them, and it's not a cliff, but it does slowly go down after that. And it's very unique and individual. I mean,

one of the things I recommend is like go see a doctor, go check your hormones, go check your egg reserves. Sometimes just the act of finding out information can help you suss out whether, how you're feeling about it, right? Some people, again, like we were just saying, they find out their egg reserves are low and they're like, oh my God, I must. I must freeze my eggs where some people hear about it and they're like, okay, well, I guess this isn't going to happen for me. Right, right. Like the interpretation of the event of what happens can also kind of give you some information.

I used that in like a weird way. Whenever I decide if I want to have more kids, I'm like, if you got a positive pregnancy test tomorrow, would you be angry? Excited? Yeah. And I can always like gut check myself a little. little bit there of like, okay, I'm not at the point where I would be excited yet. So that's like a point to wait. And I think if you thought about any news like that,

you know, it could be helpful to point you in the right direction. I think that's a really great question for people to ask themselves because, yeah, sometimes we don't know until we have data that kind of comes in, which we can always create. But yeah, the question you asked can create the sense of information even if it's not accurate right now. The other question I really like and I think it really helps people is I will say if someone feels very torn, I will say, okay, I want you to take a week and pretend that you like have decided that you're going to have a child and imagine like that you're pregnant right now. And I want you to go through the whole week and think about how you feel.

Obviously there might be parts of you that are nervous, but are you excited. are there, you know, positive emotions and things like that and then go through it and do the opposite and pretend that you've learned that you can't have children or you're not going to. And what is that like for you? That's a really interesting experiment. Yeah. And I think even incorporating like your partner into that, especially finding out like news that you could not carry a child. Like how does that sit with you or have a surrogate or whatever it is? I think could be really eye-opening the way that you just immediately react to that information. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Do you think that we need to like alter the way that we speak about parenthood? Like is that influencing people? I do think so. And I go back and forth. I mean, I feel like we've overcorrected a bit. I think that like we were talking about the ability now we have to like step into someone's in the moment experience is really hard to interpret like without context essentially of just right when you're seeing someone in like having postpartum

depression yeah it's really hard to not like be impacted by that I think it's hard because on one hand yes we need more honest stories I've heard from a lot of people online that they are really glad that people are being honest and you hear, especially older generations say that of like, no one talked to me about this. And I wish I would have known. And I'm so glad like new generations are thinking about this. But I also think with anything, we can also get into like information overload, analysis paralysis. Again, that trying to game out every step of parenthood and feeling like, well, if I don't know how I'm going to potty train my child or what kind of how I'm going to parent my child as a teen or people will often be like, well, I know nothing about toddlers or I know

nothing about this. Yeah. And it's like this is an 18 year journey. You have some time to read some books. Yes, you have a lot of time. And some things you won't know until the child is in front of you. Like, I read a bunch of books, but until I swaddled my baby for the first time, reading about how to swaddle a baby is not the same. It's also kid dependent. Like, it's so crazy. I mean, you know, when you talk to multiple people with kids, have different your experiences can be that I totally agree with you that, like, we need to show more sides. And I also think we talked about this earlier that, like, it's hard to know. what someone is actually going through if you haven't experienced it. Like it sounds like you and I

can go back and watch some of these like really new moms in the thick of it talking about. And I'm like, okay, I've been there. I know what that's like. I know you're going to get, I know you're going to come out of this. And you're going to feel a little bit different later. Because I have even gone through like 12 hour periods of that postpartum, you know. And maybe you won't, you're not going to like love every second. And maybe you will regret it. But you're not going to feel. feel like this forever. And you have that context, but if you're somebody who doesn't know anything about having a child, it's very scary to see that content. Yeah. The other thing that I really want to see more of that I was like searching high and low for when I had kids was like how people

structured their lives. Like if I saw anybody who had a business that was talking about like what hours their nanny worked, where they were taking their kids, how they traveled with children, I want to know more about like how you're making your life feel good for you. And I think there's so many tricks that I've learned about like if my husband and I can get a babysitter from, I don't know, like 10 to noon on a Sunday morning and we spend the entire rest the day with our kids, it feels so different. It feels like really good for us if we were able to like go to the gym and shower. Yep. You know, and little things like that that if people could have told me sooner, like, just do this one little thing. You'll be amazed at, like, how much an

hour will help you, or if I would have known other people were doing that and not felt so guilty for not being able to pull a 14-hour day with no break, you know? Like, I would have, it would have been so much easier that, like, I want people to talk about that. And I get why they don't because then everyone comments and they're like, oh, my God, you're not seeing your kid. You're not doing this. But, like, that has helped me so much. I agree with that. I think too in terms of, you know, because of the internet. And this even kind of sometimes I think ties back to the whole like trad wife of it all. You see sometimes online these these families that have like six or eight kids and they don't share that they have nannies. Right. Right. Help them. And you think they're cooking, cleaning, homeschooling, eight children, running a farm without any help. And it sets people up for failure when, yeah, you. A lot of us, it is really hard to spend hours upon hours with your child all day long. And, yeah, I wish people talked about it more.

I wish there was less people who just said, well, you know, I think people don't talk about it also because the comment is, right, like, this is just so privileged. Not everyone has access to it. And it's like, definitely true. Definitely. And I think we shut down conversation sometimes, like you were saying, and shut down people sharing because there is so much judgment in the parenthood space. Oh, my God. Unbelievable. Yeah.

And there's so many ways to do things. Like, I have friends that, like, switch date night off with each other, watching each other's kids. Like, there's ways to do things outside of, like, paying for help. And I think that we're also so afraid to. admit to each other, sometimes that it's hard or that we need help or, I don't know, like, I have felt that sense of judgment about, like, this is what I need in order to feel like regulated as a parent. And you brought this up earlier that I think is so important to know is like, you need to know your skill set as a parent. And that's something I've really had to

lean into is like, I watch some people that can sit on the floor with their kids and play with like a baby who's nonverbal for five hours. And I'm like, I love that. I am jealous of you. I think it is incredible. And they might look at me and be like, oh, wow, you're doing all these things and planning things and doing it. Like, we each, we have our own skills. And we're like pouring into our kids in different ways. Yeah. And that's okay. Like, you have to give up on trying to be like everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I say a lot that I think my, my time to shine will be. be, you know, when my daughter starts having big emotions. Because, right, like, you too, as a therapist, like I can, like, I think I will probably be able to handle her being a teen fairly

well because I will be able to, you know, I've worked with teens in the past. But it is also unrealistic to expect when you think about it, us to be able to be like experts at every level of child development. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And it depends on like your personality and your partner and like there's so much at play here that I'm a big believer of like kids get a lot of different things from a lot of different people and more positive influences they can have the better. And I wonder if that even helps people sitting on the fence who feel like I'm not good at all these things that my mom is good at or my friend is good at. Absolutely. I think that we have to take some pressure off of ourselves, too.

Like, yes, be mindful about this decision. Think about it. We're not saying it's not going to be filled with lots of challenges. And, yeah, I think we really get stuck in, we doubt our capacity a lot to grow, to change, to adapt. And we really doubt that I think one thing that really keeps people stuck is they assume how they feel right now is how they will always feel. Yeah. So when they see that much. moment of someone in postpartum depression or the mom online talking about how her kids have been

sick for two weeks straight. We assume that they will always feel that way and that we will always feel that way. But everything does always eventually. Like emotions do ebb and flow for sure. Yeah. It's so true. I think, you know, I want to wrap up with like speaking to people who after listening to this and going through this process really feel committed to the fact they don't want children. Yeah. And is there anything that you think would be helpful for them to know to, like, accept that feeling and feel confident in their decision? Yeah. I mean, I'm really of the belief that you can choose to have a child or not have a child for any reason whatsoever. And I think people sometimes feel like they need a good enough reason to not have a

child, like they need to have fertility issues or they need to have never wanted a child ever. And I think one barrier is people think that, I think this is true. And I've heard this, you know, even in my comment section, that a lot of people who do fence it do end up having a child. And I think that can be really hard for people who are questioning it and then they choose to not have a child. And they feel like, well, most of the child-free people, I know. knew for sure they didn't want to have a child and that fence sitting is sort of like a stop along the way to having a child. And I think that, yeah, I think you can not have a child for any reason. I think you can want to have a child and you can say logistically, I don't think it will

work for me in my life or I just don't want to have to do what it would take. Like I had a very traumatic hard birth and pregnancy. I could probably figure it out. if I really, really wanted to having another child. But my husband and I have decided it's not worth the like effort that it will take. And that is an okay, like you can decide that whether you don't know if you want any children, regardless of where you are. But you don't need a good enough reason. And you can decide that for whatever reason. Yeah. I completely agree with that. And I actually think that people who make that decision are actually being very thoughtful and kind and like they know what they want and they know that if they made this choice, it would not be right

for them. And I think that's a good like parenting decision. Yes. To not bring a child into the world that is going to feel like a burden and inconvenience. And that doesn't mean that you're a bad person for not wanting that. But I actually like my friends who know that they don't want children or who know that they want one or whatever it is. Like I deeply like respect and admire that even as somebody who has multiple children. Like I think it's the best like most like aligned thing you can do honestly. Totally. I believe the world needs people with children and people without children. I think we like need each other and that is how like society functions as a all. Totally. Totally. And forcing people to have children that they do not want. Never has a good outcome. I can tell you that from seeing the tape play all the way through. Oh yeah. In a lot of situations, you know, in my own work and being like, wow, what what this could have been like, you know, if this person had more support. So, yeah, absolutely. And I do think, like, it is really great seeing that there are people out there who are sharing their, their life as a child-free person. I always kind of say, like, you can have a beautiful life either way. And one isn't better than the other. They're just different. And you have to decide which path you would rather take. But I think people really get hung up on there is a right decision. And they need to just excavate themselves in a

to find the right decision. And then they get very caught up in how 100% sure are they in their decision. And I really try to talk about how ambivalence is normal. It's okay to not feel 100% sure regardless. And that you can just decide based on where you feel a majority of that decision. Yeah. And you can go from there. And it is okay to not be 100% percent. sure and it is okay to admit that either life would work for you and that's where you just have to decide which path you want to take. Yeah, I love that people are taking the decision more seriously. I hope that it continues to trend in that direction. I think that we will all only benefit from that. So I really appreciate the work that you do in helping people navigate that.

Tell us more about where we can find your substack. and anything else about you. Yeah. So if you want more content about this specifically, my substack is called Fence Sitter. So you can find me there. I also have a lot of like nuanced conversations on my podcast called Nluence Needed. I was on with my co-host Sam a couple months ago.

And we just launched a substack for that as well. But yeah, Fence Sitting is something I'm really passionate about. I also have as part of the paid part of my substack for Fence Sitting. like I said, I interview people anonymously who made the decision and they walk us through how they made the decision and how they feel now years later. That's amazing. I think I recommended your substaff to people in my life and it's been very, very helpful. So I appreciate everything that you do. And thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, absolutely. And if you're interested in therapy, I have a therapy practice called Therapy for Women's Center. You can check us out there too.

Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much to everyone that called in this week and asked questions. I love being able to help you with these family situations and hopefully help you find a way to better navigate them with your adult family relationships. You can always call and leave me a voicemail and I may pick your question for an upcoming Thursday episode of the Calling Home podcast. Just call 866-2-25-5-4-66 and leave me a voicemail. I do these episodes every Thursday, and I love being able to get to help each and every one of you with your family relationships.

If you're ready to work on your adult family relationships outside of this podcast and take what you've learned to the next level, we do have the calling home community. You can join us for weekly groups and watch videos, take courses, get it. get access to worksheets and more, and those groups are run by me so we can actually meet. And you just need to go to www.callinghome.com and join the Family Cycle Breakers Club. Thanks, and I will see you all on Tuesday for another episode. health advice or other medical advice or services. It is not a substitute for advice from a qualified health care provider and does not create any therapist, patient, or other treatment relationship between you and Calling Home or Whitney Goodman. For more information on this, please see

Calling Holmes' terms of service linked in the show notes below.