Camp Gagnon - Alien Science: UFO Encounters Precognitive Dreams, Telepathy Tapes | Kelly Chase & Jay King

Episode Date: January 28, 2025

Yo! Kelly Chase and Jay King of the Cosmosis Institute visit the tent to explore the fascinating intersection between consciousness and UFO encounters. From Kelly's life-altering experiences with unexplained phenomena to Jay's research into consciousness and telepathy, they unpack how traumatic events might open doorways to extraordinary encounters. The conversation spans from documented UFO sightings and remote viewing experiments to the deeper questions about human consciousness, near-death experiences, and the nature of reality itself. Are UFO encounters purely physical, or is there something more happening in the realm of consciousness? We're diving deep into these questions and more. WELCOME TO CAMP! 🏕️ Shoutout to our sponsors MagicSpoon, Huel, Morgan& Morgan and Bluechew! MagicSpoon: https://magicspoon.com/camp Huel: https://huel.com/camp 🏕️ FREE NEWSLETTER HERE: https://camp.beehiiv.com/ TIMESTAMP: 0:00 Intro 1:27 Creation of Cosmosis 4:12 Kelly’s Life Changing Experience 10:26 Kelly’s First UFO Encounter 12:14 Intense Consciousness Shift 21:34 Higher Awareness + Mushrooms + NDE 26:45 Trauma’s Connection to Experiences 34:32 Benevolent Entity 36:04 Choosing The UFOlogy Path 39:33 Revelations About The Future 42:04 Visions of DNA Strands + Upsight 51:19 What Was On The DNA 56:11 Connection Between Experiences + Courtney’s Story 1:06:53 Precognition + Telepathy Tapes 1:14:38 Elizabeth Krohn Story 1:18:05 Religious Aspects In Encounters 1:28:07 The Concept of Telepathy vs Physical Aliens 1:30:54 Trauma of Abductees 1:38:19 Fear of Encounters 1:43:45 Kelly and Jays Theory of Consciousness 1:50:43 Pendulum Institute + Remote Viewing 1:59:12 Placebo Effect 2:04:28 New Jersey Drones 2:18:57 Kelly & Jays Work

I had probably the most profound anomalous experience of my life. I was changed. This is Kelly Chase. She's a UFO researcher and experiencer, and she's joined by friend of the show, Jay King. And today she will explain her experience with an unknown entity. All of a sudden, I felt like I was almost outside of time, and I could see and understand a lot of things at once,

and that I was shown a lot of things at once. How the UFO phenomena might not actually be aliens traveling here from other planets, but rather some type of challenge to our understanding of consciousness and reality. And I think that people really want to separate this stuff from religion and from spirituality. And I think that's a mistake. There's direct parallels between spiritual and mystical experiences and these sort of anomalous experiences that people have. And lastly, we discussed the extremely popular telepathy tapes

and the historical use of telepathy in remote viewing in military operations. There's a guy named Pat Price. He was one of the most gifted remote viewers that anybody's ever documented. Was he utilized by government agencies? Yes. The CIA was very involved. This episode is absolutely fascinating. Obviously, you know Jay, he's been on the show up on a time, and Kelly brings a brand new, fresh perspective to the UFO phenomena that I find really interesting, that it has less to do with space travel, but more to do with maybe something happening with our consciousness. Anyway, there's more to that to discuss.

Tune in, zip up your tents, and welcome to Camp. What's up, everybody, and welcome back to Camp. This is the show where we explain the most interesting, fascinating, and unexplained phenomenon. in the entire universe. And today I have before me the unexplained in the flesh. I have my dear friend Jay King and most importantly my new friend, Kelly Chase.

How are you? So great. So glad to be here. Absolutely. This is going to be a lot of fun. I just watched episode one of Cosmosis, the series that is now on Apple TV, as well as YouTube is actually where I purchased it

and Amazon and a bunch of other places. I think it is a fascinating introduction to understanding the current state of, I guess, UFO affairs. Like, if you don't know anything about this, if you don't understand UAP, if you're like just a casual, you're like, I've seen these drones over Jersey,

and I don't, this is all very strange. Watching that series, I got halfway through episode two, gets you up to speed. It's like, hey, here's everything that's going on, here are some of the major theories that are happening, and here are all the major players in the current space that can, you know, explain the phenomenon up to this point. So, excellent job.

It was really, really good. How much time went into making this, 10 years in the making Just like all of 18 months Just every We suppose every last drop out of those 18 months I think Yeah it was quite the journey

Yeah but 18 months about start to finish For for that season And we've already got plans for future seasons But it just dropped on December 30th And as of the next day We did this independently by the way This is completely independent production. Oh, really? Yeah. We put together, we put together a production company just to do this

and other other related projects, but we did it because we wanted nobody telling us what to do. Yeah. And what they say. And it seemed really important to us. I mean, Kelly, I'd love to hear your perspective, but to not have filters, to not, to not like dumb down the conversation and to really get to a far place. Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating. Anything you want to say about that, Kelly? Yeah, I mean, I just think it was it was a crazy process. As Jay says, you know,

we do these things not because they are easy, but because we didn't know how hard they would be. By Jay, you mean John of Kennedy? That J. That Jets.

Him too. He was copying up. Yeah. So annoying this guy, right? But we're really proud of it. And, you know, we did try to go to a place that was deep enough for the people,

the UFO faithful, to find something new and to find some real value in it, to get excited about it, and to bring some new voices to the table. but we really did want it to be something for like, if you don't know anything about this at all,

you can start on episode one, and you can really get into the deep end in just a few episodes. Yeah, absolutely. So I definitely recommend people go check it out to get up to speed. Your story, Kelly, is very interesting. Jay, obviously, as we've spoken before,

you've been on the program a couple times. I'm sure the audience is familiar. But you've had experiences with, and we'll kind of use a couple different blanket terms here, high strangeness, the phenomena, UAP, aliens, great. whatever that may be, demons perhaps, we can discuss that.

You've had experiences of these things for a long time since you were a little kid. You've had bizarre things that have happened that we've detailed. Kelly's story, I think, is more similar to mine, and I think probably a lot of other peoples where you went, the majority of your life, kind of, as you said, a strict materialist,

not having really any strange experiences. And then within the last three years, literally a thousand days, you've gotten so deep, but, you know, eponymous to your, you know, podcast down the rabbit hole. You've gone into the UFO rabbit hole deeply. I'm curious, how does that start? What was your mindset before this event changed your perspective and what

ultimately happened that brought you into this world? Yeah. So it's been, it's crazy to me that it's been such a short amount of time, honestly, with everything that's happened. But it was back in 2021 that I was going to the outer banks with my family. And that was a place where I'd actually seen a UFO as a kid. So I think like a lot of people, although I didn't really take anomalous experiences seriously, when I look back at my history, I see that I'd had several, including, you know, more than one UFO sighting. But there was one in particular when I was a kid that it always kind of stuck with me. And I had started hearing these stories in the news about UFOs. And I was like, I'm going to go to the beach. I'm not good at taking time off. So I was like this week that I'm at the beach, I'm going to figure this UFO thing out. Just get right to the bottom of it. I did not get to the bottom of it in a week. But I got obsessed because I suddenly realized that the amount of evidence that was there. And I had no idea what was going on, but it was clear to me that I had seriously miscalculated. You know, I considered myself to be a strong critical thinker and a very rational person. And the fact that there was just this insane thing going on in the world that I had just completely discounted and also seemingly very much misunderstood because the way that

the UFO phenomenon is presented to us in like the media and the news is really kind of like a shadow of a of a shadow of what that experience is actually like when people actually report it. So I realized I really had no idea what was going on and I got obsessed and I started like digging really deeply into this stuff. And after about maybe three months of that and I was just reading anything I could get my hands on, I had a probably the most profound anomalous experience of my life. And it was very strange. I was sitting in my room on my bed on a just random Saturday morning drinking my coffee. And I, when I get obsessed, I really get obsessed. So, I mean, I was like, I had books spread out all around me and pens and highlighters and I was ready to spend the day just like going deep on this UFO thing.

And all of a sudden, I had, I don't even know what to call it. I did an episode about it and it took me like a year to write it. It's called Through the Looking Glass where I explain it in as much detail as I can, but it's hard to talk about in detail because I basically kind of experienced a sort of consciousness that feels very different than kind of day to day. I felt like I was almost outside of time and I could see and understand a lot of things at once and that I was shown a lot of things at once. And I felt like there was an entity that I never saw, but like I felt like I was being sort of directed through this experience. And I'd been an atheist up to that point in my life. And I suddenly understood that like there absolutely was a God and that like all the weird things

that had happened to me in my life had happened for a reason and that they'd brought me to this moment and like this was what I was supposed to be doing with my life. And I was supposed to start this podcast and a million things. I don't remember most of it. It probably lasted about two minutes. And as soon as it was over, I had some like flashes of things that I remembered, but I was changed. Like I was, I, the first thing I did, my husband, he was my fiance at the time, you know, he and I had just gotten engaged and we had been friends for like 10 years before that. So So something we both really loved about our relationship was that we both knew what we were getting into, right? Like there are no surprises. And we really shared this view of the world. Like, we grew up near each other. We saw the world the same way. And I knew in that moment that I was a different person. And I, like, immediately just started sobbing. And I went to him and tried to explain to him, like, what had happened. And he was very concerned, but very understanding. Jay knows my husband. He's like the Zen master of the universe. Like, he can handle a lot.

sweetheart. And, but I did change after that. Like, I became a different person. And I suddenly, I started the podcast just a couple months later. And, you know, I had a really hard time for a long time integrating that experience. It took me a couple years to even start to talk about it. Even when Jay and I first started hanging out, I didn't even identify as an experiencer. Because first of all, that experience was so different.

It didn't, you know, I'm used to stories of like a little bit more like Jay's story where it's like, their entities and there's craft and there's, you know, what happened to me, especially as someone who was an atheist, I think it was more of along the lines of a mystical experience of some kind, but like I didn't have a place to put that in myself. And so it's been a really weird three years because on the one hand, I've been like obsessed and working really hard at making my way through this field and feeling like I know what I'm supposed to be doing, that that stuff is very important to me. I had been a marketer before and like in PR and I, you know, that was my world. And so I really have felt as though kind of my role is to help people

who are coming from the mindset that I was in to try to get them to this place, to understand what it is that we're dealing with, like what are non-human intelligences, what's going on right now with the phenomenon, and trying to explain it to people in a way that they can kind of, if you take it piece by piece, it actually makes a lot of sense. But there aren't a lot of places like when I started where you can take it piece by piece. So that's what I've been doing for the last three years and just getting super deep into it. My life just keeps getting weirder and weirder. Wow. Okay. I have a bunch of questions. I'm curious, what was this

UFO setting you saw as a child? So I was like maybe 13 years old. I was at the beach with my family at the Outer Banks, North Carolina. And I was sitting outside. I would sit outside at night because I was a suburban kid. So I never really saw stars, like not like that, you know?

And so I would sit out on the porch at night and just look up at the stars. and I was staring out at the dunes one night just by myself outside. And I had this thought, which sounds crazy, but I found out as I got more into this stuff, this happens to people all the time. But I had this thought that I'd never had before, which was, if I look up right now, I'm going to see a UFO. And I looked up, and sure enough, there was a light going across the sky that, like, could

have been a plane. But then it did two really sharp, like right-angle turns and then just like, like off across the horizon, like nothing I'd ever seen before. And so, like, I went inside and told my family what I'd seen and I was very, you know, excited or whatever. And, like, they just thought I was, like, smoking weed. And I was like, I was allowed to bring weed. Like, like, you give a free set. That was a free smoke set. You would have gotten in no trouble. Right. I was like, I didn't even bring my weed, man. So, so yeah. And you thought, you're like, oh, that's a weird thing. Kind of a fun thing to tell my friends at school. But, you know, you're 13. So you have no real concept

of how bizarre that is. Yeah, I'm not sure that I even talk to anyone else about it. after that and every long once in a while I would think about it. But when I didn't have anything, I had nowhere to place to put that information. And so I think with a lot of people, when you have an experience that you can't explain, and it's like two seconds long of your whole life, the rest of your life is very normal. It's very easy to just assume that those two seconds were like, I don't know what that was, but I probably don't need to worry about it. Right. So then fast forward this consciousness shift. This happens when you're like late 20s, 30. Late 30s. Yeah, this was just like three years ago. Oh, got you.

Okay, so you're just sitting on your bed, just doing work, looking to get into more UFO research. Now, I understand that consciousness is a difficult thing to even define as we presently are experiencing it. For sure. So describing a consciousness shift will, you know, obviously be more difficult and less accessible. Right.

So I'm curious, you know, and you already kind of put the disclaimer on details, but if you could explain the details more explicitly, you're sitting in bed and then time changes, Do you have a visual perception change as well? Yeah, it was a very immersive experience. Like I was no longer on my bed in my room, at least in terms of where my awareness was.

Okay. And I... And how does that happen? Like, how quickly does that happen? In a flash. It was like I felt it coming on. Do you fall? I, for me, it felt more like going up.

Okay. But it was very... All of those things, like time and direct. all became kind of irrelevant very quickly because I felt like what I could see was almost the it was like I was outside of time and I could see like the connective tissue of time and different timelines and like the history. I feel like I was simultaneously looking at the history of my life, the history of the planet, like the history of the universe, all at the same time. And that there were certain things, particularly in my own lifetime line, that were being pulled out for

me like this, this, this, this, this. And it was really in a kind of way to say, these things happen to you because you're going to need this next. Like, with what's coming next, you're going to need to know this, like, or this lesson is going to come back or it's going to be important. And I feel like I was shown similar things about the planet and about the universe, but those things are, I can't get them now. Like, it's, and that's a strange thing to even talk about or just say, but it's something that I've, I've found, it's been easier to talk about it because I've met so many other experiencers, actually even, you know, Mike Masters, who you're going to talk to soon also, you know, is somebody that I helped me get the courage to start talking about this stuff,

because he's had experiences where he was shown things and then it was like, you should talk to him about that where it's like walled off in his mind afterward. And like, you kind of know it's there and you kind of know it's going to come up at some point, probably, but you don't know what it is. One of the interesting things about this, I don't mean, but like, is that, you know, there are like longstanding cultural context for this that like different cultures call it different things. But like, you know, if you were coming from a more shamanic tradition, you would talk about this as being like maybe an initiatory experience. And then if you're coming from a kind of more religious kind of judo-Christian perspective, like Jeff Kriple, like mentioned, pointed out. to us earlier, like, you would call this revelation. And that revelation, the, you know, the etymology there is like something's revealed to you, right? And that situations like this go back, you know,

thousands and thousands of years and have been written about in, you know, religious doctrine, spiritual texts, all this other kind of stuff. And we still just don't have like this great, we don't know how to wrap our hands around this stuff. But then when you look at the world and you look at the great if you look at say uh the words of nicola tesla for example or so many of the other like great geniuses that that have you know benefited humanity they'll talk sometimes in guarded terms or very openly about having like similar weird flashes where it feels like their whole world changes in a couple minutes yeah and then they are kind of like a light with something you know And we've almost come to depend on that in terms of where our society goes in some ways.

Because you have to think, like, if so many of these bright people that have done so much for us reveal things like this. Carl Jung, right? Like one of the fathers of psychology, you know, wrote very much about this in his autobiography. And he tried to hide some of these details until he was dead because he recognized that. it could be troubling for some people to understand. But, I mean, it's like, this stuff happens. And, like, what are we, you know, what are we going to do about it? Yeah, that is interesting.

Now, just to placate the skeptics, okay, at this moment, were you under the influence of psychedelic drugs? No, this was like a very normal. Were you drinking? No. Was there some type of chemical explanation is, like, the first thing people would ask. No, of course. Of course.

No. And, I mean, honestly, sometimes those things do help people have experiences and people can debate that. No, I was dead sober. It was a Saturday morning. I hadn't even drank the night before. I was just, I had coffee. Yeah. Yeah, I've had coffee before and that's never happened to me.

Yeah, that's a strange thing. And then, furthermore, this is never happening before. Like, you don't have a history of mental health where you're hearing voices and things like that. Would that be? No. Not that that would even necessarily preclude the experience, but just to contextualize it for people that maybe are like, oh, well, you know, crazy people have crazy thoughts. No, I mean, this was the, this was completely. different than anything that it ever happened to me. And I can't tell you how much I was the least

likely person on the planet for this to happen to. For like, I was an atheist and I was very comfortable in that. I was, I was certain. I was not seeking. I felt very solid in my worldview. And like I got into this UFO thing, but I still was approaching it from this very kind of like physicalist, rationalist place. And, and to be honest, it, part of the thing that was the hardest for me to come to terms with this. And I was lucky enough to have people like, like Jay and I became friends before I even started to really get into this stuff because I denied it for a long time because I couldn't accept it. Like even though it changed everything about me and it changed my life, like I couldn't accept it. And I was very much afraid and still kind of afraid to be honest with you that I was losing my mind. Because like those are, I didn't have a worldview that accepted that something like that could even happen. And yet it had happened to me. And so even as it changed everything about my life, I somehow just kept moving forward in a way where you kind of split off that part of yourself and you're just like, well, we'll think about that later maybe. Yeah, no, it causes a lot of problems because either you're going crazy, which is bad, right? And then you have to be on psych drugs and you have to question every experience you have.

Like, is that person in the grocery store real or am I having some type of delusion? Well, I'm the daughter of psychiatrists. So, like, I have a very, that's how I see the world, right? So now you know things and you're able to understand how your brain is operating internally. and so now you're questioning all of your senses, which is debilitating in its own right. Or you have to accept that there is some type of God, creator, you know, some type of unmoved mover. Right.

And then now you have to change your behavior accordingly. And how do you change your behavior to now live in accordance with this, you know, creator or this being? Now you have to look at all the history of religious tradition and try to come up with some type of formula for who this, you know, entity is to then serve, right? Like it'd be, I think it would be, I think it would be strange to now have this

profound understanding of God than exist outside of what his will is, right? Like to just fully reject, like, oh, there's a God, but I don't care. Oh, I've seen God, but I'm not going to change anything. I think that would be strange. I'm curious, like, have you now gone more towards, not necessarily a religion, so to speak, but a behavioral change with this understanding that, oh, there is this being, I'm not just, you know, flesh and bones inside this body bag. Like, there's actually perhaps a soul or some type of eternal essence to my my nature. Yeah, and that part happened almost instantly. Without understanding it or integrating it, I felt, I like knew that I had a soul because I could feel it. I knew I could feel it in myself.

And I, you know, in the past, it's not that it didn't matter to me to be a good person, but I also just thought that kind of like if you mostly did the right thing and you didn't hurt anybody and, you know, you weren't a jerk, that that was enough. But I came out of it with this understanding that my thoughts and my intentions are almost are just as if not more important and that the energy that I cultivate within myself and that I transmit to other people is of profound importance and is almost sacred and that I need to be taking seriously what it is that I put out into the world. And there were a lot of other things too. Like I was just as a kid, I was a kid who would have panic attacks about dying and death and that sort of thing. And

even as an adult, I feel like I would still confront that at times. And I was instantly, like, I'm no longer afraid of dying. I'm no longer afraid of death. And it's, those things happen almost instantaneously. Like, I was very changed. It took me a couple of years to intellectually catch up to a place where I felt like I had some kind of an ontological scaffolding to support these things that had already changed in me and to understand them. But, but the changes happened like instantly. Now, this realm that you enter into that you're sort of, you know, you know, downloading these revelations, perhaps. You're not in a physical body.

Would you consider that a soul? Would you consider that like you just were in communion with consciousness? Yeah, I felt like maybe it was even a higher self. I felt like I had awareness of a larger piece of myself, in a way. Like I saw my life kind of from the outside, and I had an almost... like parental compassion for myself, like, that felt kind of outside of myself in a way. Like I suddenly could see myself very clearly, but like with a lot of love. Like the experience was overwhelmingly loving.

Like it was, it was euphoric. And it was, I mean, I cried and fell into a lot of grief afterwards because the change was so profound and it was hard for me to process. But in it, it was like absolute love and acceptance of everything. Hmm. Yeah, it reminds me of two different experiences. One would be the experience that people would have on psilocybin or some type of like psychedelic drug because I've heard numerous experiences, myself included with my own experiences, not to the same extent, but I've heard people, close friends of mine that have done mushrooms then looked in the mirror and they saw their body, which again, I've heard mixed things like perhaps don't look in the mirror while you're on psychedelic drugs that it can invoke things that maybe make you feel uncomfortable. Like ketamine is notorious. Don't look at the mirror on ketamine because you're disassociated and it can cause like, you know, a breakdown or some type of bad trip, quote unquote. But Mushroom specifically, a friend looked into the mirror, saw himself. He's not overweight or unattractive. He's probably just a regular guy. You know what I mean? And he looked at himself and said, and like saw how beautiful his existence was, saw his body and was like, what an amazing body I have.

Like my heart's beating all the time. It never stops beating. Like all my cells are working so hard. Like my brain is functioning so well. like perhaps I'm not like you know some type of sculpted sculpted demigod but there's still a intrinsic beauty to my creation because I made you know he's a religious person but made

in some type of creation of a higher being which depending on your faith tradition maybe that doesn't hold up but that's the way he saw it and he came out of the experience like with way more confidence self-esteem appreciation for himself and someone that historically had dealt with self-esteem things so I was like oh wow that's a really fascinating thing even in the way that you're

describing this euphoria and parental acceptance of yourself. It reminds me of that experience a little. The other experience I think of is like near-death experiences. So our friend James Ian Doley talks about in his near-death experience that he spoke about on this program that he

after a car accident was above, and the timeline, you guys probably know the story better than I do, but so correct me if I'm wrong, but in the sort of liminal space that he was in after his car accident, he was above his accident, he was seeing himself, but also simultaneously seeing the time span of his life all the same time that he was seeing the past, present future, and then even looking at the future of like the earth, but also like the past

with the earth. And he's like, it's difficult to explain because we see time so linearly because that's how we experience it. But he was outside of time looking at time as like it's this own tangible thing in a way that was all happening at the same time. And it made sense then, but it doesn't now. And again, it sounds like a similar thing with you where you're looking at your life experiences and it's nonlinear. Like they just are experiences that are all kind of happening at the same time, perhaps, you're understanding and experiencing them outside of time. Is that a fair attribution to your experience?

Yeah, absolutely. Because, I mean, I've done my fair amount of psychedelics. And psychedelics can get you like, close. Like, not even close. It can get you to something similar. But, like, this was definitely, I think, more like a near-death experience. I think that's why I'm not afraid to die now is because I have this understanding after that, that, like, this.

what we're experiencing right here is a very like filtered filtered down version of like we're this is just a very small bit of what we even are and that we're here to have like a very particular experience but and there's all this anxiety right about you know am i good enough am i loved like am i contributing enough to people like me um but as soon as you're outside of that it's like we're all there's differentiation but we're also all the same and like it's not just that I realized

that I was loved it was that I realized that I was love and when you have that you don't really need to be loved you just are love and it's enough for you and it's enough for everybody

and it's and so you know like I love being alive I'm in no hurry to check out I think this is great but when it happens we're in the beautiful tent we're deep into Adirondon right now? This is awesome. Yeah. Yeah, and it's kind of fun that like we kind of play this game where we

have a life where we pretend like we don't know what we are and we have to kind of remember. And I love all of this. But when it's time to go, I'm ready. The next party is better. Yeah. This is so interesting. Is it possible? And again, this is from a skeptic point of view, you had some type of brain aneurysm and that your mind was collapsing on itself and you had a near death experience and then you kind of came out of it and this angerism stopped? Like, did you have some type of like personal assessment of like your autonomy afterwards? Like, am I healthy? Like, am I, am I okay? I didn't have any signs afterwards that I'd had any kind of a physical thing, but like, technically could it have been like a mini seizure or a something? I think absolutely. But even that, the more I've learned over the last

few years about anomalous experiences and how they happen, it's that, you know, trauma, whether that be physical, emotional, spiritual trauma, sometimes it can be, you know, actually something like a seizure or brain aneurysm or a near-death experience, but also, you know, psychedelics or meditation or just maybe reading too many books about UFOs. Like if you alter, if you quickly alter your viewpoint or you alter something about your body is rapidly altered. Most anomalous experiences are precipitated by some kind of event like that. And so it really begs the question of like what is going on there? Because I think even if that was what was happening,

if there's something about our, like our bodies and our brains, the theories at least, are kind of filtering down consciousness. They're, and they're giving us a very particular perspective that's constrained by not just sort of our cultural understandings and our languages and the agreements that we've made

among each other, but also our senses. You know, like you can't see the whole color spectrum and you can't hear things that a dog hears. So there's, our senses don't give us a sense of all that is. And so we're having this like very particular experience right here together in this kind of bubble of sensory and cultural information. But as soon as, if something happens to you that can, that pops you out of that for a

minute, it's really interesting that when that happens, that people end up reporting things that are very similar, you know, that like what I had is very similar to, you know, James Ian Dolly's near-death experience or, you know, even going back reading the Bible. Like a lot of the, um, the Paul story, right? Like on the way to Tarsis and like, you know, that story I identified with a lot, you know? Like it wasn't like the light just came down and he was like, all right, God, I'm here. Let's do this. Like he was blinded for a time and like they had to take him to the city and like people had to

take care of him and he was like a wreck. And like eventually he got it together and went out and kind of fulfilled this mission that he felt he was given through that experience. But that was very traumatic. And there was a lot about that that I identified. with. So I don't know. I mean, like, I think it's a very fair question. I just think that like, even if that was the case, it still begs the question of like, why is it that when people have something go wrong with their brain or they almost die or they take a psychedelic or something

that we end up accessing this realm and then come back and we all kind of report very similar things. Yeah, no, I don't see it as a as discrediting the experience. I do see it as like contextualizing and perhaps like some type of, I don't call it a gateway, but some type of, you know, catalyst for these experiences. Like, I'm not even someone that discounts like psychedelic experiences. People, like, people have these profound, you know, I've talked to friends

that have done ayahuasca and DMT and have, you know, reported having some type of experience with God. And I don't discount that to say like, oh, you were on drugs, duh. Right. I say that to say, like, perhaps you're on drugs, duh. Or maybe you found some type of, you know,

portal or gateway to have some type of communion with some type of entity that we don't interface with in our current level of consciousness. I don't discount it. And then that goes for near-death experiences or other things of that sort. I'm curious why, from this experience, actually before I get to that question,

the entity that you claimed to have interfaced with, not necessarily visually, but just felt the presence of, was it a good entity? Was it benevolent? Was it neutral? How would you describe your relationship and experience with that being? What's up, guys? Let's take a break really quick,

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Anyway, Huel.com, use the promo code camp, unlock a healthier, easier way to eat with Huel. completely nutritious meals in just a few minutes so you can focus on what really matters, all right? Being productive and listening to podcasts. Let's get back to the show. It was extremely benevolent. And it felt ancient. And it felt like somebody very familiar to me.

Like it felt like this was somebody that I had known forever and that was like that we loved each other very deeply, that we had a deep history. I didn't necessarily have a, at least I haven't brought out of that experience, a sense of what that was. But yeah, it's hard to explain. I don't even, I didn't really ever see them. It felt like, I mean, I didn't have a body at the time. So it's like hard to translate these things.

But like kind of like they were just like right over my shoulder. Like they were in my ear, but I couldn't see them. But I didn't really see myself either. Were you afraid in the experience? No. In the experience, I was the happiest I've ever been. The whole time. The whole time.

It was like when I came out of it, it was almost like, like, all of a sudden, like, I started seeing like patches of like my room kind of coming back through. And all of that seemed almost repugnant. You know what I mean? Like the like everything in like the real space looked like so just kind of like dirty and crooked and like not quite like. And and it felt like. But when I came back to it, I was kind of horrified to be back in my bed. I'm like, I'm like, What is this place? This is awful. And my room's very nice, actually. She's got a great place. But in comparison to the euphoria of this space. Yeah. And I was like, and I just had like tears running down my face. Like it was a rapturous experience. Yeah.

Now, I can preclude that because you were doing UFO research prior to and then having the experience that that would be the path you would go down. But was there anything else from the experience that would indicate that it was anomalous, you know, in the route of UFO? or was it just sort of a journey of consciousness that brought you to this path? Like, why did the path not bring you into a deep spiritual tradition to say, like, oh, I'm going to become Catholic or Muslim? Why was that the path that this took you down? I mean, I think, at least from what I was shown, that, like, this was very particularly that I was supposed to be doing, that, like, that the skill set that I had and that the way that I saw the world, and, like, very particularly, particularly the fact that I had been so.

certain that there was nothing on the other side, the fact that I had been so atheistic, that I, you know, that I'd had that worldview and then the skill set that I had from sort of like marketing and PR and I'd had podcasts in the past and that sort of thing, like that was necessary. And, and I've always felt like, and I don't feel like I ever attached it to any particular belief system, although, like, I certainly entertain it. I was raised Catholic and like went to Catholic schools all the way through. And so so much of my context is through that. lens and it certainly had me go back to the faith of my childhood and and embrace it in a different way but I also feel like for the work that I'm doing right now that being as my dear friend,

the philosopher James Madden says, I try to stay ontologically promiscuous. I like that. You know, just because I feel like so much of what I do is just to try to make things palatable for everybody within their own worldview and that like stamping too much of my own particular answers on anything wouldn't be super helpful. And so I don't. But, but yeah, I just, I was just sort of given the idea that that was what I was supposed to be doing and that that was kind of always the plan. And it's like, it's go time. Interesting. Could you share more in detail of things that you firmly remember from the experience,

like what you were shown? I know you kind of tacitly remarked like things from your childhood, but what specifically came up in that experience that you could share? I think I remembered a lot of just about being a kid and about the things that I, cared a lot about kind of before the world got to me, you know, like the things that I, I was very into parapsychology as a kid. And I was just always a seeker. I was just always a questioner. And I, and the things that I'm doing right now feel like a really natural progression of, of who I was as a kid. And so I think there was a lot of just sort of remembering that. There was looking back to particular anomalous experiences that had happened in my life and

realizing like, oh, there was something to that and that in some way that those were like breadcrumbs were being left for me to kind of affirm to myself that these things were, were happening on purpose. And there was just also a lot of like very, like, almost procedural things that was just like, you know, you know how to do this from this job, you how to do this from this job and you're going to need this skill and you're going to need this skill and it's going to take this and it's going to take that. and it just sort of like instantly wove my whole life that I had always felt like was kind of bizarre and checkered. I've done all kinds of weird stuff. I've had a million different jobs. I've lived all over the world. Like I've done weird. I've always been weird. And all of it never really made a lot of sense. And then all of that was for a very specific reason and you're going to need all of it. And then revelations about the planet and like perhaps the future. That stuff is way murkier. Like I think that there's a sense, I don't even, sometimes I don't even like talking about the stuff just because I,

worry about what it does to people. It's such a meme and like a destructive meme. But I mean, I think like a lot of experiencers, I know that it involved kind of coming cataclysms and like that sort of thing. It's, which is extraordinarily common, not just among experiences now, but back through, you know, generations through millennia when there's people who are reporting having contact, whether it's with, you know, gods and goddesses or fairies or jim, or jim, or whatever you want to call it, this kind of theme of cataclysm, floods, and, you know, comets, annihilation is something that comes through all the time. And so I don't know what that means necessarily, which is why sometimes I don't talk about it because I worry the people hear that and they're like, the end is nigh. And like, who knows?

Could be. But it's certainly not, I'm certainly not the first person who's been shown that. And so far, so good. We haven't died. And was it a clear example or was it just a general feeling of cataclysm? At the time, it was extraordinarily clear, and I knew exactly what was going to happen. And now I don't. Bizarre.

I don't remember. It's interesting that you can have such a dire and sort of tragic revelation, but simultaneously be filled with so much peace and, you know, sort of solace. Like, you weren't concerned. Yeah. And I'm not concerned. I mean, I am concerned in that. I mean, I think we're all concerned, right?

Sure. There's, like, a bunch of really plausible ways that the world could end imminently, right? And that's a fun way to exist. but I think I had this understanding that you know I'm a Battlestar Galactica fan that like all of this has happened before and all this will happen again and that it's all that there is a very important thing that's being done here

with sort of the human project and that and that whatever comes is not necessarily going to be great but that you know the real we come here to do something very specific But the real us is in the place that I want to. Like the real, that's, and that's where the real stakes are. And whatever we're working out here is very important.

It's very, very important. But it's not reality necessarily. There is a more real, real on the other side. And so it makes you kind of less, it's something that I don't care that I don't think it's important. I think it's extraordinarily important. It's just that I'm not afraid. Interesting.

And then since that event, you obviously get more involved in the community. You start your own podcast and, you know, connect with Jay and get a better friendship with more people that, you know, quote, are experiencers. And then you said that there were more experiences that have happened since. Yeah. Could you share about any of those? Oh, gosh. Yeah.

I mean, there's one, I just did a whole episode about it. It took me forever to write about it because it was so weird. But one thing that I did remember out of this, that weird experience that I had, one of the flashes of pictures that I kind of held on to was I was shown human DNA. like a strand of DNA. And it had this like weird vortex of energy going up through the middle of it. And it had these like weird rings around it that had these kind of candy cane like structures hanging on it. Like the double helix thing?

Yeah. Yeah. And then, but then these strange. Yeah. Like they're like little candy canes like hanging on the side. And it was one of the few things I could remember. So then afterwards I was like trying to find like, what was that that that I saw? Like is that a real thing?

Or is it not a real thing? And I couldn't find anything that looked like that. And so I was like, well, it's not real. And if that's not real, then probably. rest if it's not real, then like, probably's had a seizure or something. We're good, right? Let's move on with our lives. But then out of nowhere comes this guy that I met on UFO Twitter. And then we were in, we took a class from Dana Walsh Basilica together and we started talking. And I, his name's Tom Matt. And long story short, Tom Matt has this like whole, he, okay, so he had a whole drug-fueled mental breakdown.

Like, he had a cocaine addiction and he literally like burned his house down because he thought his wife was like running. some sort of like ring but also was involved with the government it was like he was deep in the shit like he was it was bad right and then he started like moving from city to city he has a book called um jesus goes to hollywood a memoir of madness which because he literally thought he was jesus at one point right so this goes on for like two years he finally like gets it together get sober get some help regains his faculties because he had been like a very successful businessman and owned a marketing agency and stuff before that um and in the wake of this he suddenly found that he had like a new capacity for math. And he also had, um, this thing that he calls upsite,

which is basically like this holographic overlay over his reality that he can kind of interact with and that like nonhuman intelligences can kind of communicate with him. And I think to any person, right, and especially somebody like me who grew up with psychiatrist's parents, to me it sounds like, well, your psychosis didn't really end. It just sort of like changed shape and now you think you've got this holographic overlay over everything. And but he came to me and he told me all this and he told me he wanted me to tell his story. And I was like, absolutely like, no. Like that's not, but I liked him. Like there was just something I couldn't quite walk away from. And like long story short, it's an enormously long story. He wanted me to read this paper that he had written on like dark matter and dark energy and he said that he had been told through upsite these things. And I go to print out the paper and at the top of that paper is exactly the DNA strand that I saw with like the vortex of energy going up the middle, the candy canes on the side. And I go to print out the paper. And I go to print out the paper. And I go to print out the side. And there were a bunch of other kind of crazy synchronicities that happened around that same time. But all of a sudden, this guy who's like a stranger who I thought was like probably crazy, his story is now deeply and intimately connected to mine in a way that like I couldn't ever prove to anyone else, but like I now can't let this go. Right. And he ended up going, I told him like, listen, if you can get somebody to study this and prove that upside is a thing, I'll tell the story. And he ended up like just a couple weeks later getting a team led by Dean Ray. in at the Institute of Noetic Sciences

to take on his case. Got a great lab. Yeah. And they've got a paper coming out in the next couple months. I've got seen an early version of it. And basically they established that like what he was seeing with Upsight

is a distinct brain state that is anomalous that's different from like if he was hallucinating or if he was imagining or if he was there for a whole week while they did this. And they're like, so apparently he does have this. ability whatever it is one of the interesting things about that case is that that often when people are using their creative visualization you know you're kind of like in your mental creative space you're you're seeing them like you can you know you sit back and you think and you look at michael j fox

and back to the future and you can call it up you can call up his puffy vest you can call up his jeanjack and the whole thing and you can see it in your mind but this guy tom and they tracked his eye movements in this lab, and when he was getting himself into this state and kind of like seeing this visual overlay that he'd been talking about for a while, and he approached me too, and I was like, this guy's crazy.

And you know what I mean? Or like, there's something going on with this guy that seems, it's just so different from so many of the other reports that I've here that, like, I don't know where to file this. It's kind of more it. But like, there was the part where I was like, he says that he was crazy before

he's probably still crazy. or that he's mentally ill. Right. Some type of material explanation for what's going on. Exactly. But then they were tracking his eye movements and they see that like his eyes were moving in a way that only happens with like when you're actually looking at something. Like if you're tracking like a bird flying, it's really hard to fake that. Like when your eyes move like track on to something that's moving.

If you're faking it, your eyes will jump like along that path. but if you're actually tracking it at all. And so that's like one way that they're able to tell. But I mean, they did it with like actual brain scans and, you know, all that's above my pay grade. But I mean, it's going to be a peer reviewed paper that's out that. And so that all story, I mean, there's so much more to that story, but that took place over a series of like, like literally almost this whole three years since I had my experience. That's been going on. And I was like slowly.

And it's just stuff like that where people just come into your life in very strange and bizarre ways and weird things happen. and you just, yeah. One of the things that I like best about the Tom Matt story. And like Kelly hosted like a couple of conferences with me, the Enquirer Anomalous Conference series back in 2022, right? Yeah. And, you know, Chris Mellon and Gary Nolan, all sorts of great folks were in those early conferences.

And Tom was like a guy, you know, he was just somebody that was attending. And he just had, I was like, ah, he showed up early. got this weird energy, like what's going on with this guy. And I remember when you were telling me about him sending you this weird paper, and people send people like Kelly and I. Oh, I get weird shit. My email is fine. Your, yours probably too at this point.

And but then when she printed out and you saw that, she saw that picture that she also saw in that vision, like, one of the, one of my favorite parts about the story is that, like, you got like irrationally mad about it. No, I was so mad. There have been a lot of times. when I've gotten mad about this whole thing. I mean, even though my life is much better, I'm very happy. Like, this is my job right now. I'm having a blast, okay? But I'm also someone whose values, I value my freedom all over anything, really. Like my freedom and liberty and just like the ability

to do what I want to do is something that I have always placed at a premium in my life. And so the idea that something could just reach into my brain one morning and change who I am as a person. It's violated. Yeah. Even though I like the result, it's hard not to be like, how dare you? You know, like it's, and so, and I felt that way about when I saw that strand of DNA on his paper, because like I really liked Tom a lot, but I did not want to tell this story because it's not, it's a complicating story. I was trying to find a way to tell a story where it was like rational and science. based and I'm going to explain what happened to me and I'm not crazy. And now my story is like connected

to Tom's, you know, and I'm like, and for what? Of all the things you showed me, you showed me this and now this is the thing. And I don't know anything about DNA. Are you kidding me? Right. So it's just, it is funny. I've gotten, J.C., there are points along the way where I get very angry because I'm just like, what is this? Yeah, especially when you're having a corroborating experience with someone that you maybe have written off or kind of had some type of material explanation for, you know, always having a psychotic break. Now, you have, you have a corroborating. Now, you have, you to investigate it more deeply because now it's going back to that initial concern we had is like, well, am I crazy?

Yeah. Because if I think this guy's crazy and he's seeing the same shit as me, then am I crazy or is he less crazy than I think? Right. Yeah, that's concerning. And I can see that being frustrating. It's very concerning, yeah. When you had the sort of like candy cane apparition, was that in that same experience

we had talked about in your bed? Yeah, and it was one of almost, there were very few things outside of kind of like my, things I had seen in my own life and things that I had seen that. that I was supposed to do, and kind of a very vague idea of what literally like the next three years, which are about the end of that, and it's all ended up being true, that were gonna happen after that.

But everything else was gone. There's just like small flashes of things that were still there and that was one of the very, very, very few things I could still remember. Interesting. And now, what was your, what do you make of that now, like this candy cane thing based off of the research plus your own experience?

Like what are these sort of aberrations to human DNA? You know, I, I'm not convinced that there are anything. Like, I have a few different ideas about it. I mean, Tom, I think, tends to think that there might actually really be something to that. He wrote a whole paper on it. I don't discount that, but I also,

I don't know anything about DNA. And I don't, I'm just not sure. If anybody was going to be shown this, like, show somebody who knows something about DNA. You know what I mean? And I'm not going back to school for this. Like, why me, right? It doesn't, and that part never really made sense to me.

And so I've had a lot of different thoughts about why, like why? I think part of it, for me, on a very personal level, being forced to reckon with my story and not just to reckon with it, but to reckon with my story in the context of Tom's story. You know, especially coming from the background I come from with psychiatrists as parents and that sort of thing. I think that that humbled the shit out of me. I had to deal with every single. sticky, ugly, hard, messy bit of being an experiencer. And because like I said, there's a lot of, there is a lot of involvement with trauma and with addiction even and with drugs and with, you know, all kinds of things that make these

stories more complicated to tell. And it would have been a lot easier for me to protect myself and to tell a cleaner version of what happened to myself and by extension. through my podcast. And the fact that I was forced in a way to reckon with it in that way made me better at what I do. And it made, it brought me to a place that I think I needed to be, to be able to do a better job of telling experiencer stories and, and of doing the work that I'm doing moving forward. And also, Courtney, who's in our first episode, he's at the end of episode one, a good friend of both of ours now. And, you know, I was, he was, he was texting with me about it after that episode came out. And an idea that he had was that

sometimes these synchronicities that happen like that are almost like encryption, that it was, that it's a way of communicating to the recipient of that synchronicity, that like this is something that you in particular need to pay attention to. That there was, that like this was something that only I knew. I never even doodled that DNA thing that I saw. I never told anybody else about it. You know, like I said, I can't prove that to anyone. I'm not interested in that. But like, for me, it became something that, like, I could not walk away from. No matter how much I wanted to, I like, I knew that this was for me. And so he thinks that maybe that's part of it. But, but I don't know. And like, the story's still evolving and things are still happening. And I don't have a feeling

that the story is not done with me yet. And Tom has actually found lots of other people now who report having this same holographic overlay thing going on in their vision. And I actually had a somebody sent me the other day, a guy who wrote in Italian, a book, a biography of Nikola Tesla who was like, you know, what he's describing is what Nikola Tesla was describing in terms of how he would create, he would, he had almost like this hologram in his mind that he could use to create different, you know, his inventions or whatever, and that he could create the whole machine and he could even run the machine as a hologram in his mind. And then, and then if it didn't work, it wouldn't work. And so he would like,

be able to kind of, right? And so it seems as though this is something that more people have. And now the next step is getting multiple of those people in a lab and seeing like, can they interact with each other through this interface, whatever that is. And see some things, perhaps. Yeah. Interesting. Now, based off Raiden's work, like, was there any type of conclusive explanation or I guess, you know, that they were able to look at with the DNA structure? Like, what did Tom think of it? Like, I guess what do other people outside of yourself think of this, you know, candy cane DNA thing? I'm not sure.

Do they theories? Like, it just seems, it seems so specific and so bizarre. Yeah, I mean, Tom has very specific ideas, and I probably, I probably won't represent them well, so I won't try too hard. But he has ideas about what they are and that the ways in which they help kind of, like, sequence genes and that it all has to do with dark matter and dark energy. And, like, I won't be able to explain it very well. Sure.

Does it exist in all people or just people? that experience things. I have no idea. I don't know if they exist at all. Right. So like it's, I have no idea. I mean, the whole, it's crazy how that seems like it's like such an important piece and I have like no more no more data. I mean, an interesting thing here is that like of course, among other things, I, I'm the director of the experiencer group. I deal with anomalous experiences quite often from around the world. And like what Kelly's reporting here is, you know, there's a lot of unique, completely particular facets to what she's talking about. You know, that little diagram, like the kind of download that she got. Other people might call it an initiation or revelation.

You know, there's a lot of words for this. But, you know, I know, for example, some of the people that have come into my group are folks that have experiences. as adults that start recognizing that they're having experiences as adults. And one of the groups that is kind of overrepresented in that batch are people that became longtime meditation practitioners. And so in deep meditation, they felt like they had some kind of contact experience where they were trying to zero out or trying to kind of remain in a meditative state. And then somebody started kind of knocking at the mental door.

right and in some of these cases like i've i've heard about folks getting like almost like a code word like what courtney was talking about encryption or something like that a term an equation like like a message that seems impertinent it seems unnecessary because the message isn't for you but then eventually you find somebody that you have like a weird connection with and that term, that equation, whatever that was, makes perfect sense to that third party. And Courtney's the black gentleman in the program that gets this sort of message to, it was from his son, I believe, to go, you know, he was looking to buy a home and he had all these, you know, sort of ideas about where to, you know, purchase a home. And then he talked to his realtor and they said,

he said, hey, cut out everything else except for the little red house. This is what my son told me and this feels very profound and so they go to this place where this little red houses and it happened to be the place where his ancestors who were enslaved during American slavery were buried and where they were actually working at the time of enslavement. That's right. Which is, I mean, remarkable and bizarre and unexplainable. I mean, it's truly like, you know, you have this deep traumatic family history that then ties in with something that your son says and now he owns the place where his family was enslaved.

I mean, it's like insane. It's amazing. And it's a ranch where, like, his history, his family history, there's a lot of precognition, there's a lot of mediumship. There's a lot, there are some profound UFO sightings. Like, it's a range of experiences. Cattle mutilations? That didn't even make the show. But, like, his ranch.

There were cattle mutilations on his ranch. Yeah. We actually shot one for the show. But, like, it just didn't fit into the show because of all the other kinds of stuff that we're going. If anyone's not aware, cattle mutilations are these bizarre things that happen all over the country, all over the world where, you know, farmers or, you know, people, pastoralists will go out and see their, you know, livestock and they will be, you know, there's a couple different, I guess, experiences, but typically it involves some type of bizarre mutilation that happened that seems outside the realm of natural animal predation. It'll be like all the blood will be drained out or it almost looks like ritualistic in certain ways, like certain organs will be removed. And in like almost surgical precision, sometimes like the blood. will be completely drained out of the animal. Strange.

Like very, and very precise cuts that didn't even seem possible using our own surgical methods until maybe very recently. It's strange stuff. But, like, it's not the only thing that happens at his ranch. There's poltergeist activity or what people would think of as poltergeist activity. There's, there are many forms of anomalous phenomena that happen around there. And it's like, there's a chicken and the egg issue because it's like, is that,

he and his family have had that outside of that ranch and then they went back to that place which is their family land which is where they were enslaved right and then there's like heightened activity there that also mirrors the activity that they've had throughout their lives

elsewhere and so it's it's just like you know how much of that is married to that land specifically how much is embedded there yeah what is he bringing to it what is he bringing to it like like how much of that just like traveled with them outside of that? Did the prior owner of that home discussed any anomalous experience that you know of?

Not that I know of. Not that I know of, no. Interesting. So as he got there, things began to happen. But the guy was like, one of the most interesting things about that story that you brought up, I mean, there are a lot of interesting aspects of that story. But his real estate agent had given him this whole pile of houses. And some of them were in that kind of area of East Texas. He was looking for a second house. He was looking for like a weekend house, like a vacation property. He was also looking at places in Colorado. He was looking in places that were more like traditional vacation areas as well. And then it turns out that the little red house that his son, you know, that he heard. And like his son kind of prompted him to get in to like try to commune with a dead ancestor. And then like by

the little head red house came through, right? The thing was is that the little red house that was in the real estate listings wasn't even for sale. And so among all of this, it was a complete aberration. He heard this voice. I was like, buy the little red house. He told his real estate agent, there's a little red house in the pile. I know there is. Like, let's just go look at that. And then they went to the property and the guy answered the door and was like, the place isn't for sale. There must have been some kind of mistake. And then Courtney just talked to the guy. And then, you know, maybe made him an interesting offer, like just said, what he thought was going on here.

And then a couple weeks later, the guy was like, you know what? I thought about it, and, like, I'll sell you the property. So, like, how many, like,

weird things had to have happened in that situation for, and his family had lost all the records of where they were enslaved. They had no idea. There were some, like, markers. They knew that there was going to be a cemetery there.

There were some descriptions that had gotten passed down. There's like a creek or something. There's a creek. And then he went around, he went on an ATV with the owner the day that they happened upon the Little Red House and the ranch surrounding it.

And he was like, I think, you know, the cemetery should be over there. There's the cemetery. I think if there's a cemetery, then the creek, you know, according to the family lore, should be over there. There's the creek.

And then they found records and of, like, who was buried there and things like that. And the name's matched up. Right. And so, like, it is the spot. And, like, it's not just what it did for his, for him, but, like,

his grandma is also a part owner of it she's the family matriarch and like they started having family reunions again and brought their family closer together like they all recognize how or many of them the ones that we've talked to they recognize how bizarre and amazing the story is and it brought them back together as a family oh yeah I could imagine like even outside of obviously the you know paranormal or you know unexplainable phenomenon just the mere fact of you know the descendant of former slaves owning the property that the family was enslaved on is like beautiful and poetic and

you know almost hollywood-esque like what a cool story and the fact that it is sort of catalyzed by this bizarre unexplainable thing is you know just adds to it i mean i wonder how i wonder how often that happens other places i wonder if there's other versions of stories like this but it's uh i mean just remarkable in general and i'm curious what you had mentioned other experiences there's like since that are there others that you could share would want to share Imagine this. You're 30 feet underground, digging through frozen earth with spoons and mess hall plates. Nazi guards patrol overhead.

One wrong move, one loose pebble, and it's over. But on this night in 1944, 76 Allied prisoners would attempt the impossible, tunneling their way to freedom in the largest prisoner of war escape of World War II. And centuries earlier, in a cold stone chamber, a teenage girl in armor stood by before her accusers, her crime, leading armies speaking to angels and daring to challenge the most powerful men in Europe. Joan of Arc's trial would become one of history's most infamous moments. These are just two stories from today in history, the newsletter that brings you the most

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529 from your cell phone. And also, I'm pretty sure this is a paid advertisement. I think I have to say that. Anyway, let's get back to the show. Sure. Oh, of your own experience? Yeah. There's some weird ones.

Something very weird that happens very specifically with me and Jay is that... Curious to see where this is going. Yeah. Jay's a talisman, I can already tell. I already said he's like a vampire. Like, he's been here a thousand years. Like, there's something with this guy. Well, he's a dream walker, apparently.

One word, moisturizer. Oh, is that what it is? No, I have like precognitive dreams at times, and they often involve Jay. Like some of it's stuff I can't necessarily talk about because it's just personal. You know, if you're going to have precognitive dream, it usually cuts. It's a deep cut. But, I mean, just as a, for instance, like I had an experience where I had a very, very distinct dream about Jay being in trouble. about something bad happening to Jay.

And I woke up from that dream and my phone was ringing on my nightstand. And this was like three in the morning. And listen, we're besties. We don't call each other three in the morning. And I answered the phone and it was Jay telling me basically that what I had just dreamed

had just happened basically and that he was okay but that like something bad had happened. Wow. Yeah. I would like to go into more detail. Yeah, that's fine. but I was with somebody else that would prefer to, you know, the details of it.

Of course. Yeah, but it's stuff like that. Basically, you had a dream that something had happened with or to Jay and then you had called to confirm that experience. Yeah, like I woke up to my phone ringing and it was him telling me that that had happened. And what was the time span, if you're able to even share that detail? Like, from when you were having the dream, like, do you think you were having the dream simultaneously to the event happening?

Oh, yeah. Like, I woke up from the dream because of my phone ringing. And was the event happening right prior to when you called her? Yeah. Like it was continuing to happen Like it was happening Wow So you were almost having the dream

Simultaneously So it's not even pre-cognitive It's like Yeah Telepathic perhaps I guess Like I don't know what the definition would be If you're seeing the dream

And it's happening in real time Yeah like I often have It's happened a few times now That I've had dreams about What was going on with Jay Very currently Like at that moment And sometimes I don't find out till later

That it actually was happening But like And then there are a couple other things That are like Things that might be a few years out or something like that. And like, that's interesting too. But, you know, I mean, again, the details

are things that we can't corroborate. They're sometimes very personal and I wouldn't even want to mention it. Yeah. But that is the interesting element to a lot of the stuff. Like we had talked about the telepathy tapes. Kai Dickens, I believe, is the woman that put it together.

Based off of Suzanne Powell's... Diane Powell? Diane Powell. Diane Powell's work. And it creates an interesting problem. If anyone hasn't heard of this, to love with the tapes. It's amazing. I really, I really enjoyed it. Basically, it explores, uh, initially, you know, Diane Powell's work is exploring autistic savants, uh, children that

are on the autism spectrum, typically nonverbal that have what seemed like extraordinary abilities, which is well documented. You know, you'll have a nonverbal autistic people or even verbal autistic people being able to memorize the digits of pie to like, you know, the 10,000th place or, uh, have a mastery of music in some capacity that is, you know, beyond, their years, and it's just remarkable what they can do. And this is documented. And it was interesting, through her research of this, she's now looking at kids that have extraordinary mathematical abilities,

but she realized some of these kids are not necessarily savants, but perhaps they are seeing what the mother is testing them on through the mom's eyes almost telepathically. Yeah. So then she says, perhaps they're not savants. Perhaps there's something even more remarkable happening that there's a telepathic communication with the mother typically. and then she goes on to do research and study to, you know, put a child in a room or under a blanket or with a blindfold or some type of partition, and then the mother looking at words in a book, looking at a random number generator, and the child is able to accurately depict what the mother is seeing. Now, obviously, there's, you know, criticism to this with facilitated speaking. People are suggesting that a lot of these nonverbal autistic children, because of the disconnect with their mind and body, they have difficult to, you know,

controlling their bodies. And so because they're nonverbal and because they have difficulty controlling their bodies, typically the only way they can communicate is through a spelling board or an iPad, and sometimes they have to be touched

by someone in order to do this. Which under sort of the materialist scientific approach would preclude the study from fitting within some type of strict scientific measure, which creates problems. And then you have this subset

of the spelling community within the autistic spectrum world where they say, don't bring to life at the end of this because we just got the right to do facilitated communication, and we don't want to bring telepathy into our world because that's crazy.

And then you have an even smaller subsets. You have communities within communities that are exploring this whole thing. And it's fascinating. Then it goes even farther to, you know, almost into precognition, where there's a child that dies and the other autistic children already knew it

without being told, and that they all sort of commune, not all, but many of them commune on a place known as the hill and that many different nonverbal autistic kids will, you know, bury themselves in blankets and pillows to basically block out, you know,

senses to then go to this place, where it's almost kind of like this non-material, non-physical world where they can communicate with other people. It's all very bizarre. Is it the consciousness field? Is it the astroplane? Is that where Kelly was and that for those two minutes? Right.

There's a lot of questions. Yeah. And the difficulty with so much of this is that because the scientific process is based on the material approach, it requires certain things like, you know, double-blind studies and replicability. but a lot of these like pre-cognitive experiences, it's not promptable, right?

Like you couldn't just be like, okay, I'm going to have a precognitive thing and then prove it. It happens sort of outside of your control in certain ways. Yeah, I have no control over it. I am compelled that there are people who have a much greater control over it. I don't.

It's not something I can do on purpose. Like I'm not, I wouldn't consider myself psychic. Like I don't, you know, I think I'm very intuitive, but that's, you know, not to a degree that is, Are they World League on any level?

So I can't control any of this. These things just, they happen. And, you know, some of it may or may not even be true is the other thing, is that, and that's a layer of complication on all of this, is that, you know, there's a lot of talk in the UFO world about, you know, disinformation and sciops and all of this stuff and the things that humans do to other humans to muddy the waters. But the phenomenon, whatever this thing is, also disinfos us. Like I was saying about, you know, for centuries, if not millennia, there have been, you know, groups of experiences and, you know, early religions, cults, that sort of thing where people feel like they're having these kinds of contact experiences where they're seeing the end of the world and then the end of the world doesn't come.

And so, you know, you have to be, you know, you take, for me at least, to keep myself sane, you know, I take what's valuable and I take it as it comes, but I take everything, which. with a big grain of salt. Like, I don't assume just because I have a dream about something that it's definitely real. That way is, that's a dangerous place to get, I think. Right. Yeah, it's just, I don't know, the telepathy tape specifically,

I remember listening to it just being like, I wish that there was a way to control this experience in a more testable way. But perhaps the metrics of our testing are too material, I guess, which is kind of the criticism. I'm curious, have you, like, specifically with the experiencer group,

I remember you telling me there's a woman that was having precognitive dreams that she was emailing her psychiatrist and so they were timestamped and correct me

if I'm wrong on this it was time stamped and then the events would occur and you could kind of use that almost again it's not promptable or replicable

but there is some type of timestamp to say like this thing happened I have a time stamped and then it occurred after the timestamp absolutely yeah that was this woman

Elizabeth Crone really fascinating lady she's she lives down in Houston and she wrote a book with Jeff Kriple the kind of esoteric religious studies professor

one of one of the true brilliant minds of anomalous inquiry who's who's been kind of the Dean of Humanities or Assistant Dean or Dean I can't remember down at Rice University

for quite a while and and he runs a really great program called the Archives of the Impossible down there at Rice University. He's got one of the most interesting kind of departments

that would look at this kind of stuff academically in the world. And they wrote a book together called, I think it's called Change in a Flash. It's something like that. Yeah, which is wildly appropriate. She was in the she's Jewish and she was in the

parking lot of her temple. She was on her way for a service and she got hit by lightning in the parking lot and she felt like she went to a realm for what felt like

days she was only out for a number of minutes she was somebody saw the the lightning strike happen she was holding up an umbrella came

through the umbrella. She got fried. Luckily, there were several doctors already, you know, waiting for the service to start. She was, you know, CPR started almost immediately, you know, ambulance almost immediately. But she similarly had this wild kind of download where there's, she felt like she was in a cosmic field. It felt like it like something that people describe as heaven and after she recovered she started having precognitive dreams uh and a lot of them were actually about accidents like plane accidents like train like planes trains and automobiles like situations that would happen and she would write about them in extraordinary detail and then email them to herself or to like a therapist or other people and so she would have a time stamp and then there she has like

an extraordinary track record of those events coming true. And like, what was it, the Sully land? Like the one was the water, like where the plane landed in the water. Yeah, like in New York, like, she foresaw that one. Like, there are some ones that were, like, very particular where there are details that, you know, it would stretch, you know, the bounds of credulity. It would stretch, you know, saying that it wasn't that would be a little bit hard in some of situations. Now, you were raised Catholic.

Yes. Now, the experience you had didn't necessarily invoke any specific iconography or religious details that were tied to your cultural upbringing. Is that true? Yeah, for the most part. I will say that I had a real sense, like I was talking about, you know, Paul, the case of Paul in the New Testament. Like, I saw that, which is strange. I don't mean that to say that I see myself as being that kind of a character. but like it was it felt related to me in a way as something that I needed to understand um i'm sorry when you say you saw that you saw what had happened to paul or you saw the same thing that paul had like i saw what happened to paul i mean who knows if that's what i actually saw but i was that was

how you interpret that was what i was made to understand i was looking at um and and and so yeah it It wasn't really steeped in any particular religious iconography, but I feel what I encountered, like, I don't, I try not to like put a name on that entity or what that is because I try to be kind of radically open-minded about these things. But of all of the things kind of in the grand pantheon of things that we talk about in this field, it felt most like maybe an angel. like it had that kind of a what I would imagine that presence would be like very powerful but also very peaceful and very familiar

yeah I'm always curious like because I understand the people that have like schizophrenic episodes they're typically culturally based to my understanding like people that are born within a Catholic or Christian tradition they'll you know typically say like oh I'm Jesus or something like that and then people

within like a Hindu tradition they might see like Ganesh and a Muslim tradition they might see Allah or Muhammad peace be upon them. Or, you know, something will happen and it'll be connected to their culture. I'm curious, in the experiencer group, I'm sure you have a litany of people that all come from different faith backgrounds and different cultures.

Do you find that their experiences are tethered in some way to their cultural upbringing, or do they seem like pure aberrations from whatever their cultural origin is? It's a both-and situation. Like I see both quite a bit. And, for example, we were just talking about Jeff Kriple, Dr. Jeff Kriple, brilliant academic who's written just books after

books after books about this stuff and his actual first experience like he he's grew up in a kind of

Judeo-Christian situation and he was in Italy or no he was in India he was in India and he saw

and he had a vision that felt incredibly real to him where a non-human intelligence visited him and it appeared as the Indian god Kali to him.

And he is not, he's not Hindu. He doesn't follow any Indian religions. He just happened to be there. And it was a profound experience with all the cultural trappings of a mystical experience that would be more likely to be experienced by a South Asian person, right? And, you know, that's interesting. And for whatever reason, you know, that that was not of his culture and that it had all of these trappings, all of that kind of window dressing that he wouldn't have even, he wasn't even aware of really at that time. That was kind of what he calls the flip, the kind of like ontological flip where you go from being, you know, an NPC.

where you go from being like having your normal consensus reality viewpoint, and then you go into being like, oh, shit. Like the world is a lot weirder than they told us about it in school. Like profoundly weirder. And that happens to so many different people in so many different ways at so many different levels. And it can happen with somebody seeing something in the sky. It could happen with somebody feeling like they're visited by an Indian deity.

You know, and in certain situations like this, like with Jeff, like, if he would have seen Jesus Christ, he may not have flipped, kind of according to him. Because, like, the part of the flip was that it was not his, it was not his culture. Right. And it was, I mean, it was a profound experience, but the underlying there was that it was not, it would not be the cultural overlay like you're talking about that would be in a lot. lot of situations of schizophrenia and other illnesses. I think that's valid. Something that I think this makes me a little heretical in the UFO community because I think that because it took us so long to kind of get taken seriously on any level, right? Like for someone not being taken super seriously, but kind of.

Like they're talking about it in Congress, right? And I think that people really want to separate this stuff from religion and from spirituality and from those concepts. And I think that's a mistake. Like, I really think it's a mistake. These things have profound impacts on people. There's direct parallels between spiritual and mystical experiences and these sort of anomalous experiences that people have related to, you know, UFO craft and also not related to those things. And I think that religions and those concepts that we have, this appears to be something that's been going on for a very long time.

And we have, in some ways, in modernity is this kind of aberrational. this kind of, especially Western modernity in the United States, like this idea that we have that, like, there really is just, you know, there was this billiard ball universe where enough stuff knocked into each other for enough time that, like, somehow stuff started waking up and thinking and talking to each other, but then when you die, it's just over. Like, that's a very, very new idea and one that's shared by, like, almost no other culture throughout human history. And our understanding of the numinous and of the divine and of the things that are kind of just beyond this world, you know, religion. And is the way that we've always kind of grappled with that and where we've contained the stores of knowledge that we do have about these things that are so hard to name and so hard to understand. And, you know, in our show, that was like Courtney. He talks about it even more in episode three, but like that was why his voice was so important to us, not just because his story is so exceptional, but also because for him, he sees all of these things like he is a man of God. He is a Christian. That's a huge part of his life and of his family's life, like his mom is a minister.

you know, he comes from a long line of ministers. And so all of this for him is that is the lens through which he understands and integrates his own profound experiences. And we wanted to show that because, you know, a lot of people are religious and a lot of people do. And in this country, a lot of people are Christian. And I don't think it's at all invalid to approach these things through that lens. I think it's important to also understand that what we're dealing with if you just reduce it and say, it's an angel and so it's only that or it's a demon and it's only that and there's nothing else we need to learn about it and there's no what there's nothing else that could be known I think that can be

a mistake but I don't think it's necessarily a bad lens to use I think it's the lens we've used for it's imperfect as any of them are but like it's the one we've used for a very long time and if nothing else I think one of the aspects of that that's really important I really appreciate you saying that is that is also just that like she's saying like we get so used to this physicalist mentality and we get so used to the way that we're supposed to talk about stuff to sound like we're making sense and to sound like we're schooled and to sound like we're smart and you know to sound like we're educated and part of that involves like you know like oh i grew up with religion or i grew up with spirituality or i grew up with these ideas but now that i'm an educated person like i'm just

going to like cut off whatever that is um but you know one aspect of this is that like a lot of the stuff happens at the edges of our perception, like we were talking about earlier. And like, we know that we have these imperfect flawed bodies that have just like a lens, like she's talking about, over all of our senses. We can't smell as well as a dog can. We can't see like a butterfly can. Like, you know, if we could just kind of go around and mutate our bodies to what other animals around us see or feel or, you know, here, it would seem superhuman to us or very different to us. and like is there we need to start looking probably at many of these states because what if this is about like perceptual interface you know and like if we can't use the language that's already there if we can't use some of these frameworks if we can't if we have no frameworks to point at you know and but we do we have this history that goes beyond cultures and there are some you know terms and some frameworks and some frameworks. and some useful thoughts there

that we can grab back to and be like, actually, you know, people have been in this like weird interfacing state at times in a relatively universal way for thousands of years. So like, you know, whether we're talking about an actual physical non-human intelligence that's coming here from another planet

or another dimension or another, you know, extra tempestrily, as Mike Masters likes to talk about, other things like this, like maybe they're like are we get so used to the way that we deal with each other but we don't know how other beings would relate to each other

and maybe what this edge state is is more native to a panachia like a cornucopia like a whole ecology of other beings or other intelligences that could be out there right yeah I think that's one thing that cosmos does a really good job of is that it kind of references maybe, you know,

tangentially this schism within the UFO community. And it's something that I sense as being like very much a casual that, you know, just sort of likes to dip in, but I'm not entrenched in the way you guys are. Is that you have these like hardcore craft people that seem like, okay, there are craft and they're, it's material,

and they're coming in from a different solar system or some type of different galaxy, and they're entering in through this high-tech. and then you have sort of almost the more spiritual consciousness side and perhaps it's both

perhaps they're different things I don't know but the sense I got from Cosmosis which for some reason it's something that I think resonates more with me is like

this is potentially something that's more to do with like consciousness and how we interact with consciousness that's the sense I got I don't know if that's what you intended but like you know

the way that like Courtney's experience was not you know some type of like gray that showed up to him like you know fucking and go buy your family's house, like as the way it would be shown in, like, film.

And again, not to discount those gray experiences, but his seemed much more in line with kind of the way I feel in terms of, like, my spiritual journey and stuff like that. And it also, I think, opens up room for other types of, you know, high-strangest experiences, whether it's, you know, pre-cognition or, you know, telepathy or, you know,

even, like, reincarnation to some extent, like children with past lives and stuff like that. that perhaps these are all sort of like different little aberrations of consciousness that I find, you know, very interesting, especially coming from like a religious tradition. Like I was talking to someone about the telepathy tapes and he's a hardcore Christian guy. And he was like, eh, I don't know if I buy it. And I was like, how do you pray?

Right. And he was like, well, I think it, oh. Because like, we're saying telebathy as a way for, you know, and I think typically when people say telepathy They were talking about interhuman communication nonverbal through the mind. But if you're communicating with God through prayer, that's kind of telepathy. It's just sort of a semantic difference. Sure.

And everyone genuinely that I've talked to that has had these experiences, they say that they've telepathically communicated. Friends with past life regressions are like, I telepathically communicated with energy, your experiences. I telepathically communicated with a gray. Like, even your experience, I telepathically downloaded something from this entity I didn't see. That is an element that's a part of all of it.

Yeah. And then even my friends, I've talked to people that are like big, you know, rave drug people. And they're like, I've done drugs to my friends and we've thought the same thing. We're like, did you say that? And we're like, I didn't say it. Did you say it? Like, why did we think the same thing? So, I don't know.

I think it kind of opens up a broader umbrella. Now, I'd mentioned to you before that I spoke with, he's not technically an exorcist. He was a former cop that dealt with an exorcist. It was an assistant. He's a devout Catholic. Okay. That would kind of go to be an assistant that he had, you know,

he was sort of an unwavering New York, you know, Italian cop. Yeah, he's awesome. He wrote a book actually called Beware the Night that became a film called Deliver Us from Evil. Oh, cool. Which was a very popular movie.

Like, I haven't seen it. Independently, I had friends being like, oh, yeah, I saw that movie. I didn't know it was a book. And this guy, Ralph Sarci is the man. He's awesome. And, but he comes from a staunch Catholic tradition of, you know, there is the angelic

and there's the demonic. and when I told him about some of your experiences, he was a little bit like, oh, I don't know. It seems a little, seems, because... And the thing that I think underpended, because, again, he's not one of these people that, like, you know, ghosts are all evil and, you know, the polter guys are all demonic.

He's like, it could just be a lost soul that's in limbo in some type of purgatory state that hasn't, you know, communicated with God fully or it could be angelic. He says, typically you can tell based off of the fruits. So like if the outcome is positive, that was kind of like his general litmus.

He had a more specific one to say, like, ask them if they professed name of Jesus Christ. And if they say no, then this is a demonic entity. And if they say yes, then it's angelic. And that was his litmus. So I'm curious, the thing that I think tipped him off to say like, oh, I don't know about this was that your experience was traumatic.

It wasn't a positive experience that you were, correct me of wrong, like angry about this experience. that you had been removed from a safe place for you and that you had been probed and that there was a traumatic sort of violation of your autonomy. And he said that that could be an indication that it's somehow negative. So I'm curious, I'm sure people have brought this up to you.

What is your take as far as like what his belief as far as the demonic goes? What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I've got to tell you about an amazing service known as Blue Chew. That's right. Blue Chew is a service that basically delivers

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a lot of lonely people. So if you're interested in Blue Chew, here's how you get it. You're going to go to BluHu.com and use the promo code Gagnon. That's right. Gagg-N-O-N. It's kind of funny. Gagnon has the promo code. I don't know why exactly, but it is funny. And you're going to receive your first month for free. That's right. Bluechoo.com. Use the promo code Gagnon. Check it out. Blue Chew. Let's get back to the show. Yeah, it's, it's, I appreciate the question very much. And, and, you know, it remains kind of a subject of ongoing debate and, and constructive thought within the culture of euphology and within the culture of anomalous experience. And specifically kind of like,

what people think of as like abductee culture. And, you know, it's a very, small subset. And to some people, including myself, there's also the time factor. You know, we were kind of talking about it earlier. Where these weird, you know, meat suits that perceive time. And then when we get into this edge state, somehow like there's a timelessness that often happens. Or people can see a little bit forward or back or time, you know, what is the present moment seems to be perceptually different, right? Like one's grasp of what the present moment is can somehow be bigger.

And along those lines, yeah, those situations felt very traumatic at the time and they were very scary. And like, I didn't, you know, sleep with a light off until I was like 30 years old or something like that. Like, for the most part, you know? There are a lot of, you know,

hypervigilance, you know, me making sure all the doors were locked and things like that that didn't necessarily, there weren't even necessarily rational within the scheme of what was happening there, which is that there's this like crazy powerful intelligence that's beyond our technology that can, you know, go wherever they want, you know, whether it's a nuclear base, like in the site, in the situation of Mario Woods and the first episode of Cosmosis, or whether it's in people's bedrooms like Whitley Streber's or mine or others, right? So even, within without that even outside of that

scope and within that scope right now you know and here I am and years later and what happened to me then now I'm hanging out with Mark and I'm hanging out with Kelly and like my life is a trip and like one of the most

beautiful ways that I could ever imagine and I'm surrounded at the experiencer group with other people that have had these have had a range of wild experiences and they have a lot to share. And then, you know, we have friends like Whitley or, you know, friends like Jeff or Elizabeth Crone or, you know, so many other people, Mike Clellan, so many other people in the field that I feel gifted that I know some of the brightest minds

in the world in this subject. And it's like if that traumatic shit hadn't happened and I hadn't processed it and integrated it and taken the time and then kind of felt motivated and felt kind of driven to do something about it, we wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation right now, and the same would be true for Kelly. And, you know, we all, and so on the one hand, yeah, like, what are the fruits of it? And like when it comes down to it, here I am, and it took a long fucking time, but now the fruits of it are amazing. Mm-hmm. I will say as a non-abductee that abductees having become close with Jay and other people who identify the same are some of the sweetest and most kind and compassionate people that you will ever meet. Like I think that there's going through that kind of trauma and coming out on the other side of it.

I mean, there's like with trauma, not everyone gets so lucky, but the people who are able to integrate it to find community, to find meeting and to move. have passed it are just universally, it's striking to me that they are both some of the smartest and the kindest people that I know. And I don't think it would be that way without the trauma, to be honest. I'm sorry. Yeah. No, I mean, I would probably be a raging asshole. No, trauma is definitely a forming force.

Absolutely. I mean, there's, I've heard people say that human beings are just a collection of their trauma. You know, that it can invoke a lot of empathy and great therapists typically have gone through terrible experiences. But yeah, I don't know. I just, I question, I've never experienced anything of this sort in any capacity. Like, very, like, tangential things, sometimes, you know, like drug-induced or, you know, like, perhaps, like, pre-cognitive dreams from people that I know. But never anything that myself has experienced.

So it's difficult. And I also have no interest in having any experience. It's honestly probably for the best not to. It's actually something that Jeff Crapewell says a lot. He's like, you know, you probably don't want to talk about the flip. He's like, you know, you might not want to flip. I have no interest. I like to entertain these things intellectually, but the experience, like, I think about your

experience often, like the idea of, like, a door opening or like some type of portal or something is like very, very scary. But without that, you still have a sense, though, of which I find interesting, right? Because I had to go through something like that to kind of get the sense that there was something beyond, right? But like you're, I believe a religious person, right? And like you, so you have that. You might not have had these, like, you know, some slap you up the side of the head kind of

experienced. but at the same time you seem to have there's some sense that you have, right? That there's something beyond just your day-to-day. Yeah, absolutely. I'm not necessarily materialist in that sense. I believe, like, the power of prayer. And I believe that there is some type of, you know,

creator of the universe. Like, those things seem pretty certain to me, which I've, I guess, maybe intellectually rationalized through, like, the contingency argument or like the kalam cosmological argument. Like, you know, things are necessary, contingent and that is add reductive all the way back to the first necessary thing,

which is what created every. and why does anything exist, even in the first place? Like, these are unanswerable questions for an atheist or a religious person, I think. Like, you know, we can speculate. But to me, that draws me to say that I think there is some type of force that created all things. What that is exactly, I happen to follow the Catholic tradition because that's what I was raised in. It feels very comfortable to me. I'm also profoundly moved by, like, the life and, like, Gospels of Christ.

Like, I find them to be, like, the fruits of that, I think, are remarkable. So that is what has been helpful for me, but I'm kind of one of these people that's like, I kind of just want people to embrace the idea that there is existence beyond, you know, what is material here on earth, whether that's Islam or Judaism or Hinduism. Love that. Or even just type of like some type of like non-structured religiosity or spiritualism to say, like, there's something else out there and we should be good to each other. I'm like, I think that's like a general good underpinning that the world could probably take on more of.

Absolutely. Ontological promiscuity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I don't know. I find that to be to be helpful, but I do sometimes get scared of like, like, I remember I watched a movie with my mom and I was a kid and like the Virgin Mary had appeared. Like obviously Catholic tradition, there's all the types of Marian apparitions that have our lady of Guadalupe that appeared to Juan Diego in Mexico. And I remember seeing it and being so terrified by this, which again, this is like the Blessed Mother, like, you know, perhaps like one of the most divine figures in all of Catholicism aside from like the triune God. And I would. like I don't want this to happen and my mom I asked my mom was like can you pray that Mary doesn't visit me and my mom like laugh she was like sure and she was like hey god just like don't send any angels don't send anything to Marr just let's just leave that you know that's fine but I still do have I am drawn to it and I think that there's unanswerable questions which is why I like

cosmos because at the end of episode one it doesn't say like there are aliens they're coming here from this you know nebula or ticulay or whatever it's like it is more of an interface with consciousness which I read Jacques Valet's book which we spoke about before. And that again kind of reaffirmed like these things have been happening for a long time. And maybe all of these things are kind of describing the same thing, which is that consciousness is perhaps non-local. It's not some type of thing that's created in our brain. And you can look at this part of like the hippocampus or the frontal cortex to say, oh, that's where the consciousness is, like the hard problem that Chalmers points out.

But again, it makes me a question like, what is this whole thing of consciousness? And I like the research and the work you guys are doing because I wonder if it ties in the whole puzzle, parts of the puzzle. Like, it adds threads to it. Like, I don't discount the experiences that either of you had, because I do think it says something about consciousness in some way. And I don't know what way that is, but have you read Galileo's error? Are you familiar with this book? It's an excellent book. You guys should check it out. It basically, I forgot the author's name. Creas says, you wouldn't mind pulling that up. I should give this guy a shout out. I'm only partially the way through it. But basically, he says that Galileo's error is, like,

the way he constructs a definition of consciousness. And that he kind of promotes a sort of pan-psychism approach to consciousness, that it is sort of non-local. It is this thing that kind of exists outside of us that we interface with. And sometimes people's attenives to that consciousness can be completely, you know, perhaps, dare I say, abnormal in the case of, like, you know, people with nonverbal autism that is like an aberration of, you know, development. And they have an ability to tap in with this consciousness in some way that, you know, the, what is it, neurotypical person wouldn't have. I don't know. Like, I'm curious, like, in terms of broad consciousness, how do your experiences and the people that you work with in the experiencer group, what does it say about consciousness?

Do you have a theory of consciousness that works well with your experiences? Like, what, just broadly speaking, how do you define that? You want to tackle that one, first? Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. It's a tough one. It's, I don't know that I have, I mean, mine is, like, very, very broad. I have this kind of understanding that consciousness is somehow cosmic, that it's beyond us that what that work what we're experiencing here is some sort of like filtered down

version of ultimate reality that there's something bigger than this um and i don't i don't really know what that means but i do i do think that like the way you're talking about it i actually really resonate with in terms of how you think about anomalous experiences where i think that certain people have anomalous hardware or anomalous software you know that causes them to experience things that are kind of outside of the, you know, but there's a bell curve of human experience. And there's people experiencing things on either end of that bell curve that are very different from, you know, everything else. But at the same time, I think that human beings, in general, have this capacity in varying degrees. You know, I don't discount at all that, like, I think

it's very interesting that, you know, that you have this sense that there is, that there is, you know, the unmoved mover, that there is a creator god, that there is something outside of this life, that there is such a thing as good, you know, not in a relativist kind of way, but in a, in a greater way, that there is something that is good and that we're able to know what that is. I mean, this is a capacity that goes beyond like what, you know, your dog or whatever has. Human beings are, and we have this sense of something beyond ourselves. And whether you're a hardcore experience or someone who's never really had an anomalous experience, we all have this capacity to understand this world beyond ours. And we also are limited in our ability to, like, really know what,

lies beyond this life. And so I think that when you look at the broad spectrum of what people experience that you can, I think it's really interesting to approach it anthropologically and to just look at, you know, not get too tied down to any particular idea, but to look at all of it and compare it to what your own experience is and to say like, you know, okay, what do I think about what, you know, I think Jay and I are very not invested at anyone believing anything in particular and particularly, like I'm not invested in proving anything that's happened to me. I just think it's, I want people to feel more comfortable talking about the weird things that have happened to them because I know how isolating it can be when you can't. And I do actually think there's a lot of value for us as a species to be taking these kinds of fringe experiences, if not literally, at least more seriously, so that we can understand a little bit more.

Because like we go around and we live our lives, like we know what's going on here. What are we doing? Like, we don't know what's going on here. We don't know what this is all about. You know, like they gave us a credit score and convinced us that like all of this is as it should be. We don't know what's going on. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I agree with that. I mean, do you have, do you have thoughts about the consciousness question? I do. You know, I think that, I mean, you brought up the telepathy tapes and we know Kai and Jen who have done such an admirable job working on that show. And, you know, what we, what you brought up earlier there, that there are these non-verbal autistic folks that children, adults, that are seemingly able to not just read people locally, especially loved ones, people that they're connected with,

parents and siblings and things like this. And they talk about that on the show a bit. But then with each other in this, like consciousness field, in this kind of like projected space. And it's like we were talking about earlier with, say, where Elizabeth Cron went or where Kelly went in that vision, how she kind of like rose up and went somewhere.

Where do these, or like out of body experiences, people will have this strange sense of feeling vibrating, like vibrating, and then kind of their consciousness or their, what they think of as their soul or something like that will sometimes leave their body, right? And kind of float around and, you know. This astral projection. And yeah, and then there are different people have like different classifications for like different ways that you can access these other realms. And I don't really know exactly what that is, but the idea that our brains are not the source of everything and that like we're somehow in communion with a consciousness field that pervades, that is something that there's just a lot of. And if it's not literally true, there is such an amount of anecdotal reportage in so many different situations. that point towards that, like, I went somewhere and, or like, I was in this state and I was able to talk to somebody else in this place and then we were able to confirm it later on and things

like this. Like what do you hear about in the telepathy tapes, this is actually more common than one might think. And then just the idea of being able to access that state in some way without having the corroborative power of bringing somebody else or meeting somebody else there, but coming back and being profoundly shifted by it. You know, I think I'm also reminded about, we talk about remote viewing on the show. And like this is something that, you know, world governments have spent millions of dollars studying, which is the capacity for somebody in deep concentration to be able to remotely view something that's happening in another town and across the world.

And some of the people that have been very gifted in that degree, like, say with the Star Gave, program or with the Stanford Stanford Research Institute program, the original program, there's a guy named Pat Price there who people, you know, he died very suddenly and it seemed very suspicious when he passed. But he was one of the most gifted remote viewers

that anybody's ever documented. And he would be tasked to, and he wouldn't even know where he was getting tasked. He would see like coordinates or something like this. He would look at them and he just like zone out. And he would actually

there are reports of him being able to kind of cyclically be in like a classified environment in Russia, for example, and being able to psychically look through like file cabinets and being able to read documents verbatim, like physical pieces of paper that were across the world. And like, is this government disinformation? Is it like, you know, it could be. Was he utilized by government agencies? Yes. He was utilized, like, the CIA was very involved with the Stanford Research Institute program.

It was run by a guy named Cal Putoff, another guy named Russell Targ, and it was overseen by this guy named Christopher Green, who is kind of an elusive figure within the realms of, like, consciousness studies. And as we say in the show a little bit, there's a lot of, like, inconvenient overlap, again, with these people that have been involved in government programs for decades that look at consciousness studies, look at these edge states, look at things like remote viewing, and also are very, very interested in subjects like UFOs. Yeah. Are you familiar with the Pendulum Institute that was utilized by the Nazis in World War II?

I'm not. I've heard of it, but I don't have deep knowledge. This one would be something interesting to look into. And again, I will kind of explain this from when we talk about like ontological promiscuity. I'm also promiscuous with skepticism. Sure. Okay. So like that is a part of like the worldview that I flirt with.

Skepticism is important. So I'll kind of lay this out in sort of a, like a non, I guess, maybe like a non-psychic, a non-psychic worldview. But basically, near the end of World War II, Heinrich Himmler, which was a sort of right-hand man to Adolf Hitler, was running. He was, like, fascinated with the occult.

And of, it seems like the Third Reich and like, you know, the SS, he was like the highest-ranking person that was obsessed with this. And Hitler seems to like, in his early days, was kind of interested, but later was less interested. And a lot of this is documented by Michael, Curlander down at Stetson, who wrote about this in a book called Hitler's Monsters, and is exploring the occult as it relates to the Nazis and the Third Reich. And basically, there was a turning point in the war where British battleships were sinking

German U-boats in the Atlantic. And Heinrich Himmler said they must be knowing about our coordinates in some way that is beyond military technology. They must be doing remote viewing. So as a result, they created a counter, and this is documented, they created a counter group known as the Pendulum Institute basically to combat this and that they were trying to use remote viewing

for military targets in World War II. They actually, at one point, put many people that claim to have psychic abilities, seers, clairvoyance, into concentration camps and then pulled them out of concentration camps to do this work. And basically said, if you can be successful in this,

we will free you and liberate you from these concentration camps. They pulled them out. They put them into these groups. Heinrich Himmler claims that they were actually able to liberate Mussolini after the ally invasion of Sicily and that he was captured and put into a place called the Mars Mountains

Harz Mountains, I forgot exactly the name, but he was in like an unknown base and they were able to liberate him he claims through a remote viewer that told them the coordinates of this person. Amazing. And they claimed that they were able to do other types of military strategy and movements based off of the information for the remote viewers. Some of the people that were conducting the research later wrote in diaries afterwards.

Like, oh, all that stuff was nonsense. Like, it didn't lead to anything. Himmler was just crazy and wanted us to go find, you know, Thor's hammer and stuff like this. Like, he was just out of his mind. But he was a believer, so he put us to task to do it. But really, it was a guy in an airplane that flew over and saw the base, and that's how we liberated him. So, Curlander's research, he believes that it was, you know, Himmler was a crazy person that was using this stuff for his own personal interest.

Other people will look at and say, like, well, maybe, because I think in the initial diary entries from some of these folks that were doing the research that they were kind of on board like wait is this working this is bizarre like you can imagine the germans being like what something non-engineering that's working this is crazy um and that that was a documented use of remote viewing even in world war two that you know the results of that i guess are inconclusive perhaps but again another just interesting interesting you know sort of thread in this large fabric of you know why are at the time, the most technologically advanced armies in the world using this sort of parapsychological tool to try to advance their military gain? Is it possible it's just low cost, high impact,

but they just kind of threw something at the wall because they were losing the war, perhaps. Is it possible that it was useful? I don't know. But it's just a very strange little thread. It's fascinating stuff. I got to look more into that. Yeah. Yeah, it's very bizarre. I will say something I say about remote viewing a lot, actually, is that I think for people who haven't had anomalous experiences and are looking for kind of a pathway in to try to experience something that's maybe not too crazy, right? Maybe not for you, Mark. Yeah, I'm good.

But that remote viewing is actually kind of a good place to start because you can just get books, you can take classes. But even just with a book, I was able to get hits that were convincing enough to me. I mean, I'm in no danger of being recruited as a psychic spy anytime soon. And it's interesting. I think the way people, when you experience it, you realize that remote viewing isn't maybe quite what you thought. Like, I know I kind of felt like I was going to have these, like, very specific images in my mind. And that's not the information kind of comes in in a different way.

But it's easy enough that almost most, the vast majority of people that I've talked to who have put any kind of like real time and effort into learning how to do it. And by which I mean like a few hours, not like days and days. get enough results that it changes the way they see the world. Yeah. Yeah. And I've seen that definitely being the case. I've seen that with dozens, dozens and dozens of people. And there's something to it.

I mean, there's just a lot of documentation that there's a fundamental reality to remote viewing. And like, again, we don't know why that is, but pointing towards this idea of there being some kind of consciousness field and or that you can, get into this kind of like more cosmic or more unified or this consciousness field state and that and that it could still have tethers to like physical reality somewhere else that you could kind of like travel via this and then kind of drop down like in this kind of overlaid way I don't know how this is possible I don't know why it's possible we don't even we can't even necessarily agree on a fundamental definition for what consciousness is. Right. But

there does seem to be something to that field or that or if we can call it that even. And people experience it all the time, right? Like, again, anecdotally, you're thinking of someone and then they call you or vice versa. Like, that's just perhaps a weird coincidence or perhaps there's some type of interconnected

thing happening. I mean, Rupert-Sheldrake's research of people being aware when they're being stared at. It's very strange. Which again, you could look and say like, oh, that's a very helpful biological mechanism. that you can tell when you're being stared at. Your neuron transmitters. It's bizarre, but it's like, how is that seeping into the consciousness

of the person being observed? How do they have, you know, above chance odds of knowing that they're being observed? And then obviously the Gonsfeld telepathy experiments that are discussed in telepathy tapes that, you know, in this one specific instance, they were able to actually have a, you know, a viewer and a perceiver in separate bodies.

It's very, just, again, very strange. A lot of this is discussed in telepathy tapes, which is why it's top of mind for me. Well, and it makes you wonder if maybe it's something that we've lost, like, our capacity that we're like under, we're not, you know, if you don't use it, you lose it kind of the thing. Because when you look at something like the way that, you know, a flock of birds moves together or a school of fish or, and you see that there seems to be this way that they're all kind of having the same thought at the same time as they're, you know, they're moving in this way that feels very orchestrated. And none of them seems uncertain about where they're supposed to go. And it makes you, you know, our lives aren't set up where we're so, I mean, we're all interconnected and we all need each other in certain ways, but like we're getting, you know, increasingly isolated. Even just sitting here, I've been like, gosh, I really like doing an interview with somebody that's like actually here. That's the only way I do it. It creates a whole other vibe. Yeah. Really nice. Absolutely.

And you wonder if maybe we had it lost, like if we were, maybe we had more of that capacity, I mean, that's just pure speculation. But if we were, you know, hunter gatherers and, you know, like, maybe you're out the men I wouldn't be there but but you're gonna gathering you're gathering but you know you guys are out doing hunting a gazelle or whatever it is you know maybe I wouldn't be doing I'd be gathering with you right I'm go honey you seem like you could get down with a you know I mean I'm sturdy yeah I've seen brave you know you have a brave energy like you could get be nice with a bone era right exactly I have a good axe thrower yeah so who knows what I could have capable of but I mean maybe that was an ability that

we had or more of it, a connection with each other, but now our lives just aren't really set up that way. And also, if you don't have the expectation, you know, if you don't expect that you're going to be able to hear your bro's thoughts, maybe then you can't. That's an interesting part of that. Sorry to interrupt if you want to add to that. But I just, it's one of those things also that from a skeptic point of view, you could say, oh, of course people that have an interest in this, like you're doing UFO research and then something happens. Or a religious person is deeply entrenched in the religion. And then they, see something. And then you have pure materialist atheists that say like, you know, what we can

measure is what's real and nothing ever out of the ordinary happens to them. I asked this to my exorcist friend that I was talking to and I was like, isn't that strange that, you know, this it's, you know, people that have never experienced anything, never experienced anything, and people that expect to do. And from the skeptic point of view, it's like, well, of course, like if, you know, if you believe it, you'll see it kind of thing. But then his perspective, again, was like, no, because he's coming from a very, like, Catholic, you know, you know, demonic, good versus evil kind of paradigm, he says, well, if you desire for people to not be believing in the spiritual, and that if you don't want them to be believing in this sort of,

you know, non-local consciousness, let's say you're a demon, perhaps, that you would not want to reveal yourself to someone that already doesn't believe in God. So he says that it is the tool of the demonic, again, his words, to only appear and, you know, interface with people. And again, a tool of the angelic, to only interface with people that already believe and that, you know, wouldn't want to disrupt the sort of the heroine of non-belief, that you're kind of placated with what you can see and measure. And again, not to say that people experience things are demonic, but that that was his perspective that, you know, by believing in something, it actually lends to that idea that you can interact, that you can pray for something and then things happen

because you are doing the first movement. Well, it's like the placebo effect, right? I mean, like, we give it that name and we feel like it happens in a lab, so it must all. But, I mean, the placebo effect is spooky as hell. We know that to the point that we have to control for it in drug trials, that if you think that you are given a medicine that's going to make you better, but we have to literally control for that because there are people who will be given a sugar pill who will get better. Yeah, isn't that bizarre? Right.

And so we know this is a real thing. And in, you know, people like Dean Radin who do kind of parapsychological research, things that they have to control, they have to control for stuff like that. And they can find by like controlling all the variables and running it over and over again that actually, yes, if you believe that sci phenomena is possible, you are better at it. And people who don't believe in it are pretty, pretty bad at it. And something was really interesting from a conversation I had with Dean Radin is that to create those controls is actually the hardest part of putting an experiment together because the control group that they need for that is somebody who's never had an anomalous experience. who doesn't know anyone, like close to them in their family or whatever, who's had an anomalous experience and who, like, doesn't,

and who just doesn't believe in them at all. And finding somebody who hasn't had an anomalous experience and who doesn't have anybody in their family who has reported having an anomalous experience is very difficult. It turns out, like, those are the weirdos. That's very funny. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. I feel like most people know someone at least that they're like,

oh, yeah, I have a friend that, you know, some strange stuff has happened to him. Yeah, but just that amount of, that amount of, like, I know somebody and like, I don't know for sure what happened to him, but like, I don't know, seems not crazy to me. Like, just that amount is enough to impact the results. Right. And the way we use language in a situation like that is so creepy and funny. And it's like that in lab environments, we have to control for the factor of like the spooky magical power of beliefs. Yeah.

You know what I mean? And that's like something we have to write into something. but somehow like all this stuff is fake. However, we have to control for the placebo effect, which is again the spooky magical power of belief. Yeah. Like, what does that mean? Dogs are susceptible to placebo.

I had read something somewhere. This is maybe apocryphal, so correct me if I'm wrong, sorry. But it was something to the effect that like they had done placebo trials with dogs and the dogs, again, I'm so hazy on the details of this. Crestos, could you actually pull that up if you're able to, like, dog placebo study? But yeah, it was just one of these interesting things where it's like, they were doing this research with dogs and they were like getting better

with spite not getting medicine. And that it was affecting that. It's like, how is, I don't know. It's all very easy. But this is why I don't get too caught up with like the drone stuff in New Jersey that's been happening. Yeah, exactly.

Like, I look at this and I'm like, all right, it seems kind of interesting. But to me, that seems more like military tech than anything. But that's kind of my bias. I'm curious, what do you guys make of the, oh, okay. Let's look at this.

Okay. Conditioned placebo effect. A study found that dogs can is a bit of a conditioned placebo effect, which can be observed when a dog's behavior is affected by sedative drug conditioning. Interesting. A decrease in seizure frequency. 79% of epileptic dogs had received a placebo had a decrease. See, that's amazing.

How does that happen? That's crazy. Our little friends. Our little friends, because they have unconditional love for us, and they believe us. Wow. And we're fucking liars. Yeah.

Tell the dogs lies and then they believe them and then they get better. How crazy. How well how is that? I mean, I need to look more into the study, but it's just so, so bizarre. But I'm, yeah, I'm curious. The New Jersey drone thing. I mean, is that, how does that resonate for you guys? Is that something you're like, oh, this is death?

Like, I know that, again, UFO community is kind of schismatic in this way, but I'm curious what your personal thoughts are. I mean, it's a crazy situation. It's, it's crazy how hard it is to parse. I usually reserve judgment. I don't like to just jump on whatever the story of the day is. And I was like, oh, give it a week and I'll sound so smart that I waited until they gave a real answer, right? And we don't have what we're not getting any closer. And people are just kind of getting bored of it, right?

Which in some ways I almost wonder if that's not at least part of the point of it. If there's trying to get us used to seeing more stuff up in the sky and not necessarily even for some kind of like, you know, UFO reason, but just, you know, for teetering on the brink of World War III type reasons. Right. There's going to be more testing going on. or there's going to be, you know, foreign military. So it's all whatever. Yeah, like maybe we need drones up there to be protecting us. Like maybe it's a domain awareness thing.

I don't know. Like, you could speculate all day. It does seem like there have been particularly around military bases, some accounts that sound more anomalous, where we're dealing with things that sound more like an orb, like what Mario Wood saw at the beginning of our first episode of Cosmosis. Like actually, orbs like that over military bases. and nuclear weapons sites

or something that isn't new and is something that goes back a long time and that happened with increased frequency you know like the foo fighters during World War II or there are a lot of famous you know cases at nuclear weapons sites during the Cold War like when the Cold War is getting hot

that kind of stuff would happen more and so you have to there does seem to be something like that going on that's kind of probably related to in some way but also separate from or at least the kind of more military tech side, right? Yeah, and there's a great book on that, by the way,

for anybody interest, called UFOs and Nukes by a guy named Robert Hastings. And it's very, very well researched. And it's a commonly referenced a tomb within the field in terms of the preponderance, like what is up with UFOs kind of monitoring nuclear facilities and military facilities in general, but especially like nuclear stuff. And I like, as far as the recent drone stuff goes, I think we've only got a few more minutes left, right? Yeah, but don't, don't rush at all.

Cool. So like, you know, I live in New Jersey. I live in Essex County. And I, the Sunday after Thanksgiving, I was driving back from Ohio with my partner. And we were driving through Morris County. and we're on the highway and I look up and there is a looks like a drone like red and green lights white lights like a like a traditional drone but it looked like it was between the size of a car

and SUV and it was kind of low and I pointed out to my partner and I was like do you see that and she was like oh yeah it's a drone she was like oh but it's big and like I was like yeah and I'm stuck in traffic it's the Sunday after Thanksgiving it's one of the biggest traffic days of the year. Everybody's driving back from wherever the hell they moved away from after high school or whatever. And, you know, we're sitting there and it's just like putting on a big show and it looks huge and weird and boxy. And it kind of moves over to this field. Again, we're in Morris County and there's just kind of this field off to the right and she looks up and she's like, oh, there's another one. And she's able to see it more than I was. Then the next day was actually. actually, it was the first time that I had seen it.

She sent me a text message that had like a local Jersey report of people having reported from the highway like we were, like seeing these weird things up in the sky. And she was like, I think this is what we saw. And I was like, it certainly looks like it. And then it just starts at this, there's just like this crazy cascade. I mean, I'm not going to say like I was, there are a lot of people. And it probably wasn't, I know that it, for a fact, that it wasn't the first night, you know, looking back on it and having studied it afterwards. It wasn't the first night that after the reports came in, but it was the next day that it started really making the news.

And a couple weeks later, I mean, they've gotten so pervasive that I was walking out in the town that I live in. And it's a very pedestrian town, you know. And, like, there's, and I live in Montclair. I live in Montclair in Essex County. I'm not going to make it a big weird mystery. But like, so I was walking around and it's a very pedestrian family town. There's people out all over, even when it's cold. It was a pretty cold night.

And it was a Friday. And I go out, I walk outside. And with my partner, and she's like, holy shit, there's one again right there. And it's like almost seemingly directly above us. And then there's just a bunch of them. And I like call or I texted Kelly right away. And I was, I took some. You know, and like, of course, it's iPhone that it all looks like crap.

You know what I mean? But I was like, there's something. And it's like right there. And you can hear, you know, my partner in the background and these messages that I was sending to Kelly at the time. They're like, there's another one. There's another one. You're just like. Can you hear the thing?

Are you able to hear the? Those ones I was not able to hear. But other ones that we saw, we were able to. We started walking around town. And it was weird. It was like a freaking Steven Spielberg movie. like there's just people like stopped on the sidewalk going like that you know what I mean it was like straight out of close encounter are they making noise because like can you hear the propellers like when I was out on one street there's a more commercial street I was able to hear kind of hum and propellers on one of them and it sounded like what a drone would sound like yeah and like there's differences here I mean there are some early there are some early sightings and they still persist these days where people will see like these weird amber orbs that don't have any control surface that and behave very erratically and seem like intelligently controlled,

but, you know, there's no hum, there's no nothing, there's no rotors, there's no FAA lights, compliant lights, or anything like this. This did seem very conventional. None of the stuff that I saw seemed weird. It just seemed like a crazy big drone that I'd never seen before. Right. And like, we're walking over to buy a bottle of wine for dinner.

And like the wine store guy, like my wine store guy, he's, again, it's like a Spielberg, movie. The back door of the place is open. He's just like in the parking lot. And he's like, they've been out all night, Jay. He's like, they've been out all night. And he's like, look, there's like four of them up there right now. I look. And they look like they're just like, they were going like methodically. It was almost like you've got these giant lawnmowers in the sky just kind of like, it was like the whole town had like landscapers up in the sky or something like that. So I think there's probably a bunch of things happening, right? I think there's probably

people erroneously identifying bizarre lights as like a helicopter or an airplane or something. Then there's probably people that are seeing this trend happening and then sending their drone up and being like, oh, let's focus on people and send our drone around. And then there's perhaps people that are seeing weird lights that are truly unexplainable

that they can't parse from the other things people are seeing. So part of me is like, okay, let's say there is some type of weird energy interference, whether, you know, some type of UAP, some of unidentified thing. And the government's like, okay, well, we don't want people to be seeing these because we know there's going to be a bunch more

that are coming out. So let's send our drones up to sort of act as a diversion. Perhaps it's military technology to say like, hey, let's do some type of dome because we're testing for radiation from a nuclear bomb. Totally. Could it be a foreign government sending up a ship from the Atlantic to be like, all right, let's just like a Chinese drone that's like surveying and basically has a show of force against the U.S. Like, hey, you can't take down our shit. That one I'm kind of more skeptical on because I feel like the U.S. government would just absolutely mark those. But who knows?

It's all very, very strange to me. Yeah. Yeah, that doesn't seem to be one answer or an easy answer. I agree. I think there's a lot going on kind of simultaneously. And probably at least a certain part of it seems to be that we're supposed to be seeing them. Right? Like the stuff that Jay is describing. So obvious. Yeah. Like they're not trying to hide. They want to be seen. And that has to be at least part of it. And so either, you know, like you're saying, is it a threat from some foreign adversary. And the intended audience for that is really the government. It doesn't seem like it. It seems like. And it seems, but it does feel like we're, we're meant to be seeing them. And I do wonder if there isn't a part of it that's just like that they've had some stuff in the garage for a while, that they're ready to get out and they need us to get used to it. You know, even the early speculation about like it being, you know, something that's maybe searching for a weapon or a, you know, some kind of trace of that. If you think about it, you would want to get us used to seeing those in the sky first. You wouldn't want to like tell us

that you have that. And then it turns out like we see drones in the sky. And then every time there's drones in the sky over New York City, everybody's like running for the, like, like a tunnel. You know what I mean? Like that's not... There's some type of conditioning happening. Yeah, so that we don't freak out when we see it. I think that there's something along those lines. I mean, and as you pointed out, like, some of the early stuff, and Morris County around there, it was some of the earliest stuff was seen over what people later recognized as a very secure facility

called Picotany Arsenal. And there, we don't know, I don't know this for a fact, but like, apparently some of the staging that that is done i mean i've heard this that some of the staging for like the weapon like us giving weapons to ukraine um you know gets staged at picatinny among other places before it gets sent off like it gets prepped there and then moved off if that's true then it adds a wrinkle to the situation it doesn't necessarily point in one direction or the other but it would it would you know a lot of the early questions even from skeptical places where it was like okay, if there's a bunch of weird stuff in the sky,

why New Jersey? Ha, ha, ha. New Jersey sucks or whatever, right? Which is also, two things can be true. Two things can be true. Yeah, it could be a total both-hand situation. I like it. Personally, I like Essex County.

I think it's great. But, yeah, there are other areas in New Jersey that I spend less time in, right? But, like, you know, and in my situation and, like, around there, like, it was like, oh, it happened two nights and then it was done for right there. But then there are other areas around.

there like picket in the arsenal. And there's also a facility that's run by Lockheed Martin called Aegis that the last time I was on the show, we were talking about like domain awareness and we were talking about the last congressional hearing. And there's a guy named Michael Schellenberger that, you know, walked in front of congressional representatives. And he was like, I've got this document. And it's about this like domain awareness program, you know, like crazy radar system that we have

where we've been detecting UAP and siphoning those reports out. And there's some element of AI that we're using with this. And that there are kind of, and one of the related programs was something that we talked about before called Sintient. And then there's another program called Aegis that's run by Lockheed Martin, another domain awareness program that's very little is known about. But it's, you know, run by this major private military contractor. It came up in James Fox's movie The Program, which recently came out. Aegis was named as something of interest where folks have been

able to document UAP, right? And Aegis, like, is again one of these hotspots. People didn't even, all that most people didn't even know that Aegis was there, but it's another one of these hot spots where there's drones up in the sky.

Well, does that mean that something is trying to like figure out something about Aegis and Lockheed Martin? Or is this Lockheed Martin and or it's something else, another program like that, that is, again, throwing the stuff up in the sky, essentially to maybe like red team. You know, there's this idea within, like, banking

and so many other situations in the military where you hire hackers and you hire people to, like, try to attack your own software. You're break your own software. And they red team it, and then you see what you got, right? And there were recent reports, like in the New York Times with the Ukraine. There's a big story.

It's really fascinating about the kind of drone wars in Ukraine and Russia and how Ukraine started to like change the game over there this last year because they started converting FPL drones like these racing drones where you use these little goggles and the three four hundred dollar racing drones. They started turning those into kamikaze weapons and strapping bombs to them and zipping them under tanks and stuff like that. So they're able to take, you know, a thousand dollars worth of shit and blow up a five million dollar. tank or whatever right and the whole story was like you know russia and ukraine has been have been in this fight but ukraine really started just training people over and over and over again and started really utilizing this stuff and a lot of the point of that article was like whoever wins whoever has the most whoever has the best drones wins was kind of like one of the general truisms in the situation and so it does if that's been really true within the theater of war within the last

couple years that that's been like a new revelation that like they're good enough and that people are utilizing them in such a way it does make a certain amount of sense to me i'm not sure but it does make an amount of sense to me that that there would be a limited program where we would throw up some of we meaning like the national security state not me or kelly or you would throw up some of these some of the newfangled ones that they've got not tell anybody about it red team the facilities and then you know, see what people report about it. See what people are able to discern about it. Because people say like, oh, I tried to bring them down with the EMPs.

Like, that wasn't able to be possible. We shot at it. We shot at it. We weren't able to track it. And so there could be like lots of confidential, you know, experimental stuff. And it could be something conventional. It certainly looked conventional to me, like some of the stuff that was up there. And all I knew was I was seeing like big weird drones that I hadn't seen before.

Bizarre. That's an interesting, it's an interesting hypothesis. This is fascinating. But I don't really know. You know, I have no idea. Jay, Kelly, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. If people are more interested in hearing about you and your stories and the people you speak with about this specific topic, they can find you at your podcast, which is...

The UFO Rabbit Hole. UFO Rabbit Hole. Absolutely. They can check it out. Also on X. You're very active. Yes. I'm very active on X.

Yeah. And then obviously the experience group with Jay. And then, of course, Cosmosis, which is now, right now Apple TV is the best spot to see. it? Apple TV, Amazon Prime, YouTube, Google Play, and we're working on an option for international people because, you know, there's a lot of people outside of the U.S. who also want to hear about this. So we are working, like, as we speak on that. So hopefully in the next week or so, we'll have an option. That's amazing. Yeah, right now it's U.S., UK, Canada, Australia, and a few other trains where you can find it. And we're going to be rolling it out towards the end of the month and other world.

Amazing. I really enjoyed it genuinely. I had so much fun watching it. as someone that's sort of tacitly interested and trying to piece together how I feel about all this stuff, I thought it was a great introduction. Definitely going to finish the series, and I would encourage everyone else to check it out. Even if you are the most staunch, materialist skeptic,

it is just fun. You know, it is just fun to watch. The stories are fascinating. And poke holes in it. Try to discredit the whole thing. I implore you. I think it'll be tougher than you imagine. But it was great.

Thank you so much. It was almost as good as this conversation. I will say, I enjoyed this. I enjoy having you guys here more than seeing you on the screen. It's always better in person. Absolutely. Thank you guys so much. Thank you. I think we'll have to do this again.

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