Camp Gagnon - Apocalyptic Sex Cult EXPOSED

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

Investigative journalist Jennings Brown exposes the dark secrets of a mysterious sex cult and digital cults across the world. Join us as we dive deep into his explosive revelations, exploring the cult’s manipulation tactics, psychological control, and the fight for justice. WELCOME TO CAMP!🏕️ JOIN S'MORE CAMP INNER SANCTUM HERE: https://camp.beehiiv(dot)com/THANK YOU WHOOPVisit Join(dot)Whoop(dot)com/Camp for a ONE MONTH FREE TRIAL with Promo Code: CAMPTHANK YOU KETONESave 30% off your first ...

How did you infiltrate a doomsday sex cult? Anybody could get pulled into this. I get, like, how you go there and you're like, I don't want to go back to the outside world. The Fellowship of Friends has been around since 1970 was when it was founded. I had gotten an Airbnb, and turns out, like, all of the Airbnbs in this town are run by members. They've taken over the entire town. Everybody, their dress is different.

They kind of have their own sort of mannerisms and stuff. It's also known for meth labs and weed farms. The leader is Robert Earl Burton. It's based on the fourth way. A lot of gurus kind of. took this teaching and sort of made it their own. The fourth way kind of teaches that there are three ways to kind of breach different types of higher consciousness.

He said that he was kind of the only living teacher who kind of knew how to help people to achieve higher consciousness. A lot of people, they see the bad stuff after they're in too deep. But I started hearing rumors that there were these sex rituals happening. Large, many-person sex rituals. Somebody told me that for a 60th birthday, they had a special event where he had sex with 60 men in one day. I was like, this is just mythologizing.

Turns out it was worse than that. Any part of you, and you have to be honest, that was a little bit like, what if some shit happens? I visited them on and off for like three years. And there were moments where I was like, this is how I die. Jennings. Hi. Thank you so much for being here, man. Great to be here.

I really appreciate it. Okay, I need to explain something to me. Yeah. How did you infiltrate a doomsday sex cult? Yeah. Yeah, I went there. So I got the tip that there was a, the fellowship of friends was this group,

that they had a apocalypse prediction coming up. Okay. And briefly, sorry, right before you jump into that, could you just explain a little bit kind of who you are and what kind of work that you do? Yeah. I'm an investigative journalist. I do podcasts and documentaries now.

I report on all sorts of weird things. the thing that people seem to enjoy the most is reporting on like spiritual abuse and so-called cults and spiritual organizations. So I've done a fair amount of like reporting on alleged cult leaders or spiritual leaders. I'm not even that into cults. I just, again, I keep getting pulled in. Colts have a way of pulling you into these, you know. but yeah I so I really started a few years ago I was doing I was looking into this guru teal swan and I was reporting at Gizmodo which you know it was like doing like tech and

internet culture writing and I was getting I was also reporting on like a dark corners of the internet and like conspiracy theories and right-wing extremism and this was like leading up to the 2016 election. So I was reporting on just like, like sanctioned suicide forums and political crazy shit, like all kind of stuff. And just YouTube, like the algorithm knew I was like into some pretty weird shit. I mean, it was like kind of journalistic curiosity. It was for work, but I'm sure I like fit the online profile of somebody who like was maybe having suicidal thoughts and like into conspiracy theories. So my YouTube recommendation, This was before it kind of came out that like YouTube was like drawing people more into extremism.

But my YouTube recommendations were like insane. And one of them was Teal Swan who she has, she was doing videos about like suicide. And she was accused of kind of starting this online cult. Teal is really interesting. Yeah. I want to talk about her after. But I see that I see how the pathway kind of opened up through through digital discourse. Yeah.

So you cover Teal, who we're going to talk about in a second. Sure. But then you get this tip about this cult out west that has this apocalypse coming up. Right. And that's obviously pretty interesting. Yeah, I thought when am I going to get the chance to witness a doomsday prediction or to like be with a group and see them as they're like leading up, preparing for an apocalypse? Like you don't get that opportunity every day. Right.

What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I'm coming on the road. That's right. Potsetown, PA, Friday, November 8th, 2024, albeit Seoul Joles. You can come see me do one hour of stand-up comedy, nothing more and nothing less. It's going to be an amazing time. And if you're not near Pots Town, don't worry because I'm coming to Stanford, Connecticut. I'm going to New York Comedy Club.

That's right. They have a bunch of amazing clubs in the city and also an amazing one in Stanford, Connecticut, November 13th. If you want to come hang out, come hang with me, say what's up. I'll be talking to everybody after the show. We'll be doing an hour of comedy, guys, stand-up comedy. It's my passion. It's what I love to do when I'm not inside this tent. So come kick it with me.

a bunch of crazy stories. We'll have a great time. You can find the link at my Instagram. Get in the story. I'll put it in the description. I can't wait to see you guys there. Let's get back to the show. So I reached out to him and I was like, hey, I've done some reporting on like spirituality. Also, their thing is that like the fellowship of friends, they believe that in order to achieve higher consciousness, you need to surround yourself with the finest things in life. So they have an amazing vineyard. They were pioneers of natural wine and their wine is amazing and they bring an opera and ballet and they have 44 angels that oversee them and it's Shakespeare, Rembrandt, Bach, Da Vinci. Sounds great. Sounds awesome. Yeah, yeah. So I kind of told them like I've, you know, I've worked at

Wine Spectator and Esquire and also have done like spirituality stuff. So I kind of presented all that and I was like, I'm curious about what you have going on. They invited me at. out. And then they kind of looked me up and they're like, we're not sure if we really want to bring you into our compound. But I, you know, I told my, I'm still curious. I'm coming out and I could talk to ex-members who, you know, have an axe to grind and are understandably upset. Or you could kind of give me a window into the world and to see what, what value this is bringing to the group. And I'm genuinely curious. And I mean, I was reading their books that the group, that the religion is

based on. And so I really wanted to understand what they're about. So I think they kind of respond to that. We started with a wine tour. They have a vineyard. They do, I don't know about now after the podcast came out, but they, you could do vineyard winery tours then.

Now, could you just explain to me what makes something a cult, right? Because like, you're describing this group, you hear that they have a doomsday prediction. Okay, that sounds kind of culty. But when people hear a cult, they think eight people in a basement with hoods and, you know, candles, they think eyes wide shut. Yeah. So why is this a cult and, you know, what kind of behaviors from the outside? Before you actually got in, where you tipped you off, like, oh, this is

something different about this. This is not like a membership club or something. Yeah. Well, I'm very careful with that word because it sounds like a judgment call. If you call something a cult, it feels like it's, you know, it's a loaded word. Right. And, I mean, cults didn't, historically, weren't really seen as a bad thing. It wasn't until like Jim Jones and Charles Manson that it was a loaded word. But yeah, a lot of religions start as cults. And then it's kind of like after it evolves into, I mean, there's different definitions. But I, you know, I kind of say after the leader dies and if it lives on past the leader, then that's kind of when it really becomes an established religion. But yeah, with this one, it's been around since the fellowship of friends has been around since the

1970 was when it was founded. So there's been a lot of reporting early on that called it a cult. I mean, cult experts have called it that. They've used their own kind of, I mean, I'm not a cult expert. Like there are people, you know, in psychology who've worked like with deprogramming who feel qualified to call it that. But so it has been, that term has been used a lot. A lot of ex-members call it a cult.

So, and I think an ex-member or current member once joked to me that they put the cult in culture because they're a high society group. So yeah, I'm a little more comfortable with people calling it that. But a lot of these newer groups I'm a little more cautious about. But yeah, and especially when they've had many doomsday predictions. So it's been labeled a doomsday cult. And they have a PR person? Like you can just email them?

Like, how does that work? They have like a president who runs the business side who also like operates or oversees the winery. So yeah, I reached out to that person. And they were sort of hesitant, but then eventually they were cool with it. Yeah, yeah. And then you packed your bags. What do you pack to go live with a cult?

Well, there's a lot of recording equipment because I want to start with a podcast. Notebooks. Yeah, I mean, I had a lot of, because I want to, like, fit in just so that people are comfortable. And, you know, it's like any kind of culture that you're sort of experiencing. like you want to fit in and not like stand out and also be respectful. They all dress very nice, so I, you know, I packed nicer clothes than I usually wear. And prior to landing there, were you concerned? Did you tell anyone that you were going and were they concerned for you?

Yeah, a lot of people were really worried. And I was worried, but my curiosity gets the best to me. And I was, yeah, I, and also, well, yeah, once I got there, there's no cell service, and it's like tall trees, and it felt very, like, twin peaks. Like I felt like Dale Cooper, Agent Cooper going into Twin Peaks. And it was very eerie. And which area of California is this? It's kind of outside of Sacramento and kind of the foothills.

Okay. Yeah. It's like two hours outside of Sacramento. And had the organization, we'll call it, prior to you going, had any like shady disappearances of members or had any like misconduct that had been rumored? Yeah, there'd been reporting in like the 90s. They that was kind of their peak and there'd been some ex members who had claimed that the leader had sexually abused them when they were young or underage like 17. So they'd been reporting, but it'd been decades since anything had come out.

And what I'd sort of gathered was that it was still very much in full swing and that it actually gotten way more sophisticated as far as like bringing in new members and possible allegations of abuse. Crazy. Okay, so you're packing your bags, you're putting on your favorite shirts, your best linens, packing them in the bag, flying to around Sacramento. Yeah. And then you get picked up at the airport, you just Uber to this cult. Yeah, you know, I just got a rental and drove out there. I flew into San Francisco and drove out there.

And I had gotten an Airbnb, and I kind of gauge that the owner was, of the home, was a member. And turns out like all the Airbnbs in this town are run by members. Because it's really, they've taken over the entire town. So the whole town, it's very, that's also kind of adds to this sort of David Lynch vibe is everybody there dresses different and acts kind of like they kind of have their own sort of mannerisms and stuff. It's also known for a lot of like meth labs and weed farms. So you kind of get the sense like there's one, there's. one grocery store in the town and like one little restaurant and people are either like of the fellowship or they're just kind of there because they're farmers or whatever and they can tell exactly

who's who yeah because i mean they're wearing like a ball gown or they're dressed up because it's again it's high society and it's in the middle of nowhere um so people are in the sticks but dressed to the nines yeah i mean not not every day i mean but they're you know there's like a dress code so it's like dressed very nice like slacks and and tucked in shirts bizarre yeah Yeah. So you get there, it feels very eerie. You're like, how is this? And there was no rip cord. Like, there was no like, oh, if this goes bad, like, maybe you can run away and, like, drive off. But. Yeah, but I mean, when I finally got into the compound, there was, you know, you have to go through a security guard and all that. So I'd spent days in the compounds. I didn't sleep there because only the leader is really allowed to sleep there and a few members. But the whole town around it is other members who kind of like built. their homes around the compound and the town is kind of basically like a larger extension of the

compound but it's it's in the middle of nowhere virtually so if they wanted to disappear you it wouldn't be that hard there were moments during because i i visited them on and off for like three years and there were moments where i was like this is how i die because i was like you know no cell service it's late at night somebody like takes my my i would have like a tour guide sometimes or sometimes i'd be kind of off of my own because they would do shakespeare performances or So I'd be at a show and I'd kind of be walking to my car. And, but a lot of times I had a guide and he would go off and take a call, an act real shady. And I'm like, this is, this is how I get disappeared.

Yeah. Okay. So taking me through the beats of like that first visit and then the subsequent visits after that. Yeah. So the first visit, weirdly it lined up like the week of their apocalypse prediction. So a lot of people were coming in. There's like, I think probably like 500 people in the actual town. but they also have centers all over the world.

So there was this huge influx of all these people from all of the world who were visiting for this special occasion because they believe that the leader said that the rest of the world is going to be destroyed and they will survive. And they will kind of build the new civilization. And that's why they're collecting all of what he sees is the best of civilization from Shakespeare and Rembrandt

and all these teachings. So he will be the leader of this kind of new world order based on his teachings. And just to kind of expand on that idea, can you tell me about the leader and what the idea and what the philosophy is that kind of makes all these people stick together? The leader is Robert Earl Burton. He started it in, yeah, 1970. Now he's pretty old. But yeah, he teaches, it's based on this, it's called the Fourth Way. It was created by this George Gurgie. who was this kind of Russian mystic philosopher in around like, I think 1910 or something, he started it. And he was, it became popular in the 60s and 70s, these teachings. A lot of cults in the 60s and 70s like Rajneeshpuram from Wild World Country.

He was, they was kind of based on the fourth way. A lot of gurus kind of took this teaching and sort of made it their own. And so he pulled from that. The fourth way kind of teaches that there are, you know, there are three ways to kind of reach different types of higher consciousness or whatever, like yoga or whatever. And then this is the fourth way, the ultimate way to kind of become a conscious being, an angel or, you know, like have transcend, you know. And so this Robert Burton, the leader, he said that he was kind of the only living teacher

who kind of knew how to help people become higher conscious, like, yeah, to achieve higher consciousness. And one part of that was being fully present. Like, and, you know, you're never more present than when you're looking at beautiful art or listening to beautiful music or, like, having amazing wine. And, I mean, I think there's a truth to that, you know, like when I was on this compound and I was drinking amazing wine and watching some performance. under this beautiful night sky surrounded by, I mean, this compound is gorgeous. Like, well, now it's kind of fallen into disrepair, but like, you know, there's an amphitheater. There's like, white camels and water buffalo. And like, he's put, they planted all these palm trees there.

It's the middle of the foothills, but they, they move all these palm trees. He's like, there's, there's statues and fountains. So when you're there, you're kind of in this heightened experience. And when you're drinking the wine and watching and listening to music, you feel like these memories of that experience are very present in my mind. And I wasn't like checking my phone or worrying about like what Donald Trump was doing or whatever. Like I just was totally checked out in present. So I get like how you go there and you're like, I don't want to go back to the outside world.

I mean, there were many times where I was like, if I don't know, if I didn't know all the bad stuff going on, I would. And they would invite me to join, you know, because I was kept visiting for three years and they kind of started to treat me like a student. So I totally get it. And I think that's something I tried to capture with the podcast is showing how like anybody could get pulled into this. And then once you start seeing the bad things, you're like, well, maybe I'm just close-minded or maybe that's just the price you pay for this wonderful thing.

You know, a lot of people, they get, they see the bad stuff after they're in too deep. And I think I sort of get inoculated before. You know, I get my vaccine by like reading all the, and talking to the X members. I know all the bad things. So you don't get seduced in the same way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wow. So, okay, so this guy is like very much influenced by mysticism. Very much, I imagine, like, a high cultural member prior to starting this cult. Actually, no. He was raised in kind of small town, Arkansas, and I think always wanted the finer things and sort of reinvented himself. He, yeah, he moved to California. and he was a teacher. He was, I think

this was unconfirmed, but people say he was fired for being too close to the kids. I don't know if they were just uncomfortable because maybe he was gay or like, I don't know, but he lost his job as a teacher. He joined this other similar, like, fourth way group. This is years before he started his fourth way

religious organization. So his leader was this guy named Alex Horn who was a horrific, cult leader. The key, he would have these fight clubs. He would make people beat the gay out of each other. He made one guy have sex with his own daughter. Because it was like this cult of like hyper masculinity and being like an alpha male. Yeah. And Burton was was a member. Robert

Burton was a member of this group and he had to get the gay beaten out of him and like finally got kicked out for because he kept, like, I guess he had relations with another student. And so he got kicked out. And then he was in this horrible car wreck and had all these, he had all these stitches in his head. He had brain trauma, I guess. And after that, he started getting the, started hearing messages from the angels,

the 44 angels that guide him. So I think you, I don't know, I don't want to like. Yeah, we're not a psychologist. Yeah, yeah. But, like, you do have kind of this clean story of, he was in this, I mean, he was abused and like, like he was repressed for, you know, like

in shamed for... Being gay in Arkansas in the 50s or whatever, it's probably not the easiest thing. Right, but then in this cult I mean, it was in California, but it was still like, yeah, I mean, it was,

he was still shamed there and like in a very abusive way. And then he had this, you know, this wreck and then right for that is when he kind of started creating his own group. But then he reinvented himself as this like refined gentleman

and this cult was all about or this group was all about yeah like the finer things in life and he would go on these he travel around the world looking at the artist the art made by the 44 angels and they would he would buy

they were spending millions on like Renaissance art paintings like his they have this mansion they built for him where he has these sex rituals that are filled with all this amazing Renaissance art and statues And now I don't want to jump ahead too far, but how does he get the money early on to like start all this? He was just really good at just knowing who to recruit, I think, like getting people who, again, because it's like, you know, it's 60s and 70s. Like everybody's getting into kind of new religious things and like a lot of them are like you have to go out to India or live in a tent or, you know, in a like.

Right, sell all your possessions, live in poverty. Yeah, and this is one where it's like, no, you get to drink great wine. You get to, you know, surround yourself with fine arts. It's a marvel at, you know, Raphael and have a nice time. You had a lot of, a lot of the prominent members came from money. Or they were like, people who, yeah, they had like generational wealth. And I think maybe we're like looking for a purpose or something. And this, you know, these groups kind of give you a sense of like belonging. And this is just so wild. Okay. So I understand a little bit about this guy now. And I'm sure he had probably more, uh, like specific doctrinal teachings. Yeah.

And ultimately they culminated in these doomsday predictions. And now you are flying out there on the weekend, I guess, of one of these apocalypses. Yeah, yeah. So this is, I think, the fourth or fifth one that he's predicted. And yeah, I just thought I was going to get to witness what it's like when they're kind of preparing for this world-changing event. Okay. So take me through it. What happens?

You land there how many days until the doomsday? Yeah. I had been there before and I talked to X members because that first time I got turned away, I ended up talking to X members. And then I came back for the Doomsday. And that's when they really let me in. But yeah, I had a few days before. And I noticed, I mean, I started with the wine tour. Because they were like, we'll start with the wine tour. And then we'll see how, you know, it was kind of like a test, I thought. And then I saw like different facilities. I guess I sort of passed that test. And then eventually they took me to, uh, the cemetery. And it was this beautiful, like, Zen area. It was very, I don't know. It was like very well kept.

And I think I said something like, you know, you can tell a lot about a community, by the way they treat their dead. And I guess my reverence or something about it, they, the guy who was there later said, that was the moment I knew I could kind of, we could trust you and bring you in. Oh, how interesting.

And then I, you know, I asked all the right questions. Like, again, I said I read the book, of the fourth way and I kind of understood the language and I dressed the part and um you know they could I really and if you listen to it I mean it's a fairly balanced podcast um I think they responded to that and slowly let me in more and more um and I was very transparent I'm talking to X members too like there's a lot of stuff like controversy that I'm going to go into but I really you know I want you to help me understand what's going on so they responded to that um there was this I got invited to, there was this sort of final black tie dinner and a toast, like a final toast that the leader gave and like everybody dressed up really nicely. And I, I, my sort of tour guide for this, he was kind of, I think, a bit of a rebel. And I think he kind of got off on, um, showing me a little behind the scenes. Oh, really? And so he took me, we kind of snuck around the, um, the final, like the black tie dinner. What was his name? Uh, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

podcast, I call him Jack. He said, I'll show you how things really work. Just don't use my name. Okay. So Jack is showing you. Yeah. He's kind of an interesting character in the podcast because he's, he, yeah, I think he thought, you know, I'll, I think, yeah, he's like, kind of thought he could sort of, he was sort of the publicity guy. And if I, if he showed me kind of a little more than I, I don't know, that I'd really see what I like and do a good, I don't know. He also has access to empower in that moment. You know what I mean? Like he is responsible and basically in charge of you for, you know, however many days. He can kind of show you things. He can give you access to things. You're an outsider. Right. So I'm sure he gets a little bit of a thrill from being able to take you

around. And I think it's, um, everybody was kind of excited. It's not often there's like, uh, you know, they've, um, again, they recruit now mostly from other countries. They have centers all over in it, but it's not often like kind of a, a younger, um, American guy comes in and, uh, taking interest in good faith and is being respectful and yeah, yeah, it's kind of peering in. Because like the average age of the members, if you had to estimate. Uh, the, so the, the American members are mostly, like the earliest members are like 60s, 70s. Um, but I don't know, they've been recruiting for 50 years. So it's, it's, um, you know, Now there's a lot of, the younger ones are more like Latin American, Eastern European.

There's a lot of like, I don't know, it's hard to say. But yeah, the core group is kind of, is definitely getting older. But there's a lot of younger people too. So it would be really hard to say the average. So you're at this black tie dinner. Yeah. Everyone's sitting at these round tables, I'm sure, all having like fine. These are fine dinners.

Like the food is excellent. It's like, I think that they've kind of gotten. I don't want to be rude, but it's been harder to sort of to sustain their quality of life because they have not been getting like in the golden days, like in the 90s and like early 2000s. I mean, they were, I talked to the former CFO. He was like, we were rolling in it. Like they were bringing in like there was always like a new Renaissance painting coming in. Now it's like they're kind of they're more on a budget. It's like the quality is going to. gone down, but people, it's kind of has, it's like the emperor has no clothes quality to it. Which is almost more

bizarre. It feels very eerie. Because you're in like, it's almost like haunted mansion. You're like, this was nice. Yeah. And now it's a little derelict. Yeah, like the vineyard just kind of dried up. Like it's, it's kind of, it's sort of a, yeah, it's a once great empire kind of in a

transition or twilight period. And what does the leader look like? Like you're in the room with him. Yeah. And he's sitting there at a table, I'm sure. Like, paint that picture. I kind of want to get your take on like, well, I don't know. Can you do he's, um, again, in his prime, he was like this refined gentleman. He was, uh, he's very tall and um, poised. And, uh, now he's kind of like, gunt and sort of skeletor vibes. Um, and he's gotten more and more, uh, his aesthetic has gotten more explosively rococo.

like florals and it's more like liberacey vibes so he's kind of like this gaunt old man who who yeah is like his home and all the things have gotten like kind of more ostentatious and uh... jack scalington and drag kind of yeah yeah yeah yeah that's wild um so it is it's it's it's all very eerie it's a total outsider yeah so you're sitting there at this dinner jack

I didn't yeah I didn't get to like actually sit in the dinner but I was like kind of there was a it was in its mansion and there's this very ornate garden. So I was kind of like sneaking around the garden. I mean, I was welcome to be there and I had an escort. So I wasn't like trespassing. But you're not a member. Yeah, yeah. But I didn't. I mean, it was like you have to pay. And everybody has to pay for all these dinners and every event, every teaching event. So you had to pay. I don't know what the price was for this dinner, but I hadn't paid. And I wasn't, I didn't bring a tux. Like I brought nicer clothes, but like everybody there is like

wearing, you know, it's black tie. Um, but then yeah, that, That was supposed to be the end of the world. That dinner was supposed to be the end? Oh, no, that night. So after, it was like supposed to happen like two or like in the middle of the, you know, early morning. So this was the final black tie dinner. And then everybody kind of went home.

And there was this kind of like New Year's excitement, you know, like what's, what's tomorrow going to bring? And I think like my, I was staying with members because I was in an Airbnb and we kind of stayed up late, drinking wine and talking and, you know, like. And then I went to bed and it was supposed, I set my alarm for whenever it was supposed to happen. And I woke up and the world seemed to be the same around me. I checked Twitter. The world was still burning outside, but no differently than it was before.

And did you get a feeling from the members as they all exited this event that they truly believed that this was going to, like, you know when like, like 2012, like the Mayans bring to the end of the world? I forget when May, April or something. and, or the thing it was a summer solstice. And there was a little sense that, for me at least, you know, I was like a early teenager. I was like, I don't think the world's going on, but maybe. And so there was like kind of an anxious sort of buzz. Yeah.

No one really believed the world was going to end. But so did you feel like this energy was more on the side of like, no, it's going down, like say goodbye, plan your shit? Or was it a little more in like, oh, this is sort of fun? That was my, I mean, again, that was my initial interest in going out there and seeing this sort of psychology. and what I learned is there there's kind of a whole

array of different views because it's important to know this was not their first rodeo. They've been through a few predictions. Yeah, do you remember one the most recent one was? So this one that I was there for 2018 before that was like I think there was a big one in the 90s

maybe something in between there. Okay. But yeah, like every 10 years or so, there's a big prediction that he gets a message from the angels. and the first one everybody got like super into it like people maxed out their credit cards like cut off their family like you know took out all their savings like bought stuff um bought a much food and then it it didn't happen and uh people were really upset and it really seemed to affect the leader like he spent

a lot of time alone like what have i done and he said at the time um the angels did this to humble me like I'm actually now I'm a more humble and greater leader you know this was like a learning experience and a lot of people left and then but the ones that stayed got even more into it and actually the this was studied in I think the 1940s this Leon Fessinger this this psychology researcher he embedded in a doomsday cult in him his research team

and this is actually where the idea of cognitive dissonance came from the so they he would he wants to wanted to see what would happen. It was like this cult in Chicago. They, they, these like alien angels were had predicted a great flood, uh, or the leader had gotten a message from the angels and it was a great flood that would kill all of humanity. And then it didn't happen. And the leader said, it was because we were so devoted, you know, the, the gods rewarded us. And wow, that's when that's when, that's when, and from that, he, yeah, he realized like, when somebody, when you invest so much in something and it doesn't come true, you can either accept that you were totally duped and coned,

or somebody kind of gives you a life raft or, you know, a path out and like, actually, it's this, you were so good that we've, we win. And it's easier after you've, you know, it's like sunk cost fallacy or whatever, you know, poker logic. Like you've, you've, and given so much, it's easier to take that off ramp. But then you've sort of rewired your brain into this new reality that was created by the leader. So you're kind of giving over more agency to the leader. Oh, wow. So, Even though the leader's wrong, people are still on the hook even more. Yeah. And that's where he started this idea of cognitive dissonance, which we see now with

politics and like conspiracy theories. You've given up so much. Like you've cut off your family for QAnon or whatever. And like any new thing, you're just, you've got, you're all in. You know, like if you, you've invested, you know, you've invested, you know, you've invested at something and whatever. You got to. So, uh, it ends up like, cults that, that, that, that,

lasts for decades and they have multiple predictions that don't go wrong. They don't go right. It's kind of a calling mechanism. Like the kind of halfway people, they peel off, but the true believers become even more devoted. So then you get like this like, so now bring, come in and I'm, I'm there and these people, the diehards have been there for and they're like in deep. Yeah. They've given their whole eyes of this thing. This has been distilled five times over. And they found different ways of, I asked a lot different people like, what do you think is going to happen before and then after? I was like, what do you think happened? And, uh, there were the younger members who were very, excited. They're like, this is it. Like, you notice there's a lot of weird things going on in the

universe. Like, this is happening. And then there were the older members that you could tell. They were like, well, we think that, you know, I think Robert just does this as like a tool to, it's a way of making us feel more present. And don't you feel more present right now? We have, he brought, he was able to bring everybody together and we're all excited. And I was like, yeah, you're right. Like, maybe it is a way to Wow. So you, and it's the same with any religion. You have the diehards who think the world was created exactly like it's described in Genesis, and then some who think it's a metaphor, and they can all worship in the same church or temple or whatever.

You know, like they, so you find different ways to make it work for you. Wow. So these diehard members are still like, or like the old members are still like, oh, he's still a genius. Yeah. And he's still calling us to our higher purpose, you know, this fourth way. We're still being more present. And so even if it's like a Kafka trap It's like whichever way you cut it

You're still going down the path of being a more devoted follower You know what I mean? Like yeah Yeah, this didn't work out But you know it's because we were gonna be humbled Because I'm this is a test for you Right wow, that's so clever Because in my mind I'm like The first time a doomsday prediction doesn't go right

I'm out Yeah, yeah Like I'm immediately like oh this is the dumbest thing ever Duh But I can see how you're already kind of sunk cost You already believe in the leader you now are creating, and now maybe people are even giving you off-ramps. They're giving you solutions to this dissonance that you feel.

And you go, oh, wow, actually, this guy is a genius. Yeah, yeah. Wow. So I can see how the energy is a little split in the room. Yeah. There are some people like, oh, we get to be present again because this is what he does. And the younger people are like, all right, this is happening. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And also the excitement of the younger people is kind of, you're like, oh, yeah, I remember what it felt like. And, hey, maybe something is going to happen. Hey, guys, really quick, did you know that on this day in history in 1582, Pope Gregory, Pope Gregory introduced the Gregorian calendar, which most of the world still uses today. Or that in 1957, the Soviet Union launched Sputnik I, the first artificial satellite into orbit. This event triggered the space race between the USA and the USSR.

I learned these facts pretty recently, actually, on the Smoor Camp newsletter. That's right. Smoor Camp, the inner sanctum. For this kind of show, we do a ton of research. I have different researchers and friends that help me find information, and not everything can make the episode. But either it's like too crazy. It's too like weird or gory and it will get demonetized on YouTube. Or it's just additional and it doesn't always make it.

But it always makes it into the Smoor Camp inner sanctum newsletter. So if you were interested in expanding your mind, learning new information and being the most interesting person into every room you step into. Check it out in the description or this QR code right here. Now let's get back to the show. Any part of you, and you have to be honest, that was a little bit like, what if some shit happens? I mean yeah I was like I mean I'm gonna have the scoop of a lifetime I'm here on the safest place I at that point I had talked to so many jaded ex members

who were like it's he's just he's talking to people and it's that you know I thought maybe with this one I'd heard that they'd been stalking up on guns and kind of I was worried about some sort of like create at this point he's getting older and maybe he's going to create his own apocalyptic situation like a Jim Jones or wake up. I mean, more like a, yeah, like a branch Davidians thing. Yeah, heaven's gate or something shit. Because that was, you know, it's like self-fulfilling prophecy. Create your own prediction.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, but that, it is the end of that world. Right. You know, and for all those members, it is the end of the world. So I was kind of but yeah, it was a big nothing. And then the next day there was sort of this, they have these kind of like on the compound. They have like a market like street fare type thing, a bizarre.

And I went there and people were like, there was a sense of disappointment but not you know it wasn't the first time and someone was like yeah you know my kids couldn't make it in so I guess I'm glad it happened because a lot of them are genuinely worried

they're kids who are not who've left the group or or never joined or whatever like are all gonna die off wow so that's the consolation well at least like the people I love who aren't here are a lot the world isn't over

yeah you know what I mean but yeah there's some disappointment and he I heard that the leader that Robert said Oh, this was preparation for the real one, the big one, which is, now we know what we still need to figure out. You know, we weren't really ready in time. We didn't get all the solar panels and everything ready. And that one, I last I heard us happening in 2025.

Oh, wow. Get ready. Crazy. Yeah. Okay, so that was 2018. Had you gone back another time? So, so I, at this point. the world didn't end, but I started getting hearing rumors that there were

these sex rituals happening, like large, many-person sex rituals where the leader, because again, the leader, I knew that the leader had been sued by having sex with young male members. And it kind of went away, but I was starting to get the sense that it actually gotten a lot more and that he, somebody told me the first time I heard that I was like, no way. Somebody told me that for his 60th birthday, he had a special event where he had sex with 60 men in one day. And I was like, this is just mythologizing. Turns out it was worse than that.

Wow. Okay. So he is, what is the leader's name again? Robert. Robert. And so he, up until, you know, sort of like your coverage, but kind of like prior to 2018, it was acknowledged that he was just like an openly gay dude. Yeah, I think, well, in the 90s, after, so apparently he was doing this from the beginning.

Okay. And then in the 90s after it became news, like LA Times and Chronicle, San Francisco Chronicle reported on it that he'd had sex with young male members. He was, they were like, all right, yeah, the leader's gay. That's fine. And it's actually, he has holy sex with the members. That's, that's fine. Like, it's consensual. And how young were the reports saying?

The youngest was 17. But like, yeah, men of their like 20s. That first major lawsuit that came out, this guy was, said he was sexually abused by Robert. He was a security guard for the mansion or for Robert's home. And he was sexually abused. And then he started asking around who else had this experience. And he found out a lot of people did, including his own son. No.

Who was 17. Fuck. Yeah. So that's when, and then the guy was like, we're getting. out and they did a lawsuit, they followed the lawsuit. So then it all kind of came out. And then you had all these people who were like, yeah, I had sex with Robert, but it was a holy experience. And it's consensual. Yeah. And also at the time, you know, power dynamics, understanding of that was not what it was. And a lot of these, you know, people were like,

well, it's just a, there was definitely like a stigma around it being like a gay cult. but people were just like, well, it's mostly white men having sex with each other. Like, let's just leave it big. Who cares? Now, what I was sort of able to uncover and also a lot of ex-members are trying to bring attention to was the leader only targets young straight men. He, once he gets them alone, once the grooming happens, all that, he reveals to them he's a goddess in a man's body and kind of conveys that if they deny the guy.

goddess, they will die and go to hell or something bad will happen. So after months or years of grooming, you know, he targets them. And so whether why straight men? I mean, there's different theories. I don't know, like, I don't know if it's, it's a power thing. Um, I don't know if like, I don't know if this is his way of processing his, like true gender identity because he, once he's alone, he says that he's a goddess. I don't know. publicly he identifies as a man. There's a lot, obviously a lot of like, um, you know, he went through a very very, very horrific cult where they, you know, made him beat the gay out of each other. So I don't know what's going on there. But yeah, so he kind of was able to get away with it in the 90s. They just

settled that lawsuit. And they were able to bring in, keep bringing in more and more men. And so he has, I ended up. So back to the doomsday, I, I heard about this. There was like still a lot of sex rituals happening. I realized there was a much bigger story. there and I ended up spending like much of the next three years uncovering basically this like alleged human trafficking operation where they bring in young men from all over the world from these centers in eastern Europe and Latin America all over and through religious visas and they have these sex rituals where the leader tries to have sex with a hundred men in one day. Yeah. So what the hell? Okay. So you go in being like oh this is like a fun little doomsday.

cold, let's see what the vibe is. And then you won't realize after the fact and talking to X members that, oh, there's a much more like insidious criminal and kind of, you know, violent component to the whole thing. Wow. Okay. So once you start going back, do you write anything about this? Like after the apocalypse or failed apocalypse? Like, you don't publish anything. No, no. I knew that, yeah, I wanted to do it as a podcast or a documentary. I went out there for that first trip. And I partnered with like, you know, this is inside baseball, but I partnered with this, this company Vespucci that kind of funds journalism. And I've done a lot of, produced a lot of great work. They gave me sort of the initial funding to look into it. We had the idea

to do it as a podcast. Once I had the doomsday. I'd recorded a lot of, like great audio and interviews. And I knew that there was more to the story, like enough for a real investigative, investigative podcast, we then kind of shopped it around and I ended up partnering with Blumhouse. Yeah, which is a very popular horror studio. Yeah, but and they also do like

documentaries. Excuse me. So they seem, I went to him and I was like this is, when this podcast comes out, you're going to want to develop it into like a horror story because it's sort of strange than fiction and real dark. And so yeah, we ended up partnering on it. and then ended up partnering with Spotify.

But yeah, this is this is a whole other side conversation about just like the nature of journalism now is you kind of have to think like a sort of startup. Yeah. Entrepreneur. Yeah. In order to, because, you know, nobody reads anymore. Yeah. So, so yeah, I didn't, I knew really to get attention. I kind of needed to.

And also, like, I had to, I mean, I needed the money to like legally vet this and fact check it. because I ended up doing like how you had to get insurance in case I mean it's just a whole it's really especially like the fellowship has a long history of suing people and hiring private investigators

and they got money out the wazoo like you know a whole organization like I'm sure pulling money off members compared to just one journalist like yeah it's a this is a monstrous task so 2018 this fake apocalypse happens when do you actually go back to now

blow the roof off of the sex trafficking component. So I kept coming back for like the next three years just doing different. I was like because I want it enough to make a full podcast and also like the like COVID happened then and it became hard.

It just everything changed. So the podcast took longer to make than I expected. But yeah, and it being three years later, the podcast finally came out. that sort of shed light on all of this. Now, did you do research while you were there about the sex rituals?

Yeah, I would talk to ex-members who participated. Or there's one, in the podcast, there's one current member who was involved at the time, who, but these men talked about and corroborated all this of being a part of these rituals. No, this seems risky, right? Like, it's one thing to be like, hey, can I check out your vineyard and look at your mansion?

It's a completely other thing to be like, hey, can I look at like the dirty underworld that they know is fucked up of what you guys are doing? Yeah. And so how do you get access to talking to members about the sex rituals? I mean, it helped that like,

I just kept coming back and building rapport with current and ex-members. And I think people are like, well, he keeps getting welcomed back and the president seems okay with him being here. And they knew, I was talking to ex-members. So everybody just, I don't know.

I just, I don't know how, but everybody sort of got more comfortable with me over time from all sides. Because I think like people are like, we don't really know how it's going to turn out, but they thought I'd give them a fair shake. God. And I think I did.

So yeah, I think like that. And in over, yeah, I just, yeah, I eventually just sort of want everybody over and, you know, building rapport. And, um, wow. I think they didn't realize how, in depth I was gonna go and like all like that I

ended up talking like the chief financial officer who gave me about their numbers and yeah you know he helped me realize like that it was like that there was you know an element of like fraud and that you know how like they were really just doing everything to give the leader what he needed. Okay take me through all. So how did these sex rituals work from talking to ex members to talking to the survivors of the abuse to talking to current members that were abused and a part of the rituals? One, what makes it ritualistic? Like, why is it not just an orgy? And how was it sort of prepared and covered up?

Like, taking it through all the details. Yeah. That's a, so the leader called them love fest. They were kind of a, they're happening on like Valentine's Day, and it was kind of a celebration of love and whatever. That was the, they're thinking. I call it a sex ritual because, like, I don't know, there seems like it was there was like an idea of it was for some sort of spiritual reason like

they had to sort of fuel him i've heard different reasons for how he justified it like he took their seed so that he like energized him to get the seat of his members his students so that's the kind of ritualistic component but um i mean i had people tell me it was it was kind of like the dmv they were all just like waiting in line no waiting for it to you know and they just got called one day they didn't really know what was happening, but, because he has, he sort of has his group of men who he'll travel with, um, as he's like looking for art and stuff around the world. And these are kind of his, and they'll live with him in the mansion. Um, they kind of, they're, they, yeah, they live in the different rooms of the mansion. He, and he has the main bedroom that's like covered with Renaissance art on the ceiling and all

that. Um, and this is sort of like his main harem. Yeah, so we'll have one group that has been called a Haram or Burton's boys or different things. And these are like terms in the group that I wouldn't normally use, but that it's like people know that that's what's happening. Got it. And but for these special rituals, they would kind of call in all the old people who had kind of been pulled out, you know, like who were no longer in the, in that group. But, you know, so he would bring in all the ranks to people who had kind of been done with that for years, didn't really know why they were getting the call, but they knew Robert needed something. So they all arrived. And they got an email, like, it was a secretary that called him.

Like, do you know the detail? He has, like, a couple men who help that are closest to him that, he always has, like, a secretary who, I think, helps him with teachings and keep, you know, and handles his phone and all that. So, but there's also, like, a couple men, and, you know, there's like a whole hierarchy around him, and there's men who, um, who help kind of organize these things. And now, are the men in the inner circle, are they emotional companions or are they purely, like, sexual?

I think there's a lot of emotion I mean I don't I I didn't get You know I Talking to ex-ex members I think there was like an emotional Like they really felt like he was their sort of spiritual dad And he was their teacher Like one guy said you know

It was like it was like my dad My spiritual teacher and All kind of wrapped up in one He's also sort of their landlord You know he's their employer Because they're all getting money from You know they have a lot of them have gotten religious feces To become like ministers

You know they're getting a paycheck So it's like their life is sort of dependent on him. And they left their family in Ecuador or Argentina, and they came here to specifically live with and around these people. Yeah. So, yeah, that's a commone of the newer people. It's like they're living in a country

where they don't really speak the language and they don't understand the immigration system and they're completely dependent on this isolated community. So even if they want to leave, it would be very difficult. I don't know if you can speculate on this, but of these like the inner circle, the boys, as you said, Are they openly gay? Are they presenting with sort of like...

No, I mean, he only... Again, he only targets... He only wants straight men. Only. Yeah, I... It's actually... The group I've heard is very homophobic. The leader teaches that it's cosmically wrong

for men to be with men, women to be with women. This was going back to the 70s. Like, I spoke to one woman who said... She said she joined with her girlfriend, and the leader said, you know, this is cosmically wrong, you can't. Yeah. So that actually makes it harder for men to speak up because it's like baked into the sort of dogma that like being with a man is spiritually wrong.

So there's sort of, I think a lot of people leaving kind of have homophobic tendencies or it's just sort of indoctrinated that that's wrong. So male and male sexual abuse is already very stigmatized and hard to speak out about. I mean, it's a problem in the Catholic Church. and Boy Scouts and but also where it's like this group where it's insane with Catholicism stuff where you say that that's wrong

so it's harder to speak out about it and then also just you know feeling like it makes you less of a man or whatever you know these feelings that are ingrained in us socially so yeah a lot of these men so I had I've heard from numerous men who said yeah

the gay men would kind of joke that or they would say like I I wish that I could have sex with my leader, but he's not interested in me. Yeah, so these are all straight men, but he would dress them very flamboyantly. They all kind of look like his sort of, again, floral Rococo style,

sort of dressed them all and would buy them gifts. Bizar. So the night of this love fest, quote unquote, which I'm trying to figure that out. Like, is he calling it? Because it is a love fest. It's not like, oh, we're doing the, you know, seed ceremony to get power.

I don't know who called it a love fest, but everybody knows them as love fest. Because I could see him basically justifying as saying, like, what we're doing isn't sex. What we're doing is an energy ritual. And obviously, he's using it as power for sex. But to say, oh, this is an energy ritual.

And what you're doing isn't gay. It is, you know, this transfer of energy in order to help me ascend in my consciousness. But it's, if you're calling it a love ritual or a love festival, like it seems like a pretty clear indication that there's like, a sort of felial kind of relationship

happening. Yeah, it's again, people thought it was they viewed it as a sort of holy sex. You know, sex with a teacher was like a way of being. So one of the base teachings, like I said earlier, is like being present. And people thought, oh, I'm just going to be fully present when I'm having this holy sex with my teacher.

And the first time they'd happened, you know, it was very, like, they felt very present because they're being abused. Yeah. So that's how they, you know. Wow. So now is the goddess component where he's sort of representing

as this goddess, is that a part of the love fest to your knowledge? No, I think it was just, I heard different things he would tell people to make them more comfortable. And that was the interesting thing.

It's like talking to different survivors, he kind of told them different things that they said, like, he knew how to get to me. Whatever your thing was. Yeah. And it was like one guy, he said, he was like,

and this is in the podcast, he was like, I was kind of a pirate, I was kind of a rebel. And I was like, first time I heard that he had sex with his students. I was like, no way, man. Like, that's not my thing. Like, that'll never happen. But he got chosen to travel with Robert,

and that was very special. You know, you knew it was like a great honor. So you're, all of a sudden, you grew up in rural Ukraine or whatever. And now you're traveling and you're dressed up really nice. And you're in Rome. Yeah, you get this money to go these amazing dinners. Wow. That's great. And then you're doing that for months or years and you know there's certain boys, men in the group that have special treatment and they kind of go into his room at night and you think there's sex, but you're like, they don't seem too upset. Like what's going on in there? Maybe holy sex is like maybe there's not even a penetration. Maybe it's just it's this, you know, like what am I missing out on? This is all how he described to me and it's in the podcast. And I feel like quoting these guys. But yeah.

but he was like this one guy was like I eventually I was like for year for months or years he's like no way I'll do that and then all of a sudden he's like how come he doesn't he isn't choosing me like what what what what what what's wrong with me like why am I my spiritually deficient in some way um and now years later he's like you know Robert knew he knew like the moment that I was sort of at my weakest and most and that was like the time that he we were like leaving a museum and he took me arm in arm because he had this way of being like grandfatherly and and he asked him, you know, will you, I was thinking maybe you could spend the night with me tonight. And, you know, he was like, here it is. It's come. And so they got in bed and sometimes there was like massaging or something,

but they just went to sleep and he was like, oh, maybe that was it. And maybe this is, because he felt so present. And he was like, maybe this is it. And then, but then he said he woke up and the leader was going down on him and and that's when he was like oh this this is what it is but it would but yeah it was like that it was like he he

it was a compelling interview and he kind of explained that sort of process of how it can happen over years wow um where yeah you feel inefficient if you're deficient in some way if you don't get abused wow yeah I mean it makes complete sense and maybe there's a and like an internalized misogyny in me

where like if you had told me this about a woman I'd be like oh yeah this makes complete sense right there's a woman in a workplace she wants to be an actress like all of these events that predicated like the Me Too movement right you have this power dynamic or

you know imagine there's some Ukrainian model and she meets a rich guy and then he wants to do things to her that she doesn't want to do but she does it anyway because da-da-da this is a story I feel like we've heard a lot and has sort of been kind of like imprinted on

at least me as like an American I'm familiar with this type of rhetoric but I've never really heard it about men. Yeah. But once you sort of lay out the steps where it's like, oh, yeah, you're like a poor dude from Ukraine or a poor guy from Vietnam or whatever. And now you're in this situation where all of a sudden you've been given the world

and you have access and your life is changing. And all you have to do is just, you know, hang out with this guy. And then you have to share a bed with this guy and years are going by. And he's fucking with your brain the whole time and you're sort of getting like inoculated into the group. Yeah. And then it just happens. Right. It makes complete sense.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't until, I think, coverage of the Me Too movement where a lot of these men started even have like the psychological vocabulary to understand what happened to them. I mean, talking to them, for some of them was the first time they'd really opened up or even processed what had happened. And they were like, you know, they say things like at the time, I didn't think it was because he didn't have a gun to my head. But he convinced me over years that if I said,

know that I would die and go to hell or something terrible, what happened to my family or whatever. So it was like he had this sort of cosmic gun. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, now they realize there was a power imbalance. And it's hard to, you can't really consent on when somebody is your landlord, your boss, your God, the reason you came to America, you know, like. Damn. So now that's sort of like the inner circle. Yeah.

The love fest. You get a guy that gives you a. call and says, hey, Robert needs you to show up here at this time. Yeah. It was in the night, I assume. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I don't, I don't know. I think it was this. Oh, no, this was a 24-hour love fest. It would start 9 a.m. until 9 p.m. or something like that. Now, were these men married? Yeah. A lot of them. Yeah. Children? Yeah. So this is a man that has a wife and kids. They're living in a house near the community. Yeah. Or near the compound. Yeah. And he gets a call and says, hey, Robert needs you to show up. Yeah. And these men might be 35, 40 years old. These are not like boys that are 18.

I mean, he has, again, the current, the people who are traveling with him at the time are usually younger. But then for these love fest, they need to call in all the past people of that inner circle. And yeah, they're, you know, they're like with that main case in the 90s, it was a guy who was abused and his son was abused. So sometimes it's like kids who were born in the fellowship. That's the new. Of course. And they're groomed, I'm sure, from day one. which I want to ask about.

So then these guys show up to the compound and they are waiting outside. Do they have to dress a certain way? Is it all at the same time, like simultaneously? Or is it one by one? I don't know if they, I think they probably just dress normally because they didn't know what was happening.

I mean, I think if you know you're doing something special for Robert, you're probably going to dress up a little nicer. But, yeah, they apparently, like one guy described it as waiting in line of the DMV. he usually he'll he does like I think it'll be five at a time um and uh so it's kind of like these group where I mean he um he's always the receiver so I uh you know he people he I think it's like oral and anal and um and that's something there's like biting and yeah it's like um but it's like this group sex and apparently like people like are kind of um

Yeah, coming in and Yeah. And he's the recipient of it. Yeah, that's, yeah. Yeah. Bizarre. Because he's like, I think like receiving the energy of the seed. Is there a disease element?

Like, are they wearing protection? I've heard of outbreaks of different things. Really? Yeah, that I didn't. I try not to get, I know you kind of can't help but like think about the semantics and the questions. The logistics.

Like, how does it even work? I try not to like, I'm getting survivors to open up about this. Like there were certain things that I'm trying to I need to corroborate. Like what did he say? Because a lot of,

it was interesting that he said the same thing, different people, like the goddess in a man's body. And like that, finding these patterns helps me corroborate. But there's a certain point when it's just kind of like, you don't need to ask a survivor for like certain details of their abuse.

Yeah, so there are some gray areas. And I'm, I don't want to be pressed to fill in those gaps. But yeah, you also can't help because it just sounds like, yeah, this Dionysian orgy. Like, it's very dark. Like, you want to, you can't help but picture it. But yeah, it was like five, six at a time.

It was like group and then they'd kind of be done and he would, they'd come out. And in the podcast, the guy says he, both people said that he probably got to like, there's like two men that are in the podcast talking about. it and they said he got to like 70 before he was just so worn out he just like physically couldn't keep doing it but what the fuck and this has been going on for years and is still currently going on to your knowledge I so yeah in the beginning it was kind of like one it I talked to early members who said you know he would kind of get a tap on the middle of the night and they'd have to go in and this uncomfortable experience would happen and then he started and then

in the 90s when it came out and they had to for that major lawsuit and they had to set they settled but then that was it so he I think then he like they really he was able to keep this like sort of addiction kept growing

and they had to like bring in not just for his sexual desires but also like I mean they built this in this amazing huge vineyard they carved it out of a mountain it's like this terrorist vineyard I mean it was like slave labor

you know nobody's getting paid um and then for the the harvest, like everybody would come from around the world to pick grapes, and that's why they were able to have this amazing, robust vineyard. But, like, they have these ornate gardens and everything. You need cheap or slave labor.

So that's why they're bringing in all these people from other countries. I mean, this is just crazy. This is blowing my mind. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick, because I need to tell you how to get your health and control, okay, with this thing right here. It's called whoop. I love it. I didn't think I was going to be a big whoop guy. I tried it out like a year ago and I haven't taken it off since. I got a bunch of

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slash camp. Let's get back to the show. So after you put this out and you sort of expose what's going on, speaking with ex-members, talking to people that are even currently involved, is there a police investigation? Like, is this technically non-consensual? Like, this is such a bizarre gray area. Because obviously these men are manipulated, but they're also, they are engaging in it in a very active way. Yeah.

So I'm curious, like, what the law kind of has to say about that. Yeah. It's, you know, there were people who tried to blow the whistle in the past, and nobody ever really took it seriously. It's really hard to, because, you know, we have great First Amendment rights in this country, you know, freedom of press, but also, like, freedom of religion. I mean it was a religious organization and these were sort of part of that Ice and the so yeah there was a huge investigation for seven years it was ice and the DEA joined for a bit because there was kind of like some of the members were growing weed and I think that was kind of their way to like to like legitimately like poke around

yeah I did a freedom of information request it got this like full report they rated the compound. This was like 2007. It shows that they asked members who'd gotten religious visas what was going on and they determined they were being paid very low wages. It seems like they didn't ask them anything about sex or maybe. I mean, it seems like they all kind of knew what to say. The members knew what to say to not get in trouble. But yeah, ultimately they weren't able to prove that there was, I mean, they'd gotten a tip about human trafficking. So they, they went looking for sex trafficking and ultimately determined that there was, um, immigrants there for low wages, non-citizens there for low wages. Having to perform sexual acts on the leader.

They didn't go into that. Nothing in the report really looked into that. How do you go for sex trafficking and not ask about the sex part? In the report, they were saying that we, we talked to ex-member. I don't, I don't know. Um, it was really hard to find out, you know, to get much with that. So I know that they've been on the radar of, you know, the government for a long time. after this so in after the podcast came out uh last year um a law firm who they they took on um some of the catholic church archdiocese and boy scouts and other in other organizations they kind of one of the things they specialize is like systemic abuse within institutions and they recently filed a a pretty major lawsuit against the fellowship.

And so there's a group of ex-members who allege human trafficking and like the, it's a lot of the stuff that's, what was first reported in my podcast and my reporting is in this lawsuit. So I think, you know, maybe that, that kind of, it came out,

I can't say like, you know, but, but yeah, came out. Like, it was after the podcast and it's a lot of the allegations in there. And yeah, so a group of men are finally speaking out and taking on the fellowship. Wow. Now, I just want to kind of be clear. The abuse is typically happening to of age men. This is not necessarily pedophilic. After that first lawsuit in the 90s, where it was a minor, they changed it where you had to be 18 to be a member. And my thinking is maybe they thought if we put up kind of some sort of guardrails for him.

It'll keep us out of legal trouble. Yeah. But, you know, thinking about abuse and power dynamics was very different than, yeah. So, and I have heard there are younger members and I don't know. But, yeah, these are mostly men in their 20s and 30s. Got it. And did you ever talk to the leader? I got close.

I kept asking. You know, and I think I heard different things. I think like they didn't want me. I got the sense they were kind of worried that he would embarrass himself or like embarrass the group or you know people kept telling me you're his type

like be careful members said this ex members would say that yeah there was a very eerie moment where I was at this sort of

jazz event it was like in the garden it was before some sort of, I think a Shakespeare performance or something. And there's just like, outside his mansion, there's this big garden that's modeled after the gardens of Versailles. And there's fountains and statues. And it's like a weird like Alice in Wonderland type feeling. But we're next to this fountain and there was like jazz playing and champagne and hors d'oeuvres. And we're all

sitting around. And this was when I was like pretty deep in the sauce, you know, because like people were sort of love bombing me, you know, like, I'm sitting at this intimate, there's all these little dinners and like, uh, or these, um, tables and, and they're laughing at everything I say. And they're like, oh, you're like, you're like one of the students. And, you know, I'm dressed up too. Um, and there's all these weird rules. Like you, you can't chew while other people are talking. You have to, like, take a bite and put your, um, your, uh, utensils to the side. And so it's kind of like you're, you kind of start to feel like a robot, you know, because you're, you know, you know, you're not eating much and you're not just, you're thinking more about the things.

So I was really feeling the kind of, that whatever, the drug, the like, I was feeling very present, as they would have said. And then all of a sudden, the leader arrives and he has this like entourage of young men that are dressed well. And they all stood this table next to me. And I, this guy sitting next to him comes up to me and he's holding a picture on. his phone and it's this black and white picture and he's like you look just like I did when I was your age can I take a picture of you so it takes a picture of me and then he goes back to Robert and my guest or my my escort Jack was like I think that's that's Robert's Admiral and he's kind of he's probably doing intel for Robert so I don't know if that was like who's this stranger

on my compound or if he was interested but it was a very eerie thing to know that the leader had clocked me and was asking about me and, like, wanted a photo of me. Bizarre. Yeah. Was there ever a moment where you felt he was courting you or wanted you to somehow be involved? That was the closest that, I mean, again,

the president, every time I asked, people are like, oh, he's no longer capable of communicating, doing that kind, like that kind of, an interview. Like, so he, if you, if you listen to his, people leaked to me, his teaching, like, he has these meetings

where he's talking for hours. And it's, I had recordings from early days that kind of made sense and he's talking about the angels and I'm like, yeah, I get it. Like Shakespeare maybe had some sort of, you know. There's a story. There's something cogent.

Yeah. And over time, it's gotten more like, he's gotten more into like numerology and he's like counting, looking to the paintings and counting the numbers and like it's, it, if you're an outsider, it kind of sounds like gibberish.

I don't know if it's cognitive decline, or if he just nobody really questions what he says, so he just kind of rambles. I don't know what's going on, but they see it as like he's sort of so on a higher level that he's no longer like, he's just a higher conscious. He's not able to dumb it down enough for us earthlings.

Right. So they were like, it would be impossible from doing an interview. And I agree. Like it would probably, he's, he's, a total outsider asking questions is not something he's really encountered in a long time. Yeah. He's been in this bubble.

So I agree, an interview would probably, not make sense, but I think that was their excuse because they sort of knew we would not look good to the out. Because I think everybody thought, because anytime there is some sort of coverage, they sell a lot of wine because the wine is great. Like I hate to give them PR, but like it's really good wine. They were, when I was reporting on this, I heard that the New Yorker given them, the president was like, I just got a call from the New Yorker fact checker. The president runs the business side in the vineyard. And I was like, fuck, I'm getting scooped. Like this is a New Yorker.

Like they, you know, like they, scooped means. Scooped means like somebody else's beat me to the story. Like some, New Yorkers get, and this is, they had just done like, you know, I mean, they, you know, they, you know, they exposed, you know, the New Yorker. Like, they, and their fact checking is, like, famous for, like, being very thorough. But, yeah, I mean, they, they, they exposed, like, Weinstein. And, like, I was like, fuck, they're, they're coming for this sex cult. And, um, turns out it was, uh, it was a, it was a story about, um, there was a story about, it was a story

about natural wine and how they were kind of pioneers of it because they are they're um which i love natural wines yeah give it a shot it's good you know uh well okay what i'll say is uh so the guy their their their wine master or their their wine maker who he was it was the time when like um wine was being kind of industrialized and a lot of chemicals and in california was like the californian wine boom yeah and they were like because i think the the the, the, the, the, They didn't want to do that to their, and they had against slave labor, so they could just kind of really. So, and I'm, you know, the land was sacred. And so they, they went, they just did it all natural. And, um, that winemaker, uh, kind of became an icon because he was doing it early on. And now he is

left and he's making his own wine, Gideon Beanstalk. Uh, he, you can have his wine that is separate, that is not funding the fellowship. Yeah. Um, but his wine, the wine that he made at, uh, at, at, at, at, uh, at the the fellowship and their their vineyard is their wineries called renaissance um it's it's kind of scene is very uh yeah it's very well it was very celebrated at the time yeah i don't know i wouldn't want to try like the the love fest chablis you know what i mean like that feels i don't know what's in there um yeah so i oh what i was getting at is like they uh they they i think they thought you know we're gonna if it's good or bad it won't hurt us we've been through everything we might at least sell some wine.

And so I think they kind of wanted to keep me within some sort of boundaries. And by talking to him... It would have opened up too much. Yeah. And if I made it look bad, like, whoever had made the decision to let me talk to him would probably get in trouble or, you know. And then just briefly, the finances. How did the money work? Yeah, they... So everybody has to give 10%, you know, a tithing. So that's at the very least. And a lot of people, you know, they're making really good money. money. It was like, I think there was somebody in the Tudor family was involved at one point.

There was like a... Like the English aristocracy? Yeah, there was a lot. Yeah. There was a lot of people who came from generational wealth had a lot of money or good jobs. Robert really wanted people to be doctors and lawyers and artists and, you know, they're, so they're getting in a lot of money from that. Also, everything costs like all these dinners to get a photograph with Robert costs like a bucks at every event. So they're always, they're like really bleeding you everything. And he, the more money you get, the more favorable treatment. Even, like, he only shows up to certain funerals. They have like a funeral on the compound and they get buried in the cemetery. I sort of got the

sense he shows up if you, if you donate all your money to him after you die. No way. Or if you, if you give money for some building that ends up maybe not actually going to the building. So even in death, it's kind of this sign that, like, you have to pay to play. So I imagine if you're a funeral and Robert's not there, and you know that person didn't have any money left over because they'd spend it all on doomsdays or whatever. Yeah, that's a, you know, it's a sign. And the correct of me from wrong, but these members, or a number of them, had basically infiltrated Google?

So, yeah, this came out. After the podcast came out, I got a lawyer reached out that was like, wanted to talk or maybe me be sort of an expert witness or something that said they had kind of infiltrated this company and there was some sort of discrimination happening within. That didn't surprise me. I'd heard about that happening before. Like they'd done another company. and I knew that they'd have been involved in, like, early tech companies

because they were, you know, started in San Francisco in the 70s. But I was surprised when I found out it was Google. So how does a cult infiltrate Google? So it, I remember the guy had been there forever. He has been in the group forever. He got a job there. Because, again, a lot of them were like early tech people. He just got a good job.

And in one business unit, the um uh i think they do like videos for marketing team or something um so it's a you know google's very big and it was like one business unit that he got there and he was only hiring other allegedly this is what came out from a whistleblower they were kind of only there was preferential hiring for other for only other members um they would have events where they were hiring fellowship um contractors and like ordering fellowship wine um And this guy, Kevin Lloyd, he worked at Google the time. And he started noticing like, all these people come from the same place.

And they all dress the same, like what's going on. And he finally put it together and he was very sick, like knowing this, that he was working with all these people who were a part of something that seemed to be very corrupt. And so he told his superior and says he was fired after that. So he- Was superior a part of it? I... Allegedly? I...

No, I think he just was kind of like, don't mess with it. Or maybe that guy's superior was or something. He's also like, what, you're asking me to fire the whole department. Right. Like, we have 15 guys that are here. Yeah, yeah. Like, they had a good thing going. They're doing a great job.

And I don't give a shit who they're banging on the side. Like, but now you're going to ruin our whole thing. Yeah. I don't... Yeah, I don't know what happened. And I'm like, that's a lawsuit. I'm not... Because it was after my reporting, you know?

So, like, I followed it. Like, I spoke to New York Times because it ended coming out in the New York Times. So I was like quoted that. I was sort of, I was tracking it, but I can't speak as like, I have to be more cautious because I mean, I'm afraid of religious groups suing me, but I'm even more afraid of a big tech corporation. Yeah, completely reasonable. Yeah, yeah. And so now since you published a story, the podcast came out. It got, you know, hundreds of thousands of people are watching this consuming and learning about this whole thing.

it seems like there's pretty bad press for this organization were there ever any points where you felt your life was in danger or you felt that the organization was coming for you? No, I think they, in the past, when stuff has come out, they were very, like I, they would sue people who spoke out

and I talked to ex-members who said they would hire a private investigator to threaten them and follow them. Now I think they just kind of bury their head in the sand. I think they're, they don't have the war chest that they used to.

And the president told me he said if I'd been involved back then I wouldn't have sued the L.A. Times because the news organizations have such freedom of the press is so strong in this country. It's kind of pointless. So I think that they're just like, they've learned

it's just better to not to not give attention to it. That's interesting. So yeah, that one I, I've been, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's been more groups that are very online and like younger, like this, this place, they've, they've, they've, they've, they've, they've, they've, they've, got their own thing going. Um, it's the groups that are online that, that, that, like, file lawsuits or whatever. Interesting. Yeah, I guess

this group has been around the block so much that they're like, look, article comes out, it doesn't affect our ability to recruit. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't hurt us in any way negatively. No one's getting arrested. And it's helping us sell wine, you know, like, even at worst, like, it's not going to hurt our wine sales. Yeah. I mean, I push back on that because I hope I'm not like, I have no objective. I really, you know, my, when I go into a project, I just want people to know what's going on. And especially if there's, like, abuse or whatever, like, I, I just want to shed light on things.

You talk to a lot of people who talk about being hurt. And I think there, you can't help but be a little hopeful for what happens. Well, you did such a thorough job that now there's an open lawsuit. So this is what I was going to say like I... That could actually change the abuse that's happened. Yeah, and I know that um, so there's somebody who ran a blog, uh, it was like a bunch of ex-members who would post things. Um, and, uh, a lot of, it's like years of great citizen journalism that I pulled from,

from, you know, and I would talk to these people and verify it and stuff, but there's like ex-members who've been posting on these blogs for years that did, we've been trying to expose it. Um, so I was, um, so I was. really standing on the shoulders of giants, you know, before that. But, uh, anyway, the person who runs that blog, uh, he, I also want to note that that, um, that blog went down, uh, like, it was like a Google hosted blog and it went down after, um, after all the Google stuff came out. Weird. Uh, so, you know, add that to your conspiracy theory. Um, but, uh, he would show me who was going,

like the the site visits and a lot more government and legal agencies were looking checking the site after the podcast came out like I mean we're talking so I do I think there was more people looking into it and yes this lawsuit so I

all that to say like I think more attention came than just like telling I don't think that they just I think they're yeah they got more scrutiny and I didn't just help them sell them sell wine That's a fair, that's a fair counterpoint. Yeah, I guess when the coverage is like, oh, look at this mystical, bizarre, high-class cult, or a high-class organization, that probably doesn't do much. Yeah.

But when there's a very much like a thorough, in-depth investigation, then there's a real potential for change. Yeah, there had been, a fair correction. There'd been an article a few years before this in San Francisco Chronicle that really went into the wine and kind of glossed over the abuse stuff and the New Yorker thing kind of, there was a parenthetical that said it had been, there had been some abuse. So I think... Oh, so they acknowledged it. The New York...

Yeah, I mean, they were like, oh, in the 90s, there was some... And the reporter did this, she's an amazing crime, like, true crime, and, like, she's one of my icons as far as a journalist. I think she just got assigned a... Dude, this natural wine thing. A natural wine thing, and she wanted to work in this crazy cult thing.

So it is not, like, it is not a slight on the New Yorker. I was just, like, really worried that it was going to be something much more. something much more in depth on the sex abuse. Interesting. But I get scooped. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because you need a clean and healthy alternative

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Put your body in ketosis. If that's what you're trying to do, now let's get back to the show. Can you explain to me who teal swan is? Yeah, she's kind of how I got on this whole journey of reporting on more kind of spiritual phenomena. She is a spiritual teacher. She's also kind of like,

she was one of the early sort of spiritual teachers to become more of like an influencer, a YouTuber, Instagram. I mean, now that's like incredibly common. I mean, you can't throw a rock in Austin without like hitting 20 of these. But she was

kind of a pioneer. I mean, using um, uh, you know, YouTube and Instagram and now she's sort of blowing up on TikTok. Um, now she is. Well, yeah. I mean, with, I mean, she's evolved. But when I first started reporting,

on her. She was new to that. And I was, yeah, Gizmodo kind of writing about more internet culture stuff. And I thought she would be kind of an interesting person to start reporting on to see how she was kind of building this new brand of spirituality online. And she was controversial. Like she was, people were accusing her of pushing people to kill themselves. And she had a lot of YouTube videos about suicide and self-harm and darker topics. So I was intrigued and started reporting on her, but then there was just so much nuance and messiness to this story. We thought like an investigative podcast would really be the best way to kind of dive into some of these topics. So we did it as a podcast. I ended up spending a year and went out to her Healing Center in Costa Rica, spent a lot of

time with her. And then after that podcast came out, it was developed into a show on Hulu Freeform called The Deep Ends. When we ended up filming her for three years, or this other like this production company and director, they kind of took it a whole different, they gave it a whole different sort of direction and spent all this time with her. But after that is when I sort of started getting just flooded with tips. Like my DMs are just like a garbage fire of spiritual trauma, like, where people are constantly, I mean, it's a blessing and a curse. Like, as a journalist, it's good to have constant tips of things to look into, but, yeah, I never know. Someone was just dumping on you, like, hey, I was abused by this person. Yeah.

Like, what, is this real? Should I call the police? Like, this is insane. I could imagine. Yeah. So, this woman, if I was someone that got involved in her organization or was sort of lured into her healing practices, what would be the steps that I would have fallen into? Yeah, well, that's the way I got, I got sort of pulled into her was, like I said earlier at the time, I was reporting on kind of dark things and YouTube was recommending these videos about suicide and stuff. And I was in, she, in them, she looks deep into the screen. She has this sort of swirly, hypnotic background. Her voice is very droning and hypnotic. And it's easy to just kind of get sucked into watching these videos. And that's when I was like, my spidey senses were like, she's doing something unique and maybe disturbing.

I don't know. I want to know what's going on. But yeah, I think a lot of people, they would just, and now it's happening all over with TikTok and Instagram stories where they kind of get recommended her videos. And she's very alluring. And so they'll just keep watching. And I talked to some people who they said they watched her YouTube videos or they put them on in the background as they were sleeping. It just kind of becomes a constant. And so her teachings really come in in a different way. And you hear this, with like old cult leaders and spiritual gurus where you go to these meetings and conferences and you kind of it puts you to sleep like hearing these people talk it's very droning and that way you're kind of like you're in this sort of sleep state but the information is still coming in and it's a good way to indoctrinate um do you really think that that's a that's a like almost

like a hypnotic education like you become in sort of like this liminal conscious non-conscious state i mean that's there are so-called cult experts who have said that I mean, I'm not an expert on the psychology of it. But yeah, I think like it's, there are all these kind of easy sort of mind control, which is a loaded term. But like, yeah, different ways to like really indoctrinate somebody. I think that can be effective, you know, where you're kind of like you're getting the information and you're there, but you're sort of lulled to sleep. Wow. But, you know, it's like there is this kind of balance of like, used to be you had to go to a,

on a spiritual pilgrimage or go to a get go to like a business meet marketing thing whatever like find a book you had to meet someone yeah the contagion had to be one to one in real life yeah but now the contagion for these sort of ideas and these ideological groups can happen and proliferate like exponentially through through digital yeah yeah and uh she was doing that early on where she was kind of using some of those techniques i think that really hook somebody for better or worse i mean i think uh she has probably helped a lot or a lot of people probably say that she helped them but it was She was using, she was really smart with how to use the internet and YouTube to, she just put out videos about everything. She, when I was reporting on her, and this was like 2017, I mean, she had videos about like,

weight loss and chakras and crypto and self-harm and, like, everything. Like, she was just pumping them out. And so there, anytime you're looking for something, you know, there's a Teal Swan video. Yeah. And people would tell me, you know, I put my intention to the universe and YouTube delivered. her this video. And I was like, I don't know if that's the universe. I think that's just, you know, the algorithms and good SEO. And, um, and then she told me she was using SEO that she knew people, like, especially like suicide and self-harm. That's something that if you, there's not,

people are, there's so much stigma there that people are afraid to talk about it. Um, so there was a period where if you Googled, I want to kill myself. The first video that popped up was Teal Swans YouTube. I want to kill myself, parentheses, what to do if you're suicidal. I mean, this seems like a good video, though. Like, I would hope that if you are someone that is having ideation, you would click on this video, and this person would say, hey, your parents love you, and there's so much more to live for, and life's amazing, and you're going through a depressive episode, and maybe you should see clinical help. Yeah. That's what I want the video to say. Yeah.

Is that what the video said? No. No. Damn. Yeah. Can you paraphrase what the video said? So it's, it's, she, in it there, I mean, there's a lot of, that's a problem. It's like hard to be the one to condense everything.

that somebody says or so about. But there was, there was, there was, library of work. I don't want she to be the

arbiter of everything she says. Right, but she would, she was accused of romanticizing suicide basically, you know, saying, she would say things like it's a reset button.

It feels very good to die. Don't be afraid of death. Yeah, because she's, she's lived many lives and she would, she knows, she apparently knows how it can feel good to die

and that it can feel like a reset. But she won't necessarily say like, and you should do it. But she would be like, it was like this balance. Like it feels very good to die. I understand why you want to do it, but you shouldn't.

But, you know, it's like this, it was like this weird. Yeah. So, and it, I think it helped because, you know, I talked to people who,

they went through a really dark time in their life and like spirituality helped them out of it. But a lot of spirituality at the time was very woo-woo and optimistic. And she was one that made a safe space for these darker topics.

Now, have you used the C word when referring to her? Not that. the other the other seeword. I never called her a cult leader. I think since that came out, more people have, I don't know,

I think like she, where I landed on that is like she kind of challenged my view of like what it means to be like a cult in the modern age. Like I think, I don't know. But yeah, she's been accused of being exploitative and a cult leader and stuff. But I see her more as like a spiritual

leader that was doing something very, very unique at the time. So now could you give me and for any of the potential, you know, audience that's, like, sort of interested in these kinds of ideas, what would be a healthy framework to discern between someone that is, you know, maybe a cult leader that's, you know, proliferating their ideas through digital? And maybe someone that is like a genuinely, you know, good actor that is putting out like positive mental health information or spiritual information of the world. What would be sort of like a checklist or criteria that I could be. look at to discern. Yeah, I, there are, again, like, there's good, there's people who really

lean into, like, Steve Hassan, Janja Laylitch, these are cult experts that have their own kind of guides. Sure. Rick Ross. Rick Ross. Rick Ross, not that Rick Ross. Sorry. Yeah, I know it's, those are kind of the three. Ricky Rose. That's crazy, dude. Joe Zimhardt is another, anyway, I just want to give them credit and, like, say, if you're like listening, you know, kind of look to them and their guides. Got it. For the breakdown of what, you know, whether you're in a cult or not. Um, I think like, anytime where there's kind of like unquestionable, like a power balance and you're

kind of giving just a higher authority to somebody and then there's, you know, that leaves room for predatory behavior. Um, but yeah, what was the, like, how can you discern? Like, I think there's like, uh, at least I have an awareness of like these old like 80s, you know, style cult videos and it's like, I don't know if you're in a cult and they're on VHS and it's like, you know, love bombing. You show up at an organization and you say something, they all cheer for you and they say welcome home and you're at your place you're supposed to be. And, you know, when you join us, you become more like yourself.

Yeah. And then they slowly start isolating you from your family and then they kind of cut you off and then maybe they get blackmail on you where they put you in a compromising situation, da-da-da-da-da-da. Again, these are all in physical spaces. Right. And now we're in this digital age where all of it can happen digitally, which is almost potentially more concerning because as we know, we are in this loneliness epidemic.

Like, you know, specifically amongst like men, I think women as well, I don't know, someone quote me on these statistics. Like the rates of men that claim they have one or two close friends have been going down and down and down. People are more socially fragmented. Obviously, I think religion and nationalism and sort of like these greater ideas that people attach themselves to have kind of eroded socially. And so now it feels like people are kind of belonging.

So I could definitely see a situation where there is a digital guru. Absolutely. And then people are able to congregate in these digital spaces. Yeah. And they're already isolated from their family. You don't even have to do anything. And then, hey, submit some money. We're going to do a retreat.

That-da-da. So I guess I'm kind of curious, like, you know, how can I make sure that... Because there's a lot of people I follow on the Internet that I really, really like. That, like, you know, psychologists and, you know, thought leaders and authors online, I'm sure we can think of, you know, 20 people. And a lot of which I really like. Yeah. So how do I know if these people have my best interest in mind?

Is there, like, a delineating thing or a phrasing or a terminology I should be. you know, like red flag. Yeah. And they could start from a good place and go. I mean, one of the, this was in the Vow, the nexium cult. One of the whistleblowers in it, Mark Vecente says, it's kind of the iconic quote from that show is nobody joins a cult. They join something they think is really good. You know, you think you're changing the world.

And so it could start from a lot of these YouTubers or whatever. It could start from a good place. And then it gets dark as power corrupts them or whatever. I think to answer your question, one of the groups that I've been investigating most recently, that really seems to have all the hallmarks of something very concerning that's happening entirely online, that it's very clear that it's isolating people and ruining families. Is this, the leader, her name is Leanna Ashanti. I did a big article that came out last year, but I'm doing more ongoing reporting about it because since the article came out, I've just been flooded with more and more people. And it's so much bigger than I thought. But she, it's a group that caters that, that really seem to target like women, mothers.

It, it's, she's been around forever. It's, um, how do I? So it was created by this, this former Wall Street lawyer who, uh, she became sort of a, a, a, built this, like, online persona that's totally separate from who she really is. So in the avatars are like, not. really don't seem to be a depiction of who she really is. It's almost like she created this sort of fictional character or this alternate version of herself entirely online.

And she was giving kind of empowerment advice, business advice, like health advice. And over the years, it kind of became more extreme. And then during COVID, it became extremely extreme. It became like, so she, it started like saying, like, don't use Zoom, because that's how they kind of can capture your soul or whatever. They being...

There's a race of reptilian overlords that feed that, you know, they're Luciferian, Satanic. They feed off of our energy. And COVID was all a part of that. And they're going to round up your children in the FEMA camps and give them the force of the vaccine, which kills your soul. And if you go near anybody who's been vaccinated, it sheds on you and kills your soul.

Obviously, that stuff, didn't happen, but her story keeps kind of evolving, much like you see with a lot of these sort of conspiracy cults. It's very like QAnon adjacent. I call it, I mean, I'm not the first to, but like Wu-Anon is kind of a new. It's like these, you know, conspiratuality type groups. Wow. That's an interesting term. Conspiratuality. Yeah. There's a podcast called Conspiratuality that dives into all of and it's they they really go deep on probably

a lot of the people that you listen to or respect I mean they really they're like just such nerds about it of conspiratuality that's a separate topic but this this group it was like all these especially during COVID

whereas like these moms who you know they were stuck in with her husbands and like shit was coming out you know like just being cooped up with somebody with kids and this leader had them all listen to these online courses over and over. I mean, they pay a lot for these courses and they're just, and I've talked to these husbands that are like my partner just like transformed overnight because you just would be out in the yard listening to these courses

and started accusing them of horrible things. And I mean, fast forward, it's like this group that's around the world. It's called like, they're called like Lamarion sisters. and they've all sort of been pulled into this group and a lot of them, Leanna sort of urged them to take their kids by sort of basically any means necessary and move them to Florida

because there's only a few, there's three safe states in the world. It's Texas, Wyoming, and Florida, and Florida's the safest because there's going to be this sort of big apocalyptic thing involving the vaccine or whatever. And so they all kind of, were moving into these homes together.

Do you know where in Florida, roughly? It doesn't matter. I mean, they, they, I think there was one major home called Destiny Manor that I think it was. Tallah. Yeah, I don't want to. Yeah, but they, it's basically just,

just get to these certain places. And they were kind of based on where the restrictions were the least strict. But, uh, it's, it just, I mean, it was like,

dozens, if not hundreds of, of moms were kind of pulled into this and it was like entirely online it started through Facebook and then it kind of migrated to private signal groups and now she has their own app and they keep buying these programs and it's also sort of run like a multi-level marketing like they have to sell the programs other people um but it's its own isolated community where i mean and she would say like only listen to um media that i share in the facebook group and so she would share clips of podcasts that kind of fit with her teachings, which was constantly evolving. There's

always like new kind of boogeyman ripped from the headlines. You know, it's like first it's the vaccine, but then once that kind of moved on, she would, it was different things that she was telling people to, to worry about that could harm your children. Um, and then, oh, it was like one big, and if anybody like questions her, they kind of get kicked out and then all of their, their, like, Confessions will get posted. So, like, one woman, she was like, when Leanna was like, don't listen to any other podcast, no media that I, unless I posted here, she was like, what about Joe Rogan? I thought you liked Joe Rogan.

And she's like, I can't believe you questioned me. She started in this, because there's this nature of confessions, which is common with a lot of groups, it's like, we're your therapist now, tell us all your dirty secrets. also here are some sort of dirty secrets that you don't even remember, you know, that happen. And, like, you get people thinking, like, oh, I can't believe I was, I did these terrible things and they confessed to them. And then you have, like, recorded, you know, some groups that I'm not going to say public, you know, they're, like, have been accused of, like, getting people to record things or even fake things about their family to, because then you have this, like, collateral that if you leave, then they'll

share this information. Wow. So now through these Facebook groups where there's this sense of, like, we all have to confess all of our sins. So you have, Leanna has like all these things, like people's posting these terrible things that they've done or that have happened to them, true or not. And then once they leave or they get kicked out

because they want to listen to Joe Rogan or whatever, she will then post them on, because on her Instagram, she has like 23,000, 27,000 followers. And she's posting all day, every day, all these conspiracy theories and her teachings. And then once she, somebody gets kicked out,

there like an example of like Satan got them. So she'll start posting all their confession like screenshots of their confessions and like tagging their employers or their family members. Um, it just, yeah. So it's, it, she's an example of how in the past you really had to be like, if you were had tendencies of a cult leader, sociopathie, narcissism, whatever, you still had to put in a lot of work and like everything kind of had to align for you. Um, Now you can just kind of become a pariah on social media or kind of the algorithm sort of brings people who may be receptive to your messaging to you and that power can kind of corrupt you. And then you can sort of, you see this now, like even on TikTok, people kind of become like many

spiritual cult leaders because they get canceled or something. And then for saying something out of mainstream and then all of a sudden people are like flocking to them. And then that kind of power like overnight they have all this power and influence. and then you see them sort of become more radical and pull people more into radical thinking. So not only is it making it easier to sort of create a cult leader online,

it's easier to do all the sort of have the tools of a cult where you're collecting collateral very easily by people posting things on Facebook or whatever, and then you can more easily weaponize that collateral by posting and tagging employers. And it used to be like a group would have to, this is a common tactic of a group that I will not name, but like, they'll get all this intel and all your confessions, and then

they'll start a website with your name, buy all of all the domains. It's also like what doxers do, or, you know, like internet trolls. You know, they buy all the domain names and they'll post your confessions or, and now you can just easily do that on your phone. So this is a situation that could happen where, you know, like 2019, you're married to a woman, she has a baby. You have a family. you have two kids. And then all of a sudden she is a little skeptical of all the things happening around, you know, COVID policy. She's looking...

Understandably so. Sure. It's a crazy-ass time. Yeah, it's insane. There's all this conflicting information. No one knows what's going on. Yeah. All the institutions of like social trust are kind of gone.

You know, like who do we look to as like our guiding light in this? Maybe historically it could have been religion. It could have been a litany of different things. So now people are sort of lost. They're online. Uh, your wife is now listening to this one woman that has all the answers. And she's figured it out and she's listening not all day, nonstop. And then one morning you wake up and your wife and your kids are gone. Yeah. And you're like, hey, where are you?

The numbers blocked. Her phone line is dead. And then you find out that she moved your kids, basically kidnapped them, moved them to a place in Florida. And now she's living in this quasi-digital, somewhat real group where now she's telling secrets about her trauma, her life, and all of this is used as collateral against her to where she can't leave. You summed it up better than me. That was a pretty clear pattern that was happening.

That's been happening. I mean, that is heartbreaking. Yeah. For everyone involved. But like obviously, I'm thinking about it from like the dude's perspective. Like my wife and kids are now gone. Yeah.

And hey, even if you're able to get a hold of her, like, babe, you got to get out of this. What are you doing? She's like, look, I want to leave, but I told them this and they have pictures of this and they know about this. And if I leave, they could buy up a domain and leak all of it.

and it's happened before and I don't know what's more. I mean, for me, it's the kids that are wrapped up in this. Yeah. Because, but yeah, it's a lot of dads that their lives are completely.

And also there's, they're in view, it involves a lot of accusations, like against the father for doing horrible things. And I can't, I don't know that all these guys aren't great or terrible.

Like, I'm not gonna, I'm not here to absolve all these men, but there's a pattern of most women who join Leanna helps them realize the men were abusing the children. Either legitimately, like some of these men might be scumbags

or illegitimately. I can't, I don't know. But what the pattern is, like, they'll post on, so there's a signal group where they get to post like questions and she can read the Akashic Records, which is the information of the universe.

It's kind of like a spirituality thing. She reads the Akashic Records and she'll answer their questions. And so I saw a lot of instances. People would leak these to me. And it's like, I, um, my, my son is wetting the bed. What did it? What, why?

And it's like, well, because the father, they were sexually abused. Um, and then you're like, why would this woman make this up? She must, she must know. Like, who, to who just makes that up? And he is wetting the bed. There's, there's proof. Like, I have something substantial that I can stand on. Yeah.

And it's, but it's just the, yeah, the. There are many reasons that, yeah. But she's able to loop it back and sort of like kind of gaslight them in a way into believing that there's something nefarious happening, when there might have been nothing happening. Right. And I, like, one, this is in the reporting, one woman who, she kind of helped me understand the whole scope.

So she got into it because, and she's one that, now she's out of it. But she was, it was her third pregnancy. She was having postpartum issues, a lot of weird weight fluctuation and feeling like not in a good place. And doctors, she sort of felt like gaslit by mainstream medicine. You know, doctors like, this is just in your head. She's like, I don't want to feel this way.

I'm not making this up. She went looking online. She found the front group, which is the Health Mastery Institute, a Facebook group. And in it you had all these women that were like, hey, do you clear out? Don't use, don't eat processed foods and it'll balance out your hormones. And sure enough, that worked. Mostly it was just like having the validation that she wished the doctors had given her that she wasn't crazy. And you had all this group of women.

And then she felt better. And then they're like, okay, you've healed your body. Now heal your mind and spirit. Let's go deeper in. So they joined the deeper Facebook group, which is the Lamarian Mystery School. And that's where Leanna's kind of Lord and Savior. So then there's like getting more into like more radical and spiritual teachings. Then you pay to join the Facebook group where you get the really one-on-one.

She answers questions. Hey, my kid's wedding is the wet bed. What, why is that happening? She's like, well, he's been abused. And this woman in particular, her, she just had a family member die that was really hard for her. And Leanna said, well, that was the person abusing your kid. And so she goes to the husband. She's like, hey, I think so-and-so abused her kid.

And the husband's like, what are you? You're just listening to someone online. And like, so she goes back to Leanna. She's like, my husband's challenging you. And Leanna's like, well, that's because he. was also abusing the kid. So this woman who's now left, she was like, I got so in deep, like, over time,

because I was like, why, well, this is helping me to, like, why would this woman, who everybody is saying is helping, like, why would she make these things up? And then, so she becomes so convinced that something's happening to her kid. So she starts, she says she started, like, asking, she started filming the kid and she knew the kid

had been abused, she just needed the kid to, like, admit it. So she was, like, coaching the kid to say the dad abused him. She said, now, like, now I know, I could not have asked for a better husband, but I was so in deep that I thought this was happening. I needed a proof. The mother was doing this. Yeah. So she called child protective services and got them involved, accusing the kid and trying to get the kid to say.

And like kids brain, you know, if you push a kid to think that something happened, I mean, like, there was a big thing in the satanic panic where it was like all these social workers that were convincing kids they were abused by Satanist or whatever. like that can become a very real memory, especially if somebody that you really believe, like your mother convinces you. So all these kids now are being indoctrinated too. And they're afraid to go out. A lot of these kids are, if they go, I've heard of instances where like the kids would go to be with their grandparents. And if the grandparents have been vaccinated, the mom would be like, oh my God, they have to, they would give them coffee animals to clear out the, because the vaccine shed on them. So they're trying, that's the whole thing of the teachings. You have to clear out all the parasites and whatever. So these kids are wrapped up in this messy situation. The dads are being accused of horrible things and being investigated by child protective services. And then the women, the moms will, you know, basically take the kids and move them across country borders, state borders to Florida. You know, a lot of them are coming in from Canada or other countries. Wow. So this is a group that's still actively, and I get people reach out to me every, you know, a couple weeks or so.

with new tips or like I didn't understand what was going on with my family until I read your article and now it all makes sense Wow, and this is a radical example, but I think a lot of groups like this are happening where it's just You know, it makes it really easy to create an online cult Wow and I'm sure with You know a lot of like illegal protections, you know with like children and mothers, right? Like rightfully so like the mother child bond is like so like fundamental to you know I think think like human development. So if a mother's moving her kids, it might be a little bit harder legally to even investigate. And they'd be like, look, the kids with their mom, they seem safe, and they're leaving an abusive situation, and how do you prove the abuse? Yeah, it's very messy for a lot of reasons. I think that you're touching on one of them. That it's just like,

people are like, there's child, I don't know. And then they're moving to another country. And they're like, I know, this is Florida's problem now. It's, and she, again, she's a former lawyer, the leader behind this whole thing. So she's pretty good at kind of knowing what she can tell people to do legally and she also is good at keeping her hands clean. She has other people below her kind of giving them more potentially like criminal order.

I don't know, yeah, it's... Wow. So now any of the women that you spoke with that got out, what was the collateral to them once they left? So because, yeah, so they're posting these like in these signal groups where people are like

they're asking her questions and she's like all the time she's like hey I think my somebody what happened to me and she's always like so and so abused you or so and so abused your kid I mean it almost always would seem to go there where she just takes it to

just a whole other level of darkness it could be from like wedding bed to like why do I feel this way And it's like a lot of times it goes to childhood abuse. So you have these people being like talking about like and she's like, you just need to listen to more of my recordings and they'll start to come out. And you listen to her recordings. I mean, they're very hypnotic.

I mean, they're the, when people tipped me, I got the story because people tip me. Because they were like, this is teal swan to like a whole other level. Her courses are very hypnotic and they make you sort of go deep into reflection on your family and your past history. and they're like sink into your trauma

like any time that you were in a it kind of makes you look back on your memories with like a dark cloud like any any memory like that time you were left in the car that was abuse the time like if your dad was really hugged you a lot like that was actually grooming and she says it was such authority like that was actually like if your dad

was you know because dads are alpha males and there's a lot of also kind of that kind of uh Andrew Tate sort of alpha masculinity weirdly brought into it. It's any kind of new big uh kind of conspiracy adjacent or just charismatic influencer kind of seems to seep into it's like her group her teachings are constantly evolving but um yeah anyway if it's saying like a dad touch you too much it and he was grooming you and he was abusive and so a lot of people like

it starts to they start looking back on their their childhood interactions in a much darker way, and they'll post, like, oh my God, maybe my dad did abuse me. So then she has that. So it's people that are uncovering things through listening to her hours and hours of hypnotic programming that they're having these new realizations. And you get valid. Once you post, like the sort of sisterhood in her, like, yes, that's good, more. Like, you need to uncover more. And so you're getting validated by posting these confessions. And are the confessions to the group? Like, can everyone that's within this inner sanctum see it, or is it only to her? It's a, so it's a lot of Facebook, it's, it, it, it, it, I think they've moved off Facebook

more recently, but it was a lot of Facebook posts, private group, or in the Signal. And Signal is an encrypted messaging platform. Yes, yeah, yeah, like WhatsApp or all that. But, um, yeah, so you're, you're posting it there for everybody. And in the Facebook group, she had to approve everything. So they're only, people are only saying things they think she'll approve. And she would say, don't talk, she would apparently say don't talk amongst each other separately. I can't monitor the energy. So people are only allowed to really talk in the Facebook group messages that she approves. And again, this is a thing where, like, a lot of cult-like groups,

there's a lot of information control. You can't, there's, like, in the fellowship of friends, there's rules about no gossiping. And so, but with, it's all kind of in this, it's all there. It's like baked into the platform form where information control, like the language, they use keywords that only meaning something to each other. Language is a big thing where, like, in the fellowship, there's certain words. So once they go back to their family and they're describing their feelings using only sort of fellowship lingo, there's this alienation baked in and your family's like, I don't even know you anymore. And then you're like, my family doesn't even get me anymore. Like language is- And that pushes you deeper in. Yeah. There's a great book called Cultist,

the language of fanaticism by Amanda Montel, who's like a linguist and goes deep into this. But language is such a big part. And now you see that with like corporate culture, like Amazon has his own words that Bezos comes up with that sort of trickle down and um but yeah language is big with alienation and you know you see that with like podcast groups or you know it's like you kind of need to know the lingo in order to like get in on the group but then you're sort of part of part of whatever gang or right but it which is kind of fun when you're doing it with like sort of like an entertainment group or it's kind of like you know like oh I listen to you know like this influencer and we're part of this group or I'm a fan of this sports team right you know what I mean that means that I'm a

Totally. And like that's, I mean, that's, that's patriotism. Yeah, exactly. It's like we, it's like that's, that's baked into everything. So it's tapping to these tribal things that we already do naturally. Yeah. But then drives it even deeper where it's like, you must talk in this way. And now that there's a loneliness epidemic and we don't, we kind of, we're missing out on that. Like you used to get that from like school pride or fraternities or something.

And now where during COVID and just in general, a lot of institutions are crumbling, it makes, there's like a God-sized hole in our hearts or like a community-sized hole in our hearts that these grifters can very easily fill. Dude, I mean, and it's so insidious too because it's almost like horoscopes in a way where it's like, if I look back on all of my, you know, childhood history, right?

Like, nothing bad ever happened to me, but it's not only the bad. So certainly there's, you know, a massive amount of people that have legitimate trauma. And so it's pretty easy to look at your legitimate trauma and be like, oh, this happened and this is the cure. This person, this woman, this, you know, this woman you're talking about is the cure for it.

Yeah. But then you can even look at positive things. Like, oh, my father was, you know, loving and doting on me. That's also negative. So no matter which way you look at it, it's all negative and it's all leading you back into deeper into this group. Yeah. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I got to tell you about my favorite thing ever.

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and important safety information. And thank you so much to Blue Chew for sponsoring this amazing broadcast. Let's get back to the show. It's the easiest thing to be like, the reason that you're broken or whatever is something to happen when you were a kid. and it was somebody who you were interacting with you,

when you were a kid, and most likely, because we can't form memories and really fully form memories until we're six. Like our brain is still, you know. So everything before that's kind of cobbled together, there's like little puzzle pieces, and it's very easy for a guru or somebody of influence, a therapist even to be like, put all those pieces together for you

and like have a memory that's sort of cobbled from other things. And it's, so, Usually the people that are characters in that those early memories that a therapist or cult leader is helping you form, the characters in that are family members. So it's easy to then alienate the family because they're the source of all of your trauma. And I alone can help you fix this, but cut out your family. So that's kind of the easy hack of cults or predatory spiritual groups is when they're kind of going into childhood memories and telling you what. it really meant. And yeah, and if you're then posting about it or being recorded talking about it. And then not to mention you are, if everything you're saying is needing to be approved by the leader,

you can't, like, if you're thinking like, oh, maybe I was abused. Yeah. That might not get approved. But if you say, now that I think about it, I definitely was abused. Yeah. So now you are even changing your language in the way you think about it. Yeah. And I think it's pretty, like, well documented that like our memories are malleable. Yeah. Like, you know, you look at, you know, like witness testimonies. And I forget, I was watching like some Netflix documentary, but like they basically like have an event that happens and they document the event and then they record people that witnessed it. Yeah. And they're like, oh, what did the guy look like? Right. And there's eight different accounts of what it looked like. And all these people are legitimately recalling their

memories, but their memories are fallacious in and of themselves. Right. Yeah. I mean, that is terrifying. Yeah. And especially if it's, I mean, this is why like coerced testimonies. I mean, if, even if you don't respect police, you know, if you're in a, in a, of a room for hours and they're in a position of authority whether or not you eat or go to the bathroom so they can very easily we know somebody with a sense of authority over you can influence your memories if you've had people make false confessions and they they leave like fully believing they killed somebody i guess i did do it yeah like how could somebody with yeah um and then once you've said it becomes real uh but yes that that happens a lot with i mean memory

false memories is a very messy thing um to go into but yeah i think i mean this was something that the with my teal swan reporting and leon ashaanti that it does seem like she is able to kind of influence memories and have people come up with things that did not happen or um after they left were like i realized that was totally bogus and i was just doing it for the validation that is so scary yeah so then these women that get out one how did they get out and two what was the actual like recourse that happened to them like did they suffer career damage you know like obviously there's familial things that i'm sure they're putting together, but was there actual, like, blackmail or coercion that was put out to try to make

them stay? Let's go back to that. The woman who, you know, she had the issue with the hospital, like, she was a postpartum issues, and then she ended up coaching her kids to say things. She ended up, like, having sort of a mental breakdown, like, so much anxiety from uncovering these new things. And, like, oh, my God, my kids are being abused. and now like I'm trying to cut us out from her husband.

She ended up checking herself into an institution. And she went through electric shock therapy. Just because, but she was like worried that she was going to harm her kids or the harm herself. But she said that she sort of deprogrammed because she no longer had access to Facebook. And so that that's what kind of cut her off. And then she's, and also, you know, Leanna says don't talk to therapist, no couples therapy. because they're all evil, they're... Satanic. Yeah. So once she realized

these people are actually helping me and they don't, they're not acting like a way, how she says, whatever, that sort of broke the programming and now she's out and she, she, realize she can't, like the marriage is not, they're not saving the marriage, but she's like, we're still

co-parenting, we're doing, I'm trying to, she's trying to get her life back together or was at the time when I was interviewing her. But yeah, a lot of these people that leave, their families are torn apart. It's really hard. Yeah, it's hard to get their job back. And then a lot of them are, they're trying to get their job back. But then Leanna will, they're trying to get a new job.

But then Leanna will tag that employer with all of these crazy things. And so the woman that you spoke with, did this happen to her? No, she kind of stayed off Leanna's radar. but there are people who, like the woman who, who, uh, she'd been with Leanna forever and, um, she, when Leanna said, you can only listen to, she was, she was back, she was with Leanna back when it was more friendly and less,

less like radical. And then over time it got, and then when Leona started saying, you can only listen to media that I post, this woman was like, wait, I, what about Joe Rogan? And Leon was like, out, out. I mean, she made an example of like one of her, like, it was basically, one of the 12 apostles. And then she started posting, I guess when this woman, this is in the article,

this woman had a really bad pregnancy and had to, in a very late stage, had to sort of make the, like, decision to end it. And I guess was feeling very conflicted of like, basically,

Leanna kind of made her think like she killed her kid. And so she was like, went to Leanna first, her spiritual teacher and was like, I can't believe I killed my kid, da-da-da, which is not an accurate way of how it went down. Like she did the most humane, she did the best thing that she could do in a very, very difficult situation that I will never face. And then when she got kicked out, Leano was posting all these things and calling her like a baby murderer and all the, and just like, yeah. So then people didn't they don't want to leave, you know

Because they don't want that to happen to her and then and then like it's like this Leonna was like tagging her employers and like stuff like that it just gets real dark I mean this is insane yeah so how many Members of this specific organization How many could you estimate are like leaving their families or moving is there a number you could put on it? Yeah, I think at the I heard like kind of at one peak the kind of devote of people who are paying

regularly and involved it was like 160 she has again 27,000 Instagram followers I think a lot of them aren't real I think maybe the majority of them aren't real you know it's easy to buy followers I think there's dedicated core of like 100 to 200

I yeah I think a lot of them were making efforts to cut off their families and move to other places. And how many organizations like this do you think exist? Like these digital sort of communities that are at best like, you know, like misguided and at worst, like sinister? I mean, I get a lot of tips about things like this. This seemed like a good, I don't, it's hard to say. I know, uh, I mean, there's, there's been an uptick in like online cults for

sure since COVID. Sure. Um, but it's hard to, you know, it's like a lot of them are just kind of dismissed as like conspiracy cranks but like because of used to be like you know you you had a radio program from your um you know a m station from your trailer you know and you were just like spewing about UFOs but yeah not to like not to antagonize any of your past guests but you know like I'm just saying the you know the stereotypical uh online conspiracy theorist sure um but yeah now they can all kind of band together and start their own group and it's easy for one of them to kind of become the leader I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised there are thousands of these kind of online groups happening all

over. Oh my God. And so what can you do? So like one, I guess I'm curious about like the legal component. Like what can the United States government, the government of Florida? And and then even more granularly, what could, you know, like a son or a husband or a sister or a mom do if they find their, you know, someone in their family that's drawn into these organizations? Well, what happened with her, with Leanna legally, so she had, uh, the, the real person behind it, her name is Leanne Wilson. And Leanna Ashanti is kind of this online alter ego that she created. So it's, it's sort of a catfish group. Like, she created this catfish sort of cult leader that's a fictional version of herself. And when they, her name. No, it's a, she, um, yeah, she sort of created,

she had, I think, uh, this ayahuasca retreat. And I think this shaman like gave her, this new idea. I don't know, she came out of it with this new name, created this sort of Facebook group where that was her self-help coach thing. But yeah, so Leane Wilson years ago was convicted of bankruptcy fraud. And she is currently on probation. And when the article came out, it got on the radar of her probation officer. So she ended up having to go to court. And basically where the judge landed is like, it's kind of outside of her purview

to determine if like this, all this crazy cult accusations really break her bankruptcy fraud. But I think she is, so she, but so even yeah, the judge seemed to think like there's a lot going on here that I, can't get into, but maybe somebody else should look into this. But it's just like she's based in Hawaii. She doesn't want anybody to go to Hawaii because nobody has ever seen her. I like met her. Like she, this was the thing with like the Zoom thing. She said, don't, don't do Zoom because they can't

capture, they'll capture your soul. So she would not and she would say videos are evil. So it was like all photos, but they're very heavily. It's very obvious that her photos are all like photoshopped or manipulated. Um, she recently did go back on, you know, she said no, no video. But now that there was more, after the article, there was more pressure to show who she is. So she posts videos, but they look very, like the eyes don't move really with the face. And they're kind of... Yeah, it seems... Yeah.

And I've done... I did dig up an old photo of her, and she looks very different from what... She seems to have... She must have, like, D.H. 30 years. And, yeah. But, uh, anyway, so she's in Hawaii. She doesn't want anybody to be near her. So nobody's really seen her.

But so the fact that she's in Hawaii and a lot of the people are in other countries or in Florida. And she's really pretty safe about not like having her sort of, there's this term flying monkeys, which is kind of like the inner circle. Obviously like an OZZZEV Oz reference where it's like you have a lot of cults have their flying monkeys to kind of do their bidding. And so she has a lot of so-called kind of people that have been referred to as flying monkeys who sort of do the do the more. questionable things for her or like we'll tell the women how to get through the canadian border

um to avoid vaccine mandates or whatever you know wow yeah and then if you're a family member like what could you do to try to pull someone out i i think um just be as understanding and open as possible like go against um the sort of programming that your family doesn't get it and they don't this new awakening, like be open and curious and open-minded about the maybe crazy things they're saying and do whatever you can to kind of challenge that programming. I asked actually, I had a, I have a one of my best friends. She was raised in Nexium. And she, we actually met totally by coincidence. She had she just left Nexium. And, um, It was the day Keith got arrested.

I'm getting back to like advice to, I got a good nugget from her. But Keith, the leader, Keith and Rudy had gotten arrested. It was all over the news and she was like, oh my God, this thing that I'm trying to escape is like everywhere. She was like, I just needed me to meet a random dude in Brooklyn who has nothing to do with Colts. So she got on Bumble and we matched. Were you already covering Colts at this point? Yeah. I had just gotten back from a cult compound.

No. And I was like, I want to, you know. Uh, so I had, yeah, I'd been reporting on teal swan. I'd been out there and, and so I told her, I just got back from a reporting trip, you know, and we met at this bar in Fort Green. And, uh, she's like, like, one drink in. She's like, so what do you, what do you report on? Where were you? And I was like, ah, it's kind of weird. I report on cults. Uh, and, um, she said, she was like, at the time, I was like, what the, what the fuck? Like, what are the fucking chances? Like, is what am I being, you know?

And then, but she's like, either, this guy's either going to like try to get my story or he'll understand. And as she has tells it now, like I was a human about it. I was like, where are you in your healing journey? Are you, you know, doing okay? And yeah, we just became good friends. And for her, I think it was really good to have somebody who sort of understood and didn't, I didn't need to ask her a million questions because I already knew the kind of dynamics of what she'd been through. And for me, it just is very formative for talking to people and her. situation. And whenever I'm like using quotes from people, I'm like, what if this was my friend?

How would she want to be represented? And I'll run things by her sometimes. Like, what do you think? How should I handle this messy situation? Because there's not really like a, it's a weird ethical territory, you know, like when you're reporting on this kind of nuanced, complex stuff. But she, anyway, I asked her once because a lot of people ask me. And I've had family members that have been pulled into things that are questionable. I think we're all sort of experiencing that right now where people are getting pulled into some pretty what could seem like crazy beliefs.

But yeah, she said just if that person like needs money to join a group, offer that money, offer everything you can, like that you're able to without, you know, sacrifice. Because then a lot of these groups, they're like, oh, if your parent, if your family doesn't, you're already showing that you're like invested in what their journey is.

and like you care about them. And that kind of goes against the programming. Oh, wow. That, you know, your family doesn't get you. Which is kind of counterintuitive. Exactly, yeah. My knee jerk, like, if my sister came to me, was like, hey, I heard about this group. I want to move out there.

I want to go to the retreat. I'd be like, fuck, no. Are you crazy? Exactly. And that's, you're totally playing into the program. Yeah. So I'd be like, hey, I'll support you. I got your back.

I don't think you're crazy. So how about you go check it out. Yeah. You know, be discerning. Don't tell him anything. You know what I mean? Be smart about it. And then when you get back, let's talk.

Yeah. And then ask, the next thing is ask non-judgmental questions that could engage their critical thinking. What would be an example of that? Like, you know, what, like, what's the, so why do they have you do that thing? Like, that, like, that's kind of cool or weird or like new age. I don't know. Like, that's, I'm, you know, like, but why? Like, why do you?

And that's usually where I come out with these groups because I'm like, I'm like, here for it. I'm like, let's get weird. You know, we were talking earlier about, like, Catholicism versus, um, uh, Pentecostal stuff. I'm like, yeah, give me a, give me a fucking snake in like some tongues. Like, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna, like, I'm down to party. Let's see some shit. Yeah. So I'm like, uh, if there's somebody, if I had a loved one in a group, I'd be like, yeah, like, that's weird.

But like, I'm a journalist, so like, I can't help it. Be curious. Wonder. Like, why, what's the reason that? And a lot of times, I think they can't, you know, and if, if, if so many times they're answering, like, oh, because that's just what we're told. I don't know. You can sometimes I've talked to people who are leaving and they're kind of like I had people who were leaving Leon Ashanti

and like one person was like I I'm trying to determine if you're like a reptile or not and I was like well that's cool of you to reach out and figure out on your own. Did you hiss at her? Now with some people leaving I've like made jokes because when the story came out Leanna told her followers that I she weirdly like didn't use my name or have she didn't want anybody to read the article so she just said i'm like i'm a beta jellyfish energy like i'm a beta male like blobby like she's like he hasn't published

anything in years he just i don't even know why he and then people would listen i went on a few podcasts after because there's like this whole cult podcast network that you know you do the rounds um and some of them listen to that and they're like you don't you're not at all like what she was describing you as And so if she's wrong about that, then what else is she wrong about? And she's in a sort of a catch because if she's like, oh, look at his article and you'll see how stupid it is and you lay out all of these very coherent examples and you're not judgmental and you're kind of open-minded about it. Yeah. All of a sudden they can look at it and some of them might be like, wait a second. Yeah.

I should reach out to him. But actually, I think doing stuff like this is more helpful because more people have been like, I heard you on the podcast explaining these things rather than like I read the article and that, you know. because, you know, there's a lot of, you know, nobody knows what they can read online and they're like, what's the agenda behind it. But when you talk to somebody, it helps you understand a little where they're coming from. Right. But yeah, so I, but yeah, so I've had people who were leaving and I kind of, I just, I'm like, look, I don't know. Leanna might. Like, she could have access to the Akashic records.

Like, I have no way of proving any of these things. But this is what I understand and, like, why have these. predictions, like, why does she, she said this thing. We haven't in writing this. She said this, but then that didn't come to be. So, was she lying? Like, I need to know. You know, you know, you know better than me. You know, just like, it's a way to come about it where you're not, like, dismissing him as crazy.

Yeah. And there's that old quote, right? Like, you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. Yeah. And so if these are all, like, these emotional pulls, your kids are getting abused. You are getting abused. Yeah. Like, it's hard to be like, hey, you know, point A, B.

and see logic, right? Yeah, yeah. And I think that probably goes for like most cults. Yeah. Well, again, the cognitive dissonance of apocalyptic, you know, like you've, you've, right. It logically makes no sense, but emotionally you're so bought in, you're so invested, and you're so afraid. There's so much fear that's involved.

And it seems like that seems like a common threat across everything is fear. Yeah. And that if you can scare these people enough, you can convince them to do whatever it is that you need them to do. And especially if it's concern over their children's safety. Yeah, I mean, that's where I really feel for it. Because it's like, she's weaponizing a part of like the mother brain where it's like literally they don't care about themselves they

want they really want their kids to not be pulled into some lucifarian you know evil whatever yeah i mean it's just so insidious and i'm curious what is the motivation for like these digital gurus like you know this this guy you're talking about robert out west like he's obviously seems like a sex addict or has like a power situation you know there's a lot of different things we could speculate uh and there seems like a very clear incentive right Right? You're buying renaissance art, going around the world. For someone like this that's completely remote, what, I mean, I know you might not necessarily have an answer, but could you speculate what some motivations are for these specific types of coal leaders? I think, so I think it's easy.

It's an easy buck, and it's good to feel a sense of power. I mean, it's like, again, do you think they have a pathology? Do you think they're, you know, associated? apathic or narcissistic. I think it takes that to be a good charismatic guru or cult leader. It takes, it's good to have that. It makes you, it makes for a good when you really have no shame. And I think when in the past some of these people just could have gone about their lives and maybe been an abusive partner or whatever, the internet gives them access to. And the, these platforms, it is in their interest to bring

the willing masses the most susceptible people to people like that's engagement baby you know like that's how you get and like it's all money to these platforms so it's sort of these I don't and I don't think it's like you have these evil tech overlords

like but it's just like the algorithm sort of brings everybody together and then that fuels that part of the brain that is sociopathic narcissistic to create a cult but yeah I think for her I think it maybe started from a good place Leanna

or Leane was a she was a Wall Street lawyer she was I think eight months pregnant during 9-11 after that she was like she said she was like fuck this I'm getting out she became a timeshare saleswoman

in Hawaii was incredible at selling timeshares and she was I think it was a very toxic take work environment. She was a part of a class action lawsuit where there was a lot of like, even though she was selling like millions of dollars of timeshares, like men were getting the credit. Her boss was very, I mean, this was all in the lawsuit. She spoke out about it against it,

like against sexual misconduct and stuff. And then she got fired. And then she'd this ayahuasca retreat thing and sort of came out of it, decided to be a women empowerment self-help guru. In the early days. It was very simple, like, giving women good advice about how to start their businesses and how to do a vegan cleanse and, uh, or juice cleanse. And, um, over time, people started saying, like, you cured me from cancer, uh, or you like, changed my life or like I had postpartum issues. And now, and I think enough people tell you, you're, you've got some sort of higher consciousness or something, then you're like, maybe I am onto something. Maybe I, and so I think that kind of, and she was, it was purely online.

It was almost like this video game. You know, she was this, she created this false character that all these women were worshipping. Um, and then when she had the bankruptcy fraud, which again shows that she wasn't, I know I'm painting this picture of like this person who had all the good intentions,

but I don't know what balance of, you know, we can only speculate. You've never talked to her. Yeah. Um, but she, uh,

she was, she couldn't leave Hawaii because of, she was on probation from this bankruptcy fraud. and but online she was this god that all these women worshipped who she'd cured cancer and all this so I think over time that and um you know they're willing to pay some someone would just keep buying her programs because they're like oh it's been so helpful I keep listening to it I feel bad listening to it 100 times without paying

again so these you know so it's a financial interest but also it's um it feels really good wow yeah I mean money and power what other types of yeah what other types of incentive do you need wow that is like I think is actually a good lesson both ways. One, I think it's a very clear lesson for, you know, potential members, right? I think we all have this mentality, especially back in the day of like, oh, if you're someone that gets drawn into a cult, you're a loser, you're destitute, you had no other options, which I think we know now is not the case. I think it's typically people that are like a little confused. We have sort of like a biological desire to fit in. I think there's a social component

like baked into who we are as human beings to be conformist and tribal. And like we had said, like a lot of those former institutions that kind of rode it away for better for worse. And so, yeah, people can easily get drawn in. The algorithm, again, it makes sense, right? Like these platforms, on the one hand, are so positive because, you know,

let's say you're someone that loves Dungeons and the Dragons and you live in a place where no one does that. They think you're weird. They think you're, you know, some social pariah. And you can find your digital community of people that love to play this game. And it's awesome. Or you love Pokemon or even on a bigger level,

you're a gay person in a country where it's illegal to be gay. And now all of a sudden you can find a digital community of people that are like you and you can sort of like have comfort in that. That's awesome. Yeah. And then there's this dark side where people can get drawn into these gurus that can sort of exploit them. And then I think even furthermore, people with platforms, like I'm even reflecting on myself, like a lot of these platforms, if you're someone that is, you know, creating a name for yourself digitally, whether you're an

influencer, you know, like a TikTok influencer, you sell makeup, whatever, there is almost like a, like a platform incentive to engage with your audience and create the parissociality. Like the, like, they tell you like, hey, comment and respond to everybody and tell everybody and, you know, get invested in their lives, da-da-da. And I wonder if people are even unknowingly or unwittingly sort of falling into this. And then if you have some of the co-founders, you know, whether it's some pathology or a trauma, that validation feels really good. And then you combine that with money and influence. It can go off the rails. Yeah, I think there's a, at least from my perspective before this conversation, like, oh, this woman that's a cult leader, she hatched

this whole idea to try to get power and she wanted to be a cult leader. Yeah. That may be true, but it also might be just as well that she was, you know, a well-intentioned spiritual guru that got validation from the audience

and that propelled her to have this God complex that then she espoused to the audience and it became a flywheel. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah, I think it is important for people that have platforms that are like creating content, like you and I, right,

to say like, hey, we do not know the audience. Yeah. Like we talk, but we don't have a real tannable relationship. And the relationships with the people you actually know are way more important than, you know, someone that you listen to in your ears for five hours a week or whatever that is. So I think it's a good lesson for everyone across the board. Yeah. Do you have people that you're like, man, now I'm worried about, because you run in the circles

of people who get all of a sudden, like, online fame and influence. And obviously, like in the past, like rock stars kind of become their old cult leaders and get groupies and when they're on tour who the fuck knows what they're up to. Um, but now you can have that entirely online. Like, you have access to like fans. Yeah, absolutely. Like what, yeah, I mean, how do you, is there anybody now that you're like, I could see them and like give it three years, then I needed, like, check in on them? I mean, maybe. It's one of these things where like, again, I think that that, that cult word. I, like, I'm, I don't know which way to go with it. My gut instinct is to say like, hey, everything's

occult. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, right? Like if you're a fan of a sports team and you go to every game and you go to tailgates of games when the games aren't even in town, just to be with like-minded people, that is a cult. Yeah. And it's not necessarily bad. I think it's ultimately what do people do with the power? And can you identify red flags where there's like, you know, sort of like dissemination of information like, hey, don't talk with people or hey, don't, you know, like if they're trying to cut people out, or if they're trying to control the information that is, you know, distributed, or if there's just straight up like, hey, tell me your secrets and I'll keep them in my safe little chest. Yeah. Or I guess anyone that's directly

offering you some type of like higher salvation or consciousness. Yeah. That to me is like the biggest indicator. Yeah, you nailed it. Information control, thought control. Um, and yeah, I alone and source to universal knowledge or what can fix you, you know. Yeah, like anytime, again, I don't know, I'm not any way versed in this, but like if someone is espousing that, like, hey, I am the source. Yeah. Get away. But also, they're always pretty good about, like, being, like, hey, anybody can leave. Like, I'm not, they always, there's a way to deflect it or dismiss it.

But, like, yeah, in the fellowship, I mean, anybody can leave the fellowship. And they'll insist that they don't, like, ostracize. But people who've left, they're like, I lost my community. everybody was like afraid to talk to me. And I cut off my family. So like I was, I was destitute. So I really had no choice in leaving.

And then people who've left that, and I spoke to somebody who he was like, I was totally indoctrinated for years. And I can't, I'm finally leaving. And it was like, I was a heroin addict for 20 years, 30 years.

Like he was like, if the cult, if the fellowship is heroin, I was an addict for 30, 28 years. The way he was taught, I mean, he was giving me the fucking tea.

He was like, I thought he was so out and then he went back. And he was in for like a few months and then he died. Related to the organization? No, no, no, no. But I think it was, yeah, I don't know. It was natural causes. But I think he, when I saw him, he was like, there was like this, I'm free.

I'm like, I'm clean. But I don't know, maybe there was just like underlying misery. I think he was very lonely. Yeah. And I'm kind of glad that he had already gone there all the misery. of the cult and like the abuse and stuff. So, um,

you know, like at least he died amongst people who he thinks cared about him and felt long, right? You know? Yeah, it's so tricky. And then like, I think about like my own religious experience,

like growing up Catholic, right? Like obviously within like the Catholic church, it's like, hey, this is, you know, God is the way. Christ is our savior.

And I think, I guess you can also maybe look at the fruits. Like I, I am a believer, generally speaking that like, religion has done good for the world. I know this is a sort of a debatable statement and I know that there's, you know,

look at Crusades, child abuse, sure. But just in general, I think most of the religions that have persisted kind of almost like through a, like a Darwinian selection, like the ones that have persisted for thousands of years, I believe have fruits of positivity that allow it to persist. And the ones where it's like,

you know, hey, we're all going to kill ourselves, those will die off. Yeah. So I almost wonder if there's like a social evolutionary component where if they persisted for a long time, the fruits are more positive? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm more like inclined to just

humanity is good and evil and religions and cults are just, I mean, we're by design, we need community. Right. And, but yeah, I don't know. I haven't done that. Yeah, this is a way larger debate. Yeah, give me a, give me a gong

and I'll get more like, but, but I guess my general feeling is like, people need to conform, they need community. Yeah. And so I don't want to be. be someone that's like, hey, cut off all your communities because that is, then you're just sort of free and sort of loose and then maybe you're more susceptible to getting drawn into a radical community. Yeah. So I would try to encourage people like, hey, find communities where

the fruit is good. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think institutional religion has its own issues, but yeah, I think there's good, like, when there is bigger groups, when there is a sense of, like transparency. I think, I think transparency is a big thing. Yeah. Like there needs a sense of checks and balances and transparency and if somebody's doing something terrible, people feel comfortable speaking out. Right. And yeah, you find that more with a lot of mainstream institutional religions. That's sort of my point.

Like if you become, you know, like a Presbyterian Christian or even a Catholic and you're volunteering and, you know, providing like aid to the homeless, right? Like the fruits of this are good. You're treat your neighbors yourself. You become Muslim and you're able to, you know, clothe your neighbor. take them into your home. Like, if you're actually following these tenants of these major religions,

and I'm like, okay, the fruits are generally good. Yeah. Now, if you fall into a radical sect where it's like, hey, commit terrorism, hey, we're going to ritually abuse people. Yeah. Then I would hope that people would look at the fruits and say, oh, this is actually negative.

But again, it depends on how you sort of wrap these negative behaviors to say it's actually for the greater good. So I can see, you know. And that's very subjective. Exactly. What's good and what's worth the good? Yeah, I don't know if there's a solution.

Like, I would hope that there's some type of, oversight from platforms to say like, oh, the fruits of this organization are negative. But then I don't want platforms having the subjective, you know, sort of like totalitarianism where they can look at an organization and say, oh, you guys are, you know, like questioning this mainstream narrative, which is actually bad, right? Like, imagine people are like, oh, this thalidomide we're given to kids in England is actually bad. Yeah. And they say, hey, you're going against the modern, you're hurting women. Women are trying

to have better childbirth and they're taking this drug and then we find out that it's actually negative. Yeah. So it's like, I don't want to be the guy that's silencing people

going against the leadamide. You know what I mean? So it's kind of a free speech debate in a way. Yeah, no, I mean, there's a... Like, it's all wrapped in the First Amendment, you know? Freedom of religion

and Freedom of Press are in the First Amendment. Like, they are in America they can do whatever the fuck they want under the guys of religion. But I can also, you know, have the freedom to report on it as long as I'm not knowingly lying, then I can do my job. Yeah. And that's why I'm grateful for people like you that are like on the lookout and saying,

hey, these people are doing fuck shit. Like we got to investigate this and look into it. So I guess I kind of lean personally as of right now, more on the side of like let things be open, recognize that negativity could come from them like these groups where people are becoming online, you know, cult leaders. And ideally arming people with the tools to identify when things are negative and when they're not. Yeah, I think it's gonna, look, we're not gonna change the wheel of whatever is happening for, you know,

for all of human civilization. Like, whatever's happening is gonna happen and whatever platforms are gonna fuel feed on that part of our brain. Like, it's gonna, yeah, the machine, I don't know, I'm pretty nihilistic and I think everything is fucked and like, whatever. Like, we're not changing anything

and we're certainly not here gonna change anything. But, um, I think like, things get more the more polarization that the worst things are. I mean, obviously that's kind of Colts rise up whenever there's kind of like a distrust in like in the 60s and 70s. There was a lot of the same things going on. There's distrust in mainstream religion, mainstream politics. So you had a lot of yeah, cults political cults, religious cults coming up. It's again, it's like there was a void. There was this like mainstream way to fill the to fill that sort of God size hole and we all need. We all need. that because we've evolved to need some sense of order and just a government giving you laws that you don't really know the reason of it like doesn't really that doesn't really work and you so you're like we need like a sense of like good and evil and like there's a higher power

whatever like that's why we've societies that have um had a religious order are the ones that have lived better lived have lived on kind of touching on what you were saying earlier um whenever there's like a lot of chaos like the grifters fill that void um that's been happening now There's a lot of polarization and now like you're starting to see it like political ways like a lot of like the sort of CNN and Fox pundits that you would never that would like were antagonizing each other now they're like like I just saw like Tucker Carlson and in Cuomo were like doing a podcast together it's like I think everybody sort of learn the lesson that like by feeding into that sort of polarization nothing things only get worse and if you try to find the common grounds and that's why I say like if your brother is in a radical cult like just try to to engage with him and answer questions and like yeah it's like talking through things and like

because yeah you're not going to push them deeper into it yeah well Jennings I really appreciate this man I'm simultaneously I think I'm just horrified actually I was going to say optimistic I mean I am grateful for people like you that is that you know that's shedding light on this kind of stuff and I think that people should be much more discerning when it comes to the information that they take in and the groups that they're sort of surrendering themselves to.

Yeah. Especially as things are, you know, more digitized and as people are feeling that call of loneliness more and more. Yeah. So, yeah, this has like been absolutely fascinating. Are there any closing thoughts or anything that you want to contribute? No, I'm tapped out. I'm used to asking people all the questions.

So I feel like I rambled more. I talked at you a lot because, yeah, it's like I don't usually get a position to really think through and connect all the dots. So I appreciate you. give me a chance to do it. Absolutely. Let's do this again, brother. Unfortunately, I don't think

that these organizations are going to be going away anytime soon. So I would love to revisit this convo and dive deeper into it next time. Thank you again.