Camp Gagnon - BANNED Bible Books: Jesus' Twin, Simon Magus, and City of Canibals

Episode Date: March 28, 2025

🚨 Make Sure To Rate Us 🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟Why were these books removed from the Bible? Dr. Nathanael Andrade, Greek and Roman historian, joins us once again to talk about some interesting religious topics. Did Jesus have a twin? Why were the Acts of Thomas & Acts of Peter removed from the Bible? WELCOME TO CAMP! 🏕️Shoutout to our sponsor: Morgan & Morgan, Bluechew and Magic SpoonMagicSpoon: https://magicspoon.com/camp👕🧢 GET YOUR CAMP DRIP HERE: https://campgoods.co/🏕️ Get The Daily Today In History Email Here (Free): https://camp.beehiiv.com/TIMESTAMP: 0:00 Origins of The Gospel Thomas + Acts of Thomas9:28 Thomas’s Writings17:56 Jesus May Have Been Thomas’ Twin20:48 How Did Thomas Travel From Jerusalem To India By Boat?22:17 Removal of The Acts of Thomas From Biblical Canon27:36 The King Referred To In Thomas’ Text28:56 The Acts of Peter + Simon Magus37:15 Apocryphal Texts: Fan Fiction or Lost Canon?39:49 The Acts of Andrew + City of Cannibals43:50 Spread of Christianity After Christ’s Crucifixion47:31 Which Apostle Traveled The Farthest?48:46 Persecution of Christians54:14 Church Traditions Causing Persecution + Method of Executions57:02 Constantine + Zoroastranism1:03:00 Jews Reaction To Christian Ruling1:07:28 Importance of Knowing About The Middle East

Banned books of the Bible, or should I say the Apocrypha. These are the ancient texts that were not included in the original canon of the Bible, but perhaps within them there is a secret knowledge that is yet to be uncovered. So today I have invited Dr. Nathan Andrade to come down and speak to us about the true history of these ancient books. He's going to tell us about the Acts of Thomas, the story that Thomas actually made it all the way to India and interacted with the kings of that land. Jesus appears to him. He says, I have someone I want to sell to you into slavery.

And so they have this transaction, and Thomas becomes enslaved. He's also going to tell us about the acts of Peter and how he encountered a magical wizard that flew around the room named Simon Magus. There's sort of this trial where they're pitted against one another, and they're trying to demonstrate, I guess, who really has divine backing. And he'll even tell us about the acts of Andrew and how the Apostle Andrew came across a city of cannibals. He's going to tell us about all of these books and more. He'll explain everything that's in them and why they were not included in the original Bible. And maybe he'll even tell us about all the secret teachings that exist in the pages of these old books. Or maybe it's just going to be fun to just, you know, talk about ancient texts. Regardless, enjoy the episode with Nathan Andrade,

get cozy in the tent, pour yourself a cup of tea. Welcome to Kappa. Nate, how are you? I'm well. How are you? I'm doing excellent. I'm doing excellent. Okay. To day, I would love to discuss some of the, you know, some of the apocryphal texts, some of the books and works that are found not necessarily in the Bible that have been found and discovered outside of sort of that traditional canon that many Christians accept. And last time we spoke, we spoke obviously about the, you know, the gospel records of the crucifixion of Christ and the trial of Christ. But I think kind of looking at some of these other works as well as early

Christianity shortly after the death of Christ and kind of how it pervaded through Rome, therefore, I think is really, really interesting. One of the ones we were just talking about was the Gospel of Thomas, which is sort of gripped the zeitgeist. Many people are fascinated by this text that claims to hold these bizarre, cryptic, you know, almost like idiomatic phrases and almost riddles that are said to have come from Christ himself. So I'm curious as far as the gospel of Thomas goes, what can you tell us about that specific text? Is it a hoax?

Is it accurate to ascribe it to Christ or is that, you know, maybe not the case? Yeah, what do you know about that? Right, yeah. I mean, it's hard to say a lot about that text in part because oftentimes when I read about it, I wasn't sure if I was persuaded by what other people have said. it's so hard to place because it you know it purports to be yeah as you point out the words of jesus as recorded by an apostle judas thomas also didomas who also you know i think is a fascinating figure um in early christianity where was the text discovered nagmadi in egypt okay yeah so relatively

recently yeah and i think it has it's it's preserved in coptic yeah and um you know and the 1940s um discovered basically by accident um There are some Greek fragments of it that survive on papyrus by very small, right? And so there's all sorts of debates about what its original language one is, how it dates, how is it related to, like, the New Testament Gospels. I haven't really seen any universal agreement. By and large, even though it purports to be the words of Jesus or transcribed by Judas Thomas, most scholars, don't accept that. And from there, the question is, you know, does it represent a tradition that's earlier than the synoptic gospels, you know, that is marked Matthew and Luke, or is it

even later, might it be dependent on the synoptic tradition? And, you know, within the last 10 to 15 years, some scholars have argued that, that it should be dated, you know, to the middle second century or so, right? Significantly later than what you would expect, like an oral transcription of the words of Jesus to be. So I can say that. It's probably hard to say that those are like the words of Jesus that weren't preserved, right, in the New Testament canon. It's hard to see much else. And in a very, you know, convincing positive fashion.

Different scholars are really, you know, hashing it out that way. Now, this same character, Thomas, has purportedly written another text that has been discovered. relatively recently, the Axe of Thomas. Right. What can you tell us where was that discovered and what is in the acts of Thomas? What's up, camp family? What's up, campers? Two big announcements.

Don't skip this. Two massive announcements. The merch store is back open. That's right. Camp Goods is back in stock. We got these hats that I'm wearing right now. I've been rocking them both on here, on flagrant. I've been wearing them on stage.

We got a bunch more hats like the ones behind me. You can see them all here on the website. We also got some shirts. Oh, man, what is this one right here? Come on now. Come on now. Camp gear for all terrain. We got some other ones.

What is this one right here? Oh, this one's beautiful. This one might be one of my favorites. The colors are absolutely crazy. This is Camp Gagnon, vintage wisdom across the globe. Come on now. We got all that and more on the store. We also got these sick mugs right here.

You might have seen me maybe sipping from one of these in some of the recent episodes. These are sick. They are all available on the website. Camp goods. Go check it out. Link is in the description and by supporting the merchandise you are obviously supporting the show. You're supporting me and you're obviously, you know, supporting all the amazing people to make the show happen like Christos, who is currently throwing me T-shirts from underneath this desk here. So please check that out. Additionally, I'm on the road. That's right.

I'm doing my one hour of stand-up comedy. Some of the greatest jokes ever written, okay? That's not true. But they are my jokes and I wrote them. And I'll be in Rochester, New York, March 26th, and I'll be in Portland, Maine on April 27th. And that one, I'm doing with Joey Avery. You know Joey Avery, a friend of the show. He sat across from me many times. I've explained some things to him. And he might be my dumb friend, but he is a brilliant stand-up comedian, and we will be there in Portland, Maine. If you are in these areas, please come out and we're adding a ton of dates all through the summer. So check out my website, the markgagnon.com for all tour dates and updated info. Come hang out with me. I talk to every single person after the show.

If you want to kick it with me, maybe have a drink. I'll be there. And I will see you you guys on the road. And let's get back to the show. In that case, it's about Thomas and not necessarily by him, but it purports to be someone who knew about, right, this particular apostolic figure. And although it was generally known, we can extrapolate from early Christian literature generally, you know, people for a while knew that there was a gospel attributed to Thomas and knew that there was an apostolic axe of some sort attributed to him. But, yeah, as you point out, Those texts, for the most part, weren't really discovered into much more recently, right? And what happened in the 19th century was that there was a lot of interest in Europe

in various types of biblical manuscripts, naturally. And it was really amidst that interest that the acts of Thomas first really surfaced in a more or less complete form. And that would be the Syriac version. But since then, you know, Greek versions have also been detected. And in fact, that tradition has translated into a host of languages and antiquity variations, at least. And so in Latin, Armenian, Georgian, Arabic, right? You know, that tradition represented by the Acts of Thomas was very, very popular. Not necessarily acceptable to everyone, but it was certainly very popular, as you can probably infer from all the translations.

But yeah, when it was discovered and people were able to actually read it in totality, you know, really for the first time, it really, you know, purported to be a text about how Thomas ended up preaching in India, right? So going from, you know, Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection to, you know, preaching in the subcontinent. And it really attracted a lot of fascination because there are Christians that live in, you know, South India, you know, Thomas Christians that actually. And actually claim their origins, right, from that apostle. Like, he founded their communities in the first century CE. And so there's been a lot of scholarship trying to figure that, how that all relates, right? Did reports of him going to India predate the discovery of the text? It does in a sense that once that text circulates, and I think I would date it to the third century.

A lot of people dated to the early third a little bit later. it becomes very popular and people say it a lot. And so throughout late antiquity, there's a variety of authors with varying degrees of detail that mention Thomas in India or Thomas went to India or who sometimes, you know, you know, seem to be confused about where exactly Thomas went, in part because in late antiquity, right, say that's if you're talking like the 36th centuries, when people refer to India, it could

refer to a lot of different places. Sometimes they use that term for like East Africa, Arabia, various parts of the Indian Ocean. So we have that in the sources, right? People in the Roman Empire thinking of Thomas as having gone to India and preached there, but where they're getting that information is a little bit harder to establish. They could all be getting it from this one single text. traditional tradition. Do these proclaimed Christians in South India, these Tamishan, I don't know what you necessarily call them, I guess the followers of Thomas's message, do they predate the discovery of the text? It's a little bit harder to tell because that gets us into questions about when we think Christianity arrives in India. Do we think that Thomas went there?

during what we would think of as the medieval period, there are certainly Christians in India, right? And there are various narratives from say, like the Islamic world and so forth that talk about that. And, you know, when the Portuguese show up, right, circa 1500, they're Christians there, and they have that tradition. But how far back do they go? You know, it's a little bit harder to tell just based on the nature of the documents at our disposal. Now, one way to think about it is that, you know, the apostle gets there, establishes these communities, and from there you have their tradition. Another way to take it is that maybe, you know, at a certain point as Christianity moves through Asia, right, there's this text in the Acts of Thomas. There's this narrative tradition that's about apostle who goes to India to preach.

And as it circulates, people embrace that tradition, right? There are different ways to theorize it. Interesting. But certainly the Thomas Christians in India, they think. see this as going back to either him or a fourth century figure in their view that's also called Thomas. And yeah, so the relationship between those two Thomas is a little bit hard to configure. Are the Portuguese that land in India that settled there? Are they surprised that there's Christians there? I think to a certain degree they are because I don't know how much they knew. There were always,

and this is getting us well beyond my expertise. But what I have been exposed to suggest that, you know, over the course of medieval Europe, there's an awareness that there are Christians in various hinterlands of Asia, right? You know, there's traditions about, you know, a certain figure called, you know, Prestor John, stuff like that. Interesting. And there's an awareness, especially as Europeans, you know, start to make various pilgrimage to like, you know, Mongol colonnates and stuff like that. You know, they're encountering Christians that, you know, originate from the Persian Church to the East and have a different theology. maybe a somewhat different Bible, but largely the same. Interesting. And yeah. So what's actually in the Acts of Thomas? Like take us through the details of what is actually written. Right.

So what essentially happens is that it's almost in continuity with the acts of the apostles from the New Testament, right? So, right, Jesus has recently been crucified. The apostles are trying to figure out what to do. They decide that they're going to preach a message, and they're all going to have like a different part of the world. they preach in and they're casting lots. And Thomas gets India. The author of the text is apparently aware of the way that Thomas is depicted in the Gospel of John, where he tends to be a bit doubtful,

a bit non-compliant, let's say, and he doesn't want to go. And what happens is that when he refuses, Jesus appears to him, you know, recently resurrected, and says, you need to go to India and he refuses. and from there it just so happens in the narrative that there's a merchant from India in Jerusalem who wants to take a craftsperson to India to build a palace for his king. And Jesus appears to him and he says, I have someone I want to sell to you into slavery. And so they have this transaction and Thomas becomes enslaved. And it's a fascinating sequence for a lot of reasons,

in part because it's so strange that in some ways Jesus shows up to someone and seems to be like, I want to engage in a transaction with you. If you imagine maybe Jesus appearing and communicating a big cosmic message or something like that, that's not what happens to this merchant, right? But the transaction, as far as I can reconstruct, is actually just, it breaks just about every Roman law he can think of, right? Because it's illegal to sell free people into enslavement. And so, of course, for very, very justifiable reasons nowadays, you know, we would never find slavery humorous, right? It's awful and it's despicable.

But if you're thinking of like a Roman audience, it's very desensitized to slavery, that might come across a sort of funny, right? Jesus is resurrected and what's the first thing he does? Fraud. Right? Illegal transaction. And then he writes up a bill of sale, which he has no authority to write. Yeah, he's doing all this stuff that technically is very sketchy from a Roman legal perspective,

but that's the mechanism in the text that gets this apostle to India to preach. And from there, there's a lot of debate about how historically accurate that is because the text is generally very vague. You don't get a lot of specific topographical features. You don't get police names by and large on those types of details. but the king that he's supposed to build a palace for is actually the name of a real first century king in India. Yeah, Gondofaris, right? It's a sort of, it's a Parthian name.

But that name is attested, and so how does the author of this text know this name is a big, big question, right? And that king, we know exist from inscriptions, coins, stuff like that. And so from there, right, there's a lot of working out, right? what is this in terms of like historical framing what is it depicting is it an accurate interpretation of an apostle going to india or if you don't believe that the apostle went to india could at least be a stand in for some phenomenon the gut christianity to india early what's up guys we're going to take a break really quick because you are a grown child yes you're a giant man child and you just love stuff in your face and all the sugary cereals he ate when you were a kid When you're just a fat little eight-year-old, you would sit down on your couch and you would just eat these sugary cereals.

And nowadays, you try to do that like I have. You feel terrible. You go, oh, yeah, my blood pressure is rising. I do get a hangover from eating these cereals that I ate when I was a child. And that's what I want to talk to you about Magic Spoon. This thing right here, freshly opened because I was just engorging myself. Magic Spoon is all the flavors that you love that come from your favorite, nostalgic cereals, flavors like fruity, cocoa, frosted.

Do those sound familiar to you? Because legally, I can't say what they are, but those are the flavors that MagicSpoon has. And here's what's amazing about Magic Spoon. It's the same taste. It's all the flavor packed into every bite from those childhood cereals, but 13 grams of protein, zero grams of sugar, and four grams of net carbs. Yeah, imagine that. 13 grams of protein.

This is protein-packed cereal. So instead of being a little fat, kid, you can sit down on Sunday morning, watch your cartoons, and get freaking jacked. Yeah, you look like Ronnie Coleman or something. You keep on crushing these, you're going to be diesel as hell. So instead of being a little fat boy, you can be a giant strong man, but still keep your same habits of just sitting down and watching your cartoons. And for the listeners of this program, if you go to magic spoon.com slash camp, that's right,

magic spoon.com slash C-A-M-P, you're going to get $5 off your next order, five whole dollars that you can save and apply to therapy. for figuring out your disgusting twisted childhood of stuff in your face with processed sugars and red dye 40 and stuff like that. But with MagicSpoon, you don't have to worry about any of that stuff. It's all good, 13 grams of protein, none of the sugar, four grams of carbs, get it today, MagicSpoon on Amazon or at your nearest grocery store, or you can go to magic spoon.com slash camp, C-A-M-P for $5 off. Now let's get back to the show, you fatty. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I need to tell you about how.

you are potentially entitled for some compensation. That's right. You may have been injured without even knowing it. And I think statistically most Americans have been injured by this. We know that our food is poison. Many of these companies, these massive conglomerates, are pumping our food with stabilizers and gums and other processed chemicals that are legal in most other countries. But for some reason, America, they are fully legal. And they are allegedly causing many health problems. That's a very small alleged. I actually just read a book about this, ultra-processed humans. It's fascinating that the processed chemicals that are going into our foods are terrible for you. I mean, if you were to take a baked cookie and a cookie that's filled with

processed preservatives, even if they have the same exact nutritional profile, the one with the preservatives and all the gums and stabilizers and ultra-processing chemicals is going to be worse for you by a far, far margin. So if you have been exposed to many of these ultra-processed foods, they've been known to be addicted, they've been known to target children, and they can potentially cause chronic diseases such as type 2 diabetes, fatty liver disease, both of which were unheard of 40 years ago, but now affect the lives of thousands of children. It looks like the people over at Morgan and Morgan are fighting for the people once again.

That's right. Morgan and Morgan, America's largest law firm. I mean, they have handled thousands of thousands of cases, recovered billions of dollars for their clients, and now they are targeting the ultra-processed food giants of the world. Okay? So if you or your child has been diagnosed with one of these diseases that I mentioned before, you may have legal options. They have helped thousands of families seek justice against these big corporations, and they are ready to fight for you as well. So if you were interested, go to for the people.com slash gagnon. That's right.

That is F-O-R-the-people.com slash Gagnon if you're interested in potentially hearing more about the way that these companies can be affecting you and your health and the health of your family and how you may be entitled for compensation because of that. Now, I do have to disclose this is a paid advertisement. Now, let's get back to the show. Interesting. Does the text say anything about Thomas's work in India? Like, what was he doing there? Obviously, he's now sold into slavery, but does it talk about him, you know, assembling? other followers? Yeah, it does actually. And so what he does is that he gets there and he starts

working on this palace. And again, if we're talking about how apparently ancient Christians often had a sense of humor, there's like this funny sequence where he's supposed to be getting this palace built. And as we sometimes hear contractors doing, right, he's going way over budget and he's way over scheduled. And he keeps saying to the king, I need more money. But whenever he gets it, he distributes it to the poor, because that's what good apostles do, right? Part of that message of Jesus and so forth. This sounds extremely accurate so far. The idea of a contractor, like trying to hassle something.

Sounds about right. Yeah, sort of how he's depicted, right? He's, you know, he keeps saying, I need more money. Sorry, I'm not done. So finally the king gets fed up and he goes to see the palace and he's there at the site of the palace, there's no palace at all, not a trace. and Thomas is just like, oh, I'm sorry for the confusion. I'm not building you a palace on earth and building you one in heaven. I've heard this before.

Yeah, you might have heard of it. Classic sales pitch. My mom's trying to get her pool deck fixed. And the guy's like, look, the pool deck is in heaven, right? So, oh, gosh. So what is the kingdom? He gets really, really angry. He doesn't, you know, he thinks he's been ripped off.

And so he puts, you know, Thomas in prison. But then his brother dies. and while his brother, you know, I guess his spirit is departing from his body, you know, it goes up to the sky and it sees a bunch of angels in this luminous palace. And then his brother's revived and it says, the heavenly palace is real. And at that moment, right, the king is won over. And if not explicitly, at least implicitly now, believes, right, Thomas's message, right, about Jesus and, you know, salvation and so forth. but what the text does and what makes it somewhat fascinating is that it is very, very rigorously against all forms of sex, including sex and marriage. Right? Thomas's main message, as he's going about various places in India and attracting followers, is that people should not ever have sex.

And he's often targeting married people, married to each other. And a lot of the plot kind of is driven by that message. And so very often what's happening is that he's convincing. women in particular not to sleep with their husbands and their husbands are furious. And that's actually kind of what gets him martyred in the textual sequence. He does this enough with powerful enough

members of the political elite that they persuade a king to imprison him and have him executed actually. Wow. So there's like a big underpinning of like sexual purity throughout the text. Yeah. Oh, strange. I wonder if that carries on today because I'm married and yeah, sex doesn't really seem to be a big priority.

But, uh, so it's interesting. Maybe, maybe my wife has read the Acts of Thomas. But that's interesting that this pervades throughout the text that he's so concerned with sexual abstinence. Yeah, it's so, I mean, it's intriguing because, I mean, that, that Vena thought certainly exists throughout early Christianity, but it doesn't, it's not what you would think of as dominant, right, you know, as the church forms and gets established. It's not quite the opposite.

I mean, nowadays, like, it's very common for Christians, have very many kids and that, you know, go forth and be fruitful. And, like, that message seems, you know, very much ingrained in Christian dogma. Yeah. It's interesting that that would be so antithetical to the point. And now, was this text, does it basically end there that the king is then, you know, converted and that his, you know, his kingdom is converted and that that that is like a Christian, a Christian place? It doesn't say that explicitly intriguing because what happens is that once his job is done. And the name of the king is actually a name that is the name of kings from North India, a very far, far distance from where Thomas Christians now live in South India. Right. Nowadays we think of it from a modern vantage point, India is sort of a unified landmass and, you know, European colonialism has treated that way.

In that time, it would have just been sort of like warring different tribal groups to some capacity. like different kingdoms, I imagine, controlling different, different geographical areas. Yeah, precisely. So different, you know, different polities, different states, different cities, different governments, right? And so, you know, if Thomas is in one place, it means he's not necessarily doing work in another, arguably. But once he, you know, he does that whole palace business of his, he basically leaves that realm and he's just, he's traveling, he's very it's a tenorant. And when he's executed, it's a different king. Now, you had mentioned that there's like a polymorphic element to Thomas in the text. Yeah. What do you mean by that? Essentially,

what happens is that without the narrative, right, Thomas is portrayed as Jesus' twin, visual twin, maybe even a brother. There's some ambiguity there. And when Jesus is normally appearing, he looks like Thomas. And Thomas' name is actually derived from the ear, Aramaic word for twin, right? And thus when his name is often translated into Greek, it says didamos, which is the Greek word for twin. So there's this notion of visual duplication, but when Jesus, right, you know, who's at this point post-resurrection, right? Much more spiritual and celestial than, you know, human right? In formation, he can change his shapes a lot.

And he's depicted as doing that. And part of them, if you want to put it, like the humor of the text, is that sometimes, is when Jesus looks just like Thomas, he will do things to offend people. And then when Thomas shows up a little bit later, there are all these people who really hate him. And it's not immediately a killer why, but his visual duplicate is doing stuff

that gets him into, like, trouble and stuff. What's an example of this? I mean, this is a hilarious prank. And this is wild. Yeah, you know, well, basically, probably doing what Thomas would do. I'd have to go back for, like, a very specific example that brings it home.

But, like, you know, basically preaching that, you know, people were sinful, you know, sex is dirty, so on and so forth. And then Thomas shows up and they're like, yo, what were you talking about? Yeah. What do you mean? Yeah. Oh, wow.

Yeah. And so the text says that it was Christ in sort of the visual apparition of Thomas that was saying these things? It's not really, the text is a very complicated tradition behind it, at least in my view. It's not immediately evident from the beginning that their visual duplication. But as you read through the text, it becomes a bit more obvious, right? And the text signposts that a lot better. Interesting. And so what happens is that Thomas comes into a town and these people are like, how dare you do this to us?

Right? And they're angry that he did something that he has no knowledge of doing. He probably saw the Kamasutra. I was like, yeah, you guys are going crazy. You guys are absolutely going wild over here. That is fascinating. And so his name in the text is Thomas Didimus. at least at certain parts at the beginning when it's spelled out for the most part

what happens is that you normally just call Judas actually and sometimes just called the apostle but when the name is elaborated at its fullest it's Judas Thomas also didamos or Judas Thomas. Interesting and obviously Judas Thomas being different than Judas of Ascariat and that was just a common name at the time. Yeah that's a very common name. Judas I see. Yeah. That's I mean what a fascinating text. Is there any other Pieces of the text that you find particularly confusing or interesting. Oh, I mean, I always just found that opening sequence. I tried to imagine how that trip would work because, you know, the board a ship in Jerusalem is still directly to India, right?

And from there, it's a question of, man. Yeah. That's impressive. There's no direct line that they could have sailed to get there, right? Like, they would have had to go through the Mediterranean and around South Africa. Is that... There is in at least certain parts of the Roman Empire, at least with some probability, like an ancient version of the Suez Canal. Oh, it's possible that the Suez Canal was open at that point.

Basically, something very similar to it, yeah. Or that they transported through land at a certain point that got back on another ship, I guess. It would have had to be the case because, you know, Jerusalem's also not a port city per se, right? And so you wonder, you wonder whether, like, things are being alighted out, right? you know, whether they went to the coast and got on in a ship and that just doesn't get narrated that way precisely. What a bizarre text. Yeah, it's fascinating. And so I often found that to be, you know, one of the remarkable things about it.

And, you know, when I've done work in the past and trying to figure out how Christianity, right, is traveling across Asia and how Christian communities are being established, a big question is how does this text relate? What does it mean? How do you do history with it? I mean, because of questions like this is very, very hard. Right, yeah. So would this text have been available to the early church fathers as they were sort of establishing the canon? Yes. Oh, really?

So it's possible that they actually consider this like at Nicaa or a different council and discarded it from being a part of the canon? Yeah, basically. In my view, the text might have been composed just late enough, depending on how it circulates, for people not really to be aware of it quite by like the early 4th century. But certainly over the course of the 4th century, as they're still thinking about what that canon is, yeah, they do know about it. And there might have been a precursor to it that's laws that focuses on Thomas and Parthia, basically like the Iranian world. And the reason why we say that is because when, you know, the patristic text first start to talk about Thomas as having preached somewhere, being martyred somewhere, and so forth, they often refer to Parthia. And so like Eusebius, I'm not sure if you're familiar. He wrote some very important, you know, he wrote an important church history at around the year 300.

Right. He mentions, he's aware of a tradition that Thomas went to Parthia, for example, and things like that. And so there seems to be another tradition that's circulating that's equally apocryphal that we aren't able, you know, really to read. And as, you know, we've discussed in another episode, we talked about how much doesn't really survive from antiquity. and it's always hard to pin the logic as to why that is. But in the fourth century, what happens is that it gets marked as a text that really shouldn't be in the New Testament canon. Like Augustine of Hippo has a lot of disapproving things to say about it. Oh, really?

For example, yeah. And what specifically does he highlight, like the idea that Christ would sell into slavery, things like that? I think the theology troubles people for one thing, right? Because at that point, a lot of the people who are running, like, you know, church institutions, they accept that. Yes, asceticism is great. Being a celibate, being a monk is great, but it's not sinful per se to get married and reproduce. The text becomes very popular among Moniqueans, right? So there's a very famous preacher in third century Mesopotamia in the Iranian world named Moni.

And he establishes a religion that's in many ways related to Christianity, but it interweaves other traditions, oralastrianism, Buddhism. and what's fascinating is that sometimes texts that are popular among Christians are also popular among monochians. And, you know, Augustine was once a monochian, actually, right? Before, you know, he left that particular movement and became, right, you know, an icing Christian. And I think sometimes when a text is very popular among monochians, it can sometimes elicit, right, suspicion from, you know, from, you know, church authorities who don't want other people reading it.

Interesting. Yeah, but the theology is different, right? It's moral message is different. And, yeah, you know, it does, it gets a circulation among people that someone like Augustine would have defined as either heretical or not Christian. And I think these things factor in. Fascinating. What a bizarre text.

What is the accepted church literature for what Thomas's actual, proselytizing sort of path was. Like, what is generally accepted? Right. What's generally accepted, I mean, I think what happens with these texts, you know, what is often called, you know, the apostolic apocrypha. I think, at least in my limited experience, and this is where my expertise will probably fail me a bit, but I think what happens is that, you know, it's helpful to have traditions that apostles did stuff early, right? It's also a way of explaining like a lot of what's happening with like, you know, the rise of Christianity and say like, say the second century, that's otherwise hard to explain or even before that, understanding the apostolic era. I think what happens is that what can sometimes be formalized in teaching is stuff from those texts, even though the text themselves are sort of disavowed.

Because what happens is that, you know, some of the church fathers, they don't want people reading this text, but they also think Thomas went to India. Hmm. Right? They accept that basic premise that seems to originate with the text, but then they just don't want other people reading it and getting maybe like, you know, exposure to some of the other stuff. Interesting. So there is a general acceptance that Thomas had gone to India, but this text is not the account of what happened. I'm thinking like, you know, yeah, in Christian tradition or traditions generally, that has been accepted, right? you know, in terms of like, you know, a historical faith standpoint, right?

Thomas is the one that went east. And if you didn't go to India, he might have went to places that could be construed as India, Ethiopia, stuff like that. Yeah. Interesting. I think that tradition gets accepted in the same way that, you know, a lot of Christian traditions except that, you know, Peter was the first pope, even though that's also to some degree something that's more espoused by apocryphal traditions, right, than what's. strictly speaking in the New Testament. There's certain passages from the Gospels can be read to signify that, but the elaboration

comes from other text. Interesting. So this king, this Indian king, who's corroborated throughout other texts, is there any other corroborating evidence that he actually converts or accepts the gospel of Christ or anything that is outside of this text? Unfortunately, no, not really. So the name is one that multiple kings use. I see.

It's sort of like the name Augustus, if you're into Roman history, right? It's someone's personal name when he's emperor, but then afterwards, every emperor gets called that. And what it looks like is that in the first century CE, speaking roughly, because the chronology can actually be much harder to work out than, say, you know, things that happen in Roman territory, someone has that name and then other subsequent kings adopt that same name. King Louis could be referring to many different kings.

Interesting. But the one that people typically think that's representing in some ways is the one that has some of the better documentation. Like there's an inscription, right, that he left certain coins with his name on it. I personally haven't seen anything that would suggest that he necessarily converted. Though, you know, as things often happen, their ways, right, to make that argument, I suppose, if one wants to read into certain symbolism or things like that. Are there many other books pertaining to this sort of apollistic apocrypha, as you described it? Obviously, this one being, you know, very interesting and bizarre, but are there many others that sort of have a alternative tale about what happens to the other apostles?

Yeah, there are actually quite a few. And then what happens is that by the time you get to like the four, fifth, sixth centuries, he won't even start to have lists of apostles, right? And so technically, they're almost, for lack of a better way of describing it, almost cliff note versions of what the apocrypha say. So someone to write a text and I'll have like where all the 12 apostles were born, preached and died. And then if they really are really trying to, you know, know, be informative, they might even talk about the apostles, certain prophets. That literature really takes off in late antiquity because people are interested. And a lot of these, you know, cliff notes, they're really derived from the apocrypha, right? And so I think what happens in my experience is that, you know, people, early Christians, they largely take these traditions seriously, but they don't always like the text, right, that is sort of the main source. And I think what they do is they sort of sometimes try to isolate one from the other.

I see. So they're accepted sort of in like oral tradition, but they're not a part of the canon, but they inform our view of history, but don't really read into it too closely. Yeah, yeah. And so, for example, you brought up the papacy of Peter, which I've heard throughout the gospels, you know, like Christ sort of says, like, you know, upon you, you, I'll build my church. Right. You are the rock, you know, Petros, like, you were going to be the foundational, you know,

church father, but are there other apocryphal texts that reference Peter becoming the first pope, quote unquote? Yeah, there are apocryphal texts that basically they associate Peter much more closely with Rome preaching there, being martyred there, and that's in the, you know, the text that are typically called apocryphal because people don't know what else to call them. And what are the names of those texts? Um, Acts of Peter. Okay.

So the Acts of Peter is similar to Acts of Thomas. Yeah. Interesting. And do you know much about the acts of Peter and what's in there? Is there anything that's bizarre, unusual in the way that the acts of Thomas? Yeah. I know a little bit, I would say less, just because my scholarship hasn't gone in that direction. But I can certainly say a few things, right? There's one text called the Gospel of Peter. It survives partially, although we know that people were reading it in North Syria around 200 because that author I mentioned earlier, Ucbius talks about it. And he knows someone, or he knows of someone who discovered this gospel and that people were taking it seriously. And a part of it survives. And it actually has a narration of Jesus' crucifixion, right? The topic of, you know, another one of our conversations that actually, you know, really shifts the agency from Roman authority to people in Jewish society. They play much more prominent role.

And if I recall, collect, even here at Antipause is involved more heavily too, right? And I think in the Acts of Thomas, one of the main things that happens is that he's debating oftentimes someone, if I recall correctly, someone named Simon Magus, who is sort of... Is the Acts of Peter or Acts of Thomas? I'm sorry. Axe of Peter, I should have said. No, all good. I just want to make sure I'm tracking. Okay, so he references who?

Yeah, there's a tradition that Peter had this debate with someone called Simon, who, if I recall correctly, maybe traces in the Acts of the Apostles or something. And that person's depicted as like a conjurer. I was just reading about this guy, but his name's Simon Magus. Yeah. And he was able to levitate and do all sorts of miraculous things. He was like a witch, basically, like a warlock or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And this is written about in the Acts of Peter. If I got out of correctly, certainly in one of the texts, right, associated with the Peter's, you know, apocryphal tradition, so to speak, yeah. And what does he say about it? Creasasas, would you actually mind pulling up the Wikipedia for Simon Megas? This guy is fascinating. I was just reading his, his Wikipedia the other day. I was like, this is wild. Yeah.

And so what is there to say about that in the acts of Peter? Yeah, I mean, I don't remember anything too vividly, to be honest. you know, they have a debate there's sort of this trial where they're pitted against one another and they're trying to demonstrate, I guess, who really has, you know, divine backing, right? Oh, wow. And Peter predicted the wins because he can do everything Simon does

or undo everything Simon does. Oh, interesting. Okay, let's take a look. It means magician, Simon the magician. Yeah, it's a religious figure who confronts Peter in the acts of the apostles, the act of simony or paying for position

is named after Simon. No, that's right, yeah. Oh, wow. That's fascinating. Okay, this is fascinating. So Justin, he's a native of Samaria. The apocryphal works, including the acts of Peter,

Simon appears as a formidable sorcerer with the ability to levitate and fly at will. He is sometimes referred to as the bad Samaritan. Huh, that's funny. I like that. I like that. The bad Samaritan. Dude, his malevolent character.

Yeah. Wow. This is fascinating. And this is a part of, I guess, like a Gnostic tradition, as it says here. Yeah, a lot of the, like, apostolic apocrypha, they often are thought of as having Gnostic leanings for various reasons. Scholars, you know, debate this and what it means for something to be Gnostic. I'm no expert necessarily on ancient Gnosticism, but sometimes it can be ascribed to all sorts of different text and worldviews. And then sometimes, you know, times hard to spell out, right? You know, whether a text is really Gnostic or not, but yeah. Right. But that concept is often associated with a lot of, like, you know, apocryphal gospels and... Right.

I guess a Gnostic text would be something that kind of reinterprets or undermines, perhaps, like, the divinity of Christ or God, but still sort of accepts some of the, the existence of these characters. Is that fair to say? Yeah, along those lines, you know, for me, I think usually when there's like that emphasis on something being Gnostic, it reflects a certain worldview that, like, to really know the cosmos, right? It's from the Greek word for knowing Gnosis. Certain people have this knowledge that other people don't have, right? It may be even somewhat predestined to have it. Right. And I think very often people are classifying text that they fall within that spectrum, right? They might, you know, talk about it as being Gnostic. but if they don't, right? They don't. Interesting. Wow. I mean, these are fascinating.

These other apocryphal texts. It says here in the acts of Peter, the hostile crowd then stoned him. He's great. Oh, wow. I mean, this is fascinating. If you don't mind, I'll read this. Oh, my all means. I have to go back to myself.

It's been a while. This is great. The Apostle Peter prays to God to, okay, this is fascinating. Okay. So Simon's performing magic in the forum, and in order to prove himself to be a God, he levitates into air above the. the forum. Peter prays to God to stop his flying and he stops midair and falls into a place, meaning the holy way, the sacravia, breaking his legs in three parts. And the hostile crowd,

or the previously non-hostile crowd, stones him. Now gravely injured, he has some people carry him on a bed at night from Rome to Arrishia or Arirchia and is brought from there to a different place to a person named Castor, who has been banished from Rome on a council. of sorcery, the ax then continued to say that he died while being sorely cut by two physicians. I mean, what? Yeah, there's all this material in there and where it comes from. Yeah, you know. What's up, guys?

We're going to take a break really quick because I'm sitting here in my beautiful tent, as you can see, every week, day in, day out. And people always ask, they say, Mark, how do I have a tent like that? I want to sit in a beautiful tent and invite a lover, a friend, you know, someone that I appreciate and adore. I want to give them a good time inside my tent. Well, it's easy. Thanks to the good folks over at bluechew.com.

That's right. Bluechew is the original OG brand offering chewable tablets. And what do these tablets do? Oh, I'm glad you asked. They are going to give you the, just a stronger, harder, and longer lasting sexual performance. That's right. They're going to help you pitch a tent any place, anywhere.

And the best part, it's all done online. That means you don't have to go. to a doctor's office and talk to him and be like, oh, you know, I'm feeling some type of way. Look, this is not for people that are, you know, lacking necessarily. This is for people to want to have the best experience of their life, whether it's Valentine's Day, birthday, a funeral. Who knows, whenever you need it, you never know when you could use Blue Chew. And we have a special deal for the listeners of this program.

That's right. Try your first month of Blue Chew for free. That's right, completely free. Mark, is it going to work for me? Hey, it's free. Why not just try it? Visit blotchew.com for more details and important safety information

and we thank Bluchu for sponsoring this podcast. All right, now let's get after it and let's get back to the show. I'm so curious. Growing up, obviously, Catholic, like you kind of accepted the canon is the divinely inspired word of God and these apocryful texts are, you know,

imitations or hoaxes or some other thing. But I'm so curious why someone would write this You know, this is sort of with the presumption that the Gospels are somewhat historical and somewhat accurately portraying the events that occurred. But then you have these other texts that are just fan fiction. Is this someone that is trying to disrupt the Christian order by inserting, you know, quasi-believable texts? Like, I'm curious if you have any theory as to why someone would write a text like this. Or are they all acting in the same way and some of them just get, you know, sort of absorbed into what we know is the canon? Right. I think what happens is that, you know, as Christian communities are taking shape and they're forming, right, I think people are just curious to know, right, about their own past.

Presumably, the various types of stories or tales are circulating with different people believing them more than others, at least how I would imagine it. and but there are you know internal debates right um and which you know people of different interpretations of christianity right are producing text to espouse that that that perspective you know if we go back to the acts of thomas or as we mentioned whoever is responsible for producing that clearly believed in a version of christianity where people don't have sex right and so i think to some degree as christians are working out like who they are what are practices what are our beliefs beliefs. They also are looking to something of an historical past. Um, and this inspires like these narratives that start to take shape about, you know, what were, who are the apostles? What were they doing?

What were they arguing? Who were the frauds? Right. Um, and with different traditions prioritizing some apostles more than others. And when we talk about like the New Testament, as you point out, like, in the fourth century, that's when, you know, like the canon as we know it, it starts to become a bit more consolidated and church authorities are increasingly in some agreement, but not universal. What's happening throughout this period is that different Christians have a different perspective on which text or authoritative and how. So maybe sometimes the apocrypha, you don't believe the entire message, but you do believe that maybe, yeah, an apostle went here and preached. or maybe you actually do see this as as authoritative as another gospel, you know, that ends up in the New Testament, right? Fascinating. Are there any other apocryphal texts that you find strange?

Again, I know this is a little bit outside of your purview, but are there any others that you find particularly interesting in this sort of early Christian period as, you know, prior to the church actually having a counsel to agree what things should be. Is there anything else that sticks out? Yeah, one thing that would leap to mind is that if I recall correctly, there are like traditions for apostles. I think Andrew, if I remember correctly, going to like northern regions and dealing with like cannibal people, yeah, who eat people basically, right, stuff like that. Pull it up. What's it called? The Acts of Andrew. The Axe of Andrew. Don't quote me on that because I might be dipping deep into my memory. But we're going to, we're going to get in this is great. Acts of Andrew. This is fascinating. Okay. Yeah. And so basically Andrew then goes and goes and. To the northern regions of where exactly? Yeah. Oh, okay. I guess maybe I was right.

Among the people who eat people. The acts of Andrew and Matthias. Amongst the Anthropo... Anthropophagi? That's Greek for people eaters. Oh, really? Yeah. I like that you made me try to figure that out.

You knew the word and you're like, I'll let him try that. I was mostly relieved that I remembered that stuff I correctly. And... Oh, this is fascinating. So it exists in several Latin manuscripts. Could you scroll down just a touch there, Chrisos? It is the dramatic romance featuring the Apostles Andrew and Matthias among cannibals. Wow.

Okay, so they go amongst these cannibals into a thriller featuring gory details was written for a Christian audience in the second century. Oh, wow. Okay, so what does it say here? Belonging in the middle of the second century, the apocry the apocryal text relates that matias went among the cannibals and being cast into prison was delivered by andrew it is considered to be a romance and is understood to have no historical value yeah heinz hoffman classes it is secondary apocrypha and is derived from other apocryphal sources ghoulish man-eaters remind hoffman of the killing of socrates by the witch merrow in metamorphosis i mean fascinating uh i'm just again constantly just so interested in these texts and like why they arise and, you know, what they mean for the people of the time. I guess they read this almost as like a fan fiction, like this one specifically, or do you think any of them read this as

like, you know, proper historical text in that time? I honestly do not know. I think all of these are possibilities, though. If I recall correctly, in some of those like Cliff Note versions I've told you about, you know, Andrews, I think, described as going, right, to some northerly region, consistent with that textual tradition Wow And yeah And so there's just a lot of material like that I mean

And how it's supposed to be read Is a fascinating question And yeah What northernly region could this be? Is this like in Western Europe? Yeah what happens is that In ancient literature The farther north you go

The more That People are betrayed As doing almost the opposite of what people like in say Mediterranean society do. And there's like a stereotype in like Greek and Roman literature that people living in like, you know, the hinterland of Europe further north. Yeah, engaged in practices in which, you know, yeah, they ate people or was considered an act of piety to murder their own parents. Oh, wow.

Right? You get these tales and, right, the Christian literature, you know, a lot of it being written by people living, right, in, you know, Roman areas or places with, like, you know, longstanding Greek populations. You know, they're filtering stuff like that, I think. And it makes their way into, you know, how they're either, yeah, historicizing or romanticizing apostolic figures. Interesting. Okay. So let's ground ourselves in some actual history. in that case.

Sure. How would you describe, if there is such a thing as actual history, how would you describe, you know, the story of Christianity sort of spreading through the Roman Empire after the death of Christ, but also through the East? Right. I mean, the way that I've often tried to historicize it moving eastward, and the narratives that I've accepted, say, moving westward, Paul, right, is that, you know, a lot of the narratives, and these include, like, the text that we're talking about, what they typically

do is they depict an apostle. who shows up in some place where they're total strangers very often. And they preach a message and it's instantaneously compelling to at least some people. And other people are offended. Or they're defended that it's compelling to some people. And the text seemed to intimate that that outcome is inevitable, right? A stranger comes to you, tells you that what you're doing is wrong. like, not the way to live. You should do something else. You're going to accept that instantaneously.

And that's sort of, you know, the way that these narratives often present, right, conversion to Christianity and so forth. And so when people are trying to figure out, like, the historical aspects, they certainly look at the text as ways that people might be thinking about their past or maybe not if they just see this as a story, right? but I think the type of historical work that I often find compelling it almost humanizes actually early preachers or apostles right they're living in another city

they're working there they're making friends when there's a certain level of trust they communicate about this sort of thing right and some people read certain letters of Paul that way when I was working on

Christian in these eastward movement that's how largely in my view I was thinking about it right you have people they are Christian they're moving about they're living in different places

they may not be doing it just to preach or even foremost to preach maybe they moved for work maybe they're merchants and they're living in a place and when they are engaging transactions of people they know

and build a certain level of you know reciprocal respect maybe they start to have conversations about what they believe cosmically Um, that's how often I thought about it. And so I typically think that what's happening is that there's social bonds being formed. Um, but the lead off is not necessarily, say the gospel message necessarily that comes and it's important. Um, and for me, the reason why I thought this was important, um, was because I think that Christianity often moves as far as people are traveling and living for other reasons than preaching. Right. Right. But when they're in a place, then there are these. Um, and they're these. moments that afford themselves where they preach. And, you know, they create communities that lay

strong roots. And then maybe from there they move on. There are arguments against thinking of that way. One thinks of like Moni, who I mentioned earlier, he seems to be traveling far and wide. And, you know, that actually more resembles what you see apostles being, you know, portrayed as doing. But that's for me of what I often find compelling. But it may just reflect my own limitations as a person who's often convinced by close friends. Yeah. Same. People that I trust, right?

Then, you know, someone that I've never met who has an opinion about me and what I should be doing. Sure. Yeah, that's interesting. Do you know which apostle, according to historical record, went the farthest? Oh, the farthest. Yeah, I'd be curious to know. I mean, if we accept, you know, that Thomas went to India or a place known as India, perhaps that would be the farthest in that lifetime. Yeah.

And there are traditions that even build on that and that have him going as far east as China. Really? Thomas specifically? Yeah. Interesting. It's not spelled out in the acts of Thomas per se. But what happens is that once that narrative, right, becomes popular, you can build on it. Right?

And people do. And so by the fourth, fifth centuries, and then certainly subsequently you start to hear about him in places like sheer, which would more or less be the place where the Ceres live, the Ceres being the silk producers, which seems to be a way that, you know, Greeks talk about like northwestern China, so on and so forth. And so, yeah, not having an intimate knowledge of all the traditions of all that apostles. I'd mean towards Thomas, so I'm biased in that respect, you know, is someone who, wow. It's long been fascinated by that particular apostle, right, and the narratives about him. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. And now as far as Christianity spread through the Roman Empire, right, the,

The, like shortly after Christ's death, I imagine, you know, based off what I've heard, that there was a lot of persecution of Christians. Right. How does that, you know, come to be? What does that look like? Like, what do early Christians, what are they doing that leads them to be persecuted in that way? Right. Well, I think of what happens in my view. And this actually relates to a different episode we did on the trial of Jesus. I think what happens is that as they're settling in different places and, you know, over the course of time, time, right? Eventually, they're going to create what becomes Christianity. A lot of scholarships

still thinks of them as a specific movement in, you know, Judaism, so to speak, in the first century. But I think what's happening is that, right, they sort of have a high threshold for group membership. They typically are meeting, right, I don't want to say in secret, but that might be how it gets perceived, right? You know, they have small congregations that, you know, are kind of inclusive in the sense that, you know, people who have met the threshold for memberships are embraced, but, you know, outsiders don't just, you know, participate in these rights necessarily unless, like, you know, they have gone through and have met that threshold. You know, they don't worship the gods that their neighbors worship, or for that matter, the Roman Emperor, which is also something that's becoming increasingly common. and I think what starts to happen is that certain Roman authorities

and maybe sometimes certain municipal leaders wherever they're settling they think of what they're doing as somehow seditious in a certain way right there's something antithetical to the rest of society about what they're doing something that's inimical to maybe the political order what's intriguing though is that

and this relates I think to that other conversation about the trial of Jesus different governors seem to have different opinions about this right some really think that this is something that's prosecutable but others don't seem to think so they're not as bothered by it or maybe if someone accuses someone else of being a Christian they're not as inclined to get involved

right so there's also that element of like okay what are the what's the worldview of the judge right um what is their sort of you know subjectivity in terms of how they they understand things and how they understand and Christians. Some of them might think of them as different, but maybe not doing anything that's actually criminal. And that's why, you know, Christians are always arguing. You're treating

us like criminals, but what is our crime, right? Was freedom of religion accepted in the Roman Empire up until this point? In the sense that there was certainly a very high tolerance for pluralism and little expectation of universal, like, conformity to much of anything, right? And... Except the emperor. There had to be reverence for the emperor. Yeah, but even then there were exceptions, like, you know, Jews weren't expected necessarily to worship the emperor, per se. They might, you know, when the temple was active, do sacrifices on behalf of the emperor.

If you, if there's, like, say, a city is celebrating, like, I don't know, um, a municipal festival, like to the city's gods and the emperor, right? If you just don't go as a polytheist, no one's necessarily going to care. And I've had some fascinating conversations with some wonderful scholars really about this issue, right? It's intriguing that when Christians don't do this,

it becomes somewhat more important because to some degree, if you don't show up and participate, you're not necessarily being, you know, put on a blacklist or something, like that, right? Maybe it's different if you go out in public and say, these gods are not real or something like that.

Right. And maybe to some degree that's what Christians are associated with. But yeah, what happens is that, you know, there are these moments where Christians are prosecuted and executed, and their crime is by all appearances being Christian, although sometimes that might be folded into other things, like, you know, a very notorious episode under Nero. you know, whose historicity has been recently debated, but most still think that something happened

to believers in, you know, Jesus Christ at that moment, right? And what essentially happens is that I think, or as many scholars, I think, agree as the Roman Empire moves forward, you know, there are moments of what Christians certainly are experiencing as persecution, and they certainly are prosecutions and executions. and their crime, so to speak, is sort of ill-defined because it's about who they are, not necessarily an act they've done, right? Can you be a murder without committing a murder? It's an interesting philosophical question.

The Christians are like a word of our crime. You're saying we're criminals, but you haven't defined a crime unnecessarily. But it happens in the third century for various reasons. There is an effort to get people to participate in common rituals. And when Christians don't do it, they stand out a lot more. And that's when you start to see moments that are more uniformly hostile on the part of the Roman state. Interesting. Yeah, I wonder if there's anything about the sort of Christian tradition at that time that caused any issues.

Like the teachings of Christ or like communion or anything like this that early church was doing that Romans kind of balked at that they thought was bizarre. Yeah, I think, right, I think there are certainly misinterpretations, right? by the second century of what Christians are doing and you sometimes get that in Christian apologetic literature in which they're explaining why, you know, they're not guilty of anything criminal and, you know, they get accused of things like incest and, you know, of eating people and, you know,

that could be either a sincere or very unsincere misinterpretation of, you know, a feeling of fraternity, calling people as your brothers and sisters, right? Eucharist. Right? Yeah, so they get accused of doing things that Romans, or at least some Romans, think of as basically very antisocial behavior and, of course, doing it, right, where people necessarily can't see them doing it, right?

And there seems to be something subversive about that. And, you know, when you combine that with a tendency not to see the Roman emperor or other gods that protect a community in the minds of a lot of polytheists, right, as gods, or as, you know, needing worship or needing to be, you know, appeased or placated or one over or however you want to frame that, I think it does expose them to like a lot of suspicions. And as a result, right, you know, we start to see these situations where identifying as a Christian somehow becomes a prosecutable offense if you're accused of it and acknowledge it. And they're put to death in sometimes remarkable fashion. So I've been told. that there'll be public executions and gladiatorial type death rituals. Is that true? Yeah, I mean, and so far, as we're able to historicize, and all uncertainly, right, people can debate, like, whether any C. Martyr Act actually happened or not, and they do. But there is a strong weight of textual tradition indicating that the executions of Christians happen in, you know, Roman bloodsport.

Because that's actually a place where Romans did execute convicts. And, right? And, right, if Christians are being convicted of a serious criminal offense in the minds of a Roman judge, right, if they're willing to take it that level. And again, not all of them do it. But if they're willing to take at that level, that would be one place where, right, a very visible public punishment would happen. Interesting. Yeah. Wow. Now, who is the, I know Constantine, obviously, much later, kind of, you know, after a infamous battle, he and purportedly some of his, you know, soldiers, you know, see this apparition. Some suggest it's a cross in the sky and, you know, has this, you know, powerful conversion. But prior to Constantine, were there any high ranking or powerful Roman leadership that convert? Or is it really with Constantine that you see like a full-fledged conversion of the Roman Empire?

I think if we're talking about the history, it really is constant time that we're talking about. Now, over the course of late antiquity, Christians do sometimes talk about other emperors who allegedly converted, though that's not commonly accepted. And again, that might be just things invented in Christian apologetic literature. Right. And so when we're talking about Christianity and like an emperor who converts, Constantine's who we think of, especially if we're talking about public acknowledgement, right? Yeah. Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah. And then as far as apostles and sort of proselytizing outside of the Roman Empire, you know, going east, do they have an easier time? Or were they subject to the same type of punishments and, you know, death? they are exposed to prosecution and execution to certain degree. The scale gets debated, but what happens is basically there are moments in the third century where as the Sasanian Persian monarchy is sort of, you know, in a sense organizing, right, or Zoroastrian priest the hierarchy, there are moments in which there's an interest in at least, you know, Christians recognizing a certain subordination right to Zoroastrianism.

And by the fourth century, what happens is that there are some executions under a king named Shapo the Second. And those executions are portrayed as being very widespread and about trying to eliminate, you know, Christians or Christian communities. A debate that was like to what degree these are based on what's happening to Christians under the tetrarchs, right? Because once the tetrarchs really engage in large-scale persecutions of Christians, at least in certain parts of the Roman Empire, right, Christians produce a literature in which they depict members of the tetrarchy as doing awful, awful, awful things, and that circulates. And so there's a tendency after that for Christians when they historicize being persecuted, right? They return to that template.

But there are moments in which at least Christian clergy people, right, are being executed. in the fourth century. Why is somewhat debated? Is it an effort? Is it because, you know, the Persian monarchy doesn't think people should be Christian? Or is it for like a specific offense other than that? Right?

You know, disrupting tax collection being one thing that, you know, people explore. But the short answer is yes and no. So what happens in like, you know, Persian territories is that the Christians by and large are patronized. as one of the communities of that empire. And the imperial model there is that there are different peoples or their own traditions. They're embedded in a very diverse hierarchy. And they have to do certain things to be good subjects,

but largely your traditions or your traditions and you practice your traditions. Right. And that seems to be the way that the persons approach it, but there are moments where, yeah, Christians do get executed. And you're definitely not supposed to, convert a Zoroastrian into Christianity that's often deemed to be something

that's a very prohibited. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I've heard about Zoroastrianism. I know it to be, you know, one of the oldest faith traditions that's, I guess, known, Hinduism and Zoroastrianism typically

are dated to be some of the oldest. And it's interesting that it was so widespread throughout that part of Persia at that time. Did Christianity ultimately changed that, or was it Islam that came in later that kind of took out Zoroastrianism in that area? Right.

I mean, essentially, Zoroastrianism is sort of the, among, say, like, the political elite is sort of the dominant religion. Although what happens is that, you know, Christians and Jews and Sassanian and Persia also become very prominent. And as they increasingly get state patronage, right, this. a lot of coordination among those different faiths. And Christianity seems to, especially since it does proselytides and stuff, right, it seems to get a lot more momentum and numbers. And something that happens in Sassanian, Persia, is that if they're really hostile to any particular sort of religious life is polytheism, right?

So, you know, ceasing to be a polytheist and, you know, being Jewish or being a Christian actually, in many ways, it puts you in a better position probably over the course of Sassanian Persian history. Oh, interesting. And yeah. And so if Christianity, for example, is displacing like polytheism, that's not necessarily something that, you know, Persian kings or aristocrats or government officials would necessarily have objected to generally. That's my understanding. And I think, yeah, once the Sassanian Persian Empire is conquered, right? You know, and that system collapses.

That's when, in many ways, you know, Zoroastrianism goes through a different phase, right? And it seems to regress. Interesting. Yeah. And then as Christianity spreads through the Roman Empire, Constantine takes sort of a role as being this, you know, Christian Roman king or Roman emperor. is there hostility between the Jews of the Roman Empire and these, this newfound sort of like theocracy, or I guess not really a theocracy, but it's the, you know, this religiously governed, you know, power structure? Right. I would say yes, but in a certain sense, right? I think it's largely, at least in my experience of the text that I've had exposure to, it's not the hostility of Christians' operative. government, you know, towards Jews of anything.

Because they're in a very disempowered position, right, for one thing. And what's happening, especially with Constantine, is that increasingly there's a tendency for people running the Roman state, especially as they become more and more Christian, to think of Judea, right, as a Christian space, right? The birth of Christianity, the birth of Christ. Interesting. Yeah. And so that's a period where, like, you know, a lot of landmarks in Jerusalem, pilgrimage landmarks, right?

They're being identified by Christians, right? You know, there's an interest on Constantine and getting various, you know, things associated with a lifetime of Jesus or the apostolic era, right? From, yeah, from Jerusalem and things like that. And so I think what is happening in many respects over the course of, like, the fourth century in their after, is that there's sort of an isolating of Jews, you know, from that topography where they're disempowered within it, right? You know, the Romans had destroyed the temple before, but, you know, Roman Christians by and large, don't really want it to be revived, for example, right?

Right. And it doesn't even look like that Jews, by and large, can really live in Jerusalem. There's at least some sources that indicate that they're not supposed to be there except for certain, you know, festivals where they can come and pray or something. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So there is a sort of imperial hierarchy in place and the balance of power. You know, it works largely in one direction.

And right, and as Judaism transforms, right, as rabbis in particular, you know, they're starting to define what it means to be Jewish, right? You know, cognitively, Jerusalem has a very special space, but it's not like a space that, right, observing Jews' control and the way that, say, Roman Christians control. it. Interesting. And then roughly around the same time, I guess, Islam becomes a cultural force in that same region. What is it? Sixth century? Yeah. I think when like, you know, Judeo-Jer Jerusalem becomes, you know, integrated into, say, the Amaya Caliphate, 7th century. We're getting a little later than where I can speak with a lot of confidence, but yes, right? And of course, yeah, right. And so, yeah. And so, yeah. And so there's another layer of religious, you know, belief and valuing of Jerusalem as a sacred site at that point as well. Yeah, I guess I'm just trying to wrap my head around like this one spot.

Obviously, you know, in modern politics is extremely contested. And there's a ton of, you know, battles and wars and things that are happening in this space throughout, you know, all of, you know, it seems like modern history. Yeah. You know, but just seeing how it all stems really from like these pivotal moments. It's just really fascinating. You know, as much as things change, things sort of stay the same. And this one pocket of, you know, the birthplace of all the Abrahamic religions is, you know, continues to be this hotbed of religious activity. I just find remarkable.

Yeah, I do too. I mean, I think sometimes that's why, you know, oftentimes ancient history doesn't get the same attention as like, you know, modern history for various reasons. But in part because people see it as so remote and so disconnected. But in some ways, right, it actually has had, like things that have happened. and in the ancient past have had really a big impact, right, globally. And really the history of Jerusalem, you know, exemplifies that because it means different things and has different value for different people. And that valuing, you know, goes back far for all of them.

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's fascinating. I'm curious, is there, are there any other pieces of Roman history as interplays with, you know, early Christianity that you find particularly interesting? kind of as we as we just wrap up here. If there's anything else that you find that you think more people should pay more attention to that you want to underscore, I'm curious if there's anything that's on your mind.

Oh, people can pay attention to. I actually do think it really, I think knowing the history of the ancient Middle East, including the periods that we've been thinking about, actually can be very important and helpful. And I think it's actually a very important part of like a civil dialogue, right? about, you know, human rights and avoiding awful acts of mass atrocity and finding shared spaces in which people can live, right? I do think that actually factors in, which is, you know, yeah, I mean, especially in the last year and a half, I've been thinking a lot more about how I teach, right, the Middle

Eastern antiquity, right? Because I do think it's important to think about, and I think its entire history is important to understand. And I think that it's a collaborative enterprise that people have. have to engage in earnestly, right? Yeah. Well, as someone that's fascinated by history, specifically, you know, this time period, I would love to one day go to Jerusalem and, you know, see the site and see where, you know,

so much of the way we understand the modern world was sort of birthed, right? Like this one tiny little plot of land that has had such a massive, you know, global impact. Yeah. You know, and hopefully as things, you know, become more peaceful in the region that will become, you know, more available. But, yeah, it's a fascinating, it's a fascinating little, you know, place where so much has happened. And, you know, Rome certainly plays a big, big part in, you know, how all that, you know, went down. Yeah, yeah.

Rome did have that impact. Yeah. It does reverberate in its own way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, this has been fascinating, Dr. Andrade, I really appreciate you, you know, sitting with me and going through all of this. This has been wonderful. It's been a real pleasure.

Thanks so much. I really enjoyed the conversation. Absolutely. And I've learned a lot today too, actually. I'm shot. I'm shot. Well, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Let's do it again soon. If you've made it to the end of this episode, that's because you rock with us. And for that, we rock with you. You are sophisticated. You enjoy honest, true communication, a high-brow type of person that understands this. History is not just dates and names. It is a tapestry of human triumph and tragedy. From the day Nostradamus made his first prophecy to the morning Paul Revere took his midnight ride,

from ancient oracles to modern revolutionaries. That is why I need you. If you have not already, please sign up for Today in History, our free newsletter. Today in History brings you the stories that matter, the moments that changed everything and the secrets hidden in time. Join thousands of history enthusiasts who get their daily journey through time. Don't let another day of history pass you by. Take the conversation to your inbox.

Sign up now through the QR code or link in the description. Today in History. history stories shape tomorrow's world. Thank you for watching the episode, and we'll see you next time.