Camp Gagnon - Chinese Gangster on Satanic Rituals, Becoming a Cop, and NYC in the 90s

Episode Date: June 19, 2025

Mike Moy, former Fuk Ching gang member and NYPD detective, joins us in the tent today to discuss insight into being initiated into a gang through a ritual where he drank blood, how he went unnoticed while committing crimes, running a gambling house, how casinos rigged games, how Mike ended up as an NYPD detective, and other interesting stories that come out on his upcoming book, “Bad to Blue: The True Story of a Chinatown Gangster Turned NYPD Detective”… WELCOME TO CAMP 🏕️Shoutout to our sponsors:Morgan & Morgan, Bluechew, Cymbiotika, and Evil GoodsCymbiotika: Go to https://partners.cymbiotika.com/CAMP for 20% off your order + free shippingEvil Goods - Subscribe and save 30% off on beef tallow! : https://www.evilgoods.com/CAMP👕🧢 GET YOUR CAMP DRIP HERE: https://campgoods.co/🏕️ Get Today In History Email Here (Free): https://camp.beehiiv.com/🎟️ 🎫 Comedy Tour Tickets Here: https://markgagnonlive.comPre-order and purchase Mike Moy’s upcoming book, set to be released on July 1st, by following the link below: https://linktw.in/aKoXuyTimestamps:0:00 Intro1:12 Being Initiated Into The Fuk Ching9:00 Going Unnoticed Doing Crimes12:45 Billion Dollar Empire15:00 Protection w/ The Fuk Ching + Lady Poisoned By Gangsers21:10 Mike’s Role In The Gang22:28 The Games Inside Gambling Houses25:44 What Happens To Cheaters In Gambling Houses28:00 How Gangs Protect Gambling Houses33:38 Difference In American Born Chinese and Traditional Chinese 39:14 Running Vintage Collection Store48:45 Using Counterfeit In Crimes53:30 How Much Money Was Mike Making?57:18 Staying In Contact With Diamond59:01 Gambling Addiction + Baccarat1:03:45 Casinos Fixing Games1:06:59 Gambling In Chinese Culture1:09:12 Popular Gang Restaurants + Respect In Chinatown1:17:04 Conflict Between Chinese and Vietnamese Gangs1:21:37 Story of Steve Mcdonald + Joining Police Force1:34:30 First Case as a Cop1:35:54 Best Case as a Detective1:39:39 Background Check For Detective Job1:45:53 Perks of Being Street Smart as a Cop1:46:58 Italian Mob Dumps Body at Precinct1:49:49 NYPD Detective UFO Stories1:58:08 Lawsuit With NYPD2:02:09 Check Out Mike Moy’s Book Bad to Blue

This is Mike Moy. He went from running with the Fook Qing gang in Chinatown, where initiation meant drinking wine mixed with human blood to becoming a decorated NYPD detective. He's seen both sides of the badge, from backroom gambling dens to jewelry store robberies, from street codes of honor to courtroom battles with the department he once served. We talk about the ancient values that still shape modern Chinese crime, from revenge to loyalty and even the concept of face, and how these values colloquy. with the NYPD's internal politics. This is a story of a man

who lived by one code and then tried to enforce another. And what happens ultimately when they turn on? This episode is absolutely amazing and Mike is a phenomenal storyteller. He truly captures a period of New York City that no one else covers, a time in Chinatown when gangs ran the show.

If you're interested in crime and how a criminal can turn into a police officer and specifically the nuances of a culture in America that never gets highlighted in the true crime story. This is the episode for you. So sit back, relax, and welcome to Ken. Mike Moy. How are you, sir? Good, Mark.

Thank you so much for joining me in the tent. I really appreciate this. This is a long time coming, and I'm really excited to chat. For anyone that's not familiar with you, you have a fascinating life story. Born in New York City, raised in Chinatown in your teenage years, got linked up with the Fuk Ching,

Chinatown gang, you know, sort of was tangentially related to gambling houses and other types of like fraud and crime in the area. And then at a certain point, joined the NYPD and served, you know, 26 years in the police department, many of those years as a detective in Brooklyn. And you've been on both sides of the crime spectrum, you know, both as a practitioner of crime, but then also as a crime stopper. And you have a very interesting. perspective on, I think, New York City, I think about what it means to be, you know, a Chinese American living in New York, and then additionally, understanding crime in a very, very interesting way. So I'm excited to break down the whole story and get into everything. But one of the things

that I saw in the research that I thought was interesting is the initiation ritual to join some of these Chinese gangs. I didn't realize that many of these gangs have elaborate initiations. So could you talk about the initiation ritual for you joining the Fuk Ching? when you were a teenager and then some of the other triad initiation rituals and how they differ? Yes, sure, Mark. I got the front row seat to the gangs and the police department. With the initiation process, I didn't get initiated until, I believe it was probably around 89 or 1990, if I remember correctly. I joined a gang in 1986.

I was hanging around with them as an associate. it. And then one day I got called me and a guy named Carrahead and there was one other guy. His name is, we'll just call him the other guy. Sure. Because I don't keep in touch with him anymore. So it was the three of us. We reported to our DiLow's apartment. I didn't know what we were going there for.

And the Dylo is the leader? Well, he's my DiLoh's DiLoh's DiLos. So my dialogue would be called a daima. He's the guy who recruited me. So he's a rank above me. So above him is the die low. But anyone who's a rank above you, you refer to them as a die low. So I'm not going to call a daimah, a daimah.

That's the term that we don't. You can't say. Yeah. So we just call him Dai lo out of respect. Got it. Dialo means big brother in Chinese. So he called me in and he told me that we're getting initiated. So the process, like, a ceremony was like he had the chicken, the white wine, the general

Kwan. We did the incense, you know, we gave the incense to General Kwan, pour the white wine on the floor, picked our middle finger, the middle, take the blood out of our middle finger, drop it into the wine, pour it. And the reason for the middle finger is because in Chinese, the middle finger is called Zhongzik. Zhong meaning, you can say loyal, Zhong'sum, like loyal. Zhong can have other different meanings in Chinese, but it's based upon loyalty.

And, you know, he would recite some of, um, His recital was more like, you know, being loyal to the gang. You know, you don't rat on, you know, your fellow gangmates. You know, respect is a big thing. So he went through all that. And to me, it was like an honor for him to accept me and trust me. Because there's plenty of people in our crew. And it was only a select field that was initiated to be,

in the inner circle. So that's how it went. The New York City Chinatown gang initiation isn't as elaborate as the triads. And the triads would be the gang structure that exists in Hong Kong.

Yes, there's a difference. The Tongs, the triads, and the gangs. So some people refer to Chinese gangs as like the Chinese mob or, you know, maybe other, I mean, we're not the mob, we're not the yakuza, we're not the cartel,

we're just a local street gang. The triads is more, it's based in Hong Kong, the 14K Sun Yon, and then there's some trias that's based in Taiwan, like the bamboo triad. And, you know, they're all over, they have their people all over the world, so more international base. but the local street gang in Chinatown is based on one or two streets and that's what we were but we had the control

of Chinatown so even the Triads don't have that kind of control they would have to go to the Tongs to get approval for whatever they're doing in New York City so that's how much power

the Chinatown gangs had interesting and this ritual you would and the tongues were like the liaison to the triads and the gangs. In New York?

In New York. Oh, really? Yeah, the Tongue Association. The Tongue Association. They would basically act as like a middleman. The middleman. And why did they have the disordinate power? Why did the tongs?

Why were they the ones that were the liaison? The Tongs consist of people, the residents of Chinatown, the elder, the local businessman, the respectable people, people who's been here longer. I see. So they kind of bridge like a cultural gap between like crime, but then also legitimate business. And they have the connections to the politicians. They're the ones who entertain, you know, the police department or any permits that they need or anything to do with the community.

So they can get stuff done? They can get stuff done. That makes sense. Because when you come to this country and you don't speak a word of English, who do you rely on? You're going to rely on your local Tong association. They're going to get, it's like a one-stop shop. They'll get everything done for you, everything and anything.

I see. Whether you need a place to rent, whether you need a job, settle a dispute, a loan. It acts as it's almost like its own local government for Chinese speaking people in a city. Exactly. So it's like you getting drawn to China. Yeah, I'd be with Americans.

You're going to have your own local group. Maybe you have your own social club or maybe a club or whatever you want to call it. That's interesting. All righty, don't skip forward, guys, because I am on the road. World's Fastest Ad Read coming at you. I'm going to be at Portland, Oregon, Fort Worth, Texas, Austin, Texas, Stanford, Philly, Levitttown, Chandler, Arizona, San Diego. I'm also going to be adding Toronto, Montreal, as well as Washington. in D.C. and a bunch of other dates. Dates are in the description also in probably the comments of

of this episode. Go see me on the road. Come hang out. I'll be hanging out with everyone after the show. Come shake my hand. Call me an idiot. Whatever you want to do, I will be there. Additionally, I will be doing my one hour of stand-up comedy. I'm very proud of this hour. I'm really excited to share with you guys, and it would mean the world if everyone could come on out. I'll see you guys there. Let's get back to the show. So when you do the initiation ritual and they take the blood from your middle finger and they mix it in with this wine and there's like this ritualized ceremony. At the time, were you thinking like, oh, this is a little crazy? Or were you thinking like, oh, this is just how it goes and this is excited? No, I was thinking this is normal, like how it goes

because you see in the movies and you hear it from other people. Right. So by the time you're initiated, what was the main scheme that the Fuk Ching was sort of organizing and running in Chinatown. Was it mostly gambling houses? At that time, the Fuk Ching was considered the new kids on the block. Nobody really knew of the Fuk Ching. Nobody even heard of them. So basically, we wanted to make a name for ourselves

because you had the ghost shadows, the flying dragons, and the Dung-on. They were making headlines throughout the 70s, and 80s. And by the mid-80s, that's when the Fuk Ching came along. So from 85 going forward, we were the ones making headlines,

but the reporters didn't know about the Fuk Ching. So a lot of times, they pegged it on the Flying Dragons, you know, or some other gangs, or they just didn't put anything in the papers saying that it was gangulated. Oh, and it was just a one-off event.

It was a random thing. Yes. And how did it, did it frustrate the gang that you guys weren't getting credit? Or did you, did the streets know? The streets knew. Right. And that's all that matters. Police knew later on.

Mm-hmm. But the reporters at the time didn't know. I see. For example, there was a jewelry store robbery. there was a retired cop who was working with the jewel hired by the drill and there was a robbery and it was all over the news in August of 94 that incident was the Fructing but the news said it was the flying dragons there was a shooting at the Golden Cube billiards that was the Fuk Ching back in the 80s

newspaper never mentioned that Instead of random shooting happened Yes Then you had the 3 BTK Who got shot in the parking lot In Manhattan At a bar They arrested three Fuk Ching member

The newspaper never claimed they were Fuk Ching But the streets knew Who was arrested Interesting Then you had a non-Asian that was shot and killed in a pool hall on Nostrin Avenue and Avenue H. They never mentioned it was the Fuk Ting. So all these articles again, there was another white kid who got killed right off King's Highway. They never mentioned it was the Fuk Ting.

Now it's... So there's a lot of cases that the streets knew, the gangs knew, the Chinatown gang is new. So that's how the Dai Loh got his respect is because of the soldiers out there that he had doing this type of, you know, work that he's not going to stop him because he's getting the name out there. Right, and fear is kind of growing amongst the other gangs. Yes, because they were fighting for East Broadway with the Dong'an.

The Dong'an controlled East Broadway, and East Broadway was, was a lot of money involved on East Broadway because there's a lot of gambling houses over there. Now, it seems like many of the Chinese gangs in Chinatown never really worked in drugs that frequently. And there was violence, but it typically seems like it was related to gambling houses

and sort of like covert gambling operations. Is that fair to say for the Fuk Ching as well? Was it typically gambling houses or was there other criminal element going along with it like drugs and things like that. The billion-dollar drug bus was in Chinatown, New York City. Really? It was one of the biggest drug busts in history.

And which game was this? Well, the Flying Dragons had a hold of some of them, some of the herring that was coming in. Okay. They were big into the herring trade. They were big into the herring trade. Machine Gunjani, you know, Onion Head, also known as Onionhead,

the leader of Flying Dragons. And they were dealing with China White. Oh, interesting. Yeah, the Flying Dragons was supplying the heaven to Boy George. Oh, that's right. I think I remember Jimmy Sui mentioning something about this. I didn't realize it was that broad, though. A billion dollars?

Check it out. When the Italians got caught by the feds for dealing with heaven, that's left a vacuum. And that's when the Chinese moved in. A billion dollars, check it out. A billion dollars is wild. And how long does that run for? Is that all through the 80s and 90s?

Through the 80s, yes, into the 90s. Correct. Wow. And some of the gangs had their hands on it. Had their hands on it. The ghost shadows didn't really do much with heroin. The Fulting had some, but not our crew didn't deal with that. Because the fuk ching was separated into different factions, different cliques, whatever you want to call it, different sets.

You know, you get the lead at the top, but then you have different sets. I see. And was there beef within the sets of the fukcheng? No, no. It's like under one family. So it all functioned sort of harmoniously. Yes. I see. But now your initiation and involvement into the gang, correct me if I'm wrong, came from kind of protection. Like growing up in Chinatown, there was like, you know, you were involved in like some fights and bullying and things like that and that the gang sort of offered you a little bit of a cover and a community to kind of escape from that. It was an escape for me.

It was a, I felt like I felt like I was protected. Mm-hmm. You know. And protected from what exactly? Was it other gang members? No, from the bullies. Right. From the jocks.

Really? Really. They were like relentless. when it comes to bullying. And how would that manifest for you when you were a teenager? I guess they bullied me. I guess, how do I say it? They bullied me, but they,

the best way to say it is they bullied me, but they made me. They created me. They created who I am. And was it bullying for anything specific? Was it, you know, just, where you were at the time, was it because of school? Was it sports related?

Like, what was the impetus for this? It was it just cruelty for no reason? You're going to have to like dive into the mindset of a bully. Yeah. Okay, I was like the only Asian kid in my class. Mm-hmm. And throughout the years, you know, especially during those days from the 70s, 80s, and we weren't too many Chinese.

Went too many Chinese around. And my parents moved me to Brooklyn, you know, for, to get away. from the gangs, but then now I wind up in Brooklyn and I get bullied. And that pushes you farther in? Yeah, they, I mean, it's in my book. It's not easy to talk about, like being bullied. Yeah, of course. You know, it's easier to write about it than to talk about it.

Yeah. You know, like, even as a kid, you know, like in the third grade, fourth grade, they'll call me a communist. I didn't even know what a communist was, you know, back in those days. They're insulting in a way that you're like, I don't even understand what this means. Yeah, how do these kids know what the communists is? Yeah. And they're so young.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's terrible. To get bullied for something and you have to go home and ask your parents, you're like, what does this mean? What does it mean to be this? Yeah. Yeah, that's frustrating. I mean, unless you walk in my shoes, you wouldn't understand.

Mm-hmm. Right? And then once you're initiated, now you're involved in the gang. Did the bullying stop? Oh, yeah, they bullied me until they feared me, you know? They stopped like right away. It was like a light switch. I'll tell you that right now.

Yeah. Because once I joined a gang, I really, I didn't go to school that much. Stop going to school. You know, it was done that summer. When I came back, I was different. Right. I mean, they can tell. They can tell.

Yeah. And they can sense it. And they're looking for, they're looking for weakness. They're looking for people they can exploit. Yeah. And then you come back and you. And you don't have the weakness anymore. And they go, all right, we're not going to.

My first day back after summer. Yeah, somebody tested me. And I had to fight. The old Mike wasn't going to do that. But then that's the new me. Because I knew that, okay, I'll lose the fight. But at the end, we're going to get you. We'll kill you.

I have friends who's going to kill you. Right. And they will. Yeah. Because back then it's so easy to kill somebody and get away with it. There's no cameras, no nothing. Yeah, New York was a different place in the, different place.

Different place. Different place because look, look how many, they don't care about the Chinese. They don't care about the blacks. Let them kill each other. Right. Look at all the unsolved cases in Chinatown. Unsolved homicide. There's about 38 of them during that hour, just in that small two block radius.

And then you have the homicide that's outside of China town. So how many cases that's unsolved? Hundreds. Yeah. That no one's ever looking into. Chinese gangs. Wow. Because they just say, hey, as long as this isn't disrupting, you know, our white suburb or our white neighborhood, it doesn't matter.

Exactly. Even as a detective, we have a case in the 6th-6th percent. Unsolved, you know, this Chinese person, this lady got a poison. She got poison Yeah And to this day It's still unsolved Wow

I mean that is crazy And are there any efforts Like even when you were in the NYPD Like looking into it I assisted with the case But it's all It all depends on the lead detective If you have an incompetent detective

Or someone who don't care Someone who's not Ambitious somebody who Doesn't do the right thing The case goes nowhere makes a lot of sense there's leads on that case even to this day

just like the reason why I'm bringing this up is because last week somebody mentioned it I was in the store and the lady said I recognize you you were that cop that came in

there was like over 10 years ago something like that you're the cop that came in who investigated this case I go yeah I was you know and then she goes

yeah that lady was dealing with illegal counterfeit cigarettes. And then something happened to her? She must have, my speculation is she probably, some people probably owe her a lot of money and they just didn't want to pay

so the easiest way is just to put poison in the food. She was eating lunch and she just dropped that in front of everybody. I mean, that is wild. That's a type of assassination that I never even consider, right? Like when you think about like, you know, gang violence,

you typically think of like, you know, guns and knives. You don't think about poison. Yeah. That's crazy. And so in the time that you were involved in the Fuk Ching, what was your main role and how did you sort of ascend the ranks to become, you know, a big brother, so to speak? I was never a dialogue.

I was never a daima. I was always a soldier. I never aspired to be anything above that. I just wanted the protection. So I could have went a lot further. This wasn't me. Mm. You know.

So even when, even when you were involved, did you have, you never had like the desire necessarily to be sort of working in criminal operations. You just wanted the protection and sort of the brotherhood. Yes. But I wanted to make money. So basically, you know, I was doing things to make money. Mm-hmm. Use, you know, being under the umbrella of that gang, under the protection of the gang name,

I was able to open my own gambling house. I was able to open my own pool hall with no body coming in to extort for me. I opened a store, a collectible store in Chinatown on Avenue U and also in Sunset Park. Nobody would extort for me. And when it comes to gambling houses specifically, what is the most lucrative game? Like if you're going to have like... It depends what year, whatever. Like if you talk about the 70s, it's Pai Gau tiles, mahjong.

And then you go into the 80s, you're talking about a lot of sports betting. The Chinese people got into sports betting by that time in the 80s. They still continue with their mahjong games. then it transitioned into like the Taiwanese mahjong games instead of the Cantonese. So that was, that was, so that was popular. And then eventually transition into, um, back rat. Now it's back rat. No, like during the 90s and up until like 2000 back rat.

And then now it's a lot of machines. So if you, a lot of machines, almost all machines. Everything is done by machine, even Bacrat. And then you got the Chinese have their own slot machine, own type of slot machine that they put in the basement or in the back room. Sort of like the old fashioned Joker poker machine, the slot machines that the Italian had.

The Chinese have that now. You can have a whole room of them, of those slot machines. Is Baccarat originally? originally a Chinese gang. Back Latin originated in China. I mean, you know where in Italy, right? Mm-hmm. That's interesting.

And every time I go to a casino, I guess sometimes we'll do comedy shows at casinos and we'll see the high roller rooms. And it's a ton of Chinese men playing Baccarat. I'm always curious why different games collect within different cultures. Like Majong makes sense because it is, you know, traditionally a Chinese gang.

But something like Baccarat, did it just become a part of the community because it got introduced and gambling? Hambling houses. I'm curious if you have a, like, I wonder if you saw the evolution into the different gambling games.

You want to know why? Because I'm born in America. So I'm considered ABC, American-born Chinese. But I hang out with the people who come from mainland China and from Hong Kong. Their mind works differently.

They're looking for the best odds. When they walk in the casino, someone like me and you, It's more for entertainment. They're looking to make money. Ah. They're looking for the best odds. And the criminal element

is looking for weakness, for any way they can scam the casino. That's what they're looking for. Whether it is counterfeiting the chips or the coins in the slot machine back in those days or so many different ways, you know, to place a bet.

But after, you know, the dealer shows the card afterwards and then or maybe work along with the dealer. There's so many different ways to cheat, mark the cards. Interesting. You know, or bend it. So they're looking to make money. So if you're running a gambling house and someone comes in and you see them kind of manipulating the cards or you see them cheating a little bit, they're taking money away from you. So what do you do if you see someone that's You know, not playing fair?

Do you go... You mean in the gambling house? Yeah. Like if you're... In a casino. In the gambling house? In the gambling house? They are in the gambling house.

What they do is there's a lot of gambling houses that cheat the customers. So it's rare that the customer would cheat the gambling house. Right. All right. If you heard from Big Head's interview, they have magnetic. Dice. Okay. Some places hire professional dealers, like magicians.

I'm telling you, you can't even tell they're dealing, they could deal any cards they want. At any time. At any time. And these people are in high demand back in those days when the gambling house was making so much money. Wow. Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense, especially because with the casino, you think, like, I'm sure the casinos do this also. Like, I'm, I don't know, I'm kind of skeptical where I just assume, you know, the casinos are trying to make money.

So there's a ways that they make sure that they're making money. Obviously, the odds are in their favor. When it comes to, like, a gambling house, it's not necessarily as regulated. I could see them being like, all right, let's make sure if someone's getting too ahead, we bring them down. Yeah, I wouldn't worry about the casino, the major casinos cheating. It's regulated by the, you know, gaming commission. Right. But something like a gambling house, you can hire anyone you want.

But if you go to another country, you're regulated. Right? Some of these Southeast Asian countries. Mm-hmm. If it's not, if it's a privately owned casino, I wouldn't go there. Right. Oh, that's interesting. But did you ever have people try to cheat in your gambling house that you opened?

No. Nobody cheated in my gambling place. Because it'd be too risky. Yeah. It would be risky. Yeah. They'll be taking a chance. Yeah.

And then... They would definitely face some repercussions. Right. There'd be some type of penalty or something, I imagine. Yeah. And how do you protect the gambling house? Because, you know, even talking to Jimmy,

that was always the biggest issue, is that another gang would come in and try to rob the gambling house. That's another misconception, like, that people have about protecting the gambling house. How the gangs protect the gambling house. You're not going to get a gang member. Occasionally, the gang members hang out there.

You know, of course. Like my dialogue would say, oh, you know, we're having a high sticks game tonight, you know, go with your guys and just hang out there in a high-vice condo, right? So we go there and we just hang out there. Yeah, so we're protecting the place. But we're not there 24-7. The place is open 24-7, right? We're not going to be at a gambling house 24-7, like 7-11. You're not going to get a gangster there with a gun.

Yeah, 4 a.m. Yeah, it's not going to happen. happen, right? It's by name, by name. It's unwritten rule in Chinatown, right? For example, you have Flying Dragons. They have Power Street, Doyle Street. You have Ghost Shadows, right? They have Ma Street, Bay R. Street. If they, who's going to go rob the gambling house when they, like, the Flying Dragon is not going to go into that territory rob the gambling house? Because they know, hey, they know. It's just like a, like a, like a, like a, like a bar in Bay Ridge. It's protected by the Gambino crime family, let's say. Are you going to have a Gambino captain there standing there

with his arm crossed and with a gun in his jacket to protect the place? No, nobody's going to go mess with that place because they know it's protected. Because you might get the money tonight, but you don't know what's going to happen to you in two weeks. Yeah. So who's going to rob the ganglack? What happened was when Ghost Shadows wanted to take over. the territory from the black eagles, right? And the white eagles, yeah, they went and robbed all the gambling houses in Chinatown, make a statement. But that was a very intentional push to, like, try to take over territory and make a name. Yeah.

That's not necessarily commonplace. Yeah, but generally, nobody's going to go rob a gambling house from the opposing rival gang until the BTK came and the unwritten rules, street rules that the Chinese had was out window. They were hungry. They didn't care. The BTK were the ones going in. The Vietnamese gang. Right. And that's another story. That's a whole other story. And if there's a robbery in a gambling house, it's most likely an inside job within the gang, probably from an associate. Because we had one. Like I said, in that high-rise condo, eventually that place got robbed. So my die low, suspected it was one of us in our crew.

Okay. But he couldn't prove it, but he suspected that it was this guy. It isn't my book. He suspected that it was this kid who did it. Because he trusted me. He trusted Cambodian Peter, his daima. And the other guys, he knew who to trust.

This kid was an associate. And one thing about the Chinese, they don't forget. They don't forget. Because after all those years, you figure, more than 20 years. And I was already a cop in the street.

I was in my police scooter. And I happened to bump into my dailo, my di-lose-dai-low in the street. I haven't seen them all those years. bump into him. The first word out of his mouth when he walked up to my, my police school was, have you seen the guy?

I really knew who he was referring to, you know. Wow. And how did you see him? Read the book. Read the book. Wow. I mean, yeah, that, that feeling of never forgetting. It never goes away.

One thing about the Chinese. I mean, remember, I'm born here in the U.S. So I'm considered an ABC, American-born Chinese, so I don't have that mentality like the Chinese, but I grew up around them, so I understand how they think. They're very patient when it comes to revenge. Because in the 70s, as a child,

my uncle used to take me to watch a short brother movies, right? And you see those kung fu movies back in those days in the 70s, it was all about revenge. Right? You just pick any movie. Any kung fu movie is about revenge, right? Right. You kill my master. I'm going to train in kung fu.

I'll kill your master. I don't care if I train 10, 20 years. I'm going to come back and get you. Oh, that's really interesting. That's rooted in a real cultural, you know, reality of the Chinese patience. specifically in mainland China, of, you know, we'll wait as long as we need to. Yeah. They could wait for generations.

Wow. I mean, it's just, that's, you know, I learned these things by being around them. Right. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I want you to know that there are still good people in the world. And there are still people out there fighting for you. So here's a story. There's a guy riding a water slide, right?

He's at this amazing water park. He's about to go down the slide. all of a sudden as he's going down, flies into the air, lands on his back, and has permanent life-changing injuries. He's still dealing with him four or five years later and he's having a hard time getting paid. You know what I mean? He gets injured at this massive, massive water park owned by Disney of all people and can't even get a cent out of their attorneys. So that's why he called Morgan and Morgan. He called Morgan and Morgan and quickly they represented him in his lawsuit against Disney for damages,

citing what they called lax safety measures. The lawsuit alleges that Disney either failed to warn him properly or failed to make the ride safe, and they argue that the design itself created a dangerous condition. And thankfully for this guy, because he called Morgan and Morgan, he will get justice in his case, just like the 500,000 other clients that got the compensation that they deserved over Morgan and Morgan's 35-year career. Morgan-Morgan-Morgan is America's largest injury law firm with over $25 billion. recovered. I'm telling you, hiring the wrong law firm can be disastrous, and hiring the right

one could substantially increase your settlement. With Morgan and Morgan, it's so easy to get started, and their fee is free unless they win your case. So, just visit forthepeople.com slash gagnon, Gagnan, Gagnan, Gagnan, Gagnan, Gagnan, Gagnan, Gagnan, Gagnan, Gagnan, Gagnan, Gaud, Gn, that's pound 529. This is a paid advertisement. Now let's get back to the show. Yeah, I'm curious if there's other observations that you found, like being an American yourself, but growing up around many, you know, Chinese immigrants, what do you find is the, you know, the biggest differences amongst, you know, yourself and then, you know, mainland Chinese people like immigrate?

It's a big difference. Different set of values, morals, and boundaries, you know. Growing up in U.S., we have... different sets of these things, but they, they don't have, they don't have that, you know,

it's like, you hear stories like how some people from other countries, the gangs, how they operate over there, they'll kill your whole family, right? I mean,

not just China, I'm saying, like, other countries as well in South America, whatever, you know, over here, it's different. We have certain boundaries, right?

You get like, let's say a black kid from the projects, a gang member, he does something wrong. Are they going to kill his whole family? They all live there. Yeah. Right?

So it's different. It's different. The tri-ass do things different. Their mindset is different. They're all about making money, you know. But if you cross them, then they'll look to get revenge. If they can't get you here,

they'll get your family in China. It's different. Oh, really? That would happen that they would just say, hey, we're not going to get you in the United States, the legal system, whatever, but we know where your uncle is in Beijing or Hong Kong and we'll find them. Yeah. Just like one of the gang members in the Dong'an gang, his family was in China. The kid was over here as an illegal. And he faked his own kidnapper.

so he can extort, get the money from his father, from his parents. So, like, how low can you go? Like, I mean, that seems, that seems crazy. With someone who's born in the US, you really got to stoop really low to do something like. Right. Like, it's something that you wouldn't even think of, you know. Like, there's some things that they do in China

that an American-born Chinese would not even, wouldn't even cross their mind, let's put that way. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, did they ever treat you differently? Like, did they value your insight as an American? Or did they speak to you in a different way because you weren't from? Of course. What was that relationship like?

They see me as ABC. They see me as an ABC, but I was accepted because I spoke Cantonese and I was able to blend in. Hmm. You know. And so that was enough to be like, all right, you're good enough. Yeah. Because they were not

except anyone in the inner circle if you didn't speak, Cantonese. You wouldn't be trusted. Right. You will not be trusted. That's why it's so difficult to get any outsiders

into the gang during that Ella. Mm-hmm. If you only spoke English, you're going to be an offshoot. You're going to be part of the ABC Flying Dragons or something, you know? Right. But there were some,

flying dragons that were like Italian at some point later on. Is that, is that correct? I think Jimmy had mentioned maybe there was like a couple. Yeah, but they're not, they're not in the inner circle. They're just like hanging around the flying dragons. You had a black kid in the gold shadows and, you know, they're not. You can never be fully, you know, like, I try. I tried to get the black guy, my friend Diamond, involved with our activities.

if you read my book you know me and diamond were very close you know he's a black guy from Guyana Guyanese and um I try to get him in to do more to get more involved with the gang

and it was tough tough to get him to be accepted and my dialogue wouldn't want nothing to do with it interesting you know

and did you talk to your die low to say like no he's good he can be productive i spoke to my daima i said you could i trust him with my life he knew and even that but i just couldn't get up to the next level hmm yeah so did did diamond ever get involved only to the dealings with me you know only to the dealings with me so i between me and him you know we dealt in bootleg videos martial art videos Kung Fu movies, different guns, marijuana, credit card fraud, and things like that. Nothing, no hard drugs, you know. He used to do a lot of robberies and he was wanted in many different states.

So eventually he got deported for some shootings that he did. He was wonderful, a lot of shootings as well. I'm always curious how the Chinese gangs interfaced with other gangs in New York, like the Italian gangs, the black gangs. What was the relationship? Did they ever deal together? Did they work together on certain, you know, the schemes, or was it pretty separate? I can only speak on my experience.

We had a very good relationship with the blacks, with the American blacks, the, uh, the Guyanese blacks, Jamaican blacks, because my, my store was right in the heart of Flatbush at the junction, Flatbush and Austrin. Mm. It was a predominantly a black neighborhood. And I had a 6,000 square foot pool hall with 19 pool tables and a table tennis table. And across the street, I had a collectible store where we stash all illegal

stuff like the guns and marijuana. And when you say a collectible store, what kind of collectibles? Everything from baseball caps, t-shirts, baseball cards, comic books. Got it. So any type of memorabilia? Yeah, memorabilia. What was the coolest piece of memorabilia that you had? The what? The coolest piece of memorabilia.

Like, was there an item that you had in the store that you really... You name it? It went through my hands. Really? I'm telling you, it's... To me, it wasn't about collecting. By that time, once I became a dealer and started selling it, it was all about the transaction. I mean, you name it.

Besides Amazing Spider-Man number one. I mean, I had X-Men number one, the Hulk number one in really very fine condition. I'll go on and on. I had whatever rookie cards, you can name it, like, just so many, like George Brett rookie card, Reggie Jackson, Tom Seaver. What was the highest ticket item?

Do you remember the transaction where it was the biggest? Willie May's rookie card, Bowman. How much? At that time, it was like maybe $5,000. I don't know how much it costs now. A Bowman, 1951, Willie May's rookie card. How much is that now? I mean, you know, back then, back then, there wasn't grading.

I mean, you don't send a card in to get graded. Now, you send a car. Yeah, it's a whole process and everything. But everything was just, it just came across my hands because a lot of people came in and sold their stuff to me. What was, what is that card worth now? I see a listing for 70,000. 70,000.

41,000, 29,000. And even 5,000 in that time is probably closer to, you know, 20,000 today or something like that, maybe 15,000. Yeah. I had the incredible. Hope number one in like near-min condition. That was like, at that time, I remember being able to pick up that copy for $700. Yeah.

Wow. And did you enjoy that part of the business? I like the wheeling and dealing part. Yeah. I mean. That's the thing. It doesn't seem like you like the game, like whether it's illegal or legitimate. It seems like you like the transaction and the deal.

Yeah. Exactly. There was one time this guy came in. in my store. Just open the store, not even a month. Came in my store with a bag full of cards. There was about maybe

two or two and a half decks of, like playing cards, you know, wrapped in rubber band. He goes, do you buy cards? I go, yeah, sure, I buy cards, of course. Let me see what you got. I'm looking through the cards. You got Nolan Wein's rookie card,

Tom Seaver, George Brett, Reggie Jackson. And it's like, near-min condition like straight out of a pack all centered sharp corners I'm like

wow it's got to be over 20,000 retail over 20,000 right I'm like how much you want for it says something like

can I get six or you know something like that right you draw out a number right so I'm saying like 6,000, like, you know. So I'm thinking,

I think he mentioned something like seven. Okay. If I remember correctly, he mentioned like, can I guess seven? So I'm thinking 7,000. So I'm thinking even 7,000? It's a great deal. Yeah, I'll take, you know,

I'm like, where am I going to get the money? Like, okay, let me work on getting the money. I'm like, so I said, you know what? Like, how about six? Six. And then he goes to me, I can't get 70. All right. So this guy was, you could tell he was like a crack head.

Oh, wow. Because during that time, you know, crack was in. Yeah. I could tell. Yeah, I thought he really wanted like $7,000 or something. So I said, so when he said six, when I offer him six, right, then he goes, I can't get 70. Then I knew he was, the numbers he were thinking. about. So I said, yeah. Best I could do is give you 60. So I take it. So I gave him $60, something like that.

And then he was happy. He walked out. What? Then I went home. I laid out all the cards. I had the cards sold already. Like I had people who want those cards lined up. Yeah, yeah. You won't believe what I just got. Yeah, right off the bat. Those cards are sold. Sold for like a little under 20,000, like right off the bat. Wow. That's interesting that people are coming to this collectible store, dealing with you, thinking that, uh, you know, all, all you do is collectibles not knowing that at the time, you're also, you know, intently involved with, with a Chinese gang. They're dealing with a Chinese gangster. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. They didn't know. Interesting. I'm always curious with like the, you know, the billiards halls or like the gambling houses.

Did just like, you know, regular, you know, like white Americans ever walk in there and be like, hey, can I gamble? Or did it have to be people that spoke Cantonese or that? You're not Chinese. You're not going in. Full stop. That's it. No, that's it.

Full stop. That's it. If I showed up and I was like, hey, I would like to play, it would just be like, hey, it's a private event. Nobody's going to believe you. You don't know how to play Paigau. In those days, in the 80s, you know how to play, you're not going to find a non-Asian who knows how to play Paigau.

So the, the games themselves kept people out. Yeah. It's not like. Blackjack, or back rat. Interesting. And then as like the back rat comes in or like the, you know, the electric games, how is it? Even electric games is in Chinese. All the buttons are in Chinese.

Oh, that's interesting. It's similar to like, you know, like the slot machines, but even I don't know how to play those games now. It's in Chinese. Oh, right. And you always speak Cantonese and the, and I don't know how to read and write Chinese. Right. I went to Chinese school when I was.

was young, but only like the basic characters, maybe I can identify a couple of characters, but that's about it. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Oh, wow. And then as far as the billiards hall, anyone could go in there? Or was that even still a little restrictive? No, everyone can go in.

It's, yeah, it's a commercial establishment. Right. What was the most lucrative business? Um, I would say, it's all about, it's all about the same. I would say the gambling places, of course, young, illegal business is the most lucrative. I'll tell you that. But the gambling, the pool hall at the junction, I was, let's talk about gross. Okay.

So I was grossing anywhere from like 18 to 22, $23,000 a month. But then I was paying $6,000 in rent and because it's $6,000 square foot area. Yeah, it's a big. Yeah. So I was paying $6,000 in rent and then you subtract the labor. and people are hired to work there. Yeah, so it cost me, how much it costs me to open that pool up?

Maybe about 170 around there. Yeah, but then the pool tables are paid off and so I was just collecting money. Across the street, the collectibles, I was averaging around 20 grand gross and that's just one side of the store, which is the cards and the, you know, the collectibles and T-shirts and one.

not. Yeah. So the rent over there at that time was, for me, it was a thousand. One thousand because the other, my partner had the, uh, the comic site. So he was paying a thousand. So it was 2,000 for like 1,800 square foot store. And then I rented out the, a booth to, uh, to a diamond for 800, selling the bootleg video.

So I was only paying 200 rent. And I was taking in about 18, you know, about 20,000 because we had like video games also that generate money. So it was pretty lucrative, you know. Oh, wow. And so were you using those legitimate businesses to wash the money from the illegal business? I think I was making more with the legitimate business besides the gambling, you know, besides the gambling house. because, yeah, I was also dealing with the guns. I was getting the guns from the American blacks and getting the marijuana from the Jamaicans.

And then counterfeit money, you know, I had access to that. This Israeli guy, I was able to get counterfeit money from him and also my dialogue. My diLos, diLo, was able to get really good quality counterfeit money. I was into different things, you know, here and there throughout the years. Did the counterfeit money come from mainland China? I don't know where it came from, but if I remember correctly, I don't know. I mean, if I remember correctly, maybe North Korea, I don't know. And it went to China and China trickle over here.

I spoke to an FBI investigator who worked on a case dealing with counterfeit notes that came from North Korea and that they had a perfect printing press. Yeah, they had the dreds and everything. It was perfect. During that time, it was in the early 90s. Yeah, they had the blue and red dreds. I can't even tell. And like there was at one point, I forget what is the name of the note? It was like the, they called it like the ultra note.

It was like a perfect one for one replica. Yeah, it was going for 50 cents on a dollar. Right. That one. Yeah. And it was so good that they sent it to the internal FBI team. And they could. They didn't know which one was the fraudulent one.

Yeah. And even their internal investigators were like, we can't tell. And the pen, the counterfeit pen, it wasn't popular back then. The counterfeit cigarettes was always an interesting one, that they would have like these marlbrose that would be made in China. And when they came over, it was interesting because this guy, Bob Hamer, he told me that a lot of Chinese Americans preferred the counterfeit because they grew up smoking the counterfeit marbrose. And that if you gave them a real marbo, they'd be like, nah, I don't like the taste. And that they actually had like an affinity for the counterfeit.

It was just so fascinating to me. And it just shows like how many counterfeit cigarettes were coming into these communities. Remember those 99 cents stores back in the days? So I knew somebody who had a shipment of AA batteries shipped from China. And then he had the labels over here. to wrap it around the Chinese batteries as a doer cell. So these 99-scent stores are selling do-sce cell batteries.

Five, six bucks. Yeah, and people were eating it up. Oh, wow. For a 20-foot container, each container, he was making like $400,000 clean. That's crazy. See, these are the kinds of, because I think so many people, they think about crime,

they think about, you know, like extortion and gambling and drugs, But it's those little sort of things like, you know, the counterfeit batteries, counterfeit cigarettes that can be so lucrative and the penalties for them aren't as great. Like if you're selling counterfeit batteries, like you're not going to go to prison as if you're selling, you know, heroin. But you can still, you can sometimes make as much money doing, you know, like counterfeit stamps. There was another one that he had told me like, yeah, you can buy sheets of stamps for, you know, 20 cents of what they would cost per sheet. extortion is for the soldiers, for the street kids. Right.

Yeah. I mean, the protection money is, the gambling houses is more for like the higher level, you know, just like with kids. He was collecting $10,000 a week from each gambling house that he,

uh, protected. And it was like 11. So he was pulling in $110,000. But then we told about restaurants is for, for the, For the kids, for the 14, 15-year-old street soldiers, you know, they go there, they'll eat for free, they'll sign the gang name and the dialogue will pick it up.

It's not like they're beating the restaurant for the money. The dialogue actually picks up the tab, you know. They're not going to lose face. They don't want to lose face. They're going to pick up the tab. Right. You know, it's to keep the economy going. There's so much drug money back then, circulating within Chinatown.

So everybody was flush with money. So at the height of your operation, you're making money from the billiard hall, you're making money from the gambling house, from the collectibles, and then some of the illegal activities. What do you think you were making per month everything all added in at the height? You know what? I never calculate how much I made, but how much money. But I was always carrying money, and it just goes.

The money just goes. Where it goes? It just goes. Believe me, it goes. Like, people wonder, like, how... Until I became a cop, then it's like, then I realized, after all those years, you know, you basically, what? It's paycheck to paycheck, you know, because a lot of guys and girls are living paycheck to paycheck.

And then eventually, you know, I'm like, okay, so this is the life, you know. but it's a piece of mind. You get a peace of mind and that's priceless. Yeah. Because no matter how much money you make back then, I don't care how many millions you make. I didn't make millions, but, you know, it's going to go. It could, yeah, just in a...

Like that. And most of them spend it on gambling because in the Chinese community, gambling is a big thing. Because think about it. You could pick up. the phone and place a bet for $100,000 on the game. Or you can go to a gambling house with a suitcase for the money, right?

And lose it in the night. My sister Ping, she had relatives. I'm not going to mention who, but goes to the gambling house and drop over $100,000 a night and come back the next day to pay off whatever he, the marker, and then he'll gamble again. Wow. It's like unlimited money, but when you're making money. Yeah, who cares? Yeah.

Gambling is a big thing in the Asian community. Like, how can you, even if you have a drug habit or whatever, you can't snort $100,000 a night. That's a great point. You know? Yeah. Yeah, really any other habit, you know what I mean? Any other addiction.

There's a limit. There's a bodily limit, both gambling. You do a million. And it just, you could do as much as you want. That's the worst addiction, gambling. Right. Because there's no limit to it. They say only 2% succeed in, you know, quitting gambling.

Hmm. But 40% can succeed in quitting all the substance abuse. Wow. That is fascinating. Was it stressful for you in that time? Because you have these legitimate businesses that are making great money and that you could just live off that and everything's great, but then you also have the criminal element.

And was that starting to scare you towards the later years? It's stressful because I own a car service that ran 24 hours, seven days a week, and the pool didn't close until like 4 or 5 a.m. in the morning until last customer leave, sometimes, you know, on the weekends like that. Weekdays, yeah, so it's always, yeah, it's stressful, you know, especially when, you know, people try to test us, then there's shootings in there. I mean, if you come into the pool hall,

if you notice, there's bullet holes all over. That's only if you pay attention to these things. And where would the test come from? Was it from rival gangs? Or was it just from patrons that wanted to see if they could, you know, see what they can get away with? See what they can get away with. And how do you deal with someone that's trying to test the pool hall?

It's in my book. It's in my book. Diamond had a lot. lot to do with it too. Yeah. Because, uh, like I said,

it was, if you go back into that era, it was pretty wild. Especially the kids coming from the, the vanderia, you know, in the high crime area. Okay.

The private housing development. Mm-hmm. So they, they came over. Hmm. Yeah. So then what ultimately... And the drug dealers came over.

But they tried to deal drugs. They tried to deal cocaine out of my place. I mean, you can't have that. No. Because now you're bringing all this attention. You're bringing police. You're bringing heat. Yeah.

And so you've got to get these guys out of there. Yeah. Got to get them out. Interesting. And Diamond, I'm sure, was helpful in that regard. Yes. I named the pool all after him. Diamond.

Diamond Billiards. Oh, wow. Do you still keep in touch with Diamond today? Of course. Of course. Yeah. But he's not able to come back to the U.S. No, he can't.

When was the last time you saw him? I go there a couple of times. I've been there a couple of times. When he gets in trouble. To Guyana. Yeah. He gets in trouble. I'm always there for him.

I mean, Diamond is diamond. That's awesome. I think he got arrested twice over there. I had to bail him out. Oh, really? you flew over there to bail him out. Yeah, I'd take care of him. He's my brother.

Oh, that's a real one. Yeah. Wow. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because you need to rebrand your crotch. That's right. You need a full rebrand under your dong, and you're going to do it with Blue Chew. Because Blue Chew, their tablets aren't just for better sex.

No. They are like, if Tony Robbins give a motivational speech rate to your weener, you know? I mean, you're going to feel amazing. Look, I just took one of Blue Chew's tablets today. And suddenly, I mean, look at me, I'm glowing. This table absolutely getting crushed underneath it, right? My penis is giving a press conference, okay? Feeling great, never been better.

So whether you're trying to make, you know, a memorable moment with your sweet love, or you're just trying to give, you know, a friend of yours or a girl you know, like some crazy group chat fodder, something for the girls to gossip about, Blue Chew is absolutely the chewable tablet delivery service. that you need to bring the thunder. And the best part is that we got a special deal for the listeners of this lovely program. Get your first month for free at bluechew.com. Just use the promo code Gagnon at checkout.

All you got to do is pay five bucks for shipping. That's like a cup of coffee. All right? Five bucks for shipping. You're going to get free Bluetooth straight to your door. So upgrade your legacy. Let your name ring out for eons. And let's get back to the show.

As you're making all the money, what was the, what were some of the things that you purchased? Did you buy anything lavish? Did you buy anything stupid that you look back on and you go, oh yeah, I probably didn't need to spend, you know, $100,000 on a watch. Was there anything like that? I'm not a materialistic guy.

Like me, I'm like a minimalist. So I don't want anything in excess, you know. So I use the money more for experiences. Like what? Use your imagination. I'm imagining. Did you go on trips? Like did you?

Yeah. Around the world. Yeah, around the world, yeah. Been all over. Yeah. Gambling. That's probably where most of my money went. But it was a phase that I went through.

Sure. Because when you have money, you gamble more. You know, like, you could be pushing out $10,000 a game. But when you have no money, you're not making that kind of money. You'd be betting black chips. And then eventually it goes to green chips and red chips. It's just all depends. how much you make.

What was the best night that you had gambling? What was your biggest win? Do you remember? I lose more than I win. That's how I was supposed to work. I'm the type of gambler who's afraid to win but not afraid to lose.

There are those type of gamblers. But my win probably like $65,000. I remember walking away with $65,000 at the back of that table. So my friend, he, I think he had like $500 and he turned it into $90,000, right? So Carverhead, he's on my channel. I'll let him tell the story on my channel one day, Chinatown gang stories on YouTube. And his friend needs to use the restroom, right?

So while waiting for his friend to come out from the restroom, he went back to the backyard table. He lost all that $90,000. No. Like that, just like that. That's how fast the game Backrat is. Wow. Yeah. Do you know the game?

Not really. I see people play, but I've never played. So for those who know how to play Backerat, I have a story where I went to Atlantic City. I didn't even sit down at the table. I dropped $5,000 on the table. And by time they counted out, I didn't even sit down yet put $5,000. on players. So the person, of course,

when we put $25 on the bank, bet against me, and I was looking at the cards. I sat down, look at the cards, it was two side, two side, right? The first one was a four. No, the first one was a five,

right? And then the second card was a four, right? So it's natural nine. So I won five thousand. I doubled up to 10,000. the person who crossed with me did the same thing,

but $25,000 against my $10,000 hand now. And again, I looked at the card, and the first one was a five, and the second one had a four. That's, I don't forget. Did you look at him when you won? It was a female. Oh, wow.

And I just took the money and I left. Oh, that's so funny. Yeah. Two hands. That's all you needed. Yeah, that's funny. Wow. I would have felt so stupid if I lost it.

Yeah, he's got, $25. Put your hat down and leave. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah, because in background, there is an interpersonal kind of element where there's people kind of working with you and against you. Yeah. I mean, the casino, you, the casino is paying you, you know, and why would you bet against me if I'm, you know, you know, I'm bent,

kind of money. It's just be spiteful, you know. Right. Does it ever get personal if you're in, like, a private baccaret room or like a I don't take it personal, but some people like be screaming, yelling and starting a fight. Oh, you're betting against me. They get door temper tantrum. But really? Me? I don't care. Wow. You do what you want. It doesn't affect me. But it's just, I find it entertaining. Yeah. I mean, it could have went the other way. Then I don't know. It's stupid, it's right.

Have you heard stories in gambling houses where someone makes too much money and the gambling house has to, you know, they have to scramble or there becomes like a problem? If someone really, you know, runs a table in background and they make, you know, two or three hundred thousand,

would the gambling house have to, you know, stop it or say, hey, we'll pay you later. Does that ever happen in the private gambling houses? Usually it's controlled, controlled. Like nowadays, they'll give it like a marker. You go in there and they know where you're from.

They know what business you own. For example, you know, they know how much you bet. They know your betting habits, your betting limits, you know. Because they don't just let strangers in, you know. They know who you are. They know your background. So they'll give you a, let's say they give you a credit line for like $20,000. You lose the $20,000.

Okay. You pay the $20,000 first. And then you get another credit line. So usually that's how they operate now by giving out the line of credit. Otherwise, who's going to come to you? Right. Nobody's going to bring $20,000 to, back in those days. Yeah, they bring cash.

But then over the years, it transitioned into like a form of a marker. They can throttle it a little bit. Yeah. But as far as those stories, I never heard of it because I didn't deal with that kind of money because my gambling house had like a and when I protected the gambling house as a kid

I didn't care like I wasn't into that so I didn't pay attention to that because they were older than me I was like 16, 17, 18 years old and these guys are like 40, 50 your soldier your job is protected so I wasn't watching how they play or whatever it didn't fascinate me until I, you know, got a taste of it when I went to Atlantic City.

And then my gambling house had four mahjong tables and a poker table that I can use for, like, Chinese poker or blackjack. Now, you had mentioned that gambling within the Asian community is very popular. Of course, because when you come to this country and you don't speak a word of English, right? And you're looking at the 70s and 80s during that time. What are you going to do? Your form of entertainment is going to be gambling or watching a movie in a movie data. That's why there's so many movie there is in Chinatown, you know, showcasing movies from Hong Kong. You had music palace, pagoda theater, Sun Sing Theater, and a rosemary dealer and a couple of other theaters, you know, in that vicinity.

Because that's their only form of entertainment. payment, right? The other form is to go out to a restaurant and have dinner. They're not, the money that they make, they're not going to go to a Broadway show or Disney Cruise. Right. And on top of that, a Broadway show will be in English. Exactly. So it's like, what is the point? Exactly. Interesting. So is gambling for, you know, I guess like Asians or Asians Americans, Asian Americans in the United States more popular than it is in mainland China? It's illegal to gamble in China. Completely.

There's no casino in China. Oh, wow. I mean, Hong Kong, there must be casinos, right? Macau. They go to Macau. In Macau, right? Yeah. Macau is the gambling capital of the world.

Right. That's... Yeah. Because the people from mainland China were all over there. Mm. But it's like a destination, though. Yes. And they have other things to do, I presume.

Whereas in the United States, you know, it's film and, you know, other types of social activities. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. But I'm sure there must have been, like, you know, other forms of, like, Chinese entertainment, whether it be like, you know, like a singing club or, you know, like a concert venue or other types of live entertainment for Chinatown and Chinese Americans. The movie theaters in Chinatown back in those days,

they have the live Chinese opera. Uh. Yeah. Went to a couple of those that my grandma, Oh, you used to take me too. But this would be like something that older people would do? Yes. I see.

So if you're like a, you know, 20, maybe 30 year old, you know, Chinese person living in America, it's like, what can I do? Go to the game room, Chinatown Fair. Right. You said Chinatown Fair? That's what it was called. Yeah, it's on my street. Check it out. Is it still there?

Yes. Oh, wow. Check out the history. How long it's been there? Chinatown Fair. Arcade. Oh, wow. That's cool.

And is it all similar? games that we have here, are they completely different games? They're the stand-alone video games that I remember dropping quarters into, I don't know how much is it now. I haven't played a video game for a long time. The last time I played the video games was probably, at the home console was, I remember Atari, 2,600. You're too young.

Yeah, yeah, that was before my time. Yeah, Atari, 2600. Hmm. What are the best, what were like the Chinese restaurants you would go to in Chinatown that were like notorious gang spots? War Hop. I've been to Wohop. War Hop, yep. And that was like a legendary spot. Yeah, one of a kids that's crew member, I spotted two eagles in there, drag them out one by one and shot them dead right outside the restaurant and brought daylight.

Okay, why? A lot of people don't understand Like the Chinese Culture Mentality He could have shot him dead In the restaurant The ghost shouts

But they knew the owner They have respect for the owner You know So they drag them out And shot them outside the restaurant Wow Just like the case With one of my

Fellow gang members We used to hang out In triangle pool hall Triangle Billiards right off King's Highway and two ghost shadows came in and checked my friend and he fought back

and was able to grab the gun away from the ghost shadows the two ghost shadows and now he's chasing after them instead of shooting them inside the pool hall he would do the shooting outside because he had too much respect for the

old man, the white guy the Italian guy because they always give us table time. You see what I'm saying? So it's all about respect. You respect us, we respect you.

Right. The shooting could have happened inside the pool hall. The shooting could have happened inside the restaurant. But then you lose face. You, you know, you disrespect. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. I mean, that's something that, you know, Kijai was telling me that there was one time he was walking into a restaurant and he was, you know, holding the door open for a woman and her kid.

And a guy was in the rain, and he kind of, like, ran in and kind of pushed them out of the way and ran into the restaurant. And he was just so offended by the lack of respect for a woman and her kid that he saw the guy eating. He waited until he was done eating. And then they went outside, and he handled it and kind of, you know, kind of intimidated him,

kind of shook him up a little. And it was like, don't be disrespecting people, specifically within our community. Don't be disrespecting. you know, women and children, you know, when you're going to a restaurant. And it wasn't for any type of gang-related thing. It was just the fact that he saw a guy being disrespectful. And how important respect is to him, he was like, you can't do that.

A lot of people died in Chinatown because of disrespecting somebody else. Yeah, the respect component, I think, is interesting that within, you know, criminal organizations, you have a code of honor and respect and never leaving behind your brothers, but also simultaneously kind of, you know, operating a legal business and that these two things coexist in harmony. And that I think it actually exposes something that's fundamental to human beings is that, you know, not betraying people close to you is fundamental and goes across the board, even beyond crime or anything like that. Or if you make a promise or you give your word to somebody, have you ever been able to somebody? Have you ever been a problem?

I never heard of Pashton Wally? Right, you were mentioned this. Something like that. Mm-hmm. Can you explain Pashtun Wally? And it's very admirable, you know. Could you explain the idea of Pashtun Wally? Better for you to explain it.

Yeah, you know about it. Right, you were telling me before this idea in Afghanistan that, you know, within the Taliban, the United States, or, you know, the US military as combat would happen, that the Afghans would protect one guy and they would risk the entire tribe. and the livelihood of everyone else to protect even just one member and that no one would get left behind. And it was this principle of Pashtun Wally that they would risk everything to not let one person down because they have their word.

Isn't that admirable? Yeah, absolutely. And regardless of if it's a criminal organization or a government that seems like it's at odds with America, I think you can look at all of these different people and say they're operating by a code of honor, which I think is, yeah, Yeah, on its face, it's very admirable.

See, we had nobody, right, except to protect our own, especially back then. Chinatown, all you had was Manhattan's Chinatown. There was only one Chinatown in the 70s. So where are you going to go? That's your family. The Chinese gang kids, the Daedot would get an apartment for them to stay in, you know, an apartment, several apartments. So they all group together, they live together.

They don't go home to the parents. So they're able to form that bond because they're spending so much time together. Day in and day out. You know, as opposed to the other ethnic groups, right? You have the local street gangs, you know, like the blacks, the Hispanics, the Italians, the teenagers. At the end of the day, they go home to their family. Mm-hmm. Most of them, I'm saying.

But Asian gang kids, they're out there living in a group, just like the Vietnamese, the refugees. It's a different era now. But if you go back to that time when all these kids were refugees from Vietnam, Lao, and Cambodia, what they went through, how their lives were disrupted, right, done to Khmer Rouge, with the Vietnam War going on. The bombings in Laos. The bombing and Laos, right? They came here with nobody.

They don't have a family. Parents are killed. They're in an orphanage, and they get shipped over here. Or maybe sponsored by the church or whatever the sponsors, get them here. help them out, and then after that, they're out to fend for themselves. There's no job opportunities for them. They don't speak the language.

Half of them to fit in. Education, everything. So they resort to crime. Mm-hmm. Right? They don't want to. They had no choice, some of them. What would you do in that situation?

If you get thrown to Vietnam and you have to start a new life over there and you don't have any parents, who's your family? Yeah, I would do whatever it takes. And if the people I'm with, they're like, hey, here's what we do. Yeah.

Right. So those were the kids that I was with. I was with a lot of Cambodians, you know, La Haitian and Vietnamese. Mm. And the Chinese, remember the time period, people coming from China during that time,

they were dirt poor, otherwise they wouldn't risk their life to come to the United States. As opposed to now, people coming from China into this country, they have money. Right? And buy apartments and they can live good lives.

Yes. In that time, it was not the case. No. Was there any, like, internationality, conflict or misunderstanding that would happen amongst, you know, Chinese people that immigrated versus Vietnamese or Cambodian? Or was it all like, hey, we're all coming from a similar circumstance, so we're just going to stick together regardless of the differences? There was a conflict between the Chinese and the Vietnamese gang.

The BTK, when the BTK formed, originally they were known as the Canal Boys. Eventually, this guy named David Dai. started this group called the Canal Boys, got all the Vietnamese together. So a lot of the Viamese from the Fuching, from the Flying Dragons and Ghost House, they all flocked over to be with David Dai, to be under David Dai.

And that kind of united things. And they didn't follow the traditional unwritten street rules that the Chinese gangs had all those years. they didn't follow those rules they were hungry they wanted a piece of Chinatown

the Chinese gangs gave it to them there's so much money to be made in Chinatown they can have Canal Street they had no problems with that but they did things differently and that's what caused the gang war if you read the book it's in there everything about the Canal Boys

and the Chinese gangs that whole conflict is laid out Mm-hmm. They, they did things differently. They bombed the policeman. Yeah. That brought attention to all the gangs. Yeah.

I mean, made everything, I'm sure, way more scrutinized. They refused to have a sit-down with Uncle Seven. You know, Uncle Seven wanted to keep things quiet. And David Die refused to sit down. It's on my channel. I interviewed Teardrop. was a BTK member. He elaborated on that.

You know, the things they did, they were wild. They didn't care. You know, they took violence to a different level. Even the war between them and the ghost shadows, there was a shooting. They killed the second in command.

They shot them dead. And then at the funeral, the ghost shadows went to the cemetery and shot them up and there was over 100 shots fired between the BTK and the ghost shadows. I had the cemetery. Yeah, it's in the newspaper, look it up.

Wow. Remember, a lot of things the Chinese did, the Asian gangs did, it didn't make the papers. So if you look during that time period, there's a lot of articles, but it didn't make the front page because the Italians took the front page of the news,

the Italian mafia. So we were always like in the police blotter or maybe in the middle of the newspaper, page two, three or whatever. But there's a lot of articles. But think about how many went unreported. So imagine how wild it was back then. I mean, crazy.

But again, that's probably good for business, right? Like you can, something can happen. A violent outbreak can occur, but it's not going to bring so much attention because a lot of it's getting deviated. to other places. So it probably lets things kind of continue to grow for better for worse.

Because of that war, gang war, there was an innocent bystander, a tourist that got shot and killed in Chinatown. That's a big issue. Yeah, that's when the police cracked down. Right. And did that disrupt the gangs ultimately? Like, was it starting there

that it kind of started to get a little bit fragmented from the police? That was the beginning to the end. I really knew it was going to end. After the tourists got shot and killed, I knew, and the police van got bombed. I know it was going to come to the end soon. And is that what initiated some of your desire to leave that life?

No, no. I mean, there's other reasons, other variables. It's not just one particular reason, but I want to mention the story about this young cop at the time, Stephen McDonald. He was shot by a teenage kid and left a quadriplegic. And I was following his story throughout the years, because I was always looking in the newspaper

for any articles about us. So I came across his story and by time the case went to court, he forgave the kid who shot him. He forgave him. I tried to wrap that around my head. Like in my world, you don't forgive. And then he made a statement that I read in the newspaper at the time. He forgave him because this kid was a product of his. environment.

I was young. I didn't know what that meant. This first time I ever heard about that term, you know, you're a product of your environment. And then I thought to myself, I remember thinking to myself, am I a product of my environment? Do I, like,

I can't understand, like, how he can forgive somebody who did that to him. Like, for me, I would get my revenge, no matter how long it takes. You don't have to wait for him to come out from jail.

from prison, I'll wait, you know, or have somebody get to him, you know, like that. You know, so it wasn't in my mindset. So then I realized, like, really, maybe my way of thinking is wrong, you know. So I did a last self-reflection. And that's another reason why I didn't get into hard drugs as well, because, you know, when you get into hard drugs, you got to make a decision. You know, because at that time, you kill somebody.

You get caught. You get a chance to come out pretty quick if you get a good lawyer, you know, self-defense, whatever manslaughter. But you deal with drugs, getting locked up for a long time, especially heroin, because I had access to it and my dialogue had access to it. But luckily, my dialogue,

turned it down. But that's another story. So going back to Stephen McDonald, yeah, so I try to wrap it around my head. Like, that's not how I grew up. I grew up, like, watching these movies about revenge and so I'm like thinking, maybe doing the right thing is a good thing because I've been doing all these bad things when I'm out there. So I guess he planted the seed in my mind. So I took that police exam. I didn't think anything of it. That was probably 1990. I took the exam.

And then in 1993, they called me. I got the letter to go in and the phone call. But I wasn't ready because, you know, I was making money out there. And I wasn't ready, so I turned it down. And then by the time 1994

rolled around, they called me again, say, hey, there's your last chance. Your list is going to expire. you want the job. And by that time, a lot of my friends either got killed, they were in prison. And the gangs, as we know it, was already over because the feds picked them up by 94. And yeah, so I decided, you know, and I remember that I got to get out of this environment.

even before that I'm like I just needed to get out some like how how do you get out you're so deep into it like how do I get out you know I was thinking maybe the military you know or the police department so I took the police test and see what happened and then they actually called me wow yeah and then I got sworn in June of 95 and I went into a police Academy for nine months. Nobody knew about it. I didn't say a word to nobody, anybody. You know, and, uh, is it? After nine months came out, still didn't say anything. I got assigned to the 66 prison. And then from there, they sent me, being that I was a rookie, they sent me to a detail at a park, prospect park. So I was there for like, another

four months came back and had different various foot posts around the area. I remember there was a hospital that was on strike. So I was there for a while. So it wasn't until probably about a little over maybe a year before I got assigned to work in Chinatown. So I basically disappeared for like a year between the police academy, the footposts before I got signed to Chinatown. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because your food sucks.

That's right. We live in a country where unfortunately a lot of the food we eat, even if you try to eat clean pesticides and seed oils and who knows what else is in your, you know, your seizure wrap. And that is why it is important to supplement your food. This is what I do on a daily basis and I do it with symbiotica. Yes, I love symbiotica because it is the easiest way for me to supplement my food and get all the nutrients that I need that I should be getting from my food.

But unfortunately, I don't because, you know, the world and capitalism or whatever. But with symbiotica, I'm able to get my magnesium, which I take every single night that helps me to sleep. I take my colostrum, which is great for my gut health, that helps my skin, and it gives me an immune boost. And the thing that I'm most excited about is mineral shilogit. Shilagit is an ancient mineral resin that literally comes from the Himalayas.

It sounds crazy, but it's not. It's right here in this little jar, just a little dab into some warm water. And since I've been taking it, I mean, it's full of like folvic acid, you know, trace minerals, all the stuff you should be getting from your food, but you're not. and since I've been taken, I feel sharper, my energy is more consistent and stable. I'm not reaching for the third coffee. Instead, the Sheila-Geed keeps me locked in.

Another thing I love about symbiotica is that instead of taking a handful of pills and people look at you like a crazy person, they actually get curious. They see you taking this awesome little liquid gel pack that tastes amazing, and they go, what is that? What are you taking right there? And I tell them I'm taking my symbiotica for my health because I'm trying to live until I'm 180 years old. So if you're interested in reclaiming your health for the summer, feeling better,

having more stable energy and doing it in the tastiest way possible. Go to symbiotica.com slash camp. Use the promo code camp and you will get 20% off your order and free shipping if you go to symbiotica.com slash camp or click on, you know, the description. You'll see the links right there or even in the bottom of this banner. Now let's get back to the show. What's up, guys? We need to talk skincare.

That's right. If you've ever heard me on flagrant or even on this show, I have talked about my love for beef town. Yes, I'm not talking about some, you know, lab-made sludge with 39 syllables and a bunch of chemicals and stuff. I'm talking about good old-fashioned beef tallow. Just, yes, it's cow fat. I know. It sounds crazy, but there's a reason that people have used this for thousands of years.

This is the moisturizer that your ancestors used before, you know, big lotion and chemicals and pharma companies came and messed it all up with seed oil scams and chemical cocktails. All right. Talo has been used for thousands of years. The ancient Egyptians walking through the desert. they put on beef tallow to make their skin look good and feel good and not crack and actually hold up in the elements. Greeks and Romans, they used it to heal wounds and keep their skin from looking, you know, like papyrus. And even your great, great grandma, she probably used it. I don't know. And here's the great thing with beef tallow.

It's got a bunch of, you know, fat-sliable, you know, vitamins, A, D, E, and K. And it actually mimics your skin's natural oils because it comes from a living thing. That means your body recognizes it and says, oh, yeah, this is good stuff. And you don't have some crazy reaction. And, you know, not like the $90 serums that smell like eucalyptus or whatever. I use it. My wife steals it. My baby uses it.

Everyone in the family looks good and feels good with the power of beef towel. So right before bed, I literally just take like a little fingerful, wipe it in my hands, and rub it on my face. And you kind of spread it in evenly. It comes in a bunch of great flavors. It smells amazing. And when I wake up, I feel moisturized. and refreshed. And if you're interested, you can go now and get the best beef tallow on the market. I'll be honest, all beef tallow is basically the same. You know, it all is great stuff. It's all very

natural. This one is natural just like the rest. But this one is 30% off when you go to evil goods. That's right. When you go to evil goods, you subscribe. Just click the link at the top of the video description or go to evil goods.com slash camp. Do it for your skin. Do it for the cow. Do it for your ancestors. All right. Let's get back to the show. I'm curious. Did you talk to your parents at all about joining the police force? Like, did they have any idea of what your, you know, history was before that? They don't ask any questions.

Because when I was in the gang, I was rebellious already. They know not to ask. And then you stop coming home, you're staying at the house. Yes. If I come home, it'll be, like, passing by or come home, and then I'll head back out again. And if I stay home, sometimes I'll come home. or bruise and beaten up, you know,

they know not to ask us. They know I'm not going to answer them. They know I'm not going to answer their questions, you know. Sometimes I'll come home with a backflow of, you know, illegal stuff. They're not going to ask. You know, they're not going to ask. And what kind of work?

What kind of work did they do, your parents? My mom worked in the factory when she was younger. and then my father he he's like a like sort of like a day labor yeah

he's like a handyman he can fix anything he's a electrician plumber you name it he can do it so I mean he grew up

dirt poor poor where he was like I guess he's self-made you know he is very frugal if you see him in the street

you would you wouldn't you would think he's like a bum yeah no money because he because he would still be wearing the same clothes after all these years

and he wouldn't spend money on on himself like let's put it this way He would, if a house is burned down, he can rebuild it, ground up. Right. That's how handy it is. Mm-hmm.

And he's a minimalist like you? No. He's not. He's not. He's more like a hoarder. Oh, he's a hoarder. Yeah. Because he's full of.

Right. So anytime he gets something, he's like, we're going to fix it. Yeah. Like instead of like buying a TV stand, he'll build one, you know, like sort of like that. Oh, wow. So that's where me and him are at odds. Mm-hmm. Okay.

So over the years, like he would buy houses and he would build them, fix it, and sell it. And eventually he was able to own multiple properties, you know, self-made, and they would rent it out. So, you know, he has quite a few properties in Brooklyn. Wow. Yeah. And then now he's older, you know, so. He can't tend to it as much. He had six family, multiple two families.

That's amazing. Yeah, self-made. And did they... Let's put it this way. I, like, I would, I could never make the amount of money he made. Think about a contractor. Yeah, I mean, it's crazy. Yeah, especially if you're good and you've been in it a long time.

Those days, yeah. And if you buy, his first house he bought was 35,000, 40,000. I remember, you know, get a house like that in Brooklyn. You can't get anything in Brooklyn nowadays for that kind of money. And then I think his second house was like $180,000 right by Avenue P and East 16. And then he bought a six family on Avenue S right by the school around East 14 around there. And then he bought another two family in Brighton Beach, you know, when he was making money. he's very frugal.

Right. He never took a vacation, never went anywhere, you know, very stubborn. Just works and took care of the family. No, he worked and he used the money by houses. I'm like, that's where me and him are at arts. Like he wouldn't spend the money to go out and have a nice family dinner. When I was a kid growing up, we would always be eating at home. It's like, we don't get to, we don't get to,

enjoy the little things, you know. Like, he never took me to see a movie. You know, my uncle was the one who took me to see my first American movie, Star Wars. Oh, nice. We never went on a vacation. Yeah. Didn't know what a hotel room looked like, you know, with my father. So that's the type of life he lived, a very frugal life.

Wow. You know. So when you. joined the police force, did you tell them? I don't tell them anything. If they see me coming home in my recruit uniform, yeah, then the only, I think the only person who really knew was, for me, was my sister, because I needed somebody to give me a reference.

I need a reference to put down. So I gave my sister heads up. Oh, wow. I'm not going to advertise anything. to anybody. Right, you keep yourself, keep it moving. Yeah, I keep it myself. Did you ever tell Diamond?

No. I didn't tell Diamond until many years later. I think I had like a couple of years as a cop before I flew over to Guyana. And I had to tell him in person, though, because Diamond is a gangster. He's nothing to do with the cops. I, like he's a gangster gangster. Yeah. So I told him.

In person, I flew to Guyana. Wow. and had to tell him in person. And what did he say? He goes, Mike, that's a heart pill to swallow. But he accepted it. But he thinks, Mike, that ain't you, Mike, he goes. I remember he says, Mike, that ain't you.

I know that ain't you. He goes, you must have went in to infiltrate the NYPD, right? I go, no diamond. I don't know. It's not what you think. He goes, that's a hard pill to swallow. But he accepted it because we were that close. Right, it's your brother.

Yes. So in the first couple years that you're on the force, what kind of tasks were you assigned? What sort of cases were you following? You mean as a detective or as a rookie cop? I guess as a rookie cop, but then later as a detective? As a rookie copyer, footposts most of the time.

Back in those days, it's different than now. You got to be on footposts. You don't get to ride in the car right away. You got to pay your dues. Right. It's mostly on my footposts. Mm-hmm. Walking up and down Chinatown.

Seeing the same people, I'm sure, that you grew up with. Yes. And how did they treat you when they saw you in the uniform? It's in my book. Oh, wow. Bad to Blue. And then once you're a detective, what cases are you getting?

As a detective, working in a squad, you get everything. Everything comes your way. And then the only thing I don't deal with is a sex crime. If a sex crime come my way, it goes to special victims.

But robbery. Everything comes my way. Homicide, everything. It comes my way. And then if it's a special case, and goes into specialized units, but mostly we're the lead detectives. So in your time as a detective,

which was a long time, what are some of the cases that you were most proud of? Most proud of? Well, there was a case where this kid was targeting, a non-Asian kid was targeting Asian females, robbing them. I think I charged him with like 16,

counts of robbery. Yeah, he was robbing these Asian females walking the street late at night in Chinatown, taking their handbag, take the money, and threw away the handbags. So we recovered a lot of the handbags

like Chanel, Louis Vuitton. This kid didn't know that the handbags were worth thousands of dollars, but meanwhile, he would take the couple hundred dollars and he's happy with that.

Wow. So, yeah, so that's one of the cases. in my book. Wow. And then there's another case. There was this Hispanic kid that committed a robbery and there was a shooting involved.

The guy got injured. And I arrested him. He was a juvenile. He came out after a couple of years. He didn't do that long. It was a couple of years. And I was working one day. And I was at another precinct

to do something. I forgot what it was. I had to leave my prison to go to another prison. And I was a detective at the time, and I was in a suit and tie. And this kid was walking up towards me. I'm like wondering who this kid is. So I was, you know,

I was very alert, you know. And I'm wondering, why is this kid walking towards me? But he didn't walk up towards me in a threatening manner. But I still kept my guards up. And he came up to me and says, Do you remember me? I go, no. He goes, I'm so-and-so.

You arrested me for that shooting. I did years ago. I go, okay. Now I remember. How are you doing? And he offered his hand to me for a handshake. And shook my hand. He said, I want to thank you.

For what? I said, for treating me with respect. Yeah. So I said, I hope you change your life around. He goes, yeah, man. He says, I'm not about that no more. I said, I'm happy for you, you know, change your life around. Yeah. I mean, that's powerful.

Like that one action maybe changed his life, his kid's life. Yeah, exactly. Wow. Yeah, that must be really rewarding as a police officer. That was a rewarding moment for me, you know. Yeah, that's, yeah, that must be profound to see people that you experienced at their their lowest moment, you know, when they were at a point where they were kind of at rock bottom and then to see them turn it around.

Because I came from there. Right. That was you at one point, you know? Yeah. That's why when I was out there in Chinatown walking my beat, I used a lot of discretion. I could have locked up a lot of people. And there's some stories I didn't even put in my book, you know, and that's why I get a lot of respect in Chinatown. Did your history in crime affect your ability to get the job at all? Like, did they ask you and investigate your background?

And was that an issue when joining the police force? As far as my background check? Yeah. They're very thorough. They have a checklist. Right. You go to the checklist, you know, interview your neighbors, you know, see if you have any debt, see if you have, you know, summonses, see your past work history, education. I remember I had to go back there over a dozen times to my investigator and report to my investigator, like, over a dozen times.

but on paper you got nothing on me right so-called model minority that's you maybe that played in effect and I was always in the suit like if you see some of my old pictures

you know I didn't dress like your typical gangster just like a businessman right and they probably followed me around, right? They see how I dress, and the people I was dealing with, but I was at the heart of Flatbush.

I was the owner of that establishment. So, of course, there's going to be undesirable going in and out of that location, right? So that's my speculation. I mean, they did visit and make phone calls to the neighbors and your sister

and my sister the owner of the laundromat that I used for dry cleaning my clothes Oh really? You know, they went there. But what are they going to say about me? Yeah. What's my neighbor going to say?

I don't even talk to my neighbors. Right. I remember I had maybe like four years on the job at the time I was a cop for four years already. I went for an interview because I made a bribery arrest. And when you make a bribery arrest, that's another story in my book.

Some guy offered me a, he was going to open a prostitution house and offered me a bribe to any girls I want every month to watch, protect his gambling house. I was a cop in uniform in Chinatown. So when I make an arrest like that, they offer me to go, you know, any way I want in the department. They asked me, where you want to go?

So I went for an interview. I picked a detail that I wanted to go to. I was interested in. The department actually take care of you. If you're, you know, you're making an arrest like that. I didn't believe it, but, you know, they actually do. So they interviewed me. The person interviewed me was a lieutenant.

during the course of interview she asked where I live she was shocked when she found out I live right across the street from her on the same block and she didn't know I was a cop Wow You know how some people you're a cop

You want to flaunt it You show everybody Because I always see Like there's a couple of cops Who live on my block Right And I always see cop cars Park there

You know They come home say hello to the family, but I don't advertise it. I don't want people to know I'm a cop. Even my own neighbors don't know I'm a cop. Now, is that on purpose, or is that just because... No, that's just me, my personality.

That's just how you are. You keep to yourself no matter what. I keep it myself. Are they doing crime or as law enforcement, you keep everything to yourself. Yeah, that's really interesting. I'm a very private person. I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for the book.

Right. Okay, because I feel that. It's more important to preserve this piece of history and nobody's doing it. You know, this is a bit gone. It'll be swept under the rug. Just wanna let people know how it was back then. And Chinatown Gang Stories, the YouTube channel,

does an amazing job of creating an actual documented library of all the people that actually experienced this part of history, the good parts and the bad parts. It's hard to get a former gang member to deal with a, former cop. They want nothing to do with that. But most of the guys on my channel,

I grew up with them. They trust me. It wasn't for that level of trust and respect. They wouldn't come out and talk on this channel. They wouldn't come on my channel and talk about their experiences. Yeah, it requires a lot of mutual trust that, hey, you're not going to, you know, make me. look bad, you're not going to malign me, you're not going to disrespect me just because I had this

experience in crime. You know, there's a mutual, but also at the same time, they're not going to disrespect you because you chose law enforcement, you know, like some, some guys would see that as a as a bad thing, but there's a mutual respect that goes both ways. That's really cool. Did you ever have anyone on your channel that you arrested? No. That would be an interesting conversation. I wonder if you know anyone that's still, you know, out in Chinatown that you had arrested. Maybe someone like this kid that turned his life around. He's not an Asian. He's not an Asian.

He's not an Asian gang member. He's Hispanic. Maybe there's a possibility. You make me, yeah, there's a kid that I arrested that maybe he would come on his channel. We'll see. How did your experience in crime make you a better cop? Because I'm sure you could think like how criminals think. And that probably made you a better detective.

I don't think it would make me a better detective. I think it made me be able to deal with people better, especially because I'm around the criminal element. I know how do you think. So when I make the arrest, I know their mindset You know I understand their mindset

So I definitely don't get Lax Keep my guards up Be alert Make sure if I'm going to search you I'm going to search you thoroughly And I'm going to

Be reading your body language Because they can sense advantage Or they can sense weakness You know Or when you let guards down. They can sense it. What was the most intimidating moment for you as a police officer working on a case?

Was there any moment that scared you or you felt like was too dangerous while you were on the job? There was this mob hit, an Italian mob hit. Yeah, the body was dumped in the confines of our patient and I wind up catching the case. Yeah, the guy who did, the guy who we suspected, who did the job. he served about 15 years in prison already for unrelated homicide and this guy wanted to make a name for himself and killed this kid because this kid owed the mob

$100,000 dollars him and his partner so basically the mob fronted them the money to run a construction site but you know he had a bad drug habit So he lost all that money, couldn't pay back. They killed him.

So it was, um, it's a lot of, I did a lot of work on that job, that case. And, um, you know, we even had the, the guy who killed his victim, he went to his funeral. I went to the funeral to try to talk to him, just to get a feel, you know, how he's going to react. this guy is he's a seasoned criminal so he wouldn't talk so we had the I called in

the special unit from the NYPD to record him his movements and we called everyone who went in and out of the funeral home

and I had the helicopter follow him had the NYPD helicopter in the sky, follow him, see where he went after the funeral. But he was keen to that also. Wow. Yeah, so he was driving in circles.

So, yeah, some people are seasoned criminals. They're not easy to catch. Eventually, that case is still open and eventually the feds took it over. They came to my office and they took it over. And it's in their hands. I'm pretty sure the feds have more resources to deal with that. The last I heard, he's in prison for life.

Wow. That's a wild case. He went to the funeral. Yeah. That's pretty bold. I mean, that's wild. Now, we were talking a little bit before. It wouldn't be an episode of camp if I didn't ask you this question.

Were there any police officers on the force that, had experienced UFOs. Oh, I love your show about UFOs. I'm really into that also. Yeah. Actually, yes, because I remember as a detective, you know, I was like, every time I see something in the news, I would, like, you spend a lot of time in the office.

I spend more time in the office than at home with overtime and everything. So, you know, we talk about anything and everything. And the topic of UFO came about, and I asked her, some of my colleagues, have you ever experienced the UFO before? Because I never experienced one, right? But I was always fascinated by this topic. And one guy, he was, yeah. He said, when I was a kid, I was riding my BMX bike.

And it was a clear blue hot summer day, clear blue sky. And up in the sky, I saw like an orange dot. right, like a dot, orange. It was glowing orange dot. I'm looking at it, like, what is that? And it's just like hovering in the air. And then in a matter of seconds, it's just like shot off into the air. So fast, like in the blink of an eye, it's gone.

And I'm talking to a senior detective, about to retire. and he's he's a level-headed he doesn't joke around he's not that type he's a very serious guy and he says to this day I can't I don't understand what that was right it's something that he saw that he couldn't understand what it was right so that's one story and another story he's a black detective that I work with the other guy was a Hispanic detective for those of people who work with me listening to this, they probably know who I'm talking about. So this black detective was driving in his car one day,

and all of a sudden it was in the middle of the night, like 2, 3 a.m. in the morning, nobody was out in the street. And you know in Brooklyn, you have these buildings that's pretty high up, you know, like six-story buildings, someone like 12-story. buildings and he's driving and all of a sudden became like really dark like then he looked up in the sky and he saw something that's like flying in the air didn't make a sound noiseless has no sound whatsoever and this thing was as as big as like a football field and he's looking up in the air right it's got some lights little lights not like really that's going to bright up the

dark in the street as it passed by because it was so big that he couldn't see the whole entire thing all he saw was an object just flying over he couldn't explain that and it was in Brooklyn wow you know

and it wasn't in the news and was he the only one that saw it or did he say he was with anyone else at the time he was himself by himself he just couldn't explain what it was he said this thing was so big it didn't make I asked maybe it's a blimp, maybe, no, but it's too big to be, it's like, it covered the whole sky, like, just flew right across.

Bizarre. Yeah. And then it took off, like. Um, yeah, it just flew off, like, didn't make a noise. Strange. I mean, it didn't take off, he didn't say it took off, like, into the sky. It just kept on going. Kept on going until he lost sight of it.

Bizarre. Yeah. at that rate of speed. Right. This guy, Nick Pope that I had on the podcast, he was an English guy that worked within the Ministry of Defense and did some of the, you know, for exactly what they call it,

the anomalous phenomena, UFO type things. And he described one exactly like that, that he was working on a case where a bunch of people had seen this thing that was like the size of a football field. Like he used that same term, he said soccer field, but it was going, and it was like just massive and dark and it just kind of like went over them

and then just sort of like and multiple independent people had reported it and then he was in charge of taking in all the reports for the government to log them and he was like we never there was no military drill that happened that was disclosed to us and he never knew what it was. I think all this stuff is made by humans.

I can't see any of this made by another intelligent civilization, you know, beyond this planet. Right, it's hard to fathom. No, because think about it. If you so far more advanced than us, right, we're not going to be able to see them. What this planet is about, what, 4.5 billion years old? The universe is about 15 billion.

So you got another 10 billion years ahead of us in technology, if that, right? you're not going to be able to see them. Right? Think about we have nanotechnology now. What do they have? Right? You think they're going to send a drone here the size of a school bus or soccer field? They'll send a drone here, maybe even smaller than a flea.

Right. You're not going to see them. Right. Why would, all this stuff is made here. Yeah. So I guess some foreign government testing military, our own government doing military testing or something. Yeah. And why would they?

Let's say the aliens, why would they send them here when they could send a drone here? Right. Right? Yeah. And the drone could be the size of a flea. Of a germ. Who knows? A germ.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, I don't know exactly. I sometimes have a hard time fathoming that it's, you know, a foreign civilization. I tend to think that it's... I think the government's just planting the seeds in people's head. Distract them from other things in this world.

Yeah, of course. That's what I think. That happens all the time. Because they have technology, they have satellites that's able to see the time on your watch. And this technology was back in the 70s. Oh, wow. Right? Yeah.

Have you ever heard of that? I never knew. The August cameras? No, I never knew it was that precise. A satellite in space? That they could see your watch. They could see the time on your watch, yeah. Wow.

Where was the technology come from? There's a lot of technology that the government's not going to. Yeah. It never goes out. Well, it never goes out. It never goes out. Mm-hmm. Wow.

You know? That's crazy. There were guys in the forest that had experienced something like that. Did they ever report it? Did they ever go anywhere or did they just have the experience in their life? That's weird. Did they what? Did they ever report the experience?

Like, did they ever... No, they never even... There's no place really to report it. No, we're going to report it. Yeah. Some weird thing you saw? Reported a Mufon. Yeah.

It's just such a bizarre thing. I think about it. these stories all the time. Like, I wonder what that is. I wonder what they saw. It's interesting, though. It's entertaining. Yeah, that's how I feel about it. I like to think about it. And I'm like, because I, again, I don't think these people are crazy. I don't think, they're lying. They're going to see what they believe. Yeah. Right? They're going to see. It's just like religion, right? You're going to see what you believe. A person in China on their deathbed it's not going to see Jesus Christ, right?

But there are people who may see Jesus Christ if they believe in Jesus, right? Mm-hmm. But if you don't believe, so they see what they believe. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's fair. Now, when you ultimately retire from the NYPD, and we don't have to go into too much detail on this because I know this is not, there's still some pending, you know, circumstances given the lawsuit.

But you've sanctioned the litigation against the NYPD, PD. What can you say about that? Well, I can only say what's already public information. Mm-hmm. Okay. And the case has been pending for... Since 2019, right?

Yeah. What, six years already and still waiting for justice? Mm-hmm. But look at the guys that did this to me. Right? You have James Colbell. He was the commanding officer of EEO.

And one of my case went nowhere. In EEO, what is that? Equal employment opportunity. The NYPD investigates that. And he was the top dog there. Okay. And he was, read about him in the newspaper. Look what he did.

Okay. Read about him in the newspaper. James Cobell, NYPD. Mm-hmm. Okay. Then the lieutenant who investigated my case. John Dandola NYPD read about him

what he did this was all after my case and what can you say about your case I'm not going to talk about my case but just these are the guys to handle my case and did this to me okay and so now you still have a lawsuit

with them waiting to get resolved yes and then you have Anthony Carrera the detective in my office. He recently got arrested for the PPP fraud. Then you got Roel Khal Khalid. Okay.

Read about him. NYPD. He's a suspect in a homicide case. Okay. Then you got Yusuf Issa in my office. You got court. stealing time and read about him in the New York Post. He scammed $15,000 from Easy Pass, right?

Read about that case. Then you got my commanding officer, Gary Corporal. Right? Read about him in the newspaper. Then you got William Greer. Right, I wouldn't talk about William Greer if he didn't turn a against me and went with them to drop his testimony, right? He was my partner.

Read about him in newspaper. So when do you... Excuse me? I was going to... I'm curious, like, when do you think the case will be resolved? I don't know. What is the next thing? We use of justice is slow sometimes.

Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. Let's see. And you have Elvis Mazzotti, read about him in the papers. It's not a coincidence. These people got away with what they did to me, right? And that's what emboldened them, maybe, to do these things, right?

Because when you get away with something, right, you get bolder. Has the lawsuit and what was done to you affected the way that you think about your police career? Does it tarnish it? No, no, there's a lot of good people in NYPD. It just happened that I came across some bad ones, you know? Mm-hmm. I went from bad to blue. They went from blue to bad.

Right. I think you took the right track. Bad to blue sounds better to me. Mm-hmm. And that's the name of your book that comes out July 1st. Yes. And where can people get it? Um, they can get it on Amazon and Amazon.

That's awesome. And yeah, it's coming out soon. You go through your whole career. A lot of the stories that we talked about, but even more stories that we didn't talk about today that are all detailed in the book. Are there any stories that you can tease just maybe like a brief idea that people might be interested in if they want to check out the book? Is there anything we didn't talk about today that you want to tee up for people to go check out? There was a kid. I mean, when I was bullied, I became a bully myself. So there was a kid that I bullied. I believe it was in the fifth grade. I was extorting him for his lunch money. And we're talking about almost 40 years later, I come across him in the same precinct that I work at.

And I didn't know. It was him. We worked together for years. And I didn't know that that was the kid that I was extorting money from. Until he walked out one day and I saw his name tag and I saw the last name. Then I went up to him and I asked him,

are you so-and-so? He goes, yeah, who are you? I go, I'm Mike Moy. He goes, get out of here. I was just thinking about you last week. And you pop up in front of my face now. I'm like, did I traumatize you that much for you to be thinking about me after all these years?

He goes, yeah. But read about it in my book. Wow. We worked in the same prison. Wow. Okay, that sounds like a fascinating story. I'm going to check that out. Bad to Blue.

Yes. Out July 1st. Also, Chinatown gang stories on YouTube, amazing interviews, going through the history of Chinatown, specifically the untold crime component. Oftentimes you're getting conversations with people that don't talk to anyone else because of your relationships. And it's kind of the, the, the, hub and the exclusive place to get the actual stories of what New York City, Chinatown was like

in the, you know, 70s, 80s and 90s. Correct. Awesome. Mike Moy. Thank you so much, brother. I really appreciate you joining me today. Thank you, Mark. It's a pleasure be here.

It's my first time camping. Well, you're welcome back anytime. Let's do it again soon. I love this tent. Thank you. Thank you, brother. If you've made it to the end of this episode, that's because you rock with us. And for that, we rock with you.

You are sophisticated. You enjoy honest, honest, true communication, a highbrowed type of. of person that understands this. History is not just dates and names, it is a tapestry of human triumph and tragedy. From the day Nostradamus made his first prophecy to the morning Paul Revere took his midnight ride from ancient oracles to modern revolutionaries. That is why I need you. If you have not already, please sign up for today in history, our free newsletter. Today in history brings you the stories that matter, the moments that changed everything and the secrets hidden in time. Join thousands of

of history enthusiasts who get their daily journey through time. Don't let another day of history pass you by. Take the conversation to your inbox. Sign up now through the QR code or link in the description. Today in history, because history's stories shape tomorrow's world. Thank you for watching the episode. We'll see you next time.