Camp Gagnon - Craziest CIA Operations That ACTUALLY Happened

Episode Date: September 10, 2024

CAMP NEWSLETTER HERE: https://linktw.in/WWqyjeThe CIA has done some CRAZY things in the past 77 years: Mind control, evil dolls, vampire attacks and today I'm breaking down the craziest CIA operations that ACTUALLY happened. My dear friend Julian Dorey from @JulianDorey Show is joining me and we're figuring out all the secrets and stuff. WELCOME TO CAMP!(Alleged) TIMECODES0:00 Intro1:35 Julian Dorey welcome2:56 Julian’s take on the CIA6:50 Newsletter Announcement7:25 History of the CIA...

The government secretly places a strange experimental substance in your drink just to see what happens. Potentially resulting in psychosis or even worse. Or maybe they hire these guys to work on a space program and send people to the moon. Or maybe they even plan harmful acts against their own citizens to justify a war with a hostile country. Now, I know these seem absolutely crazy, but actually, they're not. These are real operations that the CIA has carried out in its 77-year history. And today, I'm breaking down my favorites. Everything from M.K. Ultra to paperclip, from Northwoods to Mockingbird.

And who better to join me than my dear friend Julian Dory. Together, we are going through all the dirty details about the Central Intelligence Agency's craziest operations to exert control across the globe. And ultimately, to keep us safe. Or something. Anyway, sit back, relax, and welcome to camp. What's up, everybody, and welcome back to Camp Tent Talks. This is the show where I explain the most fascinating and interesting stories from around the planet to my dumbest friends. And today we got a real shithead, all right?

No, I'm joking. This is not one of my dumbest friends. Maybe you're dumb in some ways, but on this specific topic, I don't think you're dumb. I think you're actually very well informed, which is why I invited my dear friend Julian Dory. Thanks for having me, brother. Just go sit with me in the campsite, do some peyote and chat. I've got the craziest CIA operations ever. By the way, this is, it looks sick on camera, but when I'm in here, you did a hell of a job.

Oh, thanks. It's unbelievable. Thank you. And it's so unique, too, which is hard to do these days because everyone has a podcast, but you're doing well. And thanks for coming out to the woods of Western Kansas. Yeah, it's basic. Brooklyn, I always joked. Brooklyn's like another country getting over there.

You know, it's a long journey from Hoboken. I thought about taking a plane, but, you know, we made it by train. Yeah, I keep on telling people that we're just in different woods. The audience still thinks that we're, I think they think we're in Nova Scotia. Well, there's a couple trees here. Yeah, yeah. It passes. Yeah.

I was talking to you recently just about some random CIA stuff as I was doing some research on this specific topic. And you were just hitting me with some facts and data. And I was like, dude, you're blowing my mind right. I was like, you were just, you were just rifling off. You said Langley? You said, you said, I was like, this guy knows about Langley, dude. This guy knows some CIA shit. But I was like, all right, whenever I talk about the craziest CIA operations ever, I think I need to do it with Julian.

All right, I'm honored. What's your take on the CIA? You like them? Good old boys over there at the agency? No, I'm very, and I frustrated a lot of people online on a lot of topics with this. you know, in my life I don't have really anything figured out. The only thing that I've, for the last like five or six years, actually felt some form of like slight zen on is the fact that when we look at any ideological or,

I don't know, types of situations that involve opinions or organizations or people or different ideas, the answer usually lies somewhere right in the middle. And like to make it a completely unoriginal point, you know, you look at the universal laws of physics. One of them is for every action. There's an equal but opposite reaction to set equilibrium. So you get Republicans. You get Democrats. Let's get here.

Right. So I think it's no different with something like the CIA. You have two camps. You have people who don't care and assume like, oh, CIA is great. And then you have people are like, I'm getting rid of every three letter agency, yada, yada, yada. And I hear you. Because like, let's talk about it. it like we'll get into it today but things like mk ultra things like operation mongoose things like

oh i don't know blowing off a fucking president of shod in 1963 like these are not good things these are not good people who were involved with those decisions but it's a large organization that also you know i might even use the word unfortunately to be fair and respectful also to people who like don't like a lot of things they do they unfortunately do need to exist because the world is a very fucked up place. And it is a, this is the wrong way to put it, but just go with this for a minute. It's like a prisoner's dilemma type world where like, if you don't do it, someone else is. Yeah. Which is a very slippery slope. And that's why I appreciate guys like Edward Snowden a lot. You know, any of the CIA guys we talk with, they're like, yo, that guy. I'm like, yo, he had a

tough decision there. And I understand why he did what he did. And I understand why you don't like them if you were like in CIA or DIA or any of those. But like think about the slippery slope of the Constitution that was being ripped away and the fact that no one in the chain of command would do anything about it. Someone had to. Right. So it's a very nuanced topic. But I think it's also important that the things that either have been discovered with very good evidence or things that have been forced to be admitted through, you know, documents have been released publicly, like, you know, an MK Ultra and shit like that. You know, I think it's important to talk about those because you don't want to see shit like that happen.

I think that's, I think that can go way too far. So I have a very, very all over the place opinion with CIA, but I'm neither a, like, major supporter or a major detractor. I'm a let's talk about it and I'm a fucking podcaster in an armchair. So let's not. take that seriously as you will. The devil you know is better, I guess. That's a good way to put it.

In a way. I also, I wonder so much about the CIA if like, you know, how much of the things that we're going to discuss today are still going on, which we can get into case by case. But I do wonder if the current CIA is marred by the antics of like the, you know, Soviet antagonizer, you know, 60s, 70s CIA. You know what I'm saying? Yes. I'm curious, like it seemed, because a lot of the stuff we're going to talk about is from that time, but also that's where a lot of the documents are declassified. So it's difficult to really say if it's still happening in the same capacity.

But I asked Boostamonte, that's when I talked to him. I was like, you know, do you think, do you think the current CIA is marred by that type of, you know, the history? No. He's like, no, man, ever since 9-11, it's been really hard. Okay, Andy. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I have exciting news. have a newsletter. Yes. Hold your applause. It's okay. It's called Smore Camp. I'm telling you, I do

research for this show. A ton of hours a week. I love doing it. But sometimes we have facts that can't make the show. Sometimes they're too crazy for the regular episodes. So we've included them in our newsletter a couple times a week. You're going to be getting a this day in history fact. It's absolutely mind-blowing. It'll make you the most interesting person in the room that you walk into. You can get it from this QR code on the screen right here or the link in the description. Check it out. Smoor Camp. Now let's get back to the show. First, let's just talk a little bit

about the history of the CIA. It's a fascinating little thing. End of World War II. British intelligence kind of won the war, as people say. British intelligence, American manufacturing in Russian blood.

That's a good way to put it. Fun little quotes that I've heard. I like that. Is that original? Is that Mark Gagnon, TM? If you liked it, then yes, I thought of it. Another quote I came up with,

Great Art is Steel. Have you ever heard that quote? Yeah, of course. That's a quote I invented. Yeah, that one's not yours. That is mine. I stole it. The U.S.

government wanted to create an intelligence gathering organization much like MI6, and so this led to the creation of the Office of Strategic Services, the OSS, 1942. The idea for a centralized intelligence organization was proposed by a guy named General William Donovan. Yep, Billy Donovan. Old Billy D. He seemed like a good guy.

I don't really know much about him, but... It's funny you say that. That's a guy I want to... I mean, I've always known about... him because he comes up in a lot of stuff, but I'm a lot more well-read, if you will, unlike the Allen Dulles of the world. Donovan is a guy I really want to go back and try to chart. I know if you look at the 2006 movie, The Good Shepherd, Robert De Niro's character is supposedly...

Billy Donovan. Yes. They names him something different, but it's inspired by it. Oh, that's interesting. He basically was like, he wanted to have like a centralized intelligence agent. Like that was like his kind of brainchild. And I think he went back and forth with Truman because Truman didn't really want to create as it was known like a new modern global Gestapo. Well, that's, you mind if we go back for a sec?

Yeah. So that's true. But one thing I learned recently, I had read this book called The Splendid in the Vial by Eric Larson, which is about May 10th, 1940 to May 10th, 1941, Winston Churchill. and the bombing of Britain, which is one of the most undercover things in history, in my opinion, from World War II. But, like, after that, it really sent me down the research trail of what was happening in America in the late 30s and early 40s because, you know, you talk about Truman, you know, and there being an argument there about one to set that up. That's all true. But even long before that, the United States between, you would think after World War I, when everyone got involved and we had to come in, you'd think like they'd have. have this huge emphasis on intelligence, but they didn't. They didn't want to be like a part of that.

And it's interesting because what I learned through the Splendid and the Vial and then on some other things I read after that, that really blew my mind is that and think about the parallels today with this. The United States in the late 1930s and early 1940s before midday on December 7th, 1941, was rabidly isolationist. rabidly isolationist, which affected everything all the way up to. We don't even need a spy agency. And so you had our great ally, Britain, our greatest ally, getting the shit bombed out of them by a country that was taking over all of Europe with a madman at the front, who by the way, you know, was sympathized with by some people who later formed the CIA. We'll get there. But like, you know, Winston Churchill, I mean, he couldn't even get a used condom from the United States. United States. It's not because FDR didn't want to send him help. FDR was politically

hamstrung because he had a, you know, the bombing starts in like May 1940. He gets crazy over the summer. Churchill's like, baby, I need something. Yeah. So he goes to the U.S. and he knew that they had voted like a year, but they had had this vote that was going to happen in Congress like a year or two before where they had 50 broken ass boats, like broken military boats like junkyard shit and the vote was going to be on do we like blow them up so we can just get rid of this and it never went through but they had these broke ass boats sitting in ports and so Churchill's like that's better than nothing so he's like he calls up fDR like yo can you send me that we'll make something out of it and fDR is like actually no we're going to have to

figure this out he couldn't even send him broken boats because he's like i have an election on November 5th, 1940, my Republican opponent is rabidly isolationist hitting me on that. I got to change all the language to make sure I'm isolationist too. And if I give you 50 boats, even if they're broken as fuck, like, it's going to be seen as like I'm a warmonger getting involved in a proxy war. Which is so crazy. Crazy. To think today, like everyone gets money from America. Dude. If you got a proxy war going on, you can get some bucks. But they couldn't back then. So like, this was more than just like a spy agency. fucked up time. This was like a, it was a down cultural thing and it took something like Pearl Harbor.

We heard this one before to get everyone suddenly like, God damn it, let's go over there. Just flipped on a dime. We can come back to that later, but I'll shut up now. So they start setting up an actual intelligence arm. So they create this little thing called the Central Intelligence Group. Have you heard of this? The CIG. This is basically like an operational extension of the national intelligence authority, and that is the direct predecessor of the CIA. So then July 26, 1947, Harry S. Truman signs the National Security Act into law. Do you know why he had to do it this time? Right after World War II, what was going on around the world?

What was a threat that America was facing that they were real concerned about? Communism. Hell yeah, baby. The Soviets were fucking around, and they were freaking us out. So they had to make an actual CIA. They had to get the boys locked in. They had to get the Langley crew. So, sure, in the meantime, they do some coups.

They overthrow some governments. They do some crazy tests. They do some wacky things. But fortunately, they don't do that stuff anymore. That's done. Allegedly. No, no, no, no. I got a guy coming in this fall that might have another thing to say about that.

I'm trying to get on CIA payroll big time. I really am. Hang with Andy. Maybe he'll make you an offer at some point. I'm trying, bro. I would really love it. A lot of the comments on my most recent episode, by the way, which thank you, everyone, that watched the most recent episode that I did with my friend John about September 11th.

A lot of comments about people calling me a CIA shill. Appreciate that. It's apart for the course. And maybe it's true. I would love, I really would love it. I'm trying to get paid from anyone. If it's the CIA, I'll get money from the Russians. I'll take money from anyone.

If there's any governments I want to sponsor me, I am completely open and available. You can call up Tim Poole. He'll tell you. I'll give you the 1-800 number. Come on, guys. Who's my fucking... Who's putting ads on this show? This show is brought to you by the KGB.

That's not a thing anymore. The FSB. That's right. This is brought to you by the FSB. Okay? So yeah, we're going to talk about CIA operations. That's just a little background. Basically, I didn't realize that a lot of the CIA shit that was popping off,

like all the famous ones that we know about, was indirect correspondence with what they thought the Soviets were doing. As we're told. Wait, can you explain? upon that. So basically like MK Ultra, I remember reading about this as a kid being like, wait, we did like drug induced mind control to try to like control people's brains. No. But a lot of this came sort of as a counter reaction to what they thought the Soviets were doing. So they had gotten intel like, oh, the Soviets are working on a, you know, a specialized

program to control people's brains. And so we need to do something in kind. So that they can't just get a head start running away with this. Right. So. So. In the 50s, they start this thing called MK Ultra. April 13, 1953, this good guy, Alan Dulles, as we know. Great guy. Great guy. His brother was great, too. He's got an airport.

That's his brother. John Foster Dulles. Oh, fair. Also a great guy. Yeah, yeah. What did he do? Nothing? He's the secretary of state, you know, fucked around, start a war, 10.

Give him an airport. Yeah. How do I get an airport? Who do I have to kill? How many fucking... Who do you have to fuck? Oh, wow. We're talking.

Now we're talking. That's better than kill us. Yeah, that's better. Alan Dulles gives a speech about the dangers of communism, which he calls a war of the mind. Dulles warned that communism

and the Soviet Union had developed methods of brainwashing that could indoctrine individuals in the United States need to understand and counter these techniques. This led basically to the creation and expansion of MK Ultra. There was other initiatives

that were launched in the 40s, Bluebird and Artichoke, that basically were different operations that did the same exact things, more or less. Bluebird aimed to train subjects through hypnosis and behavioral modification techniques, making it impossible for enemies to extract vital information. Project Artichoke delves into using hypnosis and drugs to coerced individuals

into performing acts like assassinations without conscious thought or hesitation. These projects laid the groundwork for what would become M.K. Ultra. Shout out Lee Harvey Oswald. Yeah. Yeah, what was he doing in Russia in the 50s? What was going on? You know? He was a spy.

It made sense for the profile later. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like they needed the right profile that your CV, if you will. Like, yeah, looks like a shooter in me. Yeah. Called a day. It is crazy that he killed another guy that day.

No one ever talks about that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We all was walking around and like a cop went up to him. It was like, hey, did you kill the president? And he murdered that guy. Yeah. And then, oh, this is great. I mean, Jack Ruby.

mob guy that kills Lee Harvey Oswald. Jolly West is his doctor, bro. Can you explain this story? This is my favorite thing in the world. I can give the beats if you want also. Yeah, I want to make sure I don't fuck up the timeline as I haven't looked at it recently. But after Jack Ruby waxed Lee Harvey Oswald,

he's in. And, you know, Jack Ruby had ties. He was an associate of the mob, had ties all the way up to Chicago and the whole Chicago alpha for years. But he was, he had Jolly West meet with him. And Jolly West's, you can read his profile later, but a long time, you know, CIA related doctor, that kind of thing.

Meet with him for, I don't know how long, but it was like a long time in his cell after this happened and was like, yeah, no, he doesn't remember anything or something like that or like, yeah, no, he totally, I forget the exact details, but it was like, essentially why would, would you let Jolly West in there for however long it was to sit with the most at that point, like curiously wanted as to what the fuck were you doing guy in America who had just basically

destroyed the last evidence we had, allegedly, of that event because we didn't have any leads on, I don't know, the fucking guy down in the sewer who blew his brains out. But, you know, at least one of it, we know I'm comfortable to say Oswald had a gun and was up there and fired a shot. It's just like, he didn't act alone. Like, let's stop with that. You know? No, I think that bullet went through his head, then hit Connolly and then, like, bounced

on the ground or whatever. Yeah. That's what I believe. Yeah. Again, CIA. You sponsor me. But yeah, Jolly West is a wild guy. Apparently, Jack Ruby ends up, like, I think he has like a it's not a mistrial. I think he gets, I think he's appealing his

trial and then dies before he can ever get the appeal. And then also apparently has like some mental decline along the way. Yes, he had, that was part of it. And I think that had to do with like the Jolly West thing. Like, yeah, he's crazy. And he was crazy. And it seems like it's possible for government agencies potentially to make people a little crazy.

Seems to be the case. I would love to have been a fly on the wall in that, in that interrogation room when Jolly West was in there because something tells me something was in the water. Yeah, I think so. Probably fluoride. Officially sanctioned by the CIA in 1953, MK Ultra is one of the agency's most secretive operations, 150 sub-products conducted under various front organizations to hide the CIA's involvement. The programs reach into universities, hospitals, prisons, pharmaceutical companies across the United States and Canada

conducting experiments without attracting public scrutiny. Basically, MK. Ultra, in layman's terms, was effectively giving psychoactive drugs, particularly LSD, Two people, sometimes willingly, but many times unwillingly and unknowingly, effectively to see what their reactions would be to observe, like, how they were behaving. And then furthermore to see if it could be some type of truth serum. And they did this for kind of a while. Yeah, it was over a decade, I think, right? Yeah, it was. Sidney Gottlieb was running it.

Sidney Gottlieb was a man. This is a chemist. He was a central figure in M.K. Ultra. and was referred to as, quote, the black sorcerer for his unorthodox and inhumane methods Gottlieb oversaw many of the programs, experiments, including those involving drugs, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, and psychological manipulation.

Yeah, he was a fascinating guy, man. He was odd. You ever see Danny's old podcast with Stephen Kinzer? No. It was like three and a half years ago, 2021. So Stephen Kinzer is the New York Times reporter who, like, reported on a lot of the MK Ultra, who's been around the block forever.

and like when he talks about Gottlieb and the profile of him in that episode he feels like a Javier Bardem character in a movie where he's evil but has a straight face you know what I mean like like like like it feels like it feels like fucking Stephen Gaggin took some good drugs and got in a room for like two months and wrote up this amazing character or maybe Quentin Tarantino or something and you believe it but it's almost like wait that guy exists and he's really like that he lives. off the beaten path, but he's in the middle of the CIA. He's making weapons that they're trying to kill Castro with.

He's also making fucking drugs that are mind fucking people. What the hell? A lot. Yeah. And he's doing podcasts? And he's like in between a read for like, hello fresh. Like, what the hell? Maybe they invented podcasts at the CIA and that was a long-term mission.

Maybe, bro. Maybe this is a whole sci-op. You're the Maturian podcast candidate. That's right. Central Intelligence Agency. If you're looking for a way to get the most up-to-date information from around the world from your allies and overthrow a democratically elected government, check out at cia.com. This guy got me, was pretty wild. They did a bunch of crazy things.

This is a nice quote from him. His goal was to develop techniques that would, quote, crush the human psyche to the point that it would admit anything. His methods were extreme and bordered on torture. Can you read that again? Crush the. Crush the human psyche to the point that it would admit anything. See, I said that. Crush the human psyche.

Yeah. Destroy. Like he enjoys it. Yeah. Of the bad guys. Of the, oh, are you trying to defend terrorists?

Oh, Julian, that's pretty weird. Oh, that's pretty weird. Some of the other people that might have been victims of it that maybe weren't terrorists. Oh,

oh, it sounds like there's terrorists that you're supporting right now. I mean, look. If he was doing it in Guantanamo, all right. But when you're doing it to normal people, too, which definitely happened. They probably did do it in Guantanamo. They also probably did do it just to some regular prisoners and college students and prostitutes and other people that quote can't fight back. That's right. That is another quote.

But regardless, when a bleeding heart feels something for them. Yeah, I can imagine. The most sympathetic guy I've ever seen. I don't know what you're talking about. Subproject 54. This was Navy's top siege. Top secret, quote, perfect concussion program. This was supposed to use sub-oral frequency blast to erase memory.

The program. Sub-oral frequency blast? What the fuck does that mean? Literally to create micro-concussions using sound waves to make people forget memories. This program was never carried out. That sounds like a predecessor to Havana syndrome. You got to get Polymeropolis in here. Look at that one.

I'll talk to Mark. I know. You've had them on. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah. I never answers my emails, but shit. Yeah, you got to pop down. You got to pop down to Virginia and go grab them.

This might be maybe the most unethical experiment with MK Ultra. I didn't know that they were doing MK. Ultra in Canada. I was unaware of this. I don't know exactly how this works. I need someone smarter than me to figure this shit out. But they were doing this in Canada as well, specifically at McGill University, through a certain Dr. Donald Ewan Cameron. no idea about this.

This is a place called Sub Project 68. This is led by this guy, Dr. Cameron, at the Allen Memorial Institute at McGill University in Montreal. Where's McGill? Montreal. Montreal. French Canadians. Shout out to the boys. You know what I'm saying? I'm French Canadian.

Yeah. I don't know if you guys know that. He's a respected psychiatrist. He used his position to conduct experiments involving, quote, psychic driving and depaturning. Psychic driving involves repetitively playing recorded messages to subjects for hours or even days intending to break down their psyche and reprogram their behavior.

Depattering combines this technique with large doses of electroconvulsive therapy and hallucinogenic drug use to erase the subject's existing personality and memory, effectively reducing them to a blank slate. The consequences of these experiments were devastating. What years? I don't know.

I might just be making this up, to be honest. I think this is like, I think it was like the 50. I can probably figure it out. Yeah, because there were some interesting, it's definitely a different time period, but there was a guy a few years ago who was doing some weird shit with celebrities that it's like, it makes you wonder if it was tied to anything like that. And that was, he was Canadian too.

What are you talking about? The fucking, the Harley Pasternak guy. I don't know. I don't know about that. Yeah, I don't either. Yeah, neither of us do on this state-sponsored podcast We don't know anything about this.

This was 1957. Okay. That's when it started. That's what I'm saying, like predecessor. So, let me tell you about Lyndon McDonald. She was a patient at the Allen Memorial Institute. She was walking in seeking treatment for depression. She was feeling a little sad.

So she was put in a drug-induced coma for 86 days. What the fuck? This is crazy. What drugs? 86 days. and subjected to 100 electroshock therapy sessions. These treatments erased her memory requiring her to relearn basic skills like using the bathroom, similar to a child.

This type of experimentation was not an isolated incident. It was part of a broader pattern of abuse under M.K. Ultra. So that's not great, but, you know, it's not. Casualties is a dice game. You know what I mean? You got to make progress somewhere. Sorry, Linda. During this era, Cameron became known worldwide as the first chairman of the World Psychiatric Association.

So this is the doctor, by the way. he became the president of the American Psychiatric Association and the Canadian Psychiatric Association and he was also a member of the Nuremberg Medical Tribunal from 1946-947. Like the Nuremberg where the trials were? Yeah, apparently they had a medical tribunal to go over like what Mangelay and those guys did.

I'm assuming, yeah. I mean, basically this was the doctor's trial. This was the first of 12 trials for war crimes of high-ranking German officials. and yeah, they were held before military courts, and this guy was a part of them. Simultaneously also putting people in a medical coma. Allegedly?

So he's prosecuting the things that he's then experimenting. Allegedly. Allegedly. And also, who better to know about, you know, gross medical misconduct than a guy doing it himself. Right, yeah. This is how we're able to get the next. Practice makes perfect.

Exactly. We never got Mangalae, by the way. He died in 86 and Burrower. Brazil. Really? Yep. How did he go down there? How did he go?

How did he get down there? Like, they just let him go? The rat lines. Oh, really? You know about the rat lines? Yeah, yeah. I just didn't know that he actually got down there. He got to, I don't know if he started in Brazil, but he ended up in Brazil and he lived there

until 86. His son even visited. And his son, like, didn't like him, but he visited him, I think a couple times while he was alive. And then they figured out, they exhumed his body. He like died. He had some sort of medical event while he was swimming in 86. I think it was 86.

It's not somewhere in there. But they exhumed his body maybe shortly after his death when it was like, oh, this might have been Mangalayan. And then it was. Really? And it's like, how the fuck do you let that guy get away? But also, even if he didn't get away, he wouldn't have, he would have been paperclipped. Mangolin? No. Mangalai wasn't, he didn't do the type of science that they were paperclipping.

Mangalai would have been hung. You ever heard about Unit 731, the Japanese one? Of course. You know what happened to that doctor? No. Fucking nothing. I'm pretty sure. I should double check that.

We did also drop two nukes on them, so there was a little bit of a... So I guess it's a wash. It kind of just comes out in the wash. Yeah, 731. Who was I talking about 731 with recently? shit we were going through that on a podcast oh i think that was with i had john rondy on with uh colonel gads i think we were talking about that crazy shit it's insane if anyone doesn't know about seven through one i could do a whole fucking different episode about this which

you know we're not going to get too deep into but basically it was a uh it was basically a testing facility in japan where they would do like the most bizarre and grotesque and brutal experiments on humans, specifically like Chinese prisoners. And they would do like vivisections where like they would cut people on half alive to like see what would have. It was like insane. One of the doctors that was a part of it, this guy, Shiro Ishi. Pretty brutal dude. Cutting people open, killing people, da da da da da, da, da, allegedly.

There's a little subsection here on his Wikipedia. War crimes immunity. He was arrested by the United States Authority at the end of World War II and was supposed to be thoroughly. interrogated by Soviet authorities. Instead, his team managed to negotiate and receive immunity in 1946 from Japanese war crime prosecution before the Tokyo Tribunal in exchange for their full disclosure. That's fucked. Yeah.

Yeah, I was like halfway joking about the nuclear bomb part. Like, that's fucked that that guy walked. After being granted immunity, she was hired by the U.S. government to lecture American officers at Fort Dietrich on the uses of bioweapons and the findings made by Unit 731. During the Korean War, he traveled to Korea to take part in the U.S. armies alleged biological warfare activities. By 52, he was explicitly named in a statement made by North Korean foreign minister, claiming that he, along with other Japanese bacterial, bacteriological war criminals,

had been involved in systematically spreading large quantities of bacteria, carrying insects by aircraft in order to disseminate contagious diseases over our frontline positions and our rear. Oh, my God. Yeah, I think that's, and I'm totally, totally guessing here, just based on circumstantial evidence of how we saw things play out in the years after the war. Given the publicity of the Nazis and more focus on the individuals as like a brand and what they did there, I would still stand by that if Mangalai had been arrested,

that motherfucker would have been hung. But it's interesting that like the Japanese, it's like they were far enough away out there that's like, ah, the US people will let that one go. Yes. I guess the lesson is if you're going to just like, you know, do experimentation in genocide on hundreds of thousands of people, just write it down. And then they might let you off. Like, just keep, like, keep it on the record and they might not get you. Your dark comedy is so good, bro. I'm just saying. I hope you do this in a lot of your stand-up because you're very good at it.

Unfortunately, I do. Much of the chagrin of all the old people that come to my shoes. Yeah. Well, fuck them. So. They shouldn't be coming to Brooklyn anyway. Yeah, that's true. It's like if you're over 40, get out of here.

Get out of here. Go to Jersey where you belong. Alfred McCoy, he's a writer-researcher. He writes about this guy, Dr. Cameron. Stripped of its bizarre excess, Dr. Cameron's experiments, building upon Donald O. Hebb's earlier breakthrough, laid the scientific foundation for the CIA's two-stage psychological torture method, referring to the first creating a state of disorientation of the subject

and then creating a situation of self-inflicted discomfort in which the disoriented subject can alleviate pain by capitulating. That's allegedly what they do. I don't know. This is an excerpt from an article I read. Where's that article from? I don't know.

Someone can go to it. It's infoor.com. Yeah, it is. It's from Newsmax. It's from Russian media. Oh, that's a great start. That's a great start. Let me tell you about some of the confirmed individuals

that were part of MK Ultra. Okay, I want to hear all about Dr. Frank Olson. You ever heard of this guy? He was in that, you ever seen that Netflix doc, Wormwood? Yes. That is about him. It's about him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

That's the whole, like. It's a good dog. I haven't seen it. I think that's the whole plot, right? He was the guy that was like thrown out the window. What do you mean thrown out the window? He jumped out the window. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, the guy that was sad and then killed himself when he jumped out the window. Right. He, he, yeah. I mean, who would throw... Yeah, who would throw them out? I don't know if you know what you're talking about, okay? He couldn't... He thought he could fly.

He couldn't fly. We're bleeping all that out, all right? Because you're starting to really piss me off with you thinking the CIA does fucked up things. I'm just saying. 1953, Olson attended a CIA retreat where his drink... Again, this is a CIA biochemist. This guy has been involved in the agency for a long time at this point. He goes to a retreat where his drink is secretly spiked with LSD by his colleagues,

including Sidney Gottlie. Apparently, everyone's on LSD. apparently at this little retreat thing. The drug causes severe psychological crisis leading to rapid deterioration of Olson's mental state. Days later, he fell from a hotel window in New York City. It was officially ruled a suicide, but many suspect it was a murder to prevent him

from revealing what he knew about the program. He ended up getting a payout, his family, rather, got a payout from the CIA, which is nice. Seems worth it. Yeah, the dead. A little money for their dead father, husband, son, friend, brother. Being raised without a... Dad is probably worth it.

Christos, make sure we get my air quotes in there. I want to be real clear about that. That cool? Thanks, bro. The audience is primed for sarcasm. Yeah, poor Christos back there. He's got to listen to all this. Exactly.

Yeah, right? It is fucked up. He just gets tromped up every single episode. God damn it. He started this operation as just a good old boy, but now he's been, he had hair when he started. Oh, he did? Isn't that crazy?

He still looked like he had it. You ever heard of Midnight Climax? Yes. This is tacitly connected to MK Ultra. How so? Because basically it was a sub-project of MK Ultra. It was conducted in the 50s and 60s. It was operated out of covert CIA, safe houses in San Francisco and New York City.

The primary aim was to study the effects of LSD on unwitting individuals to understand how the drug might be used for interrogation or mind control. Much of what we know about MK.K. Ultra thus far. So, how do they do it? They hired sex workers to lure unsuspecting. men into the safe houses. Good way to do it. The men believed that they were there for a sexual encounter.

Duh. But unbeknownst to them, they were set up for a psychological experiment. As soon as they arrived, the sex workers would dose their drinks with LST for free. Kind of nice, actually. It seems well trained by Bill Cosby. Yeah, exactly. You put the gel on with the little pill and they fall out. Once the men rode to the influence of LSD CIA agents, hidden behind one-way mirrors,

meticulously observed their reactions. This is like classic CIA fucking vibes. This is great. The agents were particularly interested in how the drug altered their behavior, reduced inhibitions, and affected decision-making processes. The ultimate goal was determined

whether LSD could be a reliable tool in breaking down psychological defenses during interrogations, potentially forcing individuals to reveal secrets or comply with suggestions. Now, you're lifelong, like born and raised in Florida, right? That's correct.

Not born, but raised. Okay. You were born in... Canada? I was born France. Well, let's take a little tangent. You're born in Paris. In Paris. Technically, Versailles. What happened? A little last tango in Paris?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, my parents, they had five kids, and then they went to Paris and had a sixth, and that's where I was born. Wow. And then... Was that an accident or planned shot? They're all accidents. Right. They have seven kids.

You don't plan on seven. You know what I mean? Yeah. You just let it rip, and then menopause tells you want to stop. That's kind of how it goes. But yeah, they had a bunch of kids And then they were like Where's another place

That has a Disney world And then we came to Orlando Wow, great story We only live where Disney worlds are Okay, so but basically you're raised in Florida That's where you're a Florida boy And then you've been in New York for what Like five, six years?

Five years, 2019 You like it? I love it. Yeah, it's great It's my favorite place on us Sometimes the hookers here Will give you LSD Yeah, it's fucking awesome

I'm learning that But I'm saying it because You know, one of the things It's always fascinating me about this place so much is like I love walking through the city and you can walk down any block especially in Manhattan but even you know across Brooklyn Queens whatever and you can you can just look at it and without Googling anything or nothing you can almost guarantee that like some crazy good historical shit happened on this street or people live there and at the same time some crazy

horrible historical things happened on the street so you could be walking on the street and be like oh wow that's the mayor's mansion oh wow that's the mayor's mansion oh wow That building right there that's non-circumpect right across is where Saddam's fucking fucking intelligence with torture people in the basement and fucking leave their bodies there to rot. And this is a real thing. Yeah, yeah. So you look at like this fucking midnight climax shit. Like this could be right next to like Coco Chanel's place.

Exactly. You know what I mean? Like this whole foods actually used to be a CIA black site. That's what I'm saying. It was a black site. Now we're buying fucking oranges and that costs like 30 bucks. Isn't that beautiful? That's New York City.

They call that the circle of life. It really is. It really is. It used to be a site for an. enhanced interrogation is now a daycare. That's right. It's now a Montessori school. Yes.

For kids that go on leashes and walk down the street. It's beautiful. I love the leashes. Oh, that's great. Aren't they fucking... It's hilarious. Oh, my God. You ride your bike through them.

It's great. Red Rover, Red Rover. Anyway, midnight climax deviated from its original purpose. The lack of oversight and the nature led to agents getting involved themselves. This is, what I would give to be a CIA agent in like the 50s. Oh, dude. It had to be a time. I mean, let me tell you.

The atmosphere within the safe houses was described as, quote, party-like. Agents were known to consume alcohol and even participate in drug use alongside the sex workers, blurring the lines between observer and participant. This is pre- Hippie era, too, by the way. This created the hippie era. That's exactly right. The atmosphere was amazing. The people were having a great time.

Many involved in the operation later admitted that it was less about scientific inquiry and more about the thrill of manipulating and observing human behavior in extreme circumstances. Yeah. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I want to tell you about a really fun little game

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lineup. That's right. You don't even need to win. Good news for me. You don't even need to win. Just by playing a $5 lineup, you're going to be getting 50 Buccourneys right in your account so you can keep on playing. Let's get back to the show. Let me tell you about some of the people that were documented to have been involved in the events. Okay. Please. Ken Casey. This is the guy that wrote one, flew over the cuckoo's nest. Oh shit. Really?

He, this is confirmed via Wikipedia, which I trust, is said to have volunteered for MK Ultra experiments during LSD and other psychedelic drugs at veterans at the VA

Hospital in Menlo Park where he was a student at nearby Stanford. Kesee or KC.? I think it's Kesee. I felt like I was thinking out when you said, I thought it was Keezy,

but I think it's Keezy. I mean, who the fuck is? No, I'm 90% sure now that you're saying it's Keezy, we're going to edit that out, okay, by No, leave it. Christos, we're good. No, you don't sound dumb, dude.

No, you don't sound dumb. The audience is the thing I'm a dumb guy. I'm from Jersey. It's already, you have a good foil here. That's a good point. That's fair. His experience is while under LSD inspired him to promote the drug outside of the context of the MK Ultra experiments, which influenced the early development of hippie culture. There it is. Let me tell you about Robert Hunter. He was a lyricist, songwriter, and poet, best known for his association with Jerry Garcia and The Grateful Dead.

Of course he was, because they were a mind control experiment themselves. Literally. Hunter was said to be an early volunteer of MK Ultra test subject at Stanford. The Stanford test subjects were paid to take LSD psilocybin and mescaline, and reported on their experiences. These experiences were creatively formative for Hunter. Here's a nice little quote. Sit back, picture herself swooping up a shell of purple with foam crests of crystal drops soft nigh. They fall into the sea of morning.

creep very softly missed. I don't know what the fuck that means, but that's something... That's something related to his fucking drug experience. Let's not get demonetized. You might want to get rid of that one. Here's some alleged subjects. These are people that are not confirmed.

Not confirmed. Boston mobster Whitey Bulger. I've heard about this one. Alleged to have been subjected to weekly injections of LSD and subsequent testing while in prison in Atlanta, 57. Ted Kaczynski, American domestic terrorists known as the Unabomber, was said to be

the subject of voluntary psychological study while some sources say that he was a part of MK Ultra. Lawrence Teeter, the attorney for Sirhan Sir Han, believed that Sir Han was operating under MK Ultra mind control techniques when he assassinated Robert F. Kennedy. Not

my claim. When did he say that? Was he saying that while he was at the beginning when he was actively defending him or later? I'm assuming. But I don't think any of the MK Ultra stuff got declassified until like the 80s. I mean, because you know RFK is like, well, I don't believe that Seraon killed my father. There was actually, if you look behind him, there was a CIA agent that took him out. And they hit that from the public because he was on MK Ultra.

Oh, he says MK Ultra. I don't think he says MK Ultra, but he's basically implying that like, I'm not saying he's wrong. I'm just saying. Like, it's interesting that, like, I mean, think about that. How perfect is it? A guy named Seerhan Seerhan. His mom couldn't even give him a name that was, like, different than his last. Like, it's like this, it's like this perfectly little placed chip in there.

Like, yeah, no, he just, yeah, he walked in there, blew him away, and now we'll put him in prison and call it a day. Yeah, it's a little weird. RFK broke it down for us on, on flagrant, like, you know, all the weird things about the assassination. And you're like, huh, that is interesting. What do you think of that guy? Of RFK? Yeah. I quite liked talking to him, to be honest with you.

I actually really enjoyed hanging with him. He's like a very sweet dude. Seems fascinating. Yeah, I mean, he's a Kennedy. Like, there's an airport named after him. There's a lot more in airport named after him, Mark. We've talked about people that have airports named after him. They typically have pretty crazy lives.

Yes. You know what I mean? So, yeah, he's lived a fascinating life. I think, like, his early work, even on, you know, like, cleaning up the Hudson and, like, all the ecological stuff was, like, awesome, environmental stuff was crazy. And, uh, been through a lot in his life, too. Yeah, it's insane. Like from a, as a human, you know, because it's easy to, you know, kind of put on a different

level, like a Kennedy or something. It's like, oh, you're a fucking Kennedy. But like, you know, you're a human being. And it's a lot of, you had a lot of trauma in his life, that guy. Yeah, it's insane. It's because his father gets assassinated. His uncle gets assassinated. Yeah.

Like, it's, it's, like, very few people, I think can even. Drugs and later. Yeah. Yeah, he was an addict for a while. But yeah, I don't think anyone can really commiserate to the level that what his life was. I think it's kind of a solo journey. Yeah. But yeah, I quite liked him.

I thought he was very affable and that's what you got. Yeah. I just, in general, kind of draw a hard line where I'm like, I also just don't trust any politician. I'm with you. So the second becomes a politician, I'm like, all right, I see we're playing a game here. You know what I mean? Everyone's got a politic in their own way. But as a dude.

Could you see that, like, turn on, like, when you're talking? Because you're talking with him, you guys had him on for like three hours. He's sitting there. He's given personal stories, does a lot of personal stuff. But then there is like the campaign kind of stuff. Could you see that like that switch happened where it's like, oh, there it is. Because you're sitting right next to him, like, looking out. I mean, not really.

Like you can see it with most politicians where like, oh, now they're going into talking points. But that is just like what you do as a politician. It's like, hey, when you go on the platform and someone ask you about X, make sure you talk about Y. Right. I mean. So you can see like, oh, this is a rehearsed line that this person's using. But every politician is the same thing. So you notice it.

But it's, you know, I think anyone that watches can kind of notice. But there was nothing from like on air to offer. He was like the sweetest, nicest guy to be honest. And also kind of kind of diesel. Oh, yeah, he's big. You feel a shoulder like, dude, you fucking jacks? Yeah. Yeah.

I want to know what Starroids is using. Yeah, I think it's good shit. I think it's bear blood, dude. That's what he did. That's why he killed that bear. He had to get some fucking. Let me tell you about another MK Ultra guy. Please, Charles Manson.

Allegedly. Chaos, Tom O'Neill. Let's go, baby. Yeah, exactly. Tom O'Neill wrote a wonderful book. It's one of the greatest podcast ever, by the way, that Joe Rogan, April 2020, Tom O'Neill episode? Yeah.

I think I listened to that 10 times back then. Yeah, it's insane. I had when I was building the podcast. I just played it in the background. Like, I can't believe this is happening. Yeah. I mean, it's legendary. And, yeah, basically, it's alleged that Manson took part in drug-induced psychological experiments run

by the federal government. Alleged. Allegedly. I don't think they would do that, but allegedly. Yeah, I mean. Pretty wild. M.K. Ultra. I don't know.

What do you make of it, Mr. Dory? Well, when we were opening this talking about CIA, I cited that one saying, like, I think things like this take it way too far. Now, let's play the evil devil's advocate on this kind of stuff. Okay? And let's look at it like some of these people look at it. I'm not saying this is right. I'm an emotional guy. I don't have the ability to look at things this way and be in that world.

But let's say you have a nation of, what do we have, 335 million people in this country? Is that right, Chris does? Okay, yeah. So, you know, if you pluck 100 people for something and it's like, wow, it's really bad. But you think that, and I'm not saying MK. Ultra could do this, but you think that this mission you're doing could save a hundred million people from nuclear war. Do the ends justify the means? In the words of Brad Pitt and Gloria's best, I'd take that deal.

Right? You know, but I could never, this is why I could never ever do a job like they have to do in the intelligence agencies. I always talk with my intelligence people about this because I'm like, I'm not being disrespectful to their ability to do this, but they have the ability to be very black and white on shit and logical. I am an emotional brain person first. Yeah. Like I'm a very empathetic human. So I can break this down from a desk after it happens and be like, oh, this is how they saw it. But if you're really doing a trolley problem? No, no, no. Hey, pull the lever and kill one person instead of

three. Nope. You're like, I don't want to pull it at all. I always talked about like the psychology, what the CIA wants, you know, I've had on boost six times. I had on Jim Lawler, who's a guy you should probably talk to. He's. interesting to sit across from. But like we get, we've gotten deep into the psychology on a lot of episodes. And like the way I've always taken it is that essentially the CIA, imagine like you have a candidate coming in and, you know, some high level CIA spooky guy is running this, you know, candidates interview.

And they walk the candidate into a room with one way glass and there's two. two one-way glasses and a wall in between. And in one room, there's 50 people screaming and crying, you know, hitting their hands against the wall. And the other room, there's 100 people screaming and crying, hitting their hands against the wall. And the interviewer pulls out a red button. And he says to the CIA candidate, no matter what, one of these rooms is going to blow up. You have to decide which one's going to blow up. And you have 15 minutes to decide. Because in 15 minutes, you know, we choose which one blows up. Who are you going to blow up? The CIA wants a candidate that before that question's even done being asked, they already hit it and hit the 50 person

room and turn to the fucking interviewer and say, wow, I save 50 lives. Because they saved 100 people and let the 50 go and didn't feel anything about those people. I can't do that. Yeah, I'm not built like that. I'm not built like that. And am I grateful that there are people built like that? Maybe. It's just a wild thing. Yeah, I mean, look, it's like the world is a nasty place in some ways. It's a beautiful place in a lot of ways. Like, this is, I talk with Andy offline about this all the time. He's like, human beings are not good.

They're evil. Yeah, yeah, they're evil. They're horrible. I'm like, listen, I know why you say that because you have only ever seen, like, that was your life. You saw the worst of the worst. And that was his life even before being in the CIA. And it's like, I get your bias there. But like there are a lot of amazing beautiful people on this earth. And I know a lot of them too. And I know a lot of people who want to do good. Are we flawed? Do we do fucked up things when people aren't looking? Yes, we all have that. But the concept that like everyone's evil or predisposed that is ridiculous to me. That said, saying that across an eight billion person population, there is not a some sort of, you know, large mathematical part of that, that, you know, a piece of it that involves people that are not.

necessarily good. If you don't believe that that's true, you're living in fucking la-la land. So, you know, among those people that aren't good, it's not just a regular criminal who goes and fuck shit up in society. It's also people that want to do things internationally towards other countries or towards other people on the basis of who they are, their background, their race, their fucking, where their borders are, which is just a story that we write on a map by a bunch of dudes that said, this is where it is. You know what I mean? It's a wild concept to think about. Across 8 billion people. Do you think that there's any of them that can remotely view a target non-localized consciousness?

Well, I've only ever lived between my two years, so I can't tell you how other people's basal ganglia or whatever it is works. But based on just my opinions of things that I have heard through third-party content that I have nothing to do with, through people I've talked with off the record, that is also third-party because it's not like I'm there. you know, I have a strong feeling that there are some people who have an ability to do things that don't make sense. Now we're talking. And we're talking about Project Stargate. All right. This is technically not really a CIA, but CIA basically got access to all the files and said it was bullshit at the end. So I'm including it.

Please. I really like it. Project Stargate was a secret U.S. Army unit established in 77 at Fort Meade in Maryland. Also, let the record show. basically Ray when MK Ultra ended, Stargate started. What a coincidence. I don't know if it is, probably not. It's different government sex.

I don't know. Apparently also all the MK Ultra stuff leaked because of Watergate. Oh, please, please explain that. I don't remember this. To my knowledge, again, someone else will have to fucking look at the site. Wait, like the Church Commission after that? Exactly. Church Commission afterwards.

And the CIA director at the time was like, destroy everything related to MK. Ultra. which is why there's so many different gaps and like not a lot of rumor and conspiracy has about it with M-Kulture because so much the documentation was destroyed because the ECAI director at the time was like get rid of all this shit and then the church committee

uncovered a lot of it and then became worldwide news Stargate started 77 also at Stanford a lot of shit at Stanford a lot of it was done using Stanford research institution

what's Huberman doing out that. Stare at the sun. I'm like, all right, what else is going on? Yeah, next time you bring them in on Flagrin, just lock the doors. I want to come in and shine a light in his face. See what's happening. What's going on, dude?

I would listen to anything that guy says. He's like, hey, do LSD every morning, stare at the sun and try to remove you, I'd be like, you got it. Whatever you need for the country. Let's do it. If we get Rosalie in here for you, you got to ask him about Huberman. That's all I'll say. That's great.

Ominous? No, no, it's not ominous. It's just funny. The project and its precursors and sister projects originally went by various code names. Gondola Wish, Stargate, Grill Flame, Center Lane, Project CF, Sunstreak, Scanate. Until 1991, they were consolidated and rechristened as the Stargate Project. And it was terminated and declassified 1995. After the CIA concluded that it was never useful and it was never used in any intelligence operation.

Information provided by the program was vague. and included irrelevant and erroneous data. And they were suspicious of interjudge reliability. So nothing to see you here. But if you're curious, in 1970, intelligence sources believed that the Soviet Union was spending millions and millions of dollars annually on psychotronic research.

Psychotronic. Yes. Sounds like a Transformers movie. Yeah, it does. A little bit, right? We're shy of a little bit, get a minute here. The response, in response to claims that the Soviet had these programs, the CIA initiated funding for a new program known as scan it. Scan by coordinate is sort of the abbreviated name in the same year.

Remote viewing research began in 1972 at Stanford Research Institute in Menlo Park. Do we know some of the Stanford experts involved at the front of that? Absolutely. How about this guy, Russell Targ and Harold Puthoff? Wait. How put off? That's what I said. Yeah.

What? Yeah, interesting. Please continue. These proponents of the research said that the minimum accuracy rate of 65% was required by the clients and they often were exceeded in later experiments. Yeah, Jesse Michaels, who I just had in on the podcast, he did a pretty cool sit down with how put off and Jesse's friend Eric Weinstein. And put off is an interesting character.

I got to do more work on him. but like, you know, he was like a Scientologist during this time, too, later left, but he's been involved in a lot of things. He ended up finding to the stars. I believe he was one of them, yeah. Yeah, he ended up getting involved in UFOology, I think. Well, yeah, he's definitely involved in UFOology. But I think he was one of the co-founders. Yeah, it goes back farther, though, right?

Like, he was looking at that. I might be making this up. I feel like he was looking at that in like the 80s or something. Oh, yeah. I mean, I can't imagine. I don't know. Let's check that, Christos. I don't want to make shit up.

Thanks, bro. One of the project's successes, allegedly, was the location of a lost Soviet spy plane in 1976 by Rosemary Smith, a young administrative assistant recruited by the project director Dale Graff. Also involved in this was a guy named Pat Price. That sounds familiar. He's like pretty well known within like this remote viewing world. Okay. Working with maps and photographs provided to him by the CIA, Price claimed to have been able to retrieve information from facilities behind Soviet lines. He's probably the best, he's probably best known for his sketches of cranes and gantries,

which appear to conform to CIA intelligence photographs. At the time, the CIA took his claims extremely seriously. He ended up dying of mysterious circumstances. Of course he did. That's how they all go. I actually don't know the circumstances I've meant to look this up before. It never says he died peacefully in his sleep. It's like, no, he died under mysterious circumstances.

How'd he go? Well, he couldn't fly. Yeah. Yeah. Unless you like, you know, do brutal experiments on millions of innocent people, then you die in your sleep. Then you have a nice death. Yeah. Apparently, and this comes from the Y files, which I love.

He's really good. Oh, I love watching them. I like the fish, too. I don't know why. I like the fish. It's a good touch. The fish is nice. Apparently, there's a KGB spy that defected and claimed that he was sent to America to kill.

a psychic in Vegas and that's exactly what he did using poison. What did he use? The KGB spy? Yeah. It says he used poison. It just says poison.

That's what the Wi-Files said. Okay. But they weren't able to ever find the KGB defector's name so a store of was never corroborated. This is sort of a rumor or a myth, so to speak. But we enjoy myths here. Yes, myths are fun.

Camp Gagnon. Ingo Swan, you ever heard of this person? Another legendary remote viewer. confirmed the rings of Jupiter before they were known using remote viewing. Tell me. Yeah. Yeah, it confirmed the drops of Jupiter.

Yeah, this remote viewer that was a part of the program knew that there were rings on Jupiter before scientists. And they were like, oh, that's pretty weird. Unless he was told about it and that was a plant. That's the other thing where it's possible. So apparently Uri Geller, you ever heard of this guy? Oh, have I heard of Erie Geller? Also a part of it.

Oh, yeah. And some people believe that he was just so good at magic and so good at intuition that he was able to trick the researchers. This is what the allegation is. He's a mysterious guy. So I'm not writing anything off with him. That's a fascinating character. Awesome magician, though. Yes.

That much we can say. I remember, and this was him, but I remember when Michael Jackson died. I don't know. This always rings in my head back in 2009, July. Uri Geller, I'm pretty sure it was Uri Geller, was interviewed, you know, when they're doing all the memorials and shit like that. And he had been good friends with Michael Jackson. And he told a story about a time where he hypnotized him. And it was while the whole cases against him were going on involving.

He hypnotized him. Might need to bleep that word, Christos. But he hypnotized him and he couldn't help himself. He wanted to find that. out if Michael really did this stuff. And so he had Michael like underneath. And he asked him, he said, have you ever done anything inappropriate little boys? And Michael was like, no, why would I ever do that?

No, worry. I've never been able to get that out of my head, whether or not that was real or, you know, writing it off afterwards trying to like defend his friend or something like that. But he has a lot of, like, you ever hear Sarpati talk about him with Danny? Oh, Aregella. You don't know where we golla? It just goes off, but it's fucking great. I knew him as a magician.

I was obsessed with magic. Yeah. So I, like, would see, like, oh. That doesn't surprise me. Oh, I loved magic. I love magic to this day. I was doing magic tricks at a sushi restaurant yesterday. Yeah.

12 hours ago. I was doing magic. Oh, I saw your story, yeah. I love magic. And so I knew this guy, Irrigeller. I was like, oh, this guy is awesome. And then I'm reading the fucking Stargate shit. I was like, he's a psychic?

I was like, what the hell? There he is. But yeah, so apparently some of these people know stuff. Ingo Swan also said that there were mountains on Jupiter, which as a giant gas planet isn't possible. So 50-50 on Jupiter with Ingo-Swan. Again, I don't know what to make of remote viewing. If you go on the remote viewing subreddit, you'll find 75,000 people that talk about, oh, yeah, I'm able to remote view and I do this. And you can put a cottonball on my house and I know exactly where it is.

It seems crazy to me, but also crazy things happen. and part of me thinks that consciousness is not localized to our brain. So is it possible someone can tap in to some type of non-local intelligence, non-local consciousness to understand where things are outside of their minds? I'm not closed off to the idea. I'll say this and I'm not going to, I'll tell you off camera, like maybe a couple more details. But, you know, with boostamante, I'm always, I mean, that poor guy, I'm always busting his balls off camera and on camera about like, yeah, you're really out of the CIA.

So sometimes like when he'll tell me shit, it almost feels like, all right, stop. Like I see right through this. But when we were in Florida last year doing round two of Fed Fest with him and Jim the Oreo on Danny Jones podcast, we got Jim, Andy and I got an Airbnb right next to Danny's house. So we were just having a fun weekend. And the last night, we were just literally ripping Stokes around the pool in the back. backyard and Andy started talking about some of the remote viewing stuff. And he was mentioning some people that he had had access to. And, you know, he's always like a skeptic on anything that's like even slightly hokey, like to the point that it's like, all right, shut the fuck up, bro. Like, you can't write off every single thing. So this really got my attention. But he got like not emotional, but very serious about one person in particular that he had had access to some of, the some of the tools they used to like measure these things to determine the accuracy. And it was clear to me that he was, he was very convinced based on the data.

I'm not just convinced like he would confirm it by data that, you know, the individual he had had had access to really could do this stuff. Wow. That real. And he was different than regular, you know, just like, yeah, I'm Andy. Here to go. He was more like like, yeah. man, it was a real deal.

That's crazy. And, you know, you're still a CIA guy, so it's like, do you believe him? Do you not believe him? I struggle with that sometimes on stuff, but that one felt a little different. Like, it felt like the guard was down. Crazy. Yeah. For anyone that doesn't know, remote viewing is effectively being able to see things or interpret, you know, places, objects,

without actually being there potentially across a room, across the country, across the planet. And basically, you know, the U.S. government is alleged have done this with Stargate project that you give someone some coordinates and you say, and they close their eyes, either with tape, and sometimes they'll use music, and they'll basically say, okay, go and tell us

what you see at these coordinates. Yeah. And with, you know, depending on who you ask, if you ask the CIA, inconclusive, the efficacy, of these types of experiments. But effectively, some people believe that they're able to effectively see what's behind these coordinates and they're able to look at, you know, a power plant, a nuclear facility.

They're able to see things that you wouldn't be able to see on some type of satellite or radar, which is obviously invaluable to any type of government or intelligence collecting agency. If this is true, do you think that throughout human history, when we've had various profits or like so so considered divine figures. Maybe even like including Jesus. Put everyone on the table. You think it's possible that some of these people maybe had a similar, if this is

true, a similar wavelength of like remote viewing that allowed them to do things that were kind of not of this earth. I'm kind of one of these guys. You ever heard of Jacques Valet? Have I heard of shock? I'm trying to get shock in. The dream, right? Yeah.

He was on Rogan a couple of times. once ago. Yeah, with James Fox. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. He's, I kind of, I'm reading his books, his book right now, letters from Magonia, Magonia.

Yep. And I kind of ascribe to his general thesis that like all of these things are sort of the same phenomena of the consciousness that like aliens and angels and demons and all these things are kind of the same thing. And there's some type of interaction with our consciousness on like. some kind of like interdimensional level. How that plays out, I have no fucking idea. And I think Removing is probably a part of that in some way,

that you're tapping into this collective consciousness that exists outside of our brains that I think is like somewhat demonstrable through like metaphysical experiments like the double slit, that our consciousness is actually affecting the way the light is moving through two slits. Kind of, to me, effectively showing that this consciousness is not existing only within our brains but also outside of our brains and potentially in some type of shared format so with that being said i think almost certainly divine beings especially someone that's like you know i would consider myself religious in some capacity um yeah i think there's

definitely like if is it remote viewing is it you know divine inspiration like is that the way that uh people see visions like let's say you know pick your religion that profit of that faith has a divine apparition, does it come through the, you know, through the form of remote viewing? And is that what people are tapping into? You know what I'm saying? Or an untapped, like, form of consciousness, too. Yeah, absolutely. So I don't think it's crazy to answer your question.

I do think it's possible that there's a, you know, maybe a religious element to this kind of thing. I mean, meditation is almost certainly religious. Look at Buddhism and Hinduism. It's like integral to the faith. And I think meditation is absolutely tapping into, you know, in order to promote view, you basically have to meditate. I think that's fair to say. So, yeah, I think it's definitely part of it.

The CIA doesn't think so, though. The CIA thinks this is a bunch of baloney, a bunch of hullabaloo. So they looked at, for example, Yuri Geller, who we mentioned before, the two researchers, Targ and put off. They said that he had psychic powers. They were basically like, hey, this guy is psychic. and then they hired an external judge to basically go through it and they concluded that he was using sleight of hand in order to trick the experimenters.

What a genius. Which either way, fucking awesome. You're like, yo, you trick Stanford research and the thing you were psychic or you actually are psychic. Kudos to you. The tests at the Stanford Research Institute turned out to have been run under conditions

that can be described as chaotic. Few limits were placed. placed on his behavior, and this is Geller, and he was more or less in control of the procedures used to test him. Furthermore, the results of the test were incorrectly reported in Targan-Putoff's papers. That's what is said in Wikipedia. Again, who's to say? 1995, the defense appropriations bill directed that the program be transferred from the DIA to the CIA, and the CIA basically closed it. Closed it. If the CIA says they closed it, they closed it.

That's right. Yeah, they shut the door. No one ever opened it again. Jessica Outs, Mina Shah, and Ray Hyman were the panel that they appointed. Why is that funny? Christos is left, too. Chrystos is drunk. Crizo is a fucking drunk Greek. He doesn't know what the hell's going on. Oh, you're Greek? Skatofat Sal Malaka. Let's go. That's not. That's not even a language. Don't worry about it. He was laughing because that means nothing. Heimann is one of these guys in the panel, and he basically,

said that the whole thing was baloney, nothing came of it, it was completely useless. And yeah, according to Air, which is the American Institute of Research, they performed review on the project and claimed that no remote viewing report ever provided actionable information for any intelligence operation. What do we make of this? I mean, I make of it the same thing. I make of a lot of things. There's an intelligent intelligence related reason for them to say, yeah, nothing.

to see here, move on, carry on, not letting anyone know about it. I mean, look, you've had things like the Church Commission and all that. You've had these moments where the CIA does something where they actually go too far where they're like, oh, fuck, shit's going to get released. But at the end of the day, these organizations for better or worse, and it can absolutely go for the worse when it comes to the slippery slopes of what they do, they involve people who are there before politicians get there and they stay there after they leave. So they are effectively the root. They're the moss of the government. You ain't getting rid of these motherfuckers and sometimes you don't even notice they're there. And yet they have access to, I mean, they're the people that read in the fucking president. Like, you don't think they could decide what they, what they read the president and on? Like, when you say read in the president, can you put that into regular people terms? They give him intelligence. Right? So. What if there's a segment or segments where they're like, yeah, we're not going to tell them about that, which we know happens. We know those things they don't tell them about.

You know, presidents have tried to get information on stuff and like they can't get there. I mean, they talk about that with UFOs a lot, but there's a lot of other things where they could certainly say that too. There's a great quote from that Obama says where he talks about getting basically like briefed on all like the intelligence stuff when he first gets in the White House. us. And I'm pretty sure as the quote goes, and I'm trying to find it. Hopefully this isn't apocryphal. I think I know what you're talking about. He says, it's good that there's bars on the windows because if there weren't, I might be jumping out. It's a great line. It's just a great line. And it's also, it just adds, it just gives

so much speculation. Like, yo, he probably was just hearing about like foreign policy shit. Yeah. And it was like, wait, what the fuck? Yeah. We're doing what? Yeah. He's like Steve Harvey. What? You telling me what? Bombing who? What the killing Iraq? What the

heck? I mean, he did take over for George W. Bush. That was a long list when he got in there. That's what I'm saying. So it is one of those things

that you hear about and you're like, oh, you heard about everything and you were terrified? Obama, the coolest motherfucker in the world? He listens to Outcast?

Yeah. Like, you're telling me the guy that listens He's bawling with Scotty Pippin that morning. I love that he puts out, to this day, his playlist. Yeah. It's fucking awesome.

I want every world leader to do this. Yeah, playlist. Which basically Osama did. If you look at his hard drive. Oh my gosh. I'm not comparing them. But I'm just saying, if you look at Osama's hard drive, I was just doing the 9-11 episode. So I was looking at it.

He had cars on his hard drive. The Pixar film cars. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, dude, Osama likes cars. I love that you're calling Osama bin Laden, a world leader. He was a world leader. He's the reason that I take my shoes off at the airport. He's probably done more policy than any president.

in the last 20 years. Let's talk about Operation Bongoose, all right? Oh, the mongoose, little Alan Dulles. He's finally rearing his head. This is a classic one, all right? This is a classic. This is basically all the different ways the CIA tried to kill Castro. There were a lot.

There were over 600. Fuck did they not get this guy. Right? Kind of crazy. Kind of crazy. Friendly doesn't know. CIA's covert war with Fidel Castro began with the Bay of Pigs invasion in April, 1961. After Fidel Castro had a successful revolution in 59, he overthrew the U.S. friendly

Batista regime in Cuba. Castro quickly moved to align Cuba with the Soviet Union, nationalizing American-owned businesses, and implementing communist policies. I'm kicking out the mob. Dude, also kicking out the mob. They were running a bunch of casinos making a lot of money. And Castro said, beat it and arrested some of them and then let go some of the people he arrested. Yes. There's a lot about this that's very interesting. And furthermore, the CIA actually hired two mobsters to try to kill Fidel Castro, Giancana and Roselli,

which is outlined actually in a fabulous book turned documentary on Paramount called Mafia Spies. Written by a guy named Thomas Mayer. And Thomas Mayer was actually on this podcast, as well as the Julian Dory Show. Yeah, he'll be coming out a couple weeks, I think. It was an excellent podcast. I really enjoyed talking to him.

Did you enjoy talking to him? Yeah, he can go, man. Oh, yeah. He's just like, go boy. Oh, yeah. That's the nice thing with these authors. It's like, so what happened? He's like, chapter one.

Yeah, nice. From getting the mafia spot. Get the audio book. But it was an awesome episode. He explained how they hired the mob to try to kill Castro, why it didn't work, what happened to these guys, who ended up getting these guys killed and who was really involved with the whole thing. And then furthermore, how Kennedy is associated and how he was a wild boy banging everything

that walked. And probably the mob had a little. a lot of blackmail on him. Oh, yeah. I mean, Kennedy is one of the most ultimate, what's the fucking term I'm looking for? Dog. He's a dog, dude. That's definitely a term.

But I'm saying, like, the reality of him as a guy, which encompasses everything, his personal life all the way to his political ideals and his patriotism, if you will, and stuff like that, he is a mixed bag. the likes of which this country maybe has never seen. I mean, very flawed guy, came from an interesting family, had goodness to him as well, wanted good things for the government,

also was a part of the machine. You know what I? There was so much going on with him. He had a good roster. Marilyn Monroe. He had a great, bro. His Jockey. Oh, dude.

Judy Campbell? Dude. We get into all this. He fuck, Phil. McGuire, too, I think. And Phyllis Diller. I just said another Phyllis. That was like a comedian in the 90s, I think.

He didn't fuck her. I mean, maybe he did. I can't confirm or deny that he did have sex with Phyllis Diller. But more about this story is going to come out on Thursday of this podcast, Camp Gagnon, with my good friend Thomas Mayore. Check out that episode. It's going to be coming out Thursday. Excellent. It might be already out.

If you're listening to this later, if you guys are fucking late to the game. But yeah, basically the CIA tried to kill Castro every which way. It started with this thing called the Bay of Pigs. April 17th, there was a forced invasion where the CIA basically got a bunch of, you know, Cuban expats, so to speak. And they basically laced them up. They were like, hey, you guys are going to go in there. You're going to storm the, you're going to storm the beaches of Cuba.

This is called Operation Zapata. Fourteen hundred Cuban exiles trained in guerrilla war. warfare tactics and secret bases in Guatemala. They landed on the shores and had a bad time. The landing site was poorly chosen. It was swampy terrain. And they also severely underestimated the readiness and strength of Castro's military. And JFK, the disappointment there for the people involved that believe this is the right one, JFK refused to send air support because he was inheriting this operation.

and he felt like it could lead to nuclear war or something if this actually created a war event. And it's crazy because to this day, people who were involved with that situation who are still alive or people who were attached to people who were involved with that situation behind the scenes, I'll just leave it at that, literally call JFK a traitor, which I think is so, and they're usually Cuban. And so they take it very personally. But like, I think that's so short-sighted to say that because the government. guy was genuinely concerned. Not like, yo, we're not sending backup just to not send backup and leave you motherfuckers

hanging out to dry. It's like literally, they are aligned with the Soviet Union who has an entire fucking nuke arsenal. We have a nuke arsenal. And this could start World War III if we even get to World War III because we'll blow up the whole world if someone starts hitting the button. Yeah, this is probably, I mean, basically one of the first time there was a ground invasion on a nuclear superpower by a nuclear superpower.

I never thought of it that way, but yeah, that's a perfect way to put it. It is pretty insane that that happened. And yeah, you're exactly right. Fortunately or unfortunately, President Kennedy, fearing this full-scale war, decided to cancel air support and left the invasion forces vulnerable to airstrikes from Castro's military, which decimated the invaders' supplies, the supply ships and stranded the exiles on the beach. and many of the CIA-backed exiles were captured with some killed in the finding.

Operation Northwoods, the debacle of the Bay of Pigs left the CIA scrambling for alternate strategies, so they developed Operation Northwoods. This was a series of covert false flag operations designed to justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba by fabricating Cuban aggression against the United States. And what were some of the potential false flag missions within that? Let me tell you some of them. Yes. One scheme involved simulating the shooting down of American civilian airliner by Cuban forces.

The CIA planned to use drone aircraft to mimic a real passenger plane making it appear as though it had been attacked by Cuban jets. Another part of the plan included using fake mortar attacks on the U.S. military, blaming them on Cuban operatives. There was a bunch of things that were planning, things like fake hijacking of civilian and military aircraft, stage bombings in major cities like Miami, Washington, D.C., and to sink a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay to simulate Cuban aggression. Let's take a step back if you don't mind. You care?

No, go ahead. So this is what? Like 1961, 1962 when they're doing this? My computer doesn't have Wi-Fi. Right. I'm making all this up. Roughly that area. I don't know.

You know, 20 years before, we were talking at the beginning about the isolationism that America had until Pearl Harbor. One thing that's come up a bunch, it came up with Jesse Fink when I had him in for episode 223 to talk about his book, The Eagle in the Mirror, which in, which is about the MI6's office in Rockefeller Center prior to World War II that was trying to work with Washington, D.C., to get the United States in the war during all this time with the Battle of Britain and all that. And, you know, evidence that he uncovered. And then it's been mentioned, it was mentioned by Colonel Gadsden in episode 233 as well, who had no idea I put out that previous episode. points to the fact that when you really look at this, FDR, there's strong evidence to say FDR knew an attack was going to happen on Pearl Harbor.

And they kind of helped get it across the finish line to make the Japanese want to do it via maybe like covert type missions or, you know, putting information on the wires because they were monitoring the Japanese wires. The MI6 office in Rockefeller Center definitely knew it was going to be going down. according to the evidence. And when you look at it, because America was so isolationist at the time, if we had not gotten into the war, Hitler would have been able to do Operation Barbarossa and focus all on that while he had the rest of Western Europe already locked down. He wouldn't have had to deal with a southern invasion like we ended up bringing to him. Essentially, we're all speaking fucking German right now.

Oh, wow. So when you look at it and you say false flag, because of course we all think that's evil, and it's hard for me to not think that's evil. Like, unfortunately, this had a precedent of being something that worked very well because in the context of history, yeah, if Pearl Harbor doesn't happen, we got a big problem. And it's horrible. A lot of people died that day. But you know what I mean? It's one of those catch-22 type scenarios.

So 20 years later, you see some sort of write-up like this. I mean, they're just going off of things that have worked in the fence. I can't justify a false flag, though. I'll be honest with you. That's where I'm like... That's where you got to draw the line. Yeah. It's fucked up, man.

Not to mention the false flag that also helped Hitler seize power, the burning of the Reichstag. Some people believe that to be a false flag. It was a false flag. So there you go. 100%. So we're fighting false flags with false flags here. Putin got into office because of a false flag, blown up the buildings in 99 in Moscow, starting the second Chechen war.

You're saying the British knew about Pearl Harbor? I'm saying the British and the Americans knew about it. So this was their whole plan, Operation Northwoods, all right? This is a pretty crazy. pretty crazy little scheme they came up with. Yes. And Kennedy rejected it. Despite the CIA's confidence, the plan,

Ophreish Northwoods never moved beyond the planning stage because Kennedy flatly rejected the proposal. He was deeply uncomfortable with the idea of deceiving the American public. We are not going to do that as a country. He's like, I will deceive my wife. I will cheat on her regularly, but I will not deceive the public. And he did not want to engage in acts.

That's where he drew the line. Yeah, exactly. He's like, a lot of this bitch. I'm not lying to all the bitches. That's crazy. He could see this as, he saw this as terrorism against U.S. citizens

and the decision further frustrated many CIA in military who were eager for a more aggressive stance on Cuba. So they said, all right, fuck it. Time for Operation Mungoose. And this is basically where they just went fucking every which way

trying to get this guy out of here. They try to poison his cigars. They tried to poison his shoes. They tried to make his beard hair fall out to try to lose morale. They hired prostitutes and lovers of him to go in and fall in love and yada, y'allot. It's crazy. Did Tom tell you that one story about the one woman they sent there?

And he gave her the gun? He gave her the gun and then she fucked him afterwards and said, I won't kill you. Dude, I have to say, I'm not a Castro guy. Dick game crazy. That was, that was gangster. Shout out Castro's dick game, bro. That was gangster. Yeah, Marita Lorenz.

Yeah, that's it. Pretty wild. apparently the CIA also tried using a hypodermic needle concealed within a pen to kill Castro. These were all designed by Sidney Gottlie. Is that true? Yeah, all these. MK Ultra guy?

Yes, this was his, he designed all these things. All right, like I said, the good with the bad. The needle is extremely fine, ensuring that Castro would not notice its insertion. Basically, it was a needle at the end of a pen. When you click it, it would inject you with a poison that would kill him almost immediately. It was handed to a Cuban official

who was engaged in discussions with the CIA about the assassination plot, but the official was unimpressed with the device. He looked at the pen and was like, this is not going to fucking kill anybody. And then didn't give it to him. Also because that same day, the day that he was supposed to give the pen to Castro

was November 22nd, 1963. Of course it was. That was the day that John F. Kennedy was killed by a lone gunman from a book depository with a magic bullet that also hit a senator from Texas. There's only one guy.

That's right. And the ensuing chaos would basically shift priorities in the CIA with true support for the operation and the pen never made it to Cuba. Ties together like a nice little bow. It's kind of nice, right? Isn't it?

It's beautiful. Happy ending for everybody. You ever gotten JFK, by the way? You know what that is? Sex move? What? Yeah, I heard Christos even go, what the fuck is that?

You've never gotten that? The JFK sex move? Yeah, when you get messy head in the back of a car? Anyway, Operation Mockingbird, all right? That's a new one. This was Operation Mockingbird was a covert CIA program in the 1940s

aimed at manipulating media and public opinion during the Cold War. As tensions between the United States and Soviet Union escalated, the CIA recognized the strategic value of controlling information. Basically, what they were going to do is they were going to win an ideological battle.

They were going to win the hearts and minds of people from around the world. Oh, that's a bit... Whenever you hear hearts and minds, what comes next is real tough. So what they did is they've recruited journalists from some of the most influential media outlets the United States, such as the New York Times, Time Magazine, CBS.

These journalists, often unaware of the broader implications of their actions were co-opted into the CIA's efforts through a combination of financial incentives, exclusive access to information and promises of career advancement. So to be clear, I want to make sure I understand these were all, they were knowingly brought in on this, not like useful idiot, like something's happening good for you and you don't realize it's a part of a greater route. It seems like a mix. Some journalists were directly on the CIA payroll. See, that's fucked up. Others were more subtly influenced through connections and collaborations and, hey, talk about this because it could be good for your career, but nothing direct. This is where, like, obviously journalism today is in a very bad place. What do you mean?

I mean, it's pretty obvious why. And I fully... I listen to tenant media, okay? Oh, that's right. I listen to tenant media and I listen to all of their journalists. And so far, I feel like a lot of the stuff they've been talking about is good. And I think these Ukrainians need to get over it. All right?

These Ukrainians... They are the bad guys. in the war. I agree. I completely agree. And you believe he said that on a video. And he's paid by that. I mean, it's a bad luck. Can you believe that I've been saying it for free? Where's my money? Where the fuck is my check? Putin? Lace me up. Come on, brother. Danny Jones is down in Florida trying to learn Russian right now. It's like 400K for four videos. 400K.

Fucking doxy or whatever the fuck they say. If anyone doesn't know, what the fuck did you just say? Yeah, I think that that was Greek, right? You said Yatsy? Doxy? That's Greek. think, yeah. Spes enough. Spesiva. Same area of the world. Basically, if anyone doesn't know, there's a story that came out that was basically put up

by the DOJ, I think. And they basically disclosed that there were two operatives basically working for state-sponsored Russian media that were funneling money to a media company based in Tennessee, I think in Nashville, called Tenet Media. Right. That has a bunch of influential, fairly right-wing, I think is safe to say. Fairly. I mean, you don't want to, you don't want to malign someone.

I'm not aligning now. I'm just, let's call it. These are very strong, in this case, right-wing individuals. And I don't know if all of them on the roster, I imagine that is the case. Right-wing influencers and media spokespeople. And basically it came out that they were being given money under the guise of a very wealthy billionaire that wanted specific types of content made. you make this kind of content

you put out this I'm very happy and so it seems like these people were deceived it seems like they had no idea that they were just accepting money as a you know as a part of a deal to the tune of 400,000

for four videos a month yeah I mean it's it's careless at at best you know taking that kind of money for you said they were put they were putting it on like their channel like on Tenet. I can't speak exactly to how all of the media was distributed,

but I do know that Tenet's YouTube channel was posting a lot of the content, either in conjunction or on its own. The media that is left or right, depending where you're looking, there are either useful idiots or willing participants, no matter where you look. And that's what's really disappointing about journalism now. Because also when you're talking about media being left or right,

the word journalism actually, really by definition can't be involved because journalism is supposed to be unbiased. Right? So we've jumped the shark on that a long time ago, which is really problematic. And like, you know, there's to be voices on both sides to balance things out,

but like be a commentator. You're not a journalist. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I also hate that people are giving Russia all this credit. Russia didn't invent this. America invented it.

That's right. Operation Mockingboard. That's what matters. They always bite our shit. But let me tell you about Operation Mockingberg. Basically, Operation Mockingbird, kind of like what we've just been talking about with some of these, you know, foreign funding to sort of persuade journalists. They basically got the attention of a bunch of different independent journalists and media outlets.

And basically they would plant stories in reputable media outlets in basically a way to move the narrative. an agenda of the American people. So the stories were crafted to appear as genuine journalism, but they were actually designed to promote the U.S. interests or discredit communist ideas. The agency was skilled at framing news events in ways that would manipulate public perception, emphasizing positive narratives about the U.S.

and downplaying or spinning negative ones. The manipulation was particularly effective during times of crisis, where controlling the narrative could have had a substantial impact on public opinion. Thank God this operation has been stopped. That's not, why is that funny? I'm reading right here, they closed the operation.

Yeah, they closed it. You're on Langlipedia, right? Yeah, exactly. They have closed it, and they don't sponsor this show at all. That's right. Well, you know what? Actually, they do it in smarter ways. Like, the way that, and it's not, let's not just pick on CIA.

this is how all intelligence organizations with any moxie work now. Yeah, they do stuff like this, but they also do it in ways that put the onus on what they then hope are going to be the useful idiots. You know, I've done a couple podcasts with my friend Joby Warwick, who's longtime national security reporter at Washington Post, multiple time Pulitzer winner. And he talked about it. In episode 134, like 50 minutes into that one, he really was honest about how difficult it is to go in the conference. room when they've been working on a story for a long time and they're about to publish and the CIA or intelligence or people in the government call them up and they say if you publish this Americans are going to die in this place, that place and that place. And they have to go into the conference room and play fucking guesstimate as to whether or not they're trying to pull a fast one

on them because they just don't want this story out or whether or not like there's actually the people that are going to die as it relates to this story going out, which is an impossible situation to be in. And to his credit, he's like, we don't know when we get it right or wrong, but there's stories we either put out or stories that we don't. Yeah, that sucks. That is playing high stakes. Yes. And you also got to be so dedicated to the craft of journalism to be like, this story needs to be out there. Right. I don't care who it hurts. The people need to know. I don't have that type of, I don't have that type of scruples.

I'm like, what am I going to research? Then I'm like, it's worth risking my life in other people's lives to put this out. That's just seems wild. Yeah, it's an imposter.

You want to talk about being, being stuck between a shit and a fart. That's an impossible place to be. Facts. But it is kind of wild. I don't know. You do got to think like how this happens now, if it happens with like social media,

you know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Like if we're not getting information from reporters as much, we were getting information from pundits and, you know, different, like, media personalities. And obviously, they can be controlled as we've seen. Furthermore, if we're just getting information from an algorithm. Oh, yeah.

Is it possible to kind of, you know, crank up the notches on the algorithm? Zuckerberg recently talked about how the Biden-Harris administration had asked him to sort of censor and kind of quell stories in as far as they related to COVID-19 during the pandemic. Look, that's a huge problem. Just when governments get involved with suppressing speech, it's an enormous, enormous problem. And look, free speech can be very ugly with what some people will say. And it's not fun to look at, but the alternative's worse. Yeah. No doubt, no doubt about it. You have to beat bad speech with good speech.

And you have to trust that over time there are going to be. fewer, dumber people than there are smarter people when it comes to that. Yeah. You know, it's tough, but, again, way better than the alternative of deciding what goes and what doesn't because you want to talk about breaking trust in institutions forever. You break trust when you do that. Yeah. Yeah.

And I personally, I trust all the institutions. Right. Every single one. I do. Yeah. Because, I mean, I saw the Black Rock poster outside. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. this program. Shout out BlackRock. Shout out BlackRock.

One of the best hedge funds, whatever they are. Not a hedge fund, but world owners. Great, one of the best owners. Some of the best owners in the game, to be honest. They own the building, actually.

They do. You rent from them. That is like 90% probably true. Black Rock Studio. Let's talk about Operation Paperclip. This is a classic. This is just a good old fashion, good old fashion

sci-op that basically was done, not really sad, but more like an operation that was done at the end of World War II. If anyone doesn't know, at this point... Get damn Nazis! Yeah, at this point, if you don't know about this one, you've got to fucking get out of the rock that you're living under.

This is basically at the end of World War II, the United States offered immunity to a lot of the different Nazi scientists and engineers that were, you know, helping drop bombs on Britain to work for NASA. Among other things. Among many other things.

But NASA's kind of the main thing. one where you kind of look at it and you're like hang on a second Warner von Braun who this guy dude he he was a Nazi like like like like not just like a run of the mill he was a he was a slowest Jewish person get shot Nazi oh wow yeah because there's probably some Nazis that were like fuck my fun I oh I hate I hate him I don't what do you want me to say I don't I don't I hate all you know I like bagels I'm not but then there are some that or Nazi. Yeah, I agree. But there are some that were probably just like run of the mill.

Like, I gotta do this. You gotta go drive to DACA. I gotta find parking and think. Gotta go fucking kill. Do genocide. That would suck. You know? That's what you gotta do what you love. You never work a day in your life.

Remember that, guys. Oh my God. We love our Jewish friends. No, I'm agreeing with you. Some of these Nazis are more Nazi than others. I walked right into that one. That was good. That was good.

Mark. And apparently Warner was one of them. But he also puts a man on the moon. Yeah. Probably because there's no Jews there. He's trying to find a place without Jews. I'm saying he's a Nazi. I'm on your side. He was trying to find a place that was Jewless. Fucking Nazi. Well, the guy, I mean, you were telling me before you read at least some of devil's chessboard. Yeah. Right? David Talbot. I mean, Alan Dulles, very fitting that he spends his years working for the CIA predecessor at the OSS during World War II in Bern, Switzerland. Yeah, striking deals.

Right, yeah. Striking some deals, helping out some Nazis, birth and operation paperclip with other people. But, you know, like the sympathies that seem to exist there with him and some of the Nazis are kind of beyond explanation to me. Yeah. I mean, I'll get everyone up to speed if you don't know what operation paperclip is. I'll tell you, baby birds. obviously 1,600 German experts who had specialized knowledge in fields like rocketry, aerospace engineering, chemical warfare.

Stop. You have to do this in Annie Jacobson's voice. There were basically 1600 Nazis that were there to... I can't like your... Annie Jacobson. I'll be honest. I've never listened to Annie Jacobson. Never.

I saw the clip of her on Rogan and I read part of a book. Bro. But I was like, how much nuclear... Look, nukes are bad, but I... We get it. I didn't listen to the whole thing. She got the hottest voice I've ever heard in my life.

I get hard in the car just here. Yeah. Oh, is her, oh my God, is there a nuclear warhead in my pants right now? What the hell is that? I actually was listening to that podcast

when my car caught on fire and almost exploded on the Garden State Parkway like five years ago and I didn't notice my car was catching on fire because I was so entranced by her voice. Oh, it's that.

I'll never forget that. Yeah. Maybe I was talking about Nazis and, you know, Operation Paperclip and I was just like, this is, you know. Basically, the Americans were at a crossroad. What do they do? Do they kill all these Nazis?

Are they try them at the Nuremberg trial, send them to prison forever, and all of their brilliant advancements? I mean, we need to acknowledge that there was a lot of industrial aerospace, you know, engineering. They were unfortunately good at some signs. That's why they were able to take over a lot of Europe. Don't forget. They were very experienced at doing some crazy shit. So basically America was like, all right, let's just cut them a deal. Let's just get some of these scientists and they'll work for us and they'll, you know, develop some of our industries here in America.

That they did. Yeah. Ultimate morality. Slippery slope question right there. Because like there's no doubt that these guys from an advanced weaponry standpoint had access to things that maybe to this day are still debated as to like, yo, how far did it go? But you're also talking about in most cases some of the worst. people like they had these other beliefs that were you know be less than human yeah but you're so afraid that the so i mean the the the three-way race between the british the soviets and the

united states armies right after v e day in 1945 just going through to get to germany to get to whatever resources existed across germany is one of the most underreported wildest parts of history ever and many of the secrets of the world, I'm convinced, were a part of that time period. Do you think they got Hitler? This is one conspiracy that I actually do believe I don't think they got Hitler. Do you think that skull they got as some woman in her 30s? It's a woman in her 30s. Vladimir Putin accidentally let some scientists in and they realized that and, you know,

because they allegedly had the skull. And then they very quietly said, no, you get that the fear. No worries. Which is hilarious to think that he thought it was real. Like this is like one of rappers like, yo, you can check my diamonds. And then they check the diamonds. It's like,

they're fake diamonds. Like, damn it. Why didn't know what telling me that? I thought there were real diamonds. You got to feel bad for Putin. He was like, yo, we really got hit with his head. And I bet you Putin went about that night. Oh, yeah.

Who is this bitch? Someone died. What the hell? Yeah, someone died over that. What is this about? Yeah. It is pretty crazy. So I don't know where he went.

I'll say. Argentina. Well, I don't know what country. The Antarctica shit gets really weird to me I don't know how much I buy Operation Hygium Yeah I don't know A lot of that's a little hazy

But you know The idea that all these other big guys got away And the biggest leading narcissist Of them all did not And he killed himself When they weren't there yet I don't know if I buy that man I just

You know I don't think you would have lived that much longer The guy was so fucked up from all the drugs he did You know But the FBI never thought he was dead. They had, they had images of what he could possibly look at for decades on their walls after that. And there is, look, we, and this is known, there is a real, you know, even to this day, what do you call it, like, fourth Reich community that exists in small parts of South America, for sure. I have one friend who actually was asked to do an investigation

into somebody involving a major American company where they came to him and said, you know, and this guy's like a like a high level military guy, right? And they came to him on the side and said, yo, we think this guy working with us is a Nazi. He's like, what? And they're like, this company that we're doing business with,

we're pretty sure the guy who leads it is like a card carrying Nazi. And my guy's like, what the fuck are you talking about? He's 87. He goose steps everywhere he goes. He's in Argentina. He's asking him stuff like that. He's a tiny must have.

They're like, what makes you say this? And they're like, he's just really sketchy. He's like, well, is he a dick? He's like, they're like, no, he's the nicest guy ever. And, you know, well, what does he do? Well, he wears a suit to the meeting. Seems fine. And he's like, it's not a Nazi.

It's in your head. Relax. Just get on with life. And they're like, no, no, can you please take a look at this? And after a while he's like, look, I'm a capitalist. I'll take your money and go find fucking nothing and call it a day. They're like, would you please? He's like, all right, fine.

Fucking guy was a Nazi. What? Card carrying full blown, South American, second or third generation, whatever it was, German national in South America, Nazi enacting. Whatever the fuck he was trying to do under the guys of being some friendly, regular, you know. Can you arrest him for that? Like, what's the deal with that? No, but they didn't, you know, they got rid of the business they were doing with them. Oh, that's great.

Yeah, that one, like, when he told me that one, that blew my mind. No, there are some Nazis out there, dude. Yeah. Like, if you've been on Twitter lately. You'll be like, huh? That feels like a planned psychological experiment looking at Twitter. There's something going on, dude. There's some, you read it, you're like, yo, Hitler might be tweeting up a storm right now.

Because there are some wild videos going around Twitter. But you know what, Mark, this is what's really disappointing to me. When you as, when institutions break the trust of society by doing fucked up things, up to and including conspiracies that are real, you then trust is the ultimate thing that when it's broken, like it's shattered. And so now people have an attitude towards that. And so you don't create skeptics. You create people who are incentivized in their head to believe that every single thing ever is a lie up to and including things that are being. beyond our comprehension in the year of 2024. They just believe the opposite.

That's it. And I'm watching that happen online now. And I can't. It's like, this is why we can't have nice things. Like anyone who comes up to you and says, no, you need to critically think about this. They are asking you to critically think so that you arrive at their predetermined opinion at the end. And if you don't, you are not a critical thinker, which is the exact opposite of being critical thinker.

Yeah. Like that's where we're at. If you disagree with me, you're not a critical thing. That's right. Yeah. It's like. Yeah. It's crazy.

It is, it is a, it is crazy. I do hope that things kind of swing back around. I hope so, yeah, that this is just like a, you know, everyone's got free speech. So they're going wild and they're like, wait, we can say anything. And then it'll kind of over, it'll correct. And then people won't be so fucking racist all the time. But what does their algorithm look like? Yeah.

And what does it drive home to them over and over again? Yeah, fucked up shit. I experiment with, I've been doing this for years. I experiment with my algorithm. Like I'll push it one way or the other for a while. See what happens? Yeah. And I think I do a pretty good job because it gets crazy.

Like I've had really left wing algorithms. Just ass and the right wing. You just go back and forth. Yeah. Exactly. It's just different types of hose. Then I've also fixed it. It's harder to do this now, but I fixed it so it's like really balanced too.

But where it's balanced where they're total opposites. One tweet to the next. Yeah, it's just polar. Oh, yeah. And I'm like, damn, I wonder what the people who aren't thinking about this, which pretty much everyone, you know, what there's looks like and what it repeatedly feeds them and drives home. I just try to stay off it.

Tend to your garden. Take care of your family. That's right. Take care of your wife. Take care of your children. Touch grass, bro. Touch grass. That's all it matters.

Do you know why they call it Operation Paperclip? I didn't know about this time looked into it. No, I don't think so. Apparently, the program was renamed Operation Paperclip by U.S. Ordnance Corps officers who attach paper clips to the folders of the rocket scientist they wanted to bring to America. That's right. What a great name, by the way.

It's so good. It's perfect. Whoever the CIA is like branding guys is. Yeah. Like, it's awesome. They did a great job with Walmart, too. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It was a pretty wild operation. They got a bunch of other people. Kurt DeBos. Yes. You ever heard of this guy? Yes.

Is that I might pronounce it? Annie wrote about him a lot. She wrote about all these people in Operation Paperclip her book. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's a wild one, pro. She did a great job with that. He was the first director of the Kennedy Space Center.

He was also appointed by, Hitler to lead the German rocket research program. Look, we all have baggage, okay? Let's just not forget. I'm sure you've done fucked up things in your life. Not like that. Look, you can judge all you want, okay? We've all lied.

We've all dishonored our parents. You know, we've all probably... You kill 11 million people? Not yet. Let's talk about Bin Laden's demon toy, all right? This was a psychological operation that was proposed by the CIA in the 2000s. This is so much fun.

Have you heard of this? The Bin Laden demon toy? Demon toy? I've heard about his porn collection. Oh, this is great. Okay. This is basically a plan that happened

in the 2000s. The plan was to create an action figure of Osama bin Laden that would transform into a demonic figure with glowing red eyes and a frightening face that would scare children.

Like a Barbie Osama bin Laden demon demon child? Here it is. Oh, you have a picture of it. The idea was to distribute these toys in Afghanistan to scare local children undermine his image. However, the plan was deemed ineffective and culturally insensitive and never went beyond. Is this

like straight out of South Park Team America? They came up with this idea. You can see the demon face version of it. Wait, can I see that? I can't really. They just made dark. They put like Mike Tyson tattoos on him? Yeah, they were like, who's the scariest guy? They were like Darth Mall. Yeah, that's almost like borderline blackface there, my guy. Yeah. So they Star Wars Osama. They're like

These people, you know, they're fine with al-Qaeda, but they won't stand. Oh, they Star Wars them, dark time. Yeah, yeah. But Blackface is fine, apparently, I guess. I don't know. They're like, that's what will scare these Afghan kids because they hate, they hate racism. They're fine with Al-Qaeda, but racism is where they draw the line. They're not going to support a guy doing Blackface.

Osama and Jimmy Kimmel, in that order. We're going to talk about the Cold War Condom Drop Plan. This was a great idea. This one is awesome. This plan involved dropping thousands of extra large condoms, to medium over the Soviet Union to cause confusion and demoralize the Soviet male population. The goal was to suggest

that American men were so extraordinarily well endowed, well endowed thereby affecting the morale and confidence of the Soviet men. The idea behind... What was that? We don't have an author cited? General Ron Jeremy

was the guy that thought of it. It was an audacious operation to undermine the morale of the people living in the USSR. Despite its ridiculousness, this odd act of psychological warfare was believed to devastate the communist males. I don't know if this actually happened. I don't think that it did, but maybe it did, and I'm reading this incorrectly. I don't know.

I mean, we've done the whole, and it's not just us, we've done the dropover thing. I mean, one of the things they deny is before the 43 Sicily invasion that Lucky Luciano, you know, well, he did help the United States with some intelligence as to, you know, how to go across Italy. or how to go across Sicily. But one of the alleged stories is that some planes drop leaflets to get messages to the mafia chieftains across the country ahead of time to tell them that it was going to be the United States coming through. And, you know, they'd give them some sort of deal and yada, yada, yada. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's interesting.

But it was misinformation. No, it ended up being true. Like Don Calo Vitzini was like riding in the fucking, no, I'm not saying the leaflets part was true. that's alleged that that happened. I kind of think that did. But Donkalo, Vitzini was like riding in the fucking tanks across the country because, you know, they hated Mussolini and everything. He was like trying to kill all them and stuff with the United States and allied troops basically saying, you know, like, all right, we're here now. We're taking the island.

And by the way, it's back in the hands of the mafia. Interesting. Yeah. Here's a great little sci-op done by college football. This is a great one. This kind of reminds me the condom thing. You ever heard of Mike Leach? The R.R. Rest in Peace, yeah.

Oklahoma's offensive coordinator. He created an entire fake playbook and leaked it to Texas right before the Red River Showdown. Oh, that's incredible. As they were doing the field walk, they were going through the field, checking for like little divvets, making sure the field was good. They went out there and he drops a fake playbook. Oh, that's incredible. On the field. That's incredible.

The Texans pick it up and they're looking at the playbook during the game. they're like, what the hell is going on? And this disinformation campaign helped the Sooners go up 17-0 on the long horns. Literally, dude. Reverse. Yo, let me drop some information. Y'all can steal it from a psych, little broke boy. What broke boy?

Texans, watch this. What was the name of the mission in World War II, where MI6, including the guy who ended up writing James Bond? Yeah, the guy who wrote James Bond was involved with it, where they had the fake body wash up on the shores of Spain. Oh, I don't know. movie about it on Netflix. Why is not, why am I blanking? I don't know. I were short about that three years ago. I can't fucking remember it.

Is this a movie? Yeah. Yeah. Operation Mincemeat. That's it. Operation Mincemeat. What is that? Yeah. So they had, MI6 came up with this idea when, when the Allies were trying to figure out how to invade Europe, which we just talked about, they ended up invading Sicily. They wanted to throw the Germans off. So they found a dead, you know, drunk guy on the streets of, like, the UK, they had his body preserved and they dressed him up like he was some sort of military leader and they put fake plans in his pocket that said they were like going to invade Greece or something like that.

They planted them in the Mediterranean to wash up on the shores of Spain where the Nazis then recovered the body, read the intelligence and set up their defenses. Maybe it was in Greece. I can't remember such that then Eisenhower and the Allied forces could take Sicily. That's crazy. Yeah, that was some next level spot. You're quote at the beginning. It's like U.S. manufacturing, British spying, and Russian blood.

Exactly. Very, very, very accurate there. I mean, that's crazy. I don't know if you could do that with homeless people today. I feel like there's a lot of face tattoos. Yeah, I mean, like they would look at it, they'd be like, you're telling this. General Post Malone. Yeah, you're telling us that this general has a tear drop.

I don't know. I don't know. I feel like the cobweb on his elbow makes me think this guy. You could laser that shit off. Yeah, I guess probably. Have you heard of Acoustic Kitty? Is this part of the playlist they used to play to torture people at the CIA? That's a, I think that was with Noriega, right?

Or maybe I'm missing. Maybe I'm misremembering this. This is a, this, they did this down in, uh, in Nicaragua where they were, say easy, they were playing, like, music to, like get him out of his compound. They were like blasting music. But I don't know about an actual playlist for torturing people. Like, like Rickroll on them? Yeah, they might have Rick rolled him.

This is actually a great topic. that we'll bring up on our next episode, but we do a part two. But Acousticitty, this is a great one. This is just a cute, classic little CIA operation that I loved. I read about this when I was a kid, and I was like, oh, I want to be in the CIA.

Are you, Mark? No. You sure? Of course not. You look a lot like Andy Boostamonte if you didn't get a tan. I get that, right? Wait, if I didn't get a tan, he's you.

Yeah, if he didn't get a tan, he's you. Oh, that's good. I thought you were saying if I didn't get a tan. I was going to say, no, he's tan. Yeah, yeah. I'm not ethnically ambiguous enough. Okay. The CIA implanted a listening device and a transmitter and a cat and an actual

feline and an attempt to eavesdrop on suspected Soviet agents. According to a 67 agency report in an effort posted by the National Security Archive, having successfully created a four-footed living bug, the agency set out to test their cat in Washington Park. They wanted to see if it would work. So literally, they put a transmitter, they put a recording device in this cat, they let it loose, set it free, and it was going straight towards a park bench where two men were engaged in conversation. But unfortunately, the cab was crushed by a taxi before it could get there. According to Victor Marchetti, a former special assistant to the CIA.

And somewhere right now, Danny Jones is leaning in going, you tell me birds aren't real. Well, that's another op that they did. Have you heard that? It's my favorite one. The bird one is crazy. The pigeons aren't real. You ever seen a baby pigeon? You ever seen them build nests?

You ever seen a pigeon nest? You know, I don't know if I've seen a pigeon nest actually. No one has. I have seen a baby pigeon, though. Because pigeon nests are the saddest shit you've ever seen in your life. Oh, wow. They don't know how to build nests. But you know they're smart as fuck, right?

Stop it. What does that mean? Yeah, they're top. Like smart animal. What is that? What is top? Compared to what? Like whales and shit?

There's no way. I can name 10 smarter. Dogs are not smarter than a pigeon. Dogs are not smart. Ravens are smarter than a pigeon. Crows are smart. than a pigeon. Crows are smart.

Dolphins are smarter than a pigeon. That's correct. Rats are slightly smarter. Give me poodle. I think rats can be smarter than a pigeon. Yeah. Rats are smart as fuck, man. That's, see?

We're just named nine. Unless you get them near a spider. Wait, rats don't like spiders? No, you never, no, you never seen this shit? Like spiders sometimes will like catch mice and rats. No. Yeah. Like,

breeding spiders. Yeah, pull up this video, bro. Spider catching. Like, if spiders, were larger, we would all be fucked. They would eat us all. Crestos wouldn't be out there right now.

All right, we're going to play this video. If you guys are listening right now, I recommend that you tune in because we're about to see some fucked up. Bro. Oh! All right. Oh, my God.

It makes me want to gag. A huntsman spider carries a dead mouse across a fridge. That is great. Well, yo, what do you do if you see that shit, bro? Dude, this is what I'm saying. What do you do if you're at your crib and all of a sudden you see that? That's a murder, bro.

Paul Rosley's like, we love spiders. I'm like, oh, I'm sorry, fuck spiders. That is a, that is a real mouse that he's just munching on right there, dude. The strength on those fucking legs. Look at him. He's just like, he's like paragliding across that fridge. I don't even think he's struggling at all. That's crazy.

Yeah, that's fucked up. So, yeah, probably spiders are smarter than a pigeon. I'm pigeons are like, Google top 10 smart animals. What's that Christos? Oh, dude, that's why I, like, I'm not one of these like, you know, like I love meat. I am a meathead. Yo! But like I don't actively order pork because of how they do it.

I'm going to be honest about that one. Like I have pork. If it's on a buffet, like I do have it. But like pigs are smart as fuck, bro. I do the same thing with babies. I don't like to eat veal for that reason. I don't like to do pork. I don't really do veal.

Because I'm like, I'm like, something about killing a bait. I'm like, come on, now. Why'd you got to do that? I do like V-O-2, but yeah. We didn't even mention chimpanzees. You and your whole pigeon propaganda is fucking... Type in our pigeons smart. See, now you're moving the goalposts.

I'm not moving to the goalpost. Google 10 reasons why pigeons are smart. Type in top 10 smart animals. Pigeons are so smart. Top 10 smart animals. No, how about we do your first search, which is number one chimpanzees, number two dolphins, number three octopies, number four dogs,

number five orangutans, number six, ravens and crows, number seven, great parets. number eight bumblebees number nine gorillas number ten pigeons I'm fucking lying

it's humans shut the fuck up of course it's humans why would humans not be in the top ten what the fuck you're talking about you really thought you gotta find my other list

maybe it was on BuzzFeed or some shit oh from Julian Dory clips pigeons were actually smart yeah no they're smart as fuck bro I don't want to hear it see I told you

you ever seen how do you see how tight they get to you other birds they get all scared and shit they fly like I try to let like the seagulls land on my finger and by the Hudson, they won't do it.

The pigeons, they'll walk right, they'll land on the pigeon lady. Yeah, they got street smarts. They got a lot of street. They fucking Crip Walks sometimes these guys. I have seen that. I have seen that. It's crazy. Like they move left to right and a diagonal. Yeah, no, they can crump.

But I don't think that that is, they got street smarts. It's like, come on, it's different. I don't think they're going to do good on the SAT. They might do okay. I don't know. We'll look into it. Let me tell you about Operation Sikarno, all right? Sicario?

Sikarno. Sikarno. How do you spell that? S-U-K-A-R-N-O. This was done in the 50s and 60s. And basically there's this guy named Sukarno, all right? He's this Indonesian warlord? Sounds about right.

Good guy? I don't know. He was a threat to Western interest due to his non-aligned stance during the Cold War and his relationships with communist countries. God damn communists. Exactly, these fucking commies. So what did the CIA want to do? They were going to exploit Sikarno's well-known womanizing reputation by producing a fake sex tape featuring Sikarno and featuring Sikarno's look-alike.

They're going to get basically a guy that look like him. Wait a second. And a Russian actress to discredit him and undermine his credibility to gain influence in Indonesia and globally. Tom Meyer wrote about this. Who did that? Who was the guy who did that? That did what? The dude responsible for doing that undercover mission.

Frank Whistner? No. There was another guy. Tom had him. in his book, he talked about it on the podcast. Fuck. I don't remember. It is pretty wild.

Yeah, it's going to kill me. Basically, to the agency's chagrin, the Communist Party, an importance to Carno ally, received 6 million votes in an election over the next two years. His ties with Moscow and Beijing just got better and better, and the CIA was fucking stressed out. Don't you hate it when the elections don't go to CIA's way? Yeah. And then you have to go and fucking make a porno just to discredit some guy.

That's right. Or, you know, whack him. Apparently the Soviets did attempt to blackmail Sikarno by filming him having sex with a group of flight attendants. Which is funny. Like actual women, or were they trying to, like, get him mixed up with dudes? No, I think women. Like, I don't know. Underage women?

I don't, it doesn't say explicitly. I can't say that, but is that, I mean, that's obviously horrible. But over there, was that frowned upon? You never know with some of those countries. I think Indonesia, specifically at the time, the 50s was like a fairly, a fairly, religious countries. So like the idea of having a having like a big I've seen religious countries with fucking seven year old wives. I'm just

saying. That's a decent point. Yeah. Basically they were saying they knew that this guy was a womanizer. According to reports Sikarno had an affair with a flight attendant who was a KGB spy. And so the CIA saw this and they were like, oh, let's try to exploit this promiscuity and get some dirt on. Imagine being Sikarno and you're like, dude, every, like, you're

getting siopped from everyone. You're banging a flight attendant being like, you're not American. She's like, no, I'm not an American spy. Meanwhile, she's a fucking KGB spy. Right. Very hard. They try to blackmail him. It's a whole thing.

Everyone's trying to get info on this guy. And basically, the KGB misread a crucial aspect of Sikarno's sexual proclivities. He never tried to hide his tendencies. If anything, he flaunted them. He openly supported polygamy. He took on four official wives while maintaining a de facto marriage to his fifth wife. And he once bragged to a U.S. diplomat that he was a very physical man who needed sex every day

and shocked his government hosts in Washington, D.C., when he demanded that they provide him with prostitutes during his visit. Demanded it. Of course. I would demand it. If I'm a president of some country, some dictator, I'd be like, yo, get me some box when I pull up. Given his boast, the KGB shouldn't have been too surprised that their efforts to blackmail him

went astray. and the CIA was equally slow at learning this lesson. Were they slower, is that, you know? I guess we'll never know. That's for you to decide. I guess we'll never know. Yeah, so they were basically trying to like get blackmail in this guy. So here's what they decided to do.

So they decided that they're going to make their own sex tapes starring Sikarno, sort of. A quote, a substantial effort was made to come up with a pornographic film or at least some still photographs that could pass as him and his Russian girlfriend engaged in sexual activity. The CIA failed to find a couple who could pass for Sukarno and his Russian girlfriend.

So the CIA undertook efforts to produce its own films. The CIA decided to make a full face mask of the Indonesian leader. This was outlined in... And what years is this again? 50s, 60s, something like that. Oh, bro, we got some mass motherfuckers out there.

Crazy. Oh my God. The police then went to Los Angeles where they paid a porn star to wear this mask of the Indonesian leader during a scene with a woman who looked like his Russian girlfriend. So he had a hog in the scene. He was probably happy about that. Yeah, probably. He's like, look, I'm hung like a fucking horse. But I am also circumcised. That's defamation. In the book, the CIA's Black Ops covered action foreign policy and democracy. John Jacob Nutter contends that the film entitled Happy Days was pretty.

produced with the actor wearing a mask. Pretty crazy. The CIA with the help of some British allies at MI6 eventually facilitated a coup that led to his government being replaced. So all this poor nonsense was just for nothing. It's like, yo, just fucking... The fact that it was that long ago,

and then you even take... You ever hear Johnaman Mendez talk, the CIA's lady who did like the disguises for a long time? Oh, no. I've seen the insider, the insider clip. Yeah, so she's been all... on a bunch of stuff, but there was one story she tells, I forget where, what she said this on, but like, she knew George H.W. Bush, obviously, and then he was president, and she did a full

briefing in front of him, I guess, in like 1990 in a mask, and he had no idea. Oh, wow. So what you, what the fuck do you think they can do now? That's why I look at Andy sometimes, like, I've pulled on Andy's hair, I pulled on it a taco belt once to make sure, I felt real, but you don't know. Maybe they're that good. Maybe they're that good. Maybe they're that fucking good. I don't know. I I think all these people are fucking reptiles. I don't trust anyone. I don't trust any. I don't even trust you.

Are you fucking crazy? You got a brain underneath that fucking fitted. I can tell. I got a what? You got a brain, just an exposed brain. An exposed brain. Yeah, literally.

All right, it's just hair. It's just hair, bro. Here's actually a funny little side story about a book that was about this whole thing, about the whole Sukarno thing, written by this guy, William Blum. You ever heard of this guy? Maybe. He turned out to be. Osama bin Laden's favorite author.

This is a funny little side story. This is not the guy I'm thinking. I've never heard of this guy. That I discovered me and this guy, Ravi, that was doing research. We found this. We're like, oh, this is too good. Basically, in 2006, Blum briefly became the subject to brought widespread media attention when he basically was writing a book called

Rogue State, a guide to the world's only superpower. And in it, he criticizes some American foreign policy and some of the, you know, operations done by the CIA. And Osama bin Laden issued a public statement where he said that he said that he, loved his work and that he was his favorite author. They interviewed Blum because... That's a tough review, bro. Yeah, exactly, dude.

It's like being Oprah's favorite. You're like, I'm Osama's favorite? Really? He likes reading car... He likes cars by Pixar and me. That's what was on his hard drive. That's crazy. What if he listens this podcast?

Osama? Yeah. You're saying he's still alive? You think they got him? I do. No, he's in Argentina. No. In they interview him, they say, he goes, I was surprised and even shocked and amused when I found out what he had said.

I was glad. I knew it was going to help the book sales, and I was not bothered by who was coming from. If he shares with me a deep dislike for certain aspects of U.S. foreign policy, I'm not going to spur in any endorsement of the book by him. I think it's good that he shares those views, and I'm not turned off by that. Wow. That takes some guts to say. Yes, what I'm saying, dude. Thanks, Osama.

But yeah, let me tell you about Long Leash. This is a great little operation. Oh, yeah. This was the one we were talking about before a podcast. Please. This one is fabulous. I love this. So basically, this is during the Cold War, the CIA launched a covert operation known as Long Leash.

What is this operation's goal? Is to promote American abstract expressionist artists like Jackson Pollock and Mark Rothko. Why would they do this? They were doing this to use modern art as a cultural weapon against the Soviet Union. Yes, you heard me right. What's the how? So basically what they were doing is that they were propping up these artists and they were doing art shows all over the world to show the Soviets, hey, look at how free and expressive the American people are, as opposed to how rugged and brutalist all of the Soviet art is at the time. What were the names you said they did this was specifically Pollock and who else?

Rothko and Jackson Pollock. Okay. And that was it. I think it was they were broadcasting a lot of them, but those are the ones that are the most. famous and well known from the operation. Did we know if it went towards like a warhol or anything like that? I don't know if it's... Or a Basquiat? I don't know.

I don't know if it's been disclosed as a part of this. But perhaps. I think they were doing galleries all of the world to show like American artistic exceptionalism and freedom. Ironically, many of the artists supported that the CIA supported had left-leaning ideas. They were probably fucking communists themselves. And they would have been horrified if they knew that they were being used as a

social tool by the CIA. They got a good laugh over some Cuban cigars and Langley on that one. Oh, they were dying laughing. These fucking homos think that they're actually good artists? They think people give a shit about your fucking Bukaki on a canvas. Are they fucking crazy? They were dying laughing.

Are you out of your mind? The CIA developed a strategy of indirect support. They funneled money through wealthy patrons, private foundations, cultural institutions to fund exhibitions to promote these artists without revealing their involvement. Pretty wild tied up like a bow

It's beautiful right One of the main efforts Was the Congress for Cultural Freedom Established in 1950 They would do events worldwide Presenting abstract expressionism As a symbol of American freedom The Museum of Modern Art in New York City

Played a significant role in this strategy Nelson Rockefeller MoMA's president and a savvy political figure Used his position to align the museum's exhibitions With the CIA goals A Rockefeller aligning with the CIA that would never happen. Never.

What happened to that family, right? They used to just be so fucking anti-American government. That's right. Under his leadership, MoMA organized exhibitions like The New American Painting, which toured Europe from 58 to 59, showcasing American art

a spontaneous cultural exchange rather than carefully planned propaganda. Funding these exhibitions came from seemingly independent sources that were actually controlled by the CIA. For example, when London Tate's Gallery couldn't afford to host the new American painting,

an American millionaire named Julius Junkie Fleischman covered the cost. Oh, yeah. And the public Fleischman was funneling CIA money through the Fairfield Foundation of CIA Front. What was Fleischman's source of wealth again? Turns out the CIA. No, no, no, no, like allegedly, though.

I don't know. I mean, probably was an actual businessman. I've never even heard of this person who frankly. Yeah, no, I read about him, but I can't place it. You don't forget that name. Julius Fleischman. Yeah. Let me look.

He was the former mayor of Cincinnati. I mean, interesting, by the way. Longtime president of Fleischman's yeast. He was the son of a yeast magnet. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. Big in the yeast industry. Yeah, I mean, MoMA was chaired at one point in recent years, I believe, by Leon Black and his wife,

who was a financier for Epstein. To the tune of like $257 million. What? Towards the end of his life, yeah. Who is this? Yeah, he's one of the co-founders of Apollo Global. Yeah, but he was like in charge of, I think he was on the chair of the board of MoMA.

Wow. Yeah, so to just use an art for weird ops, which is a shame because, you know, the artist get caught in the middle of it. You hate that. That's crazy. Yeah. Also, let the record show this guy, Julius Fleischman

that was just reading about was too early. He died in 1925. So maybe it was his kid or something, but likely of yeast fame. Oh yeah. This boat paid for by Big yeast. Big yeast. So yeah, that was a real operation they did

that apparently held blow up some art. Kind of crazy. It makes you wonder. It does. Maybe that's why this podcast is doing so good. Sometimes I'll look at modern art, though. There's some modern art that's like amazing. And then you'll see some of these videos that go viral on social,

you know, where it's like some naked lady like, painting a line and like everyone's standing there silently like some fucking cult ritual and I'm like this is just like we used to make a nice shit Is it a sigh off or a tax write off? Which is it?

Both. Isn't that perfect? I'd like the double up. Yes. All right, let's just end on maybe a, let's just end on a fun one, all right? Please. This is Operation Wandering Soul.

Wondering Soul. You ever heard of this? This is, this one is wild. This is how they basically used Filipino vampires to... Vampires. Yeah. Like real vampires. Like blood-sucking vampires.

The Aswan. Okay. During the Cold War, the CIA engaged in several unconventional tactics to counter communist insurgencies around the world. One of the most unique psychological manipulative operations occurred in the Philippines in the 1950s, where the CIA exploited local folklore to undermine the Hooke insurgency, the Hook Balahap. the hook ballhop I'm not pronouncing that correctly I don't speak

Tagalong Or other They speak in Manila I don't I'm not Whatever Mexican What do they speak about that? Yeah something like that Basically this was

The hook insurgency Was a communist guerrilla movement And America doesn't like that No no We've never been big on communism They don't like communism They don't like guerrillas Shout out Harambe

So what do they do They gotta get rid of them This operation revolved around Leveraging the fear of the Aswong a vampire-like creature from Filipino mythology to instill terror amongst the hook rebels. Is this like a bat? And diminish their local support.

It's a vampire, dude. What are what? How many times I got to tell you? It's a fucking, look, it's that. That's a fucking person. That's like Count Dracula. That's a vampire, bro. That's what it is.

It is an umbrella term for various shape-shifting evil creatures. Oh, we're at shape-shifting now. Yeah. We're at the reptiles. Yeah, swung. Basically, it's things like a vampire, a ghoul, a witch, of Vicerra sucker. A Vicerra sucker?

A transforming human beast hybrid? This is a terrifying beast that exists in the Philippines. Okay, it's only there. It doesn't have a passport. It can't travel. It's basically the subject of a wide variety of myths throughout the Filipino culture. So what does America do?

What are they to do? They hire a guy named Ed Lansdale. You might know him. He's an ad executive turned CIA operative who masterminded the Aswan plot. They used an ad executive to do that. Yes. Marketing, baby.

Crazy, right? Madison Avenue, let's go. Under the leadership of Edward Lansdale, they saw an opportunity to exploit these deep-rooted superstitions. He had a background in advertising, was adept at understanding and manipulating public perception. So him and his team, through research and a local beliefs, identified the Aswong as a potent source of fear.

By using this myth, they aim to create this as a sci-op to demoralize the hook rebels without direct confrontation. Mission accomplished. Well, it gets even crazier because they actually did it. So basically what they do, of their most infamous tactics, what they did, all right, they capture a hook rebel, they puncture his neck with two holes to simulate vampire bites,

they drained his blood, and then left his body in a conspicuous place where it's going to be discovered by other hook fighters. The sight of a blood-drained comrade with vampire-like wounds was terrifying enough to convince the, the remaining hook fighters that they were being targeted by supernatural forces.

Who did this? The United... The United States and Ed Lansdale fucking geniuses. I kind of like this one, to be honest. The fear was exacerbated

by superstitions, prevalent in rural areas, and many local fighters and villagers. The idea of the assuong was just folklore. And then it became a real and terrifying possibility.

What years was this again? It was like 50s, 60s? God, so much. So much in the world. those years. Crazy, right? So what a world. We didn't even get to

like Laos. We didn't even get to zero to 100 so quickly. Dude. They're like no spy agency. Spy agency and mind control and fuck up every government and overthrow.

And vampires and everything. Crazy. Apparently this is not the only place that they did this. They did this in Vietnam. We're going to get to that. Okay. But this is not the only thing

they did in the Philippines. The tactics were not limited to these displays, but also by spreading rumors and playing on superstitions to undermine their morale. They were basically flying over villages with a loudspeaker,

broadcasting curses and ominous messages in the native Tagalog language. These messages were designed to make villagers believe that the supernatural forces would punish anyone who aided the hooks, further isolating the rebels and cutting them off

from potential support networks. They also painted, quote, the eye of God, a symbol known in Filipino folklore on the outside of the homes of hook sympathizers. This tactic played on the fear of being watched by a higher power,

sewing paranoia and distrust within the community. The symbol's presence implied that those who supported the hooks were under divine surveillance, discouraging further collaboration and increasing the psychological pressure. Psychological torture. Population. Crazy. That is crazy. I never heard of that one.

So they were like, let's just run it back. And that's where Operation Wandering Soul comes from. This was done in Vietnam. The U.S. military tried to employ a similar strategy. Basically, they tried to understand the cultural significance of this. this thing called the wandering soul, which is a thing known in Vietnamese folklore, basically spirits of the dead

who have not received proper burials. So, what does the U.S. military do? They exploited this belief to try to demoralize Viet Cong fighters. They broadcast ghostly sounds and altered voices through loudspeakers in the area where enemy troops were believed to be hiding.

The broadcast mimicked the voices of deceased Vietnamese soldiers, pleading with their living comrades to give up the fight and return home. I mean, what the fuck? These eerie sounds, were intended to sow fear and confusion

leveraging the Vietnamese cultural fear of restless spirits. The psychological impact of hearing what seemed to be the voices of the dead freaked him out a little bit but didn't really seem to be all that effective. The effectiveness kind of varied and it showcased the U.S. military's willingness

to use cultural belief as psychological weapons but ultimately wasn't really seen as a deciding factor in the conflict. Pretty crazy. Yeah. I feel that feels like good in theory, poor in execution.

Yeah, right? When you're dealing, I mean, if you look at the terrain of Vietnam and the type of hand-to-hand brutal warfare it was, it's like I think humanity was kind of left at the door to the point. I don't know if some

some weird voices are stopping people from running out of the bush. Now, that should work on me. It would work on you? 100%, bro. I'm fucking, I'm scared of demons and stuff. You think demons are real? I've never seen one, but I have a pathological phobia of demons.

What do you think a demon is? Do you think it's like some biblical shit? Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know, really. It's just in my brain and it's like from childhood and I'm like, that is the scariest thing. It's funny though because I'll talk to like my Muslim friends and they're like, oh, I'm afraid of jinns. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

They're like, oh, that shit is, I've never seen one. I don't even, like they're not even Muslim anymore. Like they eat pork and fucking, you know, bang white chicks. but they're still like, I'm afraid of Jins. I'm like, yeah, me too. This shit is freaky. I gotta get Beck Lover in here with you talking about the gin.

That would entertain the shit out of you. Goodness. It's like, the gin is real. It's real, my friend. Oh, he doesn't have to tell me. I believe him. All right, can we end on one? Can we end on this one?

What, what? Operation Chaos. Wait, Operation K, explain this? Operation Chaos was a CIA domestic espionage. Project targeting American citizens from 1967 to 1974, established by LBJ and expanded under Nixon. And the mission was to uncover possible foreign influence or domestic race, anti-war, and other protest movements. The operation was launched under Richard Helms and by Chief of Counterintelligence James Engleton.

James Jesus, Engleton. Exactly, right. Which is a fire last name for a non-Mexican. Dude, he, that's, and that's the dude Matt Damon was based on him and the Good Shepherd. But that's, uh, James Jesus Angleton is his own podcast. Yeah, we should deep dive on that one. That one's, yeah, read the books on that one. That would be fun.

Yes, for sure. I love that shit, though. The aim of the programs was to compile reports on illegal and subversive contact between United States civilian protesters and foreign elements, which might range from casual contacts, to closely controlled channels for party directives. So as a result, they basically just spied on Americans. And this roaps in some of this, like we know about MK. Ultra with Manson, but this rolls up into that too with the hippie movement, I believe.

Yeah, because that was a major component they were keeping an eye on. Right. And the idea that like the day the tape murders happened is the day the 60s officially ended is. makes a lot of sense. Absolutely. Because that's when it's suddenly like, oh, these peace-loving fucking drug bangers are killing people. And it created mass hysteria and fear in society,

even though there was a sinister, maybe CIA-backed experiment gone wrong behind that. What? The Mansons and... I mean, I think Tom O'Neill's evidence is pretty fucking good, man. You think he was a part of some type of brainwashing technique that made him go crazy

and became a coltleader and killed people and hit him in the desert. That's right. I doubt it. Anyway, I get to the end of this and reading all these crazy little stories and I'm like, you know what? Intelligence operations are pretty wild. Sometimes you got to do dirty deeds to, you know, keep the American people safe.

Yeah, that's right. A little raw dog never hurt nobody. But they don't do it anymore. No, they don't. Apparently, according to Andy, ever since 9-11, it's really hard. Yeah. Administratively challenging. That's his phrase.

It is. It is. It's hard to do. How are you going to spy on people nowadays? So hard. Right. They'd never do such a thing. This is America, bro. That's what I'm saying. We're above that here. I have a question, Julian. Yeah. Are you interested in these types of topics? Do you talk to people like this on any type of podcast or, you know, talk to CIA people, talk to military guys, talk to people that have, you know, burning interests and experience in these types of fields? I do. Yeah, we work in content like that because it's wildly fascinating and there's also a lot of historical accuracy to certain things. There's other things that are more speculation for sure where it's not backed by evidence. But it's fun to talk about because it just reminds you of how insignificant you are in this world. Just a number on a page at the end of the day and you can be caught in the middle of things you know nothing about, especially like you talked about media examples today. Sometimes you don't sometimes you should be smart and know. But other times it's like

Like, am I being used? Am I not? It's tough to say. But where can people find your combos? Where can people find you? Julian Dory on YouTube, on Spotify, video on both of those places. Julian D. D. D. D. D. Twitter. Julian D. D. D.m.m.

on Instagram and the podcast page on Instagram is at Julian D. at Julian Dory podcast. It's an excellent show. Thank you, right. I tune in from time to time. You've had guests on your show that I've eventually had on my show. And vice versa. And your pod has been excellent for research and, like,

learning and, you know, being able to learn about these guys. And if you are a fan of this program, if you are a camper, if you listen to Campagnon, there's a pretty high probability you're going to enjoy Julian's channel. So you guys should definitely check it out. Thanks so much for doing this, brother. Thank you for having me. I love this conversation. You're really great at what you do. Right back at you with your show, by the way. I appreciate it. And, you know, there's been some guests that have come on mine now from yours as well, started with Safi Ralph back in the day. So I like your, I like your eclectic taste, man. It's really good.

Thank you, bro. Let's do this again soon. All right. Absolutely. And you got to come on mine with Ryan Wood when we do that. I can't wait. See you then. Thanks, brother.