Camp Gagnon - DISTURBING Proof that Aliens are Demons

Episode Date: September 29, 2026

Nathaniel J. Gillis returns to dive into the darkest corners of demonology, the UFO hitchhiker effect, and entity encounters. We break down terrifying real-life cases—from the Moffett family haunting to the Scole Experiment—explore how entities manifest and feed on fear and discuss how to prevent contact contagion. Welcome back to Camp! 🏕️ Shoutout to our sponsors: Ultra, Blue Chew and GLD.com -New Customers get 40% OFF With Promo-Code: "CAMP" When They Visit: https://GLD.com -Don’t sleep on ULTRA Pouches. New customers get 15% Off with code CAMP at takeultra.com! #UltraPouches #ad Want the even WILDER theories? SIGN UP TO THE PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/cw/CampGagnon 👕🧢 Shop CAMP Merch: https://camp-rd.com/collections/ufo 🎟️ 🎫 Comedy Tour Tickets: https://markgagnonlive.com 🎩👽 Daily Dose Of History: https://www.dailytodayinhistory.com Timestamps: Timestamps: 00:00 Welcome to Camp 02:59 What Are Demons? 07:52 Nathan's Personal Experience 14:26 Telling Parents About Experience 16:44 The Looping Nightmare 21:50 Getting Rid of The Haunting 27:42 Demons or UFOs + Hitch Hiker Effect 32:30 How Entities Manifest 44:32 Capturing Entities on Camera 48:13 EVP Recordings 55:05 Deception of The Phenomena 1:02:38 The Scole Experiment 1:11:43 Can Entities Be Good? 1:17:05 The Moffett Family Haunting 1:33:15 Boy Crawls Up Wall 1:41:31 Marian Apparitions 1:45:15 The White Lady 1:53:10 Entities Feeding Off Fear 1:58:00 Prevent Contact Contagion 2:10:53 Skeptical Explanations For Experiences 2:13:20 Gas Leak Reddit Post #dark #darkhistory Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Please play responsibly. If you were someone you know is concerns about gambling, visit connectsontario.ca or call 1866-5-1-2-6-200. Terms and conditions apply. Imagine being eight years old. You step into your new bedroom and you immediately smell sulfur. It's a vile smell and you look underneath your bed and you find a strange-looking little girl hiding in the corner. Well, to the researcher of the demonic Nathaniel Gillis, that was just the beginning. Soon came the footsteps outside of his door, stopping right before it entered and the disembodied voices

and a shadowy presence that followed him even beyond his home. But decades of research has led Nathaniel to an even more terrifying possibility. Demons, ghosts, shadow people, and even certain extraterrestrials may not be a separate phenomena at all, but just different masks worn by the same deceptive intelligence. From a child allegedly walking backwards up a hospital wall to ancient accounts of ghost-borne illnesses, this conversation is asking one question. When something appears to us, are we seeing it as it is, or only what it wants us to see? If you were interested in the demonic and alien encounters in shadow people and of course deceptive intelligence that may just connect them all, while you are in the right place.

So sit back, relax, and welcome to camp. Nathanielis, thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me on, buddy. I am so excited that you're here and also a little apprehensive because you are a phenomenologist. Some have described you on the internet as a demonologist. Correct. Some have even described it as a dermatologist. Unfortunately, yeah.

Two of those, I think, are more accurate. Absolutely. But I don't know about demonologists. But, no, I am fascinated by this topic. I am also a little nervous for the following reasons. I was raised very Catholic. And I still ascribe to the Catholic faith on a personal basis because I like it. It makes me feel good.

I like to pray the rosary. I like the elements of Catholicism as I've been brought up in them, and it is the way that I interface with my spirituality. As a result, I also have a deep-seated fear of demons and of the demonic. and of all things pertaining to spiritual warfare. They make me very nervous. And I grew up my entire life always being very scared of the occult. My mom would make references like,

don't ever do a Ouija board, don't ever do Bloody Mary in the mirror, don't ever, don't mess with this stuff because it opens a portal. And that's kind of just how I live my whole life. Now, to this day, I haven't really experienced anything truly inexplicable, except for those two instances I told you.

Which sounds like a complete paradox. I'm like, nothing ever happened except twice. But I did an episode with my friend Ethan where the light started to flicker in the studio. I've talked about it on the show. People can go look it up. I also did an episode with my friend Ralph Sarchie, who is a demonologist and also performed

and was, I guess, present for exorcisms where while he was speaking, a flash of light exploded right behind him, and no one caught it except afterwards on camera. So that's kind of my frame of reference coming into this. So my question to you, I guess, before we even really go down this journey, what is a demon in your world view?

in your worldview? My worldview. So my worldview would consider a demon to be an unclean spirit. And this kind of evolves into a deeper level of understanding where it's more than demons, but I'll start out with this. My tradition that I grew up in was essentially fallen angels made it with human women and created hybrid offspring. That biological avatar dies, the consciousness that

existed within it continues existing, and that would be called an unclean spirit. This is a reference to the book of Enoch? Absolutely, yeah, Genesis 6. Now, what's interesting about that worldview is that it's not limited to just an unclean spirit or what's called corpse pollution, which we can get in that too later on. But the ancient mine, especially the ancient Mediterranean mine, also included like versions of cryptids as demons and demonic. And it was kind of lumped into this one group of species or one species of being, and that was demons.

But to answer your question specifically, that would be an unclean spirit. Now, what is that, though? It would be some kind of mutated consciousness. And again, in the Eastern Mediterranean mind, there were people that died and they would kind of evolve, and others would die, and they would devolve. And so what you essentially have, whether we want it to be or not, you have this idea that some demons are mutated ghosts. That's where you get the term of Raphaim, which it has a double meaning. It means a phantom, a ghost, or a giant.

That's where you have kind of the merging of the avatar with the consciousness. The avatar is gone. Consciousness still exists in a post-bivological state. that is what they would consider to be a demon. Now, early on in my research, I kind of, I really delved into that heavily, and I looked at various scholarship, scholars, and I just kind of, I understood that, I believed it to a degree, but I think it's a, rather, it's an oversimplification of it. It's just consciousness, or it's mutated.

And once I got into possession cases, not just with the Vatican, even within Christendom and even Judaism, I kind of expanded my concept of the quote-unquote demonic outside of just the religious framework I inherited in my youth. And that's why I encourage people, if they ever want to get to the subject matter, look beyond that religious text or at least that cultural prism,

go into religious scholarship and see what their demonology has to say. So that's why I started out with the demon. And then I went into Judaism and the Shadim, and then I went into Islam with the Jin. And then I realized that it's the Valayan mechanism or belief, right, where that it's possible we're talking about the same entities. We're just using different terminologies for them. And so beyond all of the names that we have given them, there seems to be underlying pathologies that unite them throughout all of the world. And so above and beyond just the terms, there are behavioral footprints in the snow that lead me to believe that it doesn't matter what we call them.

These are just placeholders, right, for the unknown. Right. As Josh Kutche would say, placeholders. And so my point being is that I'm beyond terminology. Yeah, I know that's frustrating for many people because there's a lot of people that follow me or that used to in St. Athenio will just call them demons, demons, demons. And what I'm realizing is that more often than not, that's a conversation inter. Like, it's designed just to shut you up. Just say it's A, B, and C, and that's all we need to know. And that's never been true. I mean, matter of fact, if somebody wants to tell me their demons,

I get it, but I would have to say, okay, within what religious context? Right. And what kind, what interpretation? Because people approach this subject as if all of our ancestors agreed on what a demon was or it's ontology. And so that's why I encourage people to get into the epistemology of how do we know what we know? And can we believe it? Can we trust it? And that was kind of my origin story. And that's my at least one of my earliest ideas of what a demon is. Hey, real quick, most people who watch this channel aren't subscribed. And when you subscribe, you help the channel grow and you stay in the loop with every new drop. Religion camp, History Camp, and Camp Gagnon.

Now, let's get back to it. Now, you also had personal experiences with this phenomenon early on. Can you take me down that road? Yeah, so I was eight years old. My parents were touring a house that they were going to purchase, and they ended up purchasing it.

And my dad took me into my room and says, this is going to be yours. Figure out where you're going to put your PlayStation, your bed, you know, have your way. So I said, okay. I could still remember me crossing over the threshold. As soon as I walked into the room itself, there were two things that were alarming. Number one, I felt like I was being watched.

I don't know if you've ever felt that before. I'm sure your viewers have. Where you know you can't see anything, you can't see anybody, but you feel like you are being watched and not just watched. That's kind of another oversimplification. Like something is peering into your soul. It's seeing through you. And I remember that experiencing it, looking around like, this is really funky.

This doesn't feel right. Even at eight years old. Eight years old, yeah. It's very strange. In addition to that, there was a stench in the room. And it smelled like sulfur. And there was nothing in it. I mean, there was no, like, there was nothing rotting in the room itself.

It was very, it was staged. They had a bed in the corner. But other than that, it was perfect. It was clean. But that was another thing that I experienced. Now, did anyone else notice? the smell? No. So you're in there with your dad, maybe a real estate agent, and you're smelling this, and you're looking at them being like, did you make notice of it? Did you say anything?

Yeah. I said, it smells in here. What is this? I don't want to live in here. And they said, oh, no. They didn't notice it at all. Now, it's crazy because this is how the phenomenon is, this is how this intelligence operates, where you'll experience something, you'll see something, you'll hear something, and no one else will. It's like tailored for you specifically. And it's just something you have to live with, unfortunately. But it was at that point. And the smell you smelled. What did it smell? No, sulfur or something was rotting. It was rotten eggs, essentially. And like I said, I looked around. There was no reason for me to smell that. It just didn't make any sense. Now, I felt compelled, and I don't understand why, but I got on my hands and knees, and I looked

underneath the bed. And when I looked underneath the bed, there was a little girl, black hair, white dress, around maybe six or seven years old, my age at the time, around my age at the time. And when I looked at her, she moved her body all the way up to the wall. And I'm looking at her. And I'm just like, okay, pulled the blanket down, backed up, just walked out of the room, got in the car with my parents, asked them, or I didn't even ask him, I think I said something like, you know, I hope that little girl gets out of there because she's going to get in trouble if that realtor finds out that she snuck in there when they're trying to show this house. Originally, I believe that she belonged to the neighborhood. Well, I moved into the neighborhood.

I got to know Casey and Brooke and all of them and Lisa. I knew all the neighborhood kids. She didn't belong in the neighborhood at all. In fact, the person that was selling the house, it was a son, his parents had both died. And so it was like an estate cell. He's, you know, here you go. she didn't even belong in the family, much less the neighborhood. And that's when I kind of thought I was going crazy, to be very honest with you. You know, I'm thinking as a kid, I'm losing it, guys. First of all, I smelled something nobody else did, you know. I felt something nobody else felt, and then I see someone and nobody else saw.

And it was formative, but once we actually moved into the house, it got dark. and what I mean by that is I remember like maybe two months into it in the pregnant silence of the night I could hear the footfall of an entity in entity and it just sounded like somebody with work boots on displacing its weight in our living room we had wooden floors beautiful beautiful wooden floors that would just be creeping along and it would always it would intensify it would get louder and louder until it got all the way in front of my door. And then it would just completely dissipate. And then instead of hearing something,

I would feel it cross into my room. That was a traumatic time of my life. I had a lot of, I've had to go to therapy for that as an adult. And that's something I've never talked about on shows. But yeah, because whenever I get too deep in the research, that same emotional feeling of terror, loneliness. will haunt me and I'll have to disconnect from everybody. I've, you know, I've, I've not answer phone calls, researchers and experiencers,

you know, the thing you ignore me, I'm not ignoring you. I've got to, I've got to go. So. Now, when you spoke to a therapist about this, I'm presuming this is like a pretty standard issue, college-educated regular therapist, what do they make of this experience when you tell them? My doctor was amazing. He's a big Steiner fan. he was actually research of the paranormal.

But even then, he was like, yeah, I would have probably diagnosed you with severe depression. I forget the term you used, but yeah, severe depression. I was like, well, okay. Well, I know some people with depression. Right. They very rarely describe what you're describing. Oh, yeah, yeah, I completely get it.

Yeah, I don't know. I, it's crazy enough too, is I was going to a church at the time. And what was also deeply problematic was experience, the love and light aspect, right, of the paranormal, supernatural and church. Because you went to a charismatic church, you could say. Pentecostal, yeah, yeah, they were very strict.

So the women would not cut their hair. They couldn't wear pants, no television, you know, although I went to my grandma's house all the time. They had to wear skirts. Yeah, they wear skirts. When you say they can't wear pants, some people were like, wait, hold on. Hold on a minute, wait, let's go on here.

What kind of church is this? What kind of church? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they had to wear skirts. And at one point, and this is wild, the pastor's wife would take the women in the church into the bookstore and measure it, measure it. And if you were like off half an inch...

Show an ankle. Yeah, man. Wow. You were that closer to hell. So you tell your parents about these experiences. And your dad's a pastor. Well, he is, yeah. At the time.

Yeah, he was a minister, yeah, absolutely. So if I told my parents about this kind of experience, they would immediately be like, we need to get the house blessed, we need to get you in some type of, we need some type of religious institution, namely the Catholic Church, to come in and do something to remediate this. When you told them, what did they say?

My dad told me that he, there's a threshold covenant. And I love my dad, by the way. He's the best man I've ever known. So I'm not trying to shade him in a different way, in a strange way, but he was like, you know Nathaniel, if anything does come in here, I'll know about it. And I was like, well, you know about it now?

Because I'm telling you, there's something wrong here in this house. And it got to maybe a year into the house when he started noticing things. And it was so strange about this, and this has been an inquiry going on in parapsychology now for, God, must be 100 years. Is this the entity attached to a person or is it attached to a geographical location? or both if you leave the house, will it follow you or if the house, you know, that kind of thing. So my dad would experience it. It would always be when he went downstairs to the basement in a specific area of the basement. And that area was directly underneath my room. Very, very strange.

So the craziest part about my experience in that house was not the girl, the little girl. It wasn't the displacing of the weight of the entity. It was. just waking up. If I could get sleep, I would wake up suddenly and I would hear disembodied voices. Now people are going to say I'm crazy, that's fine. I get it. But disabodyed voices, brother, above my head

and they're talking to each other. It's like a conversation. It's almost like somebody that's underneath water or something underwater and they're talking and you can hear something, you can hear words, but you can't understand what they're saying. There's no articulation. That's what's going on with me.

And I would hear it sometimes, and I would just say, like, okay, that's really strange. And then I would go into a looping nightmare. Now, can I tell the story? Please. All right, because I know we've talked about it. I don't want to, you know. And this nightmare was not just a nightmare. People ask the question all the time.

How do you know if it's not just a dream? It might just be a dream. How do you know it's real? Well, I had no ability to get myself out of this. I mean, I would be induced to this nightmare. It was a looping nightmare where I'm walking into a shelter at a park where people have birthday parties, family reunions. And there's a picnic table. There are two young men.

I say young. I'm almost 40 now, unfortunately. So they're probably maybe 25. Anyways, they're on the picnic table. Both of them have their backs turned towards me. One has a needle in his arm. The other one is just looking around. Well, the one on the left.

turns around makes eye contact with me and smiles pulls out a black 357 magnet puts it in his mouth pulls a trigger when that happens i would wake up and there would be this presence in the room and the only way i can explain this was the room was saturated with consciousness a life form was in there with me in whatever that life form was it's what induced me into that looping nightmare. So there were times where I would wake up after the nightmare and I would see this cloud of darkness hovering in the corner of the room. And again, I have no frame of reference for this.

When I mean I was sheltered, I mean, they wouldn't even let me watch rush hour. Right. And I was a big rush hour fan. Yeah. It's unfortunate. It's also not a witchcraft movie. That's just it was just anything. Interracial crime fighting books.

I know, right? Yeah, Chris Tucker, Jackie, Jack. Who doesn't love Jackie Jack? Come on, man. So, but yeah, I had no frame of reference for that. I know even the guy across the street, he smoked marijuana, and I didn't know what that was either. I just thought it was a weird leaf, you know?

I mean, it was weird, but... So to see intense visions of self-harm would be... Self-harm, yeah. Strange at such a young age. Yes, yes. That, in addition to the needle, I didn't even know what insulin was until I began to take care of my late aunt, who had sugar diabetes. Point being, whatever that life form was,

it was changing its interface. It wasn't just a little girl. Well, I guess we'll get to that. Because when I started looking at this mentally and intellectually, I got about the age of like 12 years old, I'm still coexisting with this thing. And I'm asking myself, okay, I'm kind of tracking the trajectory of manifestations.

It was a little girl. Here's a shadow figure there, right? And then it was disembodied voices over there. Next thing you know, it's this cloud in the corner. and then why not I'm playing Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2. Hall of right. I love Tony all the time. I'm a 90s kid.

So killing that game, man. And Ronnie Mullins and I went and I turn from the screen to the window. And my eyes are adjusting to the darkness when I see this featureless shadow figure just staring at me. It's head turns like that. I freak out. So I've got this kind of archive of manifestations that I have experienced. and it would follow me. Another game, a video game reference.

One of my best friends of the world, Jacob Ward, we like to play Gold Knight. And so I would go over his house for a sleepover playing GoldenEye and whatever this thing was would follow me there. Same thing would be walking up the steps. And we're like nine years old, right? Was Jacob ever aware of this?

No. Did he ever see it? No. I never told him about it. I only stayed over there one night and I didn't want him to think I was weird or anything. anything. And that's if he did experience it. That's bad enough. But if he didn't experience it, and I did, he's going to think I'm crazy. Sure. And then I have to go home. I'm like,

okay, that's not fun. Point being is I had to go through the plethora manifestations. The funny I asked myself if I was actually dealing with different entities, which was unlikely. Hmm. Right. It's a shadow figure here. It's a disembodied voice here. It's a dark cloud over here. It's a little girl. And And then once I realized that that thing was actually following me and it wasn't just located in my home, the four walls of my abode, it was on me. That was an uncomfortable mental conversation. My point is, I kind of looked at all the manifestations and I came to the conclusion, just my personal perspective, that that was a singular intelligence. Those were just manifestations of one entity.

that was wearing various interfaces, tailored according to my worldview, according to my experience, even my age, and that I was not dealing with separate phenomena. I was dealing with phenomenon. So what... How does this dissipate in your early childhood? How it stopped was, there were two things going on.

Number one, the amount of terror and fear it was projecting was measured. I clocked it. There were nights where I would feel nothing at all. It was great. You know, I had school the next morning. Thank God I can get some sleep. And then out of nowhere, thoughts would come.

That feeling of vulnerability would make you, made me feel that big, like I'm just disappearing into darkness. And I determined after not just, analyzing the various manifestations and interfaces it used against me, I determine number one, we're going to have to coexist. You're not leaving me alone. I want you to, but you're not leaving me alone. And the sad part is, it's like, okay, if I take a shower, it's there.

If I go to bed, it's there. If I go downstairs to play drums, because I was a big drummer back of the day, not like, you know, famous for anything, but I love drums. And so it was there. I couldn't get rid of it. So finally I determined like, okay, if we're going to coexist, I'm going to learn. I'm just going to observe. I'm going to monitor.

And so at a certain time about maybe 12 or 13, I started monitoring my thoughts and my emotions. And that's when I realized, number one, why should I fear you? I don't understand you. But that doesn't mean I should fear you. Where is this fear coming from? Do I fear you because I don't understand you? Do I fear you because your horns and hooves? Then I determined it was, I fear you because you wanted me to.

That the terror I was feeling was not organic. Like I said, I had no frame of reference. I didn't even know what Casper was. Why should I be afraid? That was an emotion conjured by this entity. and projected onto me. And this is why when I mentor people, it's very rare when they do investigations. I'll mentor them sometimes.

There are certain entities that want you to fear them. It's not just a game. It's not just the quote-unquote trickster archetype that some of these beings will fabricate fear, projected onto you and then see if you agree with it. Do you believe you should fear me? And then the more you believed in that, the more powerful it became, the more authority it has. And I know I'm using these kind of religious adjacent terms here. But that's really what it was for me.

And so I realized that it's okay to feel the fear. It's not okay to be afraid. Those are two different things. And so I would essentially build up a wall emotionally to where when I would feel the fear, I would stop it before it entered here. year before I agreed with it. So it was almost a coping mechanism. I'm not saying it worked every time. I'm saying that it at least allowed me to coexist long enough to where I was able to reestablish my relationships with my family. But getting back to the phenomenology, I asked myself, again,

are these separate entities or are they separate? And I didn't have the terminology then, right? I somewhat have it now. I don't know everything, obviously. And I have more questions and answers, but to me that these were interfaces. What this entity was doing was going through the cultural costumes of my mind, using that and pulling it over itself. And then making me think that these are separate entities when really they were almost like characteristics or traits of one life form. And that was the source. springboard, the origin story that got me into the field, and that's what really got me hyper-focused. I mean, everybody has their own interest, right?

You know that, brother. All these researchers have their different niches. I have always been interested and hyper-focused on what I call interface events. When the being manifests to you, what's actually going on. Why? Because that's what I experienced more than anything else. fellas this episode is sponsored by blue chew look life is about preparation you got to prepare for a camping trip for your job for a podcast and you got to prepare it for all of the things happening in your life

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and important safety information. Thanks so much, Blue-choo. Let's get back to the show. Now, I've spoken many people on the show that describe UFO alien encounters and some of which are somewhat banal where they say, right, I'm sitting on my porch

and I see this sort of light in the sky, and it kind of moves in a strange way, then it goes away. Others are remarkably intense, where they're fully abducted, where they're in their room and this being sort of comes through the wall and then manipulates the surroundings and talks to them and says that they'll be there when they die and things like this that are very heavy.

And they go, it's aliens. Right. Now, to me, I'm like, I wonder if that is just them coming up with a label in a term to describe this type of phenomenon. and that aliens perhaps is a label that we're putting on it in the way Jacques Ville will talk about it. And you have a great quote in one other podcasts that you did where you said that people are mythologizing the mask.

100%. That this sort of unified consciousness is in some way interfacing with people in different masks and different forms throughout generations to different people throughout generations. And they give them different labels and different names, but it's all kind of this underlying same phenomena. And the current one,

that most people are dealing with or that is very popular is aliens. Would you say that many alien abduction stories could be referencing the same sort of phenomenon? Again, not to use the D word, not to say it's demonic, but that perhaps there is a, in certain cases, some type of insidious or sinister kind of underbelly. There is a sinister underbelly to it, and there has been a carefully curated narrative in the field to stop these accounts from being heard. And I realize that's a controversial position to take, and I know that, and so people are going to likely say

Nathaniel Gillis is a dumer. I'm not. I just, I've talked to many abductees. I've worked with him. I know them. And that behind closed doors and skiffs and inside of NDAs, that these stories are being heard, they are being told. And the problem is, and we talked about this earlier, my friend,

where uphology is primarily based on instrumentation. We have radar, we have sonar, we have video evidence, we have photographic evidence, we captured them, we scientifically measured them. The issue is that there is no instrumentation to measure their intentions with us. And as much as uphology consists of something in the sky, we're realizing now, and we have for the longest time, those of us who did the work, that there is a sting in its tail. It's not limited to do what's in the sky.

It's actually something's actually coming home with you. And whatever that is, is virtually antithetical to what you thought you were experiencing. So where people would say that's an extraterrestrial flying a craft, okay, but what actually hijacks you, because it's a very fact. people say hitchhiker. What comes home with you are apparitions, disembodied voices, shadow figures, polterguised activity. And so people will simply say, okay, well, that's the hitchhiker effect. Now, and I get that, and we'll get Nicole McCullochers work here shortly. But again, I think that model is also incomplete. This is why I'm such a fan of Dr. Carla Turner's work because she was one of the few who was willing to shoot straight with us, no matter how controversial it was, or, well, I didn't

get a conference or a contract, she was willing to put the data out there and say, look, here's what we have. This is what we know, this is what we don't. And one of the things she talks about was this idea that there really isn't, like, there is the hitchhiker effect, but it's not what we think it is. In other words, a lot of her abductees were actually being malevolently haunted before they were abducted by quote-unquote aliens. So who's hijacking who here? So essentially, where before you would have something in the sky, extraterrestrial, and then ghosts go home with you.

Now it's literally no ghosts are with you in the house, and then you're abducted by extraterrestrials. So what ends up happening is this, it's kind of, again, it's James Lackatsky's work, where you're like, well, maybe these categories don't exist. Maybe we are being told they exist by the phenomenon. Now, the idea here, though, is that when these entities manifest to us, they will use interfaces. They will appear as divine figures, religious figures, deceased loved ones, apparitions of the dead.

They'll appear as Mother Mary. They'll appear as a Swedish Presbyterian version. version of Jesus, right, not the first century Jewish Messiah, something different that fits into the cultural architecture of the time. That is an interface. And what my colleague, Steve Mer and I have been doing now, are we're looking for what I call scenes in the dream. What do I mean by that? When we are interfacing with entities, these beings have the ability to hijack consciousness to induce people into dreamlike states into theta brain wave activity to where you are being induced in this kind of stupor and it's very suggestive and next thing you know and i had one instance

it's crazy but this woman had an entity that was a shadow figure to the side of her but then when it moved in direct line of her eyesight it was able to fix its form and now it looked like her husband. And I knew that was a behavioral pattern, a data point in the research, and I've been kind of hitting that home in many of my interviews. And then out of nowhere, Eric Davis does a lecture at contact in the desert. And he says that with respect to Jen, which another category, unfortunately, with respect to Jen, that they will not have form until you observe them.

And then once you lock eyes with them, it will fix their form. What are we doing? We have to observe them for them to have that particular form. So there is this connection of consciousness. It's almost like the observer effect in us interacting with them and actually co-creating the manifestation, the interface, the mask that they pull over themselves. It's the little girl underneath the bed. And how are they accessing these masks from our consciousness?

I don't know. Paul St. Clair and I were talking about this about a year ago when I was on a show where we don't know if it's technology or if it's a personal trait. Like it's just something that they're organically blessed with. It's something they have within them. Our fantasy commission says for him it's all about the friendships. Cute, Kevin. But I disagree. Like with Bet365.

I get paid the second my team goes up big with early payout and can cash out at any time before the game ends. No hard feelings, Kevin. Just faster payouts from Bet365. The home of winning early. Must be 19 and older. Ontario only. Please play responsibly.

If you were someone you know is concerns about gambling, visit connectsontario.ca or call 18665 through 1-2600. Terms and conditions apply. We're able to get it from your brain. Yes, to pick out of your consciousness. They'll go through all of the inter... Now, this gets back into John Keel's work, where he suggested that, you know,

that these beings will go through different masks and manifestations now changes. You can go through Alexander the Great when in his diary he's talking about seeing a flying shield. Then you go to Kenneth Arnold and it's a flying disc, right? What are we dealing with? We're dealing with placeholders. Now, Alexaer the Great talks about a flying shield.

Yeah, flying shield. Could you pull that up? That is wild. I've never heard that before. Yeah. That is remarkable. It's crazy. Wow.

So as far as, I guess, these grays being masks, is there a UFO abduction story that you could reference that you feel like would be maybe something that you feel like would be kind of more in line with your model here, rather than the classic kind of like. Yes. Yeah, we got probed and aliens and came back up. Yeah, but dealing with the interface, it's fascinating. Dr. Colterner, in her book, Into the Fringe, she's dealing with multiple abductees, one of which was Pat and her sister Rose.

Both of them were abducted at the same time, but they had different descriptions of the entities that abducted them. Hmm. Absolutely fascinating. Not just different entities, different shapes. Now, they were grays, but they were wider, some were skinner. Like, I think Pat said they were wider and the Rose said they were skinny. One of them actually saw the entities with Chinese rice hats. song.

Hmm. Yeah. Why would a gray be wearing a Chinese rice hat? I don't know. So what we're looking at, though, at least within my model, we're looking at seems in the dream where the interface is that these beings will often manifest, they don't get it right all the time. There are glitches.

And with respect to that earlier case of the woman, the entity assaulted her, induced her to a dreamlike state, assaulted her. And she said, I felt like I was in a stupor. And she said, after everything was said and done, it moved to the left again. And Eric Davis's concept of mine as well, where you're not walking onto it, therefore it's not really holding its form. And out of nowhere, it turns into the shadow figure again. And she's realizing, first of all, their facial features are not holding anymore. You are not my husband.

And at the same time, all the memories that she had prior to the stupor flood her mind again. And she realized, of course, you know my husband because my husband. has been here the whole time. She didn't remember it. So what we're dealing with is the complete hijacking of consciousness to the point where people are being victimized. And here's where it gets dangerous, victimized by worldviews. And your point of mythologizing the mask, if in fact we are dealing with a singular life form,

a singular species, perhaps, that are manifesting as various entities, it's the ghost, it's the alien, it's the demon, it's, you know, all that. it's possible that we have mythologized those masks inso much as we are creating different fields of research to research and investigate that interface, not realizing that we're not really studying the entity, we're studying just the mask at war when it was interfacing with us, when it was around us. And I'll give you an example. It's a lot like orbologies, so it's another one of those ologies is strange, where people see orbs and homes, and they're like, okay, it's fascinating.

and some people suggest that they're all just flax of dust. I don't believe that. I've seen an orb. So you're looking at a corpuscular ball of light like that, okay? And sometimes they're as big as that. And Dr. Barry Taft's case, Doris Bither, San Pedro Hunting, Jackie Hernandez, Lord Orbach's case studies is another parapsychologist. These balls of light have the ability to project apparitions.

So a physiological construct, in other words, you would see it as an orb and then out of the orb you would see like an apparition of something that's animated and it would be human-like you would just do it would be animated walking around and stuff well what happened was early on is that we did not know that the orbs could do that and so it took people like lloyd orbach where he had one case where they kept seeing a lady in white and then they realized that there was on camera there was an orb so you'd have had to the apparition that's witnessed with your eyesight, the naked eye, then you'd have an orb following it. And so I took that early on in my research.

I thought, that's pretty wild. Why are they both there at the same time? And then I got a hold of Dr. Barry Taft's case with Doris Bither and Jackie Hernandez, where they had one orb that projected. He, they quartered it. It was a lime green orb in the room. It's popping off this EMF breeding. and then out of nowhere here is a half of a man an apparition

and he's just looking around at them. And so that collectively, that moved parapsychology into the area of believing that some of these, at least some of these apparitions are being projected by orbs. The problem with that is if we didn't know that, first of all, because of that, we went and created entire mythologies

surrounding the apparition, not realizing that many of them were projections of balls of light. That is an example of mythologizing the mask. So a woman in white appears to a person, but on the camera it is an orb. Yeah. Because the camera doesn't have consciousness.

Doesn't believe it can't. It doesn't mean that the camera cannot be manipulated. I know Trey Hudson, this is wild too. Trey Hudson, who has what's called the Meadow Project, He and his team went out at an undisclosed location. They're researching. They're investigating the property. And they have this reading, this camera that's monitoring.

What is it called now? It's monitoring a reading. It's a heat sensing camera. And a thermal image. That's what it was. And they're looking at this researcher, this investigator. They've got him on the radio. brother. Hello. You there? Yeah, I'm here. Okay. Why? Because we're seeing you with our eyes and you look like you. But on thermal imaging, you're an orb.

Hmm. Blows my mind. So now what that means, though, again, is that there is, there's the entity, there's the substrate, and then there's the interface. And I'm not sure that we've only seen the interface. And I'm not sure that we've only seen the interface. face and never truly seen the entities. I say that because there are so many cases throughout history where the being will manifest, it will appear to be an entirely different species, and then you get close to it. It's not. It will change its shape. And this is something that I've been talking about as of late too, where it will hide its function behind form. Not just that, but its origin. James is one of Dr. Collar Turner's abductees. He was being a cause did by a Pleiadian. How did you know she was Pleiadian? Because she appeared to be a Pleiadian. When you say Pleiadian, you mean? Is it an extraterrestrial? Yeah, from Pleiades.

A gray, perhaps, or something? No, no, a woman, a woman. And, but he's like, she's a, I won't say assaulted, but they were, like, kissing or something. And she appeared to be Pleadian until he got close to her. And then he realized, like, again, these are seams in the dream, glitches in the matrix where the interface could not hold its form. It's hiding its form. It's trying to convince you, at least in this particular case, that it's from another planet. It wasn't. It was something completely different.

So there are cases like that, but my colleague, Steve Mayer and I, what we're trying to do is we're looking for seams in the dream. Instances where the phenomenon glitches in and out long enough for these experiencers to to regain free will and their own autonomy to push back. Now, the reason we're doing that, the reason this is germane to the conversation is because it's not just entities that are weaponizing our perception of them. UFOs are too. If you go to Gary Nolan's case, Dr. Gary Nolan's case, he had a case study in France

where a mother and her children in her car, they see a craft in the sky. Mother photographs it. The children describe what they see. What they saw with the naked eye was completely different than what was captured on camera. What was captured on camera? It is a star-like object, a star. And what are these?

Not like a star, but like a metallic star-shaped object. And what do they see? Something completely different. They didn't give a description, but it was completely different than that, they said. So I guess this lightly answers the next question that I'm always curious about when it comes with,

to this topic or to UFOs or UAPs where I say, look, we're living in borderline of surveillance state, right? Everyone's got a phone in their pocket. We got flock cameras everywhere. There's home security systems you can pick up for 50 bucks. Like, why haven't we just captured some type of definitive proof of this? And I guess to your point, like if these things can kind of mask and manifest differently based on consciousness,

then perhaps they appear differently on camera. So then I'm curious, is there any video footage that you've seen that you feel like is compelling in this regard? I got to be very transparent. I've looked at the evidence that they've released regarding disclosure, and a lot of it has either been debunked or it's old. What about personal cases of people describing hauntings or poltergast activity? Yeah.

Yes, I have. Yes, I have. And I saw one photograph. This was at an investigation at a bookstore in Dayton. where I'm from, and I didn't even know it was haunted. It's fascinating. But we did investigation. Anyways, point being, originally when I got there, I'm looking for books. I'm a book reader. And I love books. So I'm looking around the paranormal section, all that.

And I realized, like, they had a huge paranormal section. I'm like, oh, my God. So I start talking to the owner there. And this is one of the most convincing photos. This is before AI, by the way, before Photoshop and all that. And I said, okay, we got into discussion. And I was like, okay, how did you get into paranormal? She goes, I didn't believe in goes. She goes, I bought this place.

It's an old joint, you know, it's an old building. She said, I was mopping one night. And she said, I heard a kid laugh. And she said, I turned around and in the mop water on the floor, I saw little footprints. She said, so I got my camera and I felt compelled to take a picture. I took a picture. And just as I did, there was an apparition of a little boy peeking around. the bookshelf. And I saw the photograph. It was a translucent apparition. But to your question,

yeah, I've seen a lot of that. But here's the problem. And getting back to the instrumentation, parapsychology has taught us that as much as the phenomenon can manipulate a perception of it, it can manipulate instrumentation as well. So it's not just okay. It appears to be differently than it does to a camera. It's more than that. It's deeper than that. Whatever we're dealing with, has the ability to shut down technology. It will drain phone batteries. It will drain iPod batteries or iPad batteries and all that. If not that, it will fly an orb over a recorder and transplant audio to it without even.

Sometimes they'll take, like Steve Merrill will take the tape out, place the tape over here, the recorder over here, and or will fly over the tape. and it will actually record audio. Now, here's a data point that is rather disturbing, that it has been proven now for a long time that just because it appears to us as Deer and Adna, it may not be Deer and Edna. Okay, just like the Hit Tracker effect, just because it appears as a deceased child

doesn't mean it really is. It could very well be an interface. It could be a mask. This entity's using to, interact with us. So we understand that, that we have to push back on the form all the time. And just as we understand that, and just as deceitful as it is in that regard, it's also deceitful DVPs. These beings, or whatever they are, will want to sound human. It's a DVP?

EVPs, electronic voice phenomena. Okay. So essentially, and this happens not just with recorders, it's on cell phones, anything that can record audio where they have different classes. There's like Class A EVPs. Those are literally like a podcast. I have a buddy of mine who he captured Class A EVPs, sent it in to an acoustic engineer and the engineer got angry at him.

He said, listen, there are no EVPs here. I can, if they are, I can't hear them over you talking. And that's when this paris psychologist said, no, that's the EVP. So we have those Class A EVPs. We have some other classes that are less convincing. What's in this audio recording? Human sounding voices, just like human-looking spirits, human-sounding voices. But what are they saying?

Like, what is the content of that? Oh, my God. All kinds of stuff. All kind of stuff. I know Steve sat cases where he'll put up a camera on a tripod and a voice will say, it's a camera, it's a camera. I did an investigation at the Brownlee Cottage or the Brownella cottage in Ohio where immediately when we got in there,

activity popped up. And this is wild to me because I was greeted first by a woman in the EBP. And she said, hello, Nate. And it took me by surprise. I mean, we were in there for about maybe five minutes, you know, pressed record and there we go. And then after that, a man came in. and greeted me and then we asked like, okay, like, do you have any questions for Nathaniel?

And the woman began to speak and then she was cut off immediately by the man. Interrupted her. And he said, I've got it. And then he goes into ask me, you know, like, how are you doing? Where are you from? That kind of thing. The problem, my point is that just as they like to mimic human spirits, they also like to sound human. The problem, though, with that is parapsychology, especially with Steve Merriberry Fitzgerald's work. Acoustic engineers have actually compared and contrasted their voices on recorders to actual human voices, and they're registered completely different. One is an actual human voice. The other one is something that simply sounds like it to the naked ear, but isn't.

My point, though, is that manipulation and deception is profoundly present with this intelligence. Not just that, but Robert Bigelow, he recently launched his own podcast. And for those who don't know, River Bigelow, he was the first owner, at least the very, not the first, that was Terry Sherman and the other one before that. He was one of the first owners of Skinwalker Ranch, and he had created Niz, the National Institute of Discovery Science, and Colm Callum Callagher. And they've got like tons of PhDs. They're setting up shop and they're investigating whatever this phenomenon is. And in addition to that, they were having the hitchhiker effect, people going home with apparitions. and, you know, then we get into Axelrod and the whole lot of books written about it.

My point, though, is that they were running experiments. And Robert Bigelow actually pulled one of the security guards aside and said, okay, you know, if you're, when you get back home, like in Las Vegas or something, I want to run an experiment with you. I would like you to get on your phone or on your camera and just snap a photo in your room. in your room, boom, boom, boom. Don't even think about it. Just do it.

You don't even have to feel anything. You don't have to feel a watch. Just take a picture. And initially he did. And a couple times he didn't get anything. But at one time, he captured the bed. But that was it. What even captured the bed?

In other words, the photons that left the camera, they moved all the way up to the end of the bed. And then something was stopping them. Like if you're sitting in, like where was he saying? Yeah, he's in bed and he takes a picture of the bed in front of him, right? And it should show the bed in the rest of the room. Right. It should show the bed, the wall, the chest of the drawers, the mirror. It stopped. There was something that stopped the photograph at the end of the bed.

And we don't know what that is. What was that space on the photo? Was it just black? Black. Yeah. Didn't exist. So what that means is that that, There are countermeasures, and I use the term phenomenon loosely. I know it's an umbrella and it's an oversimplification. I get it. But I'm looking for vocabulary here. Now, in the case where you're talking about the EVP,

when you're in the room, you're there with whom? Like, is it just one other person? I didn't fully track the- Oh, yeah, that team was with Annie Tarpley. She's in Ohio. So who was in the room with you? It was Annie Tarpley and her research team. And so you start speaking and someone, you hear it in your ears?

No, no, no. We had a device that was recording it and we're playing it. So we would say something, record that, and record another one, and it would come through. And then sometimes they have another device that it'll, it sounds like white noise, and then you can hear voices coming through. It'll punch through the white noise and it sounds human. Now, were you talking during the recording that you had? Talking to it, yes.

But I wasn't talking anybody else, no. You were talking to it. To it. So nobody's talking. Like literally, everybody is sitting still. Then it's, okay, and this is what Annie did. Is anybody there? Is anybody there?

Would you like to talk to Nathaniel? And then a voice would come. Hi, Nate. And would you hear it? Yeah, we would all hear it. It wasn't, like, it wasn't AirPods. Everybody there heard it. And where was it coming from?

We don't know. But, like, where in your field of sort of spatial awareness? It was coming out. out of the device. Hmm. Yeah. And then it's on the device. On the device.

Are these recordings available somewhere? I don't know if Andy Topley still has them. It's been since, that was 2019. And what did this voice want to talk to you about? Didn't, that's all it's all it said. Hi, Nate. Yeah, hi, Nate. And then you said there's an interruption.

Yeah, so the woman started up again to say something and the man said, I've got it. On the recording. On the recording, yeah. Now, again, we don't know. know what they are. And I like, I like how the late Paulino frames this. We don't know what, when, or I said, what, where, or when they are. That's how little we know of what is going on here. Point being, though, is that we constantly find deception with these things over and over and over again.

Ted Rice was a psychic medium and Dr. Turner wrote about this in her book, Master, Esquerade of Angels, where he was a psychic medium for many, many years. He had trained psychic mediums. And these psychic mediums had their own guides. When out of nowhere, he starts realizing that, okay, I'm suffering from PTSD symptoms. I need some help. He goes to Barbara Bartholic and Dr. Turner. And out of nowhere, come flooding out of him, these memories of being taken as a child

along with his grandmother. And then he, this is by extraterrestrial. and then he goes to his friends who are psychic mediums and their guides start to reframe and sterilize the trauma he experienced from the ETs, which is strange, very strange. Matter of fact, they were in contact with an entity called Volmo and they didn't really trust Volmo.

Volmo would sometimes lie to them and then Ted would go to these individuals who had guides, and the guides would say, listen, Volmo's, this is fascinating. He has a discarnate interplanetary spirit. What? And so what you have here, beyond, again, beyond the manifestations, the interfaces, then you go into the terms that are being employed,

guides, an extraterrestrial, and then you have the ghost, discarnate beings. Well, my point is this, that where and when Ted Rice's guides that he had been working with for 40 years should have been there when he remembered his abduction. They were eerily silent, had nothing to say. And so then he would go find somebody who had guides, and then those guides would sterilize his traumatic experience.

That's what we're seeing more often than not in the field, too, where you have people that suffered at the hand of abductions. and it's being reframed as, well, you must have made a sole contract with these beings. Or, and this is an interesting one, too, that they did think to you because you must have put that out in the universe. It's ridiculous. I don't like that because, you know, you're not, I don't like blaming the victim. Now, when you say guides, you mean other entities. It is that, yeah, they appear to be guides. In other words, and I had another experience with a research or a remote viewer that had guides, which we can get into.

second but yeah entities that would say things like you know mark you know i'm going basically what it'll do sometimes appear to you in your dreams it'll impress you with foreknowledge like listen you're going to get that promotion or you know you're going to go out on a date next week and then it ends up happening and it kind of gains your trust and it's it's interesting because my buddy steve has a friend of his um don who has a guide and This guide knows a lot. And it's not like a figment of imagination. Steve would call Don, and you'd hold a pocket watch.

And he would say, Don, ask, I forget what her name was, the guide's name, ask her what I'm holding. And she would say, you're holding a watch, Steve. You're holding a watch. How? I don't know. I don't know how they know. But like, where would the sound come from?

Yeah. Oh, he called him. He called Don on the phone. He's like, I want you to test her, you know, kind of make sure, you know, if she's really, The voice would come through the phone line. He would speak for her. Becky. Becky, Becky was her name.

Becky, Becky, Becky wants to know. Yeah, what do you say one time? Hi, Steve. How you doing? Doing really good. Okay. Becky wants to know how your bath was earlier. You enjoy it?

Steve's like, how did you know you? I took a bath. I don't know. Becky said, really weird stuff. The point, though, is we don't even know what those are. And in some cases like Ted Rice is where they built trust with this man. through years of giving him insights and revelations. And I don't want to say prophecies,

because that's kind of weird in this context. And then out of nowhere, when it's almost like when the new interface was installed, the extraterrestrial, the old one was superseded. And it was almost like the, at least in just theorizing here, It was like the guide archetype or the guide interface was designed to get you in touch with the other. And then when the other arrived or when it was realized, the guide is no longer needed. And that's the problem we're seeing too, is this idea that we're not dealing with different entities and manifestations.

We're dealing with just this one umbrella, one thing or one species that's masquerading as all of the others. And I think that there is something to that And I don't want, I tend to just go on and on, you know So just, you know, I'll kind of summarize it with that. Hey guys, we're going to take a break really quick because it's summertime. And I got to tell you something. There's a specific point every summer where you realize that your entire personal style has just been like the same jacket or the same pair of shoes.

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want something subtle or you want a piece that completely changes your outfit, GLD makes it easy to upgrade your style without having to overthink it and of course without having to break the bank. And great news, for a limited time, if you are listening to this right now, if you are a camper, going to get an insane deal. When you use the code camp, C-A-M-P, you're going to get 40% off at glde.com. 40% off with the code camp at glde.com. And after you purchase, they're going to ask how you heard about them. Make sure you tell them that Mark increased us from the campsite sent you. Now let's get back to the show. I guess I'm curious, what is the precise evidence you would say that would make you think that they are different things? Like if we're going to buy in and say,

like, okay, there's poltergeist, there's orbs, there's, you know, aliens. Let's say all three of these things exist, why could it not be the case that one person has experiences with multiple? Why is it the case that they are three different things manifesting, but actually one thing underneath it? Oh, well, because we have aliens abducting people in shadow people or in hauntings, and then we have shadow people abducting people and aliens and hauntings, or we have aliens, gray's manifesting in seances, or UFOs manifesting in seances. That happened at the Skull Experiment, where they were actually told by the entity,

we want you to place a tripod in a room, press record, and then get out of the building until the next day. And they came back in the building, they ended the recording, replayed the video, and there is what they called Mr. Blue staring at them. It was an alien gray. Alien Gray. The issue, though, is it's not just imagery here. It's what they're made of. Okay.

So they have this recording? Absolutely. Look it up. Mr. Blue, Skoll experiment. He's shaking and said, yeah, he's probably already there. So, yeah, this happened in Skoll, England. What year? 90s.

There was multiple experiments, so I can't just say one year. So initially, it's called a Skull experiment, but it happened through, I think it was, It's the 90s. And why would this entity just want to be filmed? I don't know. But what's really unique about that particular case study is that, okay, so you have apparitions. Okay. That's one category.

Then you have guides. That's another. Then you have alien grays. Then you have ghosts. Okay. In the skull experiment, they were actively in contact with what's called the spirit team. And then they were in contact. with quote unquote deceased scientists that were trying to assist them in their experiment.

And then it was the discarnate, the son that's trying to communicate to his mother. And then out of nowhere, it's the, it's it's your guides that they were in contact with. Okay. And and then and then next thing you know, it's in, okay, picture this. An apparition of a gray, not a flesh and blood gray, an apparition. It's just in hauntings. No. What it did was it took all of these interfaces horizontally. This is this, this, this is.

Turn it on its head, collapsed them into one. Now you have, this happened. You have an apparition of an alien gray that was claiming to be a guide. Three of them wrapped up in one. Hmm. And this. happens a lot of times too and even within our federal government where once they opened up that portal they could not stop whatever was coming through and that's when they had to for their own good

shut the experiment down now what's so crazy about that case study um is the the complete annulment of reality it was It was just transcended. So case in point, they're sitting in this room. It's pitch black. They have parapsychologists there. They have researchers there and they have witnesses. And imagine an entire universe, cosmos, is in the air.

So you see just stars and it's crazy. It's fascinating when they described it. And shooting, you know, shooting. stars here. Next thing you know, it slowly descends down upon the table. You ever been to one of those museums where you go in there and you see like they have like the planets and stuff? Yeah. Yeah. And then out of all of the lights, not all of all planets, there was one small light that it was moving. All the others were stationary. This one was moving. And then it would shoot a light down onto the table. Sometimes it would shoot a light down on the person's arm.

Well, Robin Foy was one of the people that was the main guy in the experiment, and one of the researchers said, Robin, can you give me permission? I want to reach out and touch this ball of light. And he said, fine, go ahead. And so he's capturing in his hand, and it's going through his hand and his body, and it's wild stuff. My point being is that you have these cases where it's not, the guide. It's not the apparition. It's not the extraterrestrial. It's not a buffet. It's literally all of them that were turned on its head pushed back into just one manifestation. And that one manifestation represents all the others. I'm an apparition of an alien and gray and now I'm your guardian. What do you make of transmediumship? Things like the Council of Nine, the raw tapes. You know, I think it's fascinating. also did you get a picture of mr blue there you go buddy 98 this is the video that's just the if you roll the video what happens just staring at us huh and there's a lot of all right look here's

i had to learn this the hard way i thought i understood the skull experiment right uh growing up in the states I watched the documentary, you know, I read the books and all that. When I election in England and I met some of these people, and there's a lot of data that was never released to us in the States. It's kind of sanitized. What ended up happening was initially, I should say, it was the books were published as a way to say, okay, you know, we made contact. It was love and light.

We experimented and we experienced. It was amazing. And then at the very end of the experiment, they realized that they had opened up a portal that they could not close and entities were coming out one by one by one by one by one and they couldn't shut it.

So the only thing they could do was to turn the lights on completely in the experiment. But then there was also a move to where nobody wanted to write a book about it to say, hey, listen, it was not all of a light because they already established

that it was. And so it was kind of, it's an interesting thing. That was the skull experiment? That was the skull experiment? S-C-O-L-A, yeah. So what are we dealing with though? I again, I think we have placeholders for something that enjoys playing roles. And the problem, though, is, like I said, that we are severely limited as a species, and we focus on form.

Now, one of the examples that I give, and he could pull this up too, is the Iranian spider-tailed viper. What is that? That is a snake. Okay. What it does, it's exactly what I believe the phenomenon does. know people are going to say phenomenon Nathaniel I know lacking vocabulary here what this snake will do is first of all it realizes okay it loves birds that's his primary prey it loves birds birds love spiders so that appendage if you can show the video of this this is absolutely

incredible what it will do is it will it will is it will the appendage is it a the appendage itself, the very tip of its tail, it looks like a spider. It moves like a spider. Here we go. I'm not even going to, pseudo-g, I'll murder that first word. There it is. Look at that. This is unbelievable.

There it is. Is that not creepy? That's not a spider. Wow. So what he's doing is he's diversifying itself. Get passionate now, brother. He's diversifying it. itself. Why? Because he knows that that bird is going to see a spider. He's going to think that

that spider has limitations that spiders have. He will approach that spider as prey, not realizing that that spider is the predator. That is a singular intelligence masquerading. Lurril. Lurril. bring that bird into belief. I'm going to treat you as if you can't do A, B, and C. When in reality, what you're hungry for is actually hungry for you. And that's why I tell people that in many cases that we are not the conjurers, the phenomenon is conjuring us by diversify. We mythologize the mask.

That's what's going on there. And by the time that bird dive bombs, he latches on. to what he thinks is, oh, that's cool. But what is it realizes, yes, that intelligence diversified itself. It's the orb that appears in apparition. Right. Are these things ever good? Things.

I think people have had good experiences with them at times. Sure. I mean, like, if we're using this kind of example of like an expert sort of hunter, or even think of a fisherman that's using different bait to catch different fish, right? Like, as humans, we are an intelligence. intelligence that puts different bait to try to get different things and different types of lures to catch different types of fish. And perhaps a fish could come and eat the bait and not get

hooked. And that fish goes away thinking like, oh, nice, I caught some food. And maybe they see the line and maybe they're like, oh, yeah, these lines give us free food. That's awesome. But then every now and again, they get snacked. So is it the case that some of these people are having experiences where they're good, but they're ultimately evil or nefarious? Well, I think there, well, there are some cases where people believe it was love and light and then later on they suffer. Do you have an example? Yeah, Ted Rice. He's the same guy I was talking about earlier where, oh my God, okay, let's break it down.

So he's a psychic medium. He starts going through PTSD symptoms, goes through memory regression, come to find out that he was, okay, so he's like eight or nine years old, he was staying the night at his grandmother's house. Our fantasy commission says for him it's all about the friendships. Cute, Kevin, but I disagree. Like with Bet365. I get paid the second my team goes up big with early payout and can cash out at any time before the game ends.

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Or call 1866 5 through 1,2600.600. Terms and conditions apply. Now, consciously, he remembers a disembodied voice. Now, where does that come from? That's in hauntology. A disembodied voice begins to speak to him and his grandmother in the room. He starts crying. She starts rebuking it.

Okay, the grandmother. And he's hiding underneath the covers, crying, and she's rebuking it. And it finally leaves, right? And then he asks her what was that? And I believe she said something, it was the devil son, go back to bed, it's okay. Well, later on in life, he realizes that that was not the extent of the experience. That the reason that memory is so traumatic for him is because they were both abducted. They were both taken.

And in the middle of this abduction, and again, this is the dawning of the interface. You have the entity, the substrate, the interface. where the entities were trying to do something to his grandmother. And that grandmother was basically, you know, I've only known one man. It's my ex-husband, my husband, not my ex-hus, my husband, but he's dead now, you know, and you're not my husband. And the entity went into a room, came back out as her husband. Wow. Just, again, literally pulled it right over his face and was like, okay, what are you going to do now?

And Tim learned this from the grandmother. She told this to him. Yeah. So what it, yeah, he's clocking her, right? Again, looking through the ar, archive of imagery, which one will you give consent to? And here's another data point that people need to understand. It's not just that it's manifesting to us as anything. It's manifesting to us as what we're most likely to believe in. And I'll kind of stretch that out in a second.

My point, though, is that that experience was more profound, way more meaningful than he originally thought, because she rebuked the entity. The entity laughed and really bad things happen. In matter of fact, the entity went to do something to Ted, and she stood in the middle of him and said, absolutely not. You're not going to do that to my grandson. And he said, okay, because you've done this, I'm going to put something in your head. You are going to die. And the next morning, I believe it was, she had an aneurysm. Passed away, I believe you. And did Ted see the manifestation or the apparition as his grandfather? Absolutely, yeah.

Despite his grandfather being dead. Mm-hmm. They play roles. Does he remember that in his conscious, like, waking memory? Was that through the regression? This is through regression. So when you kind of add all these pieces together, again, if people are going to say the fan of Dumer, I'm not, I don't really know what I'm at this point.

I know that I don't have all the, I mean, I don't have all the inches, obviously, and I don't even have as many inches that I started out with. I have questions, and the questions that I have now are not the questions. I began with. And perhaps that's the whole point of this, right? To ask better questions. It's like Abraham Marshall said. He was doing a lecture at King University. And they asked him, I said, okay, what's the definition of a good teacher? He said, a teacher is not the one who gives you all the answers. A teacher is the one who gives you all the questions. And that's why I believe that the field is evolving to a place where we are, we're acquiring differently. This may not have anything to do

with what we think it might have to do with reality and our co-creation of it. Co-creating the interface. See, it's not just that it gives images and interfaces, it's the idea that we're helping it. Right. What are the most famous cases, if you were to speak with like an absolute skeptic?

Is there a prominent case or a case that you've worked on specifically, or even one that you've heard about, that you would reference and say, this, I think, is the most definitive case that skeptics should be aware of to at least have some openness to this phenomenon.

Yeah, there's the Deborah Moffat case. Oh, my God. So let me preface that with this. For those who are bibliophiles like me, James Lackatsky just recently wrote a book called Future Visions in that book. He talks about a case study in Tennyson, Indiana, And not just that, but another case study in there where a family experienced

poltergeist activity along with UFOs where the entity was taking knives and just driving him into the wall, it would. Where was this in what year? I don't know what year it was. He never gave the year, but NIDS had actually investigated this particular case study. I believe it was NIDS, either that or Bass. This is like the 90s or like within the modern era? I think it was 2005 or seven, I believe.

Okay. Because that's when they were doing their investigations. But point being is that the entity was driving like knives into the wall. It was supporting objects out of nowhere. It would attack the family. It would scratch them. They would, anyway, so that's not a one-up. There's the Deborah Moffat case where they call it Mr.

Eniddy. Could you look this up? Pull it up whatever you find it. Can you pull up the symbols that it was putting on the wall, the triangle and all that and then they'll have it. You just look it up. It's really cool. Anyways, Deborah Moffitt, the same thing that Debra Moffat experienced. Whatever this entity was

was communicating to her where she would ask a question, she would get up the next day and would write on a mirror. And it's crazy because they would wake up and the entity would cut up their socks. It would take one of the shoes so you would only have the one shoe to wear and you couldn't wear it. You know, it's like

okay. It would cut up the carpet. It would tear the drapes up. And it would carve its own symbol into the wall. It's fascinating. And she had multiple investigators, multiple priests that went there to research it. It's documented. It's not just witnessed.

Like they had documentation of it where it actually apported a spear. Yeah. The, her, I think it was her father-in-law. Because what happened was they lived in a cul-de-sac. they all lived in one house. It was like her, her husband, her, her in-laws, and they owned rental properties throughout the cul-de-saint. So anyways, this entity was apporting objects,

taking objects from the house and apporting others into it, and it had actually apported a spear. About this long, it was black, cold of the touch. It was in the middle of the night, the father-in-law felt to touch him, and he's freaking out what is that. It just shows up out of nowhere. That's the case study, at least in the hauntings that I would appeal to,

and then also the Jackie Hernandez case study by Dr. Berry Tav. Okay, before we go to that one, let's, do you have some of the pictures of that? And you can just pull them up whenever you, you grab them. Look at the, look at the, uh, the knife. Now, for those who are familiar, that's exactly what Lakatsky was talking about in his case study. And what's so fascinating about this is that it's not like he just made it up, right?

This case study, I think it was in the 80s, like 1980s, like 1980s. It preceded that case study that Lakatsky investigated. Was this significant that it was on this woman's image? Actually, it was. So that woman right there, that it's on, the entity wanted a sacrifice. What happened in this case? The entity was haunting them, and this is what we're realizing. This is weird.

It was wanting a sacrifice and it was after the mother-in-law and said that a long time ago she was promised to him and he came to collect. It's one of the weirdest cases ever. Now, it- Can you go to the symbol again at the top? Now, that was its own personal symbol or sigil, and you have the seal right there.

So what is this little pie here? Like, what is that? Do you know what these different things are? I think these are a family, members that it had created kind of a map of sort. Now, I haven't read that article yet, but what's so fascinating about this is, oh, God, now we've got to get a demonology. Okay. This entity was not, okay, like when you get a demonology, people say, okay, they're just here to steal, kill, kill, or destroy, its horns and hooves, right?

They're just wanted to possess you. They're trying to destroy the image of God. no like this entity was carving its own sigil into the mirror it had actually apported a spear in so that she could perform this is what she said a ritual for it and how did she know that because it had told her what it was doing because she would go and she would ask it a question well okay initially what happened was she woke up one day and it would write in the on the mirror this is not a one of by the way. People say, you know, they'll have their opinions, but. And what does this say, Debbie can stop something, not me?

Yeah, not me. It was intelligent, had a language preference, it had memory, and it had its own symbol or its own sigil. It's one of the more fascinating case studies. Now, multiple people investigated this case. Can you look at the spear and see if you can find the spear? I'm sorry, as you were, multiple people have looked into this. They didn't know what to do it that multiple priests had came in. One priest had actually said, well, the only thing I can do was to ask to go home with me and not with you and trying to get it away. They could get, I mean, what it was doing, I mean, doing wild stuff, where they would go out

to eat with a neighborhood friend, like the live right around the corner, and the neighbor would go to get his billfold out to pay for the meal and the billfold's gone. and then they would go home to get their mail and the billfold would be in their mailbox and have to wave them down and try to explain while it was in their mailbox. When you say billfold, do you mean wallet? Oh wow.

Yeah, it's an old school. Bill bold. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, I mean, fascinating stuff, but what's so crazy is, again, these are manifestations and... Weird.

Very strange. Now, is anyone like, looked at this, this spear? Has anyone? Yeah, they took it to, I believe it was the Museum of Natural History and they found an expert that said that was not used for hunting. It was used for ritual sacrifice, is what they were told. What?

Do they have like an era or like a time? Do they know anything about it, like historically? I don't know. A type of metal it was made out of? I'm so curious if there was some type of like analysis that was done on this. Because this is something that like was a port, like... A port.

Yeah, so anyways, this is this. This is not like, again, on a one-of, and people will say, okay, well, there's issues with that. Go back to the last message on the mirror. No integrity, no homage, no depth, no character, no... No, that was written... I remember this. In his pursuit. If I'm heard, okay, they had a priest that came in, I believe it was.

I think, yeah, and the entity didn't like them. And so it was just to be disrespectful. Whatever that is, though. And this gets, that's more like a practitioner of something, an initiate. Not just, you know, horns and hoves or not just some kind of demon in Western theology, that that right there. I mean, it even told her one time that it used to exist in like a seminary or seminary. If you get the word that it used, but it actually lived. as a human.

Yeah. Now, why could it not be the way like a Catholic would interpret a demon? To me, this doesn't seem like it would be atypical of a demon, right? Again, I'm not a demonologist, but... No, again, when you're getting to Catholic demonology, it's not as much of a practitioner. Hmm.

And that's not just one of them. You even get into Incubite literature. This was one of Father Snestroy of Amino's arguments where he came across the other species of what people call demons, but it was leaving secretions and sigils on bodies. And so that's when they concluded that it was something more akin to a practitioner, not just a demon, but something that was kind of an intermediate or intermediate. Something in that liminal state, it was kind of both, a hybrid.

And I think that's kind of what we're dealing with here. Do you know if these people profited from this story? Or like, was there any... She wrote a book about it. That's about it. Any like personal incentive? I'm trying to like... No. Matter of fact, they lost...

So what ended up happening was, again, they had rented a house out. They had a bunch of rentals. And this entity had actually forced multiple people out of their homes. They actually lost money. So it was a haunting of this... This personal house. Yeah. Yeah.

Yep. You don't know the real Andre. He must pay for his betrayal. Another image written on a mirror. Mm. So bizarre. Do you know how this concluded for them? Oh, God.

So they went through everybody. I mean, they had parapsychologists there, they had priests there, they had Dr. Evan Paglini, and I don't know that much about her, but what was interesting, though, she said this. And this is more representative of the ancient mindset. It's either a demon, a ghost, or a god. Mm-hmm.

And the only way that they would respond in the was to give them a safe space, a sacred space, a safe space where they just kind of give them their own location and then like light candles to it. So that's what she said, like whatever this is, is ancient, and you've got to create a space for it, and maybe it'll leave you alone. But...

So did they do that? I don't remember. I do not remember... Creating a space for it seems to be wild. An altar. I think you've just even built an altar. What is that, though? What is that?

And this... I just think that... that people say demon again it's kind of a conversation ender it's a thought ending sentence and I think that more all to than not that's that's the beginning of the conversation that's where we should start like if we're gonna talk about that it's not because okay just say it's ABC and we'll go home like no that actually opens up a whole new conversation of what this means and what it could represent so it says here the message will be the last communication Mr. Enity chronicled by Deborah, the last entity is allowed I said...

Oh, yeah, they all done a heartfelt, yeah. Allowed, I said, goodbye, Mr. Energy, and that was the last time I ever spoke to him. Can you scroll up just a touch there, Christos? One more paragraph. I just want to see the top part here. During the next few weeks, Gary made arrangements for relocating. Do you remember who Gary is in the story? Someone.

Gary made relocation to England. There were no anomalous manifestations. Then on the night before Gary's departure, there's a new mirror writing message. I am ready to leave here when you are, Marcel, the name the entity used for Gary. Now we go, now we now go on with our life. You are now mine, my servant after Gary left for the airport. Deborah went to the mirror, saw written goodbye, my family. A loud I said, goodbye, Mr. Entity.

And the last time I ever spoke to him, of course we didn't actually believe he was gone. After that, after what we had been through over the past several years, it was doubtfully he would just leave like that. That message would be the last communication of Mr. Entity chronicled by Deborah. Bill's senior's passing occurred in 2007, and he had not been in contact for years. The official cause of death is reported to be congestive heart failure and obstructive pulmonary disease. Lee made her transition 2009 after returning home from a two-week hospital stay for double pneumonia. Deborah heard Lee say, Mama and speak to To Bresh shortly before Bill Jr. told Deborah that Lee had passed.

Gary lived in England, and Deborah once heard that he was living in Spain. Shortly after he left, he told me that he found a triangle with the tail carved his apartment door, but after that he refused to talk about it and denied entirely. the Mr. Kennedy was still with him. So this is a crazy case study, but in future events, James Lekatsky mentions a family and I think it was in Tennessee, Indiana, where imagine this, a father who lost his son a year before, his TV turns on.

And, you know, how you put your password in to like watch a streaming service or something. Lakatsky says that the entity started typing out messages to the man, to the father. On the TV. On the TV. Same kind of thing here. And the entity and what's wild is the father originally thought that it was his deceased son. And the way that Lakatsky words it in future events, it's almost, I don't, I'm not projecting here. I'm not assuming, so I have to frame it correctly.

It's almost like the entity wanted the father to believe it was his DC son. Because the way he words it is that after many questions and asking many questions on there, the entity would constantly give the wrong answers. So it's like, wait, you can't be my son. Like asking personal questions about. And the entity would know. And it would try. Oh, yeah, I'll give you an answer, but it wasn't the correct answer. But anyways, the point is that was written on the mirror.

This would be typed out, typed out on the television, brother. And this isn't just, you know, this is not Deborah Moffat. This is James Lackatsky dealing with the same manifestations. Here in this particular case in Indiana is a disembodied voice. I think his name was Billy, he claimed to be Bill or something, and he's like just talking to the family, cussing them out. In this case. Not in this case.

I'm comparing these two cases here. So that, so people know that's just the stuff. not a one-of. But we like again, what, what is that? We don't know in the frustrating part about it is, like I said, the instrumentation is deeply limited. Yeah. Hey guys, we're going to take a break really quick because I want to tell you about energy. I'm someone who loves coffee, but there's a point where I'm on like my fourth or my fifth or my 10th cup and it stops helping. Instead of feeling more focused, I'm jittery and distracted and like exhausted but also unable to relax. It's kind of funny because I'll go to the gym. I try to watch what I eat. I try to get eight hours of sleep.

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without nicotine or caffeine. And the new customers can use camp to get 15% off at take ultra.com. That is take ultra.com for 50% off with the code camp. And after you purchase, they're going to ask where you heard about them. Tell them, Mark and Christos sent you. from the campsite. Let's get back to the show. The one that I always find so compelling is LaToya Ammons.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we were talking about that a little bit before. If you can pull up the, there's like a New York Daily News article about it when it happened. And this is probably like 106 or 7 or something like that. Maybe my dates were a little bit off. But the article and the story is compelling to me. It also became the story behind the film, the, I forgot the name.

It came out like a couple years ago. You can find it at deliverance, maybe. I think that's what it was. And the story is compelling to me because there are so many independent sightings from people that are not directly involved. So there's stories from the child department of health or like the child protective services basically

going over there and hearing about this haunting, hearing about these kids that are possessed and trying to figure out what's going on. And that person also sort of saw things and reported to the newspaper and put in the police report. The nurse that was involved in the case, that was basically like treating the children

also apparently saw things and reported it and told the police. And so once you get multiple points of external kind of confirmation, that's where I started to go like, oh, what's going on here? Like some of these cases, like, for example, what was the name of the family in this case?

Moffat. The Moffat family. It's like, okay, I wasn't there. Right, of course. I don't know if there was a police officer that had a documented report of like, I saw this or some other type of outside observer.

Priest, yeah, one priest did. Sure, but again, in this sort of paradigm, if I'm coming at it from like a completely skeptical angle, like a priest is someone that is obviously predisposed to believe in the supernatural. So like, is there someone that might not have a necessary predisposition? Again, I don't know the sort of philosophical background.

Yeah, like a chaplain, right, at the hospital or something. Right. So the fact that, like in this case, it's like, okay, well, maybe there's some type of logical explanation. Maybe there's some type of case of, you know, and we can kind of get into some of the skeptical claims a little bit later of like different ways that people would try to explain this phenomenon.

But maybe there's an explanation. But the fact that in this case, if you go to the, I think it's the New York Daily News, is that what it is? If you go to paywall remover.com, you can pull it off. Not a plug, just a website I like. It's interesting because there's these specific cases where they're like, yeah, I saw the person climb off the wall. Like, things like that. So can you describe that case? Oh, my God.

It's a really chilling case. So you want me to start from Square One when it originated? Take me back. Oh, my God. So the young boy, the little boy, was discovered in his closet one night talking to an invisible entity. When the mother asked him, what are you talking to? Who were you talking to? The little boy said, I'm talking to another little boy here. He's telling me what it feels like to be killed. That's when everything started. He started demonstrating what her call.

possession, symptoms or symptoms of possession, not just obsession, but actively being possessed. They take it to the hospital, in the hospital room he's there with his mother, his siblings, and his grandmother. He then walks up, according to this testimony's wild stuff. He walks backwards up to the wall, and his back legs. He's walking. And then he flips over, lands in the chair, looks at his grandmother, starts laughing. Well, nurses were in that room. They watched it, and they ran out screaming. They went and got the chaplain.

And the chaplain said, we need somebody bigger than me. So they went out and got Michael Maganoe, father Michael Maganoe, to go and investigate it. And once they actually went to the home itself, they interviewed the grandmother there in the house. And the grandmother said that she would, she'd actually like be in her room or be in the bathroom. And she, with the lights off, she would see figures walking in the living room. I would be out.

Yeah. I would be on Airbnb right now. Yeah. And so she would see them walking and then she'd turn the light out and they wouldn't be there. Turn the light off and they'd be walking. And people are so funny. They'll be like, well, they got that from a movie. It's like, it's like that's the opposite.

It's actually, yeah, it's the reverse. Yeah. People get movie ideas from these case studies. Mm-hmm. And as you can see, we can discover the magic here. And, you know. So this is the article that comes, oh, it came out 2014 is when it was published. So it says, Gary Nann, a mother three claims the demons cause her 12-year-old daughter to levitate, nine-year-old son to walk in a hospital ceiling, accounts supported.

by medical personnel and police officials in a shock report. Again, this comes from New York Daily News, the repudability of that paper I can't speak to, but it says that effectively this exact thing that you're saying, late night footsteps, creaking of door, wet footprints, left by a male figure. And if you scroll down a little more,

so it was a first scream that alerted the grandmother, Rose Campbell to the girl's bedroom. I thought, what's going on, why is this happening? Then the girl fell back into bed. She gained consciousness but had no memory of what's happening. Two, Clairvoyance, told him that, The house was filled with more than 200 demons. The family's church recommended pouring olive oil on Amon's children's hand and feet

and putting crosses on their forehead as a form of protection. Now, continue to go down. There's an element of this specific one. Go down a little bit more. Yeah. So when asked what they were talking about, her son allegedly told her the child was describing what was like to be killed. Not long after that, the woman claims her seven-year-old flew out of the bathroom

and that her 12-year-old daughter required stitches after being hit on the head. the girl told healthcare professionals that sometimes she felt like she was being choked, a voice would tell her that she would never see her family again. And then this guy, in 2012, the family went to see Dr. Jeffrey on Yekwu, whose encounter with the children's, he said he would never forget. 20 years, I've never heard anything like that in my life about their first meeting since the frightening events began. I was scared myself when I walked into the room.

Now, go down a little more. There's one specific case right here. So Ammons was reported to DCS for possible child abuse when she was evaluated, she was found to be of sound mind. The DCS case manager, Valerie Washington, was then called to evaluate with the children when she met them the youngest, she reported, again, this is the DCS case manager.

Yes, yes. This is no means, like, involved in the family or is a part of like a shared psychosis or anything. She reported that the child started to growl, flash his teeth, and then his eyes rolled back into his head. Scroll a little more. So this part right here,

this is the part that's most interesting. So Campbell, this is the grandmother, took the boy's hand because he was at nine years old, allegedly headbutting his grandmother. And she started to pray when the boy walked backwards up a wall and onto the ceiling where he flipped and landed perfectly on his feet. Washington's DCS report, again, this is from the Department of Child Services. Her report corroborated with Willie Lee Walker, a registered nurse who was in the room with them. He walked up the wall, flipped over the grandmother, and stood there.

there's no way he could have done that. Washington and her police report described the boy as gliding. The seven-year-old boy stayed overnight at the hospital while Campbell took the other two children to a relative's house for the night. I mean... Oh, a bathroom light bulb flickered.

There you go, boy. Bathroom light bulb flickered, blinds in the kitchens would swing. Footprints would appear in the living room. Now, this to me is the most interesting because, again, you have doctors and nurses that are completely unrelated to this. Perhaps they believe in the supernatural, Again, perhaps they don't.

They did afterwards. Yeah, certainly. And they see someone climb with the walls and flip under their feet at nine years old. Going all the way to the ceiling, again, just to me, I'm like, I don't know what's going on here. I agree, brother. And not just that, but the entity that was possessing one kid would kind of leave him and go to the others one by one. It's a fascinating case study. It's not a one-off, man.

It's just they're out there. Very strange. Now, we talked a little bit about Marion Apparitions before. Yeah. Now, again, I grew up Catholic, so I was always like, yeah, these are the Virgin Mary appearing and sort of the lore behind them. If anyone's not familiar with what these cases are, Marian apparitions are a sort of recorded piece of, you know, church history that fits within Catholic theology that the Virgin Mary would appear to certain people at different places. So obviously, Juan Diego in Mexico is where you're going to get the famous image that many Mexicans sort of represent almost as like a national emblem of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which, again, is the Virgin Mary. Mary appearing to this guy. Another is the case of the children of Fatima, where the Virgin Mary appears to three children and does this sort of miraculous sighting with this massive sort of movement of the sun where

hundreds, perhaps, I mean, some estimate into the multiple thousands. I think even the lowest number is like 20,000, up to like 50,000 people in Portugal in the early 1900s, see this, what they called the dance of the sun where they thought that the world was ending because the sun was like moving around in such a rapid way. Even people going there to debunk it, people from anti-cleric, anti-church newspapers showing up to be like, yeah, the church got us all wound up about this BS Mary thing, all of a sudden are going home being like, well, I still don't believe it, but something very weird happened. So once again, skeptics coming away with a very strange sort of appearance. Again, not in antiquity. This is in the early 1900s.

And in this framework, I know you kind of mentioned that it's possible that these entities could appear in these apparitions. Yeah. What do you make of these apparitions from this framework? Well, why are they doing that is my question? You know, it's not just that they're manifesting as a religious figure. They're doing that for a reason. And it's almost like they're making profits, and they're creating their own religions.

And what inevitably happens is you'll have somebody that witnesses an entity like that, and they'll have a following, and they will kind of, And you've probably seen it as well in the field well, whether they're like my beings, they'll have some kind of ownership or they'll come out. And before you know it, they have their own religious creed. They'll have their own tradition.

They'll have their own method of contact. And then they'll have this cold following. And one theory is that's the whole point of it. You know, they're mediators now. They're prophets to whatever these beings are. You know, it's unique because I should even say it's not unique. The Catholic Church recently is about maybe two years ago, so it's fairly recently, where they revised their qualifications for apparitions. If an apparition is true and it does come from God, they listed different details about and how to determine that.

And why would you do that if you didn't believe that there are entities masquerading as these relationships. religious figures. So that's when you go into people that were, that have seen her. And the government's in contact with them. And you look at them and you ask yourself, as it possible by that the government's not really wanting to be in contact with the white lady. They're more so wanting to understand your abilities. That makes sense. Right. Pick it up what I'm putting down. Yeah. Yeah. And so I, me personally, I don't trust them at all. I'm not talking about the phenomenon at large. I do not trust the entities that manifest as religious figures, mainly because if it is the Virgin Mary, Mother Mary, then we have to go back to Jim Simevan and what he said.

Now, me as a phenomenologist or whatever people want to call me, I don't care at this point, I am very well versed in folklore. I understand that. I've, you know, I've researched all that. So I know that the white lady was more or less a predictable manifestation, mostly seen in haunting. where people literally had an understanding or they had a way of interpreting her presence to where she was witness so often, people just, they chalked it up to perhaps it was a bride that died in her wedding dress.

So it's not just a lady in white, she's seen everywhere. It's not just the Mother Mary or the Virgin Mary. No, that's just the predictable manifestation of the white lady, which is more on the lines of what Jim Simi Van said. Initially, it was not interpreted. She was not interpreted. as the Virgin Mary or Mother Mary. It was just the white lady and this is what Jim Simmyvan said. Jim Simi Van said that she had homoerotic tendencies. Now this gets back to form versus function.

Looking at what it appears to be and measuring it against what it's doing, what it's known to do. I don't care what you call yourself. It's the bloody footprints in the snow. What are you doing? Form versus function. So you look at that, you ask yourself, well, how can it be homoerotic and be Mother Mary? People will say, okay, well, that all funnels back to the original archetype. No, it cannot share these together if they're different people. She was not homoerotic. My point being, though, is that I'm not using the term archetype in the union sense.

I'm simply saying that these are predictable manifestations that are being confused and then being reinterpreted as the years go by. When the mother, mother, mother married, white lady first manifested, she was giving false prophecies and she was accompanied by shadow people in that family. In which family? Blets us. Now, I have, I think, I like Chris a lot. I, you know, I think they're all cool people. I just don't trust the phenomenon.

I want to make that plain. Yeah, I think that makes sense. And I think skepticism over any type of apparition is probably healthy. I think that's probably the right move. Anytime something appears to first say, like, well, did you actually see something? And then secondarily, well, is what you actually saw at what it actually said that it was.

And so I look at these cases where like Marian apparitions, like Fatima, for example, where I'm like, all right, Mother Mary, as it is said by these children, appears to these kids and appears to 20,000 people sort of in form. And the outcome of that, again, knowing a tree by its fruits, it's like, well, millions of people are now dedicating to Christ in some way. They're praying their rosary. They're becoming more religious.

These children go on to live very devout lives within the church. And so I'm like, well, the outcome of this, if this is some type of non-human entity that is not the Mother Mary, to me, I'm like, well, it massively backfired because it brought more people to knowing Christ, unless that's a part of the grand deception on top of everything. Well, I would suggest that that is a, at least that played a role in it, and it could and would and did, was,

really interpreted as that, right? It's reincorporated back into the Catholic creed and doctrine, and yet now we're praying to Orbs. Right. Well, praying to Orbs is that's a bad move. Well, and here's the evolution of it. And again... But I don't know if that has anything to do with the Marian apparition, it would be my... Well, what it mean, though, is that it...

Well, that particularly... I'm saying the Mother Mary and a White Lady in this context where it's like, okay, that was... It was benign, no big deal. And then we go from it being benign to just prey to orbs. And then if anybody has a bad experience with orbs, well, you're either lying or that's frustrating because I've, like my, my dear friend, the late Michael Lynch had a case study where an orb picked a man up off his feet. And he's up against the wall and he's being choked by one of these things. and it had something around its neck,

and then when they're looking at it, they saw a handprint around his neck. And what I am suggesting here, again, is early on we were scoffed at. I was scoffed at when I said, well, what they're doing is sounds like prayer. People like, that's, you're an idiot, Nathaniel, you know, what are you talking about?

And then, and next thing you know, it was like, well, yeah, they are. Right. So you mentioned, you mentioned Chris Bledsoe In his case, can you explain for the guy listening that doesn't know Chris Bledsoe and how this interface is kind of with the lady and white and why we're drawing these comparisons with Maren Apparitions? Yeah, so I wanna say, I wanna just express myself here.

Look, I like Chris Bledso. This is not against him and his family at all. I just don't trust the phenomenon. He's an experiencer and he wrote a book called the UFO of God and he was an abductee and he had an encounter with the white lady who basically told him that he will be needed and that there was a I want to say a vow that he made with her something to where if she needed him that he needed to be there and then after the initial encounter with the white lady he then goes to a conference to give a lecture to talk about

his experience and in mid-sentence something comes over him and he begins to basically predict the future in front of everybody. Is there a video of this conference? It might have been. I didn't go, but he talks about it all often. And so when people say, okay, it's just the Marian apparition, no, it's not, right? This thing evolves. Well, does this thing claim to be the Mother Mary?

He calls for that. And I think that that's where the confusion lies, right? It's the white lady. It's the divine feminine. Now, this gets murky, because I don't know if he's, being told that, right, by the powers that be, oh, she's this, he's okay, or if that's something that she's directly articulated to him. What I do know, though, is that it's like the forming of a new religion. It's, and again, I hate to be that guy. It is what it is, but it is

concerning, because if an entity manifested in my house and was accompanied by shadow figures and was giving me false prophecies and terrifying everybody around me. And then later on, I'm convinced that it's benevolent. I would question a lot of that. When you say false prophecies, what do you mean? Just predicting events and stuff. That's what they do, okay?

That's what they do. They'll predict events and then it just won't come to pass. And Dr. Clark Turner had many of these cases and it doesn't make sense. So it's like, okay, sometimes they'll give you like an insight or whatever, And people call these tricksters. I still can't wrap my mind around that. Like, you know, it'll go from okay here in a year or two. You're going to be at a conference or, you know, this person is going to be assassinated. And then they'll give you something that sounds true, right? It sounds plausible. And you'll go out there and tell everybody. Why? Because they were right the other three times. And then you go out there and tell everybody what you've been told and you just fall on your face. And this is kind of what, you know, this is kind of what.

you know, I think it was dying up Posoka that actually told him that, like, I think she even mentioned this where she was like, you know, these things can lie. And again, we don't know why that happens. It's like some stupid game they play. It just doesn't make any sense. Now, you referenced earlier that the entity that you experienced wanted you to feel fear. Yeah. So what is the desire for these things to want to make you and us? sort of royally us. Why do they want us to feel fear? What is it that they ultimately want?

This goes back to the hungry ghost legend and antiquity where you have theoretically, you have an entity that was formerly embodied and so it's hungry, it's hungry, hungry, hungry, but it cannot eat food, it's thirsty, but it cannot take drink. It's tired, but it cannot rest. And so there are certain, features and characteristics that can only occur, be fulfilled, and had if they were embodied,

but they're not. So what they'll do is, and this is just a theory, again, is that they will torment to feel fear, or they will even, they'll trigger emotions, right? That's the big deal. They'll trigger emotions. And a lot of that is the interface, the interface designed to get those emotions. So that's a theory I buy into it somewhat. But I want to I want to suggest this, again, that a lot of times it's not so much of a game as it is the ability and the desire to render oneself into this environment. When you get into parapsychology, we discussed this earlier, where it's not just that, you know, the doors are being slammed and you're seeing shadow people.

It's polterguised activity. It's the noisy ghost where it's knocking on walls. People thought originally that was the result of a mindless, unguided process. It's just happening. No big deal. And initially, it was, unfortunately, blamed on, like, you know, adolescent children, specifically young girls who were going through puberty or something, and they're releasing the psychic energy.

Our fantasy commission says for him it's all about the friendships. Cute, Kevin. But I disagree. Like with about 365. I get paid the second my team goes up big with early payout and can cash out at any time before the game ends. No hard feelings, Kevin. Just faster payouts from Bet365.

The home of winning early. Must be 19 and older. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you were someone you know is concerns about gambling, visit connectsontario.ca or call 1-8665-3-1-2,600. Terms and conditions apply. Causing these things to happen, it's sad because they were often blamed and it was wrong.

I mean, it wasn't just wrong to do that. It was wrong phenomenologically, right? They were wrong. Point being is that it's not a mindless and God of Pre. What this phenomenon does, again, umbrella term, I get it, is it will do all of that and then it will get a reaction out of you. Steve Merritt had a case like this where the intelligence knocked something off a wall and they heard it everywhere. And like, oh, my God, it was super loud. And they went back to the video footage.

It was just a small object that felt. They went to experimented, knocked it off themselves and barely made a noise. So why did this intelligence want them to hear it? Why did it want them to feel it? Because it heightened them, right? It got them to fear. It got them to be concerned. Who is this in my house?

What is going on? In the problem that a lot of, and I had this too in my experience, where a lot of young researchers and even older researchers were doing this before parapsychology kind of took a leap in understanding, where they would go in there and go, oh, thank you. Okay, it's the little girl. Or even like with Doris Spither. one of Barry Taft's cases where she had two signs and was being a cost and attacked by two entities. And so, again, she must be projecting psychic energy, you know, and it's two entities because she has two signs.

That was kind of, you know, the way people thought then. What I would suggest is happening is that this is more or less like a program that's being operated, right? It has its own autonomy. It's a program and it's developing a certain environment. and when that environment is peaked and it's ready, the entity will suck in all that energy and that's collected. And now it's not a poltergeist. It's making eye contact with you, right?

It's not just an apparition walking down the steps. It's an actual entity. And now it's going to use everything. It's conjured in that environment to do what it wants. So this gets back into, and I don't know if you want to, we can do this in the next interview or something, but we're going to go to the hitchhiker effect. the transmissibility of the contact contagion, where you start to realize that that entity is

searching for paranormal architecture. It's not going to stick with you. It's going to go somewhere else. So it started with you in your house with polter gosh activity. It's building itself up. Now that it's here, it's searching for paranormal architecture. What do I mean? I mean literally the blueprint, an environment that exists overlaid on this environment that we're ignorant of. It's tracking. Now it's not just here. across the street. How? So as much as the interface is tailored for you, the experience may be for somebody else, you may just be the current host.

Interesting. Now, is there an effective antidote to this? Oh, God. Right? Like, the movie one is Holy Water and the power of Christ compels you and all that kind of stuff. Like, if I ever experienced this, I would probably pray to Jesus and be like, this gets into, oh my Lord, this is what I'm really passionate about. If someone's dealing with this right now, the guy that's watching this. Let me, okay, I want to build some foundation here because I can give people ideas and ways to push the pieces back in the darkness somewhat.

But I got to explain what's going on. So James Lackatsky nids Kumpkeller, her. They had, they brought about a measure of disclosure that we've yet to have in the field. What was their disclosure? We're not just studying UFOs. We're not just studying consciousness. We're studying a contagion that operates like an illness, like a sickness. That sickness is contracted by virtue of contact.

And people are like, who want to go contact? Let's get contact. Okay, well, let's look at what the data says. Not Nathaniel Gillis. Look at Lecombe Keller and Lackatsky and Nitz. So what's happening is they use the example, and it's not the sum total of the examples, it's just the one they go to Skinwalker Ranch. They go to Skinwalker Ranch.

And what's happening is you have these researchers, and they called him Axel Rob, but I believe it was Jay Stratton, to my knowledge, who is at Skinwalker Ranch. And as he's actively on the property, this intelligence is already in his house. at his house where? I think it was in Virginia, I believe. Okay, not at Skinwalker Ranch. No, he's at Skinwalker Ranch. The phenomenon's already at his house.

And that is, okay, they had so many cases in Nids and in Compe Keller's research where they called that the hitchhiker effect. So essentially, I'm researching one thing. I'm going home with something else, something else is following me. And so the hitchhiker effect, it originated in virology. It was designed to describe one thing that leads to another thing. One disease that leads to another disease. And what essentially happens, this is so incredibly fascinating to me,

is that these people, researchers, it happened at the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory, it happened to the Los Alamos Laboratory. It happened with Kit Green's research. It happened at NIDS. Eric Davis experienced this. Jeremy Corbell experienced this, not Jeremy Corbeau, Brandon Fugge did, where it's UFOs here, it's accrupted there, and then I go home, and it's a full-blown, malevolent haunting.

Apparitions, ghosts, disembodied voices. And most people in their research, they stop there at the intersection. And I'm like, oh, my God, these data points, it's so fascinating. And it is. It's rich. It's rich in data. The thing, though, is that those apparitions being interfaces of the intelligence were accompanied by autoimmune diseases. This was huge for me.

And these family members were saying, okay, you know, I saw these apparitions. And again, go to Comte Keller's article on Edged Science. He talks about this in depth where it's like, okay, they research the phenomenon and they go home and they have apparitions. of dead children, not unlike the Emmett's case. They're in the house and they're haunting people. In that contact experience, a contagion manifests in the bodies of the experiencers. So you have this transmissibility that you transfer where I see an apparition or I see the paranormal, I see something.

And then because I'm in contact with it, a contagion's release. Now I'm suffering from autoimmune diseases. Not unlike some experiencers come down with, and they have them, autoimmune disease, after encountering this intelligence. The same thing, that Dr. Collar Turner had another one of those cases where a little girl was being taken as a little girl. And, you know, she's young. It's not like she just started being abducted as an adult. No, it occurred to her when she was young into her adulthood. But she contracted an autoimmune disease.

So that, to them, at least Nids and Kome Kalaher, that the attachment led, it was like, okay, you see an apparition. You, you suffer from an autoimmune disease. Now, what's crazy is that that was not just contact contagion, but our ancestors would have called that the result of spirit contact. Hmm. So then what does someone do against that? So in the Nineve a Tablet, in the Ninevea tablets. What are those? Okay.

This is where I'm getting at. This is fascinating. because I had to build a foundation to answer your question. The scholar Joanne Scurlock details in her work, it's called medical, or I'm sorry, magico medical means of treating ghost-borne illnesses. How she frames it. The ancient experiencer, this is why I believe it's been here forever.

It's not like, okay, just showed up when we realized it, you know. I made eye contact with it. I read a book. It's here now. No, it's been here for a long time. So much so that our ancestors, especially in Mesopotamia, they were encountering the same phenomenon. They were also witnessing ghosts and then suffering from autoimmune diseases so much so that they framed their exorcistic right around it. That's your answer. And so we call them, it's contact contagion. You see something, a paranormal, an apparition, and then you suffer a disease. What, what they would call that is a ghost-borne illness.

And the way they would investigate that is you would have a physician who was also your exorcist. They would go in and ask the question, have you witnessed a deceased loved one recently? And they have one cases in the Ninevea tablets. Also, again, in her book, Magico-Medical Means of Treating Ghost-Born Illnesses. Okay, have you seen the apparitions of the dead? And one man said, absolutely, for the last. two months, I've been seeing ghosts and shadow people and family members that are dead. And the next thing I know, I'm sick.

It's the contact contagion that we're just now getting. Point is, the way they treated this, this is also kind of the origin story of Isaac Luria's exorcistic, right, where he said, in order to heal the disease, he has to get rid of the entity. And there's your answer. How do you get rid of the entity? How do you get really... So there are ways that...

And they treated it. To get rid of the unity, it was fumigants, burning things in the house. I'm sage? Sage. If you go to the book of Jasher and others, you... This is another strange thing that just doesn't fit.

The idea is not that it's purifying the air. They believe that whatever these beings are, they did not like the smell. And so you would drive off the spirit with the smell and then by driving off the spirit, the autoimmune disease would leave as well. I get the fact, and obviously there are talisman and there are, you know, claiming, you know, the divine name, the name of Jesus or Yeshua and that. All of that played a role in the mind, in the ancient mind, at least.

Point being is, it's fascinating to me that thousands of years removed, we're in 2026 now. we should be more evolved right well they didn't know anything turns out they did turns out they did and they were doing their best to document that self-same contact contagion the way they did it's the exact same thing we're dealing with now it's brandy fugel brand of fuguel said okay is there a way to combat this and he mentioned prayer so what this is doing though and this gets back into disclosure and i'm not again people are going to say i'm trying to frame this religiously no i'm not i'm literally just using scholarship. I'm referring to Joanne Scurlock and others who write about this extensively. The endgame, though, is that these are, it's not, okay, it's not an autoimmune disease.

It's the spirit of autoimmune disease. But does the name of Christ, does that affective repellent? Does prayer an effect of repellent? I know people, yeah. I've had. success in that, and I know others who had as well. Now, the name of Jesus is not, and I say this, it's not that the name of Jesus is powerful. Sometimes it just doesn't work. Now, people will confuse me saying Nathaniel Gillis says, I'm not saying that the name of Jesus is power. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying, though, is it would be a lot like, you know, saying that to an animal. Right? What are we really dealing with here? So those are ways to combat.

at least that was their ways to come back. Now, the other way, and this is equally as fascinating, is they would go in order to get rid of one spirit, they would appeal to a more powerful spirit. But that seems dangerous. Yeah, so that's when they would build altars and make sacrifices and say, okay, I need you to. And that's really what we're dealing with,

at least some of it. But it does appear to be some from a spirit contact, And the problem, though, is, again, we don't know the architecture here. You go into Jack Hernandez's case. She has a neighbor named Suzanne, and the phenomenon seemingly was localized in Jackie's house. Now, admittedly, it tried to hang Jeff Weecraft. It was scratching people, pushing them, attacking people. But it did not stay there.

It went on into the neighborhood, and then further and further and further. And that's why I was saying, yeah, like some of the interfaces may be tailored for us in terms of what it looks like, but the experience may be tailored for someone else. And that's when you get into what's called neuroparasitology, where it acts like taxoplasma Gandhi, a fungus, where you think you're the host. You are the temporary host in a way, where the phenomenon will hitchhike on you. in order to get to someone else. And so you are the delivery system of that. And that's why I believe that as many, and I get it, there's a lot of people that are big CE-Fivers.

There's a close encounters of the fifth kind. Yeah, yeah, where it's, I want to go out there, I want to see it. People go out into the desert and they'll basically conjure UFOs using like meditation. Oh, it's so fascinating because you have this, and this is really funny to me. one group says we're not praying, we're summoning. One group says we're not summoning, we're praying. And I've watched that. It's so funny to me because I'm like, okay, you guys can argue amongst yourselves.

I'm just watching. It's a weird one because I know people that are, you know, like, otherwise just like, they're not involved in the community at all. They're just like homies of mine. They're like work in music or entertainment. And they've gone out and done it. And they're like, yeah, it works. Yeah.

And they come back and they're like, pretty weird. I saw a UFO. I'm like, what do you mean? They're like, I saw like an orb in the sky. It was moving around and then it went away. Yeah, there's a lot. I think some of it was Spirit Airlines, too, you know. What do you mean?

It was Spirit Airlines. Yeah, you think they just saw a plane? Yeah, that's what I mean. It's a plane over there, buddy. That's funny. So, you know, so, and I, look, I'm not denying the existence of the phenomenon. That would be ignorant of me. I just, I do not try.

We don't know what's attention. What kind of phenomenon would come back home to your family and terrorize them? And then people go away thinking, okay. It's just trying to raise my awareness. There's billions of ways to do that without terrorizing my disabled child. Yeah. That's a, and in many ways, it's a ridiculous notion because I don't think the data says that. There are better ways to.

Can we bring up some skeptical takes that maybe the healthy skeptics are thinking? Yeah, man, because I know they're out there and I, to a degree I am too, so I believe it is something. So, like, certain cases where we're talking about autoimmune decisions. autoimmune issues, right? Is it possible that we're mixing correlation and causality? Is it possible someone has an autoimmune illness that also, in some way, can affect their brain to where they're now experiencing things or feeling things or having dreams about things that are correlated with their illness?

Or perhaps there's mold in the house that causes some type of psychoactive kind of effect, but also creates an autoimmune effect. To a degree, yeah. And that is possible. I just, I don't know of a mold that would be like, hey, less, you know what I'm going, but you don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's what's so disturbing about it is that it wasn't just limited.

Okay, take that case and point. Let's say that Jay Stratton's family lived in a moldy house. Um, Jay Stratton's schoolmates didn't. Mm-hmm. And they were also experiencing the phenomenon. So again, it's transmissibility as a problem. And I'm not saying again that because we know the ancient mind and documented this stuff, that they knew what to do with it,

I didn't know saying that at all, right? Or that we should go out there and fumigate our houses because we have a spirit. I'm not saying that either. What I am saying, though, is that by all, measures it appears to be that same intelligence and and sure there are skeptical takes to it I just don't believe you know I just I look at this and I think okay what could produce not just it's not an auditory hallucination it's not some kind of dream scape it's physical manifestations multiple people that had nothing like people that were never at at Skinwalker never never never

family. They just went to school with them or they're a neighbor. Right. And then I wonder sometimes about things like the case we're looking at. I forget the family's name for the fifth time. We've had a lot of families up there with the knives and the walls. Oh, Moffat. The Moffat case. So like the first thing I think is like a gas leak. Yeah. Like I'm sure you've heard theories about this before. There's a famous Reddit post. Could you look up Gas leak Reddit post? It's like pretty famous on Reddit. But it's a case of a guy posting and he's a famous. And he's a famous. And he's a He's saying like, hey guys, I'm finding like weird sticky notes in my house telling me to do things. And it's like kind of regular things, but it's like call my friend that I haven't talked to in 10 years.

Or it's like, you know, like fix the TV and the TV's not broken. It's just like stuff like stuff like stuff like needing to do. And one of the comments was like, check for a gas leak. And that and then he eventually went and like commented and was like, whoever said that saved my life, you're exactly right. I had a gas leak and it was causing me to basically like sleepwalk and that he was in the state where he was like waking up and doing things and then going back to sleep completely unaware that he was doing things.

And so I wonder with some of these cases, is it possible that people are doing things completely unaware, maybe even by the effect of like medication where they're doing things that they're unaware of, which is equally scary, don't be wrong. That's a very terrifying experience to have. But then I wonder like, is there some type of room for, that in some of these cases. I think of that Shane Gillis thing where he's sleepwalking. Remember that?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That slurs, yeah. Yes. So I'm with you on that and it goes back to your point about the Eamond case where there were independent witnesses that validated, verified the encounter. The Moffitt case did not begin at that hub, that main house. It began at a rental where the, um, the, um, you know, the, um, you know, the, um, you know, the, um, the, um, The guy, one of the guys had a collection of Major League Baseball memorabilia and they were bobbleheads.

It was part of the collection and they had this wall-length shelf. All the bobbleheads are on there and the cleaning ladies clean and she looks up and all the bobbleheads are, boom, backwards. So it originated out of there. So it's like, okay. So she reported that. Then they had another tenant who left the house. unexpectedly just disappeared and then when they got a hold of them he said okay has anybody died in there and that's when they kind of put two together and then boom next

thing you know it's actually it's fascinating because I didn't even mention this for for some reason probably my ADHD but there was a centaurian ritual performed so what happened was because you watched you read the article where I think it was the mother-in-law and a father-in-law both had heart failure and the one of the cleaning ladies loved loved loved loved loved the mother-in-law and so she performed a centaurian ritual and it was either botched or successful one of the two but an orb manifested you know those good angels sorry manifested and then it was from that moment next thing you know all hell broke loose not just in that house in all the houses that they were renting and it admitted it lost them but money, you know. But I agree with you. I sympathize with your point where it's like, okay, how many people can validate this who didn't already have that background and have that presupposition going into it. But it did happen in the Malford case, too. It's wild. Right. And then I guess like even some of the,

you know, we talk about parapsychology. Like there's an element of that that is the psychology part. And so, you know, there's part of me, again, as sort of like the believing side of it's like, okay, maybe there's a sort of an interdimensional kind of consciousness thing happening here where it's like these things, again, I'm not like a big believer in like extraterrestrials from another planet flying over here. I'm kind of, if I'm going to pick a side, I'm like leaning more to the side of like this interdimensional kind of consciousness thing. You like, you know, wherever you go when you're on mushrooms, like kind of that sort of space. So that's kind of where I lean with that. So I'm like, okay, on the one side, you have the psychology component where maybe there's a way that it can interface with your consciousness.

We're talking about fear and how it feeds off fear and the more you're afraid of it, the more you believe it. And part of me goes like, all right, well, is it also possible that's the case that the more you are afraid of something, the more you're perceptive of this thing appearing within you that you've sort of manifested out of your own fear, right? Yeah, like the- The Agrigore, the Topa, that kind of thing. Is that where you're going?

Like, you're familiar with like the perception test. Like, people have done this where they're like, okay, look around the room and look for everything red. Yeah. And you look around the room and then you say, okay, what did you see that was green? And they go, oh, I don't know. Yeah, it's like that, it's like,

That moment you buy like a, not that you did, like a cherry red, like Dodge Ram. Yeah, and you notice every, exactly, the burning my-hav frequency illusion. And so I wonder if it's like, okay, I'm terrified of seeing this thing. I'm terrified of seeing this thing, or I really want to see this thing. And then... Both of which, belief. Right.

Belief plays a role. And so it's that belief and then is it possible that with that exceptional belief that all of a sudden you start to notice things or maybe you're about to go to sleep and you hear something. And if you were otherwise unaware of this, then maybe you wouldn't have hurt it. I wonder if some of these cases can be summarized with a little bit of that. I'm certain that some of them could be. Could be. Again, the Tulpa aspect of the Agroor part, I think it does play a role. People often get confused, though, because they think that because we have the ability to co-create the interface, what they wear, you know, like I said,

some people have predispositions to something, a presupposition. They'll have a world view and the entity will just go through there and okay what's the cultural costume and they'll fit it over we become co-creators of that like I said you observe it it will fix its form and we have to have a way of kind of creating the scene we've already covered that seam the dream point though is people kind of get really lost in the sauce here because it's like they think that because we have the ability to co-create its interface that we co-create its form that we are somehow responsible for its function. And I know researchers that have got called up and to their own demise because then you

have experiencers who were like, okay, yes, I believe, you know, I helped co-create the archetype or, I know, because it wanted to look like a deceased loved one, I helped it. It picked that image out of my mind. But just because I did that does not mean that I deserve to be assaulted by it. Right, or that I created it. entirely. There we go. That's somehow because I helped author its form, I'm responsible for its function. Ludacrous. And I've heard researchers do that, but what ends up happening is you have somebody is like they said that. You know, like I remember reading on social media. Like, no, you can't tell me that. And what they end up doing is like I said before, they just, oh, well, you, you made an agreement before you were born. It's like, well, how do you know that? But I don't. So they get, they get that kind of, you know, conflated. And it is bird.

and some, so I want to make sure there's, there's, that's mentioned. And I've also kind of heard this with like, you did, you can be more like alien kind of UFO phenomenon, gray's specifically, but I've heard people posit the idea that perhaps there's a connection with childhood trauma, specifically like childhood sexual abuse, and that people have made the claim that perhaps there's some type of distorted memory or connection.

And I find that people that have these experiences typically begin having them young. Like, it's pretty rare, I guess, that someone's like, I was 30 years old. I had nothing to do with this. And all of a sudden, bang, I'm having this crazy sort of apparition of this crazy experience. I mean, maybe perhaps like with some poltergeist stuff.

But, like, for most of the people, it's in, like, UFO alien community, I talk. Our fantasy commission says for him it's all about the friendships. Cute, Kevin. But I disagree. Like with Bet365. I get paid the second my team goes up big with early payout and can cash out at any time before the game ends. No hard feelings, Kevin.

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They'll say, like, well, things ramped up when I was in my 20s, but the first one I remember I was seven years old. I was eight years old. It's right around like kind of this age of consciousness, this age of reason, so to speak. And I wonder if there's some connection with that. And I've brought this up with a few people with sort of interesting answers. But the theory kind of goes.

like such where you experience something traumatic as a child. Maybe it's childhood abuse, maybe it's violent, maybe it's sexual in some capacity. And your brain as a coping mechanism develops a shield or a mask for it to kind of disassociate. It separates itself, disassociating where I suffer, but I do not. Yeah, so I, my father, my uncle,

my baseball coach did something horrible to me. But the brain's mechanism to protect itself is to say, actually, that didn't happen to me from this person. It actually happened from this other sort of malevolent entity that I can sort of push all of my anger and pain towards and that it actually happened from that. And this probing is sort of a mask for sexual abuse or this abduction is a mask for not feeling safe

and in the protection of my home around the people that protect me. And it kind of becomes this warped sort of memory. And then sometimes they go through regression and then through regression, again, and it's difficult to really have perfect confidence in the substance of the regressive sort of hypnotic memories. And so I wonder if there's elements of that that could be explained in some of these cases

where there's kind of a, again, I don't want to say a misremembering because I think that's unfair to claim it in that way, but perhaps a disassociated memory, kind of have people with like DID, just as a sensitive diet disorder, where typically, I guess my understanding, again, I'm not a psychologist, but from an Ben's child to trauma, there is a compartmentalization of their identity.

And so they're creating these altars in their mind, like alternate people, to say that me as person A actually didn't experience this trauma, as person B that experienced this. And it's a form of protecting themselves. Yes. And I will kind of, I'll take that one up, man, and say this, that there's also possibility that people, and I'm not denying that. That is, there probably are many cases like that, unfortunately, where that has occurred. And they're like, well, I just chalk it up to a, you know, a demon. or an alien or whatever. I think there are also cases where people have suffered so dramatically from some of these beings where they also create alternate scenarios in their mind to where it wasn't as bad or that wasn't what they were intending to do. They were trying to do something else, but it was me or something. And I do think that even getting back to your point, like where there are people that

completely shut down to where they have no memory of it. Like I never figured at one case, it was Todd Seas, who told his wife, he's a hunter, and he lives out in the country, and he tells his wife, he's like, honey, I'm going to get up early, get on my four-wheeler and go down, check the deer, check my, what they're called? Trailcams. Yeah. And he's like, I'm going to make sure, you know, we got some footage and some activity because I'm going to go hunting. Deer stands, too. That's what it was. And he's like, so I'll be back before noon or something. and he never came back and they found him. They found him in one of the other farmers, I guess, one of the farmers around there saw a craft hovering in the area that he usually haunted in and something going into the craft. Well, they found Todd's body and they did an autopsy and he had a lot of hematomas on his brain to the point where whatever he went through, it was busting the blood vessels in his brain

to where it just couldn't take it. And so what was his death classified? His name was Todd Seas. Todd Seas, yeah. I don't know how to pronounce his last name. I don't spell his last name. But to my memory, I think it was, and this has been dismissed and debunked by his family,

but they tried to pass it off. It was like some cocaine overdose or something, and everybody laughed at it. It was like, not Todd. The thing that found a dead snake with him, them to. This rules as cocaine toxicity. 39-year-old Pennsylvania man goes missing 2002 after writing as ATV to scout for deer.

Bodies recovered two days later in a dense part of the brush. Local authorities ruled the death as an accidental overdose, despite the official findings. The case generates widespread speculation due to the several unusual details. The case became heavily associated with urban legend and alien abduction theories because local residents reports seeing a dish-shaped object over the mountains at the time that he disappeared. Can you scroll down a touch more? researchers reported that he was found and his underwear looked emaciated and bore an expression of terror.

I also found a dead snake, I think, with him. Hmm. But you know, it's, there's so many avenues of research in this stuff and, you know, and I, and I, the point now where I take everything into consideration and I'm not denying the existence of, you know, benevolent beings. And I'm not even, because some people will kind of. a straw in my position while Nathaniel says are not aliens. That's a ridiculous notion. I'm not saying that there are no aliens. I'm simply saying that whatever we're dealing with is incredibly

deceptive and in many ways it's self-serving. And a lot of this, and I'll get crucified for this, is it cannot be quantified. That's simply demonic. There's something, and I've said this, since I began my career because I first got my feet wet with Inky Bay literature and I realized like, if they're leaving secretions, that's that, that, that, that's corporeal. There's a body there and people say, well, Nathaniel, we're not talking about fallen angels, we're not talking about demons, we're talking about consciousness, we're talking about disembodied consciousness. That's not disembodied.

So, and there's something else going on. That's where I'm at. And again, I'm not saying I'm correct. I'm saying that I'm just a researcher that's trying to understand this and get better questions to ask. Yeah. Okay, before we wrap up, Christos, you have a couple things.

That Reddit post I was talking about. Can you pull it up real quick? So this is the Gas leak Reddit post that I was referencing. Okay, posted note left in an apartment on Reddit from 11 years ago. It says this. Okay, it says on the 15th of April, I found a yellow a post note in handwriting that wasn't mine on my desk, reminded me to do some errands that I had to do that I told literally no one about. It was pretty odd. I chalked up to something maybe I did in my

sleep. Maybe I'm half awake. On the 19th, I find another post it on the back of my desk chair at the same handwriting as the previous note telling me to make sure I save my documents. I was freaked out. There was no other sound of break in, so I set up a webcam in my house aimed at my desk and use a security cam to record it. On the 28th, I woke out to find another post, this one saying, our landlord isn't letting me talk to you, but it's important we do. I mainly check the webcam folder in my computer and found nothing from the night before, but my computer's recycling bin had been emptied, which I'm certain I did not do recently,

indicating someone had noticed the webcam and deleted the files. You just scroll a little bit, and then click read more. They were saved straight to a folder on the desktop called webcam. On the first of May, I found another post note, this time on the outside of my door, nothing written on it. There also appeared to be post notes and many other doors in the apartment complex, all blank, all various colors. Do I have legal recourse here?

I have no proof except the post notes, but the writing in pen, the writing by my pen on the post of notes, so conceivably I could have fake them, would contact the police get me in trouble, should I consult my landlord, those also living in the complex, what do I do? Scroll down. It says, I pulled up a letter I received

from my landlord back when I moved in, and the handwriting is identical, could it count as evidence. Scroll down. Oh, what is this? Oh, what is it? Is this the, this is a explanation of that post. It says the original post without a stalker or intruder,

the user suffered severe headaches, confusion, extreme memory loss. A carbon monoxide detector eventually showed a dangerous reading of 100 ppm in the apartment. The gas caused memory blackouts and illusions, meaning that the user was writing the notes to themselves and completely forgot it. Can you go back to the original post and go to the comments really fast?

So I believe the top comment here was like, you seem sincere. It's possible your landlord's leaving notes, but it doesn't really make sense. It's likely you're writing the notes to yourself, but you're forgetting. Do you use post notes as reminders of any of the parts of your job or life?

It could be a physical problem you mentioned. Is there a carbon monoxide leak in the building at cheap CO2 conductor can detect it? And then scroll down, I think he answers this question. A little more. I have really bad headaches. I actually do have a CO2 detector. I guess I should probably take care of it and check it out.

And then there was an addendum to the comment that the person wrote, right above it if you scroll up. Oh, he said I had CO2 poisoning and thought my landlord were stocking me. So this is one of those cases from like, if this guy never did a CO2 detector, he'd be like, dude, I'm having severe bodily issues.

I'm having severe headaches and I feel awful. Also, I'm seeing these weird notes and these signs going on. And then if he were to move out of the house because he's like, oh, there's something haunting me, then he would move out and be like, that shit was crazy. All my symptoms went away. That's pretty weird.

you know, so like I wonder if like some subset of like these cases that we're talking about if like 1% of them can be explained like this. Yeah. And perhaps maybe this should be like the first step. Like if you're having like weird experiences, like get a CO2 detector. Check. Figure it out, man. Maybe a CO detector.

I guess that's technically what we're talking about monoxide. Monoxide. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So you got to check for CO. Don't get CO2. You're going to find a lot. You're going to find a lot.

I can sense it. Yeah, you get the CO detector. Check that out. maybe like, I don't know, go to a psychologist and get that checked out. And then from there, if it's still going on, maybe then you got to consult the big dogs. Absolutely. Now, Nathaniel, this has been absolutely wonderful. I really appreciate the time.

Where can the good people find you? You can find me on X. I'm back on. Not to say I enjoy it. And I'm on Instagram, Nathaniel Gillis. You can also subscribe to my platform, Paras Symposia. You can also follow Steve and I, Steve Mara, M-E-R-A. We have a weekly show called The N-H-I discussions

where we just brainstorm. Kind of like what we did tonight. Hell yeah. Appreciate having me on, man. Thank you so much, brother. Let's do it again soon. Absolutely.