Camp Gagnon - Divorce Lawyer: "Marriage Is a Lottery, But You Should Still Play" | James Sexton

Episode Date: March 11, 2024

James Sexton in the tent today to discuss the real reason love can fail and how marriage can ruin lives. He's a genius and a truly fascinating story teller. He might seem cynical, but i truly think he's just extremely realistic. WELCOME TO CAMP!!Edited and Produced by: @99OvrAll Thanks to Morgan and Morgan ZippexBlue chew for supporting the greatest show everTIMECODES00:00 Intro 1:19 Is Marriage antiquated? 9:42 What can replace marriage?13:44 Purpo...

Marriage is like the lottery, you're probably not going to win. It seems insane. It fails 56% of the time. But if you win, what you win is so good that you should buy a ticket. Is it more fun to advocate and work with the good guy or the bad guy? That's a great question no one has ever asked me. I love that. This is James Sexton.

He's a divorce lawyer with over 20 years of experience dealing with the most aggressive divorces in New York City history. And today, he's going to explain how to not. lose everything in a breakup. That's why I like pre-noms. You can come up with a rule set. And who is better to decide that than you and your wife when you're getting along? Like, why do we figure out how to fight when we're in a fight?

The simple red flags that your relationship is going to fail. When you wear rose-colored glasses, all the red flags are just flags. And we even talk about his most stressful days in court. I actually bombed so bad in court once that I happened to have the judge's cell phone number. And I called him crying that night. like a child. James is an extremely compelling speaker and his passion for his work really comes

through the entire conversation. And even at the end, he tells me some crazy comedy stories that I really enjoyed. So without further ado, enjoy James Sexton. William McCamp. Okay, let's talk about marriage. Yeah, all right. Is marriage dead? It's not dead because it's still super popular. I mean, should marriage be dead is the better question. Okay. And also, what is the problem to which marriage is a solution? That's the question. Like I, most people, there's an assumption you're going to get married, right? Like you're with somebody long enough and you sort of go like, oh, well, yeah, we're getting married. After 10 years, everyone's like, well, what are you doing?

Well, right, right. But if you go 10 years and you don't get married, you get the, what is wrong with you? Why are you not making an honest woman there? You know, why are you doing it? So there's an assumption that it's rational to get married, which as a divorce lawyer to me, and also as a person with fucking eyes, it seems insane. because it fails 56% of the time. And that's just the ones that end in divorce. Like tack on another 10% that stay together for the kids

or stay together because they don't want to give away half their shit. And you're talking about a technology fails 66% 70% of the time. Put it in perspective. Toyota had a car that the brake lines failed like 0.001% of the time. They recalled the entire model. Stock price plummet. And they didn't care because they were like, we cannot take that risk. 70% chance you're going to get divorced

and people are like, I assume you're going to want to do that thing. As opposed to, like, if your friend said, like, I'm getting married, you wouldn't be like, what the, why? What are you doing? You guys are happy. Why would you do that?

So I think marriage is a technology we've just never asked questions about. Like, it was just an assumed thing. And I think some of that's born of religion that it was like assumed. Some of it was born of the, I think the nature of like pair bonds and the nature of like,

how familial structures develop, you know. But I think we're starting as a culture to, like, ask more questions, you know. Do you think it's become antiquated or do you think it was always futile? Well, I mean, look, we're not living in the same world. Like, I think when you died at 40, you know, if you were lucky. And women died in childbirth most of the time, then maybe marriage made sense, right? Like, you got married, you had some kids. The kids worked the farm or the kids, you know, participate.

So like in most, at least a couple of your kids had die because we didn't understand germ theory. We didn't have antibiotics. Like it was pretty, like, it was pretty reasonable to be like, hey, we got to survive. Like, survival was the key. How much time today did you have to devote to your survival? Like, a couple of seconds maybe? Like, you know, if you're hungry, the food's right there. Like, more than ever.

Like, they'll bring it to you, you know? So I think that it made sense when the model of our society required, you know, a certain, dynamic between people and a certain like, like, okay, we got to consolidate our tribes and we got to bring our lands together and our families together so we can protect what we have. Is that really necessary anymore? Is that still something that, you know, you need? I mean, we just never ask questions about it. Like, if I said to you like, oh, you know, where's your horse in carriage? Like, you'd say, like, oh, I don't have a horse in carriage. Well, why? Well, because I don't need one. Like, I don't live in a society where that would be something I need. Okay, well, there was a time

where everybody had a buggy whip, you know? And I'm not saying that, like, there wasn't a place for it at the time, you know. And the last buggy whip company that went out of business made the absolute best buggy whip. Yeah. But they still went out of business because the technology just was useless. So I guess the question now would be, okay, again, what's the problem to which marriage is a solution? And do you have that problem? And so what would be the problem in which marriage is a solution?

For who? For me? For who? I think it's a personal question. I think there are people that would say, like people would give you answers. Like, oh, I think I'm, you know, loneliness. Okay, well, you could be married and be really lonely. And there's actually something really depressing about being married and lonely, you know? It's like being really hungry in a restaurant. Yeah, yeah. It's almost more isolating. Yeah, it's why I think New York is unique in its depression because it's like I'm surrounded by people and I feel completely alone. And that's a special kind of terrifying existential ang. You know, if I'm in the middle of the woods in upstate New York and I feel alone, that's appropriate. You know, so I think, you know, marriage, if you say, well, I want to be married because I want companionship, like, okay, well, is marriage a guarantee of companionship? And is a guarantee of the kind of companionship you want to have? Like, is marriage tied to our very non-Buddhist desire to cling, to hold on to things, right? To hold on to things that you can't hold on to? Like, I happen to believe that to love anything is a form of insanity, right?

Because to love anything is to accept the inevitability of losing it. And nothing drove that more home to me than having dogs. Right. You know, you get a dog, it's just nothing but love. It's the greatest thing, you know. And it loves you so much. Like, I aspire to be the man my dogs think I am. But the minute you get them, you're like, okay, this thing like owns a piece of my heart now.

Yeah. And the clock is ticking. and I'm going to lose this thing. Now that being said, I would never trade the joy for not having to felt the loss. Right. This is like Shakespearean. Yeah, I'm so grateful that I, a good friend of mine passed some years ago unexpectedly in his early 30s. And I remember thinking like there are so many people in the world today who aren't feeling the pain of his loss.

And I'm so glad I'm not one of them. Like I'm so glad I feel this pain because this pain is a function of having no. the beauty of this soul. Right. So I heard a beautiful quote in that exact vein. I forgot. I think it was, well, that actor,

Garfield, something Garfield. Andrew Garfield? Oh, yes, he was talking about his mom. Exactly. He was like, the grief that I feel is, is the love that I still hold

or something to that effect. Yeah, I think I saw that interview. It's a beautiful way to look at it. Yeah, 100%. That the grief isn't bad. You shouldn't be, you know, no, I guess, obtuse to the grief,

that you should kind of be grateful for it because that is all the love that you still possess for this person. But I think that that's what it, look, You know, there's a clinging. Like there's a, we want, we feel good and we want to find a way to stay feeling good, right? Like, like that's the thing, I mean, that's the thing about psychedelics, you know, is that, like,

Ram Dass said, you know, like psychedelics let you see the heart of God, but you can't stay. And so it's a very good lesson that it's like, oh, I feel so good right now. I see this thing right now that I didn't see before, but then it fades away. And so the question is, is how do you hold it still in your? line of sight. So I think love it's the same thing. Like all of my writing about relationships and staying together is, is about this idea of, look, there was a time where the joy and connection of you and your partner was like task one. Like that was what, like this person was a stranger to you and you wanted them to love you and you wanted to love them and you wanted to be good at

loving them. And you wanted them to be really good at loving you. And then after a while, it just becomes like, you know, it's like the thing you got when you first got it and you were so excited about it. And then you just become like blind to it because it's just there. So I really do believe like marriage is unhealthy in my opinion in so far as it becomes a way to like just start taking a person for granted because they have a legal status now. And to leave would be challenging. I got to give them half my shit or I'd have to pay them some money or I'd have to. but I don't want someone to like lay their head on a pillow next to me because they're afraid to give up half their shit

or because I've become a habit. Like I want it to be that they close their eyes and they go, my life is better for the fact that this person's next to me. And I want to wake up tomorrow and I want to see them because when I see them it makes me happy. Every day they choose me rather than being legally obligated to stay with me. Exactly right. And so marriage because it's this, I mean, first of all,

there's a school of thought that just says like, who were the first people? that said, like, I love you so much. Let's get the government involved. Like, have they never been to the DMV? Like, had they never seen what the government does to stuff? Have you ever said, like, this is good. But if we got the government involved, it would be so much better.

Like, love is just not something that I ever want to. We need to get the government involved. I think the legislature would be able to sort out our breakup much better than we could. You know, that's nuts. Who came up with that? So now you bring up the buggy whip as a antiquated technology that gets replaced by a better technology. Yes. So my question with marriage, if it is an antiquated technology, what is the better technology that will replace the institution?

Well, see, I don't know. I want to make sure there's a distinction between marriage as a relationship between two people, a pair bond, where you are monogamous to each other, where you are devoted to each other, where you try to make each other's happiness a priority, where you try to support each other during difficult times, where you try to see each other's blind spots. And like with love say, hey, you know, you're not seeing that, but you're better than that. Come on. Like, come on, you're better than that. Like, I know you and you're better than that. Like, and that's beautiful, right? I never want to replace that.

I think that's a very human need. It's a beautiful human need. But to think that that is marriage, like that marriage is what makes you that way, I think is insane. I think marriage is a legal status. No one knows that better than a divorce lawyer because, That's all I'm helping people do is bury the body of the dead thing, you know, that wasn't what they wanted it to be. That wasn't what they thought it would be. And so I don't think we have to, I mean, first of all, I don't think it's one-size-fits-all in relationships.

Like, I know people, the majority of people I know that are in happy relationships, happy long-term monogamous relationships. And I should say that that is not the majority of people I know. It's a minority. It's a very limited number of people that are in real long-term monogamous relationships where they continue to really find those joyful and adding value to their life. So that's a minority. But the ones that I find that are able to do that have a level of happiness and comfort that a lot of the other people, including myself, don't have.

And so that's why I say, you know, I think marriage is like the lottery. You're probably not going to win. But if you win, what you win is so good that you should buy a ticket. You should try. Like, give it a shot, you know, have a pre-nup, but give it a shot. And I don't think the odds of a successful marriage are as bad as the odds of winning the lottery. I think that the odds are quite a bit better than that. But I definitely think that the odds are not in your favor unless you remember that this is not permanently gifted this love.

It's loaned. And like, always be closing. Like always keep trying. You know, when you met your wife, like you were trying to close. You know, you were like you wanted to be this best version of yourself, you know, and you wanted her to like be, think you were hilarious and fun and all these things. And that's great. But like in early dating, you kind of have spanks on your personality, you know, like you're trying to.

And I think that, you know, eventually with time and familiarity, people start to sort of fall away from that. And I really, and I, by the way, I don't think you should wear spanks to bed. Like I think eventually you should take the makeup off. You should sort of, because makeup's not lying. Makeup is accentuating the positive, decensuating the negative. But you're going to see her without makeup on a lot of the time. Sometimes it's lying.

Sometimes you've seen makeup and you're like, that is crazy. Most of the time it's not. Filters are lying. Filters are straight up lying. Yeah, yeah. Makeup is, I mean, the degrees of lying are pretty shocking. I've seen a few people that I go like without makeup,

you go like, holy shit. It's a totally different thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But men have beards, so it's even. Men have beards, yeah. All you got to see is Drake without a beard. You see Drake without a beard. You go, what happened?

Men's makeup. I know, it really is. Yeah, in my line of work, see, I can't. I always have to look, like, I just came out of, like, a 1950s, you know, courtroom movie. Like, I have to do the, like, because the judges, there's a lot of, like, old white male judges. They want you to look at a certain way. Kind of like a banker from the 70s or something. Yeah.

I was just on a vacation, and I didn't shave for the week. I was delightful. It was so great, you know, but then I came back and immediately had to shave because I had to show up in my lawyer costume again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get it. But I'm curious about marriage as far as the purpose of marriage. I do think that people have lost the philosophy of what it is for. And maybe the purpose changes from person to person.

I think it does. It changes based on your religious background. I mean, there's a lot of people that marriage has a religious definition for them, and that's why they want to be married. For some people, I think it is cultural in the sense that there's a credence to. it, right? So if I say, oh, that's my girlfriend, it's like, well, you could be his girlfriend for a week. Like, what does that mean? It could just be somebody who met a couple weeks ago and you're sleeping with. When you say that's my wife, people like, oh shit, okay, you know, like you're allowed in the emergency room then, okay? You know, like you're allowed in the room.

That's your wife, you're allowed. Right. Like, oh, no, no, I got to answer that question because they're the husband, you know. You're allowed to hit her in public. It's your wife. Exactly right. Yeah, it depends on where you are actually, yeah. But no, I mean, you really are given a certain deference when you're someone's spouse. There's this assumption that this is the person most intimately connected to you. And I don't think that that's a bad thing. I think it... But I also don't know that it's the most mature thing, right?

Like, I don't... I'm not saying that immature things aren't good. Like, we're sitting in a camp setting. I mean, like, it's fine. You know, like, I think it's good. Sometimes it's good to be a little immature, especially when you embrace it. And you know that, okay, yeah, I'm being childlike now.

It's fun. Like, I'm coloring with crayons and meat and peanut butter and jelly. It's fucking awesome, you know? It's one of the reasons why I think people love having kids It's because they let you be a kid again. They let you see everything with that fascination again. Exactly. It's awesome.

So I think in marriage, like, yeah, it's nice to be like, oh, I'm her husband. So that means I'm like the most. But it really is like when you're a kid and you're like, well, that's my friend, but that's my best friend. That's my best friend. It's rooted in insecurity, I guess. Yeah, like if you said to me as a grown-ass man, like, oh, he's my best friend. He's my best friend in the world.

You kind of go like, dude, what's wrong with you? Like, it's okay. Like, you could just say he's, I've been friends for 20 years. Just come out, dude. Yeah, exactly. Like, it's just fine. Embrace it. You know, there's parades and shit. You'll have a blast. So I really think that it is a, I don't want to say immaturity. I understand when a little kid is like, you're not my friend.

You're my best friend. They're trying to say, hey, I love you like in this very special way, you know. But I think what you're supposed to as an adult realize that like, oh, yeah, you love people in different ways. Like, the way you love your mom, the way you love your wife, the way you love your dog. Like, they're all love, right? but they're a different kind of love. So when you're saying like this is my wife and I love this person, I understand you're trying to say

I love this person most of all. Of all the eight billion souls on the planet, this is the one I want to hold hands and move through this thing with. And that's awesome. But again, to think that the marriage causes you to feel that way, I think that's ridiculous. That's mistaking cause and effect in a huge way.

It's mistaken correlates. correlation for causation in a really dangerous way because the heartbreak that comes from an ugly divorce is like it has a ripple effect. I mean, on children, on you, your own view of love and yourself, the economic repercussions of divorce. Like, we as divorce lawyers make way more money than we should. Like, it's insane how expensive it is to get divorced. And sometimes clients will say to me, like, well, how the hell do people afford to get divorced?

And I go, they go through their retirement savings. They burn through the equity in their parents' house. Like they spend the inheritance they would have received. And that's unbelievable. For what? For our desire to be loved and our desire to love, right? Like, it didn't have to go that way. Now, is there any benefit?

Because I agree, the desire to want to say, like, that's not my girlfriend, that's my wife, is, I think, I think immature and I do think it is insecure and I don't think it's necessary at all. But I do think that there's a benefit in standing in front of your community, family and friends, and saying, I'm going to commit myself to this person. Even when things get hard, I'm making a vow to all these people here today that I'm going to really try hard to keep this thing together. And that makes the most sense to me. Like as explanations for marriage, the idea of a public declaration that this is a person I want to have this very special bond with. and I want all of you, A, I want to thank you for bringing me here and bringing this person here. So you became who we are because of all of you.

And so we're grateful to you. So this is a celebration in that sense. And it's also a public declaration of, hey, if you see me fucking it up, let me know. Because I love this. And that's why I still get very misty-eyed when I go to weddings. I love wedding, not for like future business purposes. I love a wedding. But it really is like the triumph of faith over reason.

It's like this like I sit there and I'm a divorce lawyer. Like all I do all day is working the clay of the misery that comes out of this when it goes wrong, the majority of the time. And I am still sitting there going like, oh yeah, like it's going to go for it. Like I hope it works for them. Like it's so lovely to see two people like just love each other so much and bring such value to each other's lives. Like I don't know. I go a totally rubbery one when I see it.

Like I just love it. think that's valuable. And again, I don't think it has to be necessarily within the confines of what we see as like institutionalized marriage in America. I think you can do it without that. I think you can do a symbolic ceremony with your family and friends and say, hey, I'm going to keep myself without any of the government involved. Well, and by the way, like, look, you've been to a bunch of weddings. Did you ever like check the paperwork? Like, you watch the ceremony, but did you ever say, like, oh, I haven't seen the license? Like, did you ever say to your folks? Like, I know you guys say you're married. Could I see the paperwork? Like, you know. I will look into that,

actually. Yeah, people will not yet. You start being like, I'd just like to see. I brought a gift, but before I give you the gift, but before I give you the gift, I would just like to make sure you actually signed where the line was dotted. And consummated, the whole deal. I go very old school.

But you know, people are very showy on the internet now. So maybe they would live stream it or something, have like a nest cam set up. Yeah, make some extra money. Oh, look at that. Oh, wow. Okay, sure. That looks, boy, he's just got a lot of cardio. That's impressive that you could do that.

I do think it's valuable in that regard. But again, my whole thing, I've even told people this, like, I grew up very Catholic. I got married when I was 23 years old. I grew up 23 years old to my high school sweetheart. Nobody does that. Nobody does that. Even, even... Well, no, people do it. It just doesn't work. Exactly. Like, I married my college sweetheart and it didn't work. I mean, it worked in the sense that we had two great kids and they're adults now. But we also had a friendly divorce. But yeah, it doesn't usually end well. Yeah. And so people hear that and they're like, what are you doing? Especially in New York. People are like, their minds are just on the floor.

Like, what are you? Why are you throwing it all the way? But some of that, as you said, it's rooted in that religious perspective. It's rooted in that, the way you were raised. I went to Catholic school my whole life. I had that view of marriage. Even when I had sort of left the faith, it's still the framing

under which I understand the divine. It's still like the metaphor and the stories that I grew up with. Your niece in mind is built in with these things. You're never getting rid of that. You're never getting rid of that. Like if you're raised in a polytheistic religion forever, God is going to be polytheistic to you. Like to me,

they'll always be Jesus. That's the cast characters. It's the metaphor that I see things through. And there's a tremendous amount of beauty in it. Like, I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I think, you know, there's some things that need to get put down in religions that I think were the function of the early church. And then there's things that I'm like, that's a beautiful story. Like, it's a beautiful inspirational story. Again, Star Wars is a beautiful inspirational story. But if you start telling me, you know, if you say to me, you know, the struggle of the Jedi, like, makes me think that I should rise to the level and be the best I can be. I'm like, fuck, yeah, preach, man. But if you

saying, by the way, wookies are real. I would be like, okay, now you're nuts. Like, now you're nuts. So if you tell me, you know, Jesus teaches us that, you know, God is a father who loves you no matter what and that the kingdom of God is within you and all around you, I'm in, sign me up. But if you tell me that, oh, and by the way, a guy lived in the belly of a whale for a lawyer, or that the actual presence, like this wafer became the flesh of Christ, that's not as inspirational to me. of mental. I can see that. Whereas if you say to me, Jesus was saying, hey, think of me. Every time you eat this bread, when you gather together and drink this wine, remember it like my blood. Like, that's beautiful. So I think that you're absolutely on to something that, you know,

the roots of marriage are rooted in, I think, something very beautiful and also something very practical. The practical part doesn't work anymore. Like we're not worrying about preserving land ownership anymore. Sure, sure. But I think. I think the spiritual piece of it, like the standing before man and God in however form you see God and saying, I declare that I'm going to make the effort. You know, love is a verb. Right. You know, so like you love your wife, but you also have to love your wife. Like the verb, you know, like I'm going to love her, you know.

And so I think we lose sight of that. I think that marriage can be antagonistic to that because now she's here. She's here. We're locked in. We're in the ring. So she's mine. I don't have to worry about that anymore. I don't have to like sustain it and feed it and care for it.

And I've seen so many people, again, from where I'm sitting. I'm a divorce lawyer. So I'd be like an oncologist being like, why does everybody have cancer? It's like, well, everybody you has cancer. They wouldn't meet you otherwise. Right, exactly. So I'm surrounded by it. But I have to tell you, like the statistics are not in favor of marriage.

No, I will say, I talk to a lot of my friends and they're like, Mark, you got married young, why'd you do it, yada, yada. and I always tell them if you're not planning on having kids, I wouldn't get married. Like for me, just in the way I see the world, despite growing up very Catholic and even still having a lot of like, you know, friendliness towards the Catholic faith and like enjoying my Catholic experience, I, if I wasn't going to have kids, I wouldn't get married. I don't really see the purpose. Maybe I would do some type of like civil union, domestic partnerships, some other type of thing. I mean, there's tax benefits to it. There are certain other things. I would consult with an attorney and be like, hey, what should we do?

Yeah, what should we do? Yeah. And usually the answer is get married, but I have a pre-nup. You know? Maybe that. But a bigger, I mean, look, the truth is a bigger bond in terms of long-term being tied to someone is having a kid with someone. So that is my, so I kind of did this as a joke before, which I'll digress. But basically, like, women get married when they get engaged and men get married when they have kids.

Like, I believe that. No one gets married when they get married when they get married when they show their kids, when they show their friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And men are getting married when they're like, I have a kid. I'm like locked in. With that being said, I do. think that marriage, I think, is a healthful institution for children. Yeah.

And rearing children and creating a familial bond and a structure for a family. Right. Right. And that's because I think, well, no, I think you're absolutely right. Because I think children view things that way, right? Like, children want to have a best friend. Like, if your little kid says, you know, he's my best friend, I wouldn't go, that's a very immature way of viewing connections to other people.

Like, fuck you, dude. It's a kid. Let them be a kid. Like, kids like that there's good guys and bad guys. Like, the world is really complex. And kids can't quite get that. Sure. And that's okay.

Like, you don't want to know that when you're seven. So I think it's okay when kids like, ooh, that's the bad guy. How do you know? Because he's wearing a certain outfit and the music plays that's like bad music when he comes. And that's how it's supposed to be for kids. And then the good guy's always good and the bad guy's always bad. And, like, that's how it works. And then you later start to figure out nuance.

Like, this is a good guy, but they also have some bad traits. And this is a bad guy. But maybe there's a bad guy. but maybe the reason they're bad is because of some things that happen. So you start to understand the nuance of human emotional complexity. Well, marriage for the benefit of children is to let them know that, hey, we're mom and dad, we're married. We're not going anywhere. Like, this thing's locked in.

But that's also what makes it so unbelievably painful when that doesn't work out. And you have children. Because kids are taught, like, oh, yeah, they're my mom, they're my dad, they're married. Like, they're locked in, that's that. And then it's one day you turn around and go, oh, yeah, no, we're not going to be married anymore. Dad's going to live here and mom's going to live there. And it's like, wait, what? Because if you look at it from a psychological standpoint, you take the child from idealization

and rip them into individuation way before they're ready. You know, when you're little, my mom can do anything. She knows everything. And my dad is the strongest man in the world and he could beat up anybody. And that's, you need that because the world's terrifying. And that makes the world slightly less terrifying, you know. You're not afraid of the monster under the bed if dad's there because dad knows how to take care. Dad'll beat that monster right up.

It's okay. And that's what you need. You want your kid to feel the way. So I think marriage, yeah, it provides that to kids, this sense of like, oh, no, we're together. We're mom and we're dad and we're together. And you don't have to worry about that. That's why, by the way, when you look at, and they've done a lot of long-term studies on this, is a great book called The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, where they did a long-term study of children of divorce when they became adults.

And what they found was that it wasn't divorce that screwed kids up. It was parental conflict that screwed kids up. And parental conflict happens to correlate with divorce a lot of the time, right? Because people who don't get along tend to get divorced. But not always. But not always. There's people who are like, oh, no, we're married. We're staying married.

But we fucking are each other. And then there are people that split up. And they have tremendous love for each other. And they tell their children, listen, mom and dad don't love each other in the very special way that married people are supposed. to, but we both love you and everything's going to be okay and we'll always be a family. And those kids grow up to be pretty well adjusted. And they don't have a lot of those second order effects that you see in kids that are raised in this environment of terrible conflict, which, by the way, sometimes marriage,

you know, it exacerbates in the worst possible ways. So I think if you really care about your kids, I agree that there should be a tremendous amount of respect for your co-parent, even when you disagree with them. Because your child loves your co-parent so much. And even if you, like, I have to say as a man with an ex-wife that I had two children with, I didn't always agree with her, but I always was respectful, especially with my sons. I was always like, hey, your mom loves you. And that's your mom. And you show her respect, you know? And, like, that's a real thing, you know. And I don't want to blow my spot up. But, like, my sons are 27 and 24 now was my ex-wife's birthday the other day.

And I texted them both and said, hey, it's mom's birthday. Don't forget, you know. And then later in the day, I texted her. And I said, hey, I just wanted to wish you a happy birthday. I hope you have a great one. She's been remarried for like 12 years. She texted me back and she goes, oh, thanks so much. Hey, and the boys remembered.

And I was like, and I texted back and I said, look at that. I guess we did something right, you know, all the vast, happy birthday. You know, but if you love your kids, like, of course, you want to treat your co-parent with love and respect, even if they're not right for you as a partner. Right. You know? At the very least, they brought these things you love into the world. I mean, right.

And they love these kids, in theory, they love your kids as much as you do. You're the only two people that love those kids that much. A small fan club. Yeah. But the problem is that we've got this world now where it's like, it's so in vogue to hate your ex. and it's also like so acceptable to shit talk your ex. And it's kind of like assumed that you don't like your ex. It's assumed that your ex is a bad person.

And that seems very odd to me because I just don't know why we don't view relationships like chapters in a long book, you know, like, and we had this certain chapter and then that chapter ends and maybe find some new love and something different and, you know, that you find something that suits you better. I look at my ex-wife and her husband of 12 years, and, like, they're really good for each other. Like, he's way better for her than me. And we're totally different, he and I. So, like, if he's right for her, I'm the wrong one, you know.

Yeah. Yeah, I do feel that whenever people are, like, so vehemently just angry at their ex. It's a bad look. I don't want a victim blame, okay? But sometimes I do look at people, and they're like, yeah, my ex was a, you know, a terrible person. And he was an awful guy and he would lie and yada, yada. and a little part of me is like, why did, like, I feel like if this person changed so drastically,

you should have kind of seen this a little bit before you got into like a 10-year relationship. And it is rarely that. I mean, first of all, I'm always, as someone who does what I do for a living, like, I'm amazed and disgusted by how people are always the fucking hero of their own story. Because I just wasn't raised that way.

Maybe it's the Catholic guilt thing, I don't know. But like, I was never, I was never, when I tell the story of my life, I'm not the hero. Like, I'm more like a Walter White character. Like, I'm very like, yeah, I did this right, but then I did this. So it's like, don't get too excited, you know. And so I really don't get when people come in and they're just blameless. You know, they're just blameless.

They're just blameless. They're just blameless. Like, I have clients who are like, oh, yeah, you know, he's a terrible alcoholic. And I'm like, really, like, when did that start? And they're like, oh, well, he was always like that. I'm like, so you decided to have three fucking kids with him? What are you doing? Like, what are you thinking?

Like, there's 8 billion people in the world. And you just were like, oh, well, no, I've invested in this one. So you married it. And then you had a kid. And then you had another. And then you had another. And it's not even like it happened in rapid succession. Yeah.

You have a 10-year-old and a seven-year-old and a three-year-old. Like, you had long windows of time between that where you could have been like, yeah, I'm not having another kid with this person. But if he has a third kid, then he'll clean it up. Well, that's the humor. Then he will. That's the humor of it. As divorce lawyers, you know, I'll tell you how the sausage is made. You know, we call the second child the Ocho.

because really you thought you were going to save the marriage, but all you got was 8% more child support. Because child support is 17% for one kid, 25% for 2. So that kid's the Ocho. Wow. Like he's just all you got was 8%. You thought, oh, you know what, let's have another baby. And that'll distract us from how much we hate each other

and how miserable this is going. And it will for a little while. Like it will. It's great for a little while. Like falling feels like flying for a little while. For a little while. And then you hit the fucking ground. Yeah.

And then the Narcan hits. And you're like, okay, wow. All those. receptors. You know more heroin. Yeah, exactly. But see, and that's what people do is let's have another kid. Let's create another distraction.

Let's get a different house because now we've outgrown this one. And the next thing you know, you've amassed property, a bunch of kids, and you just can't stand each other. And that is a perfect storm that then leads right into my office. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because it's 2024. And it's time to talk about something important. When you are seriously hurt, your injury could be worth me.

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529 from your cell phone. This is a paid advertisement. Now let's get back to the show after the short disclaimer. So if you were someone, if you were talking to someone that said, you know, hey, I'm 23 years old and I want to get married and I want to have three kids, I want to live in the suburbs, what would be your

advice to them going forward in that pursuit. I kind of just did that at dinner with my son. But yeah. Let's bring him in here. Yeah, yeah. You know what? What I would say is I would say that again, I think that that's a worthy thing to aspire to. Like, what is it that you want? What is it that you have with this person?

You know? And if the answer is, this person, I love them so much and I know they love me. Like my older son has a girlfriend for three years. and she's lovely. Like when you spend time with them, it's obvious to me that she doesn't love the idea of him. She loves him. And she doesn't have any aspirate.

Like she doesn't think he's perfect. She sees him the way I do, which is, yeah, you really like have to get your act together on a couple of levels, but on a couple of levels you're amazing. And to watch her feel that way about him gives me tremendous joy. Because I'm like, oh, good.

Someone sees it. Someone sees how awesome he is, you know? And so that's a wonderful feeling. But what are you trying to do with this? Like is the idea of, okay, we're going to get married because we want to confer certain legal status on this relationship. We want to have certain financial benefits that come with being married. We want to protect certain interests if one of us died or got sick.

Like those are pragmatic, practical reasons to get married. If you say, we want to get married because we want to hold on to this bond we have together, why would you need to get married to do that? I don't know what, like, if it's true for you, Okay. Like it might be. You know, we're not all the same, right? Like there are people that say, I want to get a tattoo of my mom's name on my arm. Okay. Were you worried you'd forget it?

I mean, legitimately. Or is it that you believe that this will remind you every day in a way that putting a picture of her on the glass of the thing you brush your teeth in front of? wouldn't do, like, let's talk about why you're doing what you're doing. And again, I'm not saying what's right for me is right for you or vice versa. But just don't, why are we assuming something that is such a miserable failure for most people is a good thing? Why? If there was a restaurant where I said 70% of the people who eat here get food poisoning, wouldn't you not assume that's the place to eat?

Right. You would say, like, maybe you're a betting person who wants to eat there because you got like a Russian roulette vibe going on. Or maybe you're like, hey, listen, but the food's so good that if you don't get food poisoning, it's worth it. And even if you do get food poisoning, it was worth it because it tastes so good going in. So your issue is less with marriage as an institution more that marriage is a default. Marriage is an assumption. That it should not be an assumption that when you're in your specific individualized relationship, you and your partner should be looking at this saying, hey, what is the best best path? 100% listen, the placebo effect is an effect.

So if someone says like, oh, when you take this pill, it's a sugar pill, but like people think that so it has it, okay, great. If it works for you, great. Like I know people that microdose psilocybin. And there's plenty of studies that say that at the level of what they're taking, it's totally useless. I know people that take tons of vitamins. They're pissing it out. They literally are paying a bunch of money to have interestingly colored pee. But you know what?

If it makes you feel better, it's effective. go for it, man, whatever, you know. But the problem I have with marriage is it's not just that. It actually, in my observation, becomes antagonistic to the thing. Because the reason why you're doing it, it's not serving that reason. It's not actually bonding you any closer.

It's not actually giving you any more security. It's not, like if you have a seatbelt, but it's not connected to anything, you're actually worse off. This is false security. Because you think if I told you, oh, there's an airbag, don't worry. Okay, you're just going to sit back then. But if I don't tell you, by the way, the airbag's not hooked up.

And even if it was, it doesn't actually do anything. You'd be like, all right, well, then I'm going to sit in the back. Or I'm not going to ride in the car. So that's my point is that what we are selling people an idea of what marriage is and what it will do, meaning it will sustain something or it will transform something. or it will like we're selling people by the way and we and this is all unspoken. Like how many people really sat you down and we're like so why are you getting married? A couple actually.

I will say you're a unique soul though. My family had a very interesting perspective. My parents had seven kids. Everyone got married and everyone's still together. That's amazing. Which is I do think is rare, but I do think the way my mom. But I don't think that's a coincidence. No, no, no, no, I don't.

I think the way my mom talked about marriage, it was very like, I hate to say this because it sounds loveless, but I do think it's realistic that the way she described was very professional. She's like, you need to find someone

that you're compatible with that you are willing to work through things with that you can really form a partnership with. Wait, how's that love? See, here's what I'll tell you to push back on that.

That makes perfect sense to me. And how's that loveless? Because, again, the idea socially that we're agreeing is wrong is that, oh, it's supposed to be this whirlwind of emotions and romance that never goes away that you guys are sitting.

in the subway. But I don't imagine you view your wife as a roommate. No. Okay. So, so, like, I have a friend, very successful physician guy to do jihitsu with. It's handsome as hell. You know, great at jiu-s, easy guy to hate because he's like a doctor. He was in med school. He's good looking. He's smart. Yeah, fuck that guy. I was like, I hope he has a small dick because otherwise I got nothing on this guy. And he was, you know, dating all kinds of women. And then he had an arranged marriage. He's Muslim, very devout Muslim family. And they set up an arranged. marriage. And I said to him, I was like, dude, because we're jiu-jitsu friends. We were, like, rolled around, had each other's

balls in our face. So you kind of, we're bonded. I was like, dude, what are you doing? Like, you'd be out of crushing it, man. You're going to be a fucking doctor. You're handsome as hell. Like, what are you doing? You know, you're going to let your mom pick somebody? And he was like, listen, my parents know, know, they love me. And, you know, marriage is about, he's like, my parents, that's how

their marriage came together. And, you know, I trust them. I was like, dude, I don't know about this, you know? And they, he had an arranged marriage. And I have to tell you some, his wife, about the, about the coolest woman I've ever met, they're having a blast. They picked somebody amazing. And by the way, she won the lottery with this guy. And they're both gorgeous. Yeah. And they're both awesome. And they're having a blast from what I can tell. He's been married, I don't know, five, six years, I think, by now. And, but they entered into it with the

mindset you're describing. They're like, okay, this is a certain type of relationship. We are going to be committed to each other in this way. We're going to build a life together, a family together. We're going to look for each other's blind spots. We're going to be partners. Because really when you think about it, like your spouse is your roommate, your travel partner, your vacation buddy, your financial partner, your sexual partner. Like there's like your sleeping partner. Like there's so many things.

And we almost act like it's magic, you know, because attraction is magic. I mean, attraction is just, you can't explain it. Spiritual. Right, you just meet somebody and you're like, oh, you know, like, you don't know what it is. I mean, that's why I never had a problem with like, you know, it never made, even though I was raised Catholic and like you were told homosexuality was this terrible thing. I was always like, why? Like, why is that a, like, I don't, I never had same-sex attraction, but I was always like, I can't explain why I like chicks with dark hair. I can't explain why I like boobs.

It's not like they do anything. You know, like, if you're not nursing, like, they're just there, but they're awesome. Like, they just make me happy. And I have no idea why. So if there's some guy who like, see you the dudes, like it makes him feel happy. Like, God bless. Like, because if you took boobs for me, I'd be sad, you know, so I don't want to take that from anybody.

You have to marry a dude. Right. And if they said to me, you'll learn to love the dude. I would be like, I won't. I won't. Like, I know I won't, you know. So, or we'll teach you to not love boobs. No, you won't.

I promise. I love them too much. You know, that's like saying I'll teach you to not love nachos. I love them so much. you know. So I really do believe that that we have got ourselves convinced that attraction leads to marriage as an inevitability, right? Yeah, I think that's foolish. And I just think that's foolish because I really believe that, again, like, we fall in love really fast and we fall out of love somewhat slowly.

But I always say we fall out of love the way we go bankrupt, very slowly, and then all at It's like, and then off the cliff. So when people say to me like, oh, that marriage you broke up because he's fucking his secretary, it's like, mm, yes. Yes, that was the nail in the coffin. But there was a lot there before that. Like, there was a lot of disconnection. This argument and this thing and this thing unresolved. Look, anybody who's been married.

I mean, I don't know your marriage individually, but you've got to, if you've been in a long-term relationship, you know, you're sitting there, you're having a conversation. about which is a good place to go to brunch with your friends next weekend. And, you know, you disagree on what place is good. And five minutes later, it's like, and I never liked your sister. And you're like, wait, where the fuck did that come from? How long have you been carrying that around? And it really is that there's a lot that goes unsaid and carried around and resentment builds up. And if you don't take the time to like, okay, wait, we got to clear that out a little bit.

Like, we got to, what are you walking around with? What did I do right this week? What did I do wrong this week? Let me know because I care about this relationship. I don't want to see it. Like, I have clients. I remember my son when he was quite young. We were having the discussion you do

like when you're trying to explain what you do for a living. And when you're a divorce lawyer, it's kind of hard to explain to a five-year-old what you do for a living. And I said, well, I have to go and he said, oh, are you doing a trial? Because you understood what a trial was

that I'd like go in and put on a show. And I said, no, today we're doing discovery. And he said, what's discovery? And discovery is like, you know, exchange of financial information, attendant to a divorce. So we're figuring out what assets are there, what the value is, and how we're going to divide it. And he said, what's discovery? And I being a smart ass said, because his mother was listening, I said, it's what you get after leaving the toilet seat up for too long. Like, because

that's the truth. Like, it really is, like, you left the cap off the toothpaste for 15 years, and now I'm going to fucking take your head off. Because I can't. Like, I've got you in my sights now, and I'm going to murk you. I'm going to pay sex in 750 bucks an hour to just torture you to death because you annoyed me and I had to put up with your sister for that long or whatever it is and I have to tell you

like there's got to be more creative ways like I've jokingly said like we should make divorces should be like what was that show that Joe Rogan did Fear Factor You know it'll be like

custody trials instead of like getting psychiatrists involved and like corporacy fuck it like you want the kid all right eat bull testicles will eat bull testicles

which one of you will lay in a vat of tarantulas for this kid you know somebody's going to tap out Somebody's gonna be like, yeah, fuck it, you can have them. I'll see him on weekends. I'll see him on weekends. It's fine.

We're splitting the baby in half. You're gonna east you have an aside. Don't do it. I had a judge a couple of weeks ago say these people could not agree on the dog. They could not agree on the dog. They both loved the dog and they were fighting about the dog. And the judge said, okay, I'm ordering the dog to be sold and the proceeds divided. And he can do that because in New York State, a dog is chattel, it's property.

So he was like, I'm going to order the dog to be sold and the proceeds divided. Next issue. And of course, what happened? We walked out of there and we're like, okay, we're not selling the dog. We have to figure this out. We're going to have, you'll have this amount of time,

you'll have that amount of time because suddenly there was like skin in the game. He literally did like a biblical... Yeah, he did like a straight-up Solomon. He said, I'm ordering the dog to be sold and the proceeds divided. I didn't know people actually still did that. It works.

It worked. It worked. That's crazy. Yeah, you can't do it with kids because you can't say we're going to actually cut the baby in half. They're not chattel. But you are allowed,

if it's property, to say, all right, I'm ordering it to be sold and the proceeds divided and people just go, oh shit, wait, no. Wow. Yeah. Now, I know you're big on pre-ups. Love pre-nips, yeah. Now, when I got married, I was 23 years old, I think I had $8,000 to my name.

I didn't do a pre-nup. Should everyone do a pre-up? I think so. So even in my case where I'm like, yeah, I got $8,000. Actually, more so in that case. Really? Yeah, because you're at the beginning of something. And when you're building that something, I think it's important for everyone to know what their rights and

obligations are. Like what I like about prenups is it's the same reason why you want to have a will. You want to have a will because you don't trust the legislature of your state to decide what to do with your property. Right. You don't trust a bunch of politicians who've never met you and don't have your interests in mind to make the rules that govern what happens when you die. Right. You're in charge of that. You get to decide who gets your record collection.

You get to decide who deletes all the porn off your browser. Like you get to decide. It's somebody. Even me if you need to. This is attorney-client privilege. It's fine. No one's listening. Or actually,

they never mind. So, we'll edit that. Yeah, edit that out. Edit that out. No, but the truth is,

like, you, you are creating tranches, you're creating rules. You're saying if it's in my, like the simplest pre-up, the simplest pre-up,

the one that I do, I did four of them last week. Okay? And it's so simple, and it's so inexpensive. And all it is is, if it's in my name, I keep it.

Whether it's an asset or a liability. If it's in your name, you keep it, asset or liability. Joint names, we split it 50-50. It's it. It's it. That in and of itself, that just that pre-up is going to save you so much headache and heartache. And I think is actually going to make your marriage better because you're going to have to talk to your spouse.

When you get the million dollar contract when they go, this camp thing, we got it. We got to buy you out of this thing. We're going to give you $10 million for it. It's brilliant. Okay. Well, you get to decide then. Am I going to put it in my name or joint name or how much? And if you put all $10 million in your sole name, you're a real name, you're a real. wife has a good reason to go, hey, wait a minute, wait a minute, why is that? Why are you putting a loan to your name? Are you saying if we split up, I don't deserve any of that? You know, because otherwise, you're letting the legislature decide. And guess what? When it comes to things like a business, the legislature hasn't figured that out. It just is equitable distribution. So some judges say, yeah, she gets 50% of the value of the business because it was started during the marriage. And some courts say, nah, 25%, because she wasn't actively involved in the business. And some courts say,

10%. So you don't even know how to advise your client as a lawyer because it's up to the discretion of a judge. And a judge, I hate to be the one to break it to people. It's just a lawyer. And there's a joke that, you know, what do you call a lawyer with a 70 IQ, your honor? You know, because I'll break the spoiler here is that judges don't make what private practice lawyers make. So it's usually a lawyer who's not all that ambitious and would like a steady paycheck and would like a nine to five job, which being a private practice attorney is not a nine to five job most of the time. So you're not getting like the best and brightest lawyers are taking the job of judge, but they're the ones who have the discretion to decide things. Why? Why should a stranger

in a black robe you've never met and know nothing about and doesn't know anything about your family decide what percentage of your business interests your spouse should be entitled to in the event of a divorce? That's insane to me. Now my thought was that with pre-ups, specifically, many of them don't hold up in court. Then you can have a pre-up where you say, okay, this is what's going to be divided, yada, yada, yeah. Where are you getting that from? That's not true.

People, people, I get, I mean, I'm not criticizing you. People have this belief that pre-ups don't stand up in court. I'm in court. Defending pre-ups, they stand up. I'm in court challenging pre-ups, and we fail. Okay, under, under, what circumstances would they hold up and would they not hold up? Okay, assume they hold up, because they hold up in like 99-prin-year-old. percent of the time. What are the circumstances where they don't hold up when there was a drafting

deficiency because someone decided they were going to go on give me a prenup.net, you know, I'm making that up, but there are real ones, where they went to a lawyer who has $200 for a pre-up, you know, flat fee, and they just give you a one-size-fits-all that's not state-specific. So bad drafting, right? Bigger issue. There's a language. issue. Like people marry people who English isn't their first language. That's a great way to set aside a pre-up if somebody does not, if English is not their first language and they've been given a pre-up to sign and they don't understand English with sufficient knowledge to be able to sign off on it. There are ways to remedy all of those things if you just go to a lawyer. Like,

no divorce lawyer is making a living doing pre-ups. Like, like, I almost lose money doing pre-nups because it takes me like some time to do it. But like litigation, like I make more in a month in litigation than I do in a year in pre-ups. But I still do pre-ups because, A, it's intellectually a fun thing to do. B, it's not terribly time-consuming. And, you know, C, like, you're actually, like, helping people in a real way because you're counseling them before they get married about the things they should be looking at and thinking about. And I think that's, like, a nice thing and a fun thing to do, you know, because there is a human element to this job that I, there's a reason I'm not a corporate lawyer. I like people. I like relationships. I like the sort of messy clay of human

affections for each other. But pre-nups stand up. And so, I think that one of the reasons people say pre-ups don't stand up is, A, you don't hear about people saying, oh, yeah, my divorce was easy because we had a pre-up. People don't do that. And a lot of times people don't even say that they have a pre-up. Like, I represent a lot of celebrities, and I will tell you, they all talk about how they don't have a pre-up. And they do. A lot of them do. Like, I've watched clients of mine on TV interviewed saying, oh, we don't have a pre-up.

What is the social pressure to say you don't have a pre-up? Because I think it's people assume that if you have a pre-up, it means that you don't have faith in the marriage. A lot of people feel that way. A lot of people feel like, oh, they have a pre-up. They must assume they're going to get divorced, which is, to me, very odd. Look, all marriages end. They all end. They end in death or divorce, but they all end.

Like, your marriage will end. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you. It's going to end in death or divorce. I hope it ends in death. That's a weird thing to say to a human being. Like, I really hope it ends in death, man. I really hope. You know, I really hope you or she or both of you die.

Murder suicide. Yeah, so, well, I mean, which is the boldest of the suicides, you know, it really is. Yeah. I really do think that, you know, that there's a, it gets a bad name because people just think that, you know, like, oh, it must. So why bother? Why bother? It wouldn't work anyway. It's like, okay, but that's just not true.

It's not rooted in reality. Right. This is like if someone's brought in for questioning and they ask for an attorney, it's like, oh, you'd only ask for an attorney if you were guilty. It's like, no. Which, by the way, is a ploy cops love. Yeah. They love that.

I'm not getting an attorney. Should I have a lawyer? Do you think you need a lawyer? And you're like, you know, fuck you. Yeah, I need a lawyer. I'm not, I graduated high school. Let me tell you. Yeah.

If you ever get arrested, what's your name? Lawyer. Can I see your ID? Lawyer. That's it. Just keep saying lawyer over and over and over again. I promise it's the better thing to do. When they say, listen, if you just answer our questions, it's going to make things a lot

easier. They mean for them. They don't. I mean for you, it's going to be easier. You know, I have to tell people that all the time. They're like, oh, well, I told them this. I'm like, why would you tell them that? Like, well, they said it to make things easier.

I'm like, right, for them, not for you. You know, they're being like, oh, we won't have to do as much paperwork if you just confess. Yeah, if you go to prison today. Right, right. So I really think pre-nups, I'm telling you as someone in the train. Let me, here's the example that I'll give to you that should drive home how fucking binding preempts are, whether I like it or not. I had a client who 24 years ago.

signed a pre-up that was handed to her in the vestibule of the church when there were 150 people in the church waiting for them to walk down the aisle and she was three months pregnant. Seems coercive. She doesn't it? She signed it. Okay. No counsel.

It ended up 24 years to children later. It ended up depriving her of about in a $10 million marital estate. He was going to walk out with eight. and she was going to get two, as opposed to five and five in the absence of the pre-inup. It stood up in court. Wow. Against my best efforts.

I did everything I could to say to the judge. I got affidavits for people. You were advocating on her side. For her. And I'm a very good lawyer, and I lost. Because the law of the land is, it's a contract. It's a contract. You signed it.

You had a right to enter into a contract. You had a right not to get married. She had a right to say, we're going to walk down the aisle, and we're going to do the ceremony, and then we're not going to sign the paperwork that actually marries us. We're going to home and have a conversation about this shit you just tried to pull. Or she had a right to say, yeah, I'm not signing that.

So you can tell your mom who's waiting down there that we didn't get married because you handed me this in the vestibule. Yeah, on some bullshit the day of. Instead, sign it and handed it off. And then goes 24 years later, says, well, it was very unfair. Yeah, it was very unfair. 24 years ago. You should have fucking divorce. You should either not marry him or divorced him right.

And that's the part that I still kind of don't get. Like when I talk to clients and they go, I can't believe he's being so petty. And I'm like, well, what was he like when you were married? They're like petty as fuck. And I'm like, okay, what is you going to divorce the person you were married to? If they were a nasty, cheap, evil person when you were married to them, they're going to be nasty, evil and cheap when you divorce them. That's how it works.

If they were kind, empathetic, thoughtful, willing to concede the possibility of their own error during the marriage, you might end up with that same type of person in a divorce who's like, yeah, maybe it's partly my fault. You also might not divorce them. Right? But if you do. Like if you do, like when I got divorced myself,

I remember my ex-wife, again, who I'm friends with said to me at the time, she's like, well, my mom, who never liked me. My mom thinks you, you know, like I should definitely get a lawyer because we went to a mediator. And I was like, listen, I would tell anyone to get a lawyer. I was like,

but I just want to ask you and answer me honestly. Like, we've known each other since college. Have you ever seen me screw anybody out of money ever? Like a waiter? Anybody? She was like, no, never. I'm like, okay, have you ever seen me get screwed out of money? And she was like, like, four times a day.

I was like, okay, do you think I'm going to start with you? Like, you're going to be the first person. Like, mother of my kids, who I'm stuck with. I'm going to have grandkids with someday. I'm going to fuck with you. You're going to be the person I go at? Like, come on, really? But that is the old saying, right?

The person you divorce, not the person you married. Do you believe that? You know, I think you divorced the person you married. I think you divorce the person you married. I think that people are very often as advertised. I think we, as a species, you know, when you wear rose-colored glasses, all the red flags are just flags. Like, you just don't see it, you know? And I think you don't want to see it.

You don't want to look at this person honestly. But see, to me, and again, I'm older now. And I guess with that comes a certain way of looking at the world. Like, I don't want you to love the idea of me or what I could be as a fixer-upper. Like, I want the people who love me to be like, yeah, this is Jim. This is the good stuff about him and this is the kind of fucked up stuff about him. But, like, all added up, I like that guy, you know? Like, and I want that.

And I want love like that. I think that that's the best kind of love. Like, I hope that if I asked you to tell me 10 things about your wife you love, you could rattle off a list. And if I said 10 things your wife needs to work on, you know, you could come up with them. You could say, well, she's got a little bit of a temper. Like she gets frustrated easily or she whatever. Like, and those are not, you suck. Those are like, yeah, this is her blind spots.

This is the shit she needs to work on. And I hope she would have those lists for you. Because if she just said, oh, he's perfect in every way. Well, then you're not even seeing me clearly. Right. Like, you want a person who's going to go, yeah, like here's all the best of you. And here's like all the frailty and human. of you, but I'm going to hold on to this and try to feed it.

And, you know, like that to me, that's worthy of celebration. If a wedding was a celebration of that, two people's commitment to doing that with each other, I'm in. I'm in, sign me up. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because we got to talk about your amazing dick game. Yes, you. You right now, listen to my voice, my deep, soothing voice.

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Then all of a sudden, these slime ball attorneys get balls. These real fucking scumbag rats, right? They really are the worst. And they get involved, and then all of a sudden they're going into her ear, they're going into his ear, being like, well, didn't he?

he's always done this, yeah, yada. Is there a situation where two generally, like, likable people can be kind of manipulated by their legal counsel to become terrible people? Yes, here's what I'll tell you. It's rarely your legal counsel that does it. And I don't just say that because I'm a divorce lawyer. Like, we're not in a business where we need to, like, build up business. Like people always say to me like, ooh, how do you sleep at night?

And I'm like, what do you think I'm in fucking bars? Like walking up to guys going, you could do better than her. I'm just telling you, man, if you want to get out, here's my card. Like, it's not to work that way. It's like drug dealers, right? Like, Chris Rock has that whole thing where he's like, drug dealers don't sell drugs, drugs, drugs sell drugs. Like, there's never been a guy who's a crack dealer being like,

where am I going to get rid of all this crack? Like, you don't have to worry about advertising for crack. You have a phone number. Right, that's it. People that need you call you. So I'm the same thing. Like, I never had to go out and, like, hasten the demise of a marriage, you know? There's plenty to do when you're a busy divorce lawyer.

So what I will tell you is two things. One, it's not the lawyers most of the time that are in people's ear. It's their fawkin friends or their family members, often very well-intentioned, but working out their own shit. Can you speak to an example of that? Yeah, sure. I can give you a million examples of it because almost every case I have, there's a person in their life. Like it's a sister who went through a horrible, ugly divorce with a narcissist who's a bad person. and so now she's assumed your ex soon to be ex-husband is exactly like hers.

But she's working her shit out. Like that's her shit. You know, you don't have anybody who like his girlfriend slept with some other dude. And now he's like, dude, watch your wife, man, fucking chicks. You can't trust him, dude. And you're like, no, no, you couldn't. Who hurt you?

Have you met my wife? Who hurt you? Dude, I'm sorry that she did that to you. My wife's not her any more than I'm you. Like, what do you? You can't trust these hoes. Exactly right. It's like, oh, is this one hook.

By the way, and like these hoses ain't loyal, sung by a dude who beat the shit out of women. You know, like, yeah, maybe they shouldn't be loyal to you. You got a hell of a right hook. Like, this is not, you know, so I don't know that letting people sort of make these generalizations is a great idea. But people have people in their ear all the time. There is a reality, in full disclosure of lawyers, that there's an old saying that it is difficult to simultaneously prevent. and prepare for war. So, like, the things you do

to prepare for the possibility of war sometimes look like acts of aggression. Right. Right? Like, if we put a bunch of troops on a border of a country, it's like, whoa, they're going to invade. And it's like, no, no,

we're here in case you invade us. And they're like, yeah, sure, that's what everyone says when they're about to invade. Like, Hitler and his people were like, oh, no, we just are near Poland. We like Kilbossah. Don't worry.

We're just over here. We just want to make sure you don't invade Germany. And they're like, we would never. We're going to invent. No, we're just here. Don't mind us. I think it's the same thing. Like, I get it. That you feel like, you know, that, well, watch out. And lawyer is our job. I get paid to be paranoid. So if somebody says like, yeah, you know, on the bank statement,

I saw this other account that he transferred money to, I have to say to them, okay, look, there's a nefarious explanation. And there's also a totally benign explanation. So let's be prepared for the paranoid piece. But let's hope for the best. Like, let's, let's. let's assume the worst and hope for the best and try to be pragmatic and practical and a little bit paranoid and a good, like I would rather be pessimistic and pleasantly surprised, but ready if something went wrong, right? It's better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war. Right. You know, so it's better to have a lawyer and not need it than need a lawyer and not have it.

Sure. So I feel like that's a big piece of it. But also, like, remember, the majority of divorces are really just two people splitting. up and splitting their stuff up. It's really like they're not sexy. Like, like when I, I don't really go to cocktail parties, but like if I was at a cocktail party and people say, you know, what do you do for a living? And I saw, I'm a divorce lawyer. The first thing that all goes, oh, you must have some stories. And if I said, yeah, like, I did this divorce recently where there was like a man and a woman and they, you know, grew apart, you know, emotionally. And then they decided that, you know,

maybe that their paths should diverge in some fashion, but they love their children more than they We dislike each other. So we identified what assets they have and the best way to divide them from a tax perspective. And then they signed binding documents and we submitted him to the judge and, you know, they've moved on. They would be like, that's the worst story. That's the most boring story. That's the story most of the time. What people want is the, and then he took a chainsaw and he cut the bed in half and she was

sleeping with his brother. Like, and you gotta go like, oh shit, like talking about popcorn, you know. And I get it. Like I get it. Like there's not, you know, the news tells a story about the plane that crashed, not the like thousand that didn't. Right. I get it. But it gives people the false impression that that's what divorce is like.

And it's not. Most of the time, it's just not. Like I have celebrity clients or hedge fund people who come in and go, listen, figure out what I have and give her half. And it takes five lawyers six months to figure out where all their assets are, how to value them, and how to best divide them. So a lot of what we do is like not. sexy. Can you talk to me about like the relating to pre-ups, like the, I guess the male obligation to like take care of his wife and children in a divorce? Like I think about this a lot. Like, you know, if something were to happen with my wife and I, we don't have children, but one day we will,

you know, if, let's say I had a perfect pre-up that said I get to keep 100% of everything I've ever earned since the day we were married, she's spent all this time taking care of our kids, taking care of our home, helping me, supporting me. Sure. Like there is like this feminist economics idea where, you know, the role of the woman in a household is obviously contributing to, you know, the general GDP. Marriage is an economic partnership, sure. So in that regard, I'm like, let's say I got to keep 100%. She still should be entitled to some.

Like, I would not just leave her destitute and homeless. Yeah. And obviously, we know with men, when I get divorced, my pool of dating is bigger than it was when I got married. And from my wife, it's probably the inverse. Right, right, right. So there's a lot to unpack in what you just said. There's a lot there.

All of which is really, really. worth thinking about because you see that. And a lot of people see that. And that's great. Like, your pre-up doesn't have to be one size fits all. Like, that's a conversation worth having. Like, if you're going to get married saying, hey, you know what, if you make changes to your choices in life because of our desire to have a family, or because I, thankfully, am a good provider and why should both of us be stressed? So you're going to walk away from your career in reliance on the fact that I'm going to take care of you.

So in the event we break up, which I hope never happens, but in the event we break up, you know, you deserve something for that. Like some of my success is your success, so you should be entitled to some share of that. That's a perfectly reasonable, logical thing, right? Perfectly reasonable.

But should it be a formula that the state decides? Or should it be something that two of you have decided? You know, the concept you just described in the law is referred to as diminished lifetime earning capacity. So if a person made changes due to the marriage that diminish their lifetime earning capacity, that can be a basis for spousal maintenance. Okay. Spousal maintenance is also known as alimony. Okay. So that's child support totally different than alimony.

They're totally unrelated to each other. So there are legal solutions to every one of the problems you just. defined. So I gave up something in order to have children or those children are going to have needs. Okay, child support, child support related expenses cover that. I changed my career trajectory to support your efforts. Okay, spousal maintenance can address that. And again, pre-nups don't have to eliminate that. They can define it. So, like, I've had plenty of pre-naps I do where the person is safe. If we're married this many years, you get this amount of money. If you're married this many years, we get that amount of money. If we have children, you get this enhanced amount

of money. Like, you can come up with a rule set. And who is better to decide that than you and your wife when you're getting along? Like, why do we figure out how to fight when we're in a fight? Why do we figure out the rules of the fight in the middle of the fight? Like, you don't, you're married. Right. You don't know the rules that govern that relationship. I do. You don't. That's crazy. That's crazy. Like, I get it that, you know, I don't know how my iPhone works. I get it. Like, there's like elves in it or something as far as I know, you know. But like, you would think a legal relationship, like you know how your apartment lease works or your maintenance fee for your, like, you know how it works. You're like, okay, I get to live here and I have to pay this

amount of money. Yeah. Like the government can't just walk in and be like, oh, sorry on a 1021.6, you don't own this anymore. You'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Like, I would know that that rule. If there was a rule that you could just come take my shit. That is a good point. Before I sign any contract, I basically read through the whole contract. Yeah, and here's the thing. You read through the whole marriage contract. You did. And all it said was that you're agreeing to be legally married.

And two witnesses signed that with you, and that's it. Like, you buy a house. You get 15 pages worth of lead paint disclosures and property HUD-1 statements that say how much the loan is on the mortgage and what the interest rate is and what could potentially happen. You get married. You didn't get a fucking pamphlet. You didn't get any. You didn't get like one of those little cards that tells you.

You get nothing. You just sign the thing and that's it. And when you find out what your rights and obligations are for the very specific legal relationship you just signed up for, you find that out when it's all too late, when it's all falling apart. Like most people meet me and learn about what they did legally when they got married after they've been served with papers. Like, that's crazy. Do you think that's an intentional effort by the state or is that just sort of a weird? kind of cork that happens. No, I don't think it's the state's, I don't think the state is all that invested in people's

choice of getting married anymore. I think it really is just we don't want to talk about it. Like, it's scary. Like, why don't people want to talk about death? Because they feel like it's going to bring it into their life. Don't bring that up. Right. Well, exactly.

Come on. I told you not to bring it about. Fuck, divorce death. Like, you're a real part. No, what are you getting invited to parties? Yeah. No, I mean, but it's true. Like, you don't want to bring it up.

Like, I actually had like a neighbor that that she, don't brag. I had a number of them. I had a neighbor and she says to me, she said, well, we don't use the D word in our house. Divorce. I assume she meant divorce. Like, not dick, because that would be sad. But no, she was like, we don't use the D word in our house. And I was like, well, that, like, that doesn't like mean it's not a fucking thing.

Right. Just repressed. We won't talk about that. Okay, don't talk about it. Like, what do you think that's going to help? We don't talk about sex in our house. Well, it's like, you're going to have some kids pretty young. It's like the friends you and I probably both have.

They're like, I don't get a physical. Why? Because I don't want to fucking know that shit. Okay, well, that's why you need a physical. Like, I don't need my doctor telling me I should quit smoking. Oh, I'm not having to do touch my balls. Right, exactly. Yeah, no.

Just like, not until the tumors have really taken over. That'll be a great. And that'll be great for your balls, too. That'll be really healthy for your balls. You know, like, if you really cared about your balls to the point where you don't want people touching them, then you should have one person touch them a year. That way you won't have a whole bunch of people touching your balls when they have to chop one of them off. Yeah, yeah. But preventative is.

the way to go. And again, most people go to the dentist once they have a toothache. Right. But by the time you got a toothache, you're fucked. You know, if you went to the dentist before you had a toothache, you might never get a toothache. Now, this is one thing my wife and I did that I actually really, really like is that before we got married. I thought you

said that she touched your balls. I was like, all right, I mean, it's good, Mark. She touched my ball. Yeah, ball, just the one. Yeah, it's fine. We went to a marriage counselor before we got married. And we were like, 22, and we showed up. And the guy was like, so why are you guys here? And we're like, And you're telling me not to brag. Yeah.

You're like, we're so well. It was her idea. Yeah. All right. She was like, let's talk to a marriage counselor. And you went. Yeah.

Because I'm a cuck. Yeah. You're like, whatever you're like, whatever you say, sir. So we showed up and the guy was like, so what do you guys hear from? We're like,

is there anything we're missing? Like, this is going pretty well. We've known each other since we were like 17. Like, is there a thing? Like, this feels like there's a, like the end of the movie's going to come. There's going to be a huge turn where it's like,

you guys forgot. Yeah, what? more times after we were married like once every six months. And every time it was like an hour long meeting and they were like, what do you guys mad about? And the things we were mad about kind of dissipated because once we were confronted by like a professional, we're both like, yeah, this is kind of stupid. Or even having no articulate it. It's sort of like, it's not a big deal.

Yeah. Like the stuff we... You ever like try to like, you ever have like a disagreement with your spouse and then like you're trying to explain it to a friend to like have them agree with you? And as it's coming out of your mouth, you're like, yeah, I sound like a fucking idiot. It's like explaining a dream. Right. Exactly.

No, it was really scary. Yeah. And then you were there, but it wasn't. You, yeah, it's like a whole thing. Yeah, you try to explain an argument. And by the end of it, you're like, maybe I'm a dick. Yeah, I'm kind of an ass. As I'm saying this out loud, I realize I'm an asshole.

Yeah, I mean, look, I have to do. One of the lawyers I work with is very happily married and his wife's lovely. And she'll sometimes say to me, like, oh, my God, like, I could just, we were having this argument. All I could think was, oh, my God, I could read this in papers. Like, I could write this argument in a way that I would look like a very bad person. And it really keeps them in check, you know, because whoever discovered water, it wasn't a fish. You know, like if you're in the thing, you don't see it.

But listen, I think what you did is a very good thing. Like I, there's a lot of like right wing conservative media right now. Like, like all the Daily Wire crew and all that. They're very big on, we should get rid of no-fault divorce. We should get rid of no-fault divorce. What is no-fault divorce? No-fault divorce is like how easy it is to get a divorce. Like, you don't have to assert grounds for a divorce.

So, like, it used to be to get divorced, you had to show the person was cheating, incurably mentally ill. physically abusive, like you had to have grounds for the divorce. And then they figured out that like, yeah, this isn't healthy. Like that people should just, if one person in the marriage doesn't want to be in the marriage anymore, the marriage is fucking over. So just call it. Well, they've made the boogeyman now of no fault divorce.

Like so they're all you'll hear like Matt Walsh and Michael Knowles and that whole crew all constantly be like, well, no fault divorce, no fault divorce is so bad. A lot of people are like, we should make it harder to get out of marriages. I don't understand that. And that's not just like my profession talking. Like, like, that's like saying like, you know, there's so many sick people in the hospitals. We got to get rid of hospitals because it's clearly making people sick. And it's like, no, no, that's just where they end up.

There should be barriers to entry. There should be barriers to get it. It should be harder to get married. Right. You should have to sit down for a couple of hours individually with a therapist and then together with the therapist. Do you want to have children? You go, I do, but she doesn't. Right.

You can't get married, then. Right. How are you going to navigate that? Yeah. We don't know. Are one of you thinking the other one's going to give up on that thought? And what do you think is going to happen? But have that conversation before, you know, so that you can decide, like, okay, now we're doing this thing with that blind spot, no longer a blind spot.

That's a great solution. It is. I don't know why anybody's not. Make it harder to get married. Am I crazy? It should be harder to get married. I'm trying to think of, like, the downside of the negative implications for it. There isn't. We are, we are a country that loves autonomy and agency in meaningless ways.

Like, we just love the, like, if I say you can't touch that, you're like, why can't I touch that? I'm allowed to fucking touch that. Like, you want somebody to look in the drawer, tell them, don't look in that drawer. You know, like, it really is. Like, so, it's just a very human phenomenon, you know? I mean, look at Adam and Eve, man. Like, you use really, ladies, you have to eat everything. Like, honestly. Like, it was, but you know, anyone who's ever, and I say this with, great love in my heart for the fairer sex. But the truth is, like, you could, any man who's ever been in a relationship with a woman knows that Adam and Eve could have been a real story. Yeah.

Like, that it was like, like, Adam was just like, isn't this great? Look at this. It's so great. Like, there's so much stuff to eat and do. And she's like, yeah, no, it's great. Why aren't we not allowed to eat that apple? And it's like, why? There's all these other things we can eat.

No, no. And that's, oh, no, and those are so good. But, like, what, like, is somebody else? Is anyone allowed to eat that? Like is that like just like a VIP thing or is it that we're not? And like he's just like, oh my God, have you tried this? You know? And she's like, right, but what?

And then what does the devil do? The devil just comes down and gets next to her like the gay best friend. And he's like, yeah, what's the fucking deal with the apple? And she's like, right? What does they do with that apple? Like, why can't it? He's like, I don't know. Like, I think only very special people get to eat the apple.

And she's like, oh my God, I'm very special. What do you? And meanwhile, he's over there like, oh, look they have asparagus. You know, and he's like everyone. And then what does she do? She takes it and she goes, try this. And he's like, wait, isn't that the apple we're not supposed to? No, it's fine.

It's fine. You know, oh, all right. You know, and he is, like, this story makes sense. And I think it's the same thing. Like, I think that's how people don't get prenups. That's actually how people get married, I think. And, like, if you said to someone, there's a barrier to marriage now. You're not allowed to get married unless you take this test.

Why? Why? Who are you to tell me that I have to take a test before I get married? I know when I'm ready to get married. Okay. Like, everybody, see, one of the things like, Ram done, I think I quote Ram Dass twice in this interview. It's pretty good.

Ram Dass said he did hospice work for a period of time. And I did hospice work for a period of time. So I was really kind of respected that about him. And what he said is that to be in the presence of death is to be in the presence of truth. And I found that in my own work as a hospice volunteer in my 20s. To be in the presence of divorce is to be in the presence of truth. Like no one meant to get divorced. in our performative society

where everyone has got their significant other on the Instagram hashtag blast meanwhile they're in my office the week before and they're cheating on their partner and all this other but like performatively publicly oh we're great we're great oh my God I hate him

like it's sort of you know but until it falls off it's like every celebrity marriage they're like no we're great those are rumors those are rumors yeah we fucking hate each other we're getting divorced what what what you know so I really think that early in the relationship

no one wants to think about the possibility that the thing's ever going to end. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I need to tell you about one of my favorite new products in 2024. It's called Zippix. Yes, Zipix is a nicotine-infused toothpick. Now, if you know me, you know I like to indulge in a little bit of nicotine from time to time, okay? That's true. I don't like to smoke it.

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nicotine toothpicks. Now let's get back to the show. So how do you bring up that conversation? There's someone listening to this right now, driving their car. They're about to get married in like six months. They already proposed. Their wife is, or their fiancé is getting everything prepared.

They're picking out cakes and the whole deal. And he's like, oh, man, maybe I should bring it up to her. What is that conversation? I think you're most alive when you're in the presence. of death. I think that you're, when you get sick, when you have a bad cold, right, all you can think is, oh my God, if I could just breathe through my nose. If I could just breathe through my nose, I wouldn't want anything else in the world. And then you get over the cold, and for like a day or two, you go, oh, this is so great. But like you didn't wake up today and go, I don't have a

cold. I don't have a cold. I don't have a toothache. I don't have a backache. Like, it's a good day. You don't do that because we're just, it's not our nature. So when you're in love and you're just like this person, you know, you're just, look, you know, I've said it before, like my favorite poem, there's a poem by Joseph Brodsky called a song and he wrote it when his wife died. And the refrain of the poem is, I wish you were here, dear, I wish you were here. And one of the lines is, I wish you were here, dear, I wish you were here. I wish I knew no astronomy when the stars appear. And I think that I always love that line Because I think that once you know what the stars are

They're not quite as magical anymore They're not quite as beautiful anymore Because you know the reality of them The science of them, the math of them But I don't think Even though I know the stars are a ball of gas And that the light is reaching us from it Like it's still beautiful

Like it's still beautiful Like and love like maybe it's an economy Maybe it's a delusion brought on by inadequate lighting Maybe it's a sign of our human frailty and our desperate desire to just hold on to someone else and feel safe in a world that's not safe and in which we have very little control, right? Maybe it is a divine, I don't know, I don't know. Like we'll never know maybe. Like maybe when we die, we'll know. I don't know.

But whatever it is, I think we all agree. It's really important. It feels really good. You know, like there's parts of it that feel really good. Nothing can make us feel so alive and nothing can make us feel so fucking awful as love, as romantic love, right? So I'm a fan of truth. I'm a fan of looking at things honestly. And so I think for the person who's right now like, yeah, I'm in love.

I'm thinking about proposing or I'm thinking about getting married. Like, cool. Deal in reality with yourself. First have a conversation with yourself about why. Why do I want to get married? What do I think marriage will bring? Do I think it will create a frozen in time us that nothing can take away? Because that's a delusion.

It's an illusion. But there's value in thinking about that. Because if what you're saying when you say, I got married because I love this woman. I love how I feel about her right now and how she seems to feel about me. Okay, cool. Make that your baseline. Like honor that, acknowledge it. Say, yeah, babe, this is the baseline.

Like how much sex we're having right now? or how much we're enjoying it right now, that should be our baseline. And if we start to slip off of that, we should love each other enough to say, hey, this thing's so important to me that we're slipping off the baseline and I don't want to.

And I don't say that to you because you're doing something wrong. I say it to you because I love this baseline. I want to stay here. So I don't want to lose it. You satisfy me. I don't want to ever look at another woman. I want you to satisfy me.

So when I say to you, hey, babe, we're not, you know, I used to get a lot more blow jobs. I'm not getting any anymore, you know. like, okay, like that, that's not me saying, you know, baby, you're really not meeting my needs and you. What you're saying is like, hey, I want you. I want to be happy with just you. And I've been happy with just you.

And if something's changed, that now we have to change the dynamic. Okay, let's talk about that. But let's not just let it happen by default, right? So I think that person who's thinking about getting married, first have a conversation with yourself about what, why, what do I want? And is it realistic? Then I have a conversation with your partner about the fact. that, hey, we're signing on for this thing that fails more than 50% of the time. So the odds are against us. So what's going to make it different for you and I? Like, what can we do to make sure?

We're going to disagree about something at some point. So let's talk about that now while we're getting along. Are you the kind of person that can't go to bed angry and you need to get this shit sorted out for you can sleep? Or are you the kind of person that needs like a minute, you know, before you have this discussion. You need to formulate your thoughts. Because if we're different in our argument style, the time to learn that is not when we're in a The time to learn that is while we're getting along, right? Like, how important is sex to you? If it's really important to you, you should know that.

If you're married to a dude who's like, yeah, whatever, man, like, bang me once a week and I'm good. Or if you're married to, like, a dirty dude who's like, yeah, man, like, I need a lot of sex. I need, like, variety and I need, okay, cool, then let's talk about that. Because let's be realistically married. Like, a lot of women will have a conversation about, like, you know, only him anything. You're right. You don't owe your husband anything, and he doesn't owe you anything.

Now what? Why are you married to each other if you don't feel like you owe anything to each other? Like, no, you're, don't look at it like owing. Look at it like we signed up for this thing and we want it to be good and sustain us both. We both want to be happy with the other. We don't, you know, so I think that's a conversation worth having. And again, we're most acutely aware of the beauty of life when we were in the presence of death. I think when we almost lose our partner relationship-wise, like that's when we realize the value of them.

Like when your wife goes away for a week, you feel the absence of her, I'd imagine. The first three days are amazing. Amazing, right? Oh my God, so good. So good. Which, by the way, there's something to learn there, which is, hey, this part of me that's, like,

loving the fact that I can just do whatever the hell I want. Like, I can leverage that when she's here. Yeah. Like, and by the way, that's the guy she fell in love with. Like the guy she fell in love with was like a dude who liked to do his own thing. Like so, you know, that's okay. But day four and five, it's a little sad. Day four and five, you start to be like, oh man, like I kind of like, you know, kind of like, and like you get a whiff of her stuff.

You know, like I'm in a relationship and I walk past her closet. Yeah. And I go, like, oh, I like, oh, I like, oh, I like that. Smell of her. And I'm eating over the sink alone. Yeah. And you're kind of like, oh, yeah, there was a reason I stopped being this guy. Yeah.

You know, and that's really nice. And when she comes home. The best. It's cool. It feels good because that's love, right? Because that feels good, you know? And so to me, have that conversation while you're considering getting married.

Like, and talk about, like, I don't think it's a coincidence that you and your wife had some premarital counseling, had some check-ins early in the relationship, early in the marriage. I bet, and I don't know it, but I bet you guys have some habits

that help keep it on track. I'm sure that you check in in some way. I'm sure that you have some way of like paying attention. Like just pay attention. Most of the time that's all that's necessary is to pay attention. Like just to notice like that, oh, she's silly. Because we all, listen, we're all in relationships where it's like, hey, are you okay? Yeah, I'm fine.

Okay, you're not. Yeah. You're not. Maybe you don't, you want to say you're okay and you're not ready to talk about it. That's okay. Or maybe you don't realize how you seem right now. You seem off. You know, so, like, that's one of the best things I think about being in relationships, any kind of relationship, love, a friendship, a good friendship.

It's like someone sees you. They see your blind spots. Like, and they'll say to you, like, you sure you're all right, man? I know you're saying you're all right, but you seem a little off today, you okay? You can't really hide it from me because I know you too well. Because I know you too well. Isn't that great? Are you in a constructive phase where we can talk about?

Are you kind of in like a wallowing phase where you kind of just want to feel it for a while? And it's okay, like the beauty of being able to say, like, hey, look, if you're just kind of feeling off today, that's okay. there's room for that in this relationship. But if you need me to do something, like I just, I want you to be happy. That's not pressure. That's not like I'm pressure. Snap out of it.

That's not what this says. What this is is if there's something I can, if there's something I'm doing that's making you feel bad, I want to know because I don't want to make you feel bad. And if there's something I could do that might make you feel better, I would like to do that.

Do women have an incentive to bring up the prenups? Well, I mean, listen, things are not, we're not in 1950 anymore. Like, I wrote an article for, I think it was glamour or Vogue magazine called The Last Remaining Feminist Taboo. and it was about my female clients that have to pay alimony

because they work for Google or they were their coders or their doctors or lawyers, oh yeah, Kelly Clarkson, Adele. There's a number of, you know, very successful women that have had to pay a lot of alimony because they married a dude who's a musician or who was an artist or who was like, you know, not as a teacher. You know, I mean, Jeff Bezos' ex-wife, you know,

married a teacher. Lasted like three years. So there are people that have to pay. It is still the majority of the breadwinner is men and the majority of people paying alimony as a result are men. But, you know, is that a gender-based thing? No, it's just how our relationships work. That's a good caveat.

So I guess the person that is not making the majority of the money in the relationship, do they have an incentive to say, hey, baby, maybe we should look at a... Well, you know, what I said to you earlier is true, which is, I think actually the best time to have a pre-up is when neither of you has anything. And that way, everything you build, you're building with that in, like, with this structure in mind and with the rule set in mind. But even people that have a lot when they get married and the person with the assets or the

person without the assets, I think there is an incentive for both of those people to have a pre-up. I mean, yes, if you're the non-moneyed spouse, having a pre-nup may be adverse to your financial interests. But I think it's also positive in terms of knowing that this person knows the reason you're with them is not a financial reason. And also that that you know this person's not staying with you because they're afraid they're going to have to give up half their shit. You know, like I don't want someone to be married to me because they're afraid of divorcing me. I don't want someone to stay married to me because it's lucrative to be married to me.

I want you to be married to me because I bring value to your life and you bring value to mine. That makes sense. Is it possible like you are? are obviously a good attorney. So when you're creating a prenuptial agreement, you're creating the most fair and equitable situation between these two parties. Now, not all attorneys are so good. Yeah, I'm not doing that. I'm supposed to do what's best for my client. But I think you're correct that most of the time I approach that situation with an eye towards both people's benefit. Because if you want to marry this person, I assume that you also want their benefit to be similar to yours. But I have clients

that are like, oh yeah, I want you to give her as little as humanly possible. And my mandate then is to protect that client's interest because only my client, I'm not an attorney for the situation. I'm an attorney for a person. So, yeah, I mean, but I will advise. Like, I have women who come in. I review

prenups all the time where I didn't write it. The person got handed a pre-nup by the person they were engaged to. And they come into my office and they go, read this pre-num. And I'll sit there and I'll go, yeah, you're absolutely screwed if you guys get divorced. Like, if you sign this pre-nup, You're absolutely screwed if you get divorced. He's got you waving alimony,

dividing all assets. He keeps everything that he earned unless it's in joint names, and he has no obligation to put anything in joint name. Seems unfair to me. Totally unfair. It will be unfair in its practice, not in its formation. Right. But that's when you have to have the difficult conversation of,

yeah, then I'm not going to marry you. And women, in my experience, and again, I don't like to gender this stuff too much. We live in fraught times. But, you know, the perk of my job is that you don't get canceled no matter what. Because I, you know, people are just like, I could be like, yeah, I'm, you know, I like to, you know, like kill babies and eat them. And people would be like, great, can you get me custody? That's all I have to pay as much child support.

That's all I need you to do. That's all I need you to do. Yeah, just somebody else's baby is fine. As long as I don't know the baby. Babies are, they're only here to replace this. It's fine. But I really do often have, I have the same conversation. quite a lot.

I have a guy who comes in and says, I don't want to give her anything in the event that we do. Like we're doing a pre-up. I don't want to have to give her anything if we divorce. And I'm like, okay. Like I can draft a pre-up

that she waives any in all assets unless they're in joint names and that she waves alimony. And it's like, yeah, but she's not going to like that. So like, can you do it in like a way that she's going to be cool with it? I'm like, yeah, no. No, I can't.

Like, I'm not a fucking magician. I'm going to punk your wife? Yeah. No, no, but more than that you want. want me to like, you know, be like, these are not the droids you're looking for. This is not the pre-knap you were looking for. And she's just going, okay. Like, I'm like, dude, if I knew how to just wave a wand and make a woman not want anything

from you, like, yeah, I would do that for me and for you and for every dude I know. It doesn't exist. I also have women who come in and go, look, I don't want him to think that, like, I'm a gold digger and I want anything from him. But in the event we divorce, like, I want half. And I also want, like, a lot of alimony. And I'm like, okay, well, then you're going to have to sort of defend. that position in advance.

To him. Well, you're the one going to marry the guy. So you, I can say it's me, not you, but he knows I work for you. Like, it's not like you're going to be able to go in and be like, babe, I want to wave Alamo.

But this fucking sexton, he won't let me do it. He will not. He was like, because I'm a lawyer. You could fire me. They know that. They know that you can fire me, and it's not like I'm the only divorce. Like, it's not like if I quit being a divorce lawyer, the people in the city of New York would be like, fuck, I guess we got to stay married. Like, it wouldn't happen, you know?

Like, morticians, you know, quits his job. It's like, people are going to stop dying. Like, it's just how it is. So, like, I will eventually stop practicing matrimonial law, and people will still get divorced, you know. So the game will drop me. So I think you have to be bold enough to be able to say to this person who you're about to marry, hey, I think you, you know, we might owe each other some things. And by the way, you said it earlier.

Like, I think there is within all of us a certain sense. of justice. Like, I think justice is in our hearts without getting too misty-eyed about it. Like, I think justice is in our hearts. Like, all the law is is a symbol of our desire to be just. Yeah. I mean, you've seen these economics games where it's like, okay, we're going to split this thing and I can take however much I want, but you're allowed to reject it. Right. And if I, if we have $10 and I take $9, you're going to reject it every single time. Because the fairness is built in, it's innate to us. I do think to a point. But the answer to that is more information and sharing of information. In the example, I used to teach a negotiation course at NYU.

And what I used to always tell students to start the class is I would say, okay, we have a lemon. And you want the lemon and I want the lemon. What's the best way to divide the lemon? Every hand goes up and they go cut the lemon in half. Or if they really want to be nuanced, they go, one of us cuts the lemon and the other one gets to pick which piece they want, because that'll guarantee you cut it equally if you don't know if the other person gets to pick which ones. You're going to cut it exactly 50-50. And they all are very self-congratulatory. Like, oh yeah, that was the obvious answer. And I go, great. I want to make lemonade and you want lemon zest for baking. You could have had 100 percent and I could have had 100 percent. But because we didn't bother asking the

fucking question, we each got half of what we needed for no reason. Because you squeezed the juice and threw out the rhyme that I wanted. And I used the rind and threw out the juice that you wanted. But we didn't bother asking the question of like, why do you want the lemon? It's not that hard to ask that question. So like it's okay. Like our sense of justice, even if you're, you know, a successful, wealthy person and you're marrying someone with no money.

And they go, look, I'm not marrying you for your money. But if we split up, like, I can't get put out on the street with nothing. Like, I need to have enough for a security deposit for a place. And, like, you'll have bought all the furniture. So under the pre-up, you would keep all of it. So, like, I need money for those things. Like, that shit costs money, you know. I think most people would go, that's fair.

Or if they go, listen, I'm going to end up quitting my job because you don't want me to be as stressed and you make 10 times what I make. So I'd like to, like, meet you, you know, at the door with a sniffter of Randy, you know. And I'd love to be able to, like, just chill at home all day. And, you know, like, then you meet me and we, like, I'm chill. and I went to yoga class, or I can go to a shitty nine to five job. Like, if I wasn't marrying you and I'm on my own, I'm in this thing on my own, and it's every man for himself, then I'm going to conduct my life differently.

But if you're saying to me, I'm going to take care of you, I'm going to rely on that promise. In the law, we call it detrimental reliance. I'm going to rely on this promise, potentially to my detriment. So if we have that conversation, when we're about to get married, we like each other more than the other eight billion people in the world. You couldn't have that conversation and say, like, yeah, I'm afraid. If we broke up, I'm afraid that I'd walk out with nothing.

And if you're a man, you're going to say, like, that's fair. You're right. That's a thing to be worried about. So how do I solve that problem? Because if your answer is I'm going to give you one half of everything I have, I'm not marrying you. Right. But if your answer is, I need a reasonable amount of money that should be tied to how long we've been together. Or it should be tied to what I've given up.

Or it should be tied to what. If the assets I get in our yours, mine and ours financial structure are less than this amount, you got to make up the difference. Sign me up. I'm in. That's fair. Can you tell me about any cases where the pre-nup created a perverse incentive in the relationship? I can think of things that have happened where it's like, oh, where there's a lifestyle clause where the woman will get paid for a lifestyle. So she spends more money, yada, yada. Yeah, I mean, I've seen pre-like, look, a pre-nup, you know, a pre-up's just a tool, right? And a tool, you know, a gun in the hands of a of a good person can be used to protect somebody and a gun in the hands of a villain can cause chaos, you know, and pain.

Because now I'm thinking of the guy that's like, okay, I should get a pre-up. This is how I talked to my wife about the pre-up. But then he looks at the pre-up from his bad attorney and is like, wait a second. The way this is structured, she's going to spend way more money to get a better lifestyle.

So I've seen, yeah, I've seen ones that base what the person's entitled to on the last tax return that was filed. So like someone loses their job and the person goes, okay, I got to divorce this person now. so that they're like I had an example of these people at a pre-up. The spousal support was based on a percentage of the earnings

and the last tax return filed in the year before the filing for divorce, which made sense because you're tying it to an economic reality. Problem was the guy was an air traffic controller. So we had a high school education. He made $300,000-something thousand dollars a year. He lost that job. The next job he's qualified for is going to make like $50,000 a year. So she, when he lost his job, because he had an anxiety,

issue that came up, they had to put him on benzos, and you can't be an air traffic controller if you're on benzos. So while this guy's down, she files for divorce, locks in a spousal support obligation that literally is more than what he's even going to make, because it's based on last year's tax return. And there's nothing I could do for the guy because it was agreed upon in the pre-nup. Now, in the absence of a pre-up, we would have been actually able to argue that, well, it's based on its earning capacity, and his earning capacity was affected through no fault

of his own by what occurred when he came to losing his job. But so I've seen like pre-ups can be, they can be a gun in the hands of a villain, you know. Like I've seen pre-nups weaponized against somebody. I mean, I've done the one I talk about a lot because it's just the most. Whenever somebody says to me like, well, pre-ups aren't binding. I go, okay, here's how binding pre-nups are. I give the example I gave you. There's another one that I'm not even kidding I was involved in where for every 10 pounds the wife gained,

she lost $10,000 a month in Alamo. No way. Yeah. That's real. Yeah, it was real and it stood up in court. It was challenged in court and it stood up in court. And the court actually said in its decision, this is a disgusting clause that I can't imagine why you married this person who asked for this clause, but it's a binding clause. You're two adults and you have the right to agree to this and you agreed to it. And you were both represented by counsel at the time you did it. Now, what's funny about that is as a divorce lawyer, when that clause was presented to me, I remember, and this is what law school does to your brain, I didn't actually think about it from a human place of like, oh, that's,

cold shit, you know. I actually thought, well, wait a minute, there's so many problems with this as a clause because, like, it actually would create, because you have to have establish a baseline. So, like, at the time you marry, what did she weigh? You have to establish a baseline. So, like, if I'm her, I'd have fucking rocks in my pockets when I do the weigh in, because I'd want to have the baseline be as high as possible. And then when we're getting divorced, I'd be like a wrestler or a fighter. I'd be in the sauna, sweating it out. You know, I'd really, like, try to, like, be as light as possible. I lost 40 pounds. Right. You'd try to like strip weight. Like you'd be like a UFC fighter. You'd be trying to strip weight, you know, so that you could say like, yeah, look, I stayed

the baseline weight. So I think about it that way, because that's how lawyers are, that's how fucked up we are. But that, like, people create preempts that have clauses that they think are going to solve certain, like I've had, I've had a blow up in people's face that they have a clause that says that if we're living in an apartment that you owned prior to the marriage, that I'll move out. Now that makes sense, right? Like if your parents bought you a house, you individually, when you were single,

bought you a house. And then my wife moves in. And your wife moves in. And now you're getting divorced. It's my house. It's fair to say that was your house before and she should have to move out. Okay, but you've got kids now.

And the kids live in that house. And now she's got to move out because the prenupt said that this is my sole and separate property and you have to vacate within 30 days of an operative event, meaning the filing of a divorce action or the other one giving each other

written notice. Okay. So now you've got to move. Now you're getting de facto custody of the kids. Because the kids live in that house. They go to the school in that school system. Like, so there are a second order of, and this is what lawyers are for. Like our job is to see those bizarre contingencies. And that's why when people go, like, well, what about when lawyers come in and then they like amp everybody up? And it's like, well, we're not like amping you up to amp you up to like line our pockets. Like, believe me, I haven't been bored since like Bill Clinton was in office. Like I'm, I work all the damn time. But, and it's not like I'm ever sitting around going like, I got to figure out a way to get people to not get along. Like,

people do find themselves about not, they don't need my help not getting along. But I do get paid to be paranoid. And so I have to say to someone like, okay, but what if this? But just jumping ahead, what if that? And then sometimes they'll go like, well, that's a pretty remote contingency. I'm like, okay, but it's still a contingency. So at a minimum, at least know, right? At least know that it's a possibility so that if things happen. And by the way, a pre-up, just to tie it back to pre-nups, a pre-nups doesn't have to be one size fits all and that's that. I think that's an important distinction. Like when somebody says to me, when should I do my estate planning? I always tell them early and often. Like revisit your will every couple of years and change it. Same thing with pre-nups.

Do your pre-nup for you. But then if things change in your marriage, okay, do an addendum to the pre-up. I have people who come back every couple of years and they update their pre-num. Same thing. what's the harm in you and your wife going to counseling right now and having a conversation about how are we doing? None. None whatsoever. If the answer is, I think she's doing great. Yeah, I think he's doing great. You know what? Great. Go have dinner now. Isn't that lovely? Exactly right. Exactly right. So why not have it? Isn't it better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it? Because there's resentment building up or there's secrets between the two of you. So you could create a customized pre-nup when you're 20 years old and you got married and then when you're 30 you're like,

hey, I actually think the pre-up is causing us to fight in a way. And she doesn't want to quit her job because she's afraid that she's not going to have anything. So she's going to keep on working. And now our kids are in daycare, yada-a-y-da-y. And when she says, you know, I'm thinking about quitting the job, but I'm afraid to do it because the way we structured things in the pre-up and go, you know, that makes sense, babe. Why don't we do an addendum to the pre-nip that says, hey, we're now modifying this based on X, Y, and Z? Great. That's how you make decisions in a marriage.

You're married? Do you just unilaterally go, hey, babe, babe, I bought a new car. Like, no, not if you're not an asshole. You go, you know, I'm thinking about getting a new car. And then she goes, oh, that would be cool. But, you know, what about this, this and this? And then you go, no, I thought of that. And here's what we'd do.

Where you go, oh, shit, yeah, I hadn't thought of that, you know. And, like, you check each other's blind spots. You reality test ideas together. You straw man and steel man concepts together. Like, that's great. That's a partnership. So why not do that with these fundamental things? Instead, again, instead of going, I'm sure the legislature will figure that out for us.

In the event, it goes wrong. I'm sure that the legislature the lawyers and the guy in the black world, they'll figure that shit out for us. Way better than we ever could. Really? Really? What evidence do you have to support the theory that I'm sure the government's got that figured?

Did COVID teach you nothing? That like, you know, like, I'm sure someone is going to figure out how to do this. I'm sure there's grown up somewhere. And the answer is like, no. People go like, I don't know. Well, I don't know. I thought you knew. Okay, but guys, like, well, that's not out where there's no Superman.

No one's coming to save us. Like, it's us. It's us. This is, we got to figure it out ourselves. And when it comes to something like a pandemic, I get it. It's trickier. There's a lot of variables. But a marriage, like the two of you, two of you know your marriage best.

And by the way, neither are you knows 100% of your marriage. Like I always tell people, like, the only people, the only people, because people always say to me, they're like, I can't believe, did you hear this person's getting divorced? Can you believe that? I'm like, of course I can believe that. Like, the only two people who know what's going on in a marriage are the two people in it. And they only know a certain amount, even. Like the old joke of, you know, you know what you call a woman who knows where a husband is all the time?

A widow. Yeah. You know, like, it's really like we're, we are all complex creatures. We all have a whole internal life that we're almost a mystery to ourselves to some degree, right? So I say in my book that like the all marriage problems really stem from two problems. We don't know what we want. And we don't know how to express it once we know what we want. And I think almost everything comes down to like, do you know.

know yourself, do you know what you want, do you know what you expect of others? And then do you know how to express that? And if you know how to express that, if you know what you want and you know how to express it, you're like 10 steps ahead of most people. Hmm, that's, that's really interesting. Like those two things specifically. Like if someone were to come to you and say, hey, how do I never get divorced? Would you know what you want and know how to express what you want? Could you give an example of someone not knowing what they want? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I could give you a lot of examples of it. Because I think a lot of times we're shooting the wrong. So I'll give you a practical professional example.

Guys come in all the time and they're getting divorced and they say to me I want 50-50 with the kids. I want 50% of the time with the kids. I want 50% of the time. I want I want 50-50. Okay. You don't. That's not what you want.

I know what you mean, but that's not what you want. You're shooting the wrong target because there's not a fucking person in the world that goes, I've only spent 48% of the time with a bill, your glove, baseball glove. We got a two percent. We got to make up. Let's go. No one looks at it that one. What you're saying is, I don't want to be what my dad was.

I don't want to be a weekend dad. I don't want to see my kid once a week for dinner and every other weekend. I don't want to be a playmate to my kids. I want to do the heavy lifting of parenting. I want to also make them eat their broccoli and brush their teeth and get them off to school. And I want to help them with their homework. I don't just want to be a guy who has them on the weekends every other weekend. I want to be involved.

that's what you're saying. That's what you're saying. So when I say you don't know what you want, you don't know how to say it, what I mean is that like when you say, you know, you don't appreciate me to your spouse, what do you mean? What do you mean?

Like, what you want me to give you a thank you card? No, what you're saying is, I don't feel like I'm a priority to you. You're distracted by your phone half the time. Like say what you mean. Tell me what you need. I might want to give it to you. If I just knew, right?

I can't hear what you don't say. I know you wish I could. If we're in a relationship, like I wish I knew without you saying it, what it is you need for me. But I don't. I can't read your mind and you can't read mine. So let's figure out a way to express to each other what we need. And by the way, first you have to figure out what you need, right? Because sometimes you're like, dude, I'm hungry.

No, you're just thirsty. You're just thirsty. You really are. You just thirsty. Oh, you're bored. Dude, I'm so fucking mad. No, you're tired. You're tired, man, you're just tired.

It's okay. You know, like, oh, dude, I fucking hate her. No, you're sad. You're sad. You're sad. Like, whenever I have, like, a guy friend who's like, fuck that bitch, I hate her. I'm like, dude, you're sad. It's okay.

You're sad. Just say you're sad. Go cry. I'm telling you, you're going to feel better, man. You're going to feel better. It's way stronger to go, I'm frustrated. I'm embarrassed. I feel silly.

Like, say that. I'm hurt and I'm projecting right now. Right. Like, all this shit of like all these, like, it's such a man thing, too. because, like, we're of different generations, but, like, in my generation, you either got to be, like, Clint Eastwood or Richard Simmons. Those were your two fucking choices. And there was no nuance.

There was no emotional vocabulary. They called you metrosexual. 100%. You, right, because why? Because you washed your face, you know? Or, like, you cried once. And you were, like, every time I got called a fucking. You know, I still, to this day, there will be someone on the YouTube of this.

In the comments ago, this guy seems gay. And it will be me. Okay, right. It's you, I'll let it go. If it's you or like, you know, KFC or somebody I know, they can do it. But I really think at the end of the day, like, and it's true. Like my softwood underbelly interview had like 5 million views and like 30,000 comments. And I didn't read all of them because that'd be like a book.

But the few that there were so many that were like, I think this guy's gay. And it's like, because I wasn't like because of the way I talk. Like, really? Like, are we really still there? Is that empathetic to women? Yeah, like, are we really there, though? Because I wasn't just like grunting monosolobically. Like, I mean, I get it.

But like, do I have to be David Goggins to be masculine? Because it seems exhausting. Yeah. You know, I admire him. And I'm glad there's dudes out there like that because they, let me tell you, they keep the bad men from the door. But I got to tell you, like, man, is that really the resume? Like, we got to not have any emotions.

So I really think that there are a million examples you could think of or I could think about when we're shooting the wrong target. Like I'm tired and I think I'm mad. Yeah. Or I'm mad, but I'm mad at myself. Right. You're not doing the work to get inside your own head and really think deeply about what am I feeling and why.

Right. And then once you identify what I am feeling. Right. Before I make decisions. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you do it after you make decisions. Right. You do it after you make decisions.

And you look back and you go, you know, I was actually just fucking mad at myself or I was just in a bad mood. Well, can you do that before you do this dumb shit? And before you like fuck up everyone else's it? But that's the goal. And that's why, to bring it back to the start, that's why I like pre-ups. Because I think a pre-up, even if you don't get one, just talking about getting one has value. Because it's a conversation about what do we owe each other.

And why are we doing this? Like, why are we doing it? We don't have to do it, guys. There was a time we had to get married. There was a time you had to have kids. There was a time where women were told you get to be a mom or a teacher or a teacher. nurse. Those are your three options. Or a spinster cat lady. Those are your four options. That's it. That's it. That's it. You don't get to be a lesbian. You don't get to do anything. You don't get to be a

lady doctor. That's silly. You don't get to be a lady lawyer. There's no such thing. You don't get to do that. Right. And then we're told you get to be, you know, lawyer or a doctor or you get to be a construction worker. Right. Like these are, but you don't be a stay at home dad. You can't be a stay at home dad. You can't be a nurse. Yeah. You can't be a teacher. You can't be an artist. You can't be any of those things. Okay. So what was the purpose of feminism other than to say you can be whatever you want to be. You can be anything. And men can

too. They can be whatever they want to be. Like we all have lots of menu choices. And maybe, maybe statistically, men tend to like this stuff more and women tend to like this stuff more. Let it be. Right? Let it be. That's okay. Like we have nuance and difference and that's great

and know that there's no prohibition. Like it's not like women aren't allowed to be plumbers. But if I said, do you know, underrepresented in the plumbing world, women are. I can't believe you only hired male plumbers your whole life. It's like, dude, I don't know that there are any women plumbers. And if there are, they're probably very in demand. Because like, if people are trying to find a woman, like a lady plumber, that's not a big thing. I don't know a lot of male plumbers. I don't know a lot of women plumbers. I'm sorry women plumbers, if there's a bunch of you out there, but I'm not

aware of you. You know, so I don't think that that's the end of the world, you know? So I really think that if we just were honest with ourselves and each other about what we expect from each other, what we owe each other from the beginning up front, we would end up happy. Now there's a lot of things that the pre-up doesn't cover, right? A pre-up covers obviously financial estate, a lot of these types of things. It's not going to talk about infidelity. It's not going to talk about, I guess maybe there's caveats, but like, you know, argument. You can put what's called an

infidelity clause in a pre-up. I would discourage people from doing it. Why? So a couple reasons. One is the classic reality of law is that it doesn't matter what I know. It matters what I can prove. So you have to be able to prove infidelity. And there's a difference between suspecting infidelity, knowing it's going on, and being able to prove it, right? Like proving something is different. So the way under the law traditionally you prove infidelity was you had to prove what was called inclination and opportunity. So you had to provide extrinsic evidence that this person was inclined to want to sleep with this person. And then you also had to prove that they had the opportunity to sleep with this person,

meaning that they were alone with them in a location where you could theoretically have sex, which, by the way, is almost anywhere, you know. So, at least if you're adventurous. So I think at the core, there's a problem of proof. Okay. Then beyond that, how do we define infidelity? Like infidelity, I mean, of course there's an obvious explanation. Like, genital contact is obviously infidelity.

But, you know, is that really how you would define infidelity? Like, if your spouse is texting somebody 15 times a day and they're telling each other every intimacy or they're having like a... And they're going on dates and having dinners. Right. Like, you might, you know, that's infidelity. But if you're saying if their genitals don't touch, it's okay. Like, I don't know that that's real. And what I will say is there's a gender difference in there, too. Right.

Like I've said before most of the time. if men and women, in my experience, their approach to infidelity is different. A man asks, did you fuck him? And a woman asks, do you love her? Yeah. And that tells you a lot about people. That's what they're worried about.

I do think it has roots in, like, human physiology and biology. Of course. I think everything has it. Like, to suggest that we're not rooted, we're not creatures of biology. But I do understand, like, Richard Lewinton's concept that biology is ideology, that, like, facts all come with points of view.

How we interpret data is skewed by, our perception of things, right? So it has some biases built into it, but to suggest that like oxytocin and testosterone, that none of this has anything to do with anything is fucking ridiculous. You're denying reality. But as a dude, I'm like, I want to make sure

that kid is mine, so did you fuck him? And as the girl, she's like, I want to make sure you're not going to leave me alone with this kid. Do you love her? But I think we all, if we're being honest, right? Our mandate in some ways is to transcend our biology, I think, as humans.

I mean, I don't, like, I think, You know, a lot of what Freud said was true and of no practical application whatsoever. But, like, some of what Freud said is like, yeah, you want to fuck everything that walks and kill everyone that doesn't do what you want them to do. But we don't get to do that. So civilization and it's discontents. Like, we need to figure out the way you civilize is by suppressing some drives, feeding others. Like, that's how you do it. It's like a baking recipe.

A little more of this, a little less of this. And if you get too much in either direction, chaos takes the day, right? So I think there's nothing wrong with trying to transcend some of our biological drives. Because I think if you're honest, it's not the genital contact that's the real problem. It's not like you're like, I would like to know my offspring is mine. That's why I want to know if she's cheating. It's not that. It's like, hey, wait, we've decided that sex is something that has to have a degree of intimacy to it.

Like it's supposed to be something special. It's supposed to be maybe it's no longer only in marriage. but it's supposed to be tied to something. It's supposed to be, I give a shit about you in some way. It's not just supposed to be like I'm banging. Because here's the thing, wouldn't you agree, right? If your friend, if you have a woman you're friends with and she says, my husband cheated on me, that it's different if he met a woman, cultivated a relationship with that woman and is

sleeping with her on a regular basis, versus he went to a handjob place and paid $50 for an anonymous person to give him a massage, jerk him off, and that was it. On the spectrum of fidelity, those are different. Those are totally different. I mean, those are different. I think one of those you come back from and the other one you might not. You know, just like if your wife, I'm not using your wife as an example, but your wife was flirting with a guy at work versus went out on a date alone with a guy at work, told you she was going to a yoga class and went out with some dude. These are different things. Like you might accidentally like sort of end up flirting with somebody or you might sort of innocently be communicating with someone and then it turns into flirtation.

And maybe you might approach that as her partner differently. You might go, hey, listen, you know what? Like we both are human and you flirt with somebody, but you know, you don't let it cross a certain line. You don't let it cross a certain line. And like we don't, you don't go out alone with this person. Or if you do go to the Christmas party and that person's there and you find you're being flirtatious with them, you don't physically cross a line. Like, and everyone has those rules, right? Like, I don't know that people talk about them the way that maybe they should. Like a lot of my gay male friends are better at this. Like a lot of gay men I know, they have like real clear rule sets about, okay, look, you can kiss but you can't this, or you can't do this, but you can't do that, or you can do that, but you have

to let me know about it. Like a lot of people I know that engage in, you know, ethical non-monogamy or whatever you want to call it, they have rules, like very clear rule. This is one of the reasons why I said, like, polyamory or ethical non-monogamy is not for me. Because everyone I talk to, it sounds like 95% of it is talking about who you're fucking. It's just litigation. Five percent of it is actually fucking. And I find like 95% of it is talking about this and like being like, are you good with this and what are the rules and how are you?

Like that sounds terrible. Like it's the whole reason you want to be in a relationship so you don't have to have so much conversation about what we're going to do to each other, you know? So I really believe that it is a perfectly human thing for people to have attractions. it's perfectly understandable that you would say, I want a clause that will penalize that. But I don't think in practice, again, it's a question of what do you want

and how to express what you want. What you want is you want an insurance policy against cheating. Don't. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. It's like a seatbelt on a plane. Right.

You're trying to have all of the benefits of this relationship without any of the vulnerability. Right. And like it is implicit in the institution that you have to open yourself up. You're trying to mitigate risk. And I understand. that. A lot of what we do as human beings is try to control things. Things we can't control.

That's what we do. Like, we want to feel safe. I get that, of course, right? But I'm human. I want to feel safe too. I just don't believe in delusion. Like, I don't think it's healthy to believe in delusion. Like, I get the idea that, like, you know, it's like they say about, like, on a plane, like, oh, here's where the exit doors. Dude, believe me, that plane goes down. If I'm alive, there's going to be Lots of holes for me to get out of. I'm not going to have to be like, where's the door again? Like, it's not, come on.

Yeah, I think that's actually such a good life philosophy. What you want? How do you express it? Even in fidelity, I think Esther Perel had a really interesting point to this, that most of the time when people are being unfaithful, they're not looking for a new person to express love with. They're looking for a new version of themselves. 100%.

And, you know, Esther Perel is a great example. I was on a panel with her a couple years back. Life Hacker did an event. And we each spoke for like 15 minutes and then we did a Q&A. And it was hilarious because the audience was doing the Q&A, and they handed me the mic, and I kept handing it to Esther Perel. Because I wanted to hear her answer. Like, I was like, I'm a fucking divorce lawyer. She knows what she's talking about.

I'm just the guy at the end here. Like, she's the one who can actually do something. So I get that. And she finally at one point said, like, why are you keeping me the mic? And I was like, because I want to hear your answer to that. And so I think she has a lot to say because our disciplines are different, right? I'm a lawyer. She's a psychologist.

I mean, this is what her background is, is a clinician. And so I think that there's a lot, she is a master and there are a lot of very good clinicians out there writing about love and marriage and monogamy and infidelity and rethinking that. Like she writes a lot about that and I think in probably, she's the gold standard of that. But there's a lot of people writing on the subject. And what they're saying is what is it that's important to you? Like what is it you want and how do you express it? Like, because honestly, like sometimes, you know, even sex, like, well, I want sex, it's no, you want attention.

Yeah. You know, like, validation. Right, you want to feel sexual. Or if somebody says, like, I want this. No, you want to be told you're beautiful. Yeah. That's okay. Like, that's okay.

I want to tell. Like, most people who cheat, you know, my experience is because women cheat just as much as men. I hate to be the one to break that to anybody, but women cheat just as much as men. And in my experience, like, women, you know, there's an old trope that, like, men trade, like women trade love for sex and men trade sex for love. It's like women are like, hey, I want love

and I'll give you sex in exchange for it. And men are like, hey, I want sex and I'll give you love in exchange for it. And again, I know that's a gender trope type of thing. But the truth is, like what we give and what we get and what we are looking for, very often it's ill-defined or it's loosely defined or it's

speculatively defined. So why not just be honest with ourselves about it? And if we're going to sign on for this life time contract with another person, shouldn't we be able to, like, express to that person candidly, here's what I'm feeling right now? And I get it, by the way. I get that, like, that's hard sometimes. Like, even once you've identified what you're really feeling, it's hard to say it out loud to another person. Right. Especially if you feel like it's, uh, there's shame

associated with it. Yeah. And by the way, and it's hard, it's hard to hear it. It's hard to it. Because if you hear it as a criticism, if you hear it as you're failing me, you know, then that's hard too. So that's why I'm saying. the sooner as a married couple or a pre-married couple, we start talking about, look, how are we going to work on ourselves so that we see what we're really dealing with and how are we going to communicate that to each other?

Both, A, I'm going to be vulnerable enough to say it out loud to you. And B, you're not going to hear it and instantly be defensive. So when I say, like, yeah, I feel like you don't fucking like me as much as you used to. Like, you don't, you know, you don't like,

I don't know, you don't want to, you know, you're not as sexual with me as you were when we were first dating. And is it that it was a bait and switch? Like that was the cheese in the rat trap and now we're married and you're like, yeah, fuck it, I don't have to do that anymore. Or is it genuinely that, like,

you don't receive blow jobs, so you don't know how special that is to me. And how awesome it is. Because from where I'm sitting, it's three minutes, maybe, two, if you're doing it right. And for the rest of the day, I feel great and I'm thinking nice thoughts about you.

That's a hell of an investment. Like, if I said there was a pill that you could take that would make your husband for the rest of the day think sweet thoughts about you and not look at other women would you take that pill?

Yes, okay, it takes about two minutes to swallow it. Like, but that's true, but it's the truth. It's the truth. This is the granola blowjobs thing. It's the granola blowjobs thing, yes. Which is, I think, such a good way to frame this. Instead of looking at it as like, oh, this is like my debt that I always have to like do,

it's like, oh no. You don't owe anybody anything. But man, let me tell you, if you could, and the way that I frame it in the book, and I've talked about it before, was shaving. With shaving. I call it behavior modification, you know, in a positive way. Like, I dated a girl, and I, you know, like today I shaved, you know, because it's like anytime I got to work, I shave. I'm going to put on a lawyer costume, I shave. I'd love to have a beard. I'm envious of you. You look like Jesus, and it seems awesome. But I can't get away with it. I got to look like I just came out of a 1950s courthouse. So I, on the weekends, don't shave.

So I like to just sort of have like a little bit of scruff after a couple of days. And I was dating a girl that whenever I would kiss her, she would be like, oh, your face is so scratchy because I would mostly see her on the weekend. And I remember I would think like, you know, like, really? Like I got to shave all week. And I got to shave on the weekends if I want to kiss you. Like, you should be happy. I'm kissing you.

Like, what is this? Like, you're going to give me a hard time about this. Needless to say, it didn't work out with she and I. That wasn't the root cause, but it was a symptom. Next girl I dated same issue. Sensitive skin. I have a coarse beard on the weekends. But what did she do?

On Monday morning when I would shave to go to work, she'd come up to me and she'd like, oh, you're so hot when you're clean shaven. You're like Don Draper on Mad Men. And she would, like, be so into it. Dude, I would have shaved three times a day. I would shave every weekend that I was going to see her. I would be like, oh, you know, I shaved this morning.

She'd be like, I noticed, you know? And I was like, yeah, because I'm fucking easy. Right. I'm easy. Like, I really am. I'm easy to manipulate when it comes. Most guys are. We are, believe me, like, you know, like we are, we are controlled by the small head.

And that's great. That's fine. Like, weaponize it for yourself. We weaponize it to your benefit and mine. We both want this relationship to be good. So, yeah, that's what I mean. There are these little gestures that you don't owe anybody. You don't owe me a blowjob.

I don't owe you that I'll take the trash out. I don't owe you that I'll say nice things about your sister or go to your dad's retirement party. I don't owe you that. But I'll do it. Because I want you to be happy. You want me to be happy. So why not? Why not make that investment?

You know? And if you approach your relationship from, well, why do I have to do that? Okay. Then you're right. You don't. You don't. We also don't have to be married. Yeah.

We also don't have to be married. That's okay. We no longer live in a society where you have to be married. We don't even have to be married to have kids. We don't have kids. People have kids all the time aren't married to each other. Like there's no, there's no longer that assumption. So, like, if you're,

you're going to sign on for this thing, have a conversation about what's it for, and I would hope that the answer is we're going to try to get ahead of each other's stress and try to help each other make each other feel good. And again, for some people, you know, those little gestures, I'm not saying a blowjob is a little gesture. That's amazing. But it's, it is a little gesture in terms of a time commitment. And it is a little gesture in terms of like it's something that it's not, you don't have to like study for a month. You know, like, these are things. So, all that is, those are the ways we feel loved.

I mean, if I said to you, like, when do you feel loved by your wife? I don't think your answer would be when we're having sex. I mean, maybe. Like, that's lovely. It's part of it. But like, you know, if you think about like a time where you felt loved by her, I'm sure it would seem very silly to me. When I go to a show on the weekend and my whole suitcase is packed and then she leaves a note in it.

Amazing. And it says, like, hey, you're going to have an amazing. amazing show, you're the best. Amazing, dude. That's beautiful. That's awesome. That is awesome. And that makes you feel really loved.

And by the way, I bet that feeds in you a desire to make her feel that same way. Oh yeah, this weekend I'm not going to cheat on you. Right, exactly. So after that show, you're going to put that note away when you fuck somebody. No, you're going to, you're going to, yeah, you're like, I'm going to put this in my wallet. And I'm not going to let it lay out there while I'm with these hoax. Yeah. No, that's really kind of you are.

You have my card, right? Yeah. Just keep it. Maybe your wife might... Yeah, you want to give it to her. I'm actually curious about that. That's a great segue. Is it more fun?

I don't know if fun would be the word. To advocate and work with the good guy or the bad guy? That's a great question. No one has ever asked me. I love that. Because obviously, there's not always a good and bad guy. Yeah, I'm going to tell you. I prefer to represent the bad guy or a bad woman.

And here's why. Because it's lower stakes. It's lower stakes. I'll work just as hard. I represent victims of domestic violence. I represent perpetrators of domestic violence. I represent the cheated on and I represent the cheater. Like I've represented the person whose spouse was fucking the nanny,

and I've represented the person fucking the nanny. And I would rather represent the villain. For two reasons. One is tactical. Like the bank robber always has a tactical advantage over the cops because they can shoot innocent bystanders. Like the person who doesn't care about the kids has a significant tactical advantage in divorce litigation. So you have a bigger palate to choose from.

Because if you just don't care, the Joker always has a tactical advantage over Batman. Right. Because he has no morals. He has no morals and he's just like, I have the freedom to just do whatever. So one is tactical. The other is it is very frightening as an advocate to know that the only thing standing between justice and your client is the argument you're going to make on their behalf. High pressure.

So if I'm representing an unbelievable piece of shit and I do a really good job as an advocate and I obfuscate the facts and I misdirect and I'm successful in my argument, I did my job, the system failed, but it wasn't my fault. Like I did the best I could do, their lawyer didn't do the best they could do, and that's how our system works.

Sometimes the innocent go to jail, sometimes the guilty go free. That's how it works. Like, it's not perfect system, but, you know, it's, like, our legal system's the worst one except for all the other ones. Like, it's, you know, it's, it's like our democracy. It's, you know, like, listen, it's not perfect, but it's pretty good. It works most of the time. And when I lose, when I'm representing a villain and I lose, I never throw the game.

I work just as hard for any client. But when I lose, I go, okay, like I was supposed to lose. Yeah. The guy was guilty. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're going to do. Like, that's how it is. Like, yeah, you didn't get custody.

It's not that involved with a father. What do you want from me? I didn't do that. It's not my fault. It's not my fault would be way better off. Yeah, like, listen, you, I'm a chef. You give me the ingredients. You give me the ingredients.

And listen, I'm a good chef. You give a really good chef. Shit you bought at 7-Eleven, they're going to make it taste good. You know? They can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit, but they can take beef jerky and ramen noodles and make it, like they can make something out of it. You give them good ingredients?

They're going to knock it out of the park. Bad chef, give them good ingredients, they'll burn it to a crisp. Give them bad ingredients, guarantee it's going to be really awful. So I'm a chef, and my attitude is, yeah, I love having good ingredients. But you know what? A lot of times people hire me because they have bad ingredients. And they need the best chef possible to bring out the best of the ingredients that they have. And so I do my best.

But again, when I'm representing a person who has such good ingredients, like that, dude, I can't blame it on the ingredients if I lose. So it's very high stakes. Like I've been doing this 23 years. I still don't hardly sleep the night before a trial. Really? I pace the boards, man. I'm lucky if I get an hour or two hours of sleep because I'm so nervous.

I'm so nervous. I want to do a good job. This is full contact storytelling. And it's like high stakes. Like it's going to change the trajectory of people's lives. And so when I'm representing a piece of shit, I sleep through the night. I'm no problem. No problem.

I'm going to go and do my best. I'm going to do what. If it doesn't work out, what are you to do? The truth came out, despite my best efforts. Are there any cases you wouldn't take? Has anyone ever come to me like, hey, man, here's what's going on. Here's what I'm dealing with. No.

Really? Well, I mean, I've turned down clients. If somebody says to me like, oh, I've hacked their email, so I see the emails that she's like, I'm not going to do that. I want to win or lose a fair fight. Like, I don't cheat. People have done that. Oh, yeah, people have done that.

Yeah. Oh, my God. People are constantly hacking email. and things and like straight you know dubbing someone's iPhone and so they're getting text messages. They like know their communications with their lawyer. Clients get mad at me because they'll like email me and be like,

what should I do about this? And I write back and I'm like, call me and we'll discuss it. And they're like, well, why can't you just send me an email? I'm like, because people hack people's emails and I don't need give you substantive legal advice via email. I'm paid to be paranoid. And let your spouse see it. No, because I know it's not paranoia if it's real. Like in the reality is

I have a lot of clients who they come in and they happen to just know, well, planning on filing a motion anymore. I'm like, how do you know that? They're like, don't worry. I just know it. And I'm like, okay, I mean, I can't. If you tell me explicitly, then I can say, okay, I'm getting off this case. But if I just suspect that you might have hacked someone's email, I can't get off the case for that reason. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And is that like, that's why a criminal lawyer will never ask their client, are you guilty? Did you do it? You don't ask that question. Because if they say, yes, I did, but I want to go in and pretend I didn't,

you're committing an ethical violation. So you don't ask a client that question. You don't ask them, are you hiding money? Where are you hiding it? You don't ask them that. But sometimes you suspect your clients hiding money. Sometimes you suspect that they know something that they're not telling you. And it's unfortunate when it happens, but it's the nature of the job. I mean, we have an adversarial system.

So theoretically, I should be able to do my job as best I can. They do their job as best they can, and the truth comes out somehow. Like a trial is a search for the truth. In your work, you've been mostly in New York City? Yeah. Well, New York in the surrounding areas. I do Westchester, Rockland. Do city people get divorced differently than more like rural suburban people?

Well, there's a lot of more money at stake a lot of the time. Like the city, this place is like, you know, I always tell people the reason why I like New York City is that whatever you're into, there's someone doing it at the highest level. Like I don't know anything about making a boat in a bottle, but there's like some dude in the city who's like the best boat in a bottle maker. I don't even have to look it up to down. They're just in. It's like right. Like I had a conversation with somebody the other day and I overheard them talking to their friend and they said, yeah, we were at like our, like our, like our, our. our third favorite Ethiopian restaurant.

And I was like, only in Manhattan that you have a third favorite. Like, that presumes that there are multiple Ethiopian restaurants in the city that you've eaten at, and this one ranks as third. Like, that's incredible. You know what a gift that is? But you think in Wisconsin, people are like, that's only my third favorite Ethiopian place. Like, it's not how it works. You know, so I genuinely, in the city, the stakes are high.

But I will tell you some, when I started my career, I was like a minute out of life. law school. I had the hubris of youth, which is the only way that I went out and literally hung out a shingle. Like I got out of law school, passed the bar, and I was like, all right, I'm a divorce lawyer. Wait, really? I didn't have any clients. I borrowed five grand, $2,500 from a friend of mine, 2,500 from my dad. And I opened my own firm. Oh, wow. And everybody was like, what the fuck are you doing? You don't have any clients. And I was like, yeah, if he built it, they'll come. Which, by the way, looking back, and like, I have a son who's a lawyer now. If he proposed that, I'd be like, are you crazy? Join a firm. But at the time, I was so, yeah, I don't know.

You know? And so I went over to the courthouse and you could get assigned counsel cases for $25 an hour that they would pay you. So I just did as many assigned counsel's cases as I could. I took as many of them to trial as I could get paid. And also I'd learn how to try cases. But I would just hang around the courthouse. If I saw somebody looking like they didn't know what they were doing, like, like they didn't have a lawyer. I would walk up and I'd be like, oh, do you want me to help you fill that out? I'm here on another case, but I'll just help you want. And then I'd be like, oh, you know, if you want to hire me, I'd be happy to help you. And I would just, I was like, better call Saul. Like I was like soliciting business.

And then I started to represent. I remember the first time someone gave me a $2,500 retainer, and I thought it was all the money in the world. And I was going to bill against it at $150 an hour. To put that in perspective, I make $750 an hour now, and I take a $25,000 retainer. So, like, back then, though, that was, like, all the money in the world. Right.

And a divorce that I did back then, and the divorce I do now for my client who has $7 billion, it's the exact same thing. Like if you're a coroner, the body of a homeless person and the body of the president, it's the same meat. It's nothing. It's just this larger scale. What I will tell you is New York City is unique in that we are the heart of finance of the world, really of the world. Like Wall Street is here.

And, you know, Stalin, I think, is the one who said that the death of one is a tragedy and the death of a million is a statistic. If you have $300 million and you're going to now have $150 million, nothing's really that different in your life. It's numbers on a page. Like the interest on your money will make more money than most people make in their entire lifetime. Right. But the interest on your happiness is extremely little.

But let me tell you something. If you hate your ex, you've got a lot of ammo. You got a lot of ammo you can kill them with. Like I've had, like, I've had, clients say, like, I'm not going to quibble over a million bucks. Like, that's crazy. Really? I'll quibber over a million bucks. I'll quiver over a million. I'm not going to quiver over 25 cents. But if you got $7 billion, a million dollars, like not that much money. Have you heard that people that have wealthy or expensive weddings are more likely to get divorced?

Yes, they're actually statistically. That's true. But also I've seen it in practice. And what I'll say is that those are people with resources so they're more likely to have an ugly or contentious divorce because they have more to argue over. Makes sense. But it's not super simple because what I'll also say is in times of scarcity, people do kind of bond together, right? So, like, if you're afraid you're going to lose the house, nothing unites like a common enemy.

Like, if the bank is the enemy, the two of you have to bond together, right? So, you know, that's why people said to me, like, oh, did COVID increase divorces? And I was like, well, no, COVID at first had the opposite effect, which is, like, the fear and the vulnerability motivated everybody to like stick together. But then once it started to pass, it was like, well, we said for better or for worse,

we didn't say for lunch. And like being stuck in the house together all this time, it like created certain resentments and cracks in things. So I generally would say that what happens in New York City because New York City is like an amplifier of a lot of things. You know, it amplifies like

traits in people. Like it's a very intense city. And so I represent a lot of high net worth people in a lot of different industries. So I represent entertainment people. I represent people in finance. I represent C-suite executives. I represent medical professionals, law partners. And each of those has very unique pathologies to it. People in finance, sometimes they're quant people, like they're very numbers based and they have no emotional vocabulary. A lot of them would be on the spectrum if we really looked at it. but they've monetized it so we don't. Physicians, like, you know, high stress, high stakes, they're used to people like genuflecting,

you know, they're used to people like deferring to their judgment, which is not always great in the marriage, like to have people like kissing the ring all the time. And then your spouse is like, okay, I'm not impressed. Like you're not doctor whatever to me. You're my friggin' husband, you know. Celebrities, most insecure people in the world, like fame is the mask that eats into the wearer. Like it turns people into something. and then it's never, like you're never famous enough.

You know, and then you're constantly, like there's another, you know, it's the horizon that forever recedes. So being told by your divorce lawyer, like, yeah, no, you have to be here on Tuesday. Well, I can't be there Tuesday. Yeah, you're going to be there Tuesday. It's a judge. If you're not there, they're going to enter an order in default in your absence. So you're going to be there.

Well, I'm supposed to shoot this. Okay. Sorry. Like, I've had to serve. Like, I had to have a celebrity served at Paris Fashion Week. like served with papers. Damn. You know?

And then they were like, they got served with the papers. Like, well, I can't be there. I'm shooting in L.A. that week. And I'm like, uh-huh, you'll be there. Like, if you won't, we'll just get a default judgment against you.

Yeah, what is that about? Sometimes you see these big displays where people are served divorce papers at like some sort of ostentatious thing. You're thinking of what's her name. Was it Jason Sadecas?

Yeah. Who did divorced? I forget what her name was. Yeah. And it was like a whole thing. Yeah, because she was served while on stage at like a a thing. I was asked to comment on this for Access Hollywood, and I did.

So I wasn't involved in that specific case, but I've had that, I've had people to talk about on the news something that I was behind, or like somebody got served in a very public way. Here's the problem. If I have to, under New York State law, New York State law was not designed, or law was not designed for celebrities in mind specifically. Like, and there's not, thankfully, a separate laws that pertain to celebrities. You might think that with the frequency with which they run people over and have DWIs and somehow get out of it. But they're not. They're theoretically equal protection under law.

So they're not theoretically supposed to be able to like kill their spouse and get away with it because they're good at football or shit like that. Yeah. When would that happen? Just a random example. So you're not supposed to, but you know, it happens, right? You get as much justice as you can afford. So celebrities, they live in a very rarefied situation, right?

So if I, under New York State law, you have to serve someone. personally with divorce papers. And you can't be someone with what's called consanguinity to the case, meaning it can't be like a relative. And it can't be someone who works for my office because we have a reason to potentially lie. So it has to be a

person over the age of 18 who's not related to either party. They're just a neutral person who has no incentive to lie and pretend that they serve someone when they didn't. And you have to personally serve the person. Why? Because you can't say, oh, I mailed it to them, but then you mailed it to the wrong address or you got lost or whatever. Okay. So you have to serve a person,

personally. Okay, if I could serve you with papers, I could stab you. I could shoot you. So if you're a celebrity who has decent security, I should never be able to get up to you and touch you with hand you papers. Ever, ever. You shouldn't be able to. So if someone is a celebrity or dating a celebrity and I have to serve them, I have to have them served with papers for family court or for a divorce, you got to get within a certain distance that. So when are you going to do that? You have to get creative. Like, Good process servers get creative. And in the case that I was just referencing, it was actually really important to serve this person in a particular time frame because one person was from a different jurisdiction than the other.

And the person who served first was going to get the court advantage. So it could be in England or could be in the United States or could be in California or it could be in New York depending on who serves the other one first. So as a lawyer, there are procedural reasons I might say to a client, avoid service. because once you get served, we're locked into this jurisdiction, and I don't want you to because the child support laws are more favorable in L.A. than they are here. Oh, wow.

So there's reason. This is a game. And then to not get served, you have to not leave your home. You have to duck service. Wow. Yeah, which, by the way, if you're a celebrity, pretty easy. Right. Because you don't walk out the front door. Right.

You have a detail. They have different entrances, and they have different exits and things like that. Like, it's not like you can wait outside of Madison Square Garden and you'll see Billy Joel. Right. He comes in and goes out through a separate entrance, so you ain't going to see that guy.

Wow. That's interesting. Yeah. What role does pornography play in divorce? I mean, I try not to watch it that often in court, but the phone is right there and the Wi-Fi is so good in the courtroom and there's nothing really going on. And, you know, it's boring just watching that guy get fucked. I can't watch it here. No, what role does pornography play? Porn? There are a lot of people that point out to me that their spouse is looking at pornography as if somehow there should be like, I mean, first of all, there's no good

spouse bonus or bad spouse penalty. Like, you know, if you get in divorce because your spouse left the cap off the toothpaste, or if you get divorced because your spouse like was looking at, you know, the outcome is the same. Yeah, the outcome is the same. So I guess, yeah, in a procedural way, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't really matter. But on a personal basis. But on a personal basis, yeah.

I mean, look, I think that, I think, and my Catholicism will show here. So this sleeve of tattoos on my arm. is the seven deadly sins done as skulls. So each of them is represented by skulls. And then this side is all Catholic stuff, the Pecks Christi, the Six Fruits of the Holy Spirit. So I have lots of, all my tattoos symbolize something. The reason why I had the sleeve done 20 years ago of the Seven Deadly Sins

is to remind myself that the seven deadly sins are actually all normal human drives taken too far. Gluttony is hunger. taken too far. Lust is the desire for sex, taken too far, right? Sloth is the desire for rest, taken too far. Envy, natural inclination towards jealousy, taken too far, right? So, pornography is like food. You can have a healthy relationship with it or an unhealthy relationship with it. And very often you don't realize your relationship with it is unhealthy. So, and again, I'm not, a psychologist, I don't have the right to say to someone like, oh, porn is healthy or unhealthy, or what kind of porn is healthy or unhealthy. But I think in this society, lots of things have

changed and we're not honest about it. Right. So, first of all, the accessibility to pornography has changed dramatically. Like, when I was a kid, you had to work to get access to pornography. I had to trade, like, so many comic books with my neighbor Tom so that I could borrow his dad's videotape copy of garage girls. Oh, hell yeah. That was the movie, which, by the way, the whole thing is streaming online. And I watched it the other day. And I was like, wow. Brought back memories.

Oh, my God. Are you kidding me? This is something I watched when I was 15 years old and could have memorized it. And I'm watching it now. And I was like, oh, it still stands up. And by the way, that woman's dead now for sure. Because she was like in her 20s then. But here's what I'll tell you, what it drove home to me.

And I'm not a big consumer of pornography. but like it was so innocent it was the most innocent pornography you've ever seen like it was so oh my god first of all the women's bodies just looked like women's bodies

they didn't look like this perfectly photoshop and the dudes just looked like dudes like and the sex was like it was just very typical sex like it was very formulaic you know it was very but it was not like the like kind of mean-spirited

like very like it wasn't intense like it's intense now you know like I have to tell as a guy who was a product of like the 70s and 80s, like, you know, like the porn that's out there now is like, holy shit. It's like the weed that's out there now. Like in high school, like I could smoke weed and it was like you smoke a whole joint and you're fine. Now it's like two puffs so I can see through time. You're like, wow, that I actually, when I purchase weed, like I will say like what's the weakest shit you have?

Boomer weed. Yeah. Give me like the like, well like I just came back from Jamaica. I was like what's the like Jamaican dirt weed? What do you got that's got like 15% THC at best? Give me the weed God made. Yeah, yeah, give me the word. Do not give me shit you made in the lab.

You know? And so I think that porn is, it's kind of like, what is your relationship with porn? Like, I do think there is an element of efficacy to pornography. Like, I think, look, as a man, I think there is something in us that, like, you just think clearer when you just, like, clear the poison out of your system. Sure. So I think that, like, a dude who just, like, either gets to have sex. in the morning or just beats off in the morning.

Like, you just think clear-headed. You're less of, like, motivated by that. You're just sort of like, okay, you know, like, I was a big fan of, like, before you go out and a date jerk off, because you're going to see the woman much more clearly. You know, and I think that's good. Like, and after, like, if it's four hours later,

all of a sudden, like, the monster is coming back up again. And you're like, excuse me for a minute. You know, you have to run off. So I want to see her clearly, you know? So I think pornography has a purpose. But I, when I see it as a feature in divorce, it's when it's become pathological. It's when it's like, yeah, this person

is now having sexual dysfunction as a function of their addiction and pornography. Like, I see, it's like the seven deadly sense. I see every variety of human interests taken to its most pathological level. So I have people that their political views become so untethered and intense

that they're getting divorced now. Or their gambling has now taken over their life. And again, I know people that gamble, Pat, like, if I go to Vegas, I'll play Blackjack. And like, as always, the house wins. But, like, I have fun with it, you know. But I don't put anything on the table. I'm not ready to lose. Right.

This is the cost of having fun right now. Right. But I've had, like, divorces where the woman says, like, yeah, he's like, I'm in bed. I would happily have sex with him and he's off in a room masturbating to pornography. Like, that's a different thing. It's not the pornography. Like, no more than gluttonies the food. Right.

It is your pathology. It's your relationship with it. Right. Which is unhealthy. Is it like the, like, the, The weed, is it now way too accessible and way too powerful and way too insane? Like, I feel very badly for young people whose current conception of what sex looks like is based on current pornography.

I feel very bad for them because I don't think actual sex really looks like that, except to the degree that people are now accommodating their sex to be performative in a manner that resembles pornography. But I don't know that's actually feeding anyone's joy. Yeah, I've read a tweet recently. It was like learning how to have sex from porn is like learning how to drive from the Fast and the Furious. You know what I mean? It's like you are getting.

That is a great battle. Absolutely summarizes what I just like it's absolutely right. Because yeah, I guess you could do it that way. And people can try to accommodate themselves to that. But like, is that really the sex that's like healthy for you to be feeding yourself with? Is that really what you want? Is that long-term, like a relationship? Like, can you have that kind of sex with a long-term partner?

You know, like, I mean, whenever people talk about, and look, I think there is a certain cooling that happens. And, you know, you first start dating someone. And if you're, you know, people that are having premarital sex, like you're going to, like, throw everything at the person. Like, hey, let me try to try everything. Let me try everything that they might like. But then you figure out, like, the greatest hits, you know?

Like, you figure out, like, okay, she likes this. She's not too great on this. So I'm just going to do the things she likes. And vice versa. Hopefully she's like, oh, I already likes this. And this didn't get much of an applause. So, okay, I'll do more of this and a little less of this. Well, so then you just keep doing that to each other.

And then after a while, like, it's a routine. And then party you start to go like, oh, well, would be nice to do something different than that. But it was well-intentioned on both sides. Right. But it's like, okay, you know, you start to do that thing. And if one of you now throws like an audible and goes, okay, I'm going to do it different. And then you're like, well, what was that? Like, where did that come from?

You know, whereas it should be met with, oh, wow, cool. Like, we're trying something different, you know? Because look, you go see Bruce Springsteen, you want to hear Born to Run. Yeah. But if he wants to play the ghost of Tom Joad, like acoustic version, you're like, all right, like, that's for somebody in the audience. But, like, could we not do every show? That's what you're going to do? Because I came for Born to Run, you know?

You know, like, so I think sex is the same thing. And pornography, it creates a very stylized, idealized. But, you know, something I've said, which has been very criticized, is I think rom-coms are porn for women. Like this, like, love conquers all, and the person changes into this person. Love changes them completely. Or the woman is, like, cold, and then she finds the one true penis, and it changes her whole life. His first of the guy's a doofist, but she fixes him. Right, or he's like a psychotic, like, bribillion.

I mean, look at 50 shades of gray. He's a psychotic billionaire in amazing shape who can't be a love, but he meets this doughty typical girl and suddenly he's vulnerable and loving and cares. That's going to get people murdered. Like that movie is going to get people killed. But I get it. Like I get that that's what you would find appealing. In practice, it's stylized. It's porn.

It's porn. That's not what it looks like. So, yeah, I'm sure there's lots of guys that go out and are like, okay, I can do a passive limitation of Christian Gray. Yeah. Like I can do a passable limitation of somebody. But it's not true. Just like, oh, there's a number of women. They'd be like, all right, fuck it. I can act like a porn star for, you know, 20 minutes in bed. No problem. I can do that. But, okay, but is this authentically you're going to wear that mask? Right. Yeah, it's not sustainable. Right. Right. So the danger of authentically being yourself is that someone might see it and not like it. And again, you're trying to mitigate risk. But I would rather, I would rather an uncomfortable truth than a comfortable lie. Yeah. Like, I would rather be loved for who I am than loved for a fiction. Of course.

So I think that most people... But in order to be loved for who you are, you have to be willing to be rejected. And you have to make yourself vulnerable and show risk. And you have to know when you're not being yourself. Right? Like, you have to know when are you being authentic. Which comes back to know who you are, know what you want. Yeah, most of the time when people come to me and they say, like,

well, because a lot of times people will come to me we're having marital problems, but they're not quite in the terminal phase yet. Like they haven't been served with anything, but they're like, this thing's getting, I'm seeing some cracks in it, so I just want to know what my rights and obligations might be. And I appreciate that.

And a lot of times people say to me, like, oh, do you send those people to marriage counseling? And I actually say, no, the first thing I do is send them to counseling. Like, the first thing they need to do is go figure out what the fuck's going on in their head. Like, because before you start figuring out what's going on in the couple dynamic.

First, figure out what's going on in your head, what you want, what you're afraid of, what your shit is that needs to get unpacked and looked at. Then, let's get together and do some kind of couples counseling. In a perfect world, when people are having marital problems, they'd go to individual counseling, figure out what's going on in their own head, then they'd come together, and they would talk together about what they've now learned about what they want and what they need. This was the controversial thing that I said on Lex Friedman, where I said, like, if I could wave a wand and do some crazy thing, it would be psilocybin-assisted marriage counseling or psilocybin-assisted divorce mediation. Because people would get deeply in touch with what's going on inside them in a way that I think the medicine of psilocybin can help people access.

And then they would come together with a heightened sense of empathy and self-awareness and connectivity and realization of their place in the universe and the connection. activity of everybody and they would figure out do we stay together or do we part in a way that honors our connection to each other and our love for each other. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's, I'm a fan of psilocybin assisted therapies. I actually talked to a psychologist that does psilocybin and ketamine assisted therapies and his whole point was like these substances will give you a three-dimensional view of whatever the problem is that you're dealing with and you're able to view it without the emotional attachment of that thing. Amazing. So now you're not emotionally attached to it and you're basically able to see the situation as if you were a third party.

And so the reason your friend can give you such good advice but can't take his own advice or you can give such good advice but can't take it is because you're the emotional attachment and the trauma with what that situation entails. And there's something about for those of us that have had those kinds of psychedelic experiences and have experienced plant medicine in that way, not in the like, okay, I'm just going to like do this and go to a music festival. Like to see it as a way to sort of strip a lot of the artifice and become very sort of raw. and bring yourself. Like when you do that under the right guidance, you know, I went to, very recently,

I went to Jamaica for a psilocybin assisted retreat. And it was a therapeutic psilocybin assisted retreat. And it was a week of therapy, group therapy, then psilocybin experience, then processing and integration in group therapy. And by the end of that week, like the people that attended that with me, we were bonded in a way. Like, we had been stripped raw. by the medicine and by the group processing of what was going on. But I have to tell you, like, it was a transformative experience for everybody who was there. Everybody who was there walked out of that going, wow, that was like a transformative experience. Why?

Because all of that pretense, all of that fabrication, all of that performative you, it's like stripped away. And you're brought down to this very vulnerable state. And whether you have like a beautiful experience of understanding the connectivity, of things and that we're all part of one thing only experiencing itself subjectively and death is a delusion. All the stuff that people report is like a mystical experience or whether you had a challenging what used to be called a bad trip or really what is a challenging experience that like humbles you and brings you back to a place of like, okay, that just humbled me. And now they're going to help me rebuild myself based on something like more real. Like I think it's an amazing opportunity.

I don't think we'll do it because we don't want to we don't really want like we don't have health care in this country We have sick care Like get sick here's the symptom. Let's control the symptom. Let's not control the illness Let's control the symptoms of the illness like I remember a buddy of mine who was constantly eating Tums you know he's constantly eating like anti-acids I remember watching a commercial that was like guys eating a chili dog and he's like oh You know I think it was like dude don't eat chili dogs like if you like what do you mean like like what it If your body is reacting this way, it might be that it's...

Cover it up. Cover up to symptoms. But that's it. You know, and I think putting a band-aid on a bullet wound is not a good idea, you know. And our culture has a tendency to either put band-aids on bullet wounds or treat dandruff with decapitation. We over-correct this way or we over-correct this way? Yeah. Or we over-correct-thow. It's either open borders or lock everybody up and don't let anyone in the United States.

Okay, guys, I think we both know. be a solution in the middle. I think we both know this is not the solution. Like it is not, there are men and there are women, and men do this, and women do this. And men kill elk with their bare hands, and women have to sit home and nurse babies. Or there's no such thing as gender, and it doesn't exist, and biology has nothing to. Okay, guys, you're both nuts, and you know it. You know it.

You're just in this tug of war. And the only way to win the tug of war is drop the rope. Like, drop the rope. Because everybody's pulling so hard. in their respective directions and they're so invested in the fight it's just like divorce they're so invested in the fight they don't even remember what they were fighting about and they certainly don't give a shit about the things they claim they give a shit but they don't care about their kids they don't care about their kids they're invested in the fight yeah i want thanksgiving every

year why because fuck him that's why yeah i want to win and the truth is that that's not a acceptable answer yeah like that's not by the way that's not what they'll say they'll say well because my family has a tradition there's a great reason right they have permission of their own conscience to be as petty and vindictive and angry. But that's what I mean when I say, but just be in touch with it. You're angry. It's okay to be angry.

So how do you deal with a client as someone that is, you know, plant therapist, looking at someone that is like deeply angry and just wants to just drive a dagger through this person? Don't you want to just tell them like, buddy, this is not what you want.

I slip them as much psilocybin as I can. I just dose them unintentionally. And this isn't on, is it? No, there's some client of my scene and they're going like, that's why. I thought, holy, How? I wondered why the judge's face was melting. I just thought that was weird. No, I really what it is is, is, um, I actually try to like leverage that. Like, I never want my clients to feel like they're not being understood. Like, a lot of my job is to like have a client feel understood. So like when a client says like, well, I want this. I don't go like, no, you don't. What are you an idiot? Like, I'll go like, you know, I hear what you're saying, man. Like, I know you don't mean that. I know what you're saying, man. I know what you're your saying. Man. I know what you're your saying.

saying is I really don't want to screw up all the traditions my family had and I want like so I hear you when you the spirit of the point of the cross like I say to the person like I really cling to the angels of their better nature you know because I do care about them like I really do I don't believe in like good people and bad people I I've spent too much time with human emotional complexity to view people that way I actually think that my experiences with with plant medicine have probably done a lot to like that that sense of commonality like it's It's only been fed by that. Like when I spend time with clients, like, you just realize, like, it's just hurt people hurting people. It really is. Like, even perpetrators of domestic violence, like, a lot of times they grew up in a house where domestic violence was present. Of course.

And so they just think that this is a normal way to do things. And I'm not excusing their behavior. But I think that to write them off as evil people is not going to solve a fucking problem. Right. Like, I think what you have to do is you have to, like, refocus them and be like, look, I get it. Like, I get what happened happened. But you're better than that. You care about your kids more than that.

Yeah, is there a therapy for children that are the victims of domestic abuse to go into early as a prophylactic to not, you know, perpetuate this? So, like, how many things we've talked about here today, the solution is some proactivity. Yeah. The solution is not, how do I react when it's already too late?

The solution is, how do I get ahead of this? And that's really, like, the whole thing. I think most things in life, like, you know, I picked on David Goggins earlier in this conversation, but like, you know, he's the one, or he and Jocko, I think Jocko was the one who said the discipline is trading what you want now for what you want most. And both of those guys, I think, excel at the idea of trading what you want now for what you want most. Like, what I want now is chocolate cake. What I want most is vibrant good health. So I'm going to trade what I want now for what I want most. I'm not going to have that now. Like, when my sons were growing up, I remember saying to them, like, listen, a lot of what I talk so much, it's hard to tell what's important. So a lot of what comes out of my mouth is just going to be me shooting my mouth off. But if you listen to one thing I say to you, other than like, don't date a woman with a tattoo of a dagger anywhere on her body and don't get into a land war in Asia, other than those two things.

The best piece of advice I can give you is that the hard thing to do and the right thing to do are almost always the same thing. almost always like everything in life really the hard thing to do and the right thing to do are almost always the same thing like it's harder to say to your partner hey what's you know what's going on like what you know what am i doing right and what am i doing wrong right now or like hey you know like your mood shifted when i said that thing earlier and like did i upset you because like i didn't mean to or or maybe i did mean like i meant to say that thing because it was important to say but I didn't say it to hurt you. Like, it's hard to say when you're feeling neglected,

or it's hard to say when you feel like you're not getting enough sex, or it's hard to say, like, it's hard to say, I'm worried and I think we should have a pre-nup. It's hard to say, I don't feel comfortable signing the pre-up. Like, it's hard. But the hard thing to do and the right thing to do are almost always the same thing. So, long-term, like, trade what you want now for what you want most.

And what most of us want is the same. Like, I refuse to believe, like, all the red pill, manosphere bullshit aside. I don't believe that when Andrew Tate was a little boy, he was like, I want lots of cars and only tangential sexual relationships with women who are increasingly too young for me. I don't think that's what he, I think what he probably wanted is what any of us wants, to be loved, to love, to feel like your life had some fucking purpose, that you left the world a little better than you found it, or at least that you didn't make it any worse necessarily,

like that the people you love where you help them be as safe and happy as you could in the face of a world that's somewhat unrelenting and out of our control. These are very human things, whatever society you're in. I don't believe like Russians want to kill the world and Ukrainians want to save the world. Like I think that Russians love their kids. Ukrainians love their kids. People in Gaza love their kids. People, Israelis love their kids. Like, no, but like I really believe that. And I just don't think that we do ourselves a favor by,

being like, I'm the good guy, they're the bad guy, and that's how this works. And divorce is just a very crystallized, condensed version of the eternal struggle, us versus them, you know? And like, that's all politics ever was, was the systematic organization of human hatred. And divorce is just a microcosm of that. It's just this person who I once trusted, and I thought was the answer. And now I realized there wasn't, like, they're not the answer. I mean, it could be what which at Kerouac said, like, there ain't no answer, there ain't never gonna be no answer, that's the answer. You know, but that's too painful.

So what it is is you fucked my life up. You took my skinny years. Or you were here for the money. And it's like, okay, but you weren't. Like we tried, we screwed it up. It was my fault, it was your fault. It was everybody's fault or it was nobody's fault. I don't care.

Like we are where we are. So what do we do now? So with this perspective, have you ever had a client that explained all the woes of their relationship and how they wanted a divorce and felt in your heart, like, dude, you don't want a divorce. Yeah, I say that all the time.

I say it all the time. I send a lot of business out the door. And how does that go? Sometimes it goes really well and they reconcile. Sometimes more often, so people come into my office all the time and they're like, I want to hire you. I saw you on this or I read your book

or I heard that you're, you represented my friend's wife and he said you ate his lunch for him. And what I'll say to people is, listen, I'm, like, you can do it with a chainsaw or you can do it with a scalpel. I'm a chainsaw. Like, I'm a weapon. Like, you don't use me. You don't want to use me.

If you're in my office, like, something went wrong. Like, it might not be your fault. Like, in the face of an advancing enemy, I'm the guy you want. Like, I'm the guy you want. You better make sure it's an enemy. But you better make sure, right. Because to me, like, you know, at the risk of sounding hokey, like a warrior, a warrior fights, not because he has hatred in his heart for the person in front of him, but because he has love in his heart for the people behind him who he's protecting.

So I love the part of my job where I'm a weapon. Like, I'm all about it. Like, I want to be a weapon to protect. I want to protect someone who needs protecting. That's why I went into this gig, you know. Sometimes, unfortunately, I don't realize my client's the piece of shit until I'm already in. And at that point, I've signed on to do the job and I'm going to do it. But I really believe that a good lawyer will tell the client, like, yeah, you don't need me.

Like, sometimes people come in and they'll start telling me their story. And I'll realize, like, your spouse and you, you need to get divorced. But you don't need me. Like, you need to go to a mediator, the two of you. Like, you're saying, like, listen, she's a great person. She's so lovely. But, like, we just, you know, we're just, it's not working. Like, we're not, you know.

And I'll say, like, well, have you guys, you know, tried to, like, talk to somebody together. of you, you know, and they'll say, yeah, we went to counseling and we just, but we just, you know, we're just, we're just never going to get there. That's interesting. And then I'll say, okay, then I don't think you want to hire me. I think you want to go to a mediator. And I'll give you a list of a bunch of, I get nothing for this. I'm sending money out the door. But I want people to, if you don't need, like, I refuse to believe if you go to an oncologist and don't have cancer, that he's going to go, well, I'm not making any money on you not having cancer. So I'm going to fucking have you get chemo anyway. Like, good lawyers, like, we don't do that. That's an

interesting perspective though. Like when you were getting divorced, would you have hired you? I would never needed me. No, I would never have needed me. We went to a mediator. You were at Zamekwell? You're like, yeah, we went to a mediator. We sat down. I was already a divorce lawyer. Right. We sat down together and I said, look, I wrote up a deal, but don't trust me. Take it to a neutral person. Take it to this media. He took to the guy looked at it. He said, yeah, she's doing very well in this. I was like, yeah, I'd rather give it to her than give it the lawyers, you know, so there we go. And that was cool. It was fine because it was all right. It's only, listen, you know, I've always been of the mind, even when I didn't have money, that money offered you real solutions to imaginary problems

and imaginary solutions to real problems. Like, I don't really think that money is the answer, you know, and as someone who grew up in the Catholic faith, like Jesus's point of view on this was not that money is the root of all evil, the love of money is the root of evil. So I think that the love of money, like the belief that money is the thing. And I understand. Like, as someone who grew up without money, I thought if I had money, I'd have all the things I didn't have.

I'd have security. I'd have less fear. Adulation of your parents. Right, I'd have it. You don't. Turns out you just have money. But I would be lying if I said money doesn't make some things easier and more comfortable. It's wonderful.

It's wonderful to have money. It's a blessing to have money. But to cling to it with it. Like, I have clients with hundreds of millions of dollars who are working at a pace like the wolves are at their door. Because the money has just come to be like some kind of symbol of something for them that is not, it bears no rational relation to reality, you know. So I think a good lawyer will apply the right tool to the right task. And I'm not always going to be the right tool.

Sometimes people have, you know, issues that would be better suited for a counselor. So they need to go to a therapist or they need to go to a couple's counselor or both. Sometimes they need to go to a mediator. Sometimes they just need like a simple divorce lawyer who's just kind of like do, you know, do like a basic simple divorce. Like if somebody comes in and they're like, I want you. And I'm like, what would you? You don't need me. Like I'm not, I'm the guy you need if it's like a mess. Yeah. If it's ugly. Like you got an advancing enemy. Like, you know, and I'm fine with that. It's like from the first season of True Detective. Like the world needs bad men. We keep the other bad men at the door. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, and that's what I'm here for. Like, I'm here to,

I'm here to do a specific job for people, but it's thankfully a job not everybody needs. Okay, the last thing I wanted to know, as a stand-up comic, I've, early in my career especially, I've bombed a lot of shows. Even to this day, I'll have jokes that bomb here and there. I've done a lot of stand-up comedian divorces. They have to remain nameless because it's confidentiality, but it's not a profession that does well with staying married. Yeah, yeah. Because you're on the road and stress involved. So I think the type of person, yeah, absolutely.

The type of person that wants to become a comic is probably someone that's, you know, Well, they've transformed pain usually into something or trauma into something. And also they are someone who there's a tremendous performative streak, but there's also like a tremendous discipline that comes. I think the best stand-up comics, like I'm a huge fan of stand-up comedy. That was one of my greatest moments was like getting to represent people whose comedy I've enjoyed is really shocking to me. Because it's my, that is like literally, I don't go out. The only thing I do is I go out to comedy shows. Oh, really?

What clubs do you go to? I generally go to like bigger shows. I don't go to small club. So I see, yeah, someone's touring. Yeah, someone's touring. I've seen Jessel nick a dozen times. And I've seen him when he's working material out at Levity Live outside the city.

Like I'm seeing Shane Gillis at Radio City. I've seen Lewis C.K. a bunch of times. I even saw him at a couple small clubs when he's working material out. I love good stand-up. Daniel Tash is one of my absolute favorites in terms of his stand-up. I think there's a strong correlation. I've always thought this between attorneys and comedians.

100%. Like, I think it's effectively the same thing. same skill. My brother and I, my brother is a trial attorney, and I am a stand-up comedian. And I've always thought, okay, like the basis of it is creating arguments with what you're given. You have this idea and you're trying to explain it to an audience in a performative way. Yeah, and I would actually say one of the most significant comparisons is I have to do the same thing you have to do all the time. And that is, I have to say something. thing that I've said a hundred times and make it seem like I just thought of it and make it

seem like it's just like occurred to me right now, you know, and I have to do that like 10 times a day. Yeah. You know, just like somebody's going to have to do three shows a night. They're going to have to tell that same. You know, it feels a bit. Have you ever been in? And it's like if you do it like the, have you ever been in there? Like, it's just terrible. Like, you've got to do it. Like, it just, the best stand up, it just comes off. Like, whole man. Like, I just, I just, just read, I don't know if you saw it, the New York Times did this thing about Taylor Tomlinson's development of a joke. And it followed this one joke. It was the closing joke of her, have it all, her latest special. Check it out. Because it showed footage of her when she

was working it out. And then it showed it a few months later. And then a few months later. And it just showed how this joke evolved. And how she like, first it was, oh, my friend said, then it was like, all right, I changed it because that got a better laugh. Like, I remember watching like Jerry Seinfeld talk about the joke he makes about how he's in the taxi and the guy's name was, did it on the symbol for Boron. Yeah. And he was like that guy, he's like, yeah, it didn't start as Boron. It started like the symbol for blah, blah, blah, but then like Boron got a better laugh, so I changed it to that. But like when he's telling that joke, it looks like he's just making it up off top of his head.

It couldn't be any other way. That's why crowd work like works so well because it's like, you know that's improv, you know, even though you know some of those jokes, you had that in the chamber. Exactly. But you're watching it and you kind of go, this looks effort. You know, like stand-up comedy equestrian and trial law. If you're doing it right, it looks like you're not really doing it. It looks like you're just up there. Well, that's the problem of comedy, is that no matter what version you see, everyone thinks I could do that.

100%. You see someone killing and you're like, it's so easy. But I have to tell you, the reason why I am in such awe of stand-up comedians is I watch that and how effortless it is. and I know from my work as a trial lawyer, holy shit, that took a lot of, like, we, this is, there was a lot of effort. Every pause was thought through and tested. And every little nuance of Lafacial, like, was thought through.

Like, they're not up there just rithing, you know? Like, this is, maybe, I mean, there are some who I think could get up there and have, like, just a loose outline. But, like, some you go, if you've watched, like, I've watched a lot of, like, you know, I love to watch, like, something, like, a, Jesselnik is a great example. I watched him. He does a lot of like working stuff out at Levity Live and Nyack, which is right outside the city.

And then he plays it at the beacon. And to watch it there and then six months later watch it perfected. Like Fire at the Maternity Ward was recorded at the beacon. And you can see the back of my head in the front row. And I had seen it basically that set at just outside the city like six months before. And it was great six months before. But it was. unbelievable. Because it was just distilled. And so that's what you're getting when you hire like a divorce

lawyer who's been doing it a while. Like I go in and I make this look effortless. And I make this advocacy. I'm not advocating. I'm just speaking the truth, Your Honor. I'm not, it's not listen, Judge. This isn't, I'm here paid by this person. This is the truth. That is the pattern recognition. Your ability to be, at this point, you've seen every type of divorce. 100%. And I've argued both sides of every issue. And so if someone comes to you and they're like, Can you help me? You're like, I've helped 10 of you this year. Well, what's even funny is when people come into me and they invariably go,

um, you're not going to believe this story, you know? And I'm like, dude, unless you're like a Methodist priest and you're sleeping with like another dude who's a rabbi and that's also the brother of your wife, like you're not even going to flip on my radar, man. But that's the same thing with stand-up. Like even like crowd work where people go,

like I did a show last night and there was like this really rich-looking guy. And then there was like this hood looking black dude. And I was like talking to the black guy. I've been like, yeah, have you ever seen a white, like, just riffing. Right. And my buddy that was there was like, dude, like, how did you just come up with that? It was like, well, I didn't really, like, I came up with it kind of, but I had seen rich looking guys before. And I had seen hood dudes before.

But dude, there's still. And I put it together. There's still so much risk, though. Like, you also have to be willing to take risks. Sure, sure, sure, sure. I mean, part of it is that, like, you know, like, I don't think, I've never done stand-up comedy. But I admire it. I watch it.

I admire it as a craft, even. I just enjoy it. And I have tremendous admiration. for comics because you are not a comic until you've bombed like a bunch of times and you're just fucking bulletproof then because it's like as much as that must have hurt

you survived? You survived like every good comic has bombed and you watch them and I love watching a good comic bomb not that I enjoy it but watching them come back from that. It's incredible and and like good comics like they just have such freedom about it like they're just

like all right look I didn't die. Well they learn how to bomb that's the thing is like you learn that there's a difference between bombing early on where you're just like sweaty and your hands hurt and you feel your feet in your shoes Yeah and there's risk back then too because it's like dude

if you're auditioning to like get placement somewhere and you bomb then it's a much higher stakes but like one of the beautiful things about where I'm at in my career is I'm so established now and in demand that I can take risks now that I used to not be able to take

and that has made me so much better Yeah of course Like, just like you with that crowd work where you're like, all right, I got a rich dude, I got a hood looking black dude. Like, I'm going to take some risks here. And maybe if it blows up in my face and I get it wrong, okay, but I'm not going to die. Like, it's not going to be the end of the world. Yeah, my career is not in jeopardy. Well, I just had an experience.

I was on trial in Queens about two months ago. And long story short, there was a witness on the stand who was put on by the other side to testify about my client was a victim of domestic violence, terrible domestic violence. husband shattered her nose at one point. She had to have surgery to fix the nose. And like most victims of domestic violence, when she went to the doctor to have the surgery, her husband was with her. And he said, what happened to your nose? She said, oh, I was hitting the nose with a cricket ball. Bullshit. Okay. But she wasn't going to say, oh, yeah, he broke my nose. Like, she wasn't going to do that. She was a victim of domestic violence. Like, most victims of domestic violence, like your spouse doesn't beat you up when other people are over. Yeah. They do it in private.

So it's he said she said. So this guy, the husband, I represent the wife, the victim, husband calls one of his college friends to the stand to testify to the fact that 14 years ago he met my client and her nose looked the same as it did now. Now, I said to opposing counsel, who I have a good relationship with, what the fuck are you doing? Why are you putting this guy in the stand? Is his friend from college? It's not going to prove anything. He's just getting up and saying, oh yeah, he never beat her that I saw and her nose looks the same as it did. I'm like, what is the point of that? And he was like, I don't know. I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, client wants to call the person and stuff. So I'm like, okay. So he calls the guy, says, you know,

did you observe him ever? Was he ever abusive to her? No, never. And did her nose look the same? Yes, her nose looked the same 14 years ago as it is right now today in the courtroom. So I said to my client, I'm like, when did you meet this guy? Like this friend? She's like, I met him once 14 years ago for a weekend. We all went away with our respective new spouses to like a vacation for three days. And I met him for three days. And I haven't seen him in 14 years. I saw him for three days once. So the guy. So the guy. So the guy gets on the witness stand. And he testifies that way, so I'd get up on cross.

Now, old me, like young me, would never have taken a risk. So I would have just said, like, isn't it true that he's your friend from college? Yes. And you came here to help your friend. Isn't that right? Yes. And you never saw him beat her, but you weren't alone in a room with them, were you? No.

And she didn't know you that well, so she didn't say to you like, oh, by the way, you know, your friend beats me. Like, no, that wouldn't have been, that wouldn't have been. He said, no, no. So, but I've been doing this long enough that I was like, you know what, fuck it, take some risks. So I said to him, you know, you testified earlier that you remember what my client's nose looked like 14 years ago. Is that right? He said, yeah, absolutely. I said, and is it, do you have like a nose thing? Like, do you like notice the symmetry

and shape of people's nose that you met a remote time ago? He's like, no, I'm just an observant person. I was like, you are. What color's my tie? And I turned around. Posing counsel gets up, objection, your honor, I said, your honor, this man has been staring at me. I said, your honor, this man has been staring at me for 15 minutes unobstructed and I'm five feet away from him, he just said he's observant I want to see if it's true. Judge says, it's cross-examination, I'm going to allow

it. So I have my back turn and I'm like, what color's my tie? He's like, I have no idea. I was like, thank you nothing further, sat down. Now here's it I'll tell you. It's fucking risky. If he goes blue? Yeah, if he goes blue? But here's the thing. If he goes blue, it's actually not the end of the world.

you know, it was a gambit. I tried it. It didn't work. It doesn't mean that he knows what her fucking nose looked like. 14-year-old. But if he says I have no idea, it's out the door. And that's exactly. I sat down. My client goes, that was amazing. How did you know he wouldn't know? I was like, I didn't. But that's the difference. But you were also confident of that if he said the correct color of your tie, that you would have been able to work the next argument. Of course. Because you were confident and know how to fail. And that's what I mean about stand-up is, listen, you gotta take risks. You gotta take risks.

And you take the risks and you practice the material and you hone the material. And then every once in a while, if you're good enough at it, you just do some risky shit anyway. And it fucking works. And sometimes, man, because when it goes right, it goes, like that went so right.

Yeah. That went so right. But you know, the funny part is, like I went out to dinner with my son, who's a lawyer. He's a prosecutor in the Bronx. And he's a new lawyer. He's only been practicing for two years.

And we went out to dinner after, and I told him the story, and I said, don't ever do anything like that ever. Like, this was like, do as I say, not as I do, you know. But we had had a conversation a couple of weeks before where, you know, he's sitting across from me. And it's a little weird having a kid who's a lawyer because, like, he's sitting there in a tie. And he's talking to me about prosecutorial, you know, and I'm thinking, like, I taught you that the cow says move. Like, this is so weird. Now you're checking me off sometimes.

Now you're like, yeah. Now you're like basically a cop, you know, if you're a DA. But he says, he said to me, with all, like, sincerity, he was like, how long was it before you, like, felt like you knew what you were doing? And I said, like, you know, I'll let you know when it happens. Like, I really don't know that I ever feel like I know exactly what I'm doing. Like, I want to believe that even the most seasoned comic is still, like, a little nervous and still a little, like, oh, like, I really want to do a good job, you know? Like, like, because I think that feeds you. A hundred percent.

And also, I think the best comics are also pushing. So, like my buddy Andrew Schultz that I open for a lot, the first 10-50 minutes of every show, he will just do brand-new material about the city that he's in. And so even though he might be really confident about the next hour he's going to do, that first 10-15 is going to be like, all right, so you guys, you know. But I feel like that's a test.

Like, I've watched Andrews stand-up, which I enjoy very much, and I think he reminds me of, like, Floyd Mayweather. Like, Floyd Mayweather for the first three rounds is just doing different stuff because he wants to see how you move your head and he wants to see like when he throws the right like what do you do?

And he's timing you and like you're watching you're like boy this is going to be a boring ass fight like this guy's just like doing nothing and then when he lights it up it's done, it's over because it was like oh all he was doing like my jiu-jitsu teacher

Marcelo Garcia the first time I rode train with him rolled live with him I was like oh my God I'm actually getting somewhere And then I realized, oh no, he's just letting me do, so he knows what's my plan A, and now he's just going to dismant it. And once he went, okay, now he's going to turn it on. Now he knew everything I was going to do. So I feel like Andrew, like, I've seen him do what I've seen a lot of comics do, which, look, who are good at it, which is, they're like, okay, what is this crowd laugh at? Like, what is it?

And where is the loud, where is the, like, where is it coming? Like, he was watching the timing. He's watching the vibe. And then it's like, all right, now here's how I'm going to present this. Yeah, yeah. And he knows, like, what to let loose then. I'll tell you a funny story, he's going to age me. So in 1992, I was a sophomore in college.

And I went to Ramapo College of New Jersey in Mawa, New Jersey. At the time, this was a nothing place to go. It was like all it took was a dollar in a dream. And I was a straight C student with very little prospects, hair down to my shoulders. I wanted to go someplace where I could smoke in my room. That was really all I want. I was the only criteria. So, and it was cheap, and it filled both of those categories.

Now it's actually more impressive college, but back then it was not. So I wanted to stay on campus full time, including during the breaks because my dad was a bad alcoholic and I don't ever want to move home again. So I became an RA, resident advisor. So the RAs had to have RA training, okay? So it was like a one week training thing. I did this for three years. Okay, so at the end, they would have activities each night of RA training to like entertain the people who are training to be RAs. And one night it was like they had like a pizza party and one night they had, and one night they got a stand-up comic.

They paid a stand-up comic. They hired a guy to come and perform in Linden Hall in the lounge to an audience of 15 of us, 15 aspiring, you know, resident assistants. So this guy probably got 40 bucks. Hell gig. Maybe. Dave Chappelle. No way. Dave Chappelle.

Wait, what? Dave Chappelle, 1992. Wow. Fall, Roundupo College in New Jersey. I guarantee if somebody brought it up to him, he'll be like, oh, I remember that gig. No way. To remind it, there was a guy in the RA training whose first name was Colum. Colum was his name.

And Dave was doing crowd work, and it was young. You must have been like 19, 20. He was the same age as us. And he was like, what's your name? I was like, column. He's like, seriously? Like, your name is column? Like, your parents were like, you know, like, and I made some joke about like, you know, other

objects that you could be named. Could have a name to Pillar? Something like, you have a sister named Pillar. It was something like that. He, by the way, he fucking killed to the room of 15 of us. And he must have done half an hour, like of just whatever. About two years, three years later, I'm watching Robin Hood men in tights. And I'm like, that's the guy.

I'm like, that's the guy who performed at the RA training. Like, he's so funny. Like, this guy's so funny. And the next thing I know, there was, I think he was in half-baked and then he was in Chappelle's show. And I remember watching Chappelle's show and being like, holy shit. I knew this guy was good. No way. I knew this guy was good.

And I've now seen him at, you know, I've seen him everywhere. That's an amazing story. But, dude, that's, I mean, that's the level he was at, as he was probably making 40 bucks doing an RA training at Roundpoe College as a stand-up. But here's what I'll tell you it was the same guy Wow It was the same He was just fearless and funny

And like took it seriously Sharp and intelligent Yeah and I have to tell you Someone who's like still followed his career And seeing him perform it You know Radio City and seen him perform it Dude he's it was the same thing

It was just as funny It was just as tight It was just as like he took it just as seriously Like he was amazing Wow Because because Because I think You're seeing a thing put to its purpose

You know You watch Yo-Yo Ma play the cello, and you're just like, oh, that is just a thing put to its purpose. Yeah, someone executing what they're on earth to do. I am that in court. Like, I am in a courtroom I'm incredibly comfortable. In my living room, I'm not quite sure what to do with myself. No, I need to know, have you ever bombed an opening statement? Early in your career.

I bombed in court. I bombed in court. What does bombing in court look like? Asking the wrong question at cross-examination. Can you give me an example? ideally one that's extremely embarrassing and humiliating that you never wanted to know

believe me I got plenty of them I yeah you learn listen you're not a comic till you bombed and you're not a lawyer until you fucked it up you know I actually bombed so bad in court once that I called I happened to have the judge's cell phone number because he had spoken

at something and he'd had to give him a cell phone number and I called him crying that night crying like a child No. Because I was convinced, yeah, I was, so I was assigned to represent. I was very early in my career, maybe a year. I was a year out of law school. I'd opened my own firm.

I was doing assigned counsel work and I'd been assigned to represent a young African-American boy. So there's, in New York State, if you're under the age of 18 and you commit an offense that fits into certain categories of crimes and you don't have a record, they do what's called a juvenile delinquency proceeding in family court rather than a criminal charge. So J.Ds, they call them, juvenile delinquency proceedings, are a lot like being a criminal lawyer, except it's in family court. So I have a lot of experience doing JDs. So early in my career, I did a lot of them because it's a lot of assigned work, and you can get it. And it was like, you don't have to be, you know, I wasn't sought after as a lawyer at the time.

So I was like, okay, I get to take this case. And this kid was accused of sexually assaulting a little girl. He was like 14, and the little girl was like 7. and he was accused of having, like, touched her inappropriately. And the county attorney was prosecuting it had said that they had DNA evidence and they had all these things. And I was like, oh, shit, this is like, they got a good case against this guy. And then I dug a little deeper.

And, like, the DNA evidence they had was they found remnants of his own semen on the inside of his boxers, which when I was 14, like, if you've gone around my room with a crime scene, like, are you kidding me? Like, my semen was everywhere, you know? So I really had a good case, but I put my client on the stand, which is a rookie thing to do. Because you don't have to call your client as a witness. If you're accused of a crime, you have the right against self-incrimination. You have the right to not take the stand.

And no one can force you to testify against herself. So all your lawyer has to do is punch holes in the prosecution's case. because you don't have to prove you're innocent. They have to prove you're guilty. That's the burden of proof. So I just thought, nope, I'm going to put him on the stand. He's innocent and I'm going to let him testify. And he got on the stand and he testified in a way that was, it wasn't good.

Like the attorney on the other side was a lot more seasoned than me. And they managed to do a great job of cross-examining this young man. And they made him seem very guilty. And the judge ultimately found him, you know, found him to have a jury. to have committed the juvenile offense. And I was convinced that because I had put him on the stand, I had caused an innocent person to, and I was panicked.

I mean, I literally was crying in the parking lot of the courthouse and was inconsolable because I thought I fucked this kid's life up forever. The good news is that I didn't, that the judge got it wrong, it went up on appeal, his appellate lawyers won the appeal and the kid was fine he never did any time

everything went fine because the truth was I'd put on an excellent case but the cross was a good cross and they'd done a good job of throwing up smoke and mirrors and it was good enough to throw off the judge but ultimately a higher court you know that's why we have an appellate system

right but it was one of the scariest things I've ever had done and what it did is it taught me to take it really really seriously yeah and look more than once I've you know, most of the time when I fall on my face, it's not my fault. It's the client's fault. Like, the two people in life you should never lie to are your doctor and your lawyer. Our only job is to protect you. And everything we say is protected by privilege. But fucking clients lie all the time. So you said something like my client, yada, yada, yada.

And then it came up with. Yeah. Like, your honor, opposing counsel's suggestion that my client has substance use issues is devoid of basis in fact. The suggestion that my client has any issues with alcohol, he had a DWI two weeks ago. Your Honor, the out of this suggestion that because my client is alleged in a pending matter to have consumed alcohol and driven, we are all, Your Honor, one drink away from an allegation of a DWI. What was the blood alcohol content? point two point two okay so there was a little bit of blood in your alcohol is what you're telling um your honor the reality you know your honor in real you're like we have five minute five minute recess just five minute quick five minute you know but like this is what had like i had a case where

i mean i can't even tell you how many times the client has put me in the position where i have a amazing arguments like i'm ready and they omitted some unbelievably important fact that like in and of itself just completely dismantles everything we've said, you know? Like I had a client, but I, you know, more often than not, my job is to do that to people,

like the opposite. Right. So like I do a lot of that. Exposing. Like good cross-examination is not, you know, like I love the movie a few good men, but it is not like,

did you order the code read? They're like, you're goddamn right I did. It doesn't work that way. Like that's not, isn't it true that you beat your wife? Yes, I did. It's true. It's true.

It never happens. Like, you don't have a Perry Mason moment. The tie thing was as close as I'll ever get to it. The truth is that what you have to do to do good cross-examination is get someone to commit to a set of principles and then snap their neck. And so, like, that's what I do most of the time is I make the other side fall on their face. You know, I do the, you know, and you're very involved in your child's schoolwork. Yes. And in fact, you work with their teachers all the time.

And you communicate with their teachers. Now your son's English teacher is Mrs. Henderson. Is that right? And you've communicated with Mrs. Henderson. And you're aware of the fact that he has had some difficulty in English this semester. And if you met with Mrs. Henderson about it, have you talked to her on the phone? You know, oh, yes, I've talked to her several times. Did you know Mrs. Henderson is John Henderson?

Right. John, there's no Mrs. Henderson. His English teacher is a man. Do you know that? And he identifies as a man. You know, like, and what happens is you get a person to commit to a lie so heavily, and then you snap the lie on them. Which is a joke also. That is how jokes were.

I know, right, you're turning in one direction. So you're absolutely right. Like, stand-up comedy. But, you know, I've always jokingly said that, like, all trial lawyers are just, like, closet hacks. Like, we all just want to hack. Oh, Greg Geraldo. I mean, he's like, he's a great comic and previously was a Harvard law guy. Yeah.

I think Dimitri Martin was a Yale law guy. Yeah, he's brilliant. I saw him at St. Mark's Place. I saw him at small venues many years ago and was, like, stunned at how good he was. Yeah, I think the crossover is strong. We got to get you to a show, dude. Yeah, I got to get you to come out to a show. I'd love to.

Yeah, I'd love to. This would be fun. I'm always a tremendous fan. I'm not one of those people that, like, you know, I watch someone hang glide and I go, you know, I could do that. Like, I just watch stand up and I go, like, yeah, I'm not even going to try to do that, but, man, it's a blast. Like, it's a blast to watch it. It's an art. Hearing this story that you just told me, I'd much rather bomb the way I bombed than bomb the way you bombed.

Well, just the stakes feel high. Yeah. Stakes feel high. When I bomb, people go, that guy's awful. And I go, yeah, tonight I was. But for you know, everything's relative, man. Everything's relative. Because, like, people say to me all the time, like, oh, you know, like, you do divorce.

Like, it must be so depressing. I'm like, I have a friend who's a pediatric oncologist. Yeah. That's depressing. Yeah. Like, people fucking their lives up because they, like, made a bad bet on who they married. Like, yeah, it's unfortunate. it's not tragic.

And like the Louis C.K. Bitt, he's like, every divorce is good news. Everybody. Oh, yeah. No one ever was forced to divorce. No divorce is bad news. I totally agree with him on the whole, like when people go, oh, I'm sorry. You're sorry? Have you met my ex-wife?

Trust me, I'm not sorry. Like, if we wanted to stay married, we would have. If it was a really happy marriage ended a divorce, that would be sad. Then you'd be like, no, we have to. Oh, shoot. But even that, like, that might be kind of cool. Because then you'd be like, you know, they say that only unfulfilled love can be truly romantic. You know, so like, you'd have this, like, I wish we could be together, but we can.

Yeah, like, you think if Jack lived on the Titanic, like, it rose, like, first of all, he could have fit on that door. I don't want to hear it. And second, like, after a little while, she'd have been like, all right, I'm sick of you painting your French girls. Like, you've got to get a fucking job, man. Like, at some point, she would be like, all right, I'm unimpressed. Like, let's do this. Titanic's a low story because he died. A hundred percent. How he dies while he's perfect. Like, it's the old Batman thing. You either You either die a villain or you die a hero or live long enough to be a villain. Like every story, what is Orson Welles said?

Like every story, whether a story is a comedy or a tragedy depends on when you end the story. Like you have to end the story at a certain spot. That's great. James, I could talk with you all day. You too, man. It's a blast. To stay a comedy. We're going to end it.

This is the spot. Orson Wells will be proud of us, man. It's going to turn to tragedy soon. It was an absolute pleasure. I really appreciate it, bro. Let's do this again soon. I'd love to. You're in there.

Anytime. I'm in the local. I am local. I'm calling you an Uber. It's also good to like keep me around. You know what I mean? Just the wife, you just, you know, a little problem or whatever, my card's out. And it's good for you to keep me around, you know what I mean?

That's true. It's true. You know, kids get sad. You need tickets? Kids get sad. I'd be like, hey, guys, come on, tune in. Let's get to a show. Yeah, see what Mark's got to say about all this.

Yeah. Thank you, brother. Good to see you, man.