Camp Gagnon - Evolution Expert: Meeting Aliens, Telepathy, Time Travel | Dr. Michael Masters

Episode Date: January 16, 2025

Dr. Michael Masters, Anthropology Professor and author of groundbreaking books "Identified Flying Objects," "The Extratempestrial Model," and "Revelation," joins us in the tent to explore a provocative hypothesis: Could UFOs and "aliens" actually be humans from the future? With his expertise in biological anthropology, human evolution, and the UFO phenomenon, Dr. Masters presents a multidisciplinary scientific approach to this intriguing question. From examining long-term biological and cultural trends in human evolution to analyzing well-documented cases of alleged alien encounters, we delve into the fascinating possibility that our distant descendants might be using time travel to study their own evolutionary past. WELCOME TO CAMP! Shoutout to our sponsors Morgan & Morgan and Bluechew. 🏕️ FREE NEWSLETTER HERE: https://camp.beehiiv.com/ 🏕️ Rate us and Write a Review if you love CAMP! TIMESTAMPS: 0:00 Intro 1:17 Aliens In Academia 5:07 Origins of The Extratempestrial Model 9:46 Michaels Dad’s Encounter 14:28 “Downloads” From Entities + Precognitions 23:32 Balancing Science w/ Personal Encounters 25:22 Witnessing 5 UFO’s 29:54 Pre-cognizing Wifes Wreck 34:42 Telepathic Encounters w/ Entities 46:21 Memories Being Implanted In Brain 1:02:42 Why He Would Go Through It Again 1:07:03 The Law of One 1:15:56 Are The Entities Demons & Angels? 1:19:36 UFO’s Connection To Religion 1:34:18 Recent Interactions w/ Entities 1:36:51 Asking Entities About Death 1:44:41 Application of Impossible Things 1:47:15 Purpose of Life 1:51:51 Realm of The Afterlife 1:52:56 Asking Eric About Encounter 1:57:18 Connecting Extratempestrial To Encounters 2:00:05 Evolution of Humans Into Aliens 2:13:16 Aliens Obsession With Sperm 2:19:95 UFO’s In Ancient Texts 2:21:04 Alien Time Travel Theory + Black Aliens

I think someone was just in my brain. In 2022, I saw five UFOs in my backyard. Turned around, there's five lights in the sky, perfectly spaced. They just took off. Things incrementally started to get really strained. Later that year, on October 14th, I was, I call it a mini-adduction. After I'd given a talk at the International UFO Congress, I was taken out to this balcony.

A complete stranger pulled up a chair right into my cross. knee in my crotch, face right here, told me something that I'd only thought in my head, and I'm like, how the hell could you know that? These entities speaking through him, and me speaking to them through him, say, once you know who we are, you'll know how we know that. They allowed me to ask them questions. One of my first questions from the UFO encounters that people have abductions. This is how aliens communicate. This how future humans, potentially. This is how we may all communicate in the future. I didn't have to experience at first time. hand to know that, but after having experienced it firsthand, what else is there?

I can't even recall what you had seen at the time. Dr. Mike Masters. Yes. How are you, sir? I'm doing well. How about you, Mark? I'm doing excellent. Thank you so much for joining me.

Absolutely, man. Deep in the woods. I know you had to hike a long way to get up here. Oh, I know, and I wore my little mountain man jacket, you know, camping. This is pretty much my camping gear. I love it. I thought about wearing one of those mosquito net things, like over your head with a little elastic band right there.

I thought that might be too much. Yeah, we sprayed. We got citronella. We mitigate the mosquitoes, don't work. It seems pretty good in here. As long as there's not bot flies. Oh, my goodness. Have you seen those?

That's an alien right there. Yeah, I know. It's crazy. Parasites that do the weirdest things to you. I'm lucky. We're lucky we don't have those. Yeah. And I heard you got to put like a piece of meat over the hole and then it crawls out into the meat.

Yeah, or like you suffocate it. You got to put tape over it. Yeah. And then like starve it out of oxygen. Then they come out and then you got to pop it out. It's not much different than ticks. I don't know how we got on Parasite so early here, but yeah, no man.

Not dissimilar to the top we might discuss in some ways. That's a really good point. Yeah, I guess it was a beautiful segue after all. Right? All right. You are an expert

in a couple fields that I'm fascinated by an anthropologist by expertise. You have a PhD in anthropology and you now are in the, I guess, non-human intelligence world, the UFO world, the traveler world. I don't know exactly how you. You would define it.

Visitor, traveler. I steer away from N.H.I. Because I think part of them are human. And that innately discounts the human component there. So I try to keep it general. I try to keep it vague when I talk about it, visitors, travelers. When I talk specifically about this theory, I use extra tempestrial because it's kind of a tie-in where we have extraterrestrial, which was outside of Earth, replaced the terror with the

Tomp, which is time, so outside of time. But yeah, when just speaking about the phenomenon, I try to keep it pretty open-ended. It's funny because originally it was extraterrestrial, and now it's NIH. Who knows what will be next? But, yeah, I'm with you. I think we should keep it more broad. Yeah. And I love the way that you have sort of, I guess, combined these two fields, that you

take a sort of a materialist, scientific approach to the phenomenon, but also take a, you know, very open-minded approach to the science in a certain way, that you kind of accept a lot of different data points and try to form this, I don't know, co-mingling that I find. I find really approachable and palatable for me. Oh, that's good to hear. Yeah, I mean, it's funny. It's been a work in progress for me.

Still is, I call this, you know, an evolving notion, an evolving project, because I did initially approach this with a very reductionist, materialist perspective. And have been forced to rethink that in multiple ways because of multiple things. And I see now that it's much more complex than just these physical craft and physical entities, physically putting things in people's butts and, like, observing them and taking samples. That's all a part of it. We can't discount that material aspect. There's way more involved.

Yeah. And I owe a lot of that, I think, to Jeff Kriple at Rice University, has brought me into, you know, a number of. of conferences that just blew my mind and made me wide my aperture. And then just realizing and digging deeper into this, going farther down the rabbit hole, that there's just so much related to consciousness and energy and potentially, you know, even near-death experiences, psychedelics, like anything that challenges our notions of this reality, and UFOs are certainly one of those, I think we need to pay attention to. And I kind of wonder how much overlap exists among all of those.

Absolutely. Yeah, I think that that's kind of where I'm coming from it, where as of right now, and again, I'm sort of a casual in the space. I by no means, I'm self-professed. It's a good way to be. You don't want to go too deep into this rabbit hole. It's dangerous down there. People have knives and swords.

Cutting each other up. Yeah, it's a knife fight. But I'm fascinated by all of these things and how they kind of interplay with each other. And I think there are a couple things that have happened in the last maybe five, eight years that I think have brought this topic into the main. mainstream, the Overton window is shifted, and now it is sort of in this collective consciousness, if you will. You have things like David Fravor and Grush and other, you know, high-ranking military personnel that are describing craft and non-human biologics, presenting them in front of

Congress in very significant and legitimate ways, which is not happened in the past. And I think as human beings, researchers, academics, there is sort of an impetus to kind of explain what is happening. What are these things that we're seeing that are moving in these unconventional and unpredictable ways? And then furthermore, we have, I mean, at this point, thousands, hundreds of thousands of reports across time and geography of people describing experiences that have happened to them. Some of them certainly are fraudulent. Some of them could be explained with materialist terms. But I think certainly some of them are very legitimate real experiences that have happened to these people, whether it's abductions, sightings, interactions and conversations with. with entities that are perhaps, you know, interdimensional,

inter-tempestral. And there's many different theories that we can discuss, but today I really wanna unpack the theory that you've kind of put forward, which is this idea that perhaps these things that we know as aliens, grays, whatever you wanna call them, could be future humans in some capacity.

And the way that Danny had kind of put it in, Danny Jones, a great podcaster and a friend of mine, had put it in his YouTube episode But perhaps these craft could be, you know, quasi-time machines in a way. And it's a fascinating hypothesis that I think does a lot to kind of move the ball forward and kind of puts a lot of things into context that makes sense for people. Even I think people that maybe come from a more skeptical worldview. So yeah.

I would love to know, you know, what is the best place to start as far as laying out this theory for how human beings. Sure. Well, one caveat to start with is that I don't consider. what I'm doing, I didn't put the idea forward per se. I tried in my second book in the first chapter, I tried to identify everybody I could, whether they be authors, researchers, film producers, TV writers, who also had this idea and tried to put it forward in some way.

And what I'm seeing lately is sort of a combination of all of these different efforts where a lot of people, so a good example is how natural, election was discovered at the same time by both Alfred Russell Wallace and Charles Darwin, working independently. Alfred Russell Wallace was mostly studying Beatles and Charles Darwin's all over the place. But the Galapagos is where he really made the connection with Finches and dissent with modification that grew out of what he was seeing with the different variants of those finches. But they came to the same conclusion at the same time independently.

And I think that's sort of what's been happening over the last couple decades. as people are realizing there's a lot of problems with this extra tem, no, I can't even not say my own term, it's extraterrestrial idea. And that's, I don't discount it. You know, and that's another thing I'd like to point out is I don't think this extra tempestrial model explains all of it. I get pigeonholed a lot and kind of put in this box that I'm not actually in. And I say all the time, I think this does check some of those boxes, but I don't think it explains the whole thing. So as George Knapp told me, early on, he's like, you know, this idea's been around for a while, but you sort of brought a lot of different fields together and a lot of information together to make a stronger case for it. And I think that's all I've been really trying to do. Like, it did come to me independently when I was about eight or nine years old, sort of had this, this moment of realization, this epiphany. Looking back on it, we might even use the term download or, you know, something a little more

cosmic or consciousness-based. But it occurred to me independently at that time. And then as I went deeper into this, I realized, oh, wow, a lot of other people have thought of this too. So I think it's important to acknowledge that. But yeah, outside of those two little disclosures, I guess a good place to start is probably where I first approach this from in a biological sense,

an evolutionary sense. Because that was really the crux of this download. And for people who haven't read my books, I talk about it in my first two books, because I think it's an important sort of backstory into how it got into this. But it was a situation where my biological father had seen a UFO prior to my birth.

I heard him talking about, at some friends at our house. I was kind of hanging out on the stairs. Just like, what the hell is you talking about? That's crazy. Didn't know UFOs existed. And he bought Whitley Streber's book, Communion, that happened to be facing out on the living room shelf. And I came in from our dining room into the living room and just kind of froze. And there was this, like, white light, I guess. I don't know how else to describe it, but just a moment of just, yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's happened to me a couple times since as an adult. almost like a sort of precognitive event or just that there was information that became available

in that moment when I looked at the cover of the book that has your archetypal gray alien on the front of it and I envisioned an early hominin or a chimpanzee like creature a modern human and then this archetypal gray alien and with that came the realization or the thought could they be us could these characteristics that we share among ourselves what we now call synapomorphies or derived characteristics in an evolutionary biology sense, could we share those because we're all related? The ancestor, the chimpanzee-like form is earlier. We're right in the middle and then project that forward and we have these same traits, eyes, nose, mouth, and the same place, bigger head, smaller face. We can get into the details of that if you want too. But I sort of had this sense that they

might just be us, but a future version of us, like Danny said, using that UFO, I don't think all of the UFOs, but the disc-shaped one specifically seemingly have a form consistent with the function of traveling backward in time. So putting the morphology together with the physical aspects of these craft kind of paints a picture that we should take this seriously. There's still too much variation for this to explain everything, but I do think we should look at the physical aspects of the craft, the beans, and be open to this question of whether they could be us. When your dad had the experience, did he see craft or being or both? Just the craft. The way I heard him say it, and then I asked him about it again in college

because I wanted to make sure, you know, I was eight when I heard this, so I wanted to make sure I had the details, right? But he was a veterinarian in northeast Ohio, kind of Amish country, sort of spreads from where we are all the way into western Pennsylvania. But he was out on a call, happened to have somebody with him, because a lot of times students and vet school would ride along with vets in various places. He went to Ohio State. He's actually in Ohio State with Jack Hanna, the well-known vet for the Columbus Zoo. And he's on TV all the time with his animals and stuff.

So he had someone riding along with him. So there's another witness, which adds legitimacy to the account. And he said they crested this hill and could see this glowing orb of light, like a large ball of light. And he described it. One of the things I remembered most from when I was young and when I asked him again is that it was, it wasn't emitting rays of light. You know, you look at a big street light and you can see all the little rays. This was just glowing. And he said it was, you know, off in the distance.

And all of a sudden it shot toward them. It was right in front of their truck for some period of time. I don't remember exactly how long. And all of this is very strange in Amish country. You know, you notice a big light like that because there aren't lights. So there was the initial recognition of this thing that stood out in the darkness of Amish country. But then the non-proseic thing it did was dart right to them, hover, no propulsion system or anything like that that's observable, no wings. and then went back to where it was

and then shot straight up into the sky. So that was the gist of that interaction. No beans, though, as far as I know, there's no missing time. It was just that brief interaction with this glowing light. Interesting. Now, when you had seen the cover of the book and received this download,

you had this sort of intellectual apparition where you sort of see these beings sort of connected to each other, early hominid, homo sapient, human, and then, you know, this future being kind of in this linear way. Did you feel anything emotionally? Did you feel euphoria? Did you feel excited?

Yeah, big time. So, you know, it's funny that not just this project evolving, but my perception of all of it is highly evolving too or constantly evolving, I think, is a better way of saying that. Because I've had precognition my entire life. Like, I'll dream something and then I'll see it. Sometimes it'll be two years, five years. 10 years. I dreamt about my kids before I met them. I dreamt about my wife. I recognized her the

second I saw her from these dreams about my future and the life we had to get. She was married at the time, so it was very confusing for me. But there was like this sense for a long time that that must have been a moment of conscious precognition, because I've had five of those as well. Like something I see that eventually I'm doing or is happening. But it happens constantly in my dreams. I get glimpses of the future through my dreams. So I initially thought of that as some sort of conscious precognitive moment, like a very distant one because I was eight or nine.

And I didn't start talking about this publicly until 2018, didn't start writing my first book until 2012. So obviously a big chunk of time between those. But since then, I, in learning more about what people describe in downloads, situations, having experienced things like that myself in different capacities, I don't know if it was just a precognitive moment. And part of why I say that is related to your question where I do remember seeing a bright white light. I feel like there was missing time involved. I don't know how long I was standing there, but there was like a flood of information. And yeah, it's kind of your classic

download scenario. Like it's almost like I was activated. in some way to go on to do the things that I'm doing now that we're a part of that moment. So it's sort of a linkage through time, I guess. But, and I think it's interesting, too. I mentioned this talking to Julian recently, Julian Dory, that it's interesting to me that that's also the time when the Catholic Church gives you agency to decide whether you want to join the church or not. So that whole religion is determined that age eight is when you have enough volition.

as an individual to make this choice yourself. Do confirmation and first communion and things like that. And that's when it happened to me at that age. And early on when I first started talking about this, 2018, 2019, had so many people reach out, age eight, age eight, first abduction, first download, first time, something happened to them. And ironically, you were looking at a book called communion. Yeah, yeah.

Actually, I never made that connection. That's hilarious. Interesting. Yeah. So you have this experience. you feel this sort of excitement, like was the euphoria element there? I don't want to insert that if it's not.

Yeah, the light that came, the information that came was sort of, you know that feeling when you get like the wiggly tickleys, you know, like goosebumps and you're kind of, it's like you raise up a little bit. Yeah, that was definitely a part of it. It's just interesting. I've spoken to a few people that have had experiences like this,

Kelly Chase, James Ian Doley, that both of them described being in this sort of, you know, liminal state, there's no time really receiving information, and they feel amazing. Yeah. Like, they feel like... It's euphoric for sure. Yeah, the euphoria is such an interesting element that goes along with it. Now, I've spoken to some people that have had anomalous experiences that are not as euphoric,

but it is interesting that yours was. And we definitely need to take those into account, too, for sure. But when it's an energy exchange, mostly one way, I would say. But I'm sure there's some sort of exchange in the more conventional sense of that term. Yeah, it feels like it goes through all parts of your body. Since I was, I don't even know when, but since I was young, one of the things that's funny about all of this is, like, I've had a lot of experiences throughout my life, but as I dig deeper into the more spiritual consciousness energy side of this phenomenon, I realize there's words for all this shit. And I feel like such a new learning this stuff. but I've always had the ability to like bring energy into my body and it always starts with like for this will sound crude I don't know how I was to say it but like clenching my beehole and a little kegel action yeah yeah and I don't know if we have kegel muscles but there's some equivalent in males where where it starts with that and then like I feel this rush of energy come through and just spread throughout my entire body and I'm able to do this at any point and I'd love to see it on like an eG or an fMRI or something.

But I just learned there's a word for that. It's called like Bonda something. Is it a Sanskrit word? Is this like? Yeah, yeah. Because all of this stuff has been known, you know, with mystics, like Eastern mystics. And Iermatic medicine and meditation and stuff. Yeah.

And it's cool because like, you know, there's clearly something there. We say in anthropology, we have these cultural universals, as we call them, things that exist in every society throughout the world. and they teach us more than just looking at the differences of people. Because it shows us that there's something innately important about that, something at the essence of being human. Dancing, music, community. Yeah, marriage, incest, taboos. There's a huge list of them, some sort of political system, economic system.

But when you start to find that these common characteristics exist, and there's names for them, and there's similar views about death and reincarnation and what happens to the soul when the body dies and all of these things that so many different groups have talked about and written about and discussed for thousands of years, like that's really something to pay attention to.

And I feel like a total nub because I'm realizing that a lot of experiences I've had involving this energy that I can bring into my body that starts with my B-hole is like, this is something people have been doing for ages. You know, and there's a word for it. I wish I could remember the whole word. bond of something. But like Brahma Maharta is another one I learned recently. It's this time period

where you wake up and have like sort of a more, a deeper connection with the other side, what lies beyond the veil, you know, where we come from, where we go, what people experience and your death experience, the psychedelic trips. Like, Whitley Streber has written five books in that space. And I remember the first time he talked about this at the opening of the archives of the Impossible conference. He was talking about waking up every morning between 3 and 5 a.m. But he's actually woken up. And he interacts with these beings. He interacts with this energy.

And he's using that to bring in the information from the other side from across the veil, the Akashic records or whatever you want to call it. And that started happening to me, too, over the last couple years. So there's all of these things that I think, you know, that happened to a lot of different people. Because I talked about this at Eslin. Whitley was there too. And, you know, mentioned to him that it was so helpful for me to hear him talk about this because I didn't know there was a word for it. I was pissed about it all the time because I'm waking up and I got to go to work. And my daughter was being a brat. It was teenage years, you know, so I'm fighting with her. I'm not getting sleep. But then I heard him talk about it with Kelly Chase actually on her podcast, UFO Rabbit Hole, and it just opened everything up for me. I was like, wait, this is a thing. There's a word for it, and you can use it.

You can use this thing. And talking about it at Esselim, there was another guy there who's like, wait, that happens to me. So we had a little conversation afterwards. And he's like, same thing. He's like, I started using it. I got a colleague at Montana Tech, who I had this conversation with. He started using it instead of seeing it as like, shit, you know, I'm awake now, don't have enough time to go back to sleep, I got to get up. And it's been

hugely transformational for him too. So it's like, you know, that's why I think these conversations are important because we can talk about things that normally we don't in Western society that actually may have so much impact in individual people's lives and as a society if we can just have the space to talk about it. So I really appreciate these types of conversations and yeah, the ones like at the Aslan Institute and Big Sur and what Jeff's doing with the archives at Rice University. We're going to discuss the sort of morphology of, you know, the homo sapiens and how things progress.

But on this specific topic, as it's sort of come up organically, you having these experiences, not only you having these experiences from a young age, but then you go into this field of proper academia, you know, earn a PhD. I'm curious, though, you become the chair of the department. at Montana Tech, was it difficult for you to square

these sort of strange phenomena that you're having that are sort of difficult to measure, difficult to test, difficult to replicate with this very staunch sort of scientific field that you're entrenched in?

No, because most of the weird shit didn't start happening until two years ago. So really it was just that experience when I was eight that was weird to me. but I rationalized it with just being an aspect of the precognition that I have all the time. So I didn't really have much challenging my materialist view until 2022.

So it was easy to go through. As far as what I was doing and why I was there, like that was what activated me or set me on this path. And that's a big part of why I saw it as a precognitive thing. So I would go on to do the thing that then send information back. to my eight-year-old self in that moment, create this sort of closed time-like loop of cause and effect. That's sort of how I viewed it. That's not too woo. You know, that's not too strange. So I just went through the process, the sieve that is graduate school and the biological sciences

that's very data-driven, hypothesis testing driven. So, no, there wasn't really any cognitive dissinence in that sense. However, in 2022, initially I saw five UFOs and that I don't feel like it was necessarily related to the waterfall of absolute insane shit that started happening after that, but it was clearly a point in time

that demarcated the previous staunchly held physicalist mentality with what would come after is this slow descent into a broader worldview that includes much more energetic, spiritual consciousness-based things. So do you see these UFOs simultaneously or in success? Yeah, all five at the same time. And where were you? In my backyard. Just did you have a feeling to go outside? Yeah, it was that classic, hey, go outside. So you're in your home, and just kind of taking through the whole progress. Yeah, so, um, I, I was having a nice glass of bourbon, a nightcap, if you will. It was about 1230 at night.

Kids are in bed, wives in bed. And yeah, I was standing in my kitchen in that, you know, a little voice or whatever, something compelled me to go. And we live in this steep canyon, kind of at the end of the canyon where the canyon walls are like this. But the part behind my house is sloped enough that you can walk up. But I've got a little, I'd call it a sundowner spot. Just one day on a whim, we're moving some logs around and created this like platform, like probably 100, 150 feet up the canyon wall that looks out over the East Ridge and view, like this beautiful little mountain range. So I walked up that trail that goes up toward the sundowner spot turned around and there's five lights in the sky, perfectly spaced. I can't give a distance.

I can't say how far they were, but they were low enough that they, definitely weren't stars. They were bright enough and they were close enough that I instantly realized they weren't stars, but they weren't moving. What color were there? Just kind of a whiteish, yellowish color. Um, so, and, you know, naturally I'm like, oh, that's weird. So I sit there and watch them for a second. After maybe 45 seconds to a minute, uh, one by one from right to left, they just, just took off. Like, at incredible speed, kind of leaving that like, trail behind them, you know, shooting off toward the southeast. Um, just one after another, all five of them. And then as the last one went, I was like, I think I just saw Starlink.

That's crazy. Starlink's way crazier than I ever thought it was. So I go inside, shake my wife awake. I'm like, I just saw Starlink. It's fucking nuts. Like, you wouldn't believe how crazy this is. It wasn't Starlink. It took me about six months to realize, I remember, I remember the exact moment. My daughter was getting a couple teeth pull. out at the pediatric dentist that we go to, good friends of ours. And for some reason, I was sitting there, I was like, wait a minute, that was not Starlink. There's no way. So I start frantically Googling pictures of Starlink, and it looks nothing like that. And I've seen Starlink satellite releases many, many times. You know, it's this string of lights. They're just kind of going

like this. And it's funny. I don't know if it was an aspect of my brain that wouldn't let me say, wait, this is not normal. Let's put it in a normal box and just put it away. But I was still like, I was excited about it. I was like incredibly, um, just moved by what I was seen enough that I shook my wife awake, but I said the wrong thing. I didn't say, I just saw UFOs for my first time. I was like, I saw Starlink and it's crazy. Um, or if it was one of those cases where you're sort of told to think something to sort of obscure what's actually happening. I don't know. But I still find it weird that that was my first UFO sighting,

and it took about six months to realize that it was actually UFOs. Do you think you and your dad were similar ages when you had seen UFOs? Oh, that's a great question. I mean, this was early 2022. Maybe. That's a good question. Strange. I'd be curious to know.

I could probably reverse engineer the time. for those things. Yeah, I'd be curious. Because I know it was right before I was born. And they, yeah, maybe. That's fascinated. So you see this. And then shortly thereafter, you start kind of having more kind of precognition

downloads, so to speak. Could you take me through that process as well? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know things incrementally started to get really strange. And then started to get even stranger faster. But not long after that, I was getting.

ready to go to the original archives of the Impossible Conference opening of the archives. They had people like Edwin May who ran the Stargate program, Jacques Valet, Diana Pesolco, Whitley Streber, a lot of notable people in this space, not just UFOs, but, you know, sigh, remote viewing, telepathy, things like that. about a week before I had a very intense conscious precognition moment where I um my wife had just take the kids to school under the bus stop we live in a pretty rural place so they have to ride the bus for 40 minutes I feel kind of bad about that but they don't mind and they just put their headphones on and and chill out but um she was taking the bus stop missed the bus stop because the they got there just a little late

So she follows it, gets them to the next bus stop, goes to turn around, and the snow had drifted over this big ditch. And she puts the car straight into it. Like, it was deep into this thing. But what was interesting about it is I picked up my phone and thought, oh, it's weird. My wife hasn't called me to pull her out of the ditch yet. And she's never, this is the only time then or since that she's ever been stuck in the snow. But as I'm thinking that, the phone rings. And it's my wife, hey, I'm stuck in the ditch. Can you bring the truck up and the toe straps? And it took us a solid 45 minutes to get her out, like digging and pulling. But I precognized that consciously. It wasn't a dream. I picked up my phone and I was like, oh, it's weird. And I had to go to work too. But when she did call, it was like I was already prepared for. I wasn't angry or upset. You know, even though I was going to be late for work. I just said, huh.

I still couldn't even really process that I'd already thought that before I knew that that had even happened. But this was about a week before going to that conference. And I think it's really funny because at that conference, I was on a panel with Eric Wargo who wrote three books about precognition, precognitive dreams and precognition, all of these various capacities. So I don't know, I still find it hilarious that about a week before I was on a panel with him at this conference that I had one of the most intense conscious pre-cognition moments of my life.

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Now let's get back to the show after the short disclaimer. But also around that time, I was getting all of our ski equipment ready, because we were going to go out and hit the slopes that weekend, I believe. So I was just going through all of our equipment, you know, make sure the bindings are set up for the boots and everything that we need is in there. Because when you have kids and you go skiing, it's an absolute nightmare. And nobody else knows enough about it to make sure everything is there. you know, so I check, check, check, check.

So I'm doing that and I step outside of the garage and look up at this light in my neighbor's yard, and all of a sudden I am hearing words. Like it's talking to me or something is talking to me through this light. And I, it was, you know, I've never just really heard words. Like there's a couple times that I have, but they were always like, kind of quiet and, you know, like guiding sorts of things that you can separate from your internal monologue. I have a very, very active internal dialogue. But there's been times where I will hear a voice, and I know we're not supposed to say that because, you know, everybody's schizophrenic

that hears voices. And it's not like it's all the time or I'm dancing around in the street saying things. It's not like that. But it's different enough for my internal monologue that I know it's not me. And that's what I heard. And then at that moment, it was like way more intense than any of the little subtle voices I heard. And so I responded.

What did you hear? What were the first words? I can't remember, to be honest. I wish I could. But it was something that got my attention. And I'm staring at this light. And you know, one thing, I don't know if I've ever mentioned this,

but one thing that I think is really important because a lot of things that have happened since have involved. light. If communication, feelings, energy, and what's really interesting is that growing up as a kid in a fundamentalist Christian household, we were told not to look at the light, you know, divert thine eyes. And for some reason around that time, I started, like, it might have been, that might have

been the first time. I looked right at the light, like stared straight into it. And this something happened. Some connection was made because there was a communication that took place. I responded, next thing I know, I'm having a conversation with some sort of entity through this light. And what time of day was this? It was probably around 10, 30, or 11 at night. Okay.

And it's, yeah, it's just this big ass security light in my neighbor's yard. It's still there. So you identified what the light was. Yeah, it's just a big pole with the light on it. It's always there. You know, and a lot of other things have happened involving this. I had a filmmaker friend, and Darren King was at my house one time. And, like, you know, I've talked about this enough, and it's been instrumental enough in the early stages of sort of reshaping my perception.

My buddy's like, oh, is that your godlight over there? I was like, if we're going to call it that, sure. But I wasn't talking to God. I don't know what it was. and I didn't believe that it was real. I went back inside. I was like, I think I just talked to a light, but nope, that's just all in my head. It's all in my imagination.

And you stayed in your physical body the whole time? Yeah, yeah, right there in the body. And what was this conversation? It was mostly centered around anxieties I was having related to the travel I was doing. Like I said, that opening of the archives of the Impossible conference was coming up in one or two weeks. I don't remember exactly when. And I was really concerned about the safety of my family and just, you know, having to leave them because I was doing a lot of conferences, a lot of TV shoots. And I just had this sort of anxiety about the travel and leaving

them and, you know, wanting to be there for my kids and just not knowing how to circle the square. So that's the main thing that stood out to me is will my family be okay? Will my kids be okay with my house and my, you know, home, uh, BRA. It was very anxiety driven. It's almost like it was an intervention of sorts, you know, like, hey, chill, it's, it's going to be fine, you know, just go do the stuff, whatever, it's cool. And so like I said, I wrote that off, um, just as a figment of my imagination, overactive, you know, internal monologue, even though it was clear it wasn't. Like, I was legit having a conversation back and forth telepathically with the, light is the medium of exchange. And the reason I know it was not a fig of my imagination

is later that year on October 14th, 2022, I was, I call it a mini-abduction. And I've talked about this in some other places you're aware, because you said you listened to a couple of these podcasts, too. But I was taken out to this balcony after I'd given a talk at the International UFO Congress and Mesa, Arizona, Phoenix. And two individuals took me, one, actually speaking of that root chakra or the Bonda thing, this complete stranger, someone I did not know it all. I know him now, I know him quite well now. A complete stranger pulled up a chair like right into my crotch, knee in my crotch,

face right here, told me something that I'd only thought in my head. there's no way he could have known because I don't know this person. And even if I did, how could he know something I'm thinking? Like he just walks up to you and says, comes, yeah, I was sitting in this chair, he comes up, pulls this chair and tells me something that was only a thought in my head. And I'm like, how the hell could you know that? Um, they, through him, say, once you know who we are, you'll know how we know that.

And telepathically, I asked future humans. And they didn't answer. They just kind of moved on and said, so you know how we know that. okay, yeah, kind of nodded. And then from that point on, the conversation initially vocally exchanged, you know, vocalizations, mouth words, probably use a better word for that. We talked not him, not with him, but these entities speaking through him and me speaking to them through him, along with this woman who's also involved in this, standing to my left, who initially took me there so this Eric person could come and do what they needed to do with

these two individuals in physical form on this planet here with us. So they could do those things. But the reason I know that initial light conversation was real is because they allowed me to ask them questions. One of my first questions, still having those same anxieties from back in March before this conference was, will my family be okay throughout all of this? Not even just the traveling, but other things that I feel are related to all of the insanity of this phenomenon and consciousness and a conscious shift

and this thing that everyone feels as coming, as experiencers, and even non-experiencers, I think, are starting to feel this as well. But I specifically asked, will my family be okay? And they said through him, we already talked about that. before you went to the conference at Rice University.

And it made this connection to me that was like, oh, fuck, that was real. That wasn't just a figment of my imagination. And it was these same entities that I'm talking to now that I was talking to then. So it was like a lot of other things happened in that moment. But as far as what we were talking about initially with, you know, how did I deal with going through the academic program and the process where you're beat into this materialist mentality when these weird things are happening. All of these things happened much more recently in the last two years, two and a half years. So I didn't have to deal with that, but since these

moments of interaction that have forced me to reconceptualize ego, reconceptualizes physical reality, reconceptualized telepathy, which now people are starting to talk about a lot, so the most popular podcast in the world right now is the telepathy tapes, which I think is awesome. You know, and they did it so well. I'm only about halfway through it. So I'm a friend Jesse Michael's just made an episode about it, so I might cheat a little bit and watch that first. It's amazing. You saw it? Yeah, not Jesse's, but I listened to the whole series. Kai Dickens is a... I know, and my wife did too. I was like, we need to listen to this. I know you would like this because she's she's always been like the spiritual enlightened person and i was just

some dumb little reductionist you know it was like you know okay and and it it wasn't that i dismissed it i just didn't understand it you know and we tend to fear or ignore what we don't understand and that's how it was like i i see this you know beautiful human being my wife who like has such an interesting worldview but i just couldn't understand what it was i couldn't connect to it And we have this joke that I'm evolving into her, not just because of this for a lot of reasons. I'm just kind of turning into her, which is great because I was kind of a shithead before. So it's like, after this experience, it really forced me into a new framework for conceptualizing reality that moved from being conventional to much more obscure.

And I'm still trying to figure all of this out. and I don't have an answer as to who or what was communicating with me through that light and through Eric and Heidi on that balcony. I've tried to read things, listen to things, just to get a sense of, you know, what is this that exists beyond our normal everyday lives? Like, telepathy is real, you know? I didn't need to experience that to know that because I'd take the work of people like Dean Radin, ions and other people who do this and test it scientifically and adhere to the scientific method

and doing so. I know that's real. I know that's real from UFO encounters that people have abductions. This is how aliens communicate. This is how future humans potentially. This is how we may all communicate in the future. So I didn't have to experience it firsthand to know that. But after having experienced it firsthand, there's no question in my mind.

And then it's like, it's this rabbit hole, this cliche, where it's like, what else is there? You know, and I think a lot of people are experiencing this right now with the UFO in general. Like, oh, wait, UFOs are real. What else is out there? What else don't we know about? What else has been kept from us? Or we just weren't quite at a place with our collective consciousness to be able to understand about this universe. that we live in or this reality being much broader than we we thought I'm sorry that's

probably a way longer answer than you wanted but no that's that's remarkable it ties in a couple different things we were talking about earlier so of course no if I were to be observing you three speaking on the balcony or you know quote unquote a lot of people were a lot of people were watching us and those people just said oh you three were staring at each other yeah well initially like I said we were talking with our voices um there was nobody in there then at that time. Hypothetically, if I were to be there, it would just be you guys staring at each other,

looking at the ground, like what was the... Well, so I, Eric, who pulled up the chair, face right here, eyes like this, knee in the crotch. And somebody pointed out to me later that maybe that was an aspect of... Because they specifically said through him,

because that was my initial thing. It was like, who the fuck is this guy? know, and why is he up in my shit? I'm very much on the fight side of fighter flight. Yeah, you don't strike me as sort of a passive. No, no. And if somebody does that to you, you kind of... It was good.

Yeah, so this complete stranger, who we'd been waiting on for 20 minutes. Like, Heidi took me up there. I know now that Heidi wasn't Heidi. She had already been co-opted and took me up to this room. It's this VIP room and this hotel where we had a little... like meet and greet party before and then everybody went down to a Halloween party that was happening in the main area where all the talks are given and the panels and stuff. So she took me up there initially and then kept saying, uh, my friend Eric's coming. He really wants to talk to you. No idea who

Eric is. Eventually Eric does come. Complete stranger. Knee in the crotch. Face right here. But that was um, the initial weird thing. Even prior to them saying, um, The thought that I had, which was specifically, we know you've been thinking about quitting lately because I was, but I just thought that about a week before this conference. I never told anybody. I never said that out loud, just a thought in my head. Even before that weirdness, they said through him, we know this makes you uncomfortable, or we know something about what they were doing.

Like, we know this makes you angry or something, but we need to be this close for this. to work. And I didn't know what the hell that meant. And it didn't make sense, but it didn't matter because that anger and me about to throat punch this dude feeling that I had was just like washed away. I felt like from top to bottom just like washed away. I'm like, all right, whatever, strangers guys knee in my dick. Um, so what eventually happened though to answer your question about what people would see is that, yeah, we were communicating vocally. There was a question and answer session. Toward the end of that, people did start to come back to that room

because it was the common meeting place where the after party would be. And Travis Walton was there with this guitar and can pass it around and play music. But as people were coming in, like we could see them, I wasn't really able to turn my head. I couldn't just go like this. Like I was kind of locked in to this Eric person. eyes like eyes wide open just straight ahead but like right here um and but at some point three women did come out because they were concerned they're like what the hell's going on with masters out there

on the balcony like i have friends in this community i know a lot of people in this community and they could see us and it must have looked very strange because i think at that point we weren't talking like it that was after the conversation moved from being um vocalized to telepathic. And what's really interesting, another thing, speaking of chakras, is that I felt, and I've described this before, even before realizing what some of these terms might be, but I remember feeling like I was elevated just above my body. And there's a word for that, the crown chakra. And that makes a lot of sense, because that is like this gateway between the spiritual and physical world. You know, you've got the violet, the indigo, ray areas. And I felt like we were

Me, at least I can't speak for them, but I felt like I was sitting right on top of my head. And that whole conversation was instant, telepathic information exchanged without moving our mouths. And that probably did look weird as shit to the people inside. They probably's tense. I mean, two guys just facing off. Like, yeah, but not moving and not talking to each other. It must have looked very strange. And then Heidi has her hand on my shoulder right here just standing next to me.

I would have been like, what the fuck's going on out there, you know? And three women did come out. I can't tell you who they were because it was like, it was. able to turn my head, but they came out in the balcony to check on me, I found out later, and Eric, or them through Eric, said, can you close the door behind you? All three turned, walked inside, and closed the door. Nobody came back out the whole time. But by the time all of this was over, there were probably about 15 people inside. But it got really weird, at least from my point of view, because it's not something I knew was possible, because they wanted to put, and this is why they said initially, we need to be this close for this to work.

And this to loop back, again, this is probably more information than was needed, but to loop back to why I think they said that based on these chakras is in the root chakra, that place where the Bonda thing happens, where I sort of stop the energy, pull it down from above. I think that was maybe the knee or that's what somebody pointed out to me later is why that needed to be there to make this sort of connection, this full connection between theirs and my chakras or energy centers. And honestly, still to this day, I catch myself saying this stuff and I'm like, what the fuck happened to me? You know, like what are these words coming out of my mouth? Because it sounds insane, you know, to my wife it wouldn't and hasn't for a long time because she's always thought this way. This is all pretty recent for me. But as people say stuff like that, and I think about it, I'm like, wait, yeah, that does make sense. It's like this plugging that energy there.

And this will make sense in a second because why they were actually there in addition to the mini intervention, you know, please don't stop doing this yet. We know you've been thinking about quitting. Please don't do that. is that they said, we need to put three things in your brain for some future times. Are you okay with that? And off-camera we were talking about free will, and there was a very strong sense that I had volition,

and I had free will in that moment and could say, no, that's just too weird. I draw the line there. But they explained exactly what would happen. They said my eyes would go black, even though they're still wide open, they go black from top to bottom, and there would be, I would see and feel information coming in my brain, but I wouldn't have access to it.

I wouldn't remember it, and I wouldn't be able to remember it. Are you okay with that? And I said, yes, I agreed. And it kind of makes sense with this whole chakra thing, because they just dumped incredibly fast-rate all of this information. Like my eyes were open, but everything was black. but in that moment I could see these bright colors like streaming colors, mostly blue and purple and a little bit of red,

just streaming into my brain. And I could see it at the time. And Heidi could see it too. She's not in my brain. She's standing next to me, but she's watching all of that same information, which again makes me think there's some sort of crown chakra connection among the three of us with these entities in this space.

And we're just the physical forms that are facilitating disinformation. transmission, collectively, like those two together. Because her rule was somehow important too. Like Eric mostly did the talking and, you know, the interaction. He's the one that they're using to shoot this information into my brain. But she could see it too. And every now and then she'd say, did you get that?

Did you see that? And I could see it. Like, I could see what it was. Like actual things in physical reality that are apparently going to happen, according to them. And I could see it. And she would say, did you get that? Did you see that?

And I'd go, uh-huh, uh-huh. And I don't know how long this went on. There was missing time, lost time, whatever you want to call it. But I do remember registering that. And then it got locked away and poof gone. Like I have no ability to access it. And you can't even recall what you had seen at the time. I have one little piece that I remember consciously.

one of the times she said or they said through her, did you get that? Did you see that? Like just one little, just tiny little piece. It's just a building. It's a brown building. That's all half. And it was apparently three things for three different times. They said three things.

I don't remember how exactly it's supposed to be partitioned out. But yeah, I don't know how long this went on. It was intense. Very, very intense. But when it was over and they released me from this sort of mesmerized state, it just reversed. Like light returned from bottom to top. And I was able to stand up. Very, like, disoriented.

My head was very heavy. Like, I could barely even lift my head. But I walked through that room and now the room's full of people. So, yeah, there must have been a good number of people that watched us probably. And I've talked to one of them. them since and they were all like you know we were worried about you we didn't know what was happening um and it probably did look very strange um do you have a sense that the download was cataclysmic or that it was some in some way negative or was it positive like was there any emotional state

connected to the data yeah well that's where it gets tricky um because because what happened is that after after they released me i walked through this room a woman probably one of of the ones that came out in the first place, put her hand on my arm and said, are you okay? And I just kind of go, uh-huh. Like, I couldn't even lift my head to see who it was. And I've asked a couple people, they're like, no, that wasn't me. So I still don't know who it was. But I'm almost positive. It was one of the three women that came out and then was forced to go back inside. But a funny thing that I didn't realize, because I was in a very fucked up state, like after this was over, as far as like my connection with physical reality. So I guess I walked out of the

this room and the two organizers, Alejandro Rojas and Karen, were apparently coming down the hallway to go into that room, dressed in their tuxedoes and nice dress. And I guess I saw them. I didn't, I didn't remember this until about eight months later when I had dinner with them in Phoenix after a talk that I gave. And I was telling them this story. And they were like, oh, that makes so much sense. We saw you when you were leaving the room, because my room was about four or five doors down on the same floor, the fourth floor of this building.

And I guess I came out still in this deist mesmerized state. And they just looked at me like, are you okay? They thought I was drunk or something. I had one beer the entire night, no drugs, no alcohol, other than that one beer. And I guess they looked at me and said, are you okay? And I, according to them, I said, I think someone was just in my brain,

which was very true. Went down, four doors down, went into my room, laid back with my clothes still on, shoes on the floor, passed out for like 12 or 13 hours, woke up into your question, just started crying uncontrollably. And this is where the debate comes in because I don't know why I was crying and couldn't stop crying. Personally, I think it was some sort of morphological thing. I think something happened in my brain, to my brain, where it was just completely decimated.

You know, like, this information came in and just morphed something and caused this physiological response that came out as crying. Or I was telling this story, this came out, I guess I can talk about it, but I was on this road trip with George Knapp and the executive producer of this show called Investigation Alien that came out on Netflix last month, two months ago. I think it was November. And I'm, you know, they're talking about Jesse's docco and like, oh yeah, that was interesting. You know, I saw you in that. It was interesting your part. And I thought they were talking about the one that had just come out where I tell this story for the first time, which was very hard for me, because it's still hard to

talk about this sometimes. But it turns out they were talking about the one that he did with Grush that I had a little cameo in. And so I was like, yeah, you know, that was a crazy event on the balcony and I'm still trying to process that. And they're both like, wait, what? Because they were talking about my little part and the Grush one. And so I'm relaying this story because we're traveling between like Capitol Reef and

some other petroglyph site in Utah. And so we had a good amount of time. It was dark. So I told them the whole story, start to finish. And the version I just told you is the gist of it, but there's some details in there, too, that I left out for time. But I told the whole thing, because we didn't have anything else to do. And George, he asked that question. He was like, do you think your uncontrolled crying was a response to what you saw?

And again, it probably didn't need to take that long for me. to answer that very simple question, but I feel like there was some parts in between that were important backstory. And I said, damn, I don't know. I never thought about that. That's a really good question. So did my conscious memory

in that brief moment where I was allowed to see what was going in, see something that made me very, very fucking sad? Or was it a physiological response to being brain? in this way and having that information coming fast. Like there was a sense of urgency, you know, Eric will tell you too. Eric Mitchell's his name.

And he's starting to talk about this stuff publicly too. He'll tell you that the dial was cranked up. Like shit was getting forced into my brain very, very, very fast. And he's like, you took it. It was amazing. I don't know how you did that. I didn't really do anything. I just sat there and, you know, I had shit shot into my brain.

but it could be either one. I don't know. I could see it being a physiological response. I could see it being an emotional response to what my conscious mind saw in that short moment or some combination of the two. But I had lunch with Leslie Kane not too long. Actually last December after Jay and James in Dolly's conference, the inquiry into anomalous events, I think is what it's called. But I was having lunch with Leslie, and we were talking about this same thing. I told her what George had said, because we just filmed this daco about a month before, and I pitched that hypothesis to her, and she's like, I don't know. I don't know about that. So when George said it, I was like, yeah, maybe, you know, that makes sense. And then Leslie and I talked about it more, and she had some good arguments for maybe why it wasn't. It was more of a physiological response.

Overly long response to a simple question. I don't know. I could see it going either way. Hmm. I wouldn't call it a simple question. I think this is a very borderline traumatic thing that had happened regardless. At the time, it was extremely traumatic. Yeah. And I'm curious, why did you accept the transmission?

And knowing what you know now, would you have accepted it again? Absolutely. I did that willingly and would do it again willingly because they did a fantastic job. initially it was very shocking

and in fact like I'd known Heidi for three years not well you know but I did a talk at this conference three years previous we you know I met her I liked her she plays music I play music so kind of bonded over that met her daughter and her husband um so my wife when I told her about all this

she's like it's kind of fucked up that Heidi didn't warn you about this, that she wasn't like, hey, this is about to happen to you. This Eric guy's going to come and decimate your cerebrum. But I realized later, a year later, when I was finally able to reach out to Heidi and be like, hey, you remember that night on the balcony? She doesn't remember any of it. She doesn't even remember taking me up there. That's why I say Heidi wasn't Heidi when she was like, you can't go because my friend Eric wants to talk to you. Who's Eric? Doesn't matter. He's a friend of mine. You'll like him. That's what she kept saying over and over. But it wasn't. her, you know?

But you couldn't tell that. No, I had no idea. I just assumed I was hanging out with Heidi and she was being mean. Wouldn't let me leave. And does Eric remember? Yes. So that's what's interesting about this is there's different levels of this. There's a term for it called deep trance mediumship.

And when you're in a deep trance, so for instance, like Nora Roberts, who channeled the Seth material or Carla Ruckert who channeled raw in the raw contact, the law of one. Deep trance mediumship. They're not there. Their voice is speaking words of these entities, Seth and the previous and Raw and the latter. But they're not consciously aware of what's happening. That was Heidi.

She was completely gone. Eric, however, he came in, knew he was supposed to come this room because Heidi, them through Heidi, brought him up. They had never hung out face to face. I found that out later, too. They knew each other. They kind of talked from,

time to time online through email, but they had never hung out. But she, they brought him there for this thing. And I'm getting to your question. I'm sorry. There's so many things that pop into my head. The details I think are necessary. So, so Eric, this stranger to me comes up and it was very shocking initially when somebody knows your thoughts. A complete stranger knows your intimate thoughts that you never articulated out loud. That was the initial like, oh shit, what the fuck's going on? And from that point on, it was a slow sort of opening up of my psyche. And at some point, I was allowed to remember.

I was allowed to see past the veil. And I think it was an important part of them wanting to convince me that I should keep doing this because I agreed to do this even prior to entering this body. And I know that sounds insane. And a lot of people listening this will probably be like, what the fuck is this guy talking about?

This is the dumbest thing ever heard. But speaking of Carla Ruckert and the raw material, the law, the contact, the law of one... Yeah, I've looked into this recently. It's a fascinating case. It's so amazing. It's been so therapeutic for me. so helpful for me because so much of what said through Carla Ruckert from Rowe, who's a social mind

complex, it's not like one person. You know, Seth in the Seth material, is a person-ish, you know, an energy being of sorts. Raw is a social mind complex. It's a lot of different experiences of people who lived in this physical space along with energy entities in the place where I have come to believe we all come from and we all go when we die. Could you explain the law of one experience and those tapes that exist relating to Raw? Yeah, so I think it was back in the late 70s, early 80s. Carla Ruckert and another fella I can never remember his name, realized they were able to make contact with,

actually the Seth material was the first. one. So you have the situation where, and I was just listening to this recently, where Nora Roberts is doing a Ouija board and they're asking questions and it got to the point where they're like, wait, there's something else happening here. Like these are too specific. This is too right. And it got to the point where she is answering the questions the second they asked them, but then realizing it's not her, there's something speaking through her. And that was one of the first instances. I think this was in the 60s.

And it really, it was transformational for people in society as a whole because now we realize, wait, there's a way to contact the, and it wasn't necessarily new to that time. You had people like, you know, the Stanford Research Institute and the societal for psychical, society for psychical research in the 80s, which Alfred Russell. so Wallace was a part of. So Frederick Meyer was part of this group. In the 80s, they were interested in telepathy. I think he might be the person that coined the term telepathy.

No, that's not right. Actually, maybe it was. In any case, I recommend Jeff Kreppel's book, Authors of the Impossible, he talks about this society and Frederick Meyer's contribution. There's also a chapter about Jacques Valet in there. Great book, but it highlights sort of, of the fact that these things have been happening and people have been studying them. However, the Seth material and the realization that you could communicate with the other side

really started to enter the cultural zeitgeist around the 60s with the channeling of Seth. And then, not long after that was Carla Ruckert and the raw material. But so the process that she lays down, I highly recommend everybody read these series of books because it was really instrumental for me because I was so pissed off for a while and just caught in this tornado of cognitive dissonance and just a lack of understanding of physical reality. But this book has added some context. It doesn't answer any questions, but it adds a lot of important context related to what our relationship is in these physical bodies. and this physical reality with a much more fundamental root source consciousness existence, which we likely all come from and is where we go in various levels of that once we leave this physical vessel. This is sort of an illusion that we're living in. And I was really pissed

off about this question for about three months, not long after this interaction on the balcony, because I saw that world. I was brought into that. When I was lifted out of my body to have this conversation and to interact with these entities in their world almost as an out-of-body experience,

I would go as far as to say it was an out-of-body experience. I was shown and existed in that space despite having this body. And you ask anybody that's had an out-of-body experience, astral travel, near-death experience, everything's, really different, you know? So to answer your question, the reason I agreed to it and would agree to it

is I was allowed to remember. I was allowed to look past the river of forgetting that we all walk across when we're born into these bodies because we have to. I've found it's very hard to have one foot in both realities. We need to cleanse ourselves of the knowledge of what exists outside of this illusion. And we do that when we're born. But, and of course, according to the raw material, the law of one, one of the main things we're supposed to do is exactly this, what you and I are doing right now, is seek answer, seek information, just seek knowledge about this existence and about that existence. And in that moment, starting with a shock of how do you know my thoughts, why is your knee in my dick, from that point on, it was this slow

opening up a movement into the space above the crown chakra, if you will, where I saw and remembered everything for that period of time. And I liken it to a heavy acid dose or, you know, what'd you call a hero dose of mushrooms, where like you're blasted into this other reality or the veil comes down for you for a temporary period of time. But when you come back in your body, you're like, wow, that's the most transformational thing. Can't believe I had all of these thoughts. I saw everything. I talked to God.

You can't bring that back with you, you know? So in that moment, though, I was allowed to remember, and I was like, oh, shit, I know them. I know them well. Of course you can do this. Why was I being a little bitch in the first place, you know? Like, in that moment, that's how I felt. And I was like, yes, of course, I agree to this. There was still the free will.

And I highly recommend the raw material, because, obviously, off camera talking about this question of free will has a huge part of that book the law of one like they talk about free will a lot that's like the first rule you know like the the prime directive in star trek like don't interfere with the society civilizations development that's the first rule and interacting across the veil and even with UFOs is do not impinge on free will everyone has the ability to choose they have agency and i was given that too they said do you agree agree to this. Can we black your eyes out and brain you for a little while? And I was like, yes, because I remembered. I remembered that I had agreed to this and I was just being a turd

because of all of the stuff that was difficult for me in this physical reality and still is. You know, like my flight into LaGuardia last night was garbage. We barely made it, you know, but, but like that runway LaGuardia was a little short. Yeah, you kind of, you hit the ground pretty good. Three times. It took us three times to land. Really? We were right. You know, You know, you go over those buildings and Home Depot. Endeavour. And then the water and then straight up again, twice. Wow.

That's a little sketch. Yeah. And everybody's looking each other. They're like, are we good? We're good. Get on the ground? We're good. Are we cool here?

That's good. But like, you know, shit like that. Like, it sucks. You know, just it's work. You know, it's, it's, I love these conversations. We were talking about this off camera too. Like, this is why I do it. But it's also important because so many people have had so many experiences.

And I get emails every. single day, like, thank you for just talking about this. And it was hard for me. It took me a year and I knew Jesse would want to. He already knew about it because I told him a year early, like right after it happened and just unloaded because I was just a mess. And he happened to have me down to L.A. during the time I was a mess. And I had to tell somebody, so I unloaded all this shit off camera. But then he invited me down to finish this DACO project. And yeah, I knew he'd want to talk about it. didn't know if I could, sat on my balcony and cried for like an hour, just like, can I even do this? You know, but it's important because this is real. It's a very real aspect of all of our

existences. And if we don't talk about it, one, that's not seeking, you know, two, there's so much more beyond this physical illusion that is so important to our existence as energetic, spiritual beings that we should absolutely be talking about. And I think everybody should. And it's hard. You know, you wouldn't believe how many people I know in this UFO community who have had very similar experiences to what I just described,

but they won't talk about it. Interesting. And I understand, you know, they're in faculty positions. They're in esteemed research positions. The secret college, so to expect. Yeah. Yeah.

And I absolutely get it. I just, I don't know. I feel that whatever shit I get, and I do get a lot of shit from people, especially on Twitter, go figure. It is worth it because this is real, you know, and we should all be talking about it. Did you get the sense that the entity or entities were benevolent? Oh, extremely. They were seeking the goodness of mankind. They were trying to help in some capacity.

Yeah, no, absolutely. There's no question of my mind, which is another reason I agreed. I wouldn't want to be a part of something. And it's funny because after I talked to this with George on that road trip, his producer reached out to me on my way back saying, hey, George, I'd like to have you on coast to coast a.m. for four hours. He's like, he never does four hours of the same guests. You should think of this as an honor. I was like, okay, that's nice, but I'm going to be in New York on Eastern Time. So we're talking about one to five in the morning for this show or 12 to four or whatever it was. But, you know, I was, that was. That was the first time we really went deep on it. Because George knew the whole story from this road trip. He knew what to ask. And he's an amazing journalist.

He's an amazing, just interviewer in general. So the first two hours, you know, we talked about the theory, which I apologize, we haven't even gotten to. No, no, I think it'll tie in better knowing it's on the background. And then the last two hours was just this crazy shit with question and answer. And of course, the main thing, this was demonic. These were demons. You know, they know the future.

I'm like, bro, the angel Gabriel came to Mary and said, hey, you're going to have a baby. It's going to be the son of God. That's the same damn thing. You don't consider the archangel Gabriel demon. So, like, why is it that we cherry pick and say, well, these must be demons or Eric's a demon? Eric didn't. It wasn't even him.

You know, I was communicating with entities that transcend all of us, but that's still the default. People don't understand that. They say, oh, that must be demonic. And I grew up with that. You know, my dad, my biological father would always say these UFOs are demons trying to lead you away from God and all this shit. And it's like, sure, okay, if you want to believe that, that's fine. But what I know and what I saw and what I felt during this intense interaction was extreme benevolence and unconditional love.

It was your classic Ryan Gosling on Saturday Night Live, you know, like just love and light and I felt so connected to the universe. Then you got Kate McKinnon. Like, they shove shit on my head. Horrible. But no, like, in that moment, it was what people feel near-death experiences. It was your classic love and light situation. What's up, guys?

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the woods and we were cold and everyone was raining and I pitched a tent with the the help of Blue Chew and everyone gathered under it. And we were safe and it saved me and a lot of lonely people. So if you're interested in Blue Chew, here's how you get it. You're going to go to BluHu.com and use the promo code Gagnon. That's right. Gagg, N-O-N. It's kind of funny. Gagnon has the promo code. I don't know why exactly, but it is funny. And you're going to receive your first month for free. That's right. Blu-Chom. Use the promo code Gagnon. Check it out. Bluechoo. Let's get back to the show. Yeah, it's interesting. The free will component, I think, is fascinating as well. because it is so integral to specifically Catholicism,

the religion I was raised in, but I think many modern religions sort of have this underpinning of free will and agency as we sort of interact with God, that we are willingly choosing God. And, you know, you look at the fall of Adam, it couldn't have been predestined or preordained because why would, you know, a benevolent creator create something that was, you know,

sort of bound to fail? Perhaps an omniscient God would know this, but isn't necessarily catalyzing it to happen but is instead giving agency to the creation. And then even with the apparition of Gabriel to the blessed mother Mary saying, you will carry the Savior of the University of Jesus Christ into existence, it's always pointed out to me,

at least growing up Catholic, that Mary had agency. If you reread the scripture, she says, you know, do as that will, like she accepts the will of God to let this thing occur. Yeah. And still with future knowledge being conveyed, like this is what will have. Do you accept this?

And she did. Yeah. Yeah. And the free will component is always important because people try to, you know, put, you know, sexual violence into the story, which is, I think, far from the case. And I think, you know, potentially blasphemous. But I think so, too. Speaking of blasphemy, I wrote another book, a third book that highlights that scenario, that story in a very heretical way, but a very comical way. It's satire. It's funny, but in that, Mary has absolute agency. She's the protagonist.

She has control over everything. It's very sexual. In fact, I hired two actors to read this book because I wanted to make an audio book, but I can't do that because it's fiction. And there's certain characters. They signed on to it. They were working their way through it. They get to that section of the book.

And I get a phone call, half hour conversation, half hour conversation, Half hour into it, dude's like, hey, just so you know, we can't do this project anymore. I'm like, why? You know, it's like, we're Christian. I'm like, so what? You know, I was raised Christian. I appreciate Christianity. The book is about Jesus's teachings and how important they are and how we should all follow them

because it's some, you know, really instructional information that is good for everyone. if we actually follow the teachings of Jesus. He's like, yeah, yeah, get all that. But the way you wrote Mary's character can't be a part of that. Sorry. And if people read the book, they'll see why. But it was never anything critical about her. It liberated her.

Because I feel like a lot of the ways this story's been retold over time sort of takes away from the role of women. It's highly subjugated. Mary Magdalene is a great example, you know, or the women that Jesus interacted with in various capacities that were prostitutes or whatever. I think that's unfortunate, so I sort of flipped the script and brought the power back to the women and Mary in this book. Because, yeah, I completely agree with you. Because I think we oftentimes will take something like that and interpret it however we want. But you're right, like the original scriptures give her agency in that decision.

Yeah, it's just an interesting connection that I'm kind of making the moment. But I'm curious, do you think the entities have a familiarity with the teachings of Christ? Like, do you think, like, if you could ask them hypothetically, I don't even know if this is an answerable question. I'm curious what their perception of Christ would be. Yeah, I do. And I think it's tied in with UFO phenomenon, too. I think it's all the same thing. I think these entities are probably just a very evolved form of consciousness

that exists all around us that likely is tied to God in the strict sense of the word. And again, they talk about that in the law of one a lot, that it was the initial thought. There's an infinite creator, and that consciousness imbues everything. And it started with light. It started with light, let there be light, which I think is, if not consciousness itself, the transmission or medium with which consciousness is exchanged. I don't think it's any coincidence that that light in my neighbor's yard was the initial point of contact

or that we have terms like enlightenment or seeking the light or the very first thing that was written is let there be light. You know, I think light is very much instrumental to all of this. And then from that grew the smaller things that cohesed into bigger things. And then you have these logos that allow things to unfold in different ways, like you were talking about with, you know, localized agency, free will. You create a space for these things to develop and they develop however they're going to based on their own choice. That's what they talk about in that book over and over. I think you really enjoy it. It's just a really different perspective.

that has helped me a lot. But yeah, these entities are interesting with regard to the Jesus question too because one of the first case studies in my second book, the extrater tempestrial model, is this minor named Udo Orteina. He was a Dutch or German minor that came over working actually not far from where I live in Montana. And he came across this craft. They took him inside. They showed him everything.

They taught him how it worked. He didn't really understand it all, but it involved electromagnetism and counter-rotating flywheels. And he wrote to John Glenn and explained all of this stuff because he was so struck by like how advanced it was and how he thought, you know, this could help America if we had access to information about this technology. But I bring it up because Warren Aston, the guy who really went deep into his story, one of the things that stuck out to him, most is that he asked specifically. He was like, so do you guys believe in Jesus or, you know, religion or whatever? And, and what's interesting is he said that that's the one question they wouldn't answer. It's the one thing that they would not respond to him about or give him an answer to is the question of Jesus. And that, I think, speaks volumes because why, you know, they'll show

them the craft, they'll show them where they eat and poop and do everything else, but they won't answer questions about Jesus and about religion. And I can't help but wonder if a lot of things, and others have wondered this too. Diana Pesolka's written and talked about this a lot, where a lot of things that we see in these religious texts, you just did a whole damn podcast about this with like the ways that UFOs have worked their way into. Right, and how people interpret religious scripture. Yeah, I was listening to that on the plane last night. Oh, nice.

The one about the Ark of the Covenant and Isaiah and Ezekiel. Yeah. And I think that's important because if we do take these stories literally, if we interpret the Bible literally, there's a lot of UFO shit in there. Mm-hmm. You know, the way people levitate, the way there's radiation burns, you know, the guy that got hit in the hand. I can't remember his name right now.

Mm-hmm. The UFOs that are seeing all of this religious imagery, the star, actually, you know, I think you mentioned in that episode, the star that led the three wise men to the manger, that's the back cover of my third book, because I think that was a UFO too. Asteroids don't do that, stars don't do that, UFOs do that. UFOs will take you to where the next Messiah was born. So if we take that at face value, how many other things that we have put into a religious text, not just Christianity or Judaism or Islam, but all of the other,

religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, all of the different Native American, indigenous belief systems. How many of those were influenced by things like that, by UFO encounters or telepathy or abductions? So, yeah, I mean, I wrote my third book as fictions called Revelation, The Future, Human Past. I wrote it for a very specific audience. But it, it, because I can't write that as a scientific book, you know. I needed to write that as satire, and I needed to write it as fiction. But a lot of stuff in there, I do think is probably accurate with regard to the way UFOs may have interacted with people through time and how that may have influenced religious belief systems. Interesting.

Yeah. Again, looking at, you know, scripturally speaking, these ancient texts to say, you know, that a light guided these people that, you know, ostensibly were wise that, you know, Some speculated they have, you know, astronomical knowledge that they're, you know, star-gazers, perhaps, and that they see this one particular light that then leads them to the birth of the Christ. Which, you know, seems like a compelling and positive moment as it's sort of represented in the scriptures. And then for these other entities, perhaps the same entities, to not engage with the question of Christ, I find, you know, it's curious to me. Yeah. Are they, you know, and again, there's also this question of like, are these all the same entities? right is it all the same true that's a really important question you know is it possible you know

again i'm always going to be seeing things through my uh religious upbringing but you know to say like you know within the christian tradition there is good and there is evil and that there are positive entities and negative entities and it's you know possible that you know the law of one and you know the communication with set these could be different entities they could be you know different versions of the same consciousness like i don't know if it's necessarily possible to pause parse what exactly it is. You know, was the wheel within the wheel from Ezekiel, was that angelic, and, you know, the serpent in the garden was that necessarily demonic. Obviously, people have disputed these things, but, you know, it just leads one to wonder. And where do we draw the line

between metaphor and something that actually was? Sure. Right, exactly. So, I don't know, it brings up the question of, like, not engaging with the question, makes you wonder, okay, why. Yeah. And to the extent, like, that, Jeff Crapel, who's a, um, religious scholar, PhD, religious studies. The first Eslin event that he invited me to, he started his little talk, you know, like welcome everyone's PhDs from all these different fields, psychology, biology. But he, and I guess I thought it was interesting,

but he put a slide in his welcome presentation what I just told you, you know, the one question they wouldn't answer was about Jesus Christ. And then a pause. Like, let's all stop and think about that for a second. This guy who studies religion and comparative studies and through time was like, wait a minute, this is really important. And the whole like welcome talk didn't really have anything to do with that, but he saw it as important enough to stick it in there and say, let's all talk about this. I agree.

You know, I think I think we could learn a lot from that, especially with regard to how much they might all be the same thing. religions, belief systems, worldviews, how much they might have been shaped by these same types of interactions that we have now, these abductions, the telepathic communication, seen lights on the sky. Was it all similar the same? And they just developed these worldviews around it? Or was it intentional? That's the thing I struggle with. Was it intentional some sort of catalyst to help human sort of follow the carrot and the stick towards some other more grandiose real. later on. I don't know. Yeah. No, it's interesting. Again, I don't want to overly moralize things. I think that's probably a trap that, you know, religious folks can fall into to say like, that's bad, that's good, especially if things are, you know, helping people in certain capacities, right? Like, for a long time, weed was seen as, you know, Satanic, but now we can kind of see it's like used medicinally to help people sleep or with chronic pain. So I don't, I don't want to, I want to try to steer away from that on a personal basis, but it does, it does leave a little bit of an open-ended feeling for me to say, like, Hmm. The fact that that specific entity, I don't want to group all type of spiritual entities. No, and I wish more people were like you. The world would be a better place.

There's a lot of people still that just want to nounify and moralize and put into little boxes, all of these things in it. And then push them aside. Right. Not put it in a box and hide it in your closet, you know, with your porn stash. That's a bad thing to do. We should be talking about all of these things and be having these conversations about ethics and morals and just, intentionality and free will. I think it's all important.

But if we just put it in a box and stash it away, but we can't do that. Yeah. Even if it's not easy. That specific entity, I might look at it sideways, be like, all right,

maybe I won't accept to download from you. Yeah. Well, and that's the thing. Had there been any sense, like I'm a very empathetic, nice person, you know, I'd like to think I'm full of love.

Had I had any sense, that this was negative in any way. Of course. I'm out of there. Yeah. You know? Yeah. No, of course.

And I think, yeah, I think most reasonable, you know, ethical people would probably do the same thing. With that said, who knows what the future holds? If the things they put in my brain were related to some cataclysm of some sort, even then we could say, well, they must be bad because, you know, maybe they know the future and it's bad, and they don't stop it. No, I don't think that. of John is cataclysmic.

Yeah. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here. Right. I, again, I don't know what's in my damn brain, which is weird as shit, if you think about it. Well, no one really does.

Even the ability, even the ability to put things in my brain with a time release stamp. Mm-hmm. How do you do that? What is our brain? What is our mind? Yeah.

What are memories? Mm-hmm. You know? It's still, yeah, it's still very confusing, all of it. Have you received any other downloads since that one?

Yeah, there's been a couple other times. that similar things to that have happened? Through a mediumship, or was it? Well, what's interesting is, no, one of them, I was just sitting in my backyard feeling a lot of gratitude, just kind of looking at the house. There are a lot of lights.

We have these floodlights that go, we never turn them on because it's a tremendous waste of energy. But for some reason they were on, and I was just sitting there, it had maybe three beers. and the same thing happened with the eyes open and the light. And then I'd have some missing time. I don't know how long I was sitting there. It was a nice night, so I wasn't cold or anything.

And then that was an isolated situation. And then one night I was asleep and I woke up, sat up. Usually I just wake up and kind of roll around because it's cozy. But I sat up and realized the same sort of color and light and information thing was happening, which I think is what woke me up. And then I laid back down exactly a half hour later. I sat up again. And this time I was like, oh, this is familiar.

Like I knew it from that balcony. It was after probably two or three months after that. But much slower. It was a really slow process. And then I lay back down instantly asleep, which also never happens to me. This happened probably five times where I would sit up. I was aware of what was happening, but it was like a break in the transmission. And I can't confirm this.

But I had a sense that there was something above my house. I have no way of confirming that was just an intuitive sense. I didn't get up and look. In fact, every time I sat up, I was only awake for 15 seconds, 20 seconds, lay back down instantly asleep. Between the hours of 3 and 5. I don't remember the time of night. I don't even know if I looked at a clock, to be honest. But I was aware from that experience on the balcony

that this was happening in the same way it did then. But instead of the fire hose of information, it was like a slow trickle. And I didn't have the physiological response the next day. My brain wasn't heavy. It wasn't crying. But I was aware that that same thing happened. With, again, no memory, partial memory of any of the download.

I have no idea what was happening with either of those instances. And that was the last one. No. There was one other one too, which I don't think I've ever talked about because I don't like talking about it. So it makes me sad. But I'm willing to, if you want, if you're comfortable, by all means, I would love to know. I think it would be interesting, but no pressure. Yeah, well, I think it's important for what we're talking about.

And I'll mention, too, like, there, A lot of this stuff I'm talking about probably sounds insane. I'm aware of that. You're a more open-minded person. It's extraordinary. It's extraordinary. It's at the edges of our circumscribed reality. Sure.

Pushing at the edges. So people don't have to believe it. You know, I'm telling the truth. It would be extremely difficult if this was a lie to try to maintain this lie and all of the details involved. Like, this shit really did happen. Yeah. And I don't know if you have any motivation to lie. Yeah.

It sucked. I didn't want to talk about this. Right. You know, a year after this happened, knowing Jesse would want to, and that was another thing that came up in this question-answer session is I asked, can I talk about this? Because it was clear to me instantly that it was extraordinary. And they said, we want you to talk about this. So I felt kind of tasked to.

And like I told Julian recently, like I dedicated my second book to the brave women and men who are willing to talk about their abduction experiences, because I can't, as a researcher, do anything unless people talk about what happened to them. You know, can do observational studies based on the data that comes from people's experiences. And so I feel like that's what I'm doing, too, in the same way. Just here's what happened to me. Do with it what you want. Call it demons and put it in a safe little box. That's fine. Tell me I'm lying. That's fine, too. I don't care. it would only take a little bit of research to find out, at least with the Phoenix mini-abduction, that I'm not lying. Because there's a lot of other people that were involved and or saw it.

This other one, though, was just me and a cat. So it's, you know, take it for what you will. There weren't other people involved. It's not verifiable in that sense. But basically the last year has sucked ass big time. It's been a bad year. I've had this chronic stomach pain that has gone on since mid-February. Getting a colonoscopy next week, first one.

Pretty excited about that. But they did the CT scans and all kinds of blood work, and they don't know what the hell it is. So they're going to give me drugs and put stuff in my butt. Around that time, one of my best friends' child died and a horrible ski out. accident. And we got a little beautiful little kitten. And it was very vibrant. It was very vibrant. My daughter's cat, slept with her. And like all of a sudden it just wasn't acting right. And its belly got real big. And it had some like autoimmune disease, I guess, that's untreatable. There's certain treatments in other countries, but the U.S. hasn't approved them. So we don't have them.

So this beautiful little kitten was dying in my arms one night. And I was thinking about our friend who just died and just in constant pain. I was sort of torn MCL at that time. And I was sitting in this chair in my office slash bar slash living room area. And I was facing that same godlight. And I don't know exactly how this works. but somehow I left my body and went over to the window that looks at that light

but I had the cat with me too and that's what I don't really understand because like my body was still in the chair but I was there with the light and the cat was still with me like dined. It was like the day before we had to put it down it was pretty much already gone so maybe it left its body too I don't know

as it was about to the next day Um, but that was like, that was the most recent interaction where I was fully astral out of body communicating with them in a very like, fuck you guys kind of way. Like, what is this? You know? Um, like, why is their death? Why is there? Um, yeah, I just, you know, where do you go for? answers with that stuff and I was just trying to get some clarity and um it it it was useful i mean it was like it was like on the balcony you know when i was talking about sort of the crown chakra interaction instant communication telepathic communication like seeing that beautiful existence where there is no pain i was brought back into that for that period of time when I was standing at the door to my balcony with the cat. And there was a lot of clarity in that moment.

There were a lot of not answers, but just realizations. But I do remember just not feeling any of that pain, physical or emotional. And one thing that stands out is I, you know, It was kind of a back and forth. Like, I was angry about all of these things. And I remember holding up the cat and saying, you know, like, why? Why, this beautiful little creature. And they, whoever they is, is like, that's just me.

You're just showing me myself. And I was like, fine, but I like yourself in this fucking cat body. You know, I love this little thing. But it made sense. too. We're all just the same thing in different physical vessels as far as I can tell. And honestly, a lot of the same channel material, Aaron, Quo, Seth, Raw, they all say that same thing. So many religions do. So many different traditions argue that we're all just little droplets of light, you know, fractal expressions of source consciousness, as my friend Darren King likes to say.

Um, but what's, what's funny is as much like that acid trip where you can't bring things back. I, I remember a lot of what was communicated in that moment. With utmost clarity and understanding, still didn't like it, still disagreed with a lot of it. But I saw things in a different way. But then I got back into my body. remember very clearly just sort of sitting back down in the chair and just bawling like the clarity I had in that moment was just gone and it was like just a really um I don't know just a really hard transition to make this this place kind of sucks sometimes this physical existence

um I was I was trying to talk to Julian in the last podcast I did about this book. And I couldn't remember the name of it. But I've since looked it up. But it's called Application of Impossible Things by Natalie Sudman, which was recommended to me by a woman named Sharon Hewitt Rowlett, who's doing this. She's an author. She's written about a lot of near-death experiences. She was one of the runners-up for Bigelow's competition, a million-dollar competition, about best evidence that the soul survives bodily death. But she recommended this book, and I recommend it to everyone as well. It's really interesting because she was blown up in Iraq and then had sort of a timeless out-of-body experience where she interacted with these beings in various ways. And they would

show her ways they could put her body back together and what her life would be like without a leg or without an eye and she was a part of this. She got to choose how she would reenter her body and how she would go on to live her life because they were like, we need you back in your body. We need you to be alive still. But she was like, okay, but can you make it suck less? Like that shit sucks. And I can't do that anymore. I don't want it to suck this much. And there was sort of an agreement like, yeah, we'll help you. We'll find this way that you can live. Your body's fucked up, but we're going to make it so it's usable, and you'll have some problems, but we'll minimize those. And she got to choose.

But then there is also an agreement that when I go back, things are going to be easier, which I thought was kind of cool. Were they easier for her? I don't know. I don't remember if she said, I think she did in the book. I just don't remember what she said. but yeah I recommend all of your listeners read that one and they could probably answer that question because I do think I do think she said that things are still difficult but in a different way but don't don't quote me on that it's just what I remember I listen to audiobooks because I have dyslexia and attention span problems but I still don't remember everything from the audiobooks either I read them. I don't remember anything. Yeah.

It's an interesting moment going to this light sort of astral projecting, you know, for lack of a better term, leaving your body, holding the soul of this being that you love that's, you know, passing away. And then asking that problem of evil, as it's known in philosophy, like, why does evil exist? Why do bad things happen? Why is death necessary? Right. Do you remember any type of takeaway as to like an answer for that?

Did they, you know, obviously filled you with a piece in that moment? while you were in that space, but was there an answer that you can kind of take away to say, this is why evil exists? No, not really. I don't know if there is an answer

in this solution. I don't think we're allowed to know. I think we're supposed to seek answers, but I don't think we're allowed. Maybe I should rephrase that. I'm not sure if that's the right way of saying it. I don't necessarily think that we're not allowed. I just don't know if we can comprehend.

Mm-hmm. And what's the point of being here in living in these bodies and doing these things in this physical reality? If we were able to understand all of those things, like if this is a place where our soul comes to grow and develop and face those hardships as catalysts that help us to further evolve our spiritual essence, what point is there to have a cheat code and to know the answer is. those things. Yeah, the point of the movie is to watch it, is to experience. And learn from it. Yeah, it's not necessarily to just know everything that there is about it, right? It's meant to be experienced.

And suffering and bad things are catalysts for other things, for growth, you know? Like if, think about trust Afarians and how they just do a lot of drugs and drink all the time because there's never any hardship in their life, you know? Speaking of a couple people I know personally, but it tends to be the case for a lot of people, just never. And that's what sucks. Like you want to take care of your kids and, you know, help them with bullying and any problems that they have. But they need to live their own life and experience their own things. So the best you can do is support them.

But if you try to shield them from all of those things, they're not going to grow. You're robbing them of the experiences that will help them become what they are in this body and this time. but we all have to experience those things in a cosmic perspective to grow our souls and evolve our our existence for whatever comes next i really don't think this is it like i think we're going to leave these bodies and go on and do a lot of other things and other bodies um and this is just one small snapshot of a much bigger existence it's just my personal take on it Thank you for sharing that experience specifically. I know it's difficult and just even feeling the heaviness of how you're describing

and like the emotive state that it brought on to you. It's extremely difficult. I'm sorry that that happened. Yeah, I mean, it hasn't been a good year, but everybody deals with shit. Everybody's going through like bad things. And again, those bad things aren't necessarily evil. You know, if we look at this question of morality and good. Good and bad, positive and negative, good and evil.

It's just, yeah. I mean, many would argue that's why we're here, just to experience those things, because you can't experience them and the fundamental reality that we come from and return to. Now, the sadness of that moment, was it primarily the death of this, you know, pure soul that, you know, you loved or daughter loved?

Was it the download that you would receive? or was it both, like, if you could try to pin what the emotive state, like what brought that upon, can you identify it? It was mostly the death of our friend's son. Our friend, too, is our friend too. That was the main catalyst.

And then just the constancy of the physical pain, and then this kitten was like the last straw. It's like, what the fuck? Yeah. It's just, why? Yeah. And I mean, everybody's got, A breaking point.

That was just my breaking point. I needed to step out of this body for a while. Now, do you think that fundamental reality that we may enter into once we're out of this physical body, how do you see that place? Or how do you, you know, given what you've experienced, what do you know about that place? I don't know anything. I guess my worldview currently is some amalgamation of personal experience. largely stemming from the balcony mini-abduction and experiencing and remembering. But then also a lot of, a big thing is that in that moment, I realized channeled material is real.

Like, channeling is real. That's what I was watching. Something was channeling through Eric and IAD at that moment. I know they don't necessarily like that word. I haven't found a better one for it. Have you talked to Eric about it? Oh, yeah. And what is his perception? Like, what is his, oh, I had to do this.

I had to share this with you. Like, again, because he was partially him, but also partially channeling. Yeah, I started to mention this earlier and got sidetracked, if you can believe that. But yeah, he walked out onto the balcony. He didn't know who I was. I didn't know who he was. And he sat down and remembered saying the, we need to be this close thing and the, we know you've been thinking about quitting and we'd

prefer you not do that yet. He was fully consciously aware for those. He didn't know why he was saying it. He didn't know me. He didn't know that thought. So there's no way he could have said that from his conscious mind. So they were already channeling through him at that point. But he was present, partially present. And then he says from that point on, there's bits and pieces, but he was there. He wasn't completely, his consciousness wasn't completely pushed aside like Heidi's was.

He was still there, but it was usurped or just, um, cast aside to the extent that they needed it to be. But I mean, and then when those women came out, like, did he return for that?

I'd never ask him. It'd be great to ask him. Um, like, was that him that was like turned back on like, Okay, can you go back inside? Or the way they all three turned, though, because I could see them out of my perfs.

I could see them on my periphery. The way they all three turned makes me think whatever entity was controlling him. And Heidi were also somehow controlling them, too. Because it was eerie, the way they all three turned and walked in at the same time. Like, I remember that being a point of high strangeness, too, just the way that unfolded.

And did you ever speak with them about it? I don't know when they were. But one of them spoke to you afterwards, potentially. Well, they did. I just don't know who it was. I wasn't able to lift my head. And do you have an interest in talking to? Yeah, that would help.

I love to. I've tried to figure out who it was. Just everybody I've talked to has not been the right person. Eric didn't know who they were either. He didn't know any of those people. He wasn't even a part of the conference. He was only brought there. Well, he was going to be there already because him and Heidi, like I said, knew each other.

This was the first time they were going to meet and hang out face to face. And he's friends with Travis Walton, who had his abduction experience in the Sit Graves National Forest in 75, I think. So he's friends with Travis, and he was excited to hang out with all of them. He was just pulled up to the balcony for this purpose by them through Heidi for this thing. And I don't know what happened afterwards. I haven't asked them, but I assume they hung out and did stuff later. Does he do this frequently, do you know? Yeah.

And he's sort of drawn to people. That's another thing is this was one of many data points for him. Yeah, no, I can put you guys in touch. He's starting to, you know, emerge. I think there's even a little documentary about experiencers that features them prominently in it that's coming out. I think he said later this month, so I'll send you a link to that if you're interested. But the three of us got together and talked on a podcast. maybe like a year ago.

That kitten was still alive. Because it's in the picture. It would always crawl around on me, like sit in my lap when I did these interviews. But, yeah, no, he, I don't want to tell his story for him. Sure. But he's had a number of tremendous, extraordinary experiences. Some involving UFOs directly. And has helped, he says thousands of.

people across the world, uh, experiencers who just don't know what to do with their experience. Um, he's sort of taken on the role of like, um, I don't know, like sort of a therapist in a space where there aren't a lot of people

who have the understanding and experience that he does to be able to help people. There's obviously psychiatrists and psychologists that study the phenomenon and help people, but his role I think is a little different because of his, knowledge and abilities. Now, everything that you've experienced that you've shared with us, how do you square this with your understanding

of this future human hypothesis when it comes to, you know, extraterrestrials or extra temporal beings? Yeah, that's a great question. I ask myself that all the time. I have no idea. What? They're clearly,

is a connection because the whole reason they showed up other than putting three things in my brain was to ask me politely not to quit what I was doing. And the only thing I was doing at that time was talking about this future human hypothesis, extra tempestrials or whatever. So I don't know how those are related other than, you know, and it's important to point out too that when I asked how they knew my thoughts and I'd tell them. telepathically asked future human. They didn't say yes. They just said, well, then you know how we know that.

And I go, uh-huh. I don't, I don't know. I don't really know what that means. So I can assume there's some sort of connection because that's what I was working on when they showed up to politely ask me not to stop working on it. But beyond that, I have no idea. There were no UFOs.

Like initially I thought Eric was a few, human. He had telepathic abilities, the ability to control my mind and put things in it, not stuff you'd expect people to be able to do in the present time. So initially I thought he was a future human, which would kind of make sense and considering what I study. And then I learned more about him and his experiences and what he is and what he does and realized that this is much more complicated than people coming back through time to push it in my brain. Like this is about a cosmic reality that exists beyond this physical plane of existence. How that relates to the future human question, I also don't know.

But I can only presume that there is some sort of connection. based on what little bits and pieces of crumbs were left along this trail that I'm still walking down blindly. I'm not even hungry and picking up pieces of morsels to eat that I'm like, I don't know. There's clearly some connection. I just don't know what it is. I ask myself that a lot, though. Yeah, the future human element that you were discussing, I think with Danny that I found so interesting is that these grays that people report, do look so

bizarrely similar to us that they are bipedal despite, you know, existing on some type of far off planet, you know, how would they have evolved or, you know, possess the same sort of characteristics, two eyes, some type of nose, some type of mouth structure,

a elongated brain. All in the same place too. Yeah, like there is an element of that that is fascinating, the kind of the way that you sort of lay out the, you know, genetic morphology who have these sort of common ancestor with, you know, a sort of smaller head, you know, large stomach and intestines to now our current version of the homo sapien, a much larger head, you know, perhaps walking more

upright. It's, you know, I think you described it as domestication and that we've, we've had this sort of encephalization of our minds as, you know, our brains have expanded. And that it kind of follows to reason linearly that you have these, you know, the description of these grays or extraterrestrials, for lack of a better word, travelers, perhaps, is that, you know, they have even larger brain than us, they have an even smaller mouth than us, they have wider eyes, they have almost like a cuteness factor that you would describe. And it does kind of follow in this progression that you can kind of look at, you know, the progress of man, you know, to say like, oh, it does exhibit something oddly human and why, you know, why does that exist?

in that way. So given kind of what I had laid out based off your research, when would these future humans, quote unquote, have gone to some other place? Like was this, you know, avoiding cataclysm in, you know, prehistory? Uh, was this through some type of, you know, time travel mechanism at some point, ostensibly it would have to be in the past. So how exactly does that work in the theory? Yeah, that's a great question. And very good synopsis of the research. Thank you. That was spot on. Um, yeah, there's a couple of things there. Um, one is that I, it does seem like, and this, this is what a lot of people have said. Because when I, when I started talking about this publicly in 2018, um, a lot of folks were like, oh, you know, I've always thought this. This makes sense. And, um, you know, if we live in space, our eyes will get bigger, lack of light or if we're underground. Same thing. Um, the radiation will affect our, you know, we'll affect our, bodies and make us change faster and that's all very possible um but we can't know what happens

between now and then so I sort of tried to just start at the beginning of hominin evolution and show for the lay reader because obviously we know this stuff in biological anthropology paleoanthropology human biology um but just show what that progression was like and focus on dominant trends over the last six to eight million years since we did start walking up, right, which was the catalyst for us to develop into the way that we have. What were some of the main factors that drove our evolution up to now? And if we project those forward, how they might connect the past, present, and future, based on the same enduring trends. So whether or not we live in space or underground, we do know that since we stood upright,

and especially in the last 800,000 years, that we've had a tremendous degree of encephalization. Our brains have gotten bigger, but not just bigger, they've also changed shape. So the brain has grown out over the eyes, and we're the only mammal that has a brain that sits on top of the eyes. And you also have a lot of medial lateral expansion of the parietal lobes. So our frontal lobe has increased in size and gotten wider, which is the main part of our brain for high-level cognition, intellect, social skills, toolmaking. All of these things are important for our survival. And then also the parietal lobes have expanded, which is related to a lot of those things too and motor function. But then beyond the brain increasing in size and becoming globular, as we say, and that's the trait that defines modern humans.

is that our brains got, we got kind of bobble-headed, you know, it just got wider. And as that happened, we also had a reduction and retraction of our mid and lower face to the extent that we have a chin now. We're the only hominant species with a chin. Because one of the main drivers of facial reduction is the use of tools and fire. We can cut our meat, we can cook our meat, we don't need the masticatory muscles to chew, so our face can get out of the way of the brinks. You can't have both.

Like in the book, you probably remember the example of the dogs, like the Doberman Pincher versus like a Chihuahua. And those are pictures I took of dogs, one of which ruined a rug. Because it was the neighbor's dog. They got loose and came in the yard. I, like, grabbed it to take a picture

because it had that really long snout. Didn't realize it was covered in mud. I was house sitting for a guy and it ruined his rug. But I got the picture. And so yeah, it's a good example of this because if you have, if you think of like a collie or a Doberman, they have this long projecting snout, a little sloping forehead versus a Rottweiler or a pug or a chihuahua that has a tiny little face and a big brain. So you can kind of imagine that scenario throughout human evolution because that happened to us too. Right. But once we invented fire 1.8 million years ago, stone tools about three million years ago, depending on who you ask, we could take these things and cut our meat into source.

smaller bits, which are easier to chew. We cook them, you know, so tenderizes them. And then our faces can get out of the way of the brain. Free use of our hands is another big one to even make those tools, to use those tools. So you have this feedback loop, what we call the runaway brain, where our brain's getting bigger, allows us greater intellect, which allows us cultural, technological innovations that then allow our brain to get bigger because we can have this biocultural evolutionary situation where things like that, using tools, using fire, gets our face out of the way of the brain,

it's bigger. And this has been happening throughout human evolution, especially in the last 800,000 years. So that's a trend that's not likely to just stop. That's probably going to continue into the future. Why would it stop now? And there's a paper. I didn't know about this paper when I wrote that book, but it has shown that given the networks and the ways in which the brain helps with intellect that the ideal brain size is actually three times larger than a modern human brain. And our brain is already three times larger than the astrolopithecines, you know, if you can go back three and a half million years ago. So we're looking at basically that same amount of encephalization from these earlier hominins to ourselves, from us into the future, to have the ideal

brain structure. So I basically started with that biological perspective. You know, when I was eight, that was the thing I saw, the hominin, the modern human, the alien. And I saw this connection with our morphological form. And then, you know, rather than working backward and saying, well, they must be us, let me just find proof of that. You know, rather I was looking at this from a very open-ended perspective with that awareness of potential selection bias and confirmation bias, like, oh, this must be right, because that would make us look like humans. Rather, I just went deep into human evolutionary anatomy.

It was my main specialization and paleoanthropology and graduate school and a lot of my subsequent research and academic papers are focused on these too. it just seems inevitable, honestly. And then you have things like self-domestication, like you mentioned, where we have selection for pro-social behaviors. So we went from being hunter-gatherers, where, to quote Carmen from South Park, like, screw you guys, I'm out of here, you know, like, you could just leave when your nomadic hunter-gathers.

But once we started to settle down during the Neolithic, about 12,000 years ago, you can't just take off anymore. Your family is there. Your crops are there. All of the hard work you did to. make sustenance for yourself and your family, you got to stick around, so you got to get along. You can still go fight with your neighbors. We do that all the time, but you got to get along with the people that you're with. And that self-domestication process has led to cranial facial

feminization, where we all start to look more like females of our species, and they tend to have more of those characteristics that are future human-ish. You also factor in pedomorphosis, which you mention the cute characteristics. and that's a really interesting evolutionary characteristic of many species where you start to look more like the children of your ancestors as an adult. So you sort of, and there's different ways in which this happens. I had to write about this from a general's exams and doing my PhD. It's complicated as shit.

Because we're talking about a change to the timing and rate of evolution throughout evolution with regard to ontogeny. So growth and development, how changes. to our rate of growth and development are affected over evolutionary time. So there's two different types of changes that are happening and we have to study the way in which those take place. But outside of heterocrine,

which can be either one. So you could also have the opposite where you develop hyperfast and you have hyper masculine characteristics in adulthood. The opposites happen with humans. We've developed, we sort of, arrested our growth and development cycle, our life history cycle, and we've prolonged it. So, for instance, we're one of the only species that has a post-menopausal, most post-reproductive

phase in women. Like 90-year-old is some Cialics can still get it on and make a baby, but we have this period where we shouldn't even be alive because we can't reproduce anymore. And all evolution cares about is making babies, selective fitness. So we've sort of elongated our growth history cycle, partly because we still need to get out of our moms. This is kind of getting into the weeds a little bit. I apologize. But one of the ways we can grow a bigger brain is because we have extended each period of growth and development. You know, like a chimpanzee at age two is basically like a 10 year old because they just do it faster. We've drawn everything out, but we also stop at the point where we look more like the babies of our ancestors,

and that's called pedomorphosis. It's a version of heterocrine, which gives us those cute characteristics and is related to that element of sort of, I think on Danny Jones, I said, like, why we don't throw babies out the window or something? Just kind of let that one slip. But it's very much all the same thing.

It's all related. You know, we want to take care of something that's cute, even if it's crying and pooping everywhere. You know this very well because they're adorable, you know, and then sometimes they laugh and smile and you want to give them hugs and kisses. So all of these different aspects of our evolutionary history from the biocultural, the social selection, the changes to our rate of ontogony over evolutionary time, at least to pedomorphosis. These are longstanding trends in human evolution that have continued whether we've lived in. Africa or Asia or Europe or the Americas, regardless of our political system, economic system, social system. They're just dominant trends that have continued. There's absolutely no reason

to think they would just stop. If they do continue, we are very likely to look and act and have technology very similar to these alien beings that are flying around in our skies and picking people up and doing the exact same thing I would do as a paleoanthropologist if I had access to that technology. And then I mentioned earlier, the form of these crafts seems to indicate they have the function of traveling through time. Like, it's not even just the evolutionary stuff. If you look at these machines, they're very similar to a tippler cylinder where they have this rotational energy that can warp space and time around them, engineer the space-time metric is how put-off says. So really you can just put all of this into a big time travel soup and add a little salt and it tastes delicious.

It makes sense to me. You have one excerpt from the book where you say that there was a gentleman who was abducted and then was precluded from some type of examination because he was too old. I believe he was like in the 70s or 75 and they had said, oh, you're not useful for our purpose. There was another one that got rejected because he had a vasectomy. Hmm. Yeah. because there's a very, very heavy focus on gamete extraction. That's like the most ubiquitous thing in all of these different cases.

People that initially weren't willing to talk about it later on will be like, yeah, that happened to me too. And you got to wonder, like the same thing we're talking about how it's hard to discuss the, you know, this weird shit that's been happening to me is like when somebody put something on your junk and you ejaculate into a tube, you know, that's violating. that's your no-no square that's personal space somebody put something in your butt

to take fecal samples or whatever they're doing up there that's you know that's pretty invasive Willie Streber compared it to I mean yeah if it's not consensual I mean certainly not consensual

you know it'd be funny to know if there was somebody that just you know went doggy style stick it in there baby let's do this you know but 99.9% of the time no they're doing things too us without our consent. But yeah, the gamutin extraction, I also spent a lot of time on that because

it makes sense, given other recent trends in human evolution, largely related to a 50% reduction in sperm counts in men worldwide, 60% reduction in the last 40 years in Western developed nations, which is largely attributed to pollution and microplastics, which tend to accumulate in your balls, I guess. Yeah, it's strange. Yeah. So just there's reduced fecundity and fertility in women, too. Also genetic homogenization.

We used to have different populations that could interject gene variants and other haplogroups. And we're eventually becoming one isolated inbred population on the island of Earth. So if that continues, where do you get new gene variants? You can't go to Mars. You can't go to Alpha Centauri. Maybe you can. But even if there's beans there, they're not going to look like us or probably even have DNA in the same way we do.

Unless we're all seated by something, then, of course. So you go to the past. You combine that with the rather ominous predictions or sensed knowledge of an impending cataclysm in the future. which would create a massive genetic bottleneck, you might need those genes. And a lot of people, mostly just me, I guess, I don't know why I try to attribute that to a lot of people. I've heard Whitley say this too,

and there may be others too, so I guess it's not just me. But what if this period of intense focus on gamete extraction that took place from about the 60s to the early, 2000s and then seemingly just tapered off. You don't hear about dudes getting, you know, the tube ejaculations anymore. And women, too. It didn't just affect males. A lot of women had fetuses implanted, taken out, eggs extracted. So it's both sexes. But this intense focus on gamete extraction, why now? Why in that period? Between like the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, if you look at that in the context of this very strong sense that there's an impending cataclysm

that will affect all of humanity if these are future humans it makes a lot of sense why they'd be coming back to this time that predates that cataclysm and that massive genetic bottleneck there could also be environmental factors like our genes might you know just be going to shit because of the environment. There's folks that argue that we're going to hybridize with technology, and we might get to a point where that's a runaway train that we can't come back from, so we need to circle back to get wild-type genes from pre-singularized. Yeah.

Presingularity genetic material. I don't know. Clearly, it's important. It makes more sense in the context of future humans than it does extraterrestrials. in my mind for a lot of those reasons I just listed. But that is one of the main things, is that there's really heavy focus on genetic material and reproduction. And then people claim they've had babies given to them.

Like, this is yours. We made this from you. There's all of the reports of these hybrid babies floating in exogenesis chambers, incubation chambers. There's ones like Travis Walton who interacted with both the short grays initially that were doing a medical intervention on him after he got shocked by a UFO. And then later by a human, a large human with a familial connection to the other individuals. Like they were all made from the same stock of gametes, hybrids essentially. So yeah, there's just so many things that seem to paint a picture of them being us coming back to do things that aren't evident.

yet, but if you take it seriously and look for patterns across all of these different accounts, you can kind of get a sense of what might be happening, who's doing it, and potentially why. What do you make of like arcane text that sort of reference similar things to this? You know, like the book of Enoch describes watchers coming down and breeding with human women, or I believe even the Epic of Gilgamesh describes, you know, the gods or, you know, these supernatural deities coming down and co-mingling with with human women specifically. Yeah, I mean, I think it's like what we talked about earlier with how we have these same types of things happening over long periods of time, and we just interpret them based on our cultural

knowledge of that time, which I think you also mentioned in your cases of the Bible and religious text, like, we could have the exact same thing. And I think this is further evidence that their time travelers personally, is that you could have the exact same thing that's happening to people now and in the 80s and the 60s and the 50s happening to people 2000, 3,000, 4,000 years ago. But they're not going to explain it with lights and electromagnetism and anti-gravity capabilities because they don't have that terminology. They're going to talk about wheels within wheels and burning numbers and chariots.

Voices booming and, yeah, levitation and all of these things that make sense to them. They can only put it in the context of what they understand. So it could be the exact same thing, the exact same time travelers. Imagine it's the same group of people that picks somebody up in 2010, that also picks somebody up in 2000 BC, but they're going to be described in such different ways because of the cultural understanding of that time. That could be argued for extraterrestrials, too. I'm not saying it's evidence for this per se, but clearly they're not.

there is a time component to this. And if you are going back in time with similar technology, the way Ezekiel described it is very similar to how we would describe a modern day UFO, but we would ascribe the words that we know now that they didn't have then. And then as far as our understanding, again, time is linear to us in this space, but, you know, all spiritual, religious people understand that there is a existence outside of time. Obviously, we understand that space time is, you know, different depending on where you are in relation to man. and gravity out in the universe.

So as far as the timeline would go, perhaps a million years from now, Homo sapiens or whatever that, you know, hominid future ancestor is develops time travel. And then they're able to then go backwards in time from that point. Is that a... I don't think it's going to take a million years, honestly. And I apologize because that was a part of your initial question

that I sort of danced around and never addressed. but there's a couple reasons I think that. One is that a lot of these entities, one bit of oversight from my first book, identified flying objects that I published in 2019, was mostly derived from that experience I had as a kid where it's like chimp, human, alien. So I was I was focused on that that gray's question, which are probably future humans from a very distant point in our evolutionary future based on their physiological characteristics.

However, in researching my second book, the extrater tempestrial model, I realized very quickly that there are a lot of cases that involve humans that look exactly like us and aren't hybrids. many of them speak vocally. They haven't even reached the point of telepathic communication yet. They have bathrooms and kitchens and their clothes are all over the floor and their bedrooms. A lot of people are given tours of these ships. The people that freak out and scream the whole time, they're in and they're out. But the people that are kind of cool with it or have been on these ships before and have already gotten past the ontological shock of that initial initiation,

they get to hang out, ask questions. There's a lot of people that have reached out to me that said they told us they were future humans. There was one woman, I found this case really fascinating, back in 2020, I think it was. She told me that they were at a desk, you know, they're all sitting around this desk, and she was being cool, so she got to ask them questions. And they said, they specifically told her that they're future humans, but they don't want people to widely recognize. that because then they might focus on what they look like and use that to fight over who's

going to dominate in the future. She thought that there might be wars or they communicated to her that it might lead to wars or like some attempt to become the ones that are in these craft that have this technology in the future and the ability to go back. And then you got to wonder too, if that is the case, you know, take this a step farther. What about when Grush is talking about how some of these craft didn't just crash, they were landed and left. Is that gifting technology to yourself and your society, your nation from the future? Is that some kind of time war in a sense? You know, if you can reverse engineer this technology that was gifted to you from the future, how does that relate in a global political context or an economic context? And I get the

sense that farther enough into the future, all of these petty divisions that we have now, aren't going to matter. You know, we'll look at humanity as one thing without this ridiculous sense of nationalistic pride that combined with religion has created most wars in human history. I think we'll evolve to the point where we see the unity in humanity rather than focus on these constructing the other arbitrary differentiations that we have. But prior to that, what they told her in combination, with Grush saying that some of these were gifted

does raise some interesting questions. And then furthermore, why were you so encouraged to do this work if some of these future humans are reporting that they don't want people to know that they're future humans? Yeah. Have you pondered that? I have. Yeah.

And it is, you know, I do, one thing that I do, I am bothered by is that there's not a lot of reports of black people and UFOs. that that bothers me in the UFOs in the UFOs you know you have the East Asian looking ones you have the Nordics you have a lot of Caucasian people but it kind of pisses me off that there aren't a lot of descriptions of sub-saharan African characteristic individuals if we were to go back in time now from this current point in history and I do discuss this in my in both my first

and second books. Are we seen in the future, if these are future humans, are we seeing the remnants of current geographical racial disparities, ancestry, as we call it, so we don't use the term race anymore, because it's completely meaningless, biologically speaking. But are we seeing that continuation of modern geographic variation? So like Nordics, probably Northern Europe, derived, East Asian, like Whitley described. They look Asian, but just a little more slanted of their eyes, larger eyes. Or are we seeing variation across time, so temporal ancestry, where like the grays are probably from a very distant point in time.

The East Asian characteristics might be a little before that. I don't know. But it does kind of bother me that there aren't descriptions of black people in these craft. And that might be a part of what they were talking about in relation to not wanting people to, you know, fight over who dominates the future. But innately, if they are future humans and we're talking about it and we're supposed to be talking about it and it's supposed to increase as a viable theory within the space, then it's also inevitable like you're talking about. But it's still a question. You know, how many people are listening to me talk about this?

A lot of people don't give a shit. about UFOs in general, which is also really weird. But this isn't fact. You know, it's not something that we would take up arms over, per se,

because it's just one little theory out of a number of other theories. So yeah, I don't know. Like a lot of this stuff, I hear what people tell me. I add it to the data set, but I try not to just focus on one thing. But I mentioned that

because I thought it was an interesting aspect of this whole situation. No, it absolutely is. I mean, are there any reports of black people on ships to your and to your knowledge? I don't know of any. But like I started to say, you know, if say some nations had time travel capabilities right now, you know, you're probably not going to have, unless there's some Wakanda like civilization that exists in sub-Saharan Africa, there's not a lot of nations. And this is largely because of European colonization. Yeah, of course.

Like, this isn't anything about black people or their abilities, the opposite. Like, they were victimized and beaten down, subjected to the extraction of resources and slavery. Like, there's a lot of reasons why you don't have NASA-like programs in Kenya or, you know, Nigeria and other places like that. Like, there's a history involved that we all need to acknowledge. But largely because of that, if you. were to have groups going back from right now, it would likely be highly developed technologically advanced populations in South Korea, Japan, China, Russia, Western Europe, U.S., like pretty white and Asian-looking groups, you know? So does that persist into the future?

And again, I don't think it's going to be that long into the future before we start doing this. I initially, I started saying my first book, I made the mistake of thinking it's going to be 50, 60,000 years before we look like the grays and then they're going to come back. No, I think it's going to be within 100 years. Most likely we already have this technology. And importantly, at any point in the future when it's developed, it exists in all of the different points in the past that can be reached by that time machine. it doesn't have to be invented right now for us to time travel. If there's people 300 years in our future that have a time machine, it also exists now if they're able to come here.

They can pick us up and take us as far back as they want. They can land this thing wherever they want. They can crash it and we reverse engineer it. So there's all of these different components to that question that I think a lot of people overlook because they look at it as linear. In linear time, you would have the invention of this thing and then it exists. not the case with the time machine. It exists at whatever point in time it can reach.

Dr. Masters, this has been phenomenal. Are we done? I think so. Unfortunately, I have to run, but I could chat with you all day. I would love to do this again, as a matter of fact. I should. Yeah, it's such a cozy environment. This has been awesome. Thank you so much for the time. I appreciate you sharing your story.

Absolutely. I know even, you know, the difficult details. And then additionally, you know, sharing your research is fascinating. I'm definitely going to finish identified flying objects. and probably get through a couple of the other books because it's, I mean, raid my wheelhouse. And again, I would really love to discuss, you know, more of this at length. I think there's a lot more here that, uh, there is, you know, that I would love to know. I hear people all the time, they're like, yeah, your idea is stupid because I heard what you said on this podcast.

I'm like, well, I can only describe so much of the theory and these long form ones are great, so you can go a little deeper, but this is why we write books. You know, we don't write them because we have dreams. of making it rich as an author. You know, I'm not J.K. Rowling. I'm writing this book to try to explain this theory, and there's a lot more detail in there. So I do recommend the books.

The first two identified flying objects and the extra tempestrial model are a very scientific grounded approach to this where we go deep into the things we've been talking about. But, yeah, no, I appreciate you having me on. It's great to be able to discuss these things and kind of, yeah, just approach it in different ways. Every one of these conversations is different.

I really love that. That's awesome. Well, I hope 2025 is a little better for you. Yeah, me too. Thank you so much. Let's do this again soon. Thanks, Mark.