Camp Gagnon - FBI Agent Exposes P3do Ring of Elites

Episode Date: September 17, 2024

Bob Hamer is a 26 year former FBI undercover agent who's taken down the most dangerous organizations in history. Today's story details his most evil: His successful infiltration of this group resulted in the arrest of eight members of what one defendant called the organization's "inner circle".So sit back, relax, and WELCOME TO CAMP! 🏕️ JOIN CAMP NEWSLETTER HERE: https://linktw.in/psQeqOTHANK YOU WHOOPVisit JoinWhoop(dot)com/Camp for a ONE MONTH FREE TRIAL with Promo Code: CAMPIntro and ...

Nambla is the North American Man Boy Love Association, a group of adult men that are sexually attracted to boys. Bob Hamer is a former undercover FBI agent tasked with bringing down one of the most disturbing criminal organizations in America. We ended up convicting seven members of Nambla's inner circle. He talks about this is an organization. We're a First Amendment organization. We're not here to commit crimes. And Mark, this is true. He said we've been infiltrated in the past. And he sat right there in that seat. And it was the seat I'm sitting in. And it's like, happened.

And what is the nature of the meeting? What is the discussion? I said, I just want to play with his chest. And he puts his hands on my shoulder. And he comes down on my chest and he starts rubbing my chest. Thank God that the FBI's equipment for the camera only lasted an hour and a half. I would have to explain why I've got four nipples. Is there any through line or any type of history that they all?

all kind of shared. Not one child that was successfully seduced by a NAMLA member had a strong father figure in the home. Any politicians or any people in like power positions? You know, and it's interesting you say that. Bob Hamer. Thank you so much for joining me, brother. You have an absolutely fascinating career, 26 years in the FBI, one of the most successful undercover agents in FBI history. You have infiltrated the Mexican mafia, the Italian mafia. You've acted as a weapons dealer in order to infiltrate an international crime syndicate dealing with the North Koreans and the Chinese. You've done a ton of stuff. But the case that I want to talk about today is, in my opinion, the most disturbing. It's known as Nambla, the National Association of Man Boy

lovers. This is extremely disturbing. I just kind of want to give a preface to anyone that's listening. This conversation is probably going to be a little darker and a little more morbid than a lot of the other podcast episodes that I've done. So just kind of listen with some discretion. I would just kind of like to start. Can you explain what this organization is, what they do, kind of how they started, and how you got involved in the case?

It's called Nambla. And thanks, Mark, for having me back on the show. Yeah, of course. This has been fun. I've enjoyed my time. And now you're telling people it's disturbing. The other ones are disturbing. We've got this far.

Yeah. The other ones are disturbing. for different reasons. So our relationship is such to the point now we can talk about disturbing cases. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. We flirted enough. Yeah. So Nambla is the North American man-boy love association. It's a group of adult men that are sexually attracted to boys. And it's, it was the most difficult undercover case I did, and I'll get into the details. But it was, it was one, the organization began in the late 70s. Kind of there was a sexual revolution going on in America.

They began in Boston. The reason it happened, there was, law enforcement had this movement where they, they went in and arrested a bunch of men that were bringing boys into the house, giving them drugs, showing them, and then having sex with the boys. And so the men were arrested. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I want to tell you about Smore Camp. Yes, join Smore Camp. What is this? This is the inner sanctum. This is for the

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all right, the real people that mess with this show. It's awesome. I enjoy it. I enjoy putting it together. Check it out in the description. Let's get back to the show. And because, I guess, because of the sexual revolution, there were people that saying, what's wrong? As long as the boys were consenting to this, there shouldn't be anything wrong. And the boys, and I will say, it's my understanding that the boys that were there were 15, 16, it wasn't like they were six or seven or eight years old. So the whole idea was this was consensual sex. Nobody was being physically, violently. All the boys were going after. It was the idea of we desensitize the boys, maybe pay him money, maybe give them incentives to have sex, and they were having sex.

So this movement came. It began in a church. They got together one night, a bunch of men to protest what was going on with law enforcement, and Nambla began that night. It began in a church? Began in a church. Is that in relation to any type of like church church? authority or was that just a meeting place? No, I think it was, I think it was just a liberal church that

in, I don't know. I probably shouldn't even even hazard a guess, but it wasn't, it wasn't like we, we rented out the Knights of Columbus Hall or anything like that. It was a, it was a church that, that I think recognized that, I guess love is on the spectrum and it comes in all, in all forms. Got it. As long as it's consensual. This was the whole thing. So Nambla's big thing, their charter, if you read their original charter, the idea was that we should abolish the age of consent laws.

In other words, every state and most nations has an age of consent. So if you have sex with some. someone below the age of consent, it's called statutory. So it doesn't matter whether that child consented or not. So obviously, if a 30-year-old man has consensual sex with a 20-year-old woman, that's, that is okay under our laws. If he has consensual sex with a 14-year-old, even though the 14-year-old says yes. Yeah, of course. that's considered statutory. So the whole purpose, initially the whole purpose behind NAMLA was to abolish age of consent laws.

And so now this group would meet up how frequently and were these members public or were they kind of private? Like what was the nature of the members? Yeah. Initially, the organization was open about what they were doing. And they marched in gay pride parades and they had, there are photos of we march with Nambla and men walking down the street with a big Nambla banner. They were having meetings in public venues like libraries and all that. And they had chapters throughout the country. Oh, wow. And this is in the 70s? 70s and 80s. They were public into the 90s. And then there was a famous case that kind of caused

issues for them. And it was the Jeffrey Curley case, which we can talk about a little later. But it was Jeff Lee Curley's murder and a subsequent civil lawsuit, wrongful death, naming Nambla, that sort of caused them to go underground because of the exposure. You have to understand for most of these men, exposure was worse than prison. Even within the gay community, the people wasn't necessarily accepted. Early on it was accepted, but still kind of on the periphery. They were still outsiders in this liberation movement. And so they participated.

Eventually, they were kicked out of the international lesbian and gay association. They were shunned by this progressive, like, gay movement. Right. To say, like, yeah, we're gay, we're not. Exactly. Right. Exactly. Interesting.

And so they are operating. up until? Up until the mid-90s, but they were pretty open. There was, even here in New York, there was an incident where it turned out that John Miller, who was kind of a big reporter in New York did, I guess you could say, an expose on Nambla, and they were meeting in public venues while they exposed a school teacher, Peter, Melzer and as being a member of Nambla. So that hit the news and it became an issue because apparently he was well liked as a teacher,

but he admitted by his membership that he preferred sex with boys. Now, this whole thing just seems crazy to me that you would have some type of like public or quasi public group. dedicated to, in my mind, I'm like, the police should just go to their meeting and arrest all of them, because being a illegal, so why is that not happening all throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s? Well, just to back up, being a is not illegal, acting out upon it is. Right. So that was from a First Amendment protected organization, it was because we can we can all get together and associate and we can advocate anything we want as long as we're not breaking the law to do it so kind of in it this is probably even a stupid

example but if if we just all got together as bank robbers and said we we want to abolish bank robbery as the as a law and make bank robberies legal we could do that and we could advocate to abolish the bank robbery laws and make it legal to rob banks. But what we can't do is go in and rob banks. So that's the simple argument is these men can get together and try to advocate this, but it's still illegal to go ahead and do it. So Nambla made, they made real strong efforts to say, no, we're not suggesting that we're not telling you how to seduce boys or where to go

to seduce boys or to break the law, we're just, we want to advocate to abolish the age of consent laws. All right. You agree. Yeah. It's like, I mean, sure, I get it in principle, but when there's smoke, there's fire. And if all these guys are meeting up, and in your bank robber example, if all these bank robbers are meeting up to talk about trying to abolish the law against bank robbery,

I'm going to be like, yeah, these guys are probably robbing banks. or probably have robbed banks in the past. Absolutely. So I'm sure this is where kind of you come in as an undercover FBI agent. How does this case come across your desk and what do you think initially when you start hearing about it? This, what first happened with the FBI, there was a man that was arrested in Knoxville, Tennessee for possession of child pornography. So when the FBI went in, they get his computer and they find that he had. traveled over to Thailand and had sex with boys in Thailand and had videotapes and photos of him

having sex with these with these boys in Thailand and he explained that he went to Thailand because there was a travel agent that's that set up these travel excursions for boy lovers BLs is what they call themselves and the the FBI then had a meeting, headquarters, the Knoxville agents, and the LA agents had a meeting to say, okay, we've got to take a look at this travel agent. So the L.A. office opened a case on the travel agent. I was a certified undercover agent. In other words, the FBI, as we've talked about before, it's not like TV.

The supervisor doesn't walk into the squad bay and said, hey, do anybody want to be a or a contract killer or something like that. So the Bureau, you're certified. And I was on the West Coast. I'm somewhat making up these numbers, but there's roughly 10,000 FBI agents, street agents throughout the country, the ones that are risking their lives, that are working the cases. And there may only be 100 or 150 certified undercover agents.

There really aren't that many. So toward the end of my career, on the West Coast, I always said I got the IOU cases. So if they were looking for somebody that was impotent, old, or ugly, they would contact me because I was certified. I had a lot of experience and everything. So when the case agent contacted the undercover coordinator and said, look, we need essentially an older man to play a person.

And he gives them a couple names of certified people on the West Coast, and I'm one of them. So he approached me. When he first approached me, he said, hey, we're doing a investigation on sex crimes or sex tours to Thailand. And it was like, hey, sign me up, man. I mean, if your tax dollars are going to pay for me to get massages over in Thailand, you know, I'm down for this.

And he said, well, do you want to know more of the details? And I said, you know, it doesn't matter, you know, put me down. And I'm looking for anything that's exciting as an undercover agent because I'm just, I'm chasing that adrenaline. dragons so just just give it to me and he says well this is this is boy lovers this is a we've got a travel agent here in los angeles that's putting together the the case putting together trips for these men that are traveling overseas to have sex with little boys and I will say I didn't hesitate it was still yeah this is interesting I want to find out about it

And I think kind of like the comedic actor who now wants to play the drama part, it's like, okay, this is going to stretch me as an undercover agent. I mean, I've got so much admiration for the Joe Pistones of the world, for the Jack Garcias, for the Jay Dobbins, for the Billy Queens. I mean, these guys, but none of them ever played. So it's like, okay, maybe I can, maybe I can move up into their level of legendary. So, but so the travel agent is going to be a boy lover. I mean, the person they need now has to be a boy lover. And one of the things I always enjoyed, and this probably sounds silly, but even in school, I like doing research papers.

And I wanted to be an expert on a. topic. I want to be smarter than the teacher on a particular topic. As I mentioned, an early one, you know, in seventh and eighth grade, I did one on organized crime. And I knew more about organized crime than my teacher did. And so in all of these undercover cases, I had to, I had to be smart enough to fool them to think that I was one of them. I didn't have to be an expert, but enough so that eventually I'd have an indictment to shove up their rear end. Right. If you're going to buy drugs from someone, you can't go in there fumbling around about what kind of drugs you need.

If you're going to pretend to be a mafia guy, you've got to know mafia stuff. Yeah, yeah. So now, I mean, when I first started working, I spent a lot of time in the library trying to find out about antique art or clocks or whatever it was that I was supposed to be pretending to purchase and all that. So now I'm on the Internet trying to find out boy love, boy lovers, and putting it in the Internet. And thank goodness, we had special computers at the FBI because I'm typing in stuff and I'm getting all kinds of crap coming across the Internet. The FBI had already identified predicated chat rooms where we knew that essentially were hanging out. So I was going in as Bobby 13 into some of these chat rooms. And Mark, as soon as I would type Bobby 13, within seconds, I've got four or five guys that are trying to chat with me.

I can't tell you how many times guys wanted to know if I masturbated, wanted to talk to me, you know, show me how to do it or tell me how to do it. And, you know, are you touching yourself? Here's where I want you to touch. I mean, it was so disgusting. and I'm an old man. I'm not trained in computers. I couldn't keep up with the chats because I'd have, I've got three or four chats that I can't even keep up with because I can't type fast enough. And typically it was, oh, my mom's got the computer in the kitchen. I just heard the garage door open. I got to go by and just to get off. But my purpose for going in there wasn't to trap these men. I needed to think. I wanted to learn how they thought. Because when I went in, when I went into this travel agent, I wanted him to know that I was, in fact, a boy lover.

I spent six months at the racetrack undercover where we eventually convicted five or six people, five people of fixing races and taxes. But I had to learn how to gamble. I started that case. I really didn't know the difference between a gelding and at Connella. And by the time we get done with the case, I'd hit the pick six twice. I had a triple that paid $3,700 on a $2 bet. You became a gambling. I became a handicapper.

And it scared my wife more than anything else because he was afraid I was going to become an addicted gambler. So now I want to be able to go in. I want to learn all about the boy lover, the mentality, how they think, how they act, what they said, their language. Were you surprised at how quickly you were able to just lure in a digital predator? Oh, it was scary. Did you have kids by that time? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm older.

I mean, you know, I was an older age in at this time. I was early 50s, I guess. Was it surprising to you or disturbing to you as a father to see how accessible your children could be and how vulnerable they were? Absolutely, because I didn't grow up in that generation. Right. There weren't computers. Right. And your awareness was, oh, don't talk to weird guys and vans and, you know, stay away from creeps on the street.

We'll get into this. Absolutely. Going into this case, I'm a trained experience of investigators. I've been in shootings. I've had a contract put out on my life and all this. But I assume that the sex perverts had long stringy hair, black homeroom glasses, had a trench coat and hung out at public. restrooms and just flash people. And as we'll see as we get into this case, that's not what they are. So even I as an experienced investigator didn't understand this problem and who they were. And certainly,

when I got on the internet and saw what was happening in the chat rooms, it was like, this is, this is frightening. This is disturbing. Now, as the FBI is aware of these like predicated chat rooms, as you mentioned, is there nothing that they can do to take down those? people or like to set up stings on those guys they were and that's and that's what i wasn't going in as that but you would have people that the bobby 13 going in and then you meet uh old man from utah and you're chatting back and forth and then he he wants to travel to meet you to have sex with you and you set that up so that's you had a separate division that was working on those sting operations right and then you were able to use those predicated chat rooms as

research. Yes. So I knew the Bureau had really strict protocols that you just couldn't go on the internet and start essentially kind of advertising. So we had identified these chat rooms. So you just couldn't, you couldn't go into gardening, gardening mothers selling succulents or something like that and go into those chat rooms and start saying, oh, yes, I'm, I love cacti, but does anybody have any kids they want sold?

You know, that kind of thing. So I was only going into those chat rooms that you had clearance to go into. And again, this whole thing, I'm not trying to set anybody up or engage in criminal activity. I'm just trying to learn the mindset, the words that they're using, such as BL. They didn't refer to themselves as boy lover. BLs. Right. So if you walk in there to the travel agent, you're like, hey, I'm a local they're going to be like, he's going to be like, oh, you're a cop. So you have to know the language. Right. So how long do you do the research for and when do you go in to actually meet with them?

So I didn't, it didn't take long, you know, a couple shifts in the chat rooms and I'm, and I'm picking up the language and everything. What came about on that, we were, we were working in another case, and I was down in Santa Monica in front of a Salvation Army thrift store, and I was preparing for this travel agent case, and I'm thinking, golly, I still feel like I smell like a cop, I look like a cop. I'm not sure I can fool professional, or this travel agent who deals with pedophiles. I'm not sure I can fool him. And it's like a big walking stick that was in there in the window of the salvation. And I think, you know what?

I'll just be handicapped. So I walked in and bought the walking stick. And I just figured I could be an old man that's semi-crippled and, you know, can't get really cool people. So, you know, I would could overpower children. And that's what it was. So that's kind of how that, that, you know, that. that whole crutch thing came about and i used it then for the rest of my career so we've previously talked about operation smoking dragon i was handicapped i i worked a vietnamese gang case

and i was i was handicapped i had the the the crutch and everything so um so now we're we're getting ready to set up to go to the travel agent we'd contacted him it was and i probably have some of my details wrong. It's been a long time, so I'm not under oath here. I'm not going to purposely lie to you, but the case agent had already contacted them online about the tours and the costs and everything. And so I called the guy up and said, is it, you know, I'd like to come over and talk to you about the trip. Sure, come on, come on in. And went over to Hollywood. He lived in a, I'm quite sure what, but an apartment, a complex where it was one story, a little nice little gardens, but they were overgrown and the fence was broken. And as I'm walking down to his unit, there's just, there's a bunch of toys on.

And I'm thinking, golly, this guy is putting together tours for pedophiles for boys. boy lovers and there's all these kids hanging around. I wonder if he's one. And I get up to the door and knock on the door and he lets me in. He's tall, thin guy, elderly, older than I am. And he's got DVDs stacked to the ceiling. Well, it turns out that he was a gay actor, a gay producer of gay porn. And the apartment was not.

It was kind of dirty. It wasn't kept up. But he lived there and he ran his gay distribution, gay porn distribution out of his apartment. So I'm, in hindsight, this probably wasn't the smartest thing to do, but I'm wearing shorts without underwear, baggy shorts without underwear and kind of a like a wife beater T-shirt. I mean, you know, I just, I don't look. like, you know, I'm all that necessarily cool. And go in and we sit down and we start talking about the tour and the trip. And he admits, he said, I'm not a, I'm not a BL. I put together the trips,

you know, what you want to do is up to you. We're talking about who's going to go on the trip. And he's warning me that, you know, you have to be careful what you say, you know, even in our community, you're not welcome. And, of course, I'm saying, yes, I know that. That's, You know, I heard about you, and that's why I knew you put together these trips, but you did it. And we had learned through research, he did it for both gays and for BLs. So it wasn't. Everybody on the trip wasn't. And I'm sitting there, and I said, well, I don't want to do something wrong.

I don't want to kind of say the wrong thing, the wrong people. And he said, well, we got 30 people going on this trip. and he pulls the list out and he starts he said this guy this guy's a BL this guy's a BL this guy's a BL this guy screw anything you know and so I'm sitting this is it and I said well I don't understand how does this work over there and he's well when you go over to Thailand we'll set you up there's a guy named Bob that you'll meet over there you tell him what your desires are and he will make sure that you get to the right bars because not every bar is for boy lovers. Some are for gay men, you know, but you have to tell him what your desires are and then he'll put you in the right

spot. So I'm thinking, I'm thinking I probably have come close to fulfilling the elements of this case that we've got we've got a man that's admitting to helping boy lovers. travels, telling them how they can find boys overseas, setting them up with the contact to find the boys, they can have sex, they can do any type of sex acts with these boys when they go to them. I'm kind of figuring I've come close to fulfilling all the elements of the trial, and I probably got it. So now, I'm playing up, this is, we talked about this before, but I'm playing up the

osteogenetic osteomyelitis result in spinalomyelitis. And I'm limping over, and he's got a glass-tabled, a glass-covered coffee table. And my leg is underneath it. And I just figured, I'm going to screw with this guy. And I jumped. My leg jumped. And it hit the bottom, and it cracked the glass coffee table. And I said, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I've got this condition. And I have. I have trouble. I can't control the jumping and the twitching. And I was like, this is so great. I've just, I've just screwed with this guy and cracked his coffee table. Now, I'm sorry.

Go ahead. No, I'm so curious. Like, the guy is obviously, in my mind, a creep. It doesn't seem like he is based off what he's saying. No. I don't know. I don't think he works. I mean, what he's doing.

should be illegal, but I don't know enough about the laws. Is what he's doing illegal? What happened was, so like I said, I've cracked the coffee table, and I'm figuring that, you know, this is fun. We go back. I tell my case agent, we figure we got this guy, that we've got everything we need to take him down and contact the assistant United States attorney, the AUSA, with all the evidence. And she says you don't have enough that this isn't, this isn't enough to get, to get a prosecution. And it's, it's one of those things that it's still frustrating to me when you talk to the general public.

Because on Dick Wolf's Law and Order, they find a partial fingerprint and they indict the guy with, they'll indict him and bring him into court with the idea that maybe he'll get scared and agreed to plea guilty and then give up. all of the members of the conspiracy. Well, it doesn't work that way. And in the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, in the Ninth Circuit, Federal Circuit in Los Angeles, that covers Western United States, I mean, you don't indict on probable cause.

You indict on proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And we had so many cases that maybe in some other jurisdiction they would have indicted. But in L.A., when you got the indictment, that meant you had proved beyond a reasonable doubt. And it made it very frustrating for FBI agents, for federal agents. But she said we didn't have it. Well, in the meantime, I kind of jumped ahead.

Let me back up. As I'm preparing for this case, I run across the website of Nambla. And I just figure, okay, BLs, they're going to be part of this association. They're going to be members of this group. And I look up the, I go through very thoroughly the website and everything. You could join the organization for $35. So I contacted my AUSA and said, hey, I want to join Nambla. I think most of these people on this trip will be Nambla members.

I didn't know, but I just assumed that they would. I kind of won a membership card. I sort of wanted a membership card to be able to, you know, flaunt. in the face of the Joe Pistones of the world. I say, ha, ha, ha, I'm an emblem member and you're not. And she said, yeah, go ahead and join. So I join. I get a letter.

Now, this is essentially the computer age. I get a letter, dear, blank with all these paragraphs, you know, boiler point paragraphs about, you know, the organization and their beliefs and anything. And handwritten is dear Robert, you know, handwritten. And it's signed by Peter Herman. It turns out to be Peter Melzer, the guy I talked about before that was a school teacher here. And I think it was in the Bronx. But so I get this letter, but it talks about the very courageous step that you've taken by joining the organization. And I actually tried to get it slipped into my personnel file because I figured,

you know, FBI administrators aren't going to know what NAMBLA is, and they're just going to see, oh, Bob got a letter of commendation from this organization for his courage. So, you know, maybe we'll, you know, give him a promotion, not that there really were promotions in the FBI. But so, but the secretary knew that I tried to pull crap, you know, other things in my file, so she never put it in. But so now I'm a, I'm a member in Nambla. I have, I paid my $35. dollars on a member of an ambline have the dues or paid the dues the travel agent case falls apart they do a search warrant on his facilities i'm not exposed but it's probably not the right word

to use exposed when i'm not wearing underwear when i go under this guy yeah why no underwear what was that choice i just kind of hanging out you know just you know what you know you feel just all the And actually deviant. All the undercover agents on TV always wear underwear. So I figured, you know, I wonder. Yeah, it was just, I'm sorry. I just, it would just seem like the thing to do. Well.

Because they were the old, they were like cut off sweatpants. They weren't even, they weren't even real shorts. But anyway, they, they don't find anything that's prosecutable. That case falls apart. So the travel agency case goes nowhere. In the meantime, I'm a member of Nambla, and this all took place in September and October. I think in November, I get a letter from Nambla.

You know, again, thank you for your courageous step. We have a Christmas card program, a holiday card. They're very politically correct. The holiday card program. and we ask our members if they would be willing to send Christmas cards to incarcerated members in prison so that they know that they're not forgotten. And you have to do it in numbers of three because the way the sheets were set up, it was three names, three names, three names, three names, three names.

And again, I called the AUSA and just said, hey, can I, can I go ahead and send Christmas cards? And she said, sure. So I ended up getting 15 names and begin and send Christmas cards to these Nambla members and kind of put it out as, I can't remember exactly the words that I use, but essentially, I'm sorry that I think you know our organization, we put out the bulletin, which the Nambla bulletin, they have a magazine. And I think you know, who we are and I'm just sorry that you're in there that you were caught. I'm essentially tired of archaic laws and be well or something like that, you know, whatever it was. Well, a couple of these guys started writing back to me. And then I, they, besides a Christmas card program,

they had a pen pal program. So, I, I, I, they, besides a Christmas card program, so, I, I, you know, Again, these are stuff that apparently the news media doesn't think we do, but a lot of steps we take, we get permission from the U.S. Attorney's Office. So I contacted the AUSA and the Assistant United States Attorney and said, hey, they got a pen pal program. Can I go ahead and do this? And they said, yeah, with the idea that we were going to contact these guys in prison, because we're interested in travel. And can we, do you know of any other travel agents out there? You know, do you know people that are traveling where to go? Sort of this.

It was naive when you think about it with the efforts I was taking. But I was just doing it. I was going to follow through and all this. Now, keep in mind, I'm working other cases. So in my mind, this was almost like a hobby. I mean, it's like, okay, in between covering leads on another case or something, and I'll write a letter to a NAML member. So by the time this case is dumb,

I am corresponding with about 165 NAMBLA members that are in prison or somewhere around that number. By the time we took down the case, I had been a member for three years. So I had been in Nambla for three years, not on a daily basis or anything like that. We'll get into a little more details. So I'm corresponding with,

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So in between covering terrorism leads, writing to... incarcerated getting letters back from them some of the letters it was sad i mean some of them were i'm a born-again christian i've learned that this was wrong uh please don't contact me again and so we didn't oh wow some of them i i got on a uh somebody submitted my name to a Christian mailing list. And so I start getting letters to my undercover post office box from this Christian group about sexual addiction and how to help. Others, they were so graphic.

It was, you know, this is what I like. This is what I did. In the book, The Last Undercover, I have some of those copies of, copies of, some of those letters where, you know, I've, I like, I'm 95% boy lover. I'm 5% girl lover. You know, like some, they're disgusting. Yeah. Some of these letters.

And they're very graphic in the details about what they've done to kids and what they want to do to kids when they get out. And I, again, I've mentioned this before to you. that I always thought of my grandmother being on the jury. So I wanted to be careful of what I even said in the letters. And so it was difficult. Had I been more graphic in my return letters to them, they would have been even more graphic.

But it was pretty bad. But what I found, I was dealing with military. guys, airline pilots, college professors, illiterates, guys that were millionaires, guys that were on welfare. I mean, it ran the gamut. I couldn't. People have asked me, well, how can we identify one? Well, there's no checklist. There isn't anything that's going to say this or that. But those letters were they were they were frightening to me but thinking in terms of oh thank goodness they're all in prison you know right they're not out there they're they're all in prison now all of these men are in prison for their sex crimes they're sex crimes yeah it's not like these were nambla members

that were selling weed and got jammed up exactly yeah it wasn't a nambla bank robber right anything so when nambla is putting you in touch with people to write to they know that these people are in prison for their sex crimes. Exactly. Which to me, like, I don't know, that seems like it goes against their First Amendment right of, oh yeah, we're just a group

to talk about abolishing laws. It's like, no, you're also supporting people that are in prison for, for, for, you're kidding kids. Like, it's crazy. But again, you know, there was the right of association, you know, we're still, we're encouraging it, we're encouraging you.

because you were an ambla member because you did this, but we're not, we're still not saying that, you know, help us do it more. Right. Yeah. I'm probably not, I guess, I guess they, they probably, there's probably attorneys and lawyers that are in the group that are advising on how to speak and what to say in order to evade the law. Yeah, I think so. And they, again, they make it pretty clear that initial letter I got from them in their bulletins, their magazines, they do that. So I'm writing the letters. I don't know why, but one day I just decided that I'm going to write an article for the magazine.

I just thought it would be kind of cool to get published. And so I submitted a couple articles. The one was castration myth or madness. And I wrote an article about that and submitted it. I wrote another one about statute without limitations because I'm sure most of your subscribers know that. for most crimes there's a statute of limitations. If you haven't, if you haven't arrested the bank robber in five years, depending on what the state was, you couldn't prosecute them. You know, you can't go back and say, oh, well, in 1954 you robbed a bank. Now we're going to prosecute it for it. Now the statute of limitations is run.

In murder, there is no statute of limitations. In treason, there is no statute of limitations. Well, there was an effort to expand the statute of limitations for sex crimes so that it's when it's discovered or when it's reported that the statute begins to run. So that's when you were getting the, they were going after the school teacher, the priest or the minister or the coach for something that had happened 10 years earlier. But the victim has just now prosecuted. It's just now reported. So when he reports it is when this statute grows. Because you might be a child. You get abused.

You don't tell anyone for 10 years. You go to therapy in college. And then the therapist is like, you should report this. Then you go to the police and you say, hey, this person abused me when I was a child. And that's when the statute begins. Exactly. That makes sense. So I wrote an article statute without limitations, you know, criticizing this movement and all that.

They were, they were being. articles, but it was just, it was as much me screwing with them as anything else. Did it help you ingratiate into the group? Yeah. People were reading it saying like, oh, this guy gets it. Well, and that's where we get to. So now I'd only been in the group. I'd been in for less than a year and I find out that their national meetings,

let me back up. So the Jeffrey Curley case has happened. Yeah, can you explain what the Jeffrey Curley? Curley cases. Okay. So in the in the mid 90s, I don't know that I have my years right. I think it was 96 or 97. There was a, a boy up in the Boston, Massachusetts area, Jeffrey Curley, lost his bicycle. His mother had said, you're not going to get a new bike until Christmas. He, there were two men that lived in the neighborhood, Salvador Sakari and Charles James. And they lived in the neighborhood. Charles James was an Ambla member. And he decided, he found out that Jeffrey Curley had lost his bicycle. So he decided that he was going to promise Jeffrey Curley a new bike. And this would be sort of his entree into having sex with Jeffrey Curley. So he ends up, they lure Jeffrey Curley into the car. Sakari is the driver of the car. Charles James is in the back seat.

He ends up Jeffrey Curley suffocating him, killing him. They take the body, put it into a trash container, put lime in the dry, decompose it, and then throw it off a bridge. So it went from Massachusetts to, I think, New Hampshire to Maine. I mean, it covered like three states where they finally dispose of the body. when they eventually catch janes and sikari jane's as a nambla member when they search his house they find the nambla bulletins their magazine they find out that the day that he had actually seduced geoffrey curly he had been in a public library on the nambla website where there were articles in the bulletin about not how necessarily to seduce boys, but that there's nothing wrong with your attraction to boys and kind of a fun thing to do is share pornography with them and shower with them and do these type of things. So Curley and Sakari are both convicted.

There was no death penalty at that time in Massachusetts. There was an effort to bring the death penalty back because these two guys did this and got away with it and they're not going to be executed, but they both got life. And I'm sure it was life without parole, as I recall. And as we know, life in prison as a, it's not a good time. Exactly. Yeah. So now, in the meantime, the parents of Jeffrey Curley, they file a civil wrongful death lawsuit and name Nambla in this civil lawsuit. Because essentially they're saying Nambla encouraged, it promoted, it gave him the confidence? Yeah, exactly, thank you, to go ahead and do this and attack.

I mean, yeah. So they went after Nambla. During all the discovery, discovery is a legal term when you want to go after the members. They're trying to get the membership lifts of Nambla so they can find out. who is part of all this. So they take a deep hit. I mean, they're going, they're digging, they're digging,

they're going after the NAMBLA of the organization, who the members are and all of this. And that freaked out NAMLA more than anything. As I subsequently learned, at one point NAMBLA had about 1,200 members. They had about 6,000 people on their mailing list, but they had 12,000 that were members. Well, people are dropping like flies.

They're getting off the membership list. When I went to my first Nambla conference, I was told there were, I think, 350 members on the membership list because people just dropped off because of the Jeffrey Curley lawsuit. Interesting enough, kind of getting back to our First Amendment,

the ASELU defended Nambla in that civil lawsuit. Because, again, they're arguing that NAMBORI. Nambla is a First Amendment, protected organization, and they had nothing to do with the death of this child. It was, if you want to sue somebody, sue Charles James and Salvatore Sikari. Case gets dismissed, so they never do go after Nambla. But because Nambla had taken this hit, the membership has fallen off. So now I'm in Nambla.

I find out that their national meetings now, they're not meeting in libraries, they're not meeting in public venues. They are having secret meetings, and they're only having secret meetings once a year. And I find out that they're having a meeting in San Francisco for their kind of their annual secret meeting. And I contact Nambla in New York and just say,

hey, I live on the West Coast. I'd really like to go to the NAMBLA meeting in San Francisco. And essentially, I get back. You have to be a member for three years and have to be sponsored by another member before we'll allow you to come to our meetings. So I was like, okay, you know, I'll just go on and work my Joint Terrorism Task Force leads and work those cases. And in between doing a couple other undercover cases when something came up. So again, I'm writing for the magazine. I'm participating in the pen pal program.

I've got guys that are in prison that are thanking Nambla in New York that, you know, Robert is really a good guy because he's participating and we appreciate the encouragement and the support that he's giving us. So now the next year, the meeting is here in New York. Now, did any of the guys defend the Curly case? Like, did any of the prisoners or was there ever any discussion about it? Did Nambla ever denounce it, to your knowledge? I would say I don't know. I don't think Nambla came out with a press release. But I know in my discussions with Peter Herman, he said, look, you know, we can't control all of our members.

This guy, this guy Charles Janes is not. representative of our group. We didn't, we didn't really do anything wrong. We just, it was essentially a bad apple in, in the organization. Yeah, that's pretty, that's pretty gross. So now they have a meeting happening in New York City. You've been a member for three years. I've been a member. No, no, I haven't. I've only been a member for a year and a half. And I, so I've, I've, I've written for the magazine. I've been in the pen pal program. I've done the Christmas cards that next Christmas then. I asked for a lot more members and I and I'm getting more members. So I get invited to the Nambla meeting here in New York and it's their 25th anniversary. So I've I've kind of pierced the veil, you know, I'm the corporate veil. I'm,

I'm now considered that I'm worthy of being invited even though I haven't been. in for three years, but they view me as a true believer because I, because I've, I've been participating. So I get invited to, to the New York meeting. And that, that is an experience in and of itself. And this is the first time you've ever actually met NAMLA members in person. Yes. This is, this is going to be my, this is going to be my first time. Okay. And, initially as an undercover agent you know you just don't pick up and go travel you got to get permission to do all this stuff if for no other reason you want to make sure you get reimbursed you don't get you don't want to get stuck with the bill if if they decide to say oh no we we're not going to

authorize it so my case agent puts in a request to go to the meeting the bureau says no you can't do it. NAMBLA is a First Amendment protected organization. We were not here to judge morality. They have a right to associate. They have a right to advocate whatever they want. So I'm going to, I'll be frank. We knew one of the board members, one of the members of the steering committee. The steering committee is their governing body. So one of their steering committee lived in California. We knew his name. And he wasn't registered. He was a registered sex offender, but not living where he said he was with the California state sex registry.

That's a violation. It's a violation. So we reworked the proposal to headquarters. We sent out essentially. leads to all the offices. We said we have an undercover agent that has an opportunity to go to a meeting in New York of an organized group of parents. Is anyone looking for any fugitive boy lovers? And if so, let L.A. know and provide details and all this. Now, I've got to kind of wipe the smile off my face. We assumed nobody was going to say.

us any leads. Nobody sent us any leads. But in terms of our proposal now to headquarters, it's we have an undercover agent that has infiltrated this organization. We know that one of the members of the steering committee is not living where he said he's living. Our plan is to try to determine where this registered sex offender is living. And we have reached out to every other division in the FBI with the hopes that if he can discover fugitives that they are seeking that would be a member of this organization. So now the Bureau comes back and says, okay, you can go. That's fine. But you know, you're not to disrupt the organization. That's not what you're doing. I think one of the prosecutors that we dealt with as the case goes on, he said it probably,

probably very clearly that Nambla is a pile of shit. We're not going after the pile. We're going after the flies that are hovering over the... So, no, you're not targeting Nambla. You're targeting the flies. Why? Why not just... I don't...

Because, again, it comes down to the First Amendment. Are they afraid of getting countersued? Is there a legal component where they're like, oh, if we are too aggressive and trying to break up this organization, we're going to be in violation of the First Amendment rights and we're going to get sued out to the water? Well, it may be sued, but just you don't want Congress. I mean, you know, even in recent news, there's been issues with efforts that the FBI is taking, the federal government is taken on different organizations. And, oh, my gosh, you know, you can't go after this. You can't go, you can't say this because the organization is allowed to exist. So you can't, you can't do this.

So, and there had been, there'd been so many problems like in the early 70s with the weather underground, with some of these different groups that they had infiltrated, the anti-war protesters, which it was okay, it was legal to protest the war. It just wasn't legal to burn down buildings and all of that. So the Bureau, contrary to what some of the public and a lot of politicians believe, they're not out to violate the constitutional rights of anybody. So, I mean, they were right to be cautious. But again, it was sort of like how you wrote up the paperwork.

And so now I'm going to my first Nambla conference. Do you have any idea of why they did it in New York? Well, most of the steering committee members lived in either New York or San Francisco. So that, so those were, that was, I think, part of the reason. Ironically, I never did meet anybody that lived in Boston. But most of the people that I ran into at this conference lived in New York or New Jersey And then there were quite a few members that were from the Bay Area. Now, going into this, do they have any type of outline of what the conference will be or what the objective of the conferences or what you're expected to do at the conference?

And is there any, like, hesitation or concern from you going into it? Mark, this was the most paranoid group that I had infiltrated. You know, we've talked about this in previous broadcast. but I dealt with the mafia. I dealt with the Mexican mafia. You know, members of the Mexican mafia. I've dealt with Asian criminal syndicates. I never met a group that was as paranoid as this group.

So all they said in the invitation essentially was we're going to celebrate our 25th anniversary. And we are going to meet on a Friday evening. It was Veterans Day weekend. I was a Marine. I'm ready to celebrate the Marine Corps birthday, November 10th. And it was always a big deal in the L.A. office because we had so many Marines. So we'd get together and have a celebration and cut the birthday cake and kind of go through the ceremony for the Marine Corps birthday. I was going to miss it because I'm going to the Nambola conference.

So the idea was we were going to meet at Grand Central Station and the dining concourse. And then once we meet there, they will tell us where the meetings will take place on Saturday because they were so afraid that if they publish it in advance, that law enforcement is going to set up and photograph everybody that goes in and possibly raid the place. And I imagine now, after the Curly case, all the people that are going to this conference are, one, probably extremely paranoid and two, probably the most depraved of the group. If you're still going to a conference after there's a massive lawsuit and a murder and like the most vile act you could do to a child, I imagine these people are pretty committed to the cause. I think you're right.

I'm not here to defend Nambla, but they kind of fell in two categories. And one of the guys I talked with at this meeting, he laid it out. he said that about 70% of the Namblum members, and he didn't have, he hadn't done a survey, but he's just estimating that 70% of the, the Nambl members are essentially psychopaths, and 30% are true boy lovers. So these, what is the difference in that? Okay. So, so these men, there were men that, that I believe, sincerely believed, that there was nothing wrong with loving boys.

Now, I'm not saying necessarily sex, but that boy loving, of loving boys was natural. And so they wanted to get close to boys. They wanted relationships with boys. They wanted to love them, to nurture them. And they wanted to do that. But there were 70% that was just slam bam. Thank you, ma'am. let me have sex with a boy because that's what I'm attracted to and screw the rest of you.

But and I met some men that for them, the grooming process was as exciting as actual sex. So they just considered themselves boy lovers. They were just as you and I are attracted to women, they were attracted to boys. And just as you and I with our spouses, you know, would whine them and dine them and talk nice to them with the idea that maybe we'll get married, they looked at this grooming process as whining and dining and being nice. And then eventually we will have a relationship. So you go to the New York Conference. So I go to the New York Conference. You meet a Grand Central Station.

And like you had mentioned before, I'm expecting you to walk into a bunch of weirdos. that just got out of their parents' basement that, you know, the dregs of society and you'll be able to smell them from a mile away and, you know, determine who they are. Is that the case? So we get to New York when I say, my case and I get to New York. We meet with the New York office. We let them know what I'm going to be doing. I'm meeting with the surveillance team. They know that this first meeting is going to take place at Grand Central Station on Friday night, Friday evening, I think it was like five o'clock or something like that. It was always comforting when you'd meet agents from other offices like the surveillance agents,

that they didn't look like Jay Edgar Hoover. You know, they weren't wearing white button-down collar shirts and all this. These guys look great. They look like they could fit in and everything. So I take the cab to Grand Central Station. I get my crutch out. I start to hobble around. and it's like I'm going to the Nambla conference.

I have no idea what these people look like. The Bureau didn't have an intelligence file on them. So it wasn't like I was infiltrating the mob, and I have a picture of John Gotti and Paul Costellano or anything like this. From the Internet, I have some grainy photographs of people, but I really wasn't aware of who I was going to be seeing or who I was going to be meeting.

and I'm kind of in and out of a few shops, and then it was kind of like, okay, I'm fashionably late, because I do think I said five o'clock, I think it was six o'clock. And I looked at my watch and it was 6.15. And it's like, okay, I'm fashionably late. Let's go down to the dining concourse.

And I'm walking down with my little cane. I'm trying to affect this limp because of my medical condition. I look over as I'm looking down as like, holy crap, you know, central casting, send me some perverts. It was obvious initially what this group was, because I knew there wasn't going to be assigned Nambl meets here, and I looked at that group and I see it. And it's like, that is them. That's the group. You know, this is, this is it.

And I'm getting excited. But before I do, I go to the bathroom. And we've talked about this before. I do have faith and I do believe I was there. And my favorite Bible verse was Deuteronomy 31.8, the Lord himself will go before you and be with you. He will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be discouraged. Do not be afraid.

And I'm standing at the urinal. And I'm quoting this Bible verse in my head. And I'm going, God, we're going to the Nambla conference. And so as I'm walking out of the bathroom, one of the surveillance agents walks by, and he whispers to me. He said, they're in the middle of the, they're in the middle. Because he thought I didn't see him. I said, gee, I got it.

And so I go in and I hobble up and I start, introduce myself. Hi, I'm Robert from California. And some welcomed me. Some were kind of cautious. But it was, we were just all kind of talking. And I'm listening to them talk about, oh, it's so great to see. I haven't seen you in a year. And this is going to be so great to talk about our history and share all this.

And so I just began talking to them, not openly. I had been warned by a previous NAML member that I talked to who dropped out of the organization that if you go to that first conference, don't say too much, you know, just listen. Just be cautious. And I was anyway because I was never sure that I was going to say the wrong thing. You have to understand if I'm being hired to kill somebody, they don't really care whether I like football or soccer. They don't care whether I'm a Republican or Democrat, whether I like the ballet or Broadway. They just want to know, do I have the street creds?

Do I have, can I pull the trigger? You're moving drugs. Shipping fake cigarettes. Nobody cares what your background is. As long as they think you can do the deal. Now I'm in this group. As an example, one of the guys we eventually convicted had videotaped a Sylvan learning commercial because he was in love with the little boy on the commercial and just kept watching it over and over again. One of their favorite movies was Lord of the Flies because it was a bunch of boys running around in the same.

their underwear. I mean, I had to, now I've got to think like them, and I'm not sure I can. I'm not sure I'm going to say the wrong thing that does. At one point, in one of our casual conversations, it came up, who's your favorite boy actor? And it was like, I couldn't even think of anybody, but someone early on had said, Ricky Schroeder and Silver Spoons. So when it came around to me, I just said, Ricky Schroeder, Silver Spoons. Oh, yeah, he's cute, you know, and all that. So I'm not even thinking like this.

And, but I had, my mind had to be that way, which in many respects made this a more difficult case just to try to constantly be thinking like they're thinking and being afraid. in one of the meetings we had was right after the election, and one of the members had mentioned that he voted for George Bush because George Bush was going to reform the medical practice.

And this guy was a dentist. And he said, ah, you know, it's eating into my profession. And they just jumped on him. Oh, I can't believe you vote Republican. and, you know, and all that. So, again, I've got to be careful what I say because even the slightest, I don't know what, you know, the wrong word at the wrong time

may reveal that I'm not really a true boy lover. And it's hard to know what things they associate with. Like, I wouldn't necessarily associate, like, a political affiliation. Like, I wouldn't associate, like, oh, voting for this president or this candidate to this candidate would be more boy lover than the other. Or like, oh, I'm a subscriber to this religion or I do, I'm from this state, so therefore

things are like this. It's hard to know what they would catch on to. So it makes sense that not talking that much would actually be beneficial. Now, are you wearing a wire during this whole meeting? The very first meeting I didn't because I didn't, I wasn't sure if they were going to pat us down, if they were going to make a strip, because I knew how paranoid they were. so that that first meeting, I wasn't wearing a wire. So we're now at Grand Central Station.

Eventually, I said to somebody, hey, it's Peter here. And so they point to Peter Herman, Peter Melzer. And in my mind, I'm thinking, okay, this is, this may not be the Babe Ruth of Nambla, but this guy is in the Nambla Hall of Fame. So I walk up and introduce myself and say, I'm Robert from California, and he goes, oh, Robert, you know, we're so glad to have you here. Thank you for your participation. For submitting articles for the bulletin, and we've heard good things about you with the Penval program.

You know, glad to have you, have you here. So now he kind of takes control of the group and says, here's what we're going to do. Some of you are from the local area. You probably don't want to do this. But others of you, we're going to take a tour of time. Square. So we're just going to take a little walking tour of Times Square. And Peter actually asked me, he said, are you, are you okay? Can you do it because of my my handicap? And I said, oh yeah, yeah, I'm looking forward to this. So we're starting to walk and I've met a couple other guys and I end up

meeting a guy named Jeff DeVore who is out of California. It turns out that he's an ordained minister slash chiropractor slash instructor to chiropractic school in Los Angeles. So now at least I made that connection. And this is his first Nambla conference. So, of course, this is my first Nambla conference. So we've we've made that connection. We're taking the walk. We're getting there. And Mark, as we get a little bit closer, you can, something's going on. You can. Something's going on. sense the excitement. I mean, it's, and it's like, I, I, I could sense it. What, what's going on here? And it's, I guess it's kind of like when you go to the big game and you're starting to walk up to give your ticket to seat and you can hear the crowds roaring and all this, we're going into

Toys or Us in Times Square. And there's a 60 foot indoor Ferris wheel. And these men, so you're taking this whole group of into the Toys R Us, where parents have brought their kids for Friday night entertainment, and the kids are lined up to go on the Ferris wheel. So there, some of these men literally ran to the railing, and they're standing at the railing watching these kids. And I hobble over, and I'm listening to them talk. And it's almost as if they're playing the dating game. So it's like, oh, look at that kid in the, I want the kid in the number 32 jersey.

Oh, I want the red stripes. I, you know, I'm going to do this to them. I'm going to do that to them. And there were two things. One, had I not been undercover, I think I would have thrown them over the railing. And two, it dawned on me. And this probably sounds stupid to your subscribers. but it dawned to me, holy crap, not everybody's in prison.

These guys are still out here, and they're talking about what they want to do to kids. I mean, this is disgusting. And it was, I won't say it was an epiphany, but it was kind of like, Bob, you better take this seriously because this isn't a bunch of good old boys that are just smoking and joking. They want to have sex with little boys. So we leave the Toys R Us. We walk past, I can't remember the name of the building. I know it was 520 something.

And Peter says, okay, everybody, this is where we're meeting tomorrow. This is where our meeting will be. We will, if anybody asks, it's the Wallace Hamilton publishing. it's a seminar that they're it's a publishing seminar so if anyone asks it that's what that's where we're gonna that's what you say you're attending the the publishing seminar now we go to we go to another place for dinner I'm seating with I sit with with Jeff and another guy that was from Michigan and again I'm not wearing a wire but all of the the three of us and there may have been four, but at least the three of us, this was our first meeting. So Jeff, the ordained minister,

the chiropractor, he's talking about he's so excited to be here. He was married. He's now divorced. He's got kids. He came out as being gay. His kids were embarrassed by him because he came out with being gay. But he met a boy online in Los Angeles. He lives in Los Angeles. Met him in Balboa Park. San Diego and they had sex. And then he met him again on his birthday and had sex with them. And then there was another boy that they introduced. So they had a threesome. And I'm going, crap, I'm not wearing a wire.

You know, can I get him to repeat this? And then Joe, then this other guy, I think his name was Joe, as I recall. But he wrote symphonies. And it was like, boy, this is really cool. Well, it turned out that he had written a symphony. It had never been published, but he was a janitor. You know, he was a custodian. So it was like symphony writer, slice custodian or something.

It's not ever, he was a building guard or something. But whatever it was. But he was playing up his occupation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just for clarification, how many people were in the overall group? Okay, so there were only 35 people. You say only. I mean, that's a sizable chunk of people to be walking around Toys R Us.

Yeah, yeah, no. And then it was just the three or four of you that went to dinner. Well, at this table. We all went to this restaurant, but only three or four. And I noticed that all the kind of the established members sat at another table. And the new guys sit at a separate table. And they're kind of looking at us. And in my mind, I'm thinking, okay, can they hear Jeff talking openly about the sex?

Are they thinking this is too dangerous or are they just checking us out or have they suspected and I'm really an FBI agent? You know, my conspiratorial mind is moving and everything. So we get done with dinner and now we kind of gather in a group to get ready to go to our separate ways to come back tomorrow morning to begin the conference. And again, it was one of these. Well, where are you staying? Well, some were staying at the YMCA. Some were staying at the youth hostel. At the youth hostel?

Yeah. Holy crap. I'm thinking, and I don't even know what a youth hostel is or where it is, but that's where they were staying. And I'm thinking this is where kids are hanging out. I mean, Willie Sutton, when they asked Willie Sutton, why do you rob banks? And he said, that's where the money is. So it made sense that, I guess. that this is where these guys trying.

I was staying at a nicer hotel. I figured your tax dollars were paying for this, and I'm not hanging out at some place. So I'm walking back. Once I know I've kind of left the group, I'm walking a little faster with my cane. But again, as I mentioned before, I didn't talk to too many agents about what I was going through.

but my son who I trusted Daly played professional baseball I signed a pro contract out of high school and been a Marine and all this kind of stuff and not yet but I think I called it I think it was probably in winter ball or something I called him

and this is going to sound racist but I just called him I said where's a Palestinian when you need him? I said let's strap a Strap, give me a suicide vest. I'll walk in there tomorrow and I'll just pull the pen. I'll blow us all up.

I'll do more for society if I kill all of us than let these guys walk out of the room. So I actually, surprisingly, got a pretty good night's sleep. And the next morning, we begin the Nambla conference. Did you talk to the case agent or surveillance after that first day? Not to surveillance. My case agent was staying in. hotel and so it was a female and I just explained to her I said well here's what happened the first night and we're we're ready to rock and roll and go to the first day of the conference

and you're taking the wire with you into this time now I'm wearing a I'm wearing a wire I figure I got through the the first meeting and nothing happened there they weren't they weren't doing metal detectors or anything like this and what are you looking to get from them in this meeting in order to get a prosecution? At that point, I wouldn't say it was a fishing expedition, but it was just we're going in here. I guess to come back to the AUSA's comments, I'm going to see what the flies are doing and what we can do. What can I get on tape?

What can I see them talking about? What's actually going to happen in the meetings? And interestingly enough, as I'm walking in, what? one of the members is parked at the curb and they're bringing food in, boxes of food. We take the elevator to the 15th floor and then we walk up the stairs to the 16th floor. Those were our instructions. So again, it was this paranoia that we don't. We don't want people to know which floor we're on.

So your instructions are take the 15th and then take the steps up to the 16th floor. that's that's what we've I mean I assume the elevator went to the 16th floor but we we go into this room it's it's not a big room it certainly isn't worthy of an organization celebrating his 25th year we had no banners up we had no no frills there was just it was just a meeting hall where where we were meeting somewhat ironically on the same floor a group of boys that were practicing or they were preparing for a play or a musical or something. And on the floor, there was only a one-hole toilet. I mean, it's just a one-hole or there wasn't for this entire floor. So I'm in a meeting with the 35 NAML members and we begin the meeting. And what is the nature of the meeting? What is the discussion?

It was interesting. Peter organized the, he was kind of in charge of the first meeting and he goes, what we'd like to do now is start with a safety lecture. And I'm thinking wear a condom. I mean, what safety lecture? What are you talking about? And he turns it over to a guy named Rock Thatcher, which I find out Rock Thatcher is not his real name. He told me his first name was Peter.

but in the Bible, Peter is the Rock. Right. And Thatcher is, you fetch a field. So maybe his last, I can't remember now, whether his last name was Wheat or his last name was Fields or something. But anyway, he made up this alias of Rock Thatcher. And I knew the name Rock Thatcher because of the submissions in the Nambla Bulletin. Oh, wow. So now he starts the safety lecture.

And I'm assuming, like I said, I'm assuming it's how to have safe sex or something. And he talks about this is an organization. We're a First Amendment organization. We're not here to commit crimes. Don't do this. Don't do that. We've been infiltrated in the past.

And Mark, this is true. Again, if you saw it in a movie, it's like I'm throwing the BS flag. He said, we've been infiltrated in the past. And he sat right there in that seat. And it was a seat I'm sitting in. And it's like, crap. Do they know, I mean, are these 35 people going to jump on me now and beat the crap out of me and all this kind of stuff? Yeah, well, that's what I figured I've faced tougher guys.

And he said, so even if you know somebody, you don't know where they've been the past year. they may have been arrested and they may be working off a beef. So don't ask where you can find pornography in New York City. Don't ask where you can find boys. That's not why we're here. So the safety lecture was all about setting up the rules for what you can talk about and what you can't talk about and why we're here. And then somebody piped in and said, you know, I've always advocated we should

allow the police to come and they should record our meetings because we we don't do anything illegal in a meeting discuss anything that's illegal and it's kind of interesting because I sort of smiled to myself and thought well you have invited the police and you are being recorded so we'll see what happens and and I did find the meetings were extremely boring I mean it was talking about the history of the organization and and their past successes and where they wanted to go with the with the organization, but it was during the breaks that there was a little bit more of the sort of the criminal conversation. But now Peter says, okay, let's all introduce ourselves. You don't have to use your real name. You don't have to say anything if you don't want to.

You'd have to use your real name. And they go around and different people are are introducing themselves. And again, as I said, when I first saw it was central casting, send me perverts, but not everybody looked like it. When I realized when I got closer that, I mean, I don't think I look like a pervert, but I fit in. I mean, there were guys that looked normal. I mean, they looked like they could be the youth league coach, the minister or whatever. They just, there were some that, yep, that guy looks like he lives in his mom's basement and 50 years old and single and plays on the computer. one guy was a Bob was a lawyer out of Atlanta and he looked like Santa Claus, you know, had a, had a white beard and very articulate, smart guy. Peter had a, was a physics teacher. So he was, he was smart. There were school teachers. One guy was an organist from a Baptist church in Atlanta or in Georgia. Some, some were basically,

illiterate. There was one guy there from Denmark. He was the only one that was from out of the country. Most, everybody was white and most of them didn't look like they, I mean, quite a few of them looked like they didn't have a pot to piss in. I mean, they just didn't, they didn't come across as necessarily being wealthy, although there was a dentist there. So, so they were educated people. everyone's saying why they're coming. And for the most part, it was this camaraderie, the opportunity to be around like-minded people and not have to worry about what you're saying.

And they came to me, and I just wasn't sure what I, again, I wasn't sure what to say. And that the night before when we were at the, when we were standing there in the dining con course, there were four cops that probably within 25 feet of us, they were standing there. And I'm kind of looking over at the cops. And I'm thinking, okay,

they're getting ready to bust us all up and arrest everybody. And because they're kind of over, there weren't, it wasn't criminal. conversation, but there was conversation. And you see a young boy that's running by either with his parents or running to get to the train. And all the heads would turn, you know, because this little boy, they retract the little boy. And so they get to me. It's my turn. And I said, I'm Robert from California. And this is my first time. And even last night, I was so worried with those police. And I start crying.

And I'm just glad to be it. And I start crying. And the guy next to me puts his hand on my knee and pat's my knee. And he says, it's okay. You know, it was tough for me my first time, too. And so they passed. And I mean, they believe the tears. What the hell?

And it never, and then kind of like during the breaks, people came up to me and said, you know, like they put their arm around my shoulder and just say, you're fine. You know, you're safe here. And so now we kind of get into the meetings and talking about it. There was one point, Jim, I know his last name. I won't say it just because I don't want to get sued, but he was a schoolteacher. There were quite a few school teachers in this place.

One guy sponsored an orphanage over in the Philippines, a guy named Ted, who seemed pretty nice. I mean, he was, some of them, I, Ted was a guy that he was, he was very courteous. He was outgoing. He was kind of like a politician needing a few more votes and shaking hands and everything. And it just sort of seemed like, I'd like to have lunch with Ted. I'd like to find out a little bit more about him.

But he sponsored an orphanage over in the Philippines. So whether he had sex with those kids, I don't think. But I kind of think he was more of the true boy lover than, man, I can't wait to meet a kid in Balboa Park and have sex with this kid. But I'm talking with Jim and we're talking about the Nambla membership. And this younger guy walks over and interrupts us. And I was kind of, it's like, damn, we're having a conversation. here, pal, you know, you just interrupt. And this guy says, oh, Jim, I understand you're from New Jersey. I'm from New Jersey. And so they start talking. And that's when the conversation came up. And this guy said,

I was reluctant to come. And Jim said, well, you know, I dropped out for a while with that Jeffrey Curley thing. And I think a lot of people have. But now I've come back. And I just know that Peter carefully screens anybody. and it would take a very skilled operator to fool us. And I'm kind of sitting there with an inner glow that, yeah, well, Peter doesn't screen him nearly as well as you think they do. And I must be a skilled operator because you guys are buying this act. And that's when they have the conversation about 70% are the cycle pass and 30% are the true boy lovers. And Jim talked about he was a photographer and he lived across the street. from a Catholic boys school in New Jersey,

and take pictures of the boys and had them posted on the internet, not naked pictures, but just pictures of boys. And that's, again, that's what, these guys are gathering up, they have pictures of boys, not necessarily pornography, but they just, they love boys.

They love to look at, love to look at pictures of boys. It seems like they all had some proximity to children in some capacity. Like, either they were a teacher, they lived near a school. Yeah. Like, is that, is that fair to say?

I think, I think it is. But, again, it kind of comes back to the Willie Sutton. You know, you're not going to find probably, you're not going to find too many true boy lovers to live out in the woods by themselves. I mean, they're going to, they're going to be where they can, they can be around kids. We, through the introductions, we had Sunday school teachers, we had Boy Scout leaders, We had, you know, I met a guy that was a big brother. You know, it was just you, you wanted to be there.

Any politicians or any people in, like, power positions? You know, and it's interesting you say that when I first wrote the book and we were trying to find a publisher, that's what they were looking for. Well, do you have a, you have a politician? Did you get a judge or anything? and nobody, nobody was. We just had what I found in the group of the ones that I was dealing with for the most part, and there were some that weren't, but they were high functioning individuals in society. So they weren't the guy that hung out at the public restroom that, you know, you look,

you knew by looking at him that he was half crazed. Right. So how many days is the convention in total? Three dates. Well, Saturday and Sunday. So the meetings again are relatively boring during the breaks. We don't get into too much, but we do talk about it. At one point, Peter comes up to me and he said,

would you be willing to be on the steering committee? And I'm thinking, and that's their governing body. And they make a big deal about the steering committee. And so we need to recruit younger members or not, new members to be on the steering committee to help us. And I approve my dedication. And I guess I was relatively smart enough to write articles for the magazine. So, yeah, would you like to be on the steering committee?

And I knew the Bureau would have, they would have a conibion fit if I accepted a job on it. Because this would be disrupting the organization. Had I been a journalist? Yeah. be on the steering committee. I can get the membership list and I expose all these people, but I declined to be on the steering committee. I actually left early Sunday morning before they voted on the new steering committee members, before they voted on some policy changes and all that because I didn't even want, I didn't want it to come up. I wasn't sure where the case was

going, but I didn't want the First Amendment argument that we had. attempted to disrupt the organization. Because in the case, we'd get thrown out, none of these people could get prosecuted. Yeah, I'm going after the flies, not the pile of manure. That makes sense. So you decline. I declined, and then I came home.

I mean, you know, we're back in L.A. I maintained my relationship with Jeff. Now, while I was there, they were going to write pamphlets. They decided that they wanted to write a bunch of pamphlets so that they could have something to distribute. And one was on privacy. One was on coming out as a boy lover. One was on famous boy lovers and all this kind of stuff. So I agreed to be on the privacy pamphlet because Joe from California that we didn't know where he lived, he was on that.

Jim, my buddy, the photographer, who said 70%, were essentially psychopaths was on it. So I thought they were really serious about writing this. I came back to Los Angeles. I started putting together the outlines of the pamphlet, submit my ideas. Never heard from anybody. And it came down to this First Amendment organization designed to abolish.

Age of Consent Laws did nothing to abolish Asia Consent Laws. There was never any discussion in this two-day meetings about lobbying efforts, which politicians should we write to, letters to the editor. It was not political at all. It was all about during the breaks, let's talk about boys and when I get to the second conference

then it even gets it gets better but at that first conference in I kept my mouth shut I didn't do a whole lot I came away with Jeff's contact Jeff DeVore's contact information and I didn't do anything

to reveal I didn't blow it I guess if you can say that at a Nambla conference So then now you have a year between this conference and the next conference. You just continue to write to members in prison, continue to write bulletins. I'm working. By this time now, I'm involved in Operation Smoking Dragon.

So I'm working that undercover case, and I'm working the Nambla case. I was maintaining contact with Jeff. We would occasionally have dinner or something. eventually with Jeff who was Jeff DeVore the chiropractor ordained minister that lived in the Los Angeles area

and your private correspondence with him is it kind of the same conversations and yeah we it was just let's get together at one point I told him that my computer crash and I lost my entire

pornography collection and it was just devastating to lose this and now I don't have anything. He was not what I was expecting. He was going through a 12-step sexual addiction program trying to get away. So he was telling me in the correspondence

and in our meetings that he was trying to up his age of consent, his age of attraction. He was trying to do it legally. He was trying to get to, 18-year-olds, but he was having trouble doing it, and he was still corresponding with kids online. At one point, he told me that he had met a 14-year-old in Canada, and they had both masturbated online, and it was so exciting, and his goal was to go up to Canada to meet with the boy someday. So we're thinking, okay, this guy's, you know, he's not, he's failing his sexual addiction program.

But the fact that he was in a program in the first place is a strange dichotomy, it seems like, that there's an awareness that what he's doing is immoral, it's vile, and illegal. And he's trying to sort of fight it, but is failing. It just seems bizarre. No, I agree. And again, it's not what I was expecting. I mean, and again, he had been married for, I think, 20 years. He had older kids.

I mean, it just, it wasn't, it wasn't what I would have said was the stereotypical Nambl member in terms of what I was seeing. But. So a year goes by. Yeah, a year goes by. I actually was still maintaining the correspondence with the members. With a couple of the members that had written me really graphic letters and everything, several states have civil commitment procedures so that if you've served your criminal time for a sexual crime, they can still keep you in if they can prove that you are not rehabilitative.

or you're going to go back and re-offend. So there are different civil commitment procedures. Florida is very tough on this. So I was dealing with a couple different guys, one out of Ohio and one out of Florida, that we ended up submitting our letters to them. And so they were kept in under civil commitment procedures. So that was, you know, it was kind of a good score.

You got to understand in most of, my undercover operations, at least very quickly, we had a criminal violation. So if you're doing a drug deal, you get the sample before you make the big buy. So, you know, you've got that. If you're with some of the others, it was always in Operation Smoking, dragging, you know, relatively quickly, we got the counterfeit cigarette. So at least we've got a criminal violation. In the NAMBLA thing, we weren't, I'm there. I'm dealing with these people, but we don't, have we don't have anything we don't have any criminal violations yet that that we can do anything so at the very least with these letters we kept two people in so i guess you can say you know we sort

put some points on the board but but nothing major nothing major do you feel like the bureau is taking it seriously do you find that they are looking at the case and saying like oh this is a real problem and we should you know put more guys into it or are they kind of no the the The Bureau wasn't, and when I say Bureau, you know, headquarters, we really, there really wasn't even, they'd kind of moved on to other things. So they weren't, they weren't even looking at this. And we weren't, we weren't keeping them updated with this, the stuff we were doing. And so when is the next conference? So now the next conference is roughly a year later, and it's in Miami, Florida. And I get invited that. I had been notified that my dues were up and I even I even questioned whether it even re-up because L.A. wasn't

taking that big an interest in the case. I had transferred down to San Diego. So I'm working the Asian criminal syndicate case out of San Diego, even though it's up in L.A. I'm working the Vietnamese gang case, which is out of San Diego. I've got the Nambla case, but L.A. wasn't all that interested. When I got to San Diego, I met an agent, John Cruthers, and he worked the cyber crimes and the FBI's initiative for child exploitation. and I'm not even sure. I think I just, I looked it up. I tried to find somebody in the office that, you know, who's working this in the office?

And so I met with John and I explained what I had done in L.A. And, oh, he was so enthusiastic. And his supervisor, Jeff McKinney, they both said, let's do it. Let's go after it. So I had an enthusiasm in San Diego that I wasn't seeing in L.A. And in L.A. It had kind of fallen off the radar except my occasional correspondence because I was knee-deep in smoking dragon. So John and Jeff, they said, let's go after it.

So I submit my new dues. Now I get a letter from Nambla announcing our next conferences in Miami, Florida. And I get invited to that when I got the conference. It was going to be at a, I think it was called the Miami River Inn. It was a gay bed and breakfast. And it was going to be there. And we had a discount for double-up. occupancy rooms.

And I said, you know, I took the invitation into John and his supervisor. And I said, just for the record, I'm not double occupying my room with an ambler member. And John joked. And he said, you know, a real undercover agent would take one for the team. Nope. And I said, nope. So because of my medical condition, you know, I needed, I contacted them. And I said, due to my medical condition, I need my own room.

So your tax dollars sprang for me to get a single room. But I had five recording devices, too, that I was bringing with me. So I was going to need to hide those things. I didn't need a roommate going through my luggage and finding it. So now we show up to Miami to begin. The LA office. I do give them credit. They had set up a travel agency. They were looking, they, they were kind of setting up an initiative to go after what they were hoping with men looking to have sex with

girls. And because of our travel agency case the year before, they thought, well, maybe, you know, maybe there's a way through our predicated chat rooms and all this so we can set up. So they set up a travel agency. So now when we're having our meetings, obviously there are still portions of the Namblicator in L.A. We have a joint meeting between L.A. and San Diego to say that I'm going to go to, I'm going to go there. L.A. agrees to kind of split off their girls with a boy. So we set up another travel agency, Aguana travel agency, which is going to cater to boy lovers.

My goal now, since I've already been to one meeting, I was believed everything went well. My goal now is to go into the Miami meeting and let's just see if we can't rock and roll and get something started. And I can be a lot more aggressive in this meeting. I had, I, I flew into Florida. I had reserved a Mustang at the car rental agency because I just thought, first of all,

I'd like to drive a Mustang. You just figured that, you know, it'd be kind of cool. And it probably would add to my boy lover image because I'm, I've got the same cover. My cover as a boy lover is the same cover that I have in Operation Smoking Dragon. My grandfather died. I have a, I have property. I own a warehouse in Pomona, California. I do that. I have four or five clients that I manage their money. I'm not a licensed broker, but I manage their money off the book. So I'm not independently wealthy, but I'm comfortable. So I need to be driving a Mustang. Show up to the, I'm sorry. By now my name is Rob. Robert Wallace. What had happened, my name Bob Bourne was exposed in a book, The Animal in Hollywood. So they, the bureau, you know, I had to get a new name. So now I'm Bob Wallace, Robert William Wallace, freedom. Men don't follow titles. They follow courage. And to be clear, Bob Bourne was your first alias.

First alias. And that was the one that you were using for the case with the Italian. Yes. Yes. And then that got exposed in that book. That got exposed in the book, the animal and So now you can't use that cover anymore because now it's public. So I had a new cover. So I had all the, you know, I had driver's license, library cards, you know, anything, pocket litter, you know, everything in that name. So get rid of all that. So now I've got, I'm starting all over again with Robert Wallace with my library card,

my Costco card, my insurance cards, all this kind of stuff. So I get to the car dealership or the rental agency at the airport to pick up my Mustang. I'm sorry, Mr. Wallace, we don't have a Mustang, we have a Dodge Caravan for you. It's like Dodge Caravan, a soccer mom's car. So I get the soccer van. Damn. You probably fit in better. Well, it worked out.

You know, God watches over you and it works out. So I had a couple different undercover credit cards. I was using one exclusively for smoking. Dragon. I show up to the hotel there in Miami where I was going to stay the first night before I show up to the meetings the next day. Given my credit card, it's declined. And I was like, crap. I didn't bring my ever, I didn't bring the Smoking Dragon credit card because I didn't want to cause problems for the accountants, you know, keep everything separate. And there was something was wrong with the credit card. I'm on the phone with the credit card company. I can't tell them,

look, I'm an undercover FBI agent. I'm stuck in a hotel. I can't pay for this. I don't have cash. How do it? I'm jumping through hoops. I'm kind of getting upset and angry. And finally, and I can't remember all the details, but eventually it all gets cleared up. And so that credit card. So here we are. I'm going to an Ambla conference. I'm still uncomfortable with playing the boy lover, whether I can convince people. I don't get the Mustang that I want. The credit card is screwed up.

And I'm going into this conference, not angry and not 100%. So I show up the next morning to the Miami River Inn and meet one of the guys who was at the New York conferences. We're getting out of the car. So it's like good, you know, chuckles, happy, happy talk. How are you? How's your year been? And all this kind of stuff. Now we walk, we walk in. I check in. We go, it's, we go to the little building where we're all, because there's, there's an area where it's different buildings, different cottages and everything. And this was like a two-story building that had different rooms in it. So we had that, the whole building. And I go in, I unpack, I'm wearing a wire, I sit down to the lobby,

Peter Melzer, Peter Herman, brings in a guy named David and introduces me to David. Kind of a short, round guy. David sits down within a minute or two after Peter leaves. He goes, Do you travel much? And I said, well, I live in California. I said, I do to go to Atlantic City quite a bit because I was going to Atlantic City in the Asians criminal syndicate case. That's funny. And dealing with the Asians on the East Coast and with the Russian mob guys.

So more often than not, we were meeting in Atlantic City. So I said, yeah, I do. Well, I'm an international flight attendant. I fly for American Airlines, and it's great. I go to Thailand. I don't know. Have you ever been to Thailand? No, David, I haven't been to Thailand.

Oh, it's great. The youngest I've had over there is eight. He starts going in to travel, the travel and having sex with boys overseas and going down to Mexico, using his benefits as a flight attendant to go to Mexico to go to Mexico. have to have sex with boys. So on tape. On tape. So here it is, Mark, we're, as we've talked about in previous broadcast, you know,

we're worried about entrapment, you know, that we want to make sure that you, that, and this is probably the closest you're going to come to entrapment type of thing. I know you're a boy lover. I know you've never had sex with a boy because you just love boys. I'm going to offer you a boy. Now, that might be entrapment. So it was, I knew going in, it was pretty clear that I had to get them to initiate travel to say, to kind of say that they've had sex in the past, that they've traveled in the past,

just to avoid this whole entrapment issue. Here we are within two minutes of reporting. Teeing it up. Yeah. Putting that, putting that thing on and bringing out big bertha and let's see. if we can't keep it in the middle of the fairway. And David is bringing up the whole travel thing. Now more guys are coming in, and we decide that night that we're going to go to dinner.

And how are we going to get there? Oh, gee, Bob has the soccer van. So we pile five or six guys into my soccer van van, and we go over to this restaurant. Again, I'm thinking this is Nambla. We're going to have a private room. But instead, we sit at a long table at this Brazilian state place, which I didn't realize Brazilians used a lot of garlic. So we're in there and we're having conversations with everybody.

And guys are fairly open about, yeah, you know, I love Nambla. I love boys. this kind of thing. And we're talking about back and forth. David talks about, kind of talks about his travels. I meet Sam, Sam Lindblad.

He sits next to me, former special ed teacher. And we're just kind of talking. And very good. I see two people sitting off to the side that are not with us. And I see them. And it's like, that's a little strange.

I hope. they're not cops because the one guy is is well built young and well built and I'm thinking I know they're not my surveillance agents I know they're not my case agent I hope we're okay so now we go back to the river inn we're sitting around the the big table somebody brings out some whiskey and paper cups and they start pouring drinks and I'm I've got to record or gone and they just start laying out the philosophy, not necessarily the criminal stuff, but just how we live in archaic society. In the, in agrarian society, you became an adult at 14 and now we've artificially

inflated childhood to 16 or 18, just this, this whole philosophy. And the two guys that were in the, that were at the restaurant. or sitting off the side, they walk in. And they weren't, I mean, they weren't cops. The one guy was an Amblin member but was afraid to join the group. And his other buddy was just kind of his crutch, his support system. And he is funnier. I mean, he's laughing and he's joking and making fun of everybody and saying, you know, I'm bisexual.

I'm married to a, my wife's a poll dancer. She's, it's okay for her to have lesbian affairs, but she caught me in the, in bed with a guy. And so, and so then there was a whole big discussion about why lesbian affairs are okay, but homeless, gay men affairs aren't. So, I mean, we're not necessarily getting criminal, but it's just kind of these discussions that, that, that, that you hear how they talk. And at one point, somebody says, well, I just came here because I'm just looking for an older sugar daddy to support me. And David looks over at me and he smiles and he said, I found my sugar daddy.

And Sam Lindblad looks at me and he goes, I found my sugar daddy. And it's me. So they, you know, and it was more of a joke. But it was just that I'm accepted. I mean, they're taking me in on this. And the conversations, even if they're not explicitly criminal, they're all sexual in nature. Absolutely. Yeah, everything, almost everything is sexual in nature except for Todd, the dentist from Dallas, the D, Triple D, Divorced Dennis from Dallas.

And he flew in on his own plane. Oh, really? So when he mentions. Like a private plane? Private plane. So when he mentions that he flew in, one of the other guys. was a pilot. So now they're having this big discussion back and forth about planes and all that. And again, it's, I've said to you before, I'm not a smart man. I don't have a whole lot of

hobbies necessarily that I can't talk about cool things. But I just sat back and let them do, let them do all the talking. The biggest problem we had was I don't tolerate garlic. And my stomach was growling. So in quite a bit of, of those conversations. It just sounds like I'm farting. The tape recorder is recording the stomach growling and it was, fortunately, there weren't the criminal conversations, but it was embarrassing to listen to it. I was glad we didn't have to play that in court. So now we finish the night and now we're ready to begin the next morning. I'm wearing a camera. So I've got a body camera on and a,

It's a buttonhole camera. I've got wires running up my chest. I've got the microphones taped to my chest. I've got the camera in the body camera. And we go in to start the meeting. Peter begins the meeting with the introduction. That safety lecture, again, similar to the safety lecture we see. Now, this time, I think there's only 16 or 17 that are,

and he makes a big point out of, We are the select members. You know, we are the core. We are the core of Nambla. And we're here to kind of renew our invigorate and renew our mission. And we know to take step forwards and all this. So the people start talking. Well, Sam Lindblad begins.

He's just been out of prison a year. He did seven years. This is his third conviction. What was the conviction? for? Chalo. Child. Oh, God.

He admits that his wife caught him his son when he was, his little boy, when his little boy was one year old. He, did I just say he was a special ed teacher? I mean, the fact that the group is like accepting. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This guy, again, is another clear violation of what they claim they're doing

or what their charter claims to be. This is not a First Amendment. group. This is a group that's harboring in sort of, at the very least, protecting, if not sort of abetting these. And encouraging. Yeah. The convicted, because you're not people that think about it. These are actual. Right. Yeah. So, yeah. So you're absolutely right, Mark. It's not, this is not, well, thank goodness I've never stepped over that line, you know, but I do love children. I like to paint them. I like to do this. I like to do this. No, this. I've been in prison for seven years for assaulting kids.

Yeah. So now we kind of go around the room and different people are making the introductions. And it was one of the guys that David R. Busby, his real name was Greg Nuska. But his Nambla name was David R. Busby, which he later admitted to me. Those were four boys that he did that did he love. So in order to honor those four boys, he took the name. David R. Busby. But it comes around to him.

So different people are saying why I'm attending the meeting and what I'm looking for and all this. We get to Greg Nuska. And he explains that he had been in the Boy Scouts and he attended this meeting years ago where Ben Love was the head of the Boy Scouts and he does this meeting. And he's talking about this horrible organization, Nambla. and and and and David Greg David R. Busby says he's talking about this horrible organization that that prays on boys and my mouth is watering and I'm thinking oh this is so exciting so as soon as a meeting

was over I joined Nambla and that's that's how I never even heard of you guys until I went to that Boy Scout meeting so so I joined Nambla so so in that Now, somebody had said one of the members had talked about he was rambling, as I am kind of doing now, but he was rambling and talking about we've been accused of being a transnational, transnational sexual trafficking ring and all that and, you know, the lies that are out there. So now they come to me and I just said, I'm Robert from California and I'm in charge of the transnational sexual trafficking ring. And everybody starts laughing.

And Peter Herman, no, we don't talk about that. No, don't even joke about that. That's how we get in trouble. You know, we don't, we know that we're not being recorded now, but we don't even want to joke about that because that's the kind of stuff that causes us issues. And I was like, no, Peter, actually you are being recorded. So on TV, you think that the recorders run forever.

They don't. I'm looking at my watch and realize that, okay, my recording time is just about up. I excuse myself to go take my medication, which is in the room, because I still have osteogenetic osteomyelitis results in spinalolyletesis. So I go back in, take off the camera now, because I only had one camera. But now I have the body recorder, and I have that on. we walk we're at the break everyone's out on the patio we we walk over sit down as soon as i sit down they're talking about travel so one of the guys dick stutzman who during the introductions and i have

this on tape he says i don't think i'm a sociopath i i hear that word being thrown around a lot there were times earlier in my life where I seduced younger inappropriately, but now I work as a mentor and a substitute teacher. You know, I'm just throwing myself out there, but I've traveled. I've in Amsterdam, I've had sex with boys in Amsterdam, and a brown-skinned country. It may have been Turkey, you know, he's explaining. I had sex with boys there and everything. So again, it comes back to, okay, Stutzman, Dick Stutzman says he's traveled.

So now we've kind of got this going. Well, in the meantime, the guy that I was worried about was whether at the dinner, whether he was a cop, he comes in. Turns out that he's a personal trainer and a bodybuilder. He's, like I said, he was a good looking guy. David, the international flight attendant, he stands up and he kind of gets behind me and he's going, oh, he said, that guy over there, Paul, he said, I just want to play with his chest. And he puts his hands on my shoulder and he comes down on my chest and he starts rubbing my chest.

And he goes, I just want to play with his chest. And he's rubbing. And I can remember immediately thinking, thank God. God that the FBI's equipment only lasted for the camera only lasted an hour and a half because I would have to explain why I've got four nipples. And again, we've talked about this in previous broadcast. Coincidence. You're not going to believe that scene if you're if you're seeing a movie. Wow. So now we go back in. Did you want to like swing on him? No, no, I mean, it was just, first of all, I was in the role of, I was Bob Wall or Robert Wallace.

I wasn't Bob Hamer. I'm not, I'm not, you know, it wasn't like I was, he was reaching for the package or something like that. But it, it was, it was just surreal. So now we go back in and we have a little bit more of the, the meetings, the meetings that aren't. interesting or that important. During that meeting out there and during one of the breaks, David talks about, you know, this is all BS. You know, where are the boys? That's what I want to know. Where are the boys? So David is, David, the international flight attendant, and I will get into who he really is. But David, he's the one that's pushing all this. He's pushing to travel. He's,

He's talking about he's he's heard there's places in Costa Rica where we could go down in, down in Mexico. He's again talking about Thailand and all these different places that he's been. But he's being very open, very forward. Very open. And other guys, because he's being open, other guys are opening up too about about the travel and what they do. And Bob, the attorney from Atlanta. he says, you know, I love the boys. I love the Nambl bulletin. I wish we had sexier pictures like we used to, but we can't do it anymore. But I would rather just go to the beach and go, you know, look at boys on the beach. So, I mean, you know, we're just getting more open, not like it was in the New York conference. That night, we decided to go to dinner. And I apologize to old women, but these are like a bunch of old women. They can't decide anything. They're kind of bickering back and forth. Where do we go?

What do we do? What do we go? Well, David Nuske, Greg Nuska, David R. Buzzbee was from the Miami area. And one of the other guys was from the Miami area. So they suggested, let's go to Coco Beach. And there's some, the main drag down there are some great places to go. Great restaurants. We'll go there and have fun. How are we going to get there? Let's, we'll all take cars. Paul, the bodybuilder, he's driving this hot Corvette. So somebody rides with him in the Corvette.

Robert Wallace doesn't have the Mustang. So everybody piles, you know, I've got six guys in my soccer mom van. And we're talking. And again, I've got an older man in the front seat of the car who didn't even attend the conference. But he was a friend of David R. Busby's, and he was a boy lover. And he's sitting in the front seat. And he has real medical issues. And we're just talking.

And he says, I'm trying to think how I wrote it out there, how he initiated it. But it was like, do you like youth choirs or something like that? And I didn't. I mean, I like country and Western music. But I said, well, yeah. He said, well, we have a choir here. It's better than the Vienna Boys Choir. And I just love it.

And I go there and I watch these angels up on stage. And again, it's the things that in my mind, I'm not thinking like these people are thinking. I know I don't love there, sit there and watch the Vienna Boys Choir on public television, PBS or anything like that. we get to Coco Beach we get out of the car we meet there's some great restaurants around maybe one of the toughest aspect of this case there are beautiful women running around in bikinis I mean and I can't look at them you know my wife wouldn't would be mad if I looked at him anyway so I had to kind of pretend my wife was there but there are gorgeous women and of course, none of us have any interest in these gorgeous women. And they're, they're kind of

playing this old women's game of what, where do we go to eat? Let's go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there was a Hooters. And I said, you know, let's go to Hooters because no one would suspect a bunch of BLs going to Hooters. And that was voted down. So a bunch of them went to another restaurant. Well, David, my international flight attendant, Todd, my divorced dentist from Dallas, and Greg Nuska, the David R. Busby, who had been in the Boy Scouts, he, the four of us, went over to Johnny Rockets and sat out on the table so we could watch the boys. And again, it came down. Market was very similar to the Ferris. wheel. Oh, let's play the dating game. Who do you like? Which one do you want? The striped shirt, the kid in a numbered jersey, all this is. And this is what I do to them. And this is my age of preference. And this is what I like. And all this is, all this is being recorded. At one point, David,

well, David R. Busby, Greg Nuska, he does, he folds up the paper for the straw cover. and folds it in a certain way and then flips it and does something. He said, this is a trick I use on little boys. You know, I like to show it's, it kind of gets them excited and it's a trick that I like to use. So again, you know, you're going to have children, you know, it might be, oh, I'd like to learn this to do this. Or yeah, I'd like to, this would be fun to learn for my grandchildren. No, this is a grooming technique that he's teaching us how to do. I mean, this is like so twisted.

If you were not undercover at the time, what are you, like, would you ask these guys something? Would you just, like, attack them? Like, how are you controlling your emotions, especially as like a father of young boys? Like, is it difficult for you to deal with the anger? Yeah, it is. I just have to sublimate it. I just, I have to recognize that it's not going to do me any good to toss the table and throw them down.

I've just got to do it. I've taught at police academies. I've helped train undercover agents. And the one thing that to be a successful undercover agent, most cops, most FBI agents, the world is black and white, either violated the law or you didn't violate the law. Well, if you're going to be an undercover agent, if you're going to be any good at it, you better see the gray. So you latch on to one aspect of that person that's good. And that's what you focus on.

And you keep thinking of that. So David, David Mayer, the international flight attendant, he's funny. So, okay, I'm going to latch on to that fun, to the jokes. to Todd Calvin, the divorce dentist from Dallas, a nice guy. I mean, if you're not talking about boy lovers, he would be the, he would be a guy you'd want to sit down and have dinner with or lunch with. So you kind of, he was sort of a lost soul. So you latch on to that.

David R. Busby, I don't know what you latch on to with him. But still, so you just, as the undercover. raging, you've got to do this and just realize that if you do your job right, down the line is where the real satisfaction comes and taking a slug at him at the table there in front of Johnny Rockets and Cocoa Beach isn't going to do. Now, did you find any common characteristics or through lines? I know you kind of mentioned, like, some of them are successful, some aren't, some are handsome, some aren't.

Is there any through line or any type of history that they all kind of shared? Like, oh, we were, you know, abused as kids ourselves or anything of that nature that they talked about? You know, that's a great question. Yes and no, but I didn't probe that because I would have liked to have asked that question. I didn't want to, I didn't want to probe it. My storyline was that my best friend when I was child, Stevie, died when he was 10 years old. And so I have always tried to find my Stevie. And that's, I'm looking for a 10-year-old Stevie, a moka teddy bear Stevie.

And so part of my cover story was that pubic hair turns me off. So I didn't want, one, I didn't want these guys coming on to me. And I wanted to, if we were talking about kids, I wanted it clear that we're talking about children. We're not talking about a 16-year-old who looks like he's 14. So, and I think some of those sort of had that repressive childhood. or had that incident that set that up. Some guys only liked pre-pubescent children. Some only liked kids that had reached pubescence or reached puberty.

And if you're prepubescent, then once you reach it, they discarded you. As you got too old, they didn't like it. But it wasn't like everybody was molested. It wasn't like they're missing, you know, their father, their mother. Those issues never really came up. Yeah. It's just, I don't know. The whole energy is just like so visceral.

Like even just hearing you kind of talk about it is like making me uncomfortable. Like I know you kind of lived it and had to like. deal with these guys face to face, but even just hearing the retelling and how in detail these guys got, I don't know, it's giving me a... So you're not going to air this episode. No, no, no. Well, we're doing all this for nothing. No, I don't know.

There's just a visceralness. I don't know. It's shocking in a lot of ways. It's strange because you talk about, you know, meeting with gang members or, you know, mafia guys that are trying to get people murdered and, you know, kill people and have probably killed tens of, you know. if not dozens of people. And it's just strange that my brain can comprehend that

and say like, yeah, I can understand, you know, wanting someone dead because of business, da-da-da. But this, having no type of like financial element or entrepreneurial element is just a parapheria. You know, that just is, it's hard to really grasp because it's hard to put yourself into like an empathetic lens. Yeah. And which is impressive that you were able to do it for the undercover.

Well, I've always kind of said that God gave me a really screwed up brain. And so I could compartmentalize. I could be the father. I can be the little league coach. I can be the husband. I can be the contract killer. I can be the person. I mean, you know, and I kind of, there were times particularly like with this case that at some point when the meeting is over, when the conversation is over, whatever, I sort of just ring out my brain.

get all that crap out of there and now go back to being Bob Hamer and not not Robert Wallace. Did these conferences affect how you parented? Did you? My kids were older at that time. And I didn't have grandchildren at that point. So no, just just the idea that I was thankful that at least my kids had a normal childhood. and that I was able to protect them from some of this. I mean, do you have advice for parents with young children that are, you know, with your awareness and kind of your experience, granted things have changed, I guess, with the Internet,

but your experience in these conferences of how these kind of people think and how they operate, what would you recommend for parents? This is not politically correct, I guess, but it's what I observe. And again, I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a marriage and family counselor. But listening to roughly 175 NAML members, people that I corresponded with, people that I talked with personally face-to-face, people that we ended up arresting and invicting, not one child that was successfully seduced by a NAMLA member had a strong father figure in the home. So these men went after that child that was seeking a father figure. And I think that's true of boys and girls.

I think that little girls want daddy, that boys want a father figure, and they would go after the single mom. They would groom the child that had the child that had the, alcoholic father or the abusive father. So they would be that loving father figure. It was some of the stories that I heard from Nambla members, how they would groom the single mom in the apartment complex. Hey, I'll watch Junior. You know, I know you work at night. Let me take him to a ballgame. Let me take him camping. Let me do this. So that if something happened, And if there was initially something that was inappropriate, it was like, oh, you know, that's just, that's just Bob.

He, he probably misunderstood because you've groomed the mother. You've already, you've, you've, you've groomed the mother to where she believes you're a good guy and you're going to do it. I was a Marine. Marines only think in acronyms, but I used the acronym act when I talked to parents. group, affirm, communicate, and trust. And if you affirm your child, if that child believes that he's loved, that he is important, they're not going to be seeking this outside figure to fulfill those needs. So tell your kids you love them. Tell them that they are important to you. Communicate. Open communication. Your kids can talk to you about anything. Don't. Don't shut them up.

let him talk. We always played kind of a silly little game, I spy at the dinner table. And what did you see? Oh, you know, I saw a cat almost get hit by a car. Well, no, you know, we really want to talk about politics here. You know, it's like, oh, okay, well, that's, you know, I'm glad that the cat wasn't hit by the car. But let the parents, let the kids know that they can come and talk to you. Because one of the techniques these guys use is this is our secret. You don't, you know, we could both get in trouble if they found out about this. And I don't want you to get in trouble. And I don't want to go to prison.

But we have a special relationship. So let's just keep this our secret. So I would strongly urge parents, you don't keep secrets. You know, we don't keep a secret from daddy. It's a surprise. We want to keep a surprise from daddy. So that when these people start using the term secret, then, oh, wait a minute.

minute. We don't do secrets. Something's wrong here. And then trust. Ronald Reagan, when he talked about the Russian, said, trust but verify. And you as a parent, you as an adult, you get a gut feeling. You know, it may be the Holy Spirit. It may be something else. But it's this idea that something's not right here. And if this person is making inappropriate comments about children or about your child or something, trust your gut. You know, don't go. Trust your, trust. Trust your, trust. What's your child's gut? There may be a reason why he or she doesn't want to sit on Uncle Harry's lap. And it could be Uncle Harry has bad breath.

But maybe Uncle Harry has done something that is inappropriate. The child can't articulate it, but he just knows it's not right. And I don't want to sit on Uncle Harry's lap. So don't make him kiss Uncle Harry. Don't make him hug and play on the ground and wrestle with them and everything. trust your instincts and trust your child's instincts. And if Uncle Harry can't handle it, then get rid of Uncle Harry. So I, because I can tell you from my experience, if you don't act as a person, these pedophiles are going to act.

And they're the ones that are going to fulfill these needs of your child. Yeah, that's great advice. That seems very actionable. And I like the last one, the trust. I think so often parents will put like respect over sort of trusting their kids. You know, like I've seen it happen where it's like, you know, a kid will come in and, you know, someone will be, oh, give me a hug. And the kid will be like, no, I don't want to.

And then the mom would be like, come on, don't be rude, be respectful. And most of the time it's obviously innocuous. But there are these occasions that you're talking about where it's like, no, the kid might have a very valid reason why he doesn't want to be around, you know, an adult. And I think that there's a lack of trust with the kids to say, like, okay, I'll respect your right, you know, and I'll respect your autonomy to not do something you don't want to do. And it's not inherently disrespectful to not want to, you know, associate with every person in this community or, you know, this small group or this family. That's a great way of putting it. It's not the same thing, but we had somebody at one of the churches we attended. And he was an usher.

But he was always given my kids candy. and I watched him and eventually I asked him not to. And I thought, I wasn't sure if he was a predator, but come to find out he was a white-collar criminal. And when he got nailed, the first thing he told, and it was the FBI that arrested him. First thing he said is, oh, I know Bob Hamer. You know, call him.

He'll say that I'm a good guy. So it was like something was wrong there. and I didn't know what it was, but he was essentially grooming my kids to get to me. Sort of not the other way around of grooming me to get to my kids. But again, and you may have, you know, you may feel the same way when you have your children. If somebody's, wait a minute,

it's inappropriate for you to give this to my child or to do this or do that. Yeah, if it seems weird, it probably is. And even if it isn't, just fucking play it safe. Like, it's just, like, what is the, oh, you're going to, like, hurt someone's feelings? Like, yeah. If you're wrong and if you're right, you saved your kid from being assaulted or, you know, like, yeah.

I mean, and the down river effects of that on like a child is just so devastating. You can't raise them in a box. You know, you have to allow them to get out to explore and to learn on their own and make mistakes. But you just, you can't, you can't protect them. but you can teach them and you can try to keep some of the bad guys at bay. So now as the second conference is wrapping up, how do you eventually actually get convictions and get these guys thrown in prison? So now we go back.

David has initiated. Let's go to Costa Rica. Let me do some research. During this conversation that I'm having with some of these guys, I just said, look, I know a guy in L.A. that went down, there was a place down in Mexico that he went to, let me check. When I get back, let me check. And I'll check on those details.

David, you check on your details. And David is the- David is the international flight attendant. Got it. So we'll both, then we'll all come together and we'll decide what to do. Well, obviously, we don't want to go to Costa Rica. I mean, we want to be in control. The FBI wants to be in control.

I come back, sit down with the case agent, supervisor, the LA agents, and say, okay, here's, here's what we got. Let's see what we can do. And now I send out the, that I said, I just talked to the guy. This is exciting. It's a B, B&B, bed, breakfast, and boys. And it's down below Ensenada. I got to tell you, Mark, I made it up. I mean, this is just in my mind that I make this whole thing up.

Later on, when the whole case hits the national media, Ensenada complains to the State Department that we have besmirched their reputation and the FBI has to issue an apology. It's like, I just made it up, you know, come on. I, you know, I'm sorry I didn't clear this with the State Department and, you know, the administration and anything. But so anyway, so I'm putting this down. We want to do, there's a, this is how much.

I just made up the figure of $600. This covers, there's a boat that picks you up from Los Angeles and San Diego, and then it heads down to blow Ensenada. And this travel agency covers that. This fee covers the boat trip, the room and board, and then the boys. But there's a discount if we get 10 people. So I'm trying to get them to bring. bring more people in. So the two people that I'm talking to most are David, the International Flight Attendant, and Todd, the dentist, the divorced dentist from Dallas. So those are the two,

the three of us are talking. By now my nickname is Daddy. I'm Daddy. I'm the Sugar Daddy. So David always called me Daddy. That was kind of our little joke. And interestingly enough, somehow the word got back to Peter Melzer that we were talking about travel at the conference and he set out a memo to everybody or an email to everyone that attended the conference that there was discussion about travel just want to warn you don't do anything illegal kind of all this stuff well we all got it and now I'm I'm kind of livid in my real capacity, and I'm livid in my undercover capacity. And David sends back this real funny email and it goes, Daddy, D-A-D-D-Y, Y, blah, why, why, why, right, right, right.

I love it when you go all bitch and all this. And so we decide, David decides, and this is what makes it difficult, that David and Todd decide who wants to go. and who should be a go. What we find out, Mark, is David is an international flight attendant that works part-time for American Airlines only to maintain his privileges to fly to Thailand in Mexico. He's a Ph.D. psychologist that works at two Chicago area hospitals. Wow.

So while we're at these meetings, he's analyzing everybody. and I'm thinking he bought my act. You know, when I find out he's a psychologist, it's like, golly, did I say something that I shouldn't have? But he bought my act. Todd, the divorced dentist from Dallas at one point, he says that he has good gaydar. And he can tell in the United States,

he can tell people that are gay, but he's not sure he can do it overseas. So he's leery of overseas of who he talks to and what he says and everything. And I'm kind of thinking, you know, what vibes am I giving off? But so Todd bought me. David buys me.

But what made it difficult now, that David has outed himself as a P.E. PhD psychologists. Well, we can't invite this guy because these are the issues this guy's got. We can't invite this guy because these are the issues he's got. They liked Sam Lindblad, who had spent seven years in prison and was a convicted sex offender, but they were afraid that he might bring too much heat. So we don't want to invite Sam. So we're going over the names of the people that are there. And who we can invite.

I'm saying to them, look, if you got other friends that are BLs that aren't even ennambl and you trust them, let's invite them. Because first of all, I want to get as many as we can. But we can, with 10, we save money. At one point, David was even suggesting we just buy out the boat and just the three of us go down. But he wanted Paul Zipser. He wanted Paul, the bodybuilder, whose chest he wanted to rub and everything. So we had his contact information. So we contacted Paul.

Unbeknownst to them, I contacted Sam Lindblad. Part of my deal at the conference with Sam Lindblad was that I've written for the magazine. I knew that he had been in prison because he openly admitted it. So I wanted to write a story for the Nambla magazine. about how we can protect ourselves in prison. So before we left that weekend, I had talked with him about, would it be okay if I contact you and we can talk about this? Because I'd like to write an article for the magazine

about protecting people in prison. And he was very open. He was very cordial, very open to everything. So we're kind of going over the names. We're trying to figure out. There was one guy, Steve Irvin, was a special ed teacher out of Pittsburgh. I didn't have his contact information. He had checked.

He and I had had a private conversation during one of the breaks. And he said that he had traveled down to somewhere in the Bahamas or with a previous Nambola member who had died. and they'd had a really good time with their travel, implying that they'd had sex down there. So I said, oh, well, I know David, the international flight attendant, he's talking about a sex and travel. Why don't you talk to him?

So Steve goes and talks with David. So now David says to me, oh, I talk to Steve, and Steve would like to go on a trip. And I said, I don't have his contact information. And David says, well, I didn't get it. So I contacted Peter Melzer and said, hey, Steve Irvin said that he would be willing to work with me on the privacy pamphlet, which I'd been assigned the year before, which I never did get done. And so Peter ends up giving me the contact information for Steve Irvin. Wow.

And I get a hold of him. I think I just meant he was a special ed teacher. So now we got him. We get a whole Paul Zipser. We got Paul. Was there any chance of getting Peter, the president? No. Oh, I wouldn't.

I would not have even, I would have been afraid to even touch him, especially after that letter came out. Because he would have shut down the whole thing. You wouldn't have gotten anybody? Yeah. Yeah. And that was one of our fears from an investigative standpoint that if I went outside the approvals of Todd and David that that might get back to them because Sam Lindblad was the guy I was interested in.

So I didn't tell Todd and David, but I got a hold of Sam. And I just said, hey, I've got to fly over to Albuquerque. Could I, would it be okay if we met and talk about the Nambla article? He said, of course. So I flew in. This time I got my Mustang at the rental agency. Met him. I did my research, found one of the top restaurants in Albuquerque, decided, you know, you go bigger, you go home.

Your tax dollars are paying for this meal. So pick one of the five-star restaurant in Albuquerque. We go in there. It's one of the best undercover meals I've ever had. I would give it five stars. and Sam goes into the details. He is paranoid. He knows that they're going through his trash.

Now he explains how he doesn't even put his trash out in the container because they had done a trash cover on him. When they'd taken his trash, in that trash cover, they had found notes that he had written to. I had a little 12-inch sidewinder, which we believe. leave men, a 12-year-old boy. And he was tutoring people in the apartment, tutoring boys in the apartment complex, had to sign up. You know, I will tutor boys for free, had talked about, I can't say that we ever knew anything happened, but in Colorado where he used to live, he had a tunnel under his home. So, I mean, this guy looks like he's, he's the real deal. He's who we want to go after. He had a tunnel under his home? Yeah. I don't know that he had that,

you know, what was going on in the tunnel, but, but we knew about it. And what was his occupation? What did he do for work? He had been a special ed teacher, but, but then lost, you know, once he went to prison and. But had enough money to own a home and build a tunnel. Yeah. Yeah, he'd been married. I mean, he wasn't married when I met him. I don't know when he got divorced, but, you know, He was single when I met him. And we're sitting there and we start to talk and he says, I'm just so afraid that I'm being watched. And I said, Sam, I said, that's why I picked this restaurant.

I said, no cop could afford to eat here. And he laughed. He said, I really appreciate that. Well, two tables over were two FBI agents that were monitoring the meeting or three tables over. They were just there to monitor the meeting just to kind of write up the report that, yeah, Bob did meet with Sam and, you know, we observed this and all of us. So I went in, I'm wearing a body recorder and I take a, I bring a writing tablet and a small recorder. And I said, I want to interview you. I hope it's okay. It's hard for me to take notes because of my condition.

So is it okay if I record our meeting and, you know, I'll take rough notes? And he says, of course, Yes, of course. So I would turn the recorder on and we just talk essentially about some innocuous things. And then at one point, Mark, I would shut the recorder off. So he could see the recorders being shut off. The stop button that's not going around, anything like that. So how many boys have you really molested and groomed and everything? So he eventually admitted to molesting 70 boys and grooming.

grooming 200. What the thing? So then it was like, okay, well, let's go back on the record. You know, so I'm, and of course, I'm recording this on my body recorder that he's saying all this. So now we go back on the record and asking more than innocuous questions. At one point, we're just about done with the meeting. And I love this moment. I said, what is the one thing that you want the membership to know?

and he balls his fist and he looks at me and it kind of closes his eyes and grimaces and he said be careful there are so many sting operations out there i didn't know it at the time just be careful and it was like yes you're absolutely right there are so many sting operations over there So as we get done with the interview for the magazine article, I said, I'm reluctant to bring this up. And he says, bring up anything. I don't care. Bring up anything. I said, well, I don't want this to get out, but several of us are putting up a trip to go down to Ensonata.

And we'd like you to go. And would you be willing to go down and explain the details? He said, oh, that would be wonderful. I would love to go. And would it be okay if I bring a friend? And I said, of course. Well, I would like to invite Dick, Dick Stutzman, the guy who says, I don't know that I'm a sociopath. So Sam is on board.

But now we have the issue, David and Todd and said, don't invite Sam because Sam is a convicted sex offender. But Sam was on the steering committee. He was voted onto the steering committee of Nambla, which even David, the flight attendant, the Ph.D. psychiatrist, psychologist, makes a big deal out of that even bothered him that Sam is on the board because he thinks it would bring too much attention to Nambla. So I've got to kind of keep, I have to keep Sam from somehow getting this word to David and Todd, as we're getting closer to the date of when this whole thing is going to go off and we're trying to figure out who we've got.

So now Steve Irvin's agreed to go. We've got a hold of Paul Zipzer. He's who needs to go. We've got Todd and David, obviously, they're going. Then I break the news. I said, well, I have to tell you that I did meet with Sam and he wants to go. But I think it's safe. really do. I think you guys have to trust me. And there was some reluctance, but they said,

okay, you know, well, I, and even David said, I like Sam. I'm just afraid of, of him bringing heat if he's being followed and everything. Now, I'm working these two other undercover cases. So I'm working three undercover cases. And I really only had one undercover cell phone. So when my, When my cell phone rang, I didn't know whether I was a macho international arms dealer or I loved eight-year-old pre-pubescent boys. And I was dealing with the Vietnamese gang in San Diego. I had met with a guy. We were going to do a drug buy, but it was going to be a couple hours before the meth was going to show up. So I stepped away and I'm in my car in a parking lot and my phone rings.

and I think it's probably one of the smoking dragon people, and I answered a phone, and it's Dick Stutzman. And he's calling me. And he says, look, I need to talk. Sam called me about going on this trip, and I'd like to talk to you in detail about it. Well, I'd already had my recorder running. My tape was prepared for the Vietnam,

the Vietnam or Vietnamese gang case. So I said, look, I am just getting ready to go into a bank to close on a loan. Can I call you back later this evening? He said, yes, of course. So we finished up doing the drug deal with the Vietnamese. I go back to the FBI office, get a new tape. And I'm sitting, we had a room that was quiet, that was soundproof. So you couldn't any noises outside.

So I called Dick Stutzman. Mark, we're in the, I make the call. He says, look, Sam called me. I'm worried. I said, about what? He said, well, my brother is a social worker. I've explained to him about this trip we're going on. And he says he thinks it's a sting operation.

And I said, okay. So he literally laid out our operations order. he goes, if I were the FBI, he said, are you aware that Bush signed legislation that if you travel with intent to have sex with a minor that's a violation, even if you don't have the sex, that's a new federal law? He lays out the statute. He says, so if I'm the FBI, I would essentially just set up a phony travel agency and have a send-in money to reserve a spot and then as soon as everybody shows up because we're traveling in interstate commerce,

then you just arrest everybody. That's what I would do. And I'm sitting there and I know I'm getting this smile on my face. And I said, Dick, I understand completely. And he says, you know what? I don't even think I know you. And it was like I was kind of hurt. I, Dick, I sat across from you at dinner at the Brazilian restaurant where my stomach was upset

and I was farting all night. You don't remember me? And I said, well, I was at the conference. Oh, you were. Now, keep in mind, Mark, there's only 17 of us at the conference. So it's like, okay, but you didn't remember me from the conference. So I said, well, I don't know what to tell you. I said, I've been in the organization for years, which really wasn't true.

I've written for their magazine. I said, the reason I was with Sam was to write this article for the magazine. All I can tell you is my friend went down last year and nobody got arrested and he had a great time. And if you don't want to go, that's fine. I mean, I wouldn't go. But when we come back and tell you that we had a great time and we're going to go again, you'll probably be wondering, well, did they really have a great time or were they arrested? And now they're working for the authorities.

You know, it's a sting operation. And he goes, well, now that I know that you're, that you are part of the organization and that you're trusted and that you've convinced me, I'll go. So he sends in his money. Wow. I cannot believe he described the entire operation. Oh, laid the whole thing out. Like, you were listening to it like, you should be an agent. I mean, you're pretty good at setting up stinks.

Yeah, could you just type this up for it? Yeah. Save me paperwork on the next time around on the renewal. So now you have, what was it? So we ended up getting seven guys that agreed to go on the trip. And we had set it up so that you could, we were trying to make this as convenient as cheap. as possible. I mean, we couldn't make it free. I mean, that would, that would cause some issues.

I'm independently wealthy. I couldn't just say, hey, I'll pay everybody's airfare. Now, David did use points to get free flights for Paul. So Paul, Todd, and David flew into San Diego. The other four guys flew into Los Angeles. So they were going to get on the boat in Los Angeles and then come down to San Diego and then we would the seven of us or the eight of us then would go down to to Ensenada for the BBMB. The problem that we had with this case was you have to meet the elements of the offense. So you have to travel in interstate or foreign commerce with the intent to have sex. The FBI had had an issue with the case out of, it was out of the night circuit Court of Appeals, the federal district in the west coast of California.

It was a Disney executive out of, I believe, Seattle that had met a girl online who happened to be an undercover FBI agent posing as a teenage girl. They were having chats back and forth, and he flew down from Seattle to have sex with the girl, with the 13-year-old girl. but he was coming to business meetings with Disney. So in his conversations, he had made the point that I'm coming down for business meetings. You know, while I'm down there, let's meet up and let's have sex. Let's say, I mean, I'm kind of paraphrasing all this.

Well, his defense was that his primary purpose of travel was not to have sex. His primary purpose of travel was a business meeting. So therefore, he didn't violate. the statute because that wasn't the purpose of his travel. I can't remember how that was ruled, but at that point, that was an element. So we had to, in my conversations with everybody, I had to make it clear that you're coming, your primary purpose of travel. We didn't want David, who was in Chicago saying, oh, it's snowing, it's cold.

I'm just coming. I don't care whether we have sex. I'm just coming down there to get to one. warm weather. So I set up in all the phone conversations that their primary purpose was to go to the B, B, B, and B. Now I have to set up what are the sex acts that they want. We have to make it clear that they want sex. So my deal was that there are boys down there, but not every boy will do everything. So I need to know one, what is your age of preference, which is a common question that's a very, it's almost like who's your favorite football team or your, I know you're a soccer fan, who's your favorite soccer team, that kind of deal. So what is your age of preference and what sex acts do you want done? Do you want anal or oral or what do you want done? So it was very, so we had it very clear. Every one of the guys, wanted between a 10 and 12 year old boy, and I think almost everybody wanted anal sex.

And so we had, so we get all this cleared on the tape. Now we have a somewhat of a jurisdictional issue. The California U.S. Attorney's Office read the statute to mean they didn't really violate the law until they got on the boat. the U.S. Attorney's Office in San Diego said once they've traveled, once they land in San Diego, they violated the law. So we have this. The issue comes up, we can't really arrest the guys in San Diego before we arrest the guys in L.A. But L.A. is saying they've got to get on the boat.

So everyone's flying in on Thursday. They're going to get on the boat Friday morning. and that's when we will affect the arrest when everybody's getting ready to get on the boat. In a conspiracy, typically most jurisdictions, if you can back out of the conspiracy. So I can negotiate to have my wife killed.

I can talk about it. I can agree to pay you. But then at the last moment, say, wait a minute, no, I don't want her killed. I'm not going to pay you. I don't want to kill, and I backed out of the conspiracy. So now I haven't violated the conspiracy laws because I backed out of the conspiracy. It doesn't rain much in California.

It poured that whole week. We had what they call El Nino's and it's just pouring. I mean, you've got to be crazy to get on a boat in this weather. So everybody shows up in L.A. in San Diego on Thursday. night. It's pouring all night. I'm worried that they're going to back out and just say, look, let's just go, let's go next month or let's wait till next year, but I'm not getting on the boat. At one point, I offered to the three guys that we had in San Diego, I just offered to them, look, let's just, I'll drive us across the border. Let's just get in a car and we'll drive across the

border because we, our U.S. attorney had already said they'd violated the law. No, no, no. We'll still take the boat. It's going to be okay. So we set it up. Again, it takes the boat a couple hours to get from L.A. It's Saturday, it's Friday morning. We're all, we get up, we're staying in a hotel. We're in the hotel room that night. I had had some medical issues. I had actually been in a intensive care. Two days, the weekend before this came down, I'd been in intensive care. I had gotten out of the hospital on Monday, on Thursday. The Nambla guys are coming in. I developed phobitis in my vein from where they'd had the port in my vein. So I am sitting in the motel room with hot packs. And I look like death warmed over. And I didn't have to act. So these guys were,

We're so generous and so kind. So we've got videotape and I'm not saying a word and they're just going over. Dave is going over all the stuff that happened in Thailand and Mexico. Todd is talking about an incident he had in Bahamas. Paul is talking about a boy that he had seduced using his corvette. That was kind of his enticement. to get boys talking about a situation where he was a big brother and his roommate saw him do something inappropriate and called big brothers.

So they took the way. So they're laying out essentially their criminal history. All on your recording. And all on the recording. And I'm just sitting there. And again, I mentioned that David's humorous. And Todd, who's the dentist, he's saying, I don't understand. I'm not sure a 10 or 11 year old can essentially take anal sex, you know, and then they joke about, well, they'll be incontinent, but just give them to pens, you know, the rest of their life.

I mean, it was just, it was so cold, it was so, it was, it was so dark, it was so depraved, it was so evil the way they were joking about thinking they probably could damage these kids by doing an animal. sexual sex and it was just a big, just a big joke to them. So again, I was sick, but I, it worked out perfect because we had a very quiet recording. We didn't have traffic. It wasn't at a dinner table in a noisy restaurant or something. We sit up the next morning. We get up. My case agent calls me, when we're having breakfast together, my case agent calls me, he said, okay, they just arrested everybody in L.A. And I said, hey, that was the boat captain. They're leaving L.A. now.

They're probably going to be down here in three hours. So I was like, now we've got to drag this thing out for three hours. Let's hope nobody backs out. Eventually, I kind of look at my watch and say, okay, let's get ready. Let's go over to the harbor. And we were just, we'd be just a short distance. So we get in my undercover car. We're driving over.

It's raining. We get out of the car. We got their bags. We're walking toward the dock where the boat is supposed to land. There is no boat, but where the boat is supposed to land. And all of a sudden, I hear the shotgun rack and freeze, FBI, you're under arrest. And I let out this unmanly scream. And, oh, I can't.

What is it? FBI, you know, all this kind of stuff. And one of my buddies was on the SWAT team. I've, I've throw my crutch up in the air and act like I'm feigning. And he catches me right before I land in a puddle. So they cuff me. They cuff everybody and take everybody away. But, and then they, so again, it's one of those deals. I was arrested with them. So when they, when they get in, they're all kind of giving it up in the sense that, you know, Bob's telling this story. Bob undercover Robert Wallace is telling this story, and that's, you're not telling us the same story. You know, so some of them are coming clean during the interrogation.

We get into court. There isn't much they can do, but there's a motion filed for gross governmental misconduct because we were essentially offering sex. I never even read the motion, so I'm not sure what it was. But Todd, the divorce dentist from Dallas had told his lawyer that I was too good, that I had to be a closeted boy lover because nobody could convince essentially professional boy lovers that they were one of them. So in the motions hearing that David's lawyer brought, David Myers' mayor's lawyer brought,

he raised the fact that I had played on his client's psychological issues. And I kind of laughed. And I said, I never even took the course in college. Your client's a PhD psychologist. I'm playing on his issues. But because I knew that Todd had told his lawyer I was too good when the prosecution, what is your name, Robert Hamer, what did you do, FBI agent? What is your specialty in the FBI?

And I said, I've specialized in undercover. I listed 20 undercover operations that I had done because I wanted it on the record that, no, this isn't my first undercover case. No, maybe I am a closeted person. Because that's why I was able to be successful and sort of went down what you and I have talked about in these podcasts. This mafia. Contract killer. Russian game.

Burglare. International arms dealer. All this kind of stuff. And so those guys ended up, after they lost that motion, they pled out. And then we go, Sam Lindblad is the only one that actually. went to trial. He said not guilty. He pled not guilty and then was convicted and did got 30 years. Wow. So everyone got convicted. Yeah. And do you know. Oh, and I kind of forgot, Jeff DeVore, my ordained minister slash chiropractor, before we even went on the trip, he called me right

before Christmas. The trip happened in February. So he called me right before Christmas to have lunch. And so I met with him for lunch, and he hands me a thumb drive. And he said, essentially, Merry Christmas. I think you might find this interesting. I know you lost your computer Christ and you lost your pornography collection. So we went back and checked. There were 125 images of men having sex with boys and eight videos of men having sex with boys on. on what he'd given me.

So we ended up convicting seven members of Nambla's inner circle on travel with intent to have sex. And then we got Jeff for the distribution of child pornography, which that carried a minimum mandatory five years. So he got five years for that. He got five years. Everyone else do you know roughly how long was like? Yeah. And that was, that was disappointing.

Sam Limbaugh, I got 30, which, that's good. Which I was good. David R. Busby, Greg Nuska, who was the, who learned about it at the Boy Scout meeting. He ended up, I think he got 14 years. And all the rest got between two and three years. And again, it was frustrating. It was frustrating. The lawyer or the judge in L.A., a federal judge.

judge a female and you're bringing all this crap out. You know, in the sentencing reports, all this is brought out about they want to have anal sex and everything. She says on the record, well, this is kind of sex light. What? Because there were no children actually harmed in this case. So was sex light. So she gave him between 24 and 36 months.

And it was just, you. got to be kidding me. But it was... But they went there for the explicit purpose. Exactly. Yeah. They went there for the explicit purpose. And some of them said on record that they had done things in the past.

Exactly. And that didn't factor? Everyone had traveled in the past to do something. On the record. You were able to record all that. Yeah, record all. And that didn't factor into the sentencing at all? Like, oh, they claimed to have done things?

Not for her. I mean, that seems extremely. extremely lenient. Absolutely. Yeah. Is that a jurisdiction thing? Is that because it was Los Angeles? I think so.

I don't want to get into politics, but I learned I was always kind of a one-issue man. And it was like the judiciary. And we used to kind of joke. The Ninth Circuit is called the Ninth Circus. I mean, because they've been overturned by the Supreme Court more than any other jurisdiction. Oh, really? Yeah.

And so it's pretty liberal. But we used to kind of joke that, well, when you got to sign the case, which judge you're going to get? And then you can decide whether it's worth the case or not because, you know, it's not worth to put in hard years, risk your life, work all these extra hours if the federal judge is going to end up giving probation or something like that, which is why I became a fan of the men of mandatory laws because the judges, it took away a lot of their discretion. Right.

That you've got to give them this amount of time. If this had been tried in Florida or Oklahoma or something like that. Florida is their, I guess you can say great on sex offenders. I mean, they, on sex, at least they were when I was on the job. In terms of conviction. Yeah. sentencing and convictions and what happened to the rest of Nambla and to Peter you know the they had they'd filed motions that I violated their First Amendment right of association and that

was that was all brought up into David mayor the the psychologist and his motions hearing how I violated the first amendment that was part of the gross governmental misconduct that by infiltrating I'd violate the First Amendment. The organization, as I understand it, it's still an online presence. They say they don't meet anymore. There's no real need for an organization or to meet because you've got chat rooms now. And you've got other opportunities to meet people. A lot of this, what you found, it was just an opportunity for like-minded men.

to sit around and talk about it. Well, now you can go into a chat room and you never have to meet face-to-face and you can talk about it. Or if you want to meet face-to-face, we just set up an appointment. We don't have to have a meeting that the FBI could possibly monitor.

So if you go on, I think if you go on the website, it does say that they do have a membership, but I haven't seen too many. letters to the editor on the age of consent laws. So the former president, did he ever get convicted? No, not in our case. Nothing ever happened to him?

No, I don't. Oh, wow. That's my knowledge. He may still be alive. He lives in the Bronx. You can have him on the show. I'm okay. Yeah, good.

I mean, that's good. I'm almost, you know, we've talked about this. This is not a pleasant conversation. This is not a pleasant podcast. I'm hoping that by talking about this, there isn't the David R. Busby, Greg Nuska, that's out there listening going, oh, wow, there's an organization that supports all this. Well, let me join. I'm hoping that more of your listeners are thinking, boy, this is wrong.

This is evil. This is disgusting. And these people are really out there. And they're infiltrating and intentionally trying to get close. close to kids. I mean, that to me is like the most insidious part is that they're trying to find proximity and they're praying on vulnerable families that might not be, you know, fully together in order to get what they want. Absolutely. And yeah, I wonder if there's more protections that people can take specifically online. I mean, it's like so rampant online as in a way

to protect kids. I'm curious if you've read anything or even in your work as things have kind modernized. Do you have any advice? That's not really my expertise, but I do know there are organizations out there. I think if you Google it, you know, there are ways to identify websites, or at least there are ways to protect, keep websites off your children's phone, you know, that type of thing. Obviously, from a kid's standpoint, that's what we worry about. One of the, is kids getting access to these type of pornographic websites. One of the biggest problems that the FBI is seeing now is sexstortion, sexstortion, where you kind of have two different groups.

You've got the predators that live here in the United States that go online posing as a little kid or a teenager or whatever and go into these chat rooms or whatever they're called now and making connections and then sending, let me send you a picture of me naked. And of course it's not him because it's a 50-year-old guy in a basement and sending the picture and then saying, okay, now you send me your pictures. And that person succumbs and sends a picture of himself or herself.

Well, now the predator has that picture. and it's if you don't send me more pictures, I'm going to expose you. I know what school you go to because you've told me all about you. You've told me your friends. I've actually hacked into your computer. I know your contacts. I know your Facebook page, your Instagram page.

I'm going to post this. If you don't send me more picture, I'm going to post it. The others are, it's happening here in the United States, but essentially guys from overseas that are doing the same thing. And if you don't send me 500 bucks or a thousand bucks, I'm going to post your pictures. And so these kids are doing it. It's all over the country that good kids are getting caught up in this and end up committing suicide or something. Because it's like, oh my gosh, they're going to, I'm going to be exposed.

I can't afford the money. This is going to ruin me. I'm not going to be able to get into college or I'm going to lose my job. So they've committed suicide. From the FBI's perspective, what is the best way to handle that if you are entrapped in that type of extortion scheme? Come out. You know, tell your parents, tell the, please contact the FBI. And the FBI are working those cases.

And I know recently, I don't know how recently, but within months, they've just, they've got an extradition on some guys out of Uganda that we're setting this up. Really? Yeah. Oh, wow. So there is some legal recourse. You can actually get them. Yeah.

Wow. I mean, that's good at them. But it's just, it's one of these things that's going on. I mean, the Internet is great. It's done a lot to make society better, but it's done a lot to make society worse. And it's a tool that can be used for good or evil, just like everything else. Yeah. Are you proud of the work that you've done with the Nambla case? Are you happy with the outcome? Do you think the FBI should continue to do these types of cases? Are they continuing to do them?

Like, how do you feel everything kind of wrapped up? Yeah. No, I'm extremely proud of the work we were able to do with Nambla, the fact that essentially that organization is just an online presence. And we put a dent in it. And we took some predators off the street for a little while, at least. Some of them are still in. But they're on the registry for life. They're on the registry for life. We ruined their lives.

Well, they run their lives. They ruined their lives. Yeah. And we exposed them when we protected kids. I think one of the toughest emails I got earlier, on when my book first came out was an email from somebody and he said, I read your book. Thank you so much. I wish there was someone like you out there protecting me when I was getting molested. And so it's kind of like, well, if we've protected one or two boys, I mean, Sam Lindblatt,

30 years, he groomed 200 and admitted to molesting 70. Well, he's not doing that now. And let's let's hope that if there's any molestation taking place in the prison system, it's him that's getting it. Well, Bob, I appreciate the time. This is, I've done a lot of podcasts and I've talking to a lot of people that have done and seen and experienced crazy things. And this is probably the most disturbing. But by the end of it, I'm extremely grateful for your work and what you've done.

And I'm optimistic that there's more people like you both. and sort of private security, as well as the bureau and government agencies that are going after people like this and really trying to take down these people with, you know, malignant intentions for kids across, you know, the country and across the world. I mean, sex trafficking seems like it's only going up. I've read, you know, some vague numbers that globally it's huge and sex tourism is huge and it's happening in America more and more. And it, I don't know, I'm grateful that there's people like that.

like you that are out there really taking these guys out and putting them in prison. So thank you so much. Thanks, Mark. I appreciate you having me because I've done some other podcasts. Quite frankly, not as good as yours. I mean, I enjoyed, this is the first time I've done it in studio. Usually it's a Zoom call. But when I was first contacted by Jaime and you said you wanted to do Nambla, it's like, yeah,

most people don't want to even talk about it, I want to steer clear of it. So I thank you. and I admire you for being willing to take this on. Now, let's just make sure you air it. But, yeah, I mean, it's not a pleasant, it's not a pleasant topic, but it's out there. So, so wake up. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Bob. Let's do this again soon next time you're back in New York, all right? Okay, dope. Thank you. Appreciate you.