Camp Gagnon - FBI Agent That Hunted Chinese Mafia

Episode Date: October 22, 2024

Former undercover FBI Agent Bob Hamer is BACK in the tent to take us on a deep dive into Operation Smoking Dragon, where he took down an intricate Chinese crime syndicate. What started as a mission to investigate the illegal flow of counterfeit cigarettes turned into uncovering a sophisticated network of characters and criminals that were also bringing in counterfeit money, drugs and war-grade weapons into the United States. Follow along as the Forrest Gump of the FBI takes us through the start of his decorated 26-year career in the FBI and one of his biggest assignments on this episode. WELCOME TO CAMP!  Check out Bob's first episode if you haven't already: https://open.spotify.com/episode/3hh6PSHVunllmPsCxWKQLF?si=d2ec467ae79645cc Edit and Produced: Christos Papastefanou Shoutout to our sponsors - Whoop, MDhair, Morgan & Morgan, and Bluechew. - Customize your hair growth treatment with MDhair! Visit https://bit.ly/camp-mdhair - Visit https://Join.whoop.com/Camp for a ONE MONTH FREE TRIAL with Promo Code: CAMP TIME STAMPS: 0:00 Intro 1:13 Bobs Background + Joining FBI + Undercover Work 9:49 Being Accepted to FBI Academy 13:30 How are Agents Selected 17:34 Operation Smoking Dragon + Counterfeit Cigarettes 20:41 How Were Cigarettes Imported? 22:50 Meeting The Informant + Cafe Roma 26:14 Can You Trust Informants? 28:08 Meeting The Bad Guys + Osteogenesis Osteomyelitis 32:00 Re-routing Counterfeits to FBI Warehouse + KGB Mob 43:07 How Much Was a Shipment? + Destroying $250,000 Investment 49:52 Meeting Chen, Jenny, and Michael + Ecstasy + Crystal Meth 55:14 How Bob Stayed Safe + Payments 57:07 Empathy For Criminals? 1:02:35 Circulation of Money and Drugs + Fake Viagra 1:06:44 Finding Stolen Guns + Cambodian Bribe 1:15:50 Chinese Involvement + Chen Chiang Liu 1:19:43 Counterfeit Postage Stamps + Counterfeit Credit Cards 1:24:42 Was Chen Intimidating? 1:26:26 Supernote Investigation + New $100 Bill 1:40:30 North Korean Involvement + Wilson Liu 1:47:27 Casino Money Laundering + Identifying Counterfeit Bills in Court  1:51:42 Obtaining The Supernotes + Ritz Carlton Story 2:01:42 How Were Supernotes Distributed? + Seizing The Money 2:07:36 Was Bob Scared? + Jenny’s Birthday Party + Chen’s arrest 2:14:55 What Classifies as Entrapment? 2:18:09 Building a Meth Lab in North Korea + Bob’s Aliases 2:23:47 Seeing Chen in Court 2:25:46 Bob’s Life After The Arrest + Fake Divorce 2:31:06 Bob’s Preparation For a Case 2:32:39 Outro

Previously on Camp Gagg. Nambla is the North American Man Boy Love Association, a group of adult men that are sexually attracted to boys. And today he is back in the tent to tell us about how he got his start in the FBI. The phone rings, Debbie knocks on the door, and I said, Debbie, we're going to be spies. Some of the most dangerous and terrifying missions he ever went on, specifically Operation Smoking Dragon, in which he took down an Chinese international crime syndicate. So that's when the big guy comes over from Hong Kong. So I said, what did he just say about

Jimmy? And she goes, oh, he said Jimmy going to be killed. They're willing to kill Jimmy. Why aren't they willing to kill you? I didn't even think about that. This is an absolutely fascinating episode that shows the inner workings of how the FBI actually takes down crime in America, as well as photos that have never been shown to the public before. So sit back, relax, and welcome to camp. Bob Hamer. How are you, sir? a little nervous, but I'm here, so. Don't be nervous. I've dealt with a lot of nervous people. Okay, I'm sure you have as well as an undercover guy. You have an absolutely fascinating story in a crazy life. I just want to give people a little preview of what they can expect. 26 years in the FBI. You have pretended to be a drug dealer,

a contract killer, a burglar, a international weapons dealer, white-collar criminal. We might have to bleep this one out. Pretended. Pretended. Pretended. You have infiltrated and gone undercover to take down basically every gang in existence. You name an ethnicity. That gang, Russian mafia, Mexican cartels, Sicilian, Costa Nostra, everything, even the Nambla case. You've done a lot of crazy things. You've dealt with a lot of crazy people and you've pretended to be many, many different people in order to do your job. So I'm curious, just as a starting place, can you tell me how did you get involved in the FBI and what drew you to doing undercover work?

You know, thanks for having me on the show. I got to tell you, I am a little nervous because I listen to your show and you do a great job. Oh, thank you so much. And so I'm a little concerned. You probe pretty deeply with your questions. I'm a pro. Yeah, you're a pro. Careful.

I've heard that. So, yeah, I spent four years on active duty in the Marine Corps and I was a judge advocate. I was a lawyer. I don't really tell too many people this, but I didn't like it. I grew up. I'm old. I grew up in the Perry Mason generation. I assumed everybody was innocent.

And at some point during the trial, the guilty person comes running in and says, I did it, I did it. Well, in the Marine Corps, everybody was guilty. And it was all a matter of is the confession admissible, is the evidence sufficient. It was never a who done it. And I had roughly 150 trials, everything from unauthorized absence to murder, but I hated being in the courtroom. And so these are Marines that are killing other Marines that you had to, you know, oh, wow. And that. So it was post-Vietnam, right?

I came on active duty in 75. So I actually enlisted in 70, but the Marines were pulling out of Vietnam. And then they said, you know, finish college and you can be an officer. And then they said, hey, we're short 110 lawyers. You ever thought of going to law school? And I said, yeah. And I said, well, go to law school. We won't bother you.

you come on active duty as a judge advocate. So from that standpoint, I finished my law school. I was licensed to practice. I go on active duty and I'm doing these trials. And it just, the courtroom had no excitement for me. It wasn't what I expected at all. And literally one day, I was stationed at Camp Pendleton out in San Diego. I was reading the LA Times, a sports section, and there's an ad, the CIA was looking for case officers. And I'm honestly thinking, this has got to be a joke. I mean, the CIA, they go to Harvard and Yale, and some guy opens up his coat and say, buddy, you want to be a spy?

And it was like, no, they were advertising for case officers. So I responded to the ad. The next thing I know, I'm told to report to 660 Front Street, which is a federal building in San Diego, anybody that's down knows it's the red. brick building down there. I go down. I walk into this room about twice the size of your studio. There are two chairs, no other furniture. This guy walks in and he's got a scar from ear to ear. And I'm going, holy crap, this is the excitement I'm looking for. I mean, this guy's got stories to tell. And I'm thinking back, he probably got hung up in the clothes line playing flag football as a kid.

But I just think it's exciting. So we have the interview. I can't tell you anything else about him but this scar. And it probably was a fake scar just because that's all I was focused on. I mean, you've had criminals on your show. You know, the best disguise for a bank robber is to wear a band-aid on your nose. And everybody says, I don't know what colored hair, buddy has a band-aid on his nose. You know, they focus on that.

So next thing I know, I get plain bond stationary. You've passed the initial assessment. And this is long before 9-11, but I say, we want you to fly back to Washington, D.C., do not tell anybody what you're doing, pay cash for everything, and fly it or an assume name. So I'm like, yeah, okay, this is that James Bond stuff. I'm excited about this. So I don't tell my wife what I do. I'm not telling the Marine Corps. I tell the Marine Corps that I'm taking a few days leave. I tell my wife I'm going back to D.C. for some Marine Corps business. I go back. They're giving me all these tests. I'm meeting it kind of a safe. house. I'm not going to Langley yet. I'm going to these buildings. They're testing me on geography, current affairs, language aptitude tests and everything. And I finish up, fly back to Camp Pendleton. I'm back in court doing trials. Next thing I go, another letter, plainhead stationary. I fly back to D.C. again, not telling anybody. I get back there and we get done with those interviews,

and the guy at the end of the day says, you can tell your wife, but nobody else what you're doing. And so I go back home and I said, Debbie, we're going to be spies. I said, here's what I'm doing. And I'm really excited. And we're not, I'm really not that cool and I'm not a big connoisseur of everything. But that night we went to eat at a French restaurant because we figured, okay, we better start getting international if we're going to be spies. And now I go back the third time.

Same thing, but I tell my wife what I'm doing this. I still don't tell the Marine Corps. I go back the third time and I pass a polygraph test. I mean, I'm at Langley now. So this is getting serious. And then one of the tests they gave me was a psychological profile. And in that test, they scored you from a zero to a 10. The psychologist comes in.

he looks at me, he looks at my test results, and he goes, I have never seen a zero personality. And to this day, my wife reminds me to put down the toilet seat and that I'm the only person ever declared a zero personality by the federal government. So at the end, the CIA passes. They didn't want zero personality in the case officer program. They kind of wanted threes and four. So they wanted you to be able to sidle up next to the diplomat from a third world country. A chancellor somewhere, kind of schmooze them.

Yeah. Which you could have done. Well, yeah, I think so because eventually I did. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I'm coming on the road. That's right. Pots Town, PA, Friday, November 8th, 2024. I'll be at Seoul Joles.

You can come see me do one hour of stand-up comedy, nothing more and nothing less. It's going to be an amazing time. and if you're not near Pots Town, don't worry because I'm coming to Stanford, Connecticut. I'm going to New York Comedy Club. That's right. They have a bunch of amazing clubs in the city and also an amazing one in Stanford, Connecticut, November 13th. If you want to come hang out, come hang with me, say what's up. I'll be talking to everybody after the show. We'll be doing an hour of comedy, guys, stand-up comedy. It's my passion. It's what I love to do when I'm not inside this tent. So come kick it with me. A bunch of crazy stories. We'll have a great time.

You can find the link at my Instagram. Get it in the story. I'll put it in the description. I can't wait to see you guys there. Let's get back to the show. Hey guys, really quick. Did you know that on this day in history in 1582, Pope Gregory introduced the Gregorian calendar, which most of the world still uses today? Or that in 1957, the Soviet Union launched Sputnik won the first artificial satellite into orbit. This event triggered the space race between the USA and the USSR. I learned these facts pretty recently, actually, on the Smoor Camp newsletter. That's right. Smoor Camp, the inner sanctum. For this kind of show, we do a ton of research. I have different researchers and friends that help me find information and not everything can make the episode. Either it's like too crazy. It's too like weird or gory and it will get demonetized on YouTube. Or it's just additional and it doesn't always make it, but it always makes it into the Smore Camp inner sanctum newsletter. So if you were interested in expanding your mind, learning new information and being the most interesting person into every room you step into, check it out in the description or this QR code right here. Now let's get back to the show. So I ended up, the CIA passes. In the meantime, I'd applied to the FBI.

I had passed the oral exam. I'd pass the written exam. I was on the list to go to Quantico, Quantico, Virginia, which is where they have the FBI Academy, and they had a hiring freeze. So I'm getting out of the Marine Corps. It's a four-year commitment. They won't let me change my MOS, my military occupational specialty. So I can't become something.

I can't become an intelligence officer, an infantry, or anything like that. They say, if you want to stay in, you've got to be. be a lawyer. I don't want to be a lawyer. So I'm getting out. The CIA doesn't like me for my personality. The FBI is on a one-year hiring freeze. I interviewed for a job in Los Angeles. To this day, I can't tell you what that job is. I don't even remember. A blockbuster video? Something like that. Yeah, I turned on my zero personality and the guy hired me. And it, Mark, it is literally Monday. And I'm getting out on Friday. And I won't say Debbie and I had a

an argument, but I slept on the couch that night. And I prayed to God. And I said, God, you know we tied. You're going to get more money if I take this job in Los Angeles. But I really wish the FBI or the CIA would call. I swear this is true. I promised you at the beginning. I would not lie on this podcast. I'm sitting on the John where I do my best reading. The phone rings. Debbie knocks on the door. and she says, it's for you, and it's the FBI. I finished my paperwork. I rushed to the phone. I pick it up, and they said, are you still interested in the FBI?

And I said, yes. They said, well, we had someone drop out of our next class. Can you be back in Quantico in 30 days to begin a career in the FBI? And yes. So that began my career in the FBI. And I will say I'm not here to preach, but throughout my career when I had the really tough times, I just remembered that when I prayed, he needed a zero personality in the FBI. And so in some of the really difficult cases, I just kind of thought, there's a reason why I'm here.

I'm not sure what it is, but there's a reason why I'm here and it got me through. So as you mentioned in the introduction, I spent 26 years in the FBI. much of that undercover and much of that, I always say my favorite class in college was deviant behavior. And so I either arrested everybody we studied in that class or I portrayed everybody we studied in that class. Wow, you might be the only person ever to be happy to get a call from the FBI. Isn't that correct?

Yeah, yeah. Normally when someone's wife is like, the FBI is calling, it's never good. Yeah, no, tell him I'm not here. You were excited. Oh, yeah. Let me fit. You probably didn't even wipe. You were like, let's go.

You just ran straight out. Probably not. Now that I think about it, I don't remember. That was the moment. What's that famous, I think it was a Denzel quote, I think, in that movie. The two most important days of a man's life. The day he's born and the day he finds out why. Yeah, Mark Twain.

That was the day you found out why. Yeah. Yeah. In terms of the FBI, that was the day I found out why I was in the FBI. Wow. Okay. So you say Denzel. So it's like, I want to be Robert McCall, Denzel, Washington equalizer,

When I grow up, that's always who I want to be. And I was throughout my career, I was kind of closer to Don Nott than I was. Well, I would want to know kind of where you want to take this. So tell me, what is the highest profile case that you did in your 26 years? We can go through all of them, but I just want to start with the one that you find the most thrilling. Well, I have to say toward the end of my career and just so the audience, knows. This isn't TV. I mean, in the FBI, the supervisor doesn't come out to the squad bay and say, hey, we need somebody to play a contract killer today who wants to do it, and you raise your hand. I mean, in the Bureau, they carefully select the undercover agents. Now they have a very difficult, not every agent wants to be undercover, but those who do have to go through several interviews and then there's a pretty intense two-week selection process. The Bureau wants you to

think it's like Bud's training, but it's not. But like the last class they had, only half the students were selected. You know, they got, they washed out half of them. And that's about now with their undercover program, about half of them wash out. And what would preclude someone from being an undercover agent? In terms of the training, it's the inability to either think on your feet or to lose your cool, to, I'm not sure. Because you always got selected. Well, I mean, I was sort of grandfathered in, but now, yeah, they have, they look for things. You know, it's, I talked to undercover agents now to classes, and it's not Miami Vice.

You know, you don't go in there trying to be cool and and beat up the guy, you know, verbally assault him and everything. For the most part, that doesn't work. And one of the reasons, you don't want to be, you don't want to look worse than the bad guy in front of the jury. So, you know, I told you before we started, I'm the forced gump of FBI undercover agents. I mean, I have had a fascinating career, but I'm not a smart man. And I play stupid really well.

Almost too well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, as the undercover age, you don't want to come off as a know-it-all. You want to come off as, what is this? We'll get into the details, but like in this case, we're going to talk about Operation Smoking Dragon. At one point, one of the targets of the case brought. me ecstasy. Now, up until that time, I have purchased millions of dollars of heroin and cocaine.

I had never seen ecstasy. So rather than trying to be cool and saying, oh, yeah, man, the E, the party drug, I know this. It's like, what is this? And she goes, oh, this is what we call candy. This is, this is E. This is ecstasy. Where do you make it? Oh, we, it's made in Amsterdam. I just, Oh, how, do you smoke it? What do you do? No, no, you take the pill. So, you know, you get into court and it's like, no, I, I didn't, I didn't force her to do it. But it's clear to the jury that she knew what she was talking about.

She wasn't, she didn't, she couldn't come in and say, oh, I thought they were tick-tacks. And that's why, you know. Yeah, he said it was candy. So I said it was candy. Yeah, the more cool you try to be and the more suave and, oh, I know what this is. You're leaving too much unsaid. And when it comes in front of a jury or into a court, you can't go buy off what's unsaid. You have to go buy off what is said.

Exactly. So you being able to kind of play a little coy is able to draw out much more information. And I'm sure that's why many of your cases end up getting prosecuted. And you got convictions on most of them. So I'm curious, can you take me through Operation Smoking Dragon? What is that? Yeah. Okay.

And before you actually go, I just want to set it up. Could you explain what is the crime that's happening? What are you kind of hearing? what is happening, you know, in the underground black market, and then when you step in, what is your mission? Yeah. So in this particular case, first of all, this is after 9-11. So the Bureau on the East Coast and the West Coast is concerned about what's coming into our ports.

How do we know, I mean, are terrorists coming in, our nuclear weapons, our biological weapons, are these kind of things coming into our ports? because, and it's still true to date, they only examine a small percentage of what's coming through, of the containers that come through. And, you know, you're in Florida, you're in New York, you see the ports, you see all these containers. Thousands. If you're from Iowa, you don't appreciate the fact that there are thousands and thousands

of containers that are coming through every day, every hour. So the Bureau was concerned about what was coming through. the Bureau also knew that there were a lot, there were counterfeit cigarettes coming into the country on the, on the East Coast and the West Coast. And these cigarettes are filtering down to mom and pop grocery stores, some of which were owned by people that were supporting terrorism. So the proceeds from these cigarettes, these counterfeit cigarettes, are going to pay terrorists overseas, finance terrorism overseas.

So, at least in Los Angeles, we were kind of going after the snake. We were going after the head of the snake, the people that are bringing the cigarettes in. We're going after the tail of the snake, the mom and pop grocery stores that are using the proceeds to finance terrorism. Now, fortunately for me, I got to go after the head of the snake and I wasn't wiping butt, you know, down there and the mom and pop grocery stores. And I don't smoke, so I can't tell you. And I actually thought about yesterday going into some place and seeing how much a pack of cigarettes cost.

But back when I was active on this case, a pack of cigarettes might cost five or six dollars a pack, at least in California. Well, you could get a carton of counterfeit cigarettes for $8 or $9. So you've got 10 packs to a carton, and essentially that one pack, for the less than two packs of real cigarettes, you're getting 10. So the proceeds are, it's greater than drugs, and no one was really working it. I mean, we have ATF, alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives, but they were busy doing a lot of other things. and the FBI, part of their mission is organized crime. So we had this organized criminal syndicate that is bringing in the counterfeit cigarettes. And so can you explain kind of how that black market proliferates?

You have counterfeit marlboroughs being created in China and North Korea. Yes. And then they're packaged and they look identical and I'm sure probably feel the same as American Marlboros. And then they're put into big shipping containers and shipped to the United States. Who's receiving them? And then how do they proliferate to the grocery stores? Okay, so if we had a pack of real marbles and the counterfeit marbles, you couldn't tell the difference. The packaging is identical.

That's this photograph here. We can put it up on the screen. Yeah, those are counterfeit. So you couldn't tell the carton whether it was real or counterfeit. You couldn't tell the individual pack whether it was real or counterfeit. You couldn't tell the master case in which 50 cartons are in there. but the tobacco was different because the tobacco they were using was either grown in North Korea or China. The tobacco we use, you know, North Carolina, Virginia, Kentucky, wherever they happen to.

So smokers could taste the difference. The smokers could taste the difference. Now, what was somewhat ironic on the West Coast, and I don't know on the East Coast, but the Asian community, the smokers, preferred the coolness of some. smoking marlboros because that was considered the elite of in over in in in china you're really cool if you're American marbles. So you smoke marlboros here, but they preferred the taste of the Chinese tobacco. That's hilarious. That's so funny.

You had you had sort of two different groups. You had the Americans that were going into the store and buying the cigarettes and thinking, oh, this pack doesn't taste very good. I'm going to throw it away and get another pack. and then you ended up getting real cigarettes. Because the merchants, they wouldn't do, the little mom and pop grocery store wouldn't do the entire thing in counterfeit cigarettes. They would put two in a stack of 10,

three in a stack of 10. So you kind of cut it. At some point, you're getting sort of a bad pack. So now how does it work? Is there a gang in America that's receiving these shipments? And the gang was called what? Well, they were sort of, it was a, Criminal syndicate that didn't have a name, but there were people underneath that that all

worked. We got, I was introduced to the top importer of counterfeit cigarettes on the the West Coast. So that was my introduction. What happened was, as I kind of alluded to, not everybody works undercover. You're sort of in a, I guess you could say there's a Rolodex. Your listeners may not even know where the rollerdex is, your listeners are too young. There was, you know, your names were in an undercover with what you look like, what your abilities are, your experiences. My particular case agent called the undercover coordinator and said, I'm looking for an older white man that can work an Asian criminal syndicate. So they contacted me. It turned out that they had an informant who was Chinese. He was working off a beef. He was trying to

He was going to get deported. He was trying to stay in the United States. And he told my case agent, here's the top importer of counterfeit cigarettes. He doesn't, this top importer doesn't really trust other Asians. He trusts older white people. So that's how I got selected. I met with the informant twice. Honest to Pete Mark, I couldn't pick him out of a lineup. I can't even tell you his name. I mean, not that I'm trying to conceal his identity. I don't remember his name. Yeah. But we ended up meeting at a restaurant in Los Angeles. I'll give a plug for the restaurant. Cafe Roma. I have taken mob guys there. I've taken people's there. I've taken. Cafe Roma doesn't know who I am. But the first time I ever went there undercover, I ordered Capolini Putanesca.

And it was like, boy, that tastes really good. Well, the next time I went in with a bad guy, I'm looking at the menu, and Capulini Putaneska is not on the menu. And I just told the server, I said, you know, I still do Capulini Putaneska? Oh, he'll make it for you. So it was like from then on, I would go in. So I'm taking you, you know, you don't know, you think I'm somebody else. We go in there and, you know, Mark's going to have the pizza. You know, tell him, I'll take the Kaplanie Poudinesk.

I know it's not on the menu. He'll fix it for me. Oh, yeah, of course. He'll fix it for you. So. All of a sudden, I'm like, who's this guy? So now I'm cool because, and I have to tell you, Cafe Roma is next to the cigar bar where Arnold Schwarzenegger used to hang out.

Oh, maybe he still does. Sylvester Stallone. I mean, you had famous guys coming in and out cigar bar, eating at Cafe Roma. so it had this whole atmosphere and you would have the paparazzi running around and it just, it sort of added to my image,

whatever my image was. So I take the Chinese guy, John Seto, I take him. That's the informant? Yeah, no, no, that's the bad guy. I see it. Now, when you're with the informant, how can you trust

that the informant is giving you good information? You can't. Do you vet it out? Well, you hope the case agent does. I mean, it all depends on the informant, the case, what his history is. I mean, in this particular case, if he would have screwed us, I mean, assuming I wasn't going to get killed, if he was going to screw us, he was going to jail and, you know, he wasn't going to prison. So you have to assume he's telling you the truth. your case agent is responsible for doing sort of the backstory, finding the history of both the

informant and the target. I mean, it's not like the informant's going to say, okay, I need to take you into this podcaster and, you know, who's a podcaster? You know, we'll just take you into the podcast. And it's like, okay, well, let's find out who Mark Gagnon is. Let's find his background. Let's listen to some of his podcasts. Let's make sure that this is legit.

Okay, now we'll bring in the undercover agent. So you kind of rely on that. But again, it's almost like you in an audience. You play the audience. You feel the audience. If they're not laughing at this line of jokes, maybe you go this direction. So that's how it works. I wasn't worried in this particular meeting that something was going to happen.

And if he bought my act, he bought my act. he bought my act. If he didn't buy my act, then the case agent has to regroup and decide what else. In this particular case, the informant, when I sort of gave him my backstory, he said, oh, that's perfect. That's exactly what my guy would be looking for. Okay. So now tell me, what is your cover? And then what is that first meeting with the bad guy? Okay. And how do you kind of set that up? And what are you trying to get out of him? So one of the things when I talk to young kids or young kids, the young agents that are trying to get in the other cover work,

first of all, you don't talk too much, which I know I'm probably talking too much, but it's the podcast and you want me to talk. Yes. So you let the bad guy do most of the talking if you can. I had one particular case where I was dealing with a guy that was literally had the biggest ego in the world. I mean, I've got a huge ego, but this guy's ego,

dwarf. I mean, I was dwarf compared to him. It was huge. And I called him Dr. D, the doctor of drugs. And I just want to sit at your feet and learn everything I can. He was an international heroin dealer. I just want to sit at your feet and learn everything. So he would just, he would pontificate for hours.

And I had one case, or one day, one meeting, I just decided how long I could go without. saying a word. And he literally talked for three pages, single space. And I just kind of looked at him and, you know, I was, I was like smiling and acting shocked and just to see how long I could go and let this guy talk. And you do that undercover agent for two reasons. One, you let him do all the talking if you can because it looks better to the jury. You're not playing Don Johnson in Miami Vice. and two, sometimes you've got to do the transcripts. So you don't want to sit there and talk about, oh, gee, how about them Dodgers?

Let's go through all this BS. And now you've got to sit there and transcribe it. But so with John, with this guy, I just explained that I was the older male. At this time, I was somewhat handicapped. I had, you have doctors that listen to your show. this makes no sense, but I had osteogenetic osteomyelitis to result in a spinalolytosis, which makes absolutely no sense, but it kind of gives headaches to anybody that's trying to transcribe tapes to spell out all the... I thought that was Mandarin. I thought you were speaking

a mandor for a second. But it, I had an arm crutch, and so it was just, it was handicapped, and we'll get into it later, but I started this with my Nambla case, because I just, in Nambla, where I was supposing is, I just kind of thought, you look like a cop, you smell like a cop, how can you get away with this? So it's like I started using the arm crutch, and I just thought, that's not a bad little gig. So I use the arm crutch, and it worked out well because then you don't have to do any heavy lifting when you got osteogenetic osteomyelitis was spinal loatheesis. Yeah, people look at you just like, oh, what a, what a,

Poor guy. Poor guy. This is like in court, sometimes they'll have like criminals that'll go into court and, and they'll give him a walker. They'll give him a cane. Like, and they'll look decrepit and it's like, oh, this guy couldn't have killed 10 people. He's, he's an old man.

So you've got the defense counsel there wiping the slobber off the. Exactly. Off his mouth. Exactly. Yeah, so I go in, you know, Sun Su, who wrote the art of war, says, pretend you're a weak so that the enemy might grow strong. So if you pretend you're weak, then they are trying to take advantage of you as opposed to, again, I hate to keep coming back to the Miami Vice thing, but instead of you coming on gangbusters, you let them pretend you're weak. Let them do this.

So my deal was that my grandfather had died. He had a fairly sizable estate. I had a trust account. I lived off the trust account. I had some property that I owned, and one was a warehouse out in Pomona, California. Anyone's familiar with Southern California, it's east of Los Angeles. We had this warehouse set up, so we had the offices wired. We had the cameras in the warehouse and everything, and they could, they, my story was,

look, I've got, I have people coming in out of my warehouse all the time. If you want to bring your containers of cigarettes, you can store them here. Nobody knows. And part of my sales pitch was that I've got a couple guys that I know that worked the ports, customs and everything. Obviously, we were working with customs. They were cooperating with us. And when the stars line up, when my three guys are working the same shift, then I can get your container. through. So a container of 40-foot container of cigarettes, they're investing about a quarter of a million

dollars. They're making much, much more than that. But with that, if that does get seized, now they're out a quarter of a million dollars. And they were finding that roughly maybe one out of ten of their containers was getting ripped off or, you know, discovered and they were losing it. So our deal was, and my case agent and I just talked about it, and we set up the deal for $60,000, we can, when it all lines up, we can get your container through the port. So we're bringing the containers in. Customs knows that they're letting them go through, and now we've got the, we have control of the cigarettes and they're coming to our warehouse. Now, sometimes they brought their own containers to my warehouse because my deal was I have the warehouse. I can protect your cigarettes in my warehouse. And then I have access to long haul truck drivers that can transport your cigarettes all across the country.

And, of course, our long haul truck driver was an undercover FBI agent. Right. Now, he's not suspicious of this because this deal seems too good to be true. This one guy comes in and solves all my problems. No, because, well, no. because he dealt with me. He went for it. He went for it.

And what happened was he did that particular, with that meeting, after we got done with that meeting, I think the decision was made, because it took a month before I heard from him again. And I think there was discussions about, okay, what do we do? Let's try him. Let's take the chance. Let's try him for one. for one container. And what really happened on this container,

they bring the container in, they get it through the port. They bring it to my warehouse. And now my long haul truck driver transports it to Allentown, Pennsylvania, where it, Russian mob guys are working and bringing them into New York City

to distribute the cigarettes in New York City. Actual Russian mob guys. Our intelligence was two of these guys were former Russian intelligence officers that were working in Allentown. Like former KGB? Yeah, KGB, military intelligence, whatever. That are now like mob? Yeah, you know, when the wall came down,

when the Soviet Union broke up, a lot of those intelligence agents that worked for the Soviet Union became criminals. You know, they used their intelligence, their smarts, they left Russia, they came here, and they set up here. And so they started dealing in these counterfeit cigarettes. Wow. That night was, let me back up. So we bring the container in.

It had snowed that day. The weather was horrible. We finally get it in. we get it delivered to their warehouse. I'm old. I have to go to the bathroom. So there's no other car, because it snowed at this storage facility, there were no other cars parked there but two cars.

And I knew from our FBI agents in Philadelphia what the one guy's car was. So I get out of the car, handicap, walk out of my rental car, walk over to his car, at my pants and I urinate all over the guy's front tire. And all of a sudden they come out, what are you doing? You know, I said, oh, man, I'm sorry, man, I got, I got prostate issues, you know, and I just had to take a pee. And so now my truck driver shows up with the cigarettes. So they unload the cigarettes. What, and did you pee on his car on purpose? Yeah. But why? Because it was there. Like, is this a part, is this a mind trick or is this is you having fun?

Yeah, well, I'm chasing the adrenaline dragon. So it's like, I got to get the adrenaline flowing. So what can I do to screw with them? I mean, I enjoy screwing with it. We can get to this, but I love playing music in the car. So I got the bad guys in the car and I'm playing Folsom Prison Blues, Jail House Rock. I mean, if it's got a prison theme, I'm playing it in the car. and you got the bad guys rocking to the thing.

We'll get into the weapons deal in this case. But at one point, I've got one of our main targets who set me up with the guy who set me up with the Chinese generals on this $60 million shoulder fire missile deal. Every time he got into my car, my undercover car, which was about six or seven times, I had it queued to try. to Charlie Daniels song, UnEasy writer, and the first line you hear on every tape, on every consensually monitored tape, is, don't you know what this man's a spy? He's an undercover agent for the FBI.

So, what? This is not a part of the brief. This is just you fuck with them. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You're an insane person. I just, I just, I just love screwing with them.

I almost wonder if that, like, lowers their defense because you're doing something. so blatant, like so crazy, that they're just like, oh, there's no way this guy's a Fed because he's playing the Fed song. Like, what are the odds that this guy would do that on purpose? Turns out 100%. My friend of mine, another FBI agent, we were the first two FBI agents to actually work Black Street gangs in Los Angeles.

And then they set up this, a squad, and then we started doing it. But Tom and I were the first two. And eventually we set up a buy program. So I've got longer hair, not as long as yours, but I have longer greasy hair. And I'm driving a beat-up pickup truck. And I'm driving in south central Los Angeles and the middle of the night buying rock cocaine from selected gang members. I mean, it's to the point that you'd have, it'd be midnight. And you got eight and 10-year-old kids run up to your car trying to sell your drugs.

And, you know, it's like, get your ass out of here, you know, bring me so-and-so. So, and one guy who was one of the top shot callers in the, the, Back Street Crips. We arrested, and we arrested 13 people in this first sweep. And he's sitting on the bench, cuffed. And I walked up to, I said, Eli, you had to suspect a white guy coming down here to buy drugs. And he's cuffed and he lowers his head. And he's not.

I talked with my own boys. We figured the police would be too stupid to send a white guy down here. See, sometimes are the people you most suspect. You know what I mean? If there's a white guy buying drugs, he's a cop. Yeah. Yeah, you know, and again, it comes down. You, I've always joked that I couldn't play my own self in the movie because you wouldn't, you're not going to have, you're going to have Chris Rock buying the drugs in South Central.

You're going to, you're going to have Jackie Chan. Right. Chargetting the smoking dragon. Yeah, it just doesn't work, but it does work in the real world. It's so obvious that there's, there's no way. They trust you. It's only, the more obvious you are, the less obvious you appear. So then back to you're transporting these counterfeit cigarettes to Allentown.

You pee on the guy's car. He's like, what the hell are you doing? So now, as any of your smokers know, there's tax stamps on packages of cigarettes. So he gets this, all the cigarettes are delivered to his storage facility there in Allentown. Nothing's happened. You know, the cops aren't running in. the feds aren't rushing in to arrest anybody. He takes me back to this house in Allentown where there's five or six of these guys that are there

affixing the counterfeit New York tax stamps onto the pack of cigarettes. And I always, as I talked to younger agents, that night we went to karaoke. And when Tiny, who is six, four, and about 300, pounds sings, you know, you always telling me did a great job, you know, even, and it was like a scene out of that rush hour, you know, where the girls are singing the karaoke and it's horrible. It was kind of like that. But so my point is, those cigarettes get delivered and nobody gets arrested. I had back to L.A. and I'm golden. I mean, the container arrived in the United States. It was stored at my warehouse.

It gets delivered to New York. The FBI has identified essentially a safe house where these cigarettes are going. We've identified some of these Russian mob guys, whatever you want to call them, that are distributing the cigarettes into New York. Now, at the time, I was told, I think a pack of cigarettes was going for like $11 or $12, and they're getting a carton for $8 or $9. Yeah, so it's like $10. So, so the, and nobody's working the case. So if you're a criminal, why would I even touch drugs? Why would I mess with that?

Yeah, I can make 10x. No one's looking into this. It's not really hurting anybody. It's like, if you're a criminal, this is, this is perfect. Yeah. Wow. And so how much, so take me through the money really quick. So how much would you have been paid or how much did you get paid?

I still charge him 60,000 for that. So I charge. For the storage and the shipping. Yeah. So I, I, my flat fee was 60,000. Got it. And we would use that. So now, from the counterfeit cigarette standpoint, I'm limited to about two containers a month.

That's customs is saying, look, we can't just be doing this and facilitating it. And what we did, we had to clear the packages through the CDC. So they had to, when these counterfeit cigarettes came in, my case agent went, then samples to the CDC. CDC would test them and then come back and say, you know, they're no more carcinogenic than the regular cigarettes and they're not poisonous. So now they could go into commerce. But what we're doing now, we're following the cigarettes. So if they would send a box truck to my warehouse and we've got the, they load up 40 master cases into a box truck and they're hauling off down somewhere, we may be calling a highway patrol

and saying, hey, here's the license plate, pull them over for a traffic stop or a violation or something. They pull them over, they seize the cigarettes. So occasionally we would deliver the entire 40-foot container to another warehouse. Well, then we would tell customs or somebody that this is where the cigarettes are. So they would go in and seize their cigarettes. Mark, for three years, I'm dealing with it. That never comes back on me.

They never figured out that a lot of the cigarettes got through, but many of them didn't. And it never got through. There was one. Again, it was just a fun time because when we, so the containers are sealed. There's a little seal. It's just a small wire and it's on the lock so that it knows that it hasn't been tampered with. So when you, when you, when that container is delivered to your warehouse, you can see that the lock, the seal that was put on in China has not been tampered with. Well, we had to break the seals in order to test the cigarettes.

So we would break the seal and then our guys would reseal it so that it didn't look like it was, that there's anything wrong. So on the one container when we broke the seal and we opened it up to take out the samples, I looked up. there was kind of a hole in the roof of the container. Not a big hole, but, you know, maybe a foot in diameter. So I took a hose and stuck it in there and just turned the hose on. And it soaked the entire $2,500, quarter million dollar investment. All of their cigarettes were soaked. So we reseal it.

We deliver this container to another warehouse. house and I know that this is going to, they're going to go crazy when they open this. So we go and I'm obnoxious about, John, I just want you, I want you guys to trust me. I mean, look, here's, nobody's, nobody's broken this seal. I want to break the seal. I want to be the guy that breaks the seal. So I break the seal. They open the door and this water is coming out.

And they are screaming. They're cussing me out and everything. And I go, well, look, there's a freaking sea. It's open up there. This thing was probably the top container. Got rained on. It got rained on. There was a storm at sea.

I said, you'd just tell them back in China to do a better job when they pack this crap. So, again, it never came back on me. We've essentially ruined a quarter of a million dollar investment. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I need to tell you how to get your health and control, okay? with this thing right here. It's called whoop.

I love it. I didn't think I was going to be a big whoop guy. I tried it out like a year ago, and I haven't taken it off since. I got a bunch of different bands, and I really enjoy it. All right, right now I'm doing sober October. I'm off the booze.

I'm off the K, off the fan, everything. I just caffeine and nicotine. That's all I've been up to. But there's nothing wrong with that. You know what I mean? There's no alcohol. Because alcohol is the thing that messaged your sleep up the most. And caffeine after 2 p.m.

That's just my personal thing. I'll be honest. I have a kid. I should not be getting this much sleep. but because I'm doing sober October, I've been sleeping unbelievably well. Last night I got 81% recovery with a newborn. Night before that, 74% recovery with a newborn. Night before that, 20%.

Whatever, all right? All I'm saying is if you're interested in getting control your health, you're going to go to join.wop.com slash camp, all right, C-A-M-P. That's where you're going to find me. I'm actually going to try to make a community. I don't know if this is even possible. I'm saying this without even really knowing the details. I'm going to make a community.

So if you are a listener to this program and you get a whoop or you already have a whoop, you can join me in our community. We can track our sleep together. We're basically sleeping together if you want to think about it that way. All right, every night, you and I snuggled up, cozy next to the campfire. So listeners of this show, you're going to get one month free when you join with the promo code camp. Check it out. Join.wop.com.

Let's get back to the show. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because, as you can see, there's a lot of nice hair on this program. If you're interested and taking better care of your hair, you can check. out MD Hair. MD Hair is an amazing service that delivers high quality products right to your door. And with MD Hair, they're going to be able to assess you and give you a customized package directly to your door for exactly what you need. With that first order, you're going to be getting customized hair wellness supplements, a customized treatment shampoo,

and then a customized treatment serum. I'm telling you, this is one of the nicest hair products you can get. It comes in a beautiful package. And tons of people have been using it to get stronger hair, healthier hair, and even regrow their hair that they've lost. It's great. They use AI and all of their services to make sure what you're getting is exactly what you need. When you sign up with MD Hair, what you're going to do is send them a picture

of your scalp. They're going to use AI and some of their experts in their team. They're going to analyze your head. They're going to see where you need help. Maybe it's a little dry. Maybe it's a little greasy. Maybe you have a receding hairline.

Maybe you're losing it from the back, all right? And if you're interested in getting better scalp health, if you want to get supplements that are going to make your hair stronger, look better, be more full, and even thicker. I want you to go to the link in the description right now. Go to MD Hair,

and I want you to use the promo code Camp G70. That's Camp G70 and you will get 70% off your first month. That's right. A customized package rate to your door, 70% off your first month. Let's get back to the show. It seems kind of small fries. Like, yeah, I mean, sure, it's a criminal enterprise. I get that. But you're getting guys selling cigarettes, you know? So John is the top importer on the West Coast of these counterfeit cigarettes. He introduces me to a female named Jenny who is kind of helping him. But her boyfriend is a fugitive from the United States living in China, and he's one of the top exporters of cigarettes. So he's, Jenny, Michael in China is getting the cigarettes, and again, they're either

coming from North Korea or China, and he's the one that's arranging for the cigarettes to come over here. And so she introduces, or John introduces me to Jenny. So at one point, Jenny comes to me and she brings me some ecstasy. And again, as I previously mentioned, I'd never seen ecstasy. So that's when I said, where is it, what do you do? How do you do it? So part of my deal was that with my grandfather's trust, I was a semi-savvy investor and I had four or five clients that I managed their money, but I'm not a license broker

so you can't check up on me. I managed their finances and I take a percentage of the new profits. And essentially what I would do, I would be driving to the meetings. I'd listen to the business news and I'd find out that Gagnon LLC went up three points yesterday. And I'd get there and I'd go, you know, I got lunch today. Gagnon LLC was up three. I knew last week I knew that they were going to do this merger and it was going to go up. So I made a ton of money for my people.

So when, like, Jenny brought me the ecstasy, I said, what is it? She explains it all to me. I said, look, one of my guys owns a bar down in New Orleans. Let me see if he wants it. And so essentially I call up my case, hey, do we want ecstasy? She goes, and he goes, yeah, let's take ecstasy. And I said, okay, Jenny, yeah, I'll take some. So she starts bringing me ecstasy.

Well, again, I'm not a partier. But if you have ecstasy, then you got to have crystal mess. So then she's bringing me crystal meth. So now we're expanding into the ecstasy and the crystal meth. Again, it comes down to the music. I'm starting to make so much money that we're putting money in the undercover bank account. And my case agent's like, we don't need this money. Let's do something else.

So one of the other guys that I'm dealing with, I said, look, I'm not going to charge you $60,000. I need two kilos of meth. I'll charge you two kilos of meth. I know you're probably getting it for 15 or 20,000 a kilo. So two kilos is only costing you 40. I can turn around and probably make 100,000 piecing this out to my people down up in San Francisco and down in New Orleans. So he brings me two kilos.

And again, I'm thinking like TV show sound. soundtrack. And as he's handing it to me in my undercover car, I've got playing in the background, Harold Melville and Blue Notes, if you don't know me by now, you'll never, ever know me.

Diabolical. So, but if I'm in their position and tell me what's missing here, if I'm him, I would look at you and be like, okay, sure, this guy's trying to get some money, he's trying to make money doing this stuff, but he's living off his grandfather

There's trust or whatever. He's got money. He's independently wealth. He's making investments. Why is he willing to risk all of this and go to prison with me to just make a couple extra, you know, half a million dollars? Like, why is it worth it? And did you have, was there a cover built into that where you're like, oh, I did organize

crime before? Like, did he ever ask you? No. And, you know, it kind of comes down to that show American greed. You know, everybody wants more. And they understood that. I mean, they were making decent money. And, but they could have been making, you know, the guy, most of the guys I dealt with,

they could have, if they, they had the entrepreneurial spirit that they could have made this money doing something else. And, and again, again, I'm not trying to be Billy Graham here, but I would often say, you know, you know, if I can make this much money selling Bibles, I'd be selling Bibles. And I can understand why, you know, we can make more money doing heroin and cocaine. Because I went to jury to hear this, you know, and why are you doing this? Like, there was one time with Jenny, because we'll get back to Jenny. But it's like, Jenny, why are you? You're good.

You've got a good mind. Why don't you have a business? Oh, I'd rather party. I can make I can make money doing this and then I can still party at night. But so, so you, you kind of, you kind of got that. There's just that greed. More is better and, and they tested you out and it worked. So why not just keep on going with it?

But did they ever try to get collateral on you? Like, oh, like how do we make sure this guy doesn't try to screw us over? And if he does, this is how we'll get our get back. Well, we can get into the super note. but my deal was that I would open an escrow account with each container. It doesn't make sense, but I would open an escrow account so that you give me your bank account number. I'll give you my bank account number.

Here's the agreement. We're not saying this is for counterfeit cigarettes. This is for a shipment of usually it was like yard goods or sporting goods or something. Because they had to phony up the bill of lading. coming from China, coming from China and then to getting it through customs and everything. So they would fill it phony up the bills of lading. And we would set up escrow accounts so that if the container didn't get through, if I didn't deliver you the container, then this money automatically transfers to your account.

So they thought they had this guarantee and obviously every container did get through. So we never had to, we never had to utilize. Got it. The escrow. So they weren't paying you in cash. They would actually pay you through wire. No, they were, they were paying me in cash, but they just knew if it got screwed up that my bank would transfer the money to them. Got it.

So you would meet up with them and they would have a duffel bag of cash? Yeah. Yeah. They would always, they would always just bring like $60,000 in cash and just lay it on the table. Wow. And. Handshake and job well done kind of thing. Yeah, and with them, you know, I never counted it in front of them.

It was like, I trust you. You know, you're not going to screw me because if you screw me, I'm not dealing with you again. Yeah, so there's a mutual trust. Did you ever feel bad for them? Did you have empathy for any of these guys? No, never did. I know that that's, you know, people have kind of gone over to the other side, but I, or you feel sorry. I never did. I always was sort of able to separate that through.

And early in my career, one of my first undercover cases. In fact, it was Dave that worked for Joe Bonano. He sort of saved me in a meeting with some mob guys where they pulled out lines of cocaine and everyone was going to do the line of cocaine. And I kind of passed on it. And one of the guys pulls out a gun and points it at me and says, if you don't do the line, you know, we're going to blow your brains out. And again, I hadn't been trained. Now they go, you know, they have extensive training and all this. I hadn't. And I'm going to say it was a God thing.

I don't know, but I said, Joe, I got to tell you, I can't do cane. I can't even do lytocaine or novocaine at the dentist. So I'll do your stinking line, but I can tell you right now, my heart's going to stop. And you're going to have a hell of a time explaining to the paramedics. why I had a heart attack. And Dave says, I'm not going to do this either. I'm not into this, Joe. So it was like, oh, okay, so he puts a gun away.

But anyway, I come back to L.A. Because this was in Scottsdale, Arizona. I come back to San Diego. And I mentioned to one of the older agents that, you know, Dave, we had this Dave kind of cover. He went running to the supervisor saying, you know, I think, I think, is, I think he's going over the other side. I think he really likes this guy.

And so I got called in the supervisor. I said, I don't like this guy. I mean, yeah, this was a situation. And so I learned, I learned very early in my career that you can't trust other agents to kind of tell them what you think or what you feel. Dave was a, Dave was a funny guy, Mark, because, again, again, you. Again, you don't see this on TV, but my wife was pregnant with our second child. And the Bureau had a transfer policy. If you were in what they called a small office, and San Diego at that time was a small office,

you had to go to the dirty dozen one, a top 12 office. And I was getting transferred to Los Angeles. And our special agent in charge went to headquarters and said, look, he's in middle of an undercover case. It doesn't matter. He's got to go to Los Angeles. So we were going to have to wrap up this case in a hurry. And we still hadn't gotten to the point in Dave's case what we wanted to do. And I made up the story.

Debbie was pregnant. You know, you lie as little as possible, but you still lie. And I was sitting in my undercover car. He's sitting in the passenger seat. And I just said, I got to tell you something. I said, my wife's pregnant. you know she's pregnant. She's got this,

she's got inverted placentia. I don't know what that means, but she's, we've already lost one child and, and I'm not going to lose another. She didn't have it. I don't even know what inverted placentia is, but I,

I'm not going to lose a child. And there's a specialist back in Indianapolis that, that handles these, so we're moving back to Indianapolis. I was getting transferred to L.A., so I had to somehow get out of the picture. And I said,

So we're moving back to Indianapolis. And so, you know, this may be it. And he leans over and taps me on my knee. And he goes, have you ever thought of prayer? And we had never talked to religion before. And I said, no. And he goes, you know, I've been looking at this religion. It's called Christian Science.

And you can call them up. And they can pray for you over the first. phone. And he said, I'm really thinking of taking up the religion once I give up stealing. And I'm literally, because I'm crying about my wife. You know, I've got these fake tears and he believed the tears. And I'm over there, I'm chewing on my knuckle not to burst out laughing. And, you know, it's probably like the audience in your comedy show, you know, they're falling and all that. And so we very quickly after that, Dave got arrested for possession of cocaine and my case agents went in and we recovered a million dollars worth of stolen property that he had

done through our undercover work and all of this. But it was just this situation that, no, I never, I never went over to the other side in terms of my feelings, but Dave expressed more concern for my wife than any FBI agent, you know, because here I was my wife seven months pregnant and the Bureau's making me move to San Diego, or to Los Angeles. You know, they don't care. Yeah. It's the needs of the government.

It's not the needs of the employee. Whereas Dave's over here, been like, hey, let's pray. Hey, I'll pray for it. Wow, that is wild. So you're now working on the Smoking Dragon case. Back to this. So you're, no, you're good, you're good. This is, I'm here to get you back on track.

So you're dealing with the, the cigarettes for a couple years. And then you start getting into more drugs and to meth and things like this. They're buying your cover. Everyone's making money. They're making probably millions at this point. You're making hundreds of thousands at this point. And, uh, and it's all getting distributed to lower level drug dealers and they're all making money. So everyone's eaten.

And up into this point, I'm curious, do you know roughly like how much money you've made as like, uh, as the cover? I, no, I know at one point we had thrown out, I had thrown out the figure like a million bucks, but I know it wasn't that much. I mean, it was $700,000 or anything because when we get into the money, I'll explain, when I get into the counterfeit bills, I'll explain what I got it. So then how does it escalate from now drugs? And I'm also curious with the, with the cigarettes, you're getting cigarettes and the CDC's checking them out. And it's kind of above board, but now meth coming in. Yeah, we're not distributing the drugs. We're taking the drugs and telling them that my people in New Orleans or my people in San Francisco, they're the ones that are doing the drugs. God, so then the drugs get delivered to your guys in New Orleans and then it gets pulled out of circulation and they just pay for it. Yeah, we don't. I mean, the U.S. government can't put drugs like that until, in fact, it was a stupid, situation.

But at one point, one of the things they were dealing with were counterfeit pharmaceuticals. And when I say counterfeit pharmaceuticals, I'm not talking about little blue Viagra pills in a plastic bag. They were counterfeiting the containers that would go to pharmaceutical companies with this herbal Viagra that they were pushing off as the real stuff made by Pfizer, whoever made. whoever makes Viagra. And it came wrapped in the instructions. I mean, it's the same thing that when you go to the CVS or the Costco pharmacy that's in the back.

And they were selling the Viagra to online pharmaceutical companies in Canada. Well, at one point, they brought me a bag of what they said was counterfeit Viagra. and I was down in San Diego and they wanted me to deliver that bag to somebody up in Los Angeles. Well, it was herbal. It was an herbal Viagra. It wasn't, it wasn't Viagra. And I called my case agent. I said, yeah, I got this herbal.

He said, Bob, you can't deliver that. It's drugs. We can't deliver drugs. And I said, Omar, you know, what am I going to do? And he says, come up with the story. But, you know, I said, can't you get it? permission because like if the head of DEA and the Attorney General and I guess the President and the Pope say you can do it, you can do it, and that takes six months.

Right. So I get up to, I get up to L.A. I'm meeting with, I can't even remember which one. Eventually we indict between what we did on the East Coast with Operation Royal Charm and Operation We indict 77 people. So I can't remember in this particular case I'm dealing with. But he said, did you ring Viagra? I said, oh, shoot. I stuck it on the top of my car when I got in the car. It must have fallen off the car.

I forgot about, oh, John, I'm so sorry. So we never delivered. Wow. But the whole point is the government can't be in the business of distributing drugs. And when we get into another phase of this case, I will tell you something else in terms of the drugs. So how does it escalate from drugs? What is the next thing that they want to kind of loop you in on?

Okay. So by this time now, I've got, we've got counterfeit cigarettes. We've got counterfeit clothing. We have counterfeit pharmaceuticals. The Russians here on the East Coast are selling me stolen cars. They, after about, I'd been back on the West Coast for a couple weeks when they get a hold of me and say, you know, do you want stolen cars? And so I asked the case agent, do we want stolen cars? And we were trying to get them to deliver the cars out to Los Angeles, but they wouldn't. But by this time, I'm also dealing

with agents that are working our sister case called Operation Royal Charm. And so I go back there and I meet with the Russians and buy stolen cars from them. And we storm in the Royal Charms warehouse. So we've got the cigarettes, we've got the ecstasy, we've got crystal meth, we've got stolen cards, we've got counterfeit pharmaceuticals and everything. And my case agent, who was one of the best case agents that I worked with throughout my career, Omar, was good. And he goes, Bob, he said, we got to have guns to put on the press conference table, you know. We got to make this look like it's dangerous so that the American people, you know, this looks good.

The whole point of any undercover operation is to make the bosses look good because you never see the undercover agent in the media. You never see the case agent usually in the media. It's always the bosses. So it was like, well, let's, yeah, let me see if I can get some guns. And Mark, true story. I promised you I wouldn't lie. We are driving down the 60 freeway. The Pomona Freeway, if you're familiar with Los Angeles.

John, one of my other Johns, it sounded like a hooker. I'm dealing with a lot of Johns, but it was a common name with angle-sized name in the Chinese community. This is the Chinese crime guy that you're working. Yeah, yeah. And we're driving there. And I said, hey, one of my buddies owns a PMC, a private military company down in Alabama. He gets hired out by these third world countries. In your next container of counterfeit cigarettes, can you throw in a case of AK-47s?

because they trade here, I mean, they train here in the United States, and then they go to these third world countries and provide security. And just then, a flatbed National Guard truck goes by with a tank on it. And if you saw this in the movie, you're going to say, no way. If I wrote this in a book, you're going to say, no way. You don't advance plot with coincidence. The truck goes by with the tank on it. And he goes, I get you tank.

He said, I just get ship for drug dealers down in South America. He said, I get you anything but nuclear weapons. And in my mind, I'm going, holy crap. I wanted like a nine millimeter to put on the press conference table. And now he's saying he can get me anything short of nuclear weapons. So I said, well, let me check with my guy in Alabama. And I go back to my case agent and the co-case agent. I said, this is what we got.

And they said, have him send us a catalog. So I called the guy. And I said, so you can get any weapons out of China? He said, yeah, yeah. I said, can you send us a, my guy wants to see his catalog. Can you see a catalog what's available? So they sent us a catalog of Chinese manufactured guns or weapons. And we decide, for some reason, yes, I carry, yes, I shoot.

I'm not a good shot. No, I'm not a gun nut. I don't know a whole lot. I like Michael Keat and Mr. Mom when he goes, you know, 38 or 39 when he asks him what kind of gun he's got. You know, so I'm closer to Michael Keaton than I am to Mitch Rapp in the Vince Flynn novels. But so they had 20 containers of QW2 shoulder fire missiles available. It was $60 million, and they could promise delivery into the United States if we paid a $2 million bribe to the daughter of the president of Cambodia or to the defense minister of Paraguay.

And so legally, you couldn't ship weapons into the United States, but we couldn't buy weapons from China. But Paraguay and Cambodia could. So for the bribe, they would phony up the paperwork to make it look like these weapons were going to Cambodia or China. And then... Cambodia or Paraguay. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Yeah, Cambodia or Paraguay. Thank you for paying attention. So you are paying attention. That's good. That's good. Yeah, so they could phony up that paperwork. And then when the international auditors go in, it's like, okay, yeah, these are the way, this is where the weapons go.

But in fact, they would change the bills of lading to say it was lawn furniture to send to the United States. Well, it was $60 million. You know, we're not going to come up with $60 million, but I get introduced to someone else there in Los Angeles who gives me the names of a couple generals in China, and I'm talking to them. We're negotiating for this deal, and it's a conspiracy. We never take delivery because the case goes down, but it was kind of like the government wasn't going to give me $60 million to buy. the missile, but we could have done it. I mean, had we set our sights lower, we might have been able to get the thing done. And my one co-case agent who was a gun nut, I mean, great guy, Bud was a great

guy. But he said, let's just get one. If we can just get one. And I said to John, I said, look, can we just get one just to make sure that it works? And I think, oh, you don't need one. And if you do one, you still have to pay the $2 million bribe or $1 million bribe. You come to China with me and we will go to China and you can see that it works there. That's like, that's really not what we needed. We didn't need that. We wanted the weapon to come here just to put on the press conference table. Wow.

That is so crazy. So the way that the crime, the sort of deal would work is it comes from China, the daughter of the president of Cambodia would accept the bribe for some reason because she was in charge of that? You know what? I never researched that. I never asked it. We were just told that's what was going to happen. And then Cambodia would say, yes, we took delivery of the weapon. Now, we were told, this was told on tape.

And again, what I'm telling you is what I was told. So, first of all, John Wu, one of our main targets, I never caught him in a lie. So at least he was telling me what he believed in the truth. But he said that if we don't take the 20 containers of QW2 missiles, they were going to North Korea. But we'd contacted the CIA. You know, do you guys want to buy, you know, give me the $60 million? We can buy the missiles and everything. And they said, and I can't say the CIA said no, but whoever we contacted with the CIA, you know, he said, oh, we can't do it.

And then later on, after the case went down, my case agent was talking to another CIA official at a big powwow back in D.C. And, of course, the other CIA official says, well, why don't you contact us? We would have given you the $60 million. I was like, golly, that would have been, that would have been fun, you know, to say that. But I couldn't go, I couldn't go to China, which disappointed me because by treaty we had to notify if we were sending someone over. And, of course, if I get caught over there and they find out I'm an FBI agent, then I'm a spy. And, and I kind of joked it, well, it would be another chapter in the book. You know, that would be, that would be kind of cool

because eventually we were going to go to North Korea. And I said, that's what I want. I want to go to North Korea. Now, you're dealing with the actual Chinese generals in the military? Yeah, on the phone, I am. Now, are they, so how does that work over there? Like, there are these giant weapons manufacturers in China that are making these missiles.

And then did they know where it's going? I'm sure they did. I, again, I'm dealing with them. they yes, they knew it was they knew it was coming here. Got it. I mean, you've had the weapons dealer

on your show. Absolutely. And he would have seen through all of this. Right. You know, but yeah. And to be honest, they told me they were generals. You know, and my guy here in,

my guy here in Los Angeles was saying, these are the generals. And so I'm dealing with them. But who knows? But, you know, sort of like even here in the United States when we've got corruption, that, you know, for enough money, I'll phony up the paperwork to make it look like I've sold it to this person when, in fact, it's going to this person. And, you know, we'll pay a couple bribes and he'll admit that he got it. And then it was destroyed in a fire.

You know, whatever. I don't know how they were going to work it out. But it turned out that we were never able. we weren't going to be able to do the $60 million. Right. And the case was starting to come to a close. But it's because of that case, it's because of the weapons that now headquarters recognizes that, you know,

Bob is into some pretty deep stuff out there in Los Angeles. and my case agent is saying, well, now we've got, now we have a new direction to go and see if you can pull this off. And that's how we get into the supernote investigation. So this all comes still from the same guy, John Wu, is still the guy that's involved with He's the facilitator. As I, as I've said several times, this guy, if you watched, if I were able to show you the undercover tapes, you would say no way. This guy, he's, he laughs. He's, he's short, he's stocky, he laughs all the time. You know, he's, he's not Joe Pesci, you know, in casino, you know, it's not, it's not when he's playing Anthony Spolotro. It's not, it's not that. It's this guy,

he just, you know, and, but he could get us, I said he was the most dangerous, man in America because no matter what we brought up, he was able to facilitate it. Like I said, he said he got the ship for the drug dealers in South America. When we eventually bring up the super note, he introduced me to people. When we bring up the weapons, he introduced me to people. At one point, we were with somebody else, and they were talking about plastic garbage bags. and how many millimeter thick do you want? I mean, he knew everything about plastic garbage.

It was like everything that came up. He had an answer and he knew somebody that could do it. You know, you probably have that friend that no matter what you bring up, oh, I got a guy that knows a guy. Yep. That was John Wu. If you need it, I got it.

Yep. And if I don't got it, I can get it. Yeah. If I can't get it, you don't need it. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good line. Yeah. There was one time I just said to him, I said, John, I said,

But when I say, when we talk about copyright, you just mean right to copy. And he's, yeah, you bring me a sample. I make it for you. You know, at one point, they were counterfeiting our postage stamps. It was like, why? And they were the 100 stamp rolls with the barcodes. And we ended up getting 17 mastercases, about the size of a master case of those cigarettes. If you think about holding 50 cartons of cigarettes, we had 17 master cases filled with 100 stamp rolls of postage stamps with the barcodes on it.

And that was actually another one of the funny stories because when we opened it and we found the postage stamps, it was like crap. Because first of all, what do we do? but now we got to kind of cut in postal authorities. Well, that's somebody else. More bureaucracy is going to slow it all down. But the chance of it being blown. I mean, and I apologize if you're listening, if someone is a postal authority, but I'm sure 17 master cases of counterfeit stamps would be the biggest case they've worked. So they're going to talk to their wife, to their girlfriend, to whatever, and it could leak out and all this.

So we ended up, I think we took, you know, to be honest, I can't even remember what, how we got rid of it, how we seized it. I think we took two cases and let the other 15 go through. But I just, I was obnoxious yelling at the, it was Jenny now that, now that it's coming back. My mind, sometimes my mind works, Mark. That's pretty good. But it's working. It was Jenny, and I yelled at her, you know, don't you ever do this to me again? Don't you understand when they x-ray those containers, if it doesn't all look alike, they're going to open the container.

And now, if you have, if Michael ever does that again, he's out of here. I'm done with this, you know, and, and, well, then, and she's complaining that they were two boxes short. And I said, I didn't take them. What am I going to do with two boxes of counterfeit posting stamps? You know, but when you think about it, the postal isn't going to, when it goes through the machine, it's not reading whether it's counterfeit or not. I mean, they see stamps. Again. And the poster stamp hustle was just to make money?

Just to make money. It wasn't to facilitate some greater crime. No, I don't think so. Mark, there was, I guess we can get into this eventually, but we were in the, The Ritz Carlton in Pasadena, which is no longer Ritz Carlton, the camera is in a lamp. The whole counterfeit money deal that we'll get into kind of got screwed up for a while. And John is looking into the, he's looking right into the camera as he's talking about this in his cell phone rings. And he picks it up.

And of course, he's talking Mandarin. and I don't understand a word. I know no Chinese, which was really good because there would be times that we'd send the tapes, you know, we'd have Mandarin speakers that would translate the tapes. And I'd get the translation three weeks back. And it was like, boy, they were really mad at you, you know. It's like, somebody said this about you and that about you. And it's like, eh, I'm glad I didn't hear it.

It probably would have hurt my feelings. But he gets a phone call on its Mandarin. and they're ordering up like, I want to say, 350 counterfeit credit cards that they're going to do because they were part of this cybercrime. But this is John, the guy's calling him up to get the 350 counterfeit credit cards. And he's talking right on the phone, you know, on the camera to whomever. My point is he was into everything. Whatever you wanted, he was into.

to. Fascinating. Eventually introduced me to some Iraqis down in San Diego that we were trying to put together as part of the, they started with cigarettes, where we're trying to get them connected with the weapons deal. One of the conversations that we have with the guy from one of the Iraqi guys, at one of the Iraqi guys, at one point he was talking about religion and everything. And I finally said, you talk about religion and we're talking about the guns.

and, you know, don't she's, oh, no, no, no. You never mix religion and business. He ended up going back to Iraq and got killed. Oh, wow. And that was another connect that came through John. Yeah, that came through John. Wow. John just.

Was he an American citizen? Yes. And was he intimidating in any way? I know you mentioned him kind of being jovial and kind of jolly, but did he have muscle around him? Like, he's dealing with all this money and bad guys. You know, it's interesting. he didn't, some of the other guys did.

They had, there was an incident. Obviously, you're in shape, and I can tell that. And it gets down to the supernote case, which maybe we'll get into, I think we're probably talking too long now. But at one point, some guy came over from China because I was refusing to release a container of cigarettes. And he has two bodyguards. and both of them have the big calluses on the thumb, or, you know, on the hand from breaking boards.

And I notice this immediately, and I'm not armed. And I kind of, I took a steak knife and sort of slipped it inside my sleeve. And I thought, this is ridiculous. There's no way you can, by the time you'd even try to, they're going to break you in two, you know, But I was saying, well, at least I'll have a steak knife and something happens.

So this guy had his bodyguards. But John would, John never threatened me, but he just said, you know, we have people that can, that can do something. You know,

if, if, I, I know people that, that have 100,000 soldiers that can do something to you, or, you know, to us for,

when you do something. But, um, John was just a criminal entrepreneur that was a facilitator. Wow. So how does the super note come into play? And what exactly, how does that develop? Okay.

So the super note, your viewers and your listeners are young. But in 1996, we changed the $100 bill. That's when the new $100 bill came out. And quite honestly, at the time, I was undercover at the racetrack at Hollywood. in Santa Nita, Hollywood Park in Santa Nita, which were top race horse raking, throwbread horse raking venues in the nation, but Hollywood Park doesn't exist anymore. But the new $100 bill came out. And everyone saw, oh, a $100 bill, it's a new $100 bill. And they just said because the old one is being counterfeited. Well, I just assumed that it was Bob and Mark in their backyard with

the Xerox machine that's Xeroxing off the $100 bills. That's what I think. And so now the new $100 bill had special marks and, you know, it looked cool because it was much better than the previous ones and everything. So it didn't mean much to me, but that's when the new $100 bill came out. Well, it turns out that North Korea was counterfeiting our $100 bill. And that new one that came out, they were counterfeiting the old one. So that's why the government came out with the new one that was counterfeiting. proof, and they were counterfeiting the counterfeit proof bill.

So when they, when this, when the news, when they, they first started counterfeiting the bills, the Bureau printing engraving in Secret Service, they were putting out to the merchants and the banks that Mark Gagnon's picture is not on the $100 bill. It's Benjamin Franklin. So if you see this, you know that it's counterfeit. Vice versa, you mean. It's not Ben Franklin. It's Mark.

Yeah. Yeah, whatever. You are listening. I just want to be, the counterfeit stuff is complicated, so I just want to make it clear. So North Korea is reading the bulletins that they're sending to the banks and to the merchants, and they're changing the plates. So every time they would point out, you know, look at this, look at that, they were changing the plates. They came up with their $100 bills were near perfect. and it turned out that I was tasked with trying to see if I could get the supernote.

And it had to be the supernote. So by this time... I'm sorry, when you say supernote, you mean this brand new, perfectly counterfeit $500. Yeah, it was called in law enforcement circles, the supernote or the super dollar. And I was tasked with trying to get it. again, what I'm about to say doesn't make sense, but I'm dealing with five different groups underneath this umbrella organization now. So I put the word out that I need good quality counterfeit money. And you know when I do deals with you guys, we have that escrow account.

Well, I've got other people I'm dealing with. I don't want to go into details, but I've got money tied up in safety deposit boxes. And so if they know that if something goes wrong, they can take the money out of the safety deposit box. Well, the trouble is I'm putting a couple hundred thousand of real bills into this safety deposit box. And I could be making money investing the real bills. So I need good quality counterfeit money that I can put into the safety deposit box. Now, can you get me? I don't want cheap stuff that you're on a Xerox machine. I want good quality counterfeit bills.

Can you get it for me? So I can't say, oh, I saw on Rush Hour 2 that they talk about the supernote. You know, can you bring me that? So now the first bill that one of the guys brings me, I give it to my case agent. He gives it to our Secret Service contact. And they said, oh, no, this is made in Columbia. We've already seen it. The second bill they bring me, they, oh, no, this is made in Macau.

We've already seen it. The third bill they bring me, they go, oh, we've never seen this one before, but this isn't the supernote. Well, then two guys brought me the super note. And interestingly enough, when John Wu brought me the supernote, he explained that it's a minimum million-dollar purchase, and it's $0.35,000 on a dollar, so it's $350,000. for this minimum purchase. Like I gave the $100 bill to my case agent.

He gives it to Secret Service. Secret Service, the analysts in L.A. came back and said that it was real. And I said, look, if you're telling me the truth, I am mortgaging my house because I'm going to buy as much real money that they're willing to sell me for $0.35 cents on a dollar. It's a good investment. Yeah. Yeah. It seems fair to me. or seems wise at least.

And I said, Omar, I think they better check it again. So they checked it at headquarters, Secret Service headquarters. And they came back and said, no, these two bills are the super note. We haven't told you out in the field because it's been compromised. There were three top secret marks on the bills that they had never actually shared sort of outside the inner circle back in D.C. So now we've got to Supernote. I mean, now we put in.

So this is where we come back to the State Knife case. The one guy that I'm dealing with has a container coming in. And I said, look, that money you brought me, that's perfect. That's exactly what I want. And you've got your container. I want $100,000 in those bills and you can have your container. Well, he shows up to my warehouse with $60,000 of real cash. And I said, no, I'm not going to do it.

I told you $100,000. I don't know about you, pal, but I'm a man of my word. I said $100,000 of those bills because I can make more with that. I know darn well you're not paying $60,000 because you're probably paying. And he never gave me a price. I said, you're probably paying 35 cents on a dollar for this. So that's only costing you $35,000. And I want $100,000 of that.

And there was a problem over in Asia where they had seized a bunch of counterfeit supernotes over there. So I think he was telling me the truth, but I wouldn't release the container. So that's when the big guy comes over from, actually from Hong Kong with his bodyguards. And we're having the meeting in the restaurant. And I slip the, it's funny because Jenny, one of our targets, she's my translator. Oh, really? So I bring her to this meeting. And that's when I slipped the steak knife in my sleeve thinking that this could all go south and hurry.

And I'm not wearing a gun or, you know, I'm not. I'm not that cool, a martial artist. And so jabbering back and forth, and I'm saying, Jimmy promised me this, Jimmy promised me that. He didn't come through with his promises. I'm not doing a container. And finally, the guy tells me, tells Jenny that, okay, good, tell Bobby can keep the container.

So they, they didn't have action. to the $100,000 because all of it had been, or, you know, that their source had been They got jammed up. So then they're blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, back and forth. And I'm wearing a wire, so all this is being recorded. So I said, so what did he just say about Jimmy? And she goes, oh, he said Jimmy going to be killed. And it was like, oh, crap, I can't have that on tape.

You know, it's like, Jimmy. And so finally, I said, look, I like Jimmy. I don't want Jimmy killed. Okay, bring me $60,000. I'll release your container. So we settled all that. I got to $60,000 in cash, and we released the container. But they were going to kill Jimmy for screwing up this deal.

And thanks to Jenny translating for me. I mean, again, she ends up getting indicted, convicted, I think served, end up serving seven years, but she was my translator in that case. Wow. And so you had his container. Yeah, in my warehouse. And it was just an empty container. No, no, it had all the counterfeit cigarette. It was a container of counterfeit cigarettes. And you were using that as leverage to then get the cash. And so that 60,000, that was counterfeit. Oh, that was just them trying to. 60 was the real money. That was them trying to pay to get the container out. To get the real money. And you said, I mean, they brought me the real money. And you say, look, I don't want the real money. I don't want the

fake ones. I wanted the fake money. I understand. Wow. So, no, no, no, that makes complete sense now. I mean, that's, it's kind of ballsy to be trying to, like, trying to hardball these guys is, like, pretty intense being like, hey, I'm not releasing your shit until you get me what I want. You know, again, it comes back. I was where God wanted me and I had a great life insurance policy. So if my time was up, my wife was going to live happily ever after. And, you know, I always jokes. she probably would have bought some little pool boy. And, you know, she, if I came home alive, she got me. If I didn't, she had a nice insurance policy and live happily ever after.

That's wild. So even in these meetings where you're like kind of playing rough with these guys to get what you want, you weren't afraid of them, you know, taking you out. Like, if they're willing to kill Jimmy, why aren't they willing to kill you? Yeah. I didn't even think about that. Boy, I'm glad you weren't my case agent. Oh my gosh, Bob, this is stressing me out, dude. I don't know.

I can perform in front of thousands of people. I can't do this. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because it's 2024. And it's time to talk about something important. When you are seriously hurt, your injury could be worth millions. Yes, that's right. The world is a crazy place, and one person's negligence can result in another's settlement.

And that's why I got to talk to you about Morgan and Morgan. Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury law firm. They have over 100 offices nationwide and over a thousand lawyers. Yes, these are the big boys. You know them, you see them, you see their billboards all over the world. If you ever drove down I-90 from Florida to New York, I'm telling you, you've seen the billboards. Have you ever watched a UFC fight? You've seen them right on the banner.

I'm telling you, these are the biggest guys in the game, all right? With over $20 billion recovered for over 500,000 clients, Morgan and Morgan has a proven track record of fighting to get you full and fair compensation. The annoying thing with most attorneys is that in order to submit a claim, you got to call them up, you got to talk to their people, you got to go back and forth on emails, you got to hope that they see it. They might charge you just even look at their claim. Here's the cool thing with Morgan and Morgan. With eight clicks or less, you can submit a claim and one of their licensed attorneys will take a look at it and get back to you. It's that easy. It's like ordering

something off Amazon. It's just a couple clicks. You can submit your claim very easily and cheap. Yeah, how about zero dollars? That's how much it costs to submit a claim with Morgan and Morgan. Extremely easy. No fee required. So if you are ever injured, you can go check out Morgan and Morgan. Their fee is free unless they win. That's right. Unless they win for you. Unless they fight and get you compensation, you're not paying a single dollar. That's a pretty good deal. So for more information, go to for the people.com slash gagnon. That's correct. F-O-R-the-people.com slash gagnon. Or dial pound law. That's pound 529 from your cell phone. That's for the people. F-O-R-the-people.com.com. That's for the people. F-O-R-the-people.com. or dial pound law pound 529 from your cell phone. This is a paid advertisement. Now let's get back to the show after the short disclaimer. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I've got to tell you about an amazing service known

as Blue Chew. That's right. Blue Chew is a service that basically delivers this chewable tablet to your door. Whenever you want, once a week, once a month. I don't even know if they could do it that frequently. But they'll send it right to your door. You don't have to go to the doctor and have some awkward conversation with some guy. and a lab coat, some dude that's judging you, probably, if I had to guess. With Blue Chew, it's

super discreet. The packaging is discreet. It's just a couple questions on their website, and they will send you chewable tablets that have basically the same active ingredients as like a Vagra or a Cialis, but at the fraction of the cost and in a chewable form. It's great. It truly is. I mean, one time I was in the woods and we were cold and everyone was raining and I pitched a tent with the help of Blue Chew and everyone gathered under it and we were safe and it saved me and a lot of lonely people.

So if you're interested in Blu-chew, here's how you get it. You're going to go to Blu-Coo.com and use the promo code Gagnon. That's right. G-A-G-G-N-O-N. It's kind of funny. Gagnon has the promo code.

I don't know why exactly, but it is funny. And you're going to receive your first month for free. That's right. Blu-C-com. Use the promo code Gagnon. Check it out. Blue-choo.

Let's get back to the show. So now, So now we've got John, John Wu, my buddy, my facilitator, the guy that set me up with a weapons deal, the guy that set me up with the Iraqis, the guy that's set me up with the counterfeit cigarettes and the counterfeit viagra and all that stuff. So now we've got him. So he's explaining about Wilson Liu. And Wilson Liu's brother is the one that deals directly with North Korea. Who's Wilson? Wilson Liu is a new character.

I just bring that name up. up at Wilson Liu is the facilitator for the supernotes. I see. And those are all made in North Korea. All made in North Korea. Now, do you think that is above board? Like, do the North Koreans know about this? Absolutely.

The government? Oh, yeah. Like, there's nothing you can really do in North Korea, but the government, not? No. North Korea is a criminal enterprise. So how does that crime scheme work for them? Like, the government plus, I'm sure, some citizens of North Korea are creating

counterfeit $100 bills and then selling them around the world at a, At a discount. At a discount. And then people, I'm sure in all over the world, not only America, but in other countries, too, because everyone kind of trades in the dollar. They're buying them in a discount and then they're then using them to purchase things. I would say it's kind of, I'm not speaking as an expert, but sort of a twofold. One, it's facilitating North Korea. Because they're making money.

Because they're making money. But two, it's undermining the U.S. dollar, which is. undermining their enemy. So I see. You know, it's kind of a two for one. Yeah. That makes sense. Wow.

And so now you need people that are on the inside as a liaison with North Korea in order to do these deals. So now he's, so now John introduces me to Wilson Liu. And what is Wilson Liu like? Did you meet him? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. What did he look like?

What was it? Was he North Korean? He was Chinese. Okay. But his brother, according to Wilson, his brother, his brother. was a big wig in China that dealt directly with North Korea. And so he was a facilitator with North Korea. Got it.

So now you talk to Wilson, you're like, hey, I need some super notes. Yeah. Well, we're, again, we meet in the Rich Carlton, and it's on videotape, audio tape. You set up the room or the team sets of the room with all the cameras and wires and everything. And you invite him in there and paint the picture. Like take me through all the, how he looks. What does he dress like? Who does he bring?

He's younger than John. He's thinner. I mean, he was kind of built closer to me. More cautious. John had built me up as by this time. I'm, we're well into two years in this investigation. So this is going to come across racist. But.

I was the quipple wound eye. That's the way they referred to me because I was crippled and I had round eyes. So they would, they would talk about. Raised, raises against you. That's, well, but,

you know, he, he quiple wound eye, you know, and so you, you, you had guys in China that were vouching for me, because their containers were getting through,

you know, nothing, as far as they knew, nothing was happening. For years. Yeah. for two years. So John is building me up,

but Wilson is cautious in the meeting. I can't quite remember all of the details, but I'll give a plug out to David Rose, who wrote a very good article in Vanity Fair called North Korea, the Super Dollar Store, or something like that. Maybe it's North Korea Dollar Store, but a great article that he wrote, he detailed, he interviewed Wilson Liu after he was convicted

and talks about how it was all set up. But Wilson Liu, this money mark, he laundered a million dollars through the slot machines in Las Vegas. This money that North Korea was producing, they had our printing press, they had the paper that we were using. it was so good that it was going through the slot machines. I mean, and so essentially, as Wilson Luz explaining to me in this meeting, and as he explains to David Rose in this article, you put $100 bill into the slot machine, win or lose,

whatever, you cash out, and you go to the, you take your chips or take your chit, whatever it is, go to the cashiers, And they, if you lost $10, then they give you $90 back. If you want $110, they give you $110. So without really investing anything, he's making this. And he admits that he laundered about a million dollars through the slot machines of Las Vegas. Was living in San Marino, which is a very exclusive community in Los Angeles, outside of Los Angeles and Pasadena. So does he give the money to people?

because it's kind of slow to laundry at one pole at a time. He's selling it. I mean, he was a big gambler, so they were doing. He admitted to me that in one of our meetings that he had just sold $30,000 to somebody that was going down to South America. They tried, for the most part, they tried to keep it out of the United States. Wilson Liu was one of the few people that was bringing it into the United States. They thought it was, they thought that we could detect it.

We really weren't doing a good job of detecting it. But overseas, they just figured it was easier to try to pass a $100 bill overseas than it was here in the United States. But Wilson was one of the few guys that was doing it. But I have John in the Ritz Carlton when he first got to samples talking about, oh yeah, I just, I went to the bank, deposit in bank, nothing happened. went to the store, bought this stuff. You know, this really works. Because it's kind of my deal with when they were bringing me the samples that weren't the Supernote, my story was it's got to go through the self-service machine at Home Depot.

And so I would just come back and say, no, I don't want to. This didn't work at Home Depot. So that's how I got out of it. So that's how I got out of. He gave you the Columbia one. Yeah, why wouldn't I buy the Columbia one? Why wouldn't I buy this one? It's like didn't work through the slot machine.

But you show it to the case agent, they say, this is the good one. And then you go back and you go, worked at Home Depot. This is great. Give me more of that. Wow. So can you, if I'm Wilson Liu, how am I cleaning it through the casinos? I'm taking the money and cash and then I'm going to a casino and just playing with it? Well, playing with it, buying chips, sticking it through the machines.

Giving it to other people? Or is it? Well, no, you go to the cage and buy a thousand dollars worth of chips. So you can go to the to the tables. And then you play a little. You play a little. win or lose, then you cash in your chips. I mean, it's a great laundering scheme.

Do they still do that? I don't know. I'm not a gambler. Laundering through the casino seems like such a good idea. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because, like, it's, obviously, I'm sure they have some mechanisms to test if things are legit, but you have so much money going in and out. Yeah.

Three in the morning in Vegas, it's going to be hard to be detecting. But he's claiming, I mean, it really went through the machines, you know, where you can just put the $100 bills straight in the machine. Wow. So kind of to jump forward a little bit, when we got to trial in Las Vegas, it was really interesting. It is, it's an act of war to counterfeit another nation's currency. So technically, if some country is counterfeiting our currency, the law of war recognizes that we could go after them. Wow.

I'm testifying in Wilson Liu's court, in federal court. I'm walking, they put me up in a hotel downtown, and I'm walking past the state courthouse is when they're having the preliminary hearing for OJ Simpson when he stole all this memorabilia. Yeah. And you've got all the camera, I mean, it's Camp OJ. You've got all these cameras up and the sound systems and these reporters are out there. and you can see them reporting, and I'm walking past them. I go into federal court.

Nobody is there. And it's like, people, it's an act of war to counterfeit. This guy laundered, you know, a million dollars through your slot machines. This guy is facilitating the destruction of the American economic system. But you're worried about an ex-football player who stole his autographed. How many yards of Wilson Lou Rush, all right? How many touchdowns did he score? For Cal, you know what I'm saying? For USC, that's all that matters.

But so I go into my prosecutor, a good guy, did a good job, and he's got the big exhibits up for court, the $100 bills that are blown up. And he says, Bob, which ones to counterfeit? And I'm looking closely, because what turns out, we have to reveal two of the three top secret marks in court in order to prove that these were the counterfeit bills. and I look at it and on the one the minute hand on one of the clocks in the tower is bleeding over just a little bit on the clock. It's just like a small nick.

And I go, okay, now I see, I mean, and I look for a long time. But he's got it blown up big enough. And I look and I can see the little Nick. And I say, said, there it is right there. That's the counterfeit. He said, nope, that's the real one. The counterfeit was better. Wow. The counterfeit, the plate didn't have a nick in it, I guess, whatever. And I mean, maybe someone suggested that the government did that on purpose so they could

identify it. But I just think that whenever they did it, they had a little nick in there. And North Korea had the better plate. But Wilson Lou then was eventually convicted. I can't remember how many years he got, but at one point we're playing a tape of one of my meetings with Wilson Lou. And I have Elvis Presley singing, fools rush in or something in the background. And the defense counsel tried to make a big deal out of me taking advantage of his client who was from another country and, you know, like, culturally, I was taking advantage. So how did you actually get super notes? Like, did you actually get a shipment of super notes from him? And how did that work? Not directly, well, I can't, I'm not sure I got him

directly from John. They mailed me in a FedEx box, a book that is cut open and bills are in. I mean, not professionally. So you can see if you blow up that picture that you're holding, you can see the return addresses out of China. And they did a poor quality. You know, it wasn't like in the movies. You know, they just, you can tell they use the razor blade and cut out this book, put those super notes.

And I can't remember that's a couple thousand dollars of super notes that they sent just sort of like for good faith. and we gave it. So now here's the true story. This is the rest of the story. Like I said, we're close to $750,000 a million in my undercover bank account that we've made from the bad guys. So we've got that. We've got the samples.

We've got these samples that, you know, a couple thousand to prove that this is more than just a one-off with that $100 bill. John Wu tells me it's 350,000 for a million dollar purchase. There's no negotiations. It's 350,000 up front. And I contact Omar and say, are we ready to pull the trigger? And he says, let me check with headquarters. And he calls headquarters. And headquarters says, yes, go ahead and do it.

Let's buy it. Now, this $350,000 is coming out. of my undercover bank account. It's not your tax dollars. It's not the Bureau's money. It's, it's our undercover money. It's project generated income. I tell John to do it. And this has to be Tuesday or Wednesday that I tell John, let's go forward with the deal. And he says, okay, I need, I need the 350,000 by Monday, I think. I had a couple days to actually, bring him the 350,000 in cash. The very next day, the freaking headquarters calls and said,

we think this is a rip-off. You can only do $175,000 in the first payment, and then $175,000 when the money's delivered. And Omar calls me, and we're both, we're both just going off. You know, no, that's not the deal. It was $350 up front. Do you got to, you know, this is what, why are you doing it's to me, you're setting me up.

You know, these guys, and I'm, it's true, but I'm sort of embellishing. I could get killed, you know, I'm not dealing with, and I think I use more than flaccid penis, but I'm not, you know, I'm dealing with organized crime guys that profess killing people and all this. You've set this whole thing up, and now you're doing this to me. So Omar goes back. Monday comes No resolution from headquarters

Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday And John, what are you doing? Where's the money? Where's the money? Again, Mark, it makes no sense. I came up, I told him, I said, John, I liquidated my stock. My broker is in, the broker,

or the clearinghouse is in Nebraska. I sent, I liquidated the stock. They sent a check to my accountant in New York, but it wasn't a certified check. So now there's a 10-day hold on 10 business day hold on the check. You're going to get your money. Meantime, you're going to get your money, but there's nothing I can do. I don't have $350,000 in cash to give you. So you're going to get your money.

Meanwhile, Omar is back and forth with headquarters you're going to do. it. Well, it's like, okay, A is signed off on it, but B's out of town, and he won't be back in. C is here, but B isn't here, and C won't sign it until B signs it. So it took almost 10 days to get the Bureau to finally agree to let us pay our 350,000, not even their money. So we finally get it paid. So now this brings us to the Rich Carlton. with the lamp when he's talking and he goes, you never do this to me again. You get us killed.

Well, the guy who had to sign off on it was an assistant director in charge. So we call him A Dix. So he was the one that did the final sign off. So we're in the Ritz Carlton. John is, he's up and down, walking up and down. And in this meeting, we're also talking about the weapons deal, but we're also talking about a new, brand new counterfeit bill that was 40 cents on a dollar that Secret Service had never seen.

So this is all brand new, but we're dealing with the $350,000. And he's explaining the price and everything because by now he's got the $350,000 for this meeting. It says, you know, you never do this to us. You get us killed. You don't understand how dangerous is this. and Mark, he says this on the tape. You do not understand how dangerous this is. This money is made in North Korea,

is distributed to the Russian embassy in Beijing, and that is where we get it. This is so dangerous. You get us all killed. And it's like, holy crap. I mean, we've got it, we've got him on tape. Now, as I said, I never caught him in a lot. lie and I can't prove that that's what the deal is, but that's what he's explaining. So at one point,

I just go, John, you don't understand, this won't happen again. The guy I'm dealing with backies, he's a dick. And he goes, a dick, horrible. We never deal with him again. Wow. You told him who it was. That's so funny. But it was, it was just, it was, it was, Fascinating that all this, that all this has come. Because at one point in one of our conversations, he said, I will take you back. We will sit in front of the embassy. And we will send our people in and they will bring the money out. And again, the Russian embassy?

The Russian embassy, yeah, in Beijing. And again, at this time, I'm briefing CIA on some of what we're doing. There was one meeting. the first meeting I had with one of the CIA case officers. And again, I hate it when people attribute, oh, the FBI is horrible or the CIA is incompetent. It's like, no, there are great agents that are out there risking their lives. There are CIA case officers that are risking doing great business. But anyway, when I briefed this one case officer about what we're doing, he says,

God, I wish we were doing stuff like this. I said, what do you guys do? But anyway, I said, I said, look, here's the situation. I said, if you got to knock, a non-official cover, if you want to send somebody over, I can vouch for them, and they can go and they can sit right outside the embassy when they send it in. And he goes, well, write it up and we'll see when get the approvals. I said, well, how long will take to get the approvals? And he said, oh, probably six weeks or so. I said, I got to have this by Monday. And so I ended up telling John, I said, John,

I trust you. I know you're not going to screw me. I said, you just have your people get it done and let's get the money back. I trust you to get it back. So that's when we come. Actually, maybe my timelines off. We've already found, we've already gotten this first million dollar shipment. So we end up, we get the first million dollar shipment.

we order up a second shipment because they've changed it. Now you only had to put up 10% because we got the first one. So they trust you. They trust me. You only have to put up 10% and then you pay the 70%. So we knew all the arrests were going down on this weekend in August. And we set up a second shipment. So that money is on the high seas when we make all the arrests.

But the important thing from my standpoint is the weekend before we make all the arrest, one of the representatives from North Korea is meeting with me and is telling me that they are going to make me the exclusive distributor of the supernote in the United States and they're going to give me $40 million a year to launder in the United States.

Now, whether it's true, I don't know, but this is what they tell me on tape. I mean, I'm wearing it. And my wife still thinks that maybe I should have taken the deal, You know, I would have tithed to the church. I would have given my 10%. Yeah, I don't know what the FBI salary is, but I can't imagine it's 40 million a year.

Yeah, but I, and I guess, you know, it's kind of one of those things, you know, with my FBI pension, I don't have to look over my shoulder. That's kind of nice. So this shipment of the million, the first million that came through of the super notes, can you explain how you received it? Okay. So. What it looked like.

I can't imagine it's easy to ship a million dollars. No. in a shipping container. Yeah. So what the deal was, typically the containers, if you see the big containers out on the interstates, you got 20 foot, 40 foot and 53 footers.

So typically with the cigarettes, they were coming in 40 foot containers. So in this particular case, I am told, and I kind of think, it was either from John or Wilson, and I can't remember now. But it was going to come in a 20-foot container with fabric, rolls of fabric.

So each roll of fabric would be numbered. So when I talk about a roll of fabric, it's like six feet long, probably 50 yards. You know, the same thing. Whatever they do here in the garment district when they're making clothing. Just rolled up into a big tube. Just rolled up into a plastic tube. And then there were numbers at the end. So and then I'm sure on the on the label that they sent it out as they sent it out as fabric.

Yeah, this one they didn't have to phony up the bill of lading. It was it was fabric made in North Korea. No, I think it made in China. Yeah, it probably would have said made in China because we wouldn't. I'm sorry, the bills were made in North Korea. Yeah, the bills were made in North Korea. Sent through the Russian embassy in China somehow wrapped up in the Chinese fabric, shipped out of China as Chinese fabric heading for the West. Coast.

Heading to the West Coast. Got it. So the container arrives. We bring it to our undercover warehouse. That day it arrives. We've got some Secret Service executives there. We've got some FBI executives. And the container arrives.

And we open the doors. And obviously, it's just law enforcement officials. We don't have John Wu's not there or any of his associates. And would they normally be there? Oh, no. Once it's arrived and it gets to you, they don't give a shit. don't care. They only, this, this was a huge deal if this was true. I mean, to jump forward, uh, George Bush in a subsequent press conference announced that we have clear and convincing evidence

in North Korea is counterfeiting a $100 bill. It's an act of war, knock it off. I mean, you know, it's saying that this is the first time that we really have proof of this. So your case is getting all the up to the president. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a big deal. So, they're there, they're watching us. We're pulling out the rolls of fabric. Of course, the executives are just watching. They're not helping us pull out the rolls of fabric. We're pulling out the rolls of fabric.

Every one of them has a number at the end of the roll of fabric. This isn't the number. This isn't the number. John, I think it was John or Wilson, had given me the four numbers to look for on the rolls. And we're pulling them out. We're pulling them out. And there had to been hundreds of roles.

and we get all the way to the back of the container. And I know Omar and I were like, shoot, shoot, shoot. And you could sort of look up there and see the executives kind of smirking that the Secret Service is smirking because, you know, the FBI, you know, they're going to screw this up. The FBI is murking because we told you it was going to be a ripoff. Yeah. We come to the four roles. and it's the four number. It's the numbers we're looking for.

And Omar and I both, this is sort of like a kid at Christmas where you ask for the Red Rider BB gun, but now is it really packed in this? So we take the first roll of fabric and we start unrolling it. And we're pushing it out and we're pushing it out and we can't feel anything. And we're both, we're on our hands and knees

unrolling this fabric. And we sort of get almost to the end and there's a lump. we can feel a lump. And I looked it over at Omar and he looked over at me and we push it further and there is the money taped to the rolls of fabric. I mean, roughly, by this time, they had sent us some money ahead. So it's roughly a million dollars of this counterfeit bills.

And it was like this, at least on the United States, this was the biggest seizure ever. and we've got the super note. We've got it. Now, each of these bills, it's a separate serial numbers. So, I mean, it's not like the typical Xerox machine where it's all the same number. I mean, it was so exciting. Now, what happened was, and I may have my numbers wrong, but we were supposed to pay John, like, $30,000 in the counterfeit money. So we had issues before with Secret Service not allowing us to put counterfeit money into the circulation.

So we had to go to the National Reserve Bank and get brand new $100 bills so that we could give him the real $30,000 and I think $30,000 would's a figure. But we had to give them the real bills thinking that they were counterfeit. So he wanted counterfeit, you were like, all right, we'll rip him off, give him real ones. Yeah, we're going to, we're going to screw him. We'll give him real money. Oh, that's so funny. And I'm sure it was kind of like, man, this is so good.

This goes through the slot machines. It works at the Home Depot. And he's like, man, they did a good job with this. Oh, that's so funny. So it, but it was, it was quite a case. I mean. Was your life, like, what was the closest in this case specifically? We can talk about other cases as well a little later.

This case specifically, at what point did you feel like, oh, it's up? They got us, like, we got found out, my life is being threatened, that you were the most scared. You know, in this case, it never really happened. And understand, this is sort of the swan song. These are, I'm working three cases. I'm working a Vietnamese gang case. I'm a 55-year-old white guy that's crippled why Vietnamese gang members are dealing with me, but eventually 10 gang members were indicted for selling me meth and ecstasy. I'm working in the Nambla case where we convict eight members of the group's inner circle, and I'm working this case. So by this time, I'm confident to the point of being cocky about what's going to happen and how I can handle it and I can probably talk my way in or out of anything.

So I never really had it there. There was one funny time when we were at the warehouse. And my warehouse was two hours from home. So it was a long drive. And L.A. traffic is maybe not as bad as your traffic. I was in your traffic last night and it was pretty bad. But so it was like, damn, let's just go. You know, so the bad guys were in in my warehouse, or John was in my warehouse and I think he'd brought somebody.

And it's like, let's go. There was some guy sitting at the end of the street in like a four-door car, you know, an American-made four-door car that looked like a cop or FBI or something. And they wouldn't leave. And I wanted to say, guys, I'm FBI. I know that's not an FBI agent. I don't know who he is, but you can go. They're not going to follow you out of here. And we had to stay for like another hour, hour and a half before that car left and they would leave.

But not that that was even dangerous, but it was just kind of one of those things. My wife will still bring this up. She, my wife is a gym. I don't know why she's put up with me for all these years. But I do laugh that she's the same sweet girl that I married. And I've been like 12 different personalities. I mean, why not, why not be married to me? You know, she'd go, you know, I don't like you being a contract killer.

And it's like, I'm going to be a, you know, next week. I'll take the contract. Just wait. But there was, there was one time when she was, when we were getting ready to, moved to San Diego, because in the middle of this case, I was transferred to San Diego, what we called Office of Preference. So you put your name on a list, and then if you're at the top of the list and they have an opening, you can go down there.

So San Diego opened up, and she was leaving her job as an administrator at the English as a second language program and was having a going away dinner, and everyone was honoring her. And so, of course, I'm the loving husband that should be there. Well, it was Jenny's birthday party. And so I had to go to the birthday party. And I'm the only angle. I mean, I'm the only white guy in this whole group, like the Quiple Wound I.

And I'm the only white guy dealing with these people. And so I go to the birthday party while she was, you know, rightfully so upset that I wasn't there to accompany her. She's being honored by the people she works with. But I'm just taking pictures of everybody. I'm at the, I'm the crazy round eye, you know, and, you know, hold my crutch while I'm taking pictures of, so we have all these up close pictures of all the bad guys. Wow. One of the pictures of, in fact, you can see it in this. This is one of the pictures I took and I made a calendar.

So that's Jenny on the calendar there behind John. Wow. Oh, this is John. Yeah, that's John Wu. John, yeah, so we had. Wow. I mean, this is just so crazy. So now when all this goes to court, everyone gets arrested.

Everyone gets arrested. Yeah, that weekend when, between the Newark agents and what they did and what we did, I know there were 77 indictments. I know I got arrested three times. Yeah, how do you get arrested? I would set up meetings, so it would be like, you know, hey Mark, you and Christos want to meet me, you know, let's meet over at the studio. And we're just sitting here chatting and all of a sudden, freeze, FBI, everybody down on the ground.

I was like, oh, shoot, what's this, what's this? And, you know, they would cuff all three of us and put us in cars and then drive us away and put you guys in separate interview rooms and uncuff me. And I go out the back door and go set up more meetings. Yeah. So we. So you had to sit there with John when he got arrested. Yeah. Yeah.

And I know with John, I think there were four or five of us in that one, but I'm kind of looking at him like, did you do this? You know, I'm trying to look at him to make him think that he's the one. Yeah, that he's the one responsible for one of his people because how could it be me? And I think, and I may be wrong, but I think he gave it up pretty easily once they started the interrogations. Did they try to pin you for anything? Yeah. Like a bunch of stuff, right? Yeah.

How did that go? Well, I, I wasn't there for the interview. I didn't, I didn't. But I'm sure in court you saw some of the stuff. Well, John pled guilty. And there weren't too many trials. See, that's the beauty that I try to, when I talk to administrators. Man, the undercover is one of the best arrows you have in your quiver.

Because you use an informant, he's got baggage. You got a wiretap. They may mean that or they may not. But when you got an undercover agent that understands the element of the offense, and you're going face to face with the bad guy, essentially getting them to fill in the elements, you've got a solid case and about the only thing they can do

is somehow attack the undercover agent and it very solemn works. I mean... Like entrapment? Is that a possible? Yeah, oh yeah. I mean, they always try to raise entrapment. I mean, that's... But again, it comes down...

I apologize, it's not being Don Johnson. You know, it's Jenny explaining to me what ecstasy is and how it works. and everything. But you trying to facilitate the super note, that wouldn't classify as entrapment? No, oh, no, no, because, one, they were predisposed to do other crimes,

but I just gave them the opportunity. You know, it wasn't, it kind of wasn't like, if you don't bring me the super note, we're going to kidnap your daughter or, you know, even if I said, if you don't bring me the superintendent, I'm not, I'm not going to deal with you again. That wouldn't even be, that wouldn't be entrapment. And typically, typically, and again, it depends on the

jurisdiction, but if you're predisposed to commit crimes, it doesn't really matter what the crime is that you're committing. You know, it's almost like you can't be entrapped for selling heroin if you're a cocaine and crystal meth dealer. I see. And for it to be, be entrapment, you have to kind of like, uh, like restrict their ability to say no. So by using coercion to say like, do this for me or else I'll do this to you, that would be entrapment because then their will is kind of suspended. I, maybe, I, maybe a better example kind of would be one of the guys I was dealing with, uh, in the Vietnamese gang case, his, our main target went out of the country. Well, I went to his brother and said, hey, uh,

you know, I can't remember the guy's name now. It's been a long time. But, you know, your brother said he was going to get a kilo of meth for me. And I need that now. And he says, my brother's not here. I said, I know. But he said, you would handle it for me. Well, I can't get a hold of him.

I said, I need it now. And so he eventually went and got me the drugs that we needed. So maybe, you know, that was kind of close to entrapment. But as I recall in that, I mean, he had a prior conviction, so it, you know, it wasn't. But it usually, I'm trying to think of a better example of a real entrapment. But law enforcement, FBI, we just don't go out after innocent people. You're trying to find people that are doing crime. Yeah, they're doing.

I talk about it in my book, The Last Undercover. Which I haven't talked. Did I tell you, I wrote a book? That's a beautiful book. And the last undercover, I had a guy that was, he said that he had 10 kilos of cocaine to sell. And then he ended up, couldn't come up with it. And it was like, okay. I mean, you know, it was like, move on.

And I'm not going to force you. do it and everything. And then about a year later, it calls me once two people killed. So it was like, you know, so, but I mean, if you can't do it, you can't do it. Yeah. So then this case goes to trial. It gets, it goes pretty, pretty easily. I imagine there's so much evidence. We only had a couple that pled innocent. Yeah, the only, not guilty. Yeah, we had one of the main guys, Mr. Chen, who John Wu introduced me to. We didn't even get into that aspect of the case, but part of that was we were going to build a meth lab

in North Korea. What? Oh, did I forget to mention that? Yeah. Wait, so how does that go? So I'm rocking and rolling with the weapons, with the drugs, the money. They're seeing that I've got money and everything.

So John Wu and... Mr. Chen. I called him Mr. Chen because he didn't really have an anglicized first name. And we were sitting in his office, and he spoke very broken English. John, John isn't that easy to understand, but I can't understand him. And they lay out these essentially blueprints for this manufacturing. they want to build through their connections a meth lab in North Korea. And it's set out so that it will be 600 kilos of meth.

I get 200 kilos. John and Mr. Chen get 200 kilos. And the North Korean government gets 200 kilos. The North Korean government will protect it. They will guarantee that it gets out of the country. But it's a one-time manufacturing. And then we have to turn over the place. plant to North Korea and they're going to make it a laundry detergent factory.

And they're explaining all this to me. And I have the same look you have right now that, what, a laundry detergent factory? And I went back to my case agent and I said, Omar, does this make any sense to you? And he says, let me call DEA. And he called a contact to DEA that said, yeah, the same equipment that could make meth could make laundry detergent. So that's when, as I mentioned earlier, I wanted to go to North Korea. I mean, this is like, okay, okay, this is pretty cool.

If I can get to North Korea, but you can't get to North Korea. I mean, I guess Dennis Rodman got there, but, you know, with an American passport, you can't really get in there. So now we're going to try to, I got screwed, but we were trying to buy a South American passport that someone introduced me to you, they get it. I did get a Chinese, a counterfeit Chinese passport that they made for me. We haven't gotten into my name. So my first undercover name was Robert Jason Bourne.

And this was... Was it really? Yeah. And this was before the movies. This was the Robert Ludlam book. So I always kept Bob as my first name because I didn't want you running in on the street and say, hey, Chuck, how you do it? It's good to have you on the podcast last week.

Yeah. It's like, or, you know, hey, Bob. and the bad guy says, I thought your name was Chuck. So I always kept Bob, but it was born. And then my second undercover name was Robert William Wallace. Fiddyed him from Braveheart. And then my third undercover name was Robert David Webb, which is Jason Bourne's real name if you watch any of the Bourne trilogy.

So I have a passport. Someone snapped a picture. There's kind of like a... at museum at Headquarters, FBI headquarters, which I guess most people can't get into, and I haven't seen it, but somebody was in there and saw the counterfeit passport and it's on display. So they took a picture of it and sent it to me, but there it is my cute little picture and Robert David Webb. But now, if you're going on the behest of the North Korean government, if they know that you're going over there to build this lab, why would they not grant you access?

I think they probably could have, but I think they are just so suspicious. anybody other than Dennis Rodman that they weren't going to do it. So John, you know what? It comes back now that you mention that. John was a U.S. citizen, but he had two passports. He had a Chinese passport and a U.S. passport. And so we had decided, so I paid for the counterfeit Chinese passport.

But then someone else hooked me up with someone who was going to get me some passport in South America. And I don't remember, because I don't speak any foreign languages. So it's like, I can't really come across as a Colombian or something. And I don't know why they didn't, I don't know if a Canadian passport would have worked.

I don't really know. But anyway, I couldn't get it. And the FBI wasn't going to let me go to North Korea anyway. But so we were, Mr. Chen was one of his counts was this, this conspiracy to set up a meth lab. And of course, we couldn't set up them. The U.S. government can't set up an illegal meth lab. But it was just so cool to think and to have them on tape saying that, yeah, this would be protected.

I mean, it would have been so much fun to meet Korean officials. Building the meth lab and everything. Kim Jong-il, Kim Jong-un, you know. Just sit there and meet them. So when you were in court, did you have to look these guys on the face? Oh, yeah. And what was that experience? Like, I mean, in this photo with John, you guys are buddy-buddy, you're wearing Santa

hats, you're hanging out. You've worked together for years. I'm sure you're familiar with who his family is. I'm sure he knows some things about your cover or maybe some real things about your life. And then you're sitting in court across from it being like, yes, I'm undercover. Like, do you remember the moment when he realized that you were the informant or that you were the film? Well, he pled guilty. So I never happened.

And after he was arrested, I never saw him again. What about some of the other people that didn't plead guilty that you saw? In that case, well, Mr. Chen, that didn't bother me. I didn't like him anyway. Yeah. So that didn't bother me. Did you see the look on their face when they were like, now calling to the stand, the federal agent? And then you walk up and they were like.

It's interesting. In that case, actually, they all knew before I walked in. I mean, the term is discovery. When you have discovery, you turn over. The defense has all the tapes, all the transcripts, everything like that. So they knew. And they knew pretty quickly that I was the undercover agent. And with Chen, he never looked at me.

He just kind of kept his head down or never really looked, never confronted me. I'm trying to think if I ever had somebody that really tried to glare me down. I really didn't go to court that often just because there weren't that many guys that pled. So much evidence. So much evidence. That pled not guilty because it was just, even most defense counsels say, look, you're better off. With the evidence of here, you're better off going in with a guilty plea and expressing a little bit of Mayacopa. And then we, but if you went to say you're not guilty and not responsible.

Then you're going to get more years. Yeah. So now you go home. All these guys get arrested. The case is closed. Yeah. You're not worried at all that these guys will send someone after you. Like, yo, this guy set us up.

They got 50 of our guys locked up in jail. They messed up our whole thing. Even guys over in China that are like, oh, our contacts all just got jammed up because of this one guy. Yeah. Let's go take them out. Yeah. I mean, there was some way.

It was kind of funny because the case, everybody's wrapped up on Friday. Saturday and Sunday. Well, on Monday, I'm getting calls from China because they can't find Mr. Chen. And I'm saying, I don't, you know, I saw him Saturday night. I don't know what happened. You know, I haven't seen him since Saturday night. Do you want to go into the story? Please. That's why we're here. So my, I, Jenny was coming on to me. And look, look at me. This is, this face is not anything that you want to come on to. You know, with makeup, I'm like a two and a half on a scale of 10.

I don't know about that. So we ended up, I brought in an undercover girlfriend who was, she was very attractive. She was a Filipino, great, I mean, she was an FBI agent, very attractive. Her husband was a doctor. And my love language is not gifts. I'm cheap, but hers is. so her husband would, you know, buy her diamond tennis bracelet, and we'd meet that weekend, or, you know,

we'd meet for dinner with the bad guys. And it wasn't every day she was with me, but occasions she'd come with me. And she'd go, oh, honey, look what you bought me this weekend, you know, and she would wear the diamond bracelet that her. And I always said, I said, you know, you're beyond me. I can't afford you. And so the way we wrap this up,

and it's a long story and I got to go back to June but headquarters there was a urinating contest between Newark and Los Angeles and headquarters said that I wasn't allowed to expend any more money

and I was livid I mean I'm driving my two and a half hours from my warehouse back to my home and my case agent saying because of what happens

some administrative bureaucratic BS, we can't expend any more money. And I am literally using every word I learned in the Marine Corps and every word that I learned in my various undercover capacities and all of a sudden it hits me, divorce. And so I came up with the idea that everybody liked Judy and that my wife found out about Judy, she's suing me for divorce.

She is frozen all of my assets and I can only liquidate ordinary daily expenses. But the divorce will be final in August. And so it was like the Monday after the, we knew in June when everything was going to go down. So only in August, like I'm making this up, But like if Monday is, if August 21st is a Monday, that's when the divorce is final.

So Newark, they had a great scam. They had a fake wedding with all their people and they arrested people. Well, I was having a divorce party at the Playboy Mansion. And Hugh Heffner didn't know about it. We didn't clear it. But we had guys coming over from China because they were going to go to the Playboy Mansion. Literally at the Playboy Mansion. Yeah.

Well, that's where they thought it was going to be. And because we arrested everybody. So on Monday, when I get the phone call from China, I said, I don't know, I saw Mr. Chene. He was there Saturday night. I think he hooked up with a blonde. And I don't know, but I'll look for him. Well, I call my case agent. I said, I got guys from China calling me.

And he contacts headquarters. And headquarters said, tell Bob not to do it. You know, they're trying to triangulate him. They want to kill him and all this. And I said, please put that in a memo that China is trying to triangulate me. to kill me, but I guess getting back to the thing. I've never really worried about it. It's just, people ask me now, it's like, I'm so freaking bored now.

I wish somebody had been come after me. I mean, this is wild. Yeah, I mean, it was a great life. Like I said, Forrest Gump of the FBI, it was a great life. And I truly miss the undercover work. I don't miss the bureaucracy. I don't miss the courts. I don't miss, I don't even miss other agents, really.

I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't kind of that squadroom, locker room camaraderie. I was a zero personality that, you know, preferred to be on the high wire alone without a net. Wow. And was there anything you did before you would do an undercover case that you kind of like did to prep? Was there ever like a ritual? Was there ever a thing that you did? Like how you address? Would you practice?

No. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you would. I mean, I did a lot of research. I would go in, you know, as again, coming back to Sun Su, he who knows himself and knows his enemy will succeed in 100 battles. So I wanted to know as much about the target of the investigation, enough about the violations so that I understood the elements, kind of what I needed him to say where I needed him to go. I needed to know enough about my

backstory that I was no longer Bob Hamer. I was Bob Wallace or Bob Bourne or Bob Webb, you know, so that so that I could come up with that. You had fake IDs or for all the aliases? Yeah, yeah, I had, I had, the Bureau was pretty good about the backstopping, so, so that was good. Wow. But so I lived my cover. So I became when I, when I turned it on, I was no longer Bob Hamer. You know, even my wife will go to some social gathering. She said, become somebody else because you're more fun when you, you know, kind of, you know, you talk to people when you're undercover.

You know, when I go to a party now, I usually just sit there and it's like, ah, These guys, they're not all that interesting. And that is another episode of camp with my good friend Bob Hamer, former undercover FBI operative. I mean, this guy's just a G. I mean, Operation Smoking Dragon. He was, at first I was like, dude, you don't need to be busting people for cigarettes. And all of a sudden, it's like, oh, they're getting warheads?

Okay, maybe I'm not the candy, like literal. Anyway, if you're interested in learning more about the FBI, about Bob's operations, the things that he's been up to, maybe even seeing some pictures from his operations that he shared with us, I would check out the newsletter. It's in the description. You can also hit this QR code right here. All the information will be right there, sent out three times a week. Super, super interesting stuff. And if you like this episode, I have a good feeling you're going to like the last episode we do with Bob. If you haven't seen it, it's right here. Click that in the description right now.