Camp Gagnon - Greatest Paralympian Ever Explains How She Lost Her Legs

Episode Date: March 8, 2023

Oksana Masters, the most decorated winter Paralympian of all time, talks about how she lost her legs, how she won her first gold medal, and what it was like in a Ukrainian orphanage. WELCOME TO CAMP.Mark Gagnon is our HostWill Schwartz is our Content Producer and Lead EditorAce Taylor provides Additional EditingSpencer Weinstein is our Community ManagerKostis Zacho is our Clips Editor

Society now sees me as like, oh, she has no legs. I got my comments about my legs and someone's like, oh, do we laugh? Yeah, I know. You probably horrify people, right? Yeah. Because you always come in and just be like, let's go eat. I want to go to I hop and everyone's like, whoa. Oh my God, I'm going to have to use that.

I never did that one before. There's going to be way more of these throughout the episode. So you can just have them. This is Oxana Masters. She was born with physical birth defects caused by radiation from Chernobyl and overcame a life of physical and mental hardships to become one of the most decorated Paralympic athletes of all time. Today, we're going to talk about what it was like growing up in a Ukrainian orphanage,

how channeling rage into athletics saved her life, and how she risked permanent injuries to become a Paralympic gold medalist. Now, enjoy my conversation with Oksana Masters. Welcome to camp. Oxana Masters. That's way too loud, actually. Now that I realized that we were supposed to do ASMR, that's what you wanted to do before, right? Yes.

So soft. Yes. You know what I should do? I should have my voice like this with my legs on, and they should talk like this. When my legs are off and you just get really quiet. Okay, so where was I going? Yeah. So we were just saying before, so you, I mean, just like a little backstory,

born in Ukraine and then became the most decorated Paralympian in the winter sports of all time ever. That's basically the whole story. That's it. I'm, like I said, pretty boring. But just like rewinding all the way to sort of like where it starts. Yeah. The reason you were giving up for adoption specifically was what? Tadda.

My hair wouldn't curl. They saw that, so that's really what it was. That's the thing. I was born with naturally curly hair. What? Yeah, I know. Very curled. But you're lucky because I know that we're just going to tell him.

This is not. But you can straighten yours. So you're. That's true, but you can curl your hair? No, it will not. It's people have made it a mission like hairstylist. I'm like, well, I'll do it. I'll do it.

And they do. And then they curl it and they go to the other side and it's straight. So they put a lot of hair spray in it. And then I'm like a walking fire hazard. Yeah, that is an issue. But girl, you got to get like a Dyson air wrap. Have you used those? The hair dryer from Dyson.

No, this is the air wrap. Wait, so is it natural curly then? My hair is naturally curly. Okay, don't try me on that. All right. This is natural lusciousness. But if you can get Dyson air wrap, you just wrap it up, boom, and then it'll be curly beautiful.

I'm going to get you hooked up with this. Watch. We can fix this little problem, okay? The leg thing, I can't fix. But the hair thing, that's easy. That one's an easy one. That's fixable. Yeah, exactly.

But yeah, it was my birth defects. My hands were all webbed, which I should have, that should have been my sign. should have been a swimmer because I had six toes too. Wait, for real? Yeah. Which is not affected by radiation. Six toes. It's hereditary from your parents.

Your parents will have it and it's like a passed down gene. Oh, really? So I'll have to ask one of my birth parents like which one, which one did it. Are you still in touch with them? No, I've never met them. I've never seen them. You know nothing. I know nothing about them.

I connected my birth brothers that found out. Right. communicating with them through social media. Oh, and so you know your birth siblings? Yeah. I mean, through like literally just Google Translate and talking. I've never met them in person. Oh, wow.

So they weren't in the orphanage necessarily with you? No. No, they were born, healthy. And how did you connect with them? So when I was in 2015, I went back to Ukraine, but not to Kiev. I didn't go to where I was born. And because it was the ADA anniversary, which is the American Disability Act, And it was the 25th year anniversary of that.

And then in 2014-15, Russia was invading Ukraine. And so a lot of the military Ukrainian men and women were coming back injured. They don't have the resources that we do in America for prosthetics. So the U.S. Embassy of Kiev invited me over there to kind of do that. And then talk, go through some orphanages and see them and show how powerful adoption can be because they're trying to pretend like it doesn't happen, and kids are not being given up for adoption there. Yeah, of course.

And so I don't like to say defects. I feel like that's kind of derogatory. But like, what were the, what's a good word for it? You tell me. I just think birth defects. I don't know. It's okay to say. It's not a defect, but it's like just physical difference.

I don't know. Differences. Let's go with that. What were the differences you were born with that? Because now you've had certain surgeries and operations to change some of those things and sort of mitigate some of the problems. What were the things that you were born with?

So I was born with my legs. And what all caused it, like the backstory to it was I was born. Chernobyl happened three years before I was born. And what a lot of people don't realize is the radiation levels there are still to this day higher than it was when it first leaked. It just rises. And that land is so toxic still. Even in this current war that Russia is started in Ukraine and those guys were going back. back to Russia was sick because of the because they were in the Chernobyl area. The radiation is higher now than it was.

Still, it's rising. Wow. Yeah. And it's going to take like hundreds of years for it to go down. So. And where was your family in relation to the incident? Like where how far? About like 48 kilometers, but they don't know like.

So and it kind of is all intertwined and it's so complicated. I found out, we found out it was radiation when my mom adopted me at seven and a half. and I went to my first dentist, and I had radiation when they took the x-rays in my grown teeth. And so they were like, oh, it's radiation induced because when you have birth defects or born with differences, physical differences, a lot of times it's localized. So it'll just be like your legs are impaired or your arms or maybe one or the other, but it would be the same type of a born without a leg, same type of a birth difference. Right.

And I was born with my legs. And they were, I was missing the weight bearing bone on both of them. My knee was kind of floating. My left one had a little short. It was like seven inches shorter and was arced in a sea. So I slept with it every night holding on. It was really flexible. Wait, what?

Yeah. And then I had six toes. Wait, your leg would be, you would hold on to your leg? Well, it's so short. It was like super short and it was arced in a sea. So like, it was like what I bonded to. Like an airplane pillow? If you basically, if you just, I don't know, like picture the, what is it, the movie, like scream from that creepy looking dude or whatever.

Like, or with a scary movie, not scream, scary movie. Yeah, I was that person's. But so it was just a lot. And they're really, and then my hands and also and. You said that they were webbed. They were webbed and just didn't. And then like, so now I had double joints of all the. And then also my.

hands like so I have this joint this joint like one two but I don't have the third one that you do right I just have two but they were double that that third one's overrated you don't even need that one you're not you're not missing out when they say size matters and the length matters it does in that moment okay it really does and legs too yeah yeah that's bullshit um so like they didn't even know at that time the internal things where I was my organs and the muscles because I was missing my I have one kidney I was missing parts of my stomach and this is what all things We learned when my mom took me to these doctors.

You didn't even know this for the first seven years of your life. I didn't know it was different. It was until I came to America. I know I found out. That you're actually better than everyone. Yeah, that I sounded really weird, not looked weird. I sounded really weird for my accent. That's crazy.

So growing up in the orphanage, so you still have like very present memories of that time. Yeah. The last orphanage. The other ones I don't because I moved around and lived in three. But it's the one that from 5 to 16, you're considered an adult. Oh, right. And that's the one I really remember because, and it was the last year is really what I remember. Right.

Because I was about to turn 8. And it's weird how like the smells and the sounds and it could just re-trigger. It's like in your body. It's crazy, right? Especially like I think they say that smell is the most, it is the most like triggering memory sense. Yeah. Like you can smell things and then just immediately remember things. Yeah.

Like, what are those smells for you that you smell and you're like... Dill? Like dillweed pickles. Really? Because why? That was just a really common food. I didn't even get it. I don't know why, but I smelled it in the orphanage.

It was always there because, like, my orphanage was, the last one was like, the other wing was an orphanage. But then it was like a boarding school, but not boarding school. Like, we think of a posh type one. Right. In the UK or anywhere. And those kids, basically they're. parents paid money to the government. And so they would just go and live there and get like room and food and then would go home

on vacations or things like that. Oh, I see. So they just was a way to help when they couldn't provide for them either. But they had a home. And were there resources at this orphanage? Was it like, for them? Yeah. But for you.

Yeah. Not so much? Not like that. No, because I, like, we did get to eat. And maybe this is why, like my mom also said, like, I smelled. like dill for like the first few months because it was in my pores it was just cooked all the time and the food and stuff is that a ukrainian thing or is that like just specifically at this i think it's a very slavic thing it is ukrainian thing and i do i do love pickles that is my still

i love pickles so you don't necessarily do have a negative and the juice like pickle juice too right oh my goodness you and my wife would get along so well she's just like sometimes she'll hit me up and go like literally late at night and she'll be like i need you to go to the corner store I need you to get a pickle. And I was like, is this an innuendo? She's like, no, I just literally need a deal. And the craving calls for a pickle, nothing will suffice at all. I'll come home at like two in the morning.

She goes, wake me up, I need a night pickle. And then I'll chop up a pickle and she'll just have a bite and go back to sleep. It's bizarre. Is this like, I don't understand what's happening? She didn't even, she wasn't even in an orphanage. I don't know what's going on. She just loves dill pickles. But yeah, it's a weird thing how it can like trigger those senses.

But for that specifically, you don't have negative connotation with that. Not with that. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And there's like, there's good, there's good memories and bad memories. It's not, like, it's not like it was held 24-7. Yeah, of course. But, yeah.

But were you constantly, it probably is difficult to remember, especially when you're seven. I don't even remember what I know when I was seven. But is it, were you thinking like, oh, I'm going to get out of here. I'm going to get adopted. Or did you just think you were going to age out? Did you have a lot of, like, cognitive thought about that? Well, I knew I wanted a mom because I saw kids that were, um, we, so they would all put us around for when there were potential parents that were interested in adopting.

And that's when we got to eat. And that's where we got to actually like cap of dress on. And they always flop a bow on your head. Oh, really? They dress you up for like the day. The day. And so you associate like, okay. So we have to put our best.

Like we have to look cute and be the chosen one. And so I've watched a lot of kids walk. I knew what a mom was. I was very aware of that. Because sometimes there was like harsh conditions there. And sometimes when they were really physical, I would go into some like some of the caretakers would take me home. And so for a night or two to really heal and then we'll come back to the orphanage.

And that is those small little moments is where I felt love and like mom. Yeah, of course. And I don't know why I knew the word mom like in Ukrainian. Yeah, yeah. Not any English. But that's all I wanted. And that's, I was very aware of that. Do they explain things to the children?

Like, oh, when, like, do they explain why you're in an orphanage? Do they explain what the context of this is? Like, because it's a bizarre thing to think that you were just growing up in an environment. And without being told what's happening, you might not know, like, oh, this is what a family is supposed to be. Yeah. This is what grandparents are. Like, this is what traditions are that people do in their families. So how was that explained to you?

And like, how did you learn those things? It wasn't explained. it's just feelings. You just, like, I associate it with, I feel safe here. And so this is what I want. And new mom, because some of the kids were like, oh, I'm going to get a mom. And the director of the orphanage of the caretakers would say, like,

well, this is why you don't have a mom because you either look like this or you're a bad girl and they know this. They would say that? Yeah. And so, like, you kind of learn, okay, but that never worked on me. I still got in trouble.

I never learned. That's why I took seven and a half years. Were you getting in trouble in Norfolk? Oh, yeah. Like what? I was just going in places I was not supposed to be going and sneaking out trying to get food because we were so hungry all the time. And climbing bookshelves all the time and just like. Oh, you were just wild child.

Yeah. But you were like. But you were like. You were active like from the jump. You just liked being active and like doing things. I loved moving my body and just being physical. Right. And even at that time, so at that time this is pre-surgery.

So you still had one leg. that was sort of like bent, I guess. Yeah, so it was like straight, it was like arched in like a little half-pressing moon. So yeah, so I didn't have the weight-bearing bone and I didn't pay attention in like anatomy class. So I don't really know if it's a tibia, the fibia. I think it's the tibia's the main weight-bearing bone.

Right. And the other one looked like a salt shaker. It was just sprinkled all over. So it wasn't really a fully formed bone. And then my ankles were fused up. So I walked on tippy toes with my six toes. And I did have seven surgeries in Ukraine. And one of them included removing the sixth toe and doing the webbing.

But I totally just lost my train of thought, actually. Getting the surgeries and being able to walk in the orphanage. Yeah, I taught myself how to walk because in theory I shouldn't have been able to walk. That's the thing I don't understand. Like all these impairments, but still you're just like, I'm going to go climb a bookshelf. Because I think it's like, this is the thing. Like, society now sees me as like, oh, she has no legs and just, because they can't imagine it. So they're like, well, how do you do this?

How do you? What? You can, like, you can go up the stairs. You can, oh, my gosh, you can go to the bathroom by yourself. And that's just fun ones. Like, oh, do you sleep in your legs and stuff? And it's like, no, I don't sleep in my legs. Are you kidding me?

But so, like, they don't see it. And it's really, really. hard in that aspect of it. Right. And so you were kind of like wild in the orphanage. Do you have friends that you still remember now that like, oh, we would do these things together. We were just like crazy. And like we would do these games or like we would get into trouble in these ways. Like were there any fond memories like that with any of the people?

Yes. Like so I had a really, really good close friend there. And then I had really two close relationships with two of the little boys there too. And we were like three musketeers and just. just like we were the smallest. I was a smallest one. So I got a lot of piggyback rides, but we kind of like, I don't want to say,

like ran that orphanage, but we kind of did amongst the kids. But yeah, it was just kids stuff, just being so curious and just getting in trouble and doing things. And I think I was that one that would always take it too far. And like they try to talk me like, Oaxana, let's like, don't do this. And then nothing good happens from it.

And then all of a sudden, nothing good happened from it. And then I would be gone for a little bit and then would come back. Right. And I think for me, it was the, that's when I felt seen is when I was getting in trouble. And so I kind of, I also love pushing buttons and sitting back and watching. I just didn't do a good job with not getting caught. So I got caught. That's funny.

But yeah. You would push buttons and then instead of running away and seeing it, you would just stay right there and be like, I push these buttons. That's very interesting. So like I guess at that time maybe you were overlooked or you felt overlooked. And then you were like, oh, if I act out, I can get some attention. I can get some acknowledgement, things like that. Classic like, I mean, look. No attention.

Or yeah, some attention is better than. I'm the youngest of almost seven kids. What? Yeah, no. My parents are seven kids. I have one younger sister. So I'm six of seven. Oh my gosh.

So I understand. Wait, and you're the younger one? I have one younger sister. One younger. Yeah. So I understand that feeling of like, oh, I'm going to act out. We're going to get some attention going here. Yeah.

Because I just felt like, I remember that feeling kind of just being like, oh, yeah, I don't know if what I say matters that much. Were you guys all close an age? I mean, everyone's like three years apart pretty much. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's similar. You totally get that.

It's kind of like an orphanage when you think about it. Totally. Yeah, your parents totally basically created this orphanage home the environment for you. There's a bunch of kids running around. Parents were somewhere. That's funny you say seven because that was only just seven orphans. So maybe. Yeah, wait.

How many, how many were at the orphanage you were at? Seven. That was it? Seven. Yeah. Oh, wow. So everyone was probably pretty close? Yeah. So we were, like, we were each other's family. And I think earlier when you were asking, like, did you, were you aware of family? Were you aware of grandparents and the traditions, all that. I think we didn't know that's what it was. There wasn't a name to it. Right.

Only thing I knew was mom and what my body felt being in that. And we wore each other's family and now looking back is what it was. So once a kid got adopted, did they bring another child in? No, it just kind of, it would stay pretty small. And it kind of sometimes there would be, but not really. Did you ever see a kid get adopted? And you're like, really, that kid? Yeah. You're like, that kid sucks.

Yeah. Because I got the junkie, like crappy bow. They got the better one. It's not because I looked bad. That's so funny. You're just literally looking at them being like, if I got that better, the marketing on me needs to be a little better. Yeah, it needs to be.

Give me something, a better outfit. You know what I mean? Maybe I should have laid off the dill. I don't know. They were like, she smells too much like pickles. Actually. That's so crazy. And then.

Yeah. And that's what I remember two specific families that told me, like, we're going to come and adopt you. We're going to bring you home. And they never come back. So it's just such a normal. Like, you don't know it's, you don't know anything except that's your normal. So you get very immune and not to expect anything. The only thing I got really excited is, oh, we're going to eat.

Right. Yeah, because it's going to be the big day. We're all going to dress up. I mean, yeah, that's like such a challenging thing because I don't know how else, how else do you think you can restructure that to where you're not giving this false hope to a bunch of Ukrainian orphans. You know what I mean? Like, if you're someone that wants to adopt children, is there a way that you can structure the adoption process

to where there's not like this false sense of hope? Like, oh, I might make it out of here. I think it's what happens in the U.S. There's a foster care system. And so, like, you create this, like, it's, but I think it's impossible to create that false hope, too, because people will change their mind or will find something out.

I don't know what the reasoning is. And I think it's just instead of those people, I think we just need to create better environments that it feels like home and that they are seen and they are heard and they're protected and not have to struggle once they do all of a sudden experience that if they're lucky enough to experience it. Yeah, of course.

The transition was the hardest on that end. And are you in school the whole time? Like you're learning and- We were in school, but I literally, like it was like 30 minutes to an hour a day, and when the teacher would, they kind of babysat in the way. And so we did like, because I could do three, like, digit math. I was really good.

And I don't know what happened when I came to America, but I went blind and couldn't do math. Wait, really? Instantly. Yeah, I have LASIC now. But like, I literally could do it. I saw 2020. And then, like, I don't know if it was the water or really good nutrition.

I don't know. My body was rejecting it. Yeah, no. As soon as it was like normal radiation in your body, it's like, no. That's what I'm saying. You might be a super, like a superhuman. No, I don't have that. I'm not like Bruce.

You never tried? Whatever his name is from Hulk. Be honest, you never just try to like lift something with your brain? You know, I never did that. I just tried to see once I learned what radiation was. Like if I glowed. That's what I'm saying. You might have something in there.

Like you've got to do meditation. See if you can start doing something. Maybe. Maybe these will grow back. These will grow back. So then what happens the day when you find out, oh, someone is going to come adopt you? What is that process like? Like from when my mom came?

Yeah, exactly. When your mom came. that someone says they will and then wouldn't. No, when your mom came. Well, so my mom, she saw a picture of me. I never met her. She never went to Ukraine to the orphanage I was in and picked me based on my amazing bow

and my amazing presence. She saw a disgusting black and white picture that literally looked like something from like the grudge or like the ring, the girl crawling out of the ring. Like it's black and white and I look very, I'm extremely malnourished. And I'm really, now I joke about her and I'm like mom you just like broken things because she's because like

and then we joke like how like maybe like she got me from like a bargain cave from the side of the orphanage because it was 50% off because like they don't want her don't worry and because like she's amazing though because she's like the kind of person like we have to put our dog down and she adopts another dog and she adopts a 10 year old blind dog and that's the kind of person so that's why I was saying like she likes broken things that's just so see this is the other thing I love Like we spoke with, are you familiar with Yonmi Park? She's a defector from North Korea and lived in terrible conditions and was malnourished and escaped with her mom and was sold. Like just had this like traumatic, terrible but triumphant story.

And she has a very similar sense of humor to you. She's like, she'll just go for it. Like she's not exactly easily offended. Like she's just like really funny and silly. And I'm curious, do you think that having a bit of like a, a difficult childhood adds to that comedic sensibility? Like, do you find yourself being offended by things? No, not really, not by like things like that.

It's more offended by like ignorant comments. They're just like, oh my gosh. And, and then I'm just like, well, I'm gonna, no, like, I'm gonna show you. But I think everyone in this world just needs to learn how to laugh with themselves and it's okay. Like I have my comments about my legs and someone's like, oh, do we laugh?

I don't know. You probably horrify people, right? Yeah. Because you almost come in and just be like, let's go eat. I want to go to IHOP and everyone's like, whoa. Oh my God, I'm going to have to use that. I never did that one before.

There's going to be way more of these throughout the episode, so you can just have them, all right? But like I say, like people with like below the knee amputees or single like amputees, it's like a paper cut or like an ink-owned hair. It's not that big of a deal. And then they're like, do I laugh? What do I do?

And it's like, dude, we all think about it. This is how we talk about it. Like, it's totally fine. Oh, so you make fun of other amputees. Yeah. Oh, God, yeah. That's like a Lamborghini Cadillac they're riding. You're like, if I had that femur.

Yeah. What I would do with that? I'd be in the NBA. Well, just the knee. That's what I'm like, once again, the size matters. Like, it does. Just the length of the knee. Yeah, you don't think about that knee.

Like, just being above or below the knee? That makes a huge difference. Massive difference. I'll never get that little knee pop kiss moment. That's a girl. Because I know that's what you were thinking of instantly. Wait, the knee pop where you go like, yeah.

Oh, that's so funny. Like Princess Diaries? Yeah. You ever saw the movie? Yeah, yeah, but it was a long time ago. That's where she gets the kiss and she's in the garden. Oh, yeah, it's like a slow motion, and then she flicked and then it hits all the lights and everything turns on.

That's an awesome movie, by the way. It is a good movie. I think to watch that again. That's been a long time since I've seen. That's a good one. Rewatch it. I thought that country with Genovia was a real country forever. Literally until I was like 16, I was like, yeah,

what's the capital of Genovia? And I realized it was like, oh, I just learned this in a movie and it's not a real place. It's not real place. It's not real. My bad. So. Cool. I knew that.

I was just making sure you guys. Yeah, yeah. Do you know that? Actually, I don't think you know that. So then, yeah, I'm interested with your mom. So you basically get, like, the people working there come and tell you and they're like, hey, some lady got our facts and she's going to like come get you? Like, what is that day like?

Do you remember that vividly? That day, yeah, that day was, but it didn't happen until two years later is when I met her. And the difference this time, so she never came to the orphanage. She just saw a picture and she tried to get me. right around my fifth birthday and Ukraine closed, put a moratorium on all foreign adoptions, which is a ban. And then the U.S. also had its own, like, bans on adoption stuff, political stuff has always gotten away. And she never really got, she never stopped fighting for me, even though during that time, she wanted a baby. She didn't want a five-year-old,

she didn't want a seven-year-old that she ended up with. And during that two years, she didn't realize I actually knew of her she thought thank God they never told her and she doesn't know I'm coming because if she thought I was coming last year and she's probably wondering where is she and but I did know of her I knew of her I knew her name and I got I asked to direct the director of that orphanage if I could look at her picture and so I did that and that was my reward for being good and And it was just her passport picture that they sent over. Which no one ever looks good in their passport picture. But she did. Really? In a weird way. I don't.

I don't know. It kind of makes you angry that she did. And now, because like you said, no one does. Yeah, of course. If this is a movie and they show like some beautiful woman, you'd be like, that's not real. Like, that's never going to happen. Yeah. But she actually was just killing it in the pit.

Well, she was crushing it. But I think, when I think, like, she just, in her picture, in her picture, she had this short curly hair and glasses and the rosy, rosy cheeks and just this honest smile in her eyes. And just one of those things that you're just, she's like, you felt, you felt like I was, or I felt like I was like connecting with her eyes and we were just talking. And so I, I looked, when they would allow me, I looked at a picture and memorized her face from her hair, top of her hair, and just like her eyebrow line, her eyes and her smile and just daydreamed about our life together. And then there were days where they'd use it against you and like,

no, you're not going to look. And this is why she's not coming because she sees that you're being a bad girl and she doesn't want you because of that. After that two years, you're like, start to wonder. But then I never really, like I said, learned from any of that. So I just continued to be bad.

Yeah, of course. But like, that's just so fucked up. So like they were treating your mom like Santa. Like they're just like... St. Nicholas is the one I knew because it wasn't Santa. I was like St. Nicholas. Wait, they would actually say that?

Yeah. They're not calling you. Oh, her St. Nicholas, but like instead of Santa. Yeah. But. Wow. And then, but she eventually shows up. And then she shows up in that night, um, she was supposed to come the day during the day.

And then I don't know, whatever. She said she had travel issues now that we talk about it. But I didn't know why she wasn't coming. And I threw the biggest hissy fit because I thought if I went to sleep because now it's night time and she's not there. And I was told she's going to come. and they're like, we'll wake you up when she comes, we'll wake you up and she comes, but like, you know not to trust anything there.

Yeah, at that point. Yeah. And I just threw the biggest hiss event. I'm like, I'm not going to sleep because I thought if I close my eyes, like she will not come. Yeah. And she did. I felt that night, in the middle of the night, I felt this weird, like, pressure on the bed and woke up. They let me, because to get me to go to sleep, they let me bring my parents.

picture, her picture to my bedside stand, which is very rare. I don't know why he just decided to be so nice that day. And then they wake me up. There's my mom, my aunt Sherry, that came with her. And then the translator and the director of the orphanage and one of the caretakers all around the bed. And they said in Ukrainian, like, Oksana, do you know who this is? And I look at all of them and I look at my mom who's kneeling down. And I know you. You're my mom. I have your picture.

And I went to my bedside and, like, showed her the picture. Like, that's as if I'm claiming her saying, this is you. You're mine. You're not going anywhere. You adopted your mom. Yeah, basically. So she, that's true. I never thought of him.

Yeah, you're like, you're my mom. And then my mom was like, and I know you. You're my daughter. And we said that through the community translation. And that's our first words. And then she gave me. a stuffed animal that looks like a dumbo stuffed elephant that her mom actually made for all three of her kids to give to their kids. And she made one for my mom, even though my mom adopted me single parent.

She never was married. The only thing she knew is she wanted kids. She wasn't really sat on, I need the whole picture perfect marriage kids, everything. And then she gave that, and I took it. I had no idea what it was, but I loved it. And it was the first toy I had. It's the first anything soft I had. And then I just went to sleep and like with a smile on my face and just couldn't believe. Like I couldn't believe it and I could believe it. Like I knew it was different this time.

Like looking at her picture and just. Did you feel the warmth? Like once you guys met, was it like instantly? It was instant. Instant safeness, if that's even a word. Yeah. Yeah, that's such an interesting thing. It makes me wonder how humans, like, our brains can adapt and, like,

into it warmth and safety and comfort. And that you were in, like, a fight or flight situation for so long. And, like, an orphanage is just, like, such a tough situation, obviously. But, like, because it's almost, I don't know, I don't want to compare it to, like, a prison. But as a kid, there's no real warmth. And there's just, like, routine sort of arbitrarily aside. decided. And then automatically, you're just put into this extremely kind, loving environment with a woman that, like, really fought to be with you. Yeah. And I didn't even know the extent

of the fight she was going through. Right. Of course. Yeah. And so immediately you just kind of like pack up your very, like few things you had at that point. No. Are you kidding? Mark, I had to give my underwear back and everything on my body I had to give back. Really? Yeah. And so you just, she brings clothes for you? Yeah. And then, wow. And that's, when I realized my mom has no style. What does she put you with? Be honest. You know, like, she's mixing, like, checkered and, like, stripes together with different colors.

And I love my mom, but I also know, like, I know my place. I'm not, like, a rocket scientist. I'm not like this smart, incredible, like, lawyer. So I'm not going to, that's why I'm an athlete. I know I'll do this. My mom's not, her place really, she's got a unique style. She's a professor. She's a professor.

Yeah. This is someone that, you know, is very academic. like very studious. Yeah. Maybe not a fashionista. Yeah. That's not crazy, right? Yeah, right?

I mean, this is my favorite thing, too, because, like, you were adopted. You lived in America a long time, but you're still Ukrainian at your heart. Because I know Eastern Europeans love nice clothes, love a nice bag, and that's still in you. Yeah. And of course, the girl with no legs is the one that's obsessed with heels and shoes and limit. It's like so mean. It's like, you want this? You want this?

You want this? Yeah. It's like. And that's what I feel like when I see like the nice like perfect pair of heels because it makes a difference. Like heels. I have to this before. Side tangent. You can choose your shoe size.

Yes. Which I can. The only thing is if I go bigger, it's a longer foot. So it's harder to clear it when you're taking a step. Oh, I guess. So there's like a give and take for everything. And if your brain is sort of used to like, oh, this is what the clearance is for this foot, you add an extra quarter of an inch, you're going to bump into stuff. But if you see a sick pair of shoes that you like.

I will shove my foot or cut the wrong. rubber, whatever I need to do. They don't even have to be comfy. You know what I mean? Like, you can go up and down half a size. Yeah. So you get the perfect pair of shoes. You're like, I'm wearing these.

Yeah. See, that's kind of convenient. That is convenient. There's so many convenient things about it. That's what I'm saying. As long as it's two inches. We always hear about the bad parts. I'm just saying you get to throw on a heel.

That's kind of nice. Yeah. Or like there's an exclusive pair of sneakers. You're a sneaker head. I don't know if we clarified that before. And I'm so happy that like this leisure wear, whatever the style is finally. and like it's cool to wear sneakers with dresses

because that was me. I was doing it. I just want to say, I was doing that way before it was a thing. You're still a hipster about it? You're like, look, I was in the orphanage. We weren't allowed to wear heels, but I was doing it before everyone, okay,

if you think about it. Yeah. And so you show up in America, you get on the plane with your mom. Can you even speak English at this point? No. So my mom speaks no Ukrainian and I speak no English.

And so you guys are talking through... Sharrades. No. Playing charades. And she did learn before she came. she learned some Ukrainian words and stuff. And the crazy thing is so like in Ukraine, when they found out an American woman was going to get me,

they're like, oh, we have to make her seem smart. Our kids are really, really smart. Ukrainians are smart. So they taught me how to say one word, which is a baby doll. But they forgot to teach me what a baby doll was because I've never seen one and I had no idea. And so they said, oh, she's a smart girl. She knows baby doll. And they told that before she came.

So my mom brings me a baby doll thinking, know what this is and I know some English and there's this picture where I'm just like she gives me this doll and I'm like looking at like what do I do with like I don't know what this is you've never seen a baby doll before no we didn't have toys she sent a care package of toys and for my birthday and the one that they put up on the shelf just to look at but it was for everyone it wasn't for my birthday sixth birthday and um to play with but no they weren't just for everyone to look at yeah you just look at it and then and then they put it it up somewhere else. They took everything else. She sent some coloring stuff.

That's how they let you play with the toys, just like a museum? But one. Yeah, just that one. What is the like, this feels mean. Some can say that. Am I misunderstanding something? Like, it seems like they're being intentionally, was there just no money? Like, why? Yeah, there's no money. There's, so in the orphanages, there's local ones and then there's government-ran ones. And what I found out later on for every year, a child, whether you relinquish them at birth, and that's what happened to my birth parents, they were forced to relinquish me. And so I've learned that's how I actually got my name because my mom, she's like, well, if I can't be your mom, I want to give you my name.

And that's how I learned I got my name. Back to like what we were talking about, all this whole like birth story, birth parents and stuff. But they, when you relinquished, and then even though you have no rights anymore and that child is not yours, you send money into that government ran one because in theory they have a bed, they're getting food, they're going to school, they have clothes, and they're raising you. But why? Because they're not your child either. So it's so weird. And that's like to paint the picture of what I remember. and the last one, the day my mom came, it was so cold. It was during the winter. The heat was not

existent ever. And the pipes, the radiators on the side of the wall bursted, and there were women there on their hands and knees chipping away the ice that froze on the floor of that hallway. And that's how cold it was. And just really, really dark. It'd be interesting to see it now, but it's so dark and a lot of cement walls, which, everyone like cement's really in right now, especially in Europe. And I'm like, oh, God, this is freaking me out right now. You go into a Jopold. No, no, this is not cool.

Yeah, like industrial chic. Yeah. No, thank you. Which I guess it is, it is now. I'm getting to it. But it's hard to like rewire your brain not to associate it in that place. Of course. I mean, how could you? I mean, it's like insane. Yeah, I guess I am so disassociated or detached from how difficult the conditions truly can be in. Because, again, I guess Ukraine at the time was probably even poor.

It was poorer than it is now, right? Like at that time, this is at the dissolution of the Soviet Union. So it was at a much worse place. Yeah. And so really no money. And you were at the government ran. Yes, government ran. And when I say government ran, a lot of shady shit happened there.

And that would not really go anywhere else. And my mom got a sense of it when she was there. And she asked like, oh, can we go upstairs? And they just like walked in front of her said, no. And then she got this weird gut feeling like, what? And because there were a lot of bad things that were happening to us. And sometimes the punishment would be upstairs and like what was happening. And being, and then like medical care too, I was the smallest one.

They reuse needles too. So when you get a shot, you go down from all the kids there, not just a seven, but all of them. And I was the smallest and a girl. So I got like this crazy, normally scar because they just, the needle gets so dull every time you reuse a needle that you have to like smash it in. And it's just lack of resources, lack of care, lack of anything because the caretakers are also getting paid nothing to care for them too. So it's like, and there's bad eggs everywhere. Yeah, of course. I mean, that's just like the idea that they're using, it's like difficult to fathom that that's happening in an orphanage.

Like, yeah, this is, I don't know. The story, again, reminds me of Yonmi Park where she's in, like, this dictatorship, this, like, authoritarian regime. But you are not even in a dictatorship. This is just happening because of, I guess, it seems too malicious to just be happening because of lack of resources, I guess. I didn't know at that time, but I was a disabled kid. Yeah, and you have no reference of what's normally. You're like, yeah, I guess I'm the last one to use the needle. Like, you don't have a reference.

Okay. Maybe I talk too much. I don't know. I mean, that's so bizarre. That's tragic. But you also, it's like, I'm sure like her, like she didn't know any different. That was her normal life. And so when I did come to America and had all that, the hardest thing was getting comfortable with being safe.

And like this chair is nice. I did not like it when I was a kid, though. It had been too nice. And so I slept on the floor because that's what I was more familiar. my body, the feeling, nobody was hurting me anymore before I went to bed. So, like, it was hard to go to sleep without that because that wasn't normal. And that, like, that transition was really, really tough. Do you think you have a different capacity for pain?

Like, either physical or mental? Like, obviously, we can discuss this more. We're talking about, obviously, your Olympic achievements. But I'm curious if, obviously, I mean, I know this has been spoken about with, like, sports psychologists that like traumatic childhoods often lead to really great athletes and people that are able to achieve things in a lot of different fields. I'm curious if you're, I mean, the desire to sleep on the floor shows like a propensity and a threshold for what you're able to endure physically and mentally. I'm curious like if you're in the middle of a workout or you're

in the middle of a, you know, you're rowing or skiing or something if you get to the end and you're like, oh, my threshold for what I'm able to endure, the depth of your pain cave is so much deeper than, you know, a kid that grew up in Manhattan that slept in a, you know, silk sheets his whole life. I don't know. Silk, silk sheets can sometimes have their own downside, too. So, I mean, of course. But, like, this is, it's a weird thing.

I've heard this quote before where the worst thing that can happen to a human, there's the two worst things that can happen to a human is either you don't get anything that you want or you get everything you ever wish for. And I'm just curious now that you're no longer in like these, you know, tragic, traumatic conditions. If you think about those times and you're like, wow. I'm, I have an advantage mentally to endure things. It just seems, I don't know, just coming home and sleep on the floor, just, it's, it's, it's an indication.

Well, it was nice. Like, I was like, oh, this is home. This is. And then it took a while. But I think it's like, I don't know. Like, I have this mixed feeling about people who say they, their pain cave and their tolerance and their thresholds higher. I think it's a mindset. I don't think it's like a physical thing.

It's a mindset. And the way I looked at pain. I dissect because like, so I've really learned how to dissect every part of pain on my body and really pay attention to it because, and I also, on top of that, you got beat up if you showed any form of emotion. If it was happiness or if it was sadness, if you were in pain and you wanted to cry, don't cry because it's just going to get bad. Oh, wow. So I internalized a lot and really learned what this pain is, what's going to come next, and it became normal in my perspective of that now as an athlete is it makes me feel alive. The difference as an athlete is I am

pushing my body here and I feel so alive. I'm doing this to me. I'm in control and I'm familiar with this kind of pain. And so it's totally a mindset and that I don't I never think of like oh I have a bigger pain tolerance than you because I don't. Right. But the fact that. But the fact that that there are so many things outside of your control. I can't control my legs. I can't control that I didn't have, I wasn't born with legs or I can't control the joints of my fingers, but I can control how hard I go

in this workout or I can control how quickly I'm rowing or whatever. It really does give you a sense of autonomy. Like I'm in control of these muscles that, I wonder, do you feel like you have more physical awareness? Yes. Like in terms of, it's an interesting thing. I've been thinking about this a lot, like trying,

I'm meditating more now and like trying to have like more presence and things like that. Yeah, mindfulness, exactly. But I'm becoming aware of my body in a way that I was never aware of before. I think, at least in the West or maybe in, you know, more modernized countries, people just kind of lose touch with their bodies, I think, in a way. Yeah. But because of, you know, the way that you were born, I wonder if there is a, you have a greater sense of your body and you're much more in tune and able to listen to it. Yeah, I think that I definitely do. And because I think it's not just me. I think it's anyone born with like any physical difference too because you're,

we're more aware of how you move your body. Your body is where it is in space. And earlier I was going to, I got like totally distracted because you're saying like, well, how did you teach yourself how to walk and all this stuff? But then it's like if you think about if you ever, so now you're becoming more mindful of small things you never knew. And then if you think about if you. break a leg or break your arm, if you just take your, like, mind away from it, your body will

adapt on the fly. If you want to get this coffee, you'll find a way to drink this coffee somehow. It's just the mind, and that's totally like... This is what I mean, though, when it comes to, like, mental fortitude. I don't know. I mean, I don't want to, like, ascribe things to you, but I do think that you might have a greater capacity for mental fortuitousness because, like... Because I'm half a person, so I have to. saying but like you just been like again I don't know like you hear these stories of people that like you know the guy that got his arm stuck in the rock and cut it off I don't know if I could do that but he put

his brain but I think the fact that you taught yourself how to walk or you overcame these things it's kind of proof to me that if you put specific humans in specific situations their brains can overcome and just force and will themselves to survive yeah I think it's not just specific humans I think we're all capable of it people don't realize it we're all resilient we're all all capable of it. It's the only limiting factor is how much we want to feed into our thoughts and which way you want to feed those thoughts. Yeah, of course. Did you start going to school the second you got to the U.S.? Or like, what was that transition process? Well, I was a dummy and I decided to do that because in Ukraine, my school wasn't really school. I didn't know that. So I'm like, I'm ready to go to

school. My mom was going to take like this leave for not pregnancy, but child leave. And she was going to do that for a year because I didn't to make sure I could speak English and just know what a family is and bond to her and make that connection. But I was ready to go to school because I thought it was going to be like that. I missed being around people until I realized wow school in America is very different. It's like for 30 hours it felt like it's really like eight or whatever. What grade are you put into? So I was technically graduated from like third grade or in third grade in Ukraine, but because I didn't speak in English, I went to first grade. And so I was like that older one. So I was the older one when I had the car and my friends didn't. That was cool.

That's kind of nice. But not when you're, but then I had a translator and I was really, really mad because she spoke Russian. She didn't speak Ukrainian at all and they promised that. And it's weird. This is the one thing I don't know. And I'm kind of curious the part that I lived, like why as a child, was I so mad and aware that she was speaking Russian and not Ukrainian. And that was because I was on the western, central western, that it was considered the gateway from the west to the east of Ukraine. Right. And there are parts where, I mean, they just don't speak that language.

But yeah, I was really excited to go to school. Was there any idea or notion of like Russia, Ukraine, in terms of geopolitics or like national relationship? Or was it just the fact that she wasn't speaking the exact, language and dialect that I know. I think it was just simple as that. Right. And how different are the languages, Ukrainian and Russian?

They're like, so there's like, Nietz and Nih. Like, so that's like, no. Like, one way is Russian style and then there's like, knee, which is like Ukrainian style. And it's just not the thing that you're used to. It's like the southern and you go to California

and like SoCal and it's like, oh my God. And then you go to like here. You're not going to hear it. So it's like dialect like that terminology. But it's still frustrated you as a kid. You're like, well. It did. I don't know why. I was very territorial and possessive. I guess I don't know.

I asked you this before. Alcohol affects you differently. It does. You get drunk quicker. Yeah, so we have the same poor, but we'll see. Yeah, I know. Like, it goes through your whole bloodstream. Yeah. But you have less blood. Exactly. So I do, it hits me much faster and I definitely get drunk way faster. So I definitely am like. Saving a lot of money. Save a lot of money. I'm a cheap date. Like it's nice. Literally, you could do half a beer and I think you're, yeah. Do I stop at half a beer? No, I don't, though. Don't know when to stop. You're supposed to stop a half a beer, but you go a full beer?

Yeah. Now we're going crazy. Oh, yeah. Especially stouts. Yo, a stout? Yeah. A good stout? Like, there's a, you ever do nitros?

Yes. Oh, yes. Great. I'm like an IPA guy. I know I look like it. But I do like an IPA. Really? 35 is like my cutoff or the number.

Like I can't. Really? Unless it's like the dogfish, like 90 minute IPA. I can do that one. No, those are great. The thing I was asking you before. You grew up in a house. You don't have any concept of family, really.

But then now you're growing up with a mother that you're stoked about, but no dad. Yeah. I'm sure you saw movies where there was a mom and a dad. I'm sure you have an awareness of like men's role. Really? No, and I actually hated Disney movies because they were all orphans

or they lost the parent somehow too. And so like it was so stupid. And you didn't like it for that reason? No. I didn't like that. It came up because I, I was aware of that. I was aware I was not wanted.

I was aware that it was just like, and it was weird, I don't know why, but no, I never really watched it in movies. And when I was younger, like, I was watching Scooby Doo. And I don't think they had fathers in that TV show. No, no, I mean, Fred was kind of a daddy, but he wasn't like a father. Like, he was a handsome guy, but like,

I don't think he literally had children. But yeah, so you, do you ever ask your mom? Like, oh, where's, is dad? Is there a dad? It never even came up. It actually really didn't, which is so weird to think about. All I wondered was, where's my mom? I want a mom.

Even when there were two family members, like a mother father that would come to the orphanage and look, it was always the mom. Like I never really, I didn't understand. I don't know why. And maybe it's because subconsciously, like, it were the men that were doing really bad things upstairs. So I just didn't really think about and see.

that aspect of a parent. And to be honest, to this day, that father-daughter relationship is just such a foreign concept to me. Like, I don't get it. And when they're like, oh, I'm a daddy's girl or oh, my dad and the whole walking down the aisle thing and just like, I don't understand it.

Interesting. Did it affect your ability to have relationships with men? Obviously, you're engaged now. Yeah. But that, obviously, I think your childhood more than anything, Did it affect your ability to connect with men or have romantic relationships with men? It did for like at a certain point, especially when it got serious. And then I'm like, oh, God, okay, this is real.

So then I would self-sabotage all that a little bit. Like the relationship. Yeah. Right. Especially if he's coming from a Western ideal, especially if you're in Kentucky. Like this is like a very like Southern Christian place that people might be growing up with like a very like Southern Christian mentality of relationships. Yeah. or can feel where like the guy's kind of like in charge.

Yeah. And if you never really had guys in charge in that way or didn't have. In a positive way. Yeah. In a positive way. Yeah. Then all of a sudden it's like, uh-oh, I don't like this. Yeah.

I don't like it. I don't know. And I don't know if it's because like my mom adopted me a single parent too. So it's not like she talked about a father. And it kind of got a little more like when I was dating like, do I tell my mom? No, I won't tell my mom. Will she get mad that I'm dating and she's not dating? And those kind of thoughts kind of started creeping in my mind when I was in middle school high school.

Oh, interesting. But I really like, it's just such a weird concept to me. Like, I just don't get it. Right. But I love it because I want Aaron, my fiance, to be a dad. He's like a weirdo where I'm like, oh, my God, I think he'd be so nice. And I want you to have a girl. So you can just like have to do all her hair and do all those things.

And he's just so, he's changing my mind. And I could see that father-daughter relationship. that I never could. Yeah, of course. It is sad to me that you think him being nice is weird. You know what I mean? Like that's kind of an indication of like what it must have been like growing up that so many men were so awful,

that meeting a guy that's like really nice that would be like a good dad, you're like, what a freak? You know, what's weird? Oh my God. What is wrong with this guy? He's going to be like an awesome dad. Yeah. Yeah, that's awful.

But he is going to be awesome dad. That's the cool part, you know? And I'm hopeful that, I mean, it's really crazy how love can, patch up so many wounds and that just seeing and being around positive influences and positive relationships that are loving yeah just can really heal traumas and I'm sure you've felt this with your and you don't have to speak the language of love either like love doesn't have a language exactly that's kind of like my mom and I relationship like instant love instant bond instant even without language but we didn't even without culture yeah different cultures different you know weird body

normal body, curly hair, straight boy coarse hair. Because like they kept it really short. That's why my hair, I'll never cut it. But I love doesn't, that's cool. Like it has a, when you have the right kind of love and that you're lucky enough to find it. Yeah, of course. And do you remember the cultural barriers as you're starting to immerse?

And it's not even cultural in terms of Ukrainian-American, but also orphanage to just a family structure. What were some of the things that were happening that you're like, oh, this is what normal is supposed to be. Because you don't have any relationship with what normal is when you're in the orphanage until you're out of it in a more normal situation. Like, what were some of those things that were popping up that you were like, well, it's more of what my mom was doing.

But she was like, what, the concept of food was so strange. You can just walk into a store and it's just there. Yeah. What? And you can get whatever you want. Whatever you want. And then you can't just like, I'll go and eat it. You have to pay for it.

I didn't understand that part of it. Yeah, of course. Was it overwhelming, like the choices, the autonomy? to be like, hey, what do you want to do? What sports do you want to play? So my fiance calls it FOBO, fear of better options because instead of fear of missing out, whatever, but because I'll like, if we order something,

if I see a menu, I'm terrified. I'm like, act as if it's my last meal. I don't know. Like, is this the right thing to get? Will I be happy with it? Like, but there's so many options. Or if I don't do this and just like, did I miss out? And it's like fear of better options of.

Of course. You want to. Because it's so many options. It's so wild to go from nothing to just a billion opportunities and options. And you have that choice and ability to have options. Yeah, of course. And then you start finding sports. And your mom encourages you a lot to try to exercise and be active and move your body and have control your body.

Yeah. And what were those first sports? I know Rowling was probably one of the early ones that you got into that you were like, oh, this is it. Did it snap immediately in your brain? You're like, this is what I need to be doing. not in that way, not in like, oh my gosh, like, I need to be doing this. It was, oh, my gosh, I belong here. This is, this is where, like, my home is.

So I felt it when my mom smelled down my bed. And then I felt it again when I took my leg off and pushed away from the dock. And it was just me in the boat. And I could literally the oars and controlling the oars, I felt it underneath the boat in the water. And it's that not being in control of things, but I felt like finally, like I was in the right place. because I went from Ukraine to Buffalo, New York, moved to Kentucky, had my leg amputated in Buffalo, moved to Kentucky, and was readjusting to new friends,

knew everything. Yeah, can you explain that briefly just why you had, why you had to have one of the legs amputated? So my mom knew I was gonna have my legs, the one amputated, the short one, my little baby leg that we had a whole little ceremony for before. What you nap with? Yeah, that nap way.

my pillow. And I could like pull my, because the curls were curled, I would just pull my hair behind my ear with. It's weird. Like I look at grudge. Look at the grudge. And that's who I was. But she knew that one was going to have to be amputated instantly.

And she waited a year before that one was amputated so I could learn the language. So she's not just taking me from Ukraine where we don't speak each other language and take my body parts. She thought that wasn't the right thing to do. Makes sense. And yeah, she's a pretty, she's a pretty good mom. Mom instincts are kicking in instantly. And it's because of the weight bearing bone.

That one was obvious. The right one they said they could keep, they'll save, it won't be an issue, it'll just hurt. But what was happening as I was getting old, I was able to walk and I taught myself how to walk because I was so malnourished. I was 35 pounds and I was almost turning eight and I was 34 inches tall.

So the body, weight wasn't affecting those bones. And that's why partially I was able to do that. As I grew within the first six inches, I grew eight, six months, I grew eight inches when I came to America. And my mom says it's food, but then also just affection. And that actually, she said, stimulates growth hormones as a child. So when you're hugged and when you cry and you're like, well, yeah, when you, when your mom or your dad hugs you if you're crying, it releases this thing's in your body and it like promotes that

in that early stages of a childhood. I've never heard that before. Yeah. I have no idea either. There are short people right now listen to this that are so angry. They're probably like, what? Mom, did you just not want me enough?

No. They're trying to fight their parents. They're trying to swing on them. I knew it. I knew it. Oh, that's crazy. But, and so I grew that fast. But because of that speed

of becoming healthy, I was getting actually weight. And it came to a point where I couldn't, the weight bearing bone was not a weight bearing bone. Right, because now you're getting to a normal healthy weight and your legs are not normal. It's just giving out. And that was a whole issue because they moved to Kentucky. And they said, and I tried rowing and I fell in love with it.

And it was my place. I finally felt like I belonged somewhere. And then they're told, we have to, whenever you're ready, we have to amputate your second leg. But it's your option, but you have to tell us between. four months or whatever the window is. So it's not really your option. And finally I was like, okay, I'm ready to amputate my leg, only if you amputate it below the knee because we're talking about the knee joints and every joint because I knew what I was missing already from that other one. And they said, okay, we can do that. But that's not what happened. And they, in the surgery,

they said, oh, this is not going to sustain because it's not an actual right. knee and I'll never forget the feeling when I woke up and like I go to bed I go to sleep thinking that my leg's going to be below the knee my life's amazing I'm going to have opportunities I can do everything and then I fall back because I'm top heavy and they're both above the knee and I that's where just I started hating life on top of that memories from Ukraine that I was suppressing so much were coming back and there was just and then on top of that the epidural was to the wrong side. So they numbed the wrong one and they were trying to tell my mom I had a low pain tolerance. I have to give the medication a chance to work. But no, it's because the one that was

amputated when I was nine was numb and the one that was just freshly amputated was not numb at all. They amputated the leg without an epidural so you could feel. Well, it was in there, but it just not shifted to the wrong side. They had sat in the wrong side. So were you feeling it completely when you woke up? Yes. It was not numbing. And so like when I tried, like this one, I could not move at all. all. Yeah, because it's numb. Yeah. This one, it was spasming because I'm highly allergic to codeine and stuff.

And all this medication, narcotics are coated with codeine. And I'm having these crazy reactions to it. And this whole leg is going everywhere. This is in America? Yeah, it happens. How do they? I got angry from that. That's the one thing that I'm not okay with.

I'm angry about that. How do they not put it in the right thing? Like, how, like they know which one is coming off. Yeah. But then they put the epidural in the wrong. They don't check, they don't put the- On the back, yeah, and then- They don't put the Sharpie on it?

Like, hey, this is the thing, like. Yeah. I mean, they do. It's just, there's a whole lot. Because it was a last-minute change and they didn't plan for it, they didn't leave enough skin to close. And so they put a cast,

but underneath they cast, partially the pain is because this incision was open because it didn't leave enough. This is like some civil warship. Like, so you could see the ligaments on the bone. What the hell? Yeah, and so like, I'm like, No, I, I know, I guess I do have a high pain tolerance.

Yeah. And in that situation, I know I have a high pain tolerance, but this shit's not right. There's something really wrong here. But yeah. And how old are you at this point? 14. You're 14? Mm-hmm.

I mean, that is so, I'm so angry. Yeah. Can we go fight them? Let's go fight this anesthesiologist. I'll back you up for real. Oh, my God. This is so crazy. It was, yeah.

And that was a hard transition. and the only thing I could think about. So it led to me being in the hospital, stuck to a bed forever to let the wound close from the inside out. And that's, thankfully, I got, I had rowing. I had that feeling. And that was the thing that eventually pulled you out. Yeah.

Love that, like, depressive bout. Yeah. And how long was that depression for it? Like a year that you're just like miserable? Oh, geez. No, I mean, that happened all the way till 23, 25, really. I was angry. And when I was racing, I didn't realize I was racing angry.

Oh, really? Just so mad at the world and it was just throwing everything into it. And that's what sport for me was. Right. When I didn't get out to be like, I didn't know, cross-country skiing existed. Right, of course. I've never even seen that sport at all. And.

And how do you get in the boat the first time? Your mom encourages you and is like, hey, let's go try to row or you knew someone that was doing it? So there's a person at this middle school, his job was to go around and to help people who with differences, unique differences, physical differences in their body to make sure they're getting around their school. And he ran the Louisville Adopted Rowing Club, Randy, and he said, hey, you should come out for this. I didn't like it because it was called Adapted Rowing. And I wanted to do volleyball with my friends. And once again, a label was being put on me, being a disabled girl. And then because I'm a disabled girl, I need to do an adaptive sport.

And I just didn't like it. Yeah. My mom was very persistent. She's like, just go and try it. Just go and try it. Long story short, finally, I'm like, fine, I'll go. And that's how I got into it. And I just by accident and finally just, but then it's the best thing.

Because if I wasn't missing these legs and didn't have all that time, the one leg. But I would have never gotten into sports. And I don't know where I would be if I didn't have that. outlet to let all that anger out. And at what point are you angry rowing and using this as an outlet, are you like, oh, I'm actually good at this? And I can actually start competing at this. And then, oh, I'm going to the Olympics for this.

Like, what were those levels? It was not me at all. Like, I didn't realize I was good at this until 2014. But 2000. That's when you won your first medal, right? First independent. Yeah, 2012 was the first one with my rowing partner, Rob Jones in London for rowing. It was a bronze medal.

And I always questioned, like, because it was the doubles. I'm like, well, what did I bring to this boat? Like, is it because he was so strong? And I got lucky with him being a Marine and he's a double above the amputee, and he lost his legs through an ID explosion in Afghanistan. So everything, shout out to him because everything I learned as a teammate, as a friend and as an athlete was watching him and how he moved. And he's the reason why I'm wearing these, showing these, because I had foam. I wanted to hide my legs. And I saw on him like, that's badass.

Holy shit. Like those are so cool. Carbon fiber. Yeah. And then I'm like, oh, fuck. Like, why is that look cool on you and not me? And then like, would I look like that? Because I had foam and nylons and trying to look cover everything that made.

Trying to make it look normal. Real. Yeah. It's not real. It's foam. Yeah. I can shape all the foam I want on the calf. It's not going to be real.

Right. And so, yeah, he did a lot. But do you find that there's a psychological difference in people that are born without legs or born missing limbs versus people that lose them later? Yeah. What do you think that is? Well, so like a lot of those people who are born without their legs, they're like, I would never change this. I would want to have no legs from. I would never want to ask for legs.

I'm like, what the fuck? Have you ever? No, I would. And if someone's like, you can take this pill and your legs will grow back, I'm going to do it. Because I remember what it feels like to walk on ground. and the hot, like the hot asphalt in the summer and just like the things on your feet and feeling a different sensation.

And it's just what is normal to you and how you identify and view yourself too. So if you're born that way, that's the only way you see yourself. Like you don't know anything different. I knew different. I had legs. And I saw at the, now it's so annoying

because it's like I'm sleeping and Aaron's like, oh, come over here, come at the end of it because he wants more bed. bed space and I'm so tiny a downside to four feet. He's like, come here, come here. Like I'm a dog or something. Yeah. And I'm like, well, no, I'm not going to put the foot of the bed, but somehow I'm four foot tall and I utilize a whole king size bed. This is a girl thing, 100%. I mean, that's a guy thing too. Stop it. No, women do this so much worse. They take up the bed. Men don't know where the middle of the bed is either. No, because women will be like, oh, can you hold me? And then

they'll be in the middle because I'm on my side and then you fall asleep and then you just happen to still be in the middle. Right? I mean, I don't know. I mean, if that's where you feel comfortable, it's very comfortable, it can't help that. It's in the middle. I'm going to try this with my wife. I'm going to try to make her sleep at the foot of the bed. I'll be like, hey, try that. See how you like it there. It's so much more space, right? I don't know. We fight about this a lot. I don't know if you want to tell you. But the weird thing is like, so I remember like seeing the feet, I do too with he's so nice. He's also a big guy though, right? He's a big guy. I don't care though. It doesn't matter. That's what he's like. And then when he rolls over and

takes all the comforts and I'm like struggling. It's like fighting and I'm like Jesus, Aaron. And he's like, I'm bigger and I'm just roll. I'm like, you don't have to, you're, no. See, he's lucky too because girls always have cold feet but you, not a problem. No, I just have cold nubs, cold kneecaps. Yeah.

So yeah. But like the weird things I was gonna say is like, it, Finn, I remember seeing in the bed and you're seeing legs, you fill out the bed and it's so weird to not. Do you get a phantom limb syndrome? Pain, phantom pain. Or phantom pain.

Itches. Like my ankle will itch and so I'll go down here and I'll itch the air and it goes away or like right behind the knee. How bizarre is that? So and then the pain that happens, it's like the sharp spasms you can't control it. And it's really bad at the first part of the amputation and then it gets more manageable. You learn that pain so you know what to expect. But it's because your brain is trying to like straighten the leg or moving it. And so it doesn't know those brain pathways.

and their logical pathways, your legs gone. It just thinks it's still there, and that's what a lot of it is. Right. Especially, I mean, not so much if you're born without legs. You don't have it because it's just like, you're lucky. You don't have, I don't know.

Right. So do you... A paper cut thing, you know? Yeah, of course. Do you think you still row angry? Like, it's been obviously more years than from when you started and from when a lot of the traumas first began. But do you find yourself like you're in a Paralympics,

and you're still rowing anger, your training. Do you still find that fire is the same? It is. So I'm not rowing anymore because I injured my back, but I still, I thought, I did this all the way up until 2018 games in Pyongchang. And I thought anger was my superpower. Like, that's what was making me strong. And I felt it.

I could feel it all build up from everything. And my, it's interesting you were saying mindfulness, this because I didn't believe in any of it and you're getting into it because I started doing that recently more actually legit giving it and trying doing it because for the sport of biathlon is skiing and shooting we work with a sports psychologist for the shooting aspect of things and he had me hold your hands out and think of something that makes you angry and that thing that you're saying is your superpower as an athlete that makes you strong and everything else and he's pushing down on it he's like resist my me pushing down and I do and I'm like resist my me pushing down and I do and I'm like

resisting it instantly, but then it starts to kind of shake and wobble a little bit. And then he said, think of something that makes you happy and you love and makes you smile. So I thought about my mom and just like that first day I saw her. And at first I'm like, he pushes and he pushes me down. I'm like, see, his name's Artourke. He's Polish and he had this really cool accent. So whatever he said, I was like, yeah, you're right. But this time I'm like, I'm like, I'm right and I'm proving you wrong until he's like, no, just keep thinking about it. And I resisted. And I was able to resist. a lot longer. So it was more sustainable. And I've always been that kind of a person that like, I need to feel it to understand it. I can't really, because that's how he grew up. I didn't

get to speak my words. I had to feel these things, whether it was good or bad. And when that hit, that's when I realized that might be my super power for the sprints, but it's not if I want a longevity in this sport or as an athlete. And to sustain it, it's that. I need to learn how to not let go of those. Yeah, of course. That's interesting. Literally using the power of love to fuel you versus anger and violence. I've heard this with actors that there was an actor, I forget who, it might have been like Denzel or something.

And they were asking, you know, if you're doing a really emotional scene and you have to cry, do you think of something really sad? Like, what is the sad thing that you think about? And he goes, I actually don't think about sad things. I think about the times where I felt the most loved. I think about the times where I felt the most embraced and I felt the warmest. I felt the happiest. Those are the things that make it easier for actors to cry. And it's also a much more sustainable and healthy way to channel those things. If every day you have to go act and you're on stage and you're reliving torments and traumas, they might get you to the middle

quicker, but in order to go long, it's going to burn you out. Yeah. And so he's like finding love and letting the love fuel the emotions, even crying and things like that is actually a way more sustainable way. And it's exactly what you said. So I didn't even thought about that, but it's a complete sense in that aspect. And I didn't even thought about like the negative aspect, like channeling that, that bad stuff for them too. Yeah, of course. I mean, it's all that release of cortisol, all the release of stress. I mean, it's just going to, it's, it's, you know, but I love that feeling. Yeah, I know, right? Because it makes you feel good in the immediate. Yeah. And I think it's because like, I don't know. I don't, well, and this is interesting because like the background that I had,

all those feelings that I bottled up were like this little like hot fire that I'm just like it was where I, that was me. And I, I didn't like the way my body felt because it was so foreign until I think about my mom and now Aaron, but like just, I was so uncomfortable and afraid of that love and that warmth and everything else because I had so much to be angry about. So it was so easy to be angry about my prosthetics. It was so easy to be angry about the memories that were coming back. it was hard and scary was letting that love in

and actually embracing it to be sustainable. And the weird thing, and I say this happened in 2018, because in 2018, and that's my fourth games, and I have never won a gold medal at that point. And I'm favored to go into those games to win a lot of gold medals for the first time. But the difference also was,

I believed in myself, like, I'm capable of being a gold medalist. Like, I'm not just going to be that second or third best athlete anymore. Like, I believed it in me. And that is a huge, huge missing link for an athlete. Like, you have to believe it in you. It doesn't matter what other people think. Yeah. And I finally realized it.

And then I fall on ice and break my elbow a few weeks before we're about to leave for the games. And I mean, Mark, like, I just had my first sponsor. because in 2014, I was living out of my car. I didn't have the money. I didn't have any sponsors. I didn't pay attention in math. Even though in Ukraine, I did really good math. I didn't pay attention in American school.

That I missed how much I needed. So right before we left for the 2014 games, I was sleeping out of my car, which was great. I lost weight. I was able to climb faster. It worked out. That's where I got my first. It's probably easier for you sleep in a car.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, I had a TV. It didn't have like the insulation. but it had the TV in it, like a DVD thing. That's nice. And so like that, then I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to lose all of that all over again.

I'm going to go back to that moment. But then our tour, sports psychologist, brought and had me do this activity. Because also, he knew I was an angry athlete. Because when I shot, I was not a good shooter. I was like, shit, fuck, wow. And I was just like cuss every time. And you can't do that.

Like I was just an aggressive. My spirit animal, Tasmanian, devil on a team because I'm not that dainty butterfly. Yeah. Until he told me that. And then I finally started to like let that love in and let feel accepted. And there's one thing to know you have it, but there's a whole other thing to actually accept it within yourself and truly let it in.

And so what was that process like? What was that discovery going from like, oh, I am good and I'm kind of happy to be here and oh, this is so fun to being like, nah, I'm the best of this shit. to win golds like I deserve it like was there a moment was it a series of tools and exercises that got you there because I feel that sometimes where I'm like I want to I sometimes want to get past I've been in a lot of situations where I'm just happy to be there and now I'm getting to situations where I'm like no I deserve to be here I want to I want to be the best of the thing that I'm doing and I feel like I'm at that moment where I'm kind of making that transition so I'm curious for you

like what were the things that led to that? So see, this is, because I still don't feel it. I don't know. Like, I don't know if it's because I'm afraid if I accept it. I'm afraid I might then like the other end of like, well, I have to live up to it then. And people expect it. And that's really not actually healthy either, to be honest.

But 2014's where I learned, I was saying, like, about my wrong partner, Rob Jones, because we were together in London, We're doing that together, and I always questioned, what did I do to contribute? Like, did I do anything? And so when I was in 2014, and I got the first my medal at my own, a start line by myself, whatever I put into it, whatever comes out is going to be like whatever I do. And I got my own, I got a silver medal, and I was a few seconds off from gold.

And that's the moment I realized, like, I do belong here. And it was kind of baby steps, kind of like where you're like, you're like, okay, no, I do deserve to be the best and to like push and strive and I deserve it and I can do it too and um from that happened when I the doctors when I broke my elbow they said no you're not you're not going to go to the games your games are over so I already was going into those like believing I belong in this world stage and now I was going to these games like I belong and I deserve to have a gold metal I know I'm capable of doing it and And that happens.

And then they're saying you can't do it. And it was a combination of everything, just always proving society, always proving everything, what I can and can't do. And then I'm like, well, shit, I'm already missing my legs. How worse can it get? I just get a bionic elbow. Cool. Like, I put all these hours in years.

And this is the first time I believe I can do it. I want to see what I can do with this right now. And that's exactly what happened. And then I ended up getting second and third, re-injuring my elbow. And it was a sprint, which was my favorite race. And if you're passionate about it, you will find a way to do it and do it well and give 100% of yourself. And that's exactly what I was like, I don't care. I'm willing to sacrifice.

And they said, if you do this, you might injure yourself in this elbow. And you might not be able to race in the same way again. Or think about quality of life outside because I use my arm so much. I'm like, I don't care. I believe in myself and I want to see what I'm capable of doing, finishing what I started. I started this, I want to see where I'm going to get to. And that power of belief, everyone else didn't. But I did.

And that was that missing link for me for so many years. And we found a way that this crazy tape job with this brace, my next race after re-injuring it, as how I win my gold medal. And I think is that persistence. Like, you know, you have to, you have to believe it in yourself. Because you, and you have to really genuinely, like, look in the mirror and, like, Mark, you are going to be there. You are going to get this and see yourself in it. It might not be that perfect, like, from, like, it might not, it might take 10 years.

It might take 30 years. But I wanted to finish what I started. And my, for me, it was putting my, that gold medal, my first gold medal around my mom's neck and I pictured that moment and that's what finally happened it didn't happen my first games I didn't make my first games I didn't win my first gold medal until my fourth Paralympic games and that's the part of it it's like your timeline it's your timeline and so easy in this life to compare yourself and I still do that now but then you're like you know what this is my timeline it's going to come I believe it I'm putting the work in It's not happening now because there's some more I need to learn.

There's something else I need to gain to be able before I get there that's needed, that missing puzzle piece. And that's how I thought about it. I mean, that's wild. That is so cool. What was that feeling like once you get the gold medal and you do put it around your mom? Is it anything you felt before? No.

Like, I was shaking. I was shaking in my legs. My legs inside my legs were shaking. I just like, don't be that idiot to fall down on. this moment. And, you know, the way I finally got to, I envisioned this perfect, like, bright, like lights everywhere and just like this anthem playing and fantasized this moment. None of that happened. It was quite the opposite. But, you know, it's quite fitting to our story, though, too, because the way we met started in a very dark, stark area of the worlds and life in a dark

groom and that's what happened. I got to put that metal, that gold metal around my mom's neck for the first time. As the lights in the award show were getting shut down, everyone was leaving. It was just simple. It was perfect. It was just our moment. It didn't have to be this like captured in this beautiful bright lights and just this, oh, eureka moment. It was perfect for us. Isn't that funny? That the simplicity and the subtlety is always the thing that means the most. Yeah. You know, like it's like you, we create these grand ideas in our head where we're like, oh, this is what it's going to be. Yeah.

And then actually it's the more stripped down version. It's the more like subtle nuanced human version that's like, oh, this is actually better. Yeah. And then it's like later on, month from now, a year from now, you're going to, it's going to mean that much more. And you just like those little things just mean even more than it did that month ago, two months ago. Yeah. Make that's what makes that, leaves that imprint on you and that molds you. Can I ask you another question about the Paralympics?

Yeah. How do they equalize sports? Well, that we need a whole. Because that's interesting to me. Like if you are someone with a below the knee amputation, you would qualify for the Paralympics. But you might be in a swimming competition against someone that has no legs. To me, that seems like an obvious advantage, disadvantage.

So what do they do in some of those sports, and the sports that you're in specifically, that equalize those anatomical issues? So you mean like in a swimming event, like, like when you see like someone below the leg and some below the knee and someone above the knee kind of thing? Right, exactly. Like it can't be perfectly even and fair

unless someone has the same exact disability. Yeah. And so... And that's a cool, interesting thing. I think a lot of you don't realize within the disability, me and you can have the same spinal cord injury in the same exact way, injured the same level, we're going to have two different abilities and what we can do from that.

So it is like it's never going to be perfect. And that's what it is. But the way they do it in the Paralympics, they call it the classification system. So they have a whole lot of research and data and it's being reused every time each year. But so for skiing for me, they base everything on core. So I'm considered a 12 because I take my legs off. It's dead weight. I don't want to carry these bad boys around and I use by have all of my core. So I'm a 12, which means when I cross the finish line, that is my time. Nothing's taken off. But if you have a spinal cord injury a little bit lower or you don't have a little back extension, whatever it is, there's an 11-5 until you get 4% off your time. My fiance is actually an 11-5. So he's also a Paralympic athlete, Aaron. And he was shot when he was 13

in a hunting accident. And a guy, a hunter just heard him and thought he was going to, shooting a deer, and he didn't, he shot him. So he is an 11-5 because he's an incomplete. So he can move his leg, but he can't walk and wait bear on his leg. And then there's people who, then so he can, because he can move that one leg, he's 11-5, if someone can't move both of their legs and has less of their core, they're an 11, and it goes on to 10.

There's five classes in the sport of skiing. And it's basically, so when they cross the finish line, when I say five, 5%, 4%, 13%, that's how much time is taken off of your finish time. Because the idea is when you cross the finish line, the times should be competitive. That makes sense. So they adjust it based off of your core ability. For that sport. And then swimming is interesting.

So what people don't realize when I do my sport in cross-country, they don't think about hands. So in order for me to ski, I have to actually tape my hands on. And when I'm shooting, I can't feel the trigger because of these little T-Rex claws. So I am disadvantaged in that, but they don't consider anything about the upper body extremities. But if you're a swimmer, the way you hold your hands, it will make a big difference with the water flow and the resistance. So they literally look at everything and will give you a point system. And based on the point system of that classification, you get put in this type of class. So in skiing, you're competing.

All the girls sit skiers are competing for one medal. they do it factoring. Swimming and track and field, they will do each individual class. So like if I was a 12, all the 12s would be competing against each other for a medal. So they have so many more opportunities for that, if that makes sense. And that's how the Paralympics does the classification. And in swimming, it's interesting because you will see someone that, okay, why is this person with no leg in an arm competing against someone with two legs or whatever?

And you're like, what? No one knows, to be honest. There's always going to be like, what the hell is that? It is. And it's not perfect. You can't make it perfectly even. And people will benefit and people will get the short end of the stick. It's like in life.

Yeah. Where you're born on the silk sheets or you're born on the cement floor. Yeah, of course. But that's where just educating people too like that and then just different, and trying to create, like, you're doing a better job, having athlete's voices being heard. What's hard is when you're an athlete and you're trying to use your voice, but you're a competitive athlete, they will not listen to it if it benefits you and they think that because you're winning and you're at the top.

So I can't wait until I retire. Because then you can start changing. Because I want to change it for the next generation. Of course. And it can't directly benefit you. And I get why they would think that. And it makes sense. And it's hard for people to see that.

But there is a lot of data, a lot of research that they do. But it's not going to get better unless there's people that it's affecting or speaking out and changing. You have to speak out and you have to not be afraid to speak out and change it. And you have to have people, society, and you're just like tuning in, watching the Paralympics. I'm like, wait a minute. Or like, wow, that is so cool. And realizing the sweat, equity of Paralympic athletes, the way they're doing their sport is just, the same as Michael Jordan, as Usain Bolt, Serena Williams, all these people. Like, it's the same,

if not harder, because I have to work three times as hard to go and step my damn weight up over here, excuse my French. And like, okay, now I'm ready. I'm going to start doing my workout. But, yeah, and so for people just to tune in and the visibility and people support it and see it, then they'll start creating more of like, okay, well, people are curious, asking questions. Let's see, yeah. Okay, two last things I want to ask. Do you ever feel a, your experiences and your childhood specifically have made you jaded to some people's complaints in America, like coming to the States and hearing some people maybe complaining about, you know, situations that they're in.

Do you ever feel like a little calloused and you're like, look, I know your thing is hard, but you don't even understand how hard it can be for other people? Does that ever creep in your mind or are you pretty, are you pretty balanced? No, I feel like I'm pretty balanced because, like, we don't know each other's shoes. I don't know your path, the shoes you walked. There could be things invisible that I can't see that I don't know. My things are just very visible and obvious, but you don't know the scar tissue that I have from the inside

that people don't like understand. That's cool. So I think about that way, but if you're like, gosh, my God, my foot is hurting. It's getting stiff in this airport. And I'm like, it's yours is stiff. At least you can move it two degrees or whatever it is. That is interesting.

Have you ever read Man Search for Meaning by Dr. Frankl? Yes. One of my favorite books ever. And the part that always sticks out to me is when he references suffering as a gas. And this idea that as people are truly suffering, that pain just fills the space and fills the void of your threshold of suffering. Yeah. And, you know, whether you're in an orphanage in Ukraine or in a war zone somewhere else or suffering from depression or whatever the thing is happening, that pain just fills the space. Even though they might not be objectively the same pain to the individual subjectively.

it just is all the space for pain that you can feel. Yeah. And I wonder, do you identify with that type of thinking? Do you feel like that's true? Absolutely. I think it's 100% true. And, you know, that actually, I read that book. I got diagnosed and I had a tumor that had to be removed 100 days out from Tokyo

summer games. And the therapist had me read that book. And it changed my whole entire way of how I view that. And that's a lot of like, there's so much power in that. Yeah, of course. And I agree. And the last thing I was curious about,

and we touched on this before, but I just want to know, is it frustrating when people infantilize you? Do you find that people are overly cautious with you? That like, if you're walking through the airport, someone would be like, let me get your bag. Is it ever nice? Is it ever acceptable?

Or are you always sort of like, leave me alone? Like, what is your general feeling? No, someone wants to help, help. But don't do it because you're like, think I'm helpless because I don't have my legs. Right. They don't realize you're in.

an Olympian, like, Paralympian gold medalists. That's not got nothing to do with it. I just so happen to do sports and compete at them. You just so happen to be a badass, one of the greatest winter Olympians all time. It just so happens to have an incredible team around me that helps me be there. Of course, but people see you and they're like,

they must feel like, oh, I did, you poor thing. And you're just like. It's funny, it's both. So there's like both like, oh my God, you poor thing. Or oh my God, that's so inspiring. Like you're going grocery shopping and you're getting gas. And no, my car's about to die. I need to go to my coffee shop, wherever I'm going.

I'm going to get a drink. I deserve a drink. I need gas, we only gas, so we need toilet paper. That's not what's the most inspiring thing. And then there's some people who like have the opposite, just like don't, just watch and struggle. I'm like, okay, cool, totally. And then I will be that. Sometimes I'm like, I was passive aggressive.

And Aaron's like, no, you were just aggressive, aggressive, Oaxana. Because sometimes like, you just realize like, it's okay to ask for help, but do it in like a normal way. You don't have to be like overly like just because of my legs and just, oh, oh, yeah, yeah. And just like, all of a sudden, don't know how to act. Like if you drop something and someone walks by and they're like, oh, here, dude, whatever, I don't know. Like, if you looked at someone with glasses or your curly hair, my straight hair, I don't look at you different because I'm like, oh my God, Mark, you have curly hair. Shit, I do. And then you just look, but don't want to look.

It's just a different thing. It's a different thing. My accessory is just visible. I want you to see it. I want you to ask questions. It's totally okay. Especially it's okay for kids. Don't be that mom that's like, shut up.

Don't say that. When the little kid's like, Mommy, look. their legs. Kids are curious. And they're just genuine. It's okay to be curious. Okay to be curious. And you know that they're not trying to insult you. Yeah, that kid's going to make my legs one day. I know it. If you let them be curious and like understand like, hey, look at, isn't that so cool how many different ways we get around and look different? Like it's the same thing. It's the same thing as the skin color as our hair texture, as our anything and whiskey, bourbon, vodka, coffee, anything it's just needs to be seen more because the more you see it you'll

understand it when you understand that you won't pop your eyeballs trying to like be like what the hell of course is it ever annoying going into buildings and that they don't have an elevator or they won't have like a ramp and you're just like really sometimes especially in the US yeah because you're like I understand it in Europe because it's like older cities and they can't but but they just build something and you can't get around it and you're like Yeah, I guess it depends what mood I'm in, how much coffee I had. Because I'm like, okay, cool, I'm going to get oblique work out here.

And it's like, it's fine. Like, I'm just going to do it differently. But it's when people, too, like, get all weird about it. Like, oh, oh, there's an elevator. Is that okay? And it's like, yeah, you know, it's okay. I'll let you know if it's not okay. But then sometimes if it's a new building,

please think about the different types of abilities that you will be coming to that business or will be here because there's, we all come in different shapes and sizes. There's not just one mold. I mean, Aksana, this is awesome. Really, thank you so much for coming to chat. I can believe I'm here. This is so cool.

I really appreciate it. And I know, obviously, you have your book out now, which I'm going to read. I haven't read it yet. And I'm very excited. It's pretty boring. Stop it. No, it's not boring.

Because I know that there's a lot of things in the book that are a lot deeper than even what we're able to get into today. So I really recommend a lot of people go check it out. What's the name of the book? The hard part. The hard parts. And it's out now. And you can get it Amazon everywhere. Yep. And you can find out everything else. Everything else people want to know about you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here. genuinely. This is like so cool. I'm so glad we got to meet. No, I'm not like the cool people you talk to normally. So like this is so wild. This is the coolest. This is so awesome. This is so awesome. This is so much. This is so wild. This is so awesome. This is so awesome. I'll see you then. Thank you.