Camp Gagnon - How Julian Dorey SURVIVED a CIA Torture Program

Episode Date: November 11, 2025

Julian Dorey joins us today to talk about surviving a torture program, his waterboarding experience, share his opinions on what can be considered torture, reflecting on SERE school and other interesting topics...WELCOME TO CAMP!🏕️Shoutout to our sponsors: Morgan & Morgan and BlueChew👕🧢 GET YOUR CAMP DRIP HERE: http://camp-rd.com🎟️ 🎫 Comedy Tour Tickets Here: https://markgagnonlive.com🎩👽 Daily Dose Of History Here: https://www.dailytodayinhistory.comTimestamps0:00 – Intro1:47 – Shoutout to Tommy G7:06 – Planning The CIA Torture Documentary19:29 – Scouting Torture Site + Getting Kidnapped33:24 – Tortured By Bustamante53:52 – Room Lighting + Tommy’s Plan to Escape1:01:43 – Tommy G Being Tortured1:13:35 – Julian Being Tortured1:30:45 – Julian’s Waterboarding Experience1:43:42 – Finding The Breaking Point1:49:28 – SERE Stress Position1:55:38 – Reflecting on SERE School1:57:42 – Should CIA Torture People?2:04:33 – Hanging Out After Torture2:08:04 – Payback on Bustamante#podcast #foryou #crime

Gentlemen, you're going to be in pain today. That pain is entirely up to you. It can stop at any time. All you have to do is answer the questions we give you. And we'll let you go. This is Julian Dory. He's a podcaster, a personal friend of mine, and one of the only people, maybe ever,

who voluntarily got waterboarded and interrogated by the CIA. And today he's breaking down what he learned about enhanced interrogation, what the CIA actually does, the science behind breaking someone's, mind and why he agreed to do it. Like I got a small taste. What they do is significantly worse than that. At least some of those things on that enhanced interrogation list, they definitely went beyond. Otherwise, you don't destroy those tapes. We also get into the ethics. Does waterboarding count this torture, the psychological tricks that interrogators will use, and what it's like having

former CIA guys throw ice water on your face while you're blindfolded. And immediately, the water's filling up the mast. I know you heard some of like the sounds right there. I'm like, and then like Trevor's pulling me back when it ends. And I'm going to like this and then bringing me back for him. Like breathing like down, but I can't really get air. It's like just enough. This one is a fascinating episode. Julian is a phenomenal storyteller and just a great guy. And what he's gone through with his friend Tommy G is truly crazy. Our friend Andrew Bustamante from the CIA literally interrogated him for a few hours. and he explains every last detail.

So, if you are a fan of CIA, enhanced interrogation, and crazy things to do with your friends, this is the episode for you. So sit back, relax, and welcome to camp. Julian Dory, what's up, brother? Markey Gags, it's good to see you again, my friend. Thank you for joining me. I really appreciate it.

Thank you for coming all the way from Jersey. It's Jersey, but... No, that's how you guys say. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's not a long train commute, if you will. Well, that's how Deep says, this old Italian. You know what I mean? I mean, Dief lives in Brooklyn now, so, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This was like a fucking walk for him. Yeah. Wait, oh, you're in Brooklyn now. Yeah. Oh, hell yeah, dude. Right. Dude, you're stealing from Brooklyn.

Well, technically, he was in Jersey when he started working with me and then went back. Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah. This is a... Not Tommy G. Right. Got it.

I like that. Yeah, we're still very guilty about that over here at Camp Productions. Yeah, that was still the funniest fucking intro I've ever seen in my wife. I'm like, because I was. I was looking through the feed at like where they got that picture and I used to post screenshots from the episode when I would post the actual episode. And I did this every episode up until last September when we filmed for the six months after that episode came out.

And you had to scroll down literally six months and scroll over one to find that shot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And every single post had pictures of, like multiple pictures of me in it too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, that was incredible effort to get it wrong. Yeah, it's remarkable. For anyone that doesn't know, last time Julian came on this wonderful program, We did feature a video of him, and we were like, this is Julian Dory, and then we showed a picture of Tommy G instead.

It was the wrong thing. And that's just because Creastos is racist, and he thinks all white people look the same. You calling me a white guy? I don't want to throw anyone under the bus. I did not do that intro. Oh, wow. But I did not catch it. See?

There you go. I am white, so it doesn't exist. It always goes back around. But speaking of you and Tommy G, I just watched the video of you getting interrogated. Oh, you did? That was kind of scary. for a bunch of different reasons. Why was it scary?

First off, it was scary because our dear friend Andrew Bustamante was doing it. Yeah. And I know Andrew. You know Andrew. He's the sweetest guy ever. He comes in. He's asking about my family.

He's talking about my kids. We're talking about, you know, geopolitics. It's just always a wonderful cerebral conversation with a good pal. And then I saw him. I would leave pods with him. I'm like, dude, this guy, really? Like, what was he doing at the CIA?

He was probably behind a computer, you know, looking at numbers or something. There's no way. He started there. But I was like, there's no way this guy has it in him to be just a dog, you know? And then I saw the video. You're getting punched in the stomach.

There's a bag on your head. You're getting the people's elbow off a turnbuckle. I was like, whoa, what the hell? Andy's got that, dude. He was like, Roman Raines. He was like, it was insane. Well, it was, here's the thing. Like, Tommy, who, you know, one of my very close friends and literally, I think,

one of the best documentary filmmakers in the world, he has a job to do with every video he puts out once a week where he has to tell a story and get it down into 25 to 40 minutes, right? And he has to give the context, give the intro, to provide the actual background information, do interviews on the ground, you know, cut to different things. But all the stories that he does up until this point, up until this point, were basically him capturing things that already were happening on the ground. This was a simulated piece to where he wanted to put himself through something. Capture that, react to it and interview the people involved who have also done this stuff in real life to get an idea about the question of whether or not the United States should

have the capacity to torture for information. So it was a wildly new concept for him to be trying, but to get what we did with all the other things you have to fit into 40 minutes down into a 40-minute documentary is crazy and so when we were actually doing it and i'll get to like what the whole context was of us even doing it but when we were doing it there were a few i was very locked in because it's it gets real in there we'll talk about that but like artistically i was thinking about how this would go and we were probably an hour into and i was like fuck this really needs to be like a three hour immersive like yeah documentary kind of thing because people aren't going to understand like all the little things like we had five different cameramen in there they were

unbelievable they were everywhere they had every angle covered can we can we pull up the video actually creos i think that'd be helpful for context they had every angle covered in fucking 4k and i i have all the raw footage and it's just like blew me away how well they captured this live because there's no fucking takes yeah we just do it a whole thing there's there's no like cut cut all right i need more yeah there's none of that if i was directing that's what i would do i'm sure you would get fucking elbowed in the dick and I'd be like I've guys can we actually

Yeah yeah the lighting boom mic fell into the frame So we're gonna redo that one I mean it's how does this come up So first off just Tommy G's an amazing Documentarian of Filmmaker He's like makes some of the sickest content ever Like everything from Chris just we're gonna get your YouTube premium

Okay I want you to know that I keep telling deep the same thing Now that Julian's here and we're actually making fucking cash okay now that he's brought his mug on this beautiful screen we're gonna get views baby We're gonna chip in we're gonna get you 1099 a month to get YouTube premium. It's the best investment of all time, people.

I'm not going to lie. Like when I did it five, six years ago, I was like, where has this been all my life? Oh, unlimited amazing content from her friend Tommy G for $10 a month? So how does this come up? Does he call you? Go, hey, dude, I have this idea. Here's what happened.

So Tommy has been instrumental. Like, we hit it off right away when we became friends. And then he and I have both been, like, helping each other out wherever we can. And he's been instrumental in getting me some people on the show. and then I've helped him put together documentaries with cast the characters. So when Trump almost got whacked in July 2024, he immediately called me up.

He's like, I want to do a documentary on site. So I'm like, okay, cool. And he goes, I need guys. So I said, all right. This is also not what he sounds like. Yeah, I do an exaggerated version. I do an exaggerated version. Me me by the docs at 9 p.m.

They're like, all right, can we just zoom? No, but he like does like the, I do it exaggerated, but he does like the swallow. like kind of, hello folks, I'm Tommy G. Right? And it's like this awes shucks kind of guy. He's like, today I'm going to get shot in the hoods of St. Louis. This isn't real, but it is.

Yeah, he's like street Mr. Beast. You know what I mean? Bro, dude. And it was, oh, quick side context. At one point, once we wrapped the whole day, we had to do the disclaimer video where he sits down in a chair just in his hoodie and says, do not attempt any of this stuff at home. So this is a layup, right? And we have to do this.

So the video is not like censored off of YouTube. And so we're like, all right, Andy, you just talk off camera to him and, like, ask him directly so that he can answer it. So Andy goes, Tommy, would you recommend

that anyone does this at home? And he goes, I don't, anyone is your strong. And we're like, what the hell? Dude, how? How?

I said, no. Why are you waffling on that one? It took him three takes to do it. And, like, on the third take, I was like, cut. Just say, don't fucking do it. Yeah, he doesn't work in absolutes. He's like, okay, okay.

But he's so about it. So he's like, I want to get this crew together to, film this Trump documentary on like the Butler thing. And so he said, I want a CIA guy. I want a secret service guy and I want a sniper. And I'm like, I don't, I mean, Evie Pomporese, I don't think would do it. She's the only secret service person I think I've ever known. And then I'm like, Andy will definitely do it. And my guy, Danny Hall, who's, you know, Green Beret, Silver Star Awardy,

like, Savage. I'm like, he'll do it. So I call up Andy. He's like, I'm in, call up Danny. He's in. They made, Tommy gets it together. He puts them out there that weekend. This is like, I think they filmed it late July, 24. Like it was right after. Oh, wow. And so he does it. And a day after they leave, he calls me saying, oh, it went great, whatever.

It's coming out next week. Da, da, da, da. You know, he's like, I was talking with Andy, though, and we were talking about content ideas. And he had this idea about putting me through Sears School to comment. on whether or not these things should be used in the context of like American prisoners of war or things like that. You're saying Searschool? Yeah, it's survival, escape, resistance and something. It's the equivalent of like, you know, if you were captured by an enemy, here's how they might torture you.

So he's saying, let's put you through it because there's this whole argument that the United States has done this to quote unquote terrorist in the past. So like should we do it or not? And you could make a documentary where you film it. And Tommy's like, it's a great idea. And I'm like, yeah, it's a great idea. you should do it. He goes, yeah, um, and he's like a little bit excited about this stuff. Yeah. And I was like, oh? And he goes, yeah, I'm, I'm a little nervous about giving him the keys to the kingdom. So he's like, if I did this, would you come do it with me? And I'm just like walking through Hoboken at night while I'm on this call.

I'm like, yeah, why not? Like, don't think anything about it. So a few months goes by, I don't hear nothing. And then in the winter, he's like, all right, we're going to do it. I'm like, okay. So we're figuring out like all spring, trying to get the schedules lined up. And we figure out we're going to do it in June, like a month or two before, we figure out we're going to do it in June. And Andy's going to bring Trevor Fortner, who is an ex-Navy dive team specialist who did like a lot of special operations missions, has trained people in this before. He's been personally waterboarded, like for training exercises and stuff like that. And, you know, we'll film it out in Milwaukee where Tommy lives. so I'm like okay bet

don't really think about it again because like I you know in my head I had this idea of just like oh it's serious school I'm like how bad could this get yeah you're a manager dude you need someone you need just like a neurotic Jewish guy to be like yeah I just I don't know if this is this is the best where were you

where this fuck was deep yeah I didn't want to schlep all the way over there but just maybe we should look into something different you need someone You need a motherly energy to be like maybe not this one, right? That's where you were supposed to be, dude. Come on. I live day to day.

You know, like it's about today. I'm not thinking about tomorrow. Yeah. So then it turns to, I think we were filming it on like June 12th. So it's like June 10th and I'm like, oh, I'm flying in Milwaukee tomorrow. And that was that. So I also, this is what sucked, bro. About a week before, five, six days before, my friend Brian walks up to me

the gym, like in the morning, dabs me up, like, you know, comes in and does like the bear hug kind of thing. I'm like, where you been? I've seen me in a couple weeks. He's like, oh, bro, I've had like mono or, like he said some shit. He's like, I've had a virus. My whole body was shut down and everything. Nice. And I'm like, the fuck that you just dabbed me up. You guys are made makeup? He's like, yeah, by the way. You're like, dude, can you tell me before we kiss? Like, what the hell? I'm like, what the fuck? So Saturday, I filmed two podcasts. That was like Saturday, June 9th, I think. And it was Eric Zooliger and then Kat Schultz was in town. And so I'm getting sick throughout the day to the point I'm like, you know, like choked.

And I'm like, oh, this is not good. I wake up Sunday sick as a dog. And I'm like, I'm going to fucking kill Brian. I got to fly to my walking tomorrow. I got to get fucking Sears school on Tuesday. This is not good. So Monday I like get up. I'm not feeling good.

I take like a bunch of Tylenol, which now, you know. Yeah, apparently. That explains it. That's why you know all the numbers you're up. I guess. Too much Tyler at all. You turn to rain man. The seed of men of phenom hole or whatever the fuck it's called. But anyway, so I get on, I get on the flight and I'm just like banged up, but I'm a little better than I was Sunday. So I get the Mucinex. Keegan, Tommy's guy, one of his guys, great dude on his team,

hits me up. He's like, yo, is there anything you need? I'll get it before I pick you up. I was like, normally I'd say, fuck no, but like, yeah, here's Mucinex, fucking sinus fluid, like all this shit. He picks all of it up. So I fly in to Milwaukee like 8 o'clock at night. I've never, I had been to Vegas once last summer. Other than that, I've never been. Those aren't the same. They're not even really close.

Just listen to me. How are you going to put that in there? James dying. Yeah, I flew to the Milwaukee. I went to Chipola actually one time, which was, there's a Mexican guy that was similar, I guess. It was like, do you what? No, so the point being, like, I had really never been west of Pennsylvania except that time. Really?

You're in California? No, I've been all up and down to East Coast. I've been throughout Europe, but I just never went west. I never went west of where I went to college. You're a real Jersey Mick, you know that? You're a real patty. He's like, yeah, don't leave the East Coast, okay? I get away from a slice of pizza.

I can't risk it, you know? Get over there. That would be the Guinea side of me, but that's neither here nor there. Anyway. So I'm like, all right, I fly into Milwaukee. I thought fucking two people lived here. Like Milwaukee, like who the fuck lives in Milwaukee? No, that's a real city.

It's a, no, no, that's what I mean. Like, there were buildings and shit. They were, like, 15 stories. You thought you were going to Paloosa? Yeah. Yeah, I thought it was like one of those empty Chinese cities. They just built up and said, look at this. And Kagan's like, no, there's people that live here.

Yeah, there's a whole basketball team. This was the best part. He fucking, he's picking me up. And Kegan's like an unintentionally funny guy. But when you're flying to Milwaukee at 8 o'clock at night, this didn't help the reputation. There's no one at the airport. Yeah, yeah. It's fucking empty.

Which is great. I mean, it makes Atlantic City. look crowded. And so I'm like, wow. And then I call Keegan. He's like, yeah, I'm pulling up right now. Fucking whips up in the rape van, which is, you know, the fucking van they're going to kidnap it in the next day.

It's like, I don't know, 25 feet long, no windows anywhere. That's by design. There's only windows on the front where someone's driving. And I'm like, what the fuck? He goes, oh, yeah, I just rented the van. I'm like, God damn. From a who? That's what he said.

He's like, I had to go. I put the suitcase in the back and it's just fucking flat like flapping around back there. And there's like buckets and shit and towels and masks. And I'm like, Kegan, where did you get the? He's like, dude, I went to like six different Walmarts. I thought I was going to get arrested. I'm like, you still might get arrested. So this motherfucker like we're driving down the highway.

And then all of a sudden I'm like looking at the spadomach he's doing like 87, 88 like whipping in between lane. Just hear the bucket come. Kia boys. And I'm like, oh, I'm too sick for the shit. So I get to Tommy's house and he's like, all right, let's go for a walk. So we go for a walk. He's still lives in this nice neighborhood. We're going for like a nice romantic late night walk.

And he's like, have you looked up what they're going to do to us? And I was like, honestly, no. You're like, I have syphilis. I have mono right now. I'm like, I need to get back and go to bed. It's going to be fine. It's content, Tom. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's going to be fine. Yeah, they're not going to go that hard. That's exactly the way I said. I'm like, they're not going to go that hard. and he's like bro i was i was on wikipedia there's like a lot of possibility he's like now tommy g goes into places where he's going to get shot yeah yeah he's with a straight actual gang members yeah yeah like this is the most fearless guy i know and now i'm like kind of looking at him like what the fuck are we doing and i'm like just i don't have time to think

about this he's probably he's probably just like sucking himself out so i go back i'm like he goes yo and trey err gonna in from the airport and now i'm like fuck that i'm going to bed I need to sleep. So I wake up in the morning. I'm in one of the bedrooms upstairs. And then in the other bed is this fucking Trevor guy, the Navy dive team guy who I've never met before. And like, we both wake up at the same time. We're like, hey, how are you? Go downstairs, start, like, having coffee and stuff. He's like the sweetest guy ever. And I'm like, oh, no. Andy really fucked this up. Like, he brought like a teddy bear with him. Who's going to buy this? Like, this guy's like the nicest guy ever. Andy comes down. starts making eggs. I'm like, all right, when we're shipping out, they're like, you know, 7, 45, 8 o'clock, whatever. So I say to Andy, I'm like, Andy, what do you think? Should I wear a hoodie?

He's like, he just looks at Trevor and starts laughing. He goes, yeah, it's going to get cold today. And I was just like, all right, bet. And I'm like, hmm, that's interesting. So I throw a cut off and a hoodie and timing me get in the car and we drive with these two motherfuckers to Milwaukee because he lives right outside the city. Now, up until this point, are you aware of what Bustamante is able to do?

Are you aware of Andy's, like, are you concerned about how he will be? Or are you kind of like, oh, he'll be sort of like the way he always is? When I got there, I'll explain that. When I got there, I started to be. I wasn't concerned because I was thinking, I know Andy's like done some shit. I know like he would go that far. But like, I'm thinking this is going to be like kid gloves. Like, we're fucking YouTubers.

It's the softest thing. can be. Now also, I'm curious because you're a confident guy. You're an athlete, right? Like, I imagine there's a little part of you, because I feel the same way where I'm like, I can't handle this shit. Yeah, I mean, like, I'm... Of course I thought that, because I didn't think they were, like, going to go that far. I was like, this shouldn't be that bad. So it was a little party

that's, like, your ego's involved and you're like, I'm not going to break. The ego wasn't there yet. Okay. Oh, that's coming. Okay. Oh, the ego comes in. Trust me. Yeah, that's like the whole point, right? But, like, when Tommy had said that the night before, I was like, should I be... Fuck this. Like, you know, whatever. Now, are you reading Tommy at this point?

Does he seeming a little stressed? Tommy seemed better in the morning. Okay. Yeah. And that was the other thing. Like, he's sitting up front. I'm sitting in the back with Trevor, Tommy's driving, Andy's, and passenger seat. I'm like, they're going to torture us an AIF hour?

Get the fuck out of here. So what we had decided to do, and by we, I mean Tommy, is ran out a warehouse, an abandoned warehouse in Milwaukee, which they also have those apparently. That's more obvious. Right. Yeah. And so we rented it out for two days, and the second day being the day we actually filmed. And we had agreed with the Milwaukee PD that we were going to get kidnapped off the streets of Milwaukee a little bit away from there and them not to do anything because it wasn't real. Like they were told who everyone was, you know, liability waivers, all that.

Tommy's planning is really remarkable. Oh, Tom's planning is amazing. Unless he goes base jumping, then it's not amazing. We'll get to that. Yeah, there's some pending legal charges there. But anyway, so on this one, he had all that setup. And he was like, all right, we're going to go to the warehouse first just so like Andy and Trevor can get an idea of the surroundings and also train the guards and everything. I'm like, oh, this is like the Stanford Prison Experiment shit.

You're going to have guards. So we get there. And the first thing, this is where it starts, Mark. This is where I start going. Uh-oh. The first thing I see is Miguel, who's Tommy's longtime, like, editor, extraordinary. their, you know, genius from my money, like the best editor on YouTube. I love Miguel, quiet, sweet kid, right? Miguel is in it, bro. Like, he's got a Yankee hat on low, like he's

fucking Marty Scorsese in 1977. And, like, he's wearing the black director's clothes. And he's, like, not on drugs, but almost that thing where you're like, oh, he's got something running through his veins today, right? And he's like, hey, Julian, how are you? I'm like, oh, shit, he's ready, go. And so I introduced myself to the other guys. A couple of Tommy's best friends are there and they're going to be some of the guards. And the one guy is like 5-11 completely shaved head, jacked goatee, you know, fucking like ex-military psycho looking dude. And I'm like, oh, okay, that's, yeah, he works. The other one is like his best friend from his whole life. And at the time, like, he was nice. So it's like, okay, that'll be fine. But we get in there. And then Tommy has,

he had a crew of five so he had Miguel, Kegan, Dre, who's a regular lead videographer for a lot of their content and then he had Andrew as well there filming and then he had one other guy like there like there were a couple guys like coming out throughout the day and they were like switching out so there were like five total and Jack was filming. Jack's his other editor with Miguel who's also an amazing editor and so we're all like kind of stand there and we walk through the opening of the this abandoned warehouse and it's a movie set bro like first of all the outside the outside i literally called my agent afterwards and i'm like yo if you guys need a place to film interior and exterior like russian mobsters fucking people up or doing some crazy shit with a drill saw or something i got the place for

you the outside of this place was just off the beaten path in milwaukee like if you look at a Google map of Milwaukee. It's like the city that actually has people in it and then there's a bunch of like there's like a surrounding reservoir of estuaries of a river that like surrounds it and then runs off to some fucking river or like I don't know.

But there is an old 25 foot or 25 meter long drawbridge that's rusted that takes you basically out of the city from like civilization to no civilization and you see this giant open pathway of a giant like warehouse that has a faded out old like brewery sign on it it's six stories high brick

probably 170 years old and it's got the river wrapping around the building and there's like boats and shit literal fortress oh it's a it's a fortress I'm looking at this I'm like wow this is like central cast it like a medieval crackhead losing it so we get in I'm like how much it this cost he's like 500 bucks I'm like wow whoa yeah it's crazy six stories this thing was like fucking I don't know 12 000 square feet like it was 16,000, something crazy. There's like six floors. So we get in there and the first floor,

we know that's not where we're doing the stuff. But I just start walking through the first floor. And there's like, it's like there's nails on the fucking ground, a musty smell. It looked like dirty Mike and the boys just fucked over there last night. And then there's like an abandoned church pew. I took a picture of it. It literally like had a cra,

it was with a chandelier that definitely hasn't seen electricity since the Vietnam War ended above it. and then like a church pew that just had like a cross on it. It's kind of ominous. And not, dude, it was so ominous. Hold on, I have it. It's right here. Not the scariest church pew we've ever seen.

It's, for me, it was up there. That's it. See the chandelier? What is this? That's what I'm saying. This is like an altar. Yeah. Yeah, it was like, is this like where they do it?

You know? They made a literal altar. Yeah, but like I don't think, I don't think for God. Yeah. This wasn't giving me like, you know, your soul is sick. Saved kind of vibes. What is this? I don't know.

Satanic, dude. Maybe I'll give that to you, Crestos, if you want it. Yeah, please. Just remind me. But anyway, so I'm like, I'm just walking around like, fuck. And Andy and Trevor start walking through the place. And this is where I first start to notice. Trevor, it's almost like in real time.

His face kind of had gone from. You're dead eyes. Dead eyes, bro. And Tommy, Tommy comes out to me and goes, y'all, Trevor's get really into it, bro. I'm like, yeah, he actually is. So they're like, we're going to run upstairs to where it's going to be for a second. And they say, you can come up with us because they hadn't set anything up yet.

So we get up there. We're up there for two minutes. Tommy just goes through a couple of camera things. And then they're like, get the fuck out of here. We're going to get it set up. So we go downstairs. They all come down a few minutes later. And they're like, all need to meet without you guys.

Something, you know, sorry, they're going to have like a 15-minute meeting or whatever. Yeah. So they said way on the other side, the warehouse through a few doors is like an old lobby area. It's like carpeted with some shitty bathroom. They're like to shut the doors there. You two go back in there. So Tommy and I go back in there.

Five minutes later, the door opens and some lady with a Wisconsin accent walks up. It goes, I am here to be the on-site nurse? And I was like, oh, we have an on-site nurse. I'm like, I forgot about that. Yeah, you're in the right place. So we're talking with her. And then after like 10 minutes, sweetest woman ever, too. I was like, oh, she has no idea what she is.

You're like, while you're here, I have this cough kind of brood. Yeah. Like, you prescribe. I'm like down in mucinex and shit, like throwing it back. But I'm like, does this, I'm like, Tommy, does this girl know what you got into? He's like, I mean, I said on the Instagram story, we're doing a Sears school training. So I think so. I'm like, I don't know, bro.

So we say to where we're like, you should probably go back and meet with them. So go through the door and still be right back there. So she does. Bro, like an hour goes by after that. They're still meeting. And, you know, Tommy and me, I posted some videos of it. Like, some of it was funny. But, like, Tommy's starting to get psyched out, and I'm getting psyched out, too.

Because I'm like, oh, fuck. Like, this is, after, like, 20 minutes, you're like, what are they talking about back there, right? I know it don't take this long to set up cameras when you got that many guys. Like, I've been in the game long enough. Like, this is not that hard. And also, it's going to be moving cameras, so they're not necessarily having everything stationary at all times. So we're, like, Tommy's like, I don't know about this, man. So at some point, Dre walks in, walks through the door because he's coming in there to go to the bathroom.

And, you know, he's got, like, the directors, like, smock on and everything. Like, he's ready to fucking go. Walks through the door and he just looks at us. And he's like this cool, like Kulia Khan kind of, he's definitely not from Mexico. So I'm going to get this wrong. But like a Kulia Khan kind of Mexican-looking dude. Yeah. And he just looks at it.

And Tommy, Tommy goes, all right, Dre, I know you can't give me details. But on a scale of one. to very, very bad. What are we looking at here? And Dre just fucking looks at him. And it looks at me. He's like, it just starts breathing. No way.

Okay. Woo! It starts going like this. Is this a part of it, you think? No. You don't think they're like, hey, we're going to put him in a room, isolate him. No, no, no. Mark, at this point, I was like, oh, this is bad.

Like, in my head, I was actually, I don't know. You named the feeling like I had it. I was like, oh boy. So Tommy's just like looking at him and he's just like and then proceeds to like walk to the bathroom and like I'm right here. Tommy's right here. And so he's walking the bathroom this way. And Tommy just kind of like follows him like this.

The door shuts to the bathroom. It was like a pause and he turns back around to me. He goes, oh, this is really, really bad. And I was like, might be. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know now. And now you're in a tough spot too because you're like, okay, the ego party is like, I want to power through fuck these guys.

I can't handle it. But then also like the other party is like, I can't pussy out because then the video's fucked and there's all these people that are making this thing happen. Like, I can't just be like, oh, I'd give up. Like you have to endure some of it. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Like here's the thing. And people need to hear this part loud and clear before we go through any of this story.

If you are actually kidnapped by someone who's going to torture you, you're fucked. There's no safe word. There's no getting out of it. You don't know in the back of your head that it's going to end at some point. As far as you know, you're not going to have fingernails, teeth, or a fucking dick by the end of it. You have no idea. That is not the situation we were dealing with. I knew at any point we can say stop and it's over.

Yeah. It's literally, all right, cut, cut, cut, we're good, we're good, we're good. But to your point, there's two things that are coming in. Number one, we're entertainers. We need to do good content here. Otherwise, like Tommy's investment in this video. Yeah, all $700. dollars.

Well, listen, the warehouse was cheap, but obviously there was a lot of other things going on here. So I'm like, that's number one. I flew all the way out here for this as well. Like, you know, I got to do this right for him. And I know he's going to do well with it. Like Tommy does crazy shit every single week. The second thing is, I cannot let Andy break me for clout. I was like, that can't happen.

Like, he and I have a very good friendly rivalry. And I'm like, I need to feel. figure this out today, whatever this is going to be, and just fucking roll with it. So they come back in. They literally met for, it was 75 to like 90 minutes. It was somewhere in there. They all come in and Andy's like, all right, we're going to do the liability waiver videos.

So we get up there. First, it's Tommy and him and he goes, I release all liability to the fucking CIA guy and that bold guy back there. And then I get up there and I make a joke and do the same thing. And then they're like, all right, let's go. So here's the deal. You guys are going to get kidnapped, separate. Separately, you're not going to know the second it's coming, but Julian, you're going to agree to it. Tommy, you're going to resist.

Okay. So they're like, Julian, you're going to go with Jack and you're going to pretend you're filming like a documentary feature for Tommy G on the street of Milwaukee. And then we're going to come up. There's going to be four of us. We're going to say like something like come with us. And you just don't try to punch us. You basically go like, oh, fuck. Because you're surrounded by four guys in real life.

You might actually do that. Yeah, yeah. Because you're like, you immediately go out of this. Maybe I know a guy. Yeah. We can settle this diplomatically. Right. And you're immediately like, I'm not overpowering all four of these.

They're all huge too, right? But then there's some people that'll be like, no, fuck you. I'm not going down. And that was Tommy's, that was Tommy's assignment. Right. But Tommy also, they were doing it where it was like a sneak up attack. So it was, whereas with me it was going to be like they were going to, something like pull up right next to me and immediately have four guys there.

Like immediately. More like an arrest. Whereas with him it was going to come out of nowhere. Kidnapping. So I'm like, okay. And I guess they were going to kidnap me first. I don't know if we really knew which was coming first, but we knew it was going to happen. So I get out, they drop us off somewhere on the street.

Well, first, they drive us in a Hyundai in the truck or in the trunk. They're like, you might as well get used to them. Get used to it. So we're like, all right, fuck it. So Tommy and me get out of the trunk. I get out first, and then they take him and he gets out somewhere else a few blocks away. This is in the middle of like, again, like a real city. And so I'm walking down the street and Jack's like, yeah, just.

just talk to the camera. I'm like, all right, let's do like a Kia Boys documentary or something. I'm like, I'm Julian Dory. I'm here in Milwaukee for my friend Tommy G doing a Kea Boys documentary. And then I see the van like right there pull into the spot four guys get out. And Trevor walks up to me that they surround me. Trevor walks up to me and goes, Julian Dory, I'm like, yeah. I think I did a good job.

I was like, I was just like, I'm like, just do less. So I'm like, yeah. And he's like, you need to come with us. I'm like, something simple. like that and then they get me in there and you know you couldn't really see this on the camera but they like slam your knees into the metal floor oh wow and i was like oh it's not a game i'm like they're not that's not a good first impression yeah it's not for the cameras so i'm just like all right i'll just say lawyer i'm like lawyer and they're like just just don't resist i'm like lawyer and then like

they get me down on the ground they press my face in they turn it like this into a stress position and And that's like the one, oh, that's, I have like an old loose disc in my neck. It never bothers me ever. I can deadlift till the cows come home box. It doesn't bother me. But if you turn it in a certain direction just like that and provide force, it, like, bothers you. Yeah, if you get into a CIA, all of a sudden, it starts to hurt. Yeah, but like just the way, like he turned it the most perfect way.

I was like, God damn it. But he didn't like move anything or anything like that doesn't hurt. Yeah. I'm like, all right, it's fine. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I got to tell you a. story. Imagine you're sitting in your house. It's cold outside. It's a little snowy. And you're like, man, I just want a pinini. So you go and you order it, you know, from a, from DoorDash or something

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And thank you so much to the good folks over at Morgan and Morgan for sponsoring this program and making this show possible with this paid advertisement. Well, let's get back to the show. What's up, beautiful people of America? I am on the road. That's right. I'm doing my hour of stand-up comedy in many. cities, some of which are near you, going to Hoboken, Philadelphia, Fort Wayne, Indiana,

Detroit, and Chicago. You can get tickets at my website, www.m.markagnanolive.com. We also got the link in the description. I would love for you guys to come on out. I say what's up to everybody after the show if you want to come hang, have some laughs, grab a pick with me, shake my hand, and tell me some crazy story. I would love to see you guys there. Can't wait. Let's get back to the show. And so then they like had one of the guards like has his knee, like on your back. So it wasn't like a full shove in. It was like a half shove in.

But you know what I mean. Like it was still like a little bit. Like, okay. And they had, they masked me right before I went down. So they hooded me. It, it was like a musty fucking,

almost like they left it in dust for a long time. On purpose. Yeah. I'm allergic to dust. I got like, I got cured of a lot out. I take allergy shots like all the time. So I'm pretty good with it.

But it wasn't, again, bad first impression. Yeah. It's also not a great thing for you. to lead off with. Right. Is that one that's like dusty.

Yeah, that's where my Jewish uncle would not have been to help. You know? There's a lot of dust in here. He made me cut the dust. So I don't see anything

because I'm hooded, but when I was watching the tape later, Andy just had like the biggest smile on his face. He was like, oh, yes. Yeah. And it's just like, so then Trevor gets me down.

Then he gets out of the truck, like looks around, shuts the door, and they have me miced right here. So I'm just like, well, this is a day ruiner. It's, I don't know. I kind of like that.

I thought that was pretty good. But then they drive off. And I don't know, maybe it was like two minutes, five minutes, somewhere in there. They come to a slight stop and someone gets out. And I'm like, someone else gets out. And I'm like, all right, they got a guard with me. And I'm zip tied in the back. I said that.

They didn't zip tied my feet yet. It was just my hands. Right? So my feet are loose, but they have my feet in that kind of position. Yeah. Which also, you lose your, not that I knew, yet at this point, but you lose your sense of surroundings in a hood. So when even they do these little tactics, like they'll just cross your feet.

They won't maybe at one point in the interrogation, they're not actually even going to zip tie it, which I feel like in a real interrogation, they would even do that. But like, they don't even have to in some ways because your feet stay in that cross position. Yeah, you're like this. Psychologically complicit for some reason. Yeah. Because you think it's, you think they're bound. Right.

They're not. You know they're not. Yeah. But you think they are. So like, I'm in that. And I'm just like, oh, this fucking sucks. So I move my neck a little bit and it's fine. I'm like, okay, all right, let's just not do that again.

And then a little bit of time goes by after they stop. And then I just hear, he's like, fuck you, fuck you, you piece of you, piece. And it's like Tommy coming in. Like the fucking feds call my lawyer, Don Malin, or whatever. And I'm just like, fuck. So I'm like, oh, well, we got to entertain here. I can't see anything. You're not like good on a mic when you're hooded and zipped up.

Yeah, you don't even know if the camera's on you. You don't even know what it sounds like. So like. Timing your jokes is all off. Yeah, it's all right. Dude, I'm fucking bombing over here. That's the thing though. It sounds way better later.

It's still not like your timing's not amazing or anything. But when anytime you said something throughout the day, you're like, God, that was just off. And then you watch it later and you're like, that wasn't that bad. It just everything feels off. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So Tommy gets slammed down next to me. Two guys go on top of him.

Like at some point, I think. turned my head because you could kind of see out of the mask. So they left like one security guy in there and then he comes in and they're all helping with that. So I like kind of turn my head like towards him. So I can see a little bit. And he's like, fuck you. Who are you?

What are you doing? And then at some point I'm like, maybe I should say, Tom? And he's like, who is that? I'm like, it's fucking Julian. He's like, who? I'm like, what the fuck did you do? And then it's just like a little back and forth in the car. wooches off again when you watch the tape and he's just smiling like this yeah sociopath so

andy starts whipping it around Milwaukee now I know they dropped us off fucking three minutes two minutes that three three four minutes from the from the warehouse I can remember the turns we made in the fucking Hyundai and motherfucker starts driving and he would say like 10 minutes to stop to or 10 minutes to to drop point he would yell it out and like it you know he's Tommy's like resisting, so they're like hitting him and shit. And so I made a conscious decision. I'm like, ooh, he's resisting. I'll stay compliant.

Let's play off this. Let's see where this goes. That'll also probably get a little better for me, too. So I'm like, I feel like I'll let him be. It's his channel. Yeah, he's better for the role. Yeah. I mean, I'm not really that.

Listen, I'll be the Joe Pesche, you beat De Niro. That's good. So I go very quiet and I'm just listening. And, like, there were a few times I was trying not to laugh because it's funny. Like, listening to him. And then, like, his lifelong best friend is pounding his head into the metal. And, like, Tommy G. is zero percent body fat. He's jujitsu, like, well-trained.

He was a world-class, borderline national champion, collegiate wrestler. Juiced, obviously, on bunch of steroids. No, yeah. No, zero. Zero, bro. I'm starting the rumor right now. He's not juiced at all. But, like.

People think I'm on steroids, so I have to always put other people on. They think you're... Really? Yeah, dude, come on. A lot of people think that. A lot of people that watch the show. They think you're on steroids? Yes, dude, they comment every episode.

They're like, dude, Mark's obviously juicing. Come on, dude. It's neither here nor there. But a lot of people say that, so I just throw it out there. Anyway, but, you know, so he's like... He's having fun with it. Like, he's not... When they're slamming him down, he's not, like, in pain or anything like that.

You can tell, like, he's like... Oh, this is kind of crazy. Well, blah. You know, like, he's into it. So Andy keeps yawning. Then he would yell like five minutes out. And in my head, I was running clicks. And it wasn't perfect.

I wasn't counting the 60 because other things were going on. But I'm like, no, no, that was, I think we were just driving for like eight minutes. He said 10 minutes, like, you know, where I could see the times are different. And that's a part of it again. Yeah, they're fucking with you. They're trying to fuck with your sense of time. Yes. So between the five minute and two minute, it was like a good seven minutes or something like that.

And then at two minutes, it took at least another five. and there was a point, a minute before we got there, he slammed on the brakes and our bodies went and like, I can't remember if our heads hit the thing if it did, it wasn't hard, but it was like, God damn it. And then I remember the garage, the little fucking like drop zone of the warehouse.

It's like a single cell drop-off garage that has the big wall on the back that then you step out of the back like right up onto it. And like he maneuvered it in there. He didn't go like too, too fast, but like you could feel like the K turn. You, you, you, you, you, like back, garage shut. And you're like, oh.

So they move Tommy first. It's kind of leave me there. And no one's, I don't think anyone's on me. We can look at the tape, but I'm pretty sure I'm just like lying there, zip tide. And he's like resisting, but I can't really tell what he's doing. They take him somewhere. Obviously they take him around the corner at the time. I can't see anything.

So then they're like, all right, get up. And again, I'm compliant. So I get up. They tell me like where to step up because I can't really. see and they have two guys on me and they bring me around the corner and then they go like stand me in a corner outside the elevator shaft and like just have me look into the corner like you know regular little mind tricks Tommy they flatten out and put on the ground because he was resisting and they like slam him down which definitely had to be like kind of painful and so again I'm like just

compliant no again is there a safe word at this point yes okay his was blueberry muffin mine was cupcake. Nice. Yeah. So. And if you said at any point, you'd be done. Right. Even if I said like, all right, stop, like they were going to stop. But like, I guess for the content, they were, it was like, what's the gayest word we can have for the out. So then they bring me in the elevator with him. They bring us up. And I'm in my, I have my cutoff on and my hoodie. And I'm compliant. I get in the chair. They zip tie me in the back. And then they zip tie my feet to the chair. they bring Tommy in he's resisting

they immediately put him on his knees cut off his shirt it was like a off and again I can kind of see just enough through yeah you can see me sitting there I can see just enough

through the hood with like dude the lighting they had one solo light right there and then one floodlight in the back Miguel lit the room so perfectly so I can see just enough to see oh they're zipping they're like cutting this motherfucker off

so they get him down to like his his underwear and that's it and leave the hood on obviously then they get him on and I don't I don't know how long I'd have to look at the raw tape I don't know how long like the rounds were it was going to be in rounds throughout the day which we didn't know but I can afterwards obviously I know so I'll tell you how that worked in a minute but like they just are fucking with us I'm not saying anything they would come up behind me you know push my head down little things everything feels exaggerated so you're not in pain interesting but like when they come when a dude out of no silently comes up behind you and goes like this, you're like,

yeah. And there's also like a little party that like if that just happened in the world, you'd be like, what the fuck is that? And so everything in your brain is telling you like, oh, like stop it, turn around, push the guy, whatever. And it's all getting stopped. So like your brain is just getting broken down, it seems like, just by the little things.

Exactly. Yeah. And you don't, it's weird. It's not a flinch mechanism. It's something else entirely. It's like the same family. But it's not like you're not like, it's more like, what the fuck?

Like, you're like, I don't know, maybe like you're on drugs in a way. Like something similar, obviously not the same thing. Well, obviously if your sight is cut off, like your air is a little bit cut off. Yeah. Like all of a sudden your other senses are kind of compensating. Yep. Senses you're normally using are completely reduced. So now things feel different.

Yep. Like that seems completely logical. Yes. So then eventually they get us in the seats and everything gets quiet. and I can see like just enough make out that all the cameramen are like right there and people are dead quiet and this is where it got crazy bro there I told you how perfect this place was as a setting there's one thing that I didn't even know before we got in there but we found out the railroad track for the city the old railroad track ran directly behind and around the building so the second we sit down and get silent it was like the scene in the godfather like we're in the the middle of this giant space. And then if you can picture it, you see where we're sitting right there. To my right, so all the way back there, I'm sitting like this. To my right, it's just all darkness and open space. And then there's a stairway hatch to look like a horror movie, right?

And then to my left, there's the giant elevator hatch. And on the end, you can walk on either side of it and get to the other side. And there's a bunch of blown out windows and shit. Like they're crack, they're musty, like you can barely see through some of them, and they're like lit in different ways, and the sun is coming from that angle. So in that back part, there's natural light, but that's where the train track runs. So it gets quiet in there. We're sitting in the seats. Everyone is, like, in perfect quiet. And then you just hear, and you hear, like, the windows suddenly like shaking and shit. And apparently Miguel was like, whoa. Everyone's not.

Like, I didn't see any of that, but he was like, oh. Because you guys had no idea that there was a train track. So now in your brain, you're like, what the fuck was that? I'm like, yeah, no. Again, that ego thought is there because it's like I can't let Andy break me for clout. Of course. What the fuck are we going to be doing? Yeah.

Then where it got, it's a different feeling than being, like, scared because you know it can stop at any point. When you're scared of something, this is how I've like kind of rationalized it. when you're scared of something, it's the unknown of like, I don't know when this thing is going to end or how it's going to turn out. Yeah. This was much more of a helpless feeling. Like, oh, fuck. Because I know I got to last a while, but I don't know what's coming and this might really suck. And where it really went from like an eight to a ten was once the train subsided and Andy opened his mouth.

So, like, you've seen the first scene in Zero Dark 30 with Jason Clark, torturing the fucking guy. on the floor and you know when you lie I hurt you you know I hurt and like I like Jason Clark he's a great act that's a great fucking movie they did a great job but like that's how you expect a torture guy to be like I screaming in your face all right buddy relax when someone walks in and their vocal tone is like controlled it's just he Andy walked in he goes something along the lines of it's been a while but he was like gentlemen you're going in pain today. But that pain can stop.

You see that facial expression right there, a little psycho. Like, that pain is entirely up to you. It can stop at any time. All you have to do is answer the questions we give you and we'll let you go. And it was just so, like,

oh no. The control is scarier. I know Andy so well because, like, I've known him for a lot of years. We've talked a lot on air Obviously we've talked a lot off air He's a very complicated character He's a dude who I still think is probably in CIA

In some capacity for sure Tell him that all the time You know But I have a lot of empathy For Who he is right Which includes his flaws And he has some innate abilities

Through his own traumas of life To be able to flip a switch which I have no doubt, obviously, and the things he was able to accomplish while at CIA, you know. I'm just saying. Like, he's saying, yeah, I left in 2014. Sure, he did, pal.

But anyway, you know, he's only like talking to top Fortune 100 companies to see suites to get him his clients for no reason at all, right? He just enjoys spying. Anyway. After seeing this footage, I believe, whatever he says. Yeah. Whatever he wants him to think is what I think.

Yeah, but, like, I could hear that thing in his voice and I had heard it a handful of times. Like I remember when I did episode 107 with him and that was the second time we talked. It was back in my parents' house, end of June 2022. And there was a point like 40, 41 minutes in there. We're talking about fucking good versus bad, good versus evil, how nothing's 100%, nothing's zero percent. And then we're going back and forth ironically about torture and whether or not we should do it. And you can kind of see it on camera, but I don't think you could possibly appreciate it

without having been there in the fucking room with him, talking with him over whiskey about this. But this fucking look went in his eyes that was just like, think of a thousand yards stare that actually has an endpoint and that endpoint is meant to inflict death just by the stare itself.

That's what that was. And like, I was going on and on about something because we were a little lit. And he's like, you talk about that terrorist? I've lived that. You talk about that dude who put a baby in a microwave. just to watch it fucking burn.

I've seen that. And like, I was like, whoa. Yeah, you got it, dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, I was like, please, continue. That was a similar, that tonality, that octave was right where this was. And you're remembering all this. And I'm remembering that in the moment.

And I'm like, oh. Oh, shit. Okay. So Tommy, God bless him, entertainer, all right? About that life. good good friend well done Tom Tom Tom is shit talking with him and at this point it is not voluntary for me to be compliant I am now you know that plan I had to be compliant for like the entertainment value I'm being compliant for survival yeah yeah there's no like this this is not like a difficult

thing I'm like you know he's already cut down to his fucking underwear like if I say one thing what's the that's probably me next what are they going to do to him while he's just skin out here in this fucking cold, dirty warehouse with AIDS on the floor? Like, I don't know. So I'm just like, all right, let's just get through this day. So the whole first round,

whatever it was, 40 minutes, 50 minutes, something like that. They're just fucking with us, right? So they're putting Tommy in like the transit position where they would put him down, no, not yet, Christos, that's round two. Go back.

Right there, yeah, right there. That's good. So they would put him down in this transit position where you can see that his hands are basically all bound where his feet are. I don't want to move all this chair and fuck all this up.

But I will say it's not comfortable. Yeah. We're going to do stress positions later, though, as it would turn out. This was the one you could last the longest in. It's not comfortable,

but you're like, if I needed to last an hour in this, I could. Which is a part of it. Right. Like, they wanted to be endurable to an extent. That's actually perfect,

Christos, right there. So this is what they would do. They'd be talking with him. He'd be fucking with them. They just leave me zip tied at the feet regular and zip tied behind. And they would come up and like push my head back or shit like that when I can't see it coming. Just randomly. And then at one point, fucking psycho Trevor dude who, that's a perfect shot as well.

The contrast right there. Incredible lighting, Miguel. Yeah. Just shout out to Miguel for the lighting. But like, you know, he was so in it and scary and you could feel it. Like his breath was controlled, everything. So at some point, he starts like, he comes up behind me. and I have my finger,

I'm zip tied, and he starts moving my fingers like this, like one by one. And in my head, I'm going, oh no, I didn't sign up to get my fingers,

bro, I needed those. No, no, no, no, no, don't break. But I'm not saying this, but in my head, I'm like, no, don't break my finger. I'm compliant. Turns out he had wrapped the zip tie so tight.

Now, I didn't care. It seemed normal to me. The blood wasn't getting to my hands. So he kept, he even called, I didn't even know this. He called the nurse over at one point and she was doing it. And she was like, ah, he's good. Which I don't, you know, listen. Where is this nurse?

I don't know about that nurse. She said everything was good all day. It felt like it was a predetermined answer. But anyway, so he was like, okay. Like, he told me that later. I didn't know that at the time. But every time I'm like, oh, fuck, is he going to do it this time? I'm like, ah, I need that metal finger.

I'm right-handed. No, no, no, friend's favorite finger. Oh, yeah. Come on. You're going to break two. So, anyway, he doesn't break my fingers. And I'm being compliant. Tommy's not.

And eventually they're like pushing them off the fucking chair and whatever. And, you know, putting them in a new position. And then they would like pull up my shirt and like slap me. It wasn't like, it sounds way worse. They had good mics. It sounds way worse on camera. What's bad about it is you don't know what's coming. So you're like, oh.

But like it wasn't like painful. It's just like yeah like that. And when you're not, when I do it, I expect that. I know what it is. When you're not doing it, it's like a weird sensation. But I was so locked in that I'm just like, don't react to anything. Right. Which apparently he was like concerned.

He told me after he he's like, we like hit him and he wouldn't do anything. We're like, is he good? Like is he, he got pulse? All right, he's good. Now in an actual scenario, the slaps would have been. harder? I think so. That's what I presume. Or like with like a little like, you know, baton or something to actually make you feel it, whatever. Yeah, yeah. I would say, I would say, well, I mean, I've never

been abducted and tortured by the CIA, but I got to think if they're hitting you when you're not looking, it's a full-blown like when your mom was really mad at you when you were nine and thought because you're a guy and she's a woman, it's okay. It seems like a very specific that much. Hey, listen, that's the Italian side. But like that, like, they're definitely doing that to these guys. Also, you said the DP was Miguel. What was his name? Or Miguel, that's Tommy's aficionado head. It could have helped you with the coloring here. You know what I mean? Like, you're a pale guy. But like, this is like, it's very pasted. So here's the thing. And this was, it was crazy because then I got tan like a week later. I'm like, God, I was a little late. Right.

But I'll show you a video. The lighting, the way they had the two lights was such that if you were on the left side, everything was like 58, 5,500 Kelvin, like, pasty-ass white. But if you were on the right side, look at the lighting. Look, a lot of explaining here. See how tan I am on that? You're pretty pasty in this, dude. I'll be honest, you are white, bro. I'm going to give that to Christos because that's a lie. I look like crestedous in that one. This video's not going to come through, but you are past. I'm not, in that? Oh, my goodness. Look at that. Look at that. You are so pale. You are fully Irish. You're all. A hundred percent Irish, dude.

Look at that. Dude, can we lower the lights in here? We should lower the lights down before he's going to get sunburned. For real. Look at the lighting on that. We need to put sunscreen on him because I do think he's going to get burning here. And I also got like five tints past that, even still at this point. Jesus Christ.

Damn. Anyway, so the lighting's like, but look at how tan his head is right there. Yeah, but he's a tan guy. No, he's more to the right. He's Samoan. He's Samoan or something. See where the lights hitting his head? He's Polynesian, I think.

See where the lights hitting his head or just off left the center? So then it's tan on the right side And somehow you are a ghost I'm just saying it's just weird that they did the coloring like that I'm on your side I'm on your side Look at the left hand and the right hand of the guy behind me Yeah exactly tan out of the light White in the light see that? I don't know dude

And he was a tan dude I don't know I'm getting attacked here I don't like this I'm just saying you don't like I'm saying he did you wrong in the coloring The coloring was fine Thank you Chris The coloring we're gonna lower the lights in here that way Yeah I mean Jesus Christ But anyway

So like this this this was is all like manageable. It's just like you don't know what's coming next. So you are helpless the whole time. You're just like, all right, right now it's fine. What's in a minute? Yeah. But I'm not saying anything.

And then at some point, like I said, they hit Tommy over. And he was, there's a video of it on Instagram where Andy just leans up to him because he's in transit so he's not attached to the chair anymore. And Andy goes, are you still with us? And just goes like this, like lightly like this. And Tommy goes and flops like a fish. He's like, I'm still here. And then comes back up.

And I'm just, this is the worst part. Like, I'm trying not to laugh. Yeah. Because, like, he's funny, bro. Yeah. Like, I'm always,

you laugh. That's what I'm saying. I'm like, don't laugh. Don't let just think about, think about something not funny. But the way you describe Tommy is he just sounds like the Joker.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You're not going to break me. No, no, that, like Tommy is about it. So they do this for a while. And then they're like,

all right, get them up. So they get us up. And they take us back by where the windows are. And then they take us to the windows. If you cut to the beginning, Crestos, there's a shot of it in the intro.

I don't think it really matters that much. But there's a shot of it in the intro where they pull our hoods up. And so they stick us down on two buckets. And they take our hoods off. They leave us zip tide. And they're all standing back by the windows, the whole crew. There's two cameras going. And Andy and Trevor are there.

And they're very serious, but they're not angry. They're like, okay, guys, we're off right now. So the point is, in each of these rounds, we're going to get your reaction afterwards live in the moment so it can be realistic. We're going to ask you questions. We'll be nice to each other. And then when you guys are ready, we're going to go back into it. And we're like, okay, I realize when they take the hood off, like, you can see my face when they take it off for the first time.

I was like, I was so, I'm Christos with the ads. I was so fucking like. The reflection off your thighs was lining it. And like Tommy is looking at me like this. and I'm just and I'm just like and we're asking they started asking questions and your voice is just low

so because they didn't play a lot of that interview but your voice is low and they would ask me a question I'd be like it was really tiring like that and I wasn't trying to talk low I just was and it was like oh wow so I thought about that because I'm like all right next time I come back here

just like whatever I think if the decibels I think are at 18 they're really at like minus 27, get that bitch up to like 10. Is that another psychological thing? They talked to you slowly and low to get you to like mirror? I, you know, I don't want to say yes or no. I don't know what I can tell you is that they wanted it to be. Yeah, you can see me right there.

That was right when they took the hood off for the first time. I was like, what the fuck? And they wanted it to be, you know, actual real dialogue and answers like analytically of people who were in it. So we did that Maybe it's like five minutes, ten minutes, hard to say Somewhere in there And they're like, all right, you ready? I can't

So they stick our hoods back on They pick us up, they're like, get him back to him And they bring us back into the chairs Tommy starts resisting right away To like, undo his zip ties So like four guys go around him He's like and he would like resist Like while they're, I'm like Tom

Dude, we get it dude I'm like you don't you know But it's like They're like all right, secure, secure, all right, zip tie off, all right, zip tie, secure in the back. And they're like doing it like military style. I'm like, wow, they're really, they're not taking any chance. Oh, this was the best part.

I forgot this. When we're in the room early before this all starts, there's a video of this of Tommy and and I talk into each other. I can give it to if you want Christos, but it was when Dre came back there. He started rolling the camera after he got out of the bathroom. And Tommy's laying on the ground and I'm talking to him and he's like, yeah, I want to figure out how to escape today. I feel like we could do it.

And Dre starts rolling the camera. And I'm like, are you, are you fucking stupid? We're not escape. Do you see how many guys are out there? We're going to be zip tied? There's no escaping. And he's like, well, they don't know. I got a little shake with me.

And he whips out like a nail. And I'm like, Tom. You're going to stab your friend. I go, I'm like, Tom. It's content. All right. Like, the guy's got a family. We can get out at any point.

Like, you wouldn't have a nail. when you go with why would you have a nail when you get that would imply you knew you were getting abducted who the fuck carries around a nail he's like well what if I'm Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible

and the Epstein files I found him and I'm just and I'm like so you'd have a fucking no you'd have a Swiss army knife you'd have a fucking pocket knife you'd have something normal that he's like well you don't know

what normal is and I'm like no I'm telling you that doesn't work and he's like all right well how about you keister this and we'll talk about late so he hands it to me and I immediately chuck it back

I'm like, anyway, you're not going to have a nail going back there because you're not knowing that you're abducted. You just got to go with the flow. We're not escaping, whatever. And he's like, oh, yeah, Brad Pitt. I'm like, it doesn't matter. This is not an act in that way. Put it in your ass.

Put the nail in your ass. There's no stunt doubles here. So, anyway, that's on cat. That was kind of funny. I mean, that's also hilarious if at some point there's wanting to get stabbed and he's like, what the fuck? Why is this a part of this for you? Where'd you get that for me?

I got seven more in my ass. You made me bleed in my own blood. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because you need help pitching your tents. Yes, and that's what we do over here at camp. Maybe you're in line waiting for a concert somewhere and you just need something to lean on.

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Bluetooth.com. Use the promo code gagdon and start laying it down like they deserve. Let's get back to the show. So I'm just, while they're doing this, I'm thinking like this motherfucker really thought like he might escape. We might escape earlier. There's like four dudes holding him down just to do a zip tie. So they get them and then they slam his ass. Like, on the hardwood floor. And this is not. I mean, hardware floors aren't that comfortable.

I slept on them before, you know, like I was an only child. You had to take what you could get. But like, not like this one. This had, this had,

I mean, a lot of soot. It had nails everywhere. It had splinters sticking up out of it. It was like uneven. I mean, the Amish did not make this. It was not smooth at all.

It was very, yeah, it was a poor job. But anyway, so he's down there. And Andy, Yeah, you see it. That was when he pushed him off the chair, I think.

Yeah. So then they carry him over there. They slam him down. And Andy just fucking, you hear like buckets in the back. He's like slapping buckets. And he goes, I'd really like to get to lunch or some shit like that. And he starts walking the bucket forward and he had a bag of ice. And so he takes the ice.

He throws the bag of ice down. And then he takes the water that has ice in it and dumps it on Tommy. He's like, and this was the worst part. Like, when you're, as you'll see later, when you're reacting to things that are actually, like, happening, you let out like a guttural primal sound. It's like if someone, if someone like does something painful to you as what happened later, I'm like, wha. We're like shit like that. It's like, it's not playing. You're like, oh, wow.

Yeah, that was in there. I was in there somewhere. I was not like a deadlift sound. That was like, you're getting deadlifted sound. Yeah, yeah. So Tommy would react, and he's doing his guttural thing, but his guttural sound is, ah! What is that? And I'm just like, oh, God.

Like, he's a Spider-Man journalist or something? Like, the water comes down, he's like, yeah! Wait, can we get audio on this? I hope Tommy doesn't clip us, but let's see if we can play. So I'm like, oh, don't, oh, they put the fan down, too. And he's like, ah! And so I'm just like, don't laugh, don't laugh. And he keeps shit talking them.

Really? And so, like, most of that is cut from this because they, you know, as far as the actual documentary where we show things in this, 15 minutes of it is showing the stuff. We were doing this for six hours. Fuck. Right? So all the back and forth and dialogue, build up, all that's cut. I'll show you to roll footage when you come over.

Yeah. It's gnarly. So, like, he's down there a while, which, by the way, they lied to him about that. That was nasty. Which that is so. We're going to get to that later. He was like really broken up about that too because he's like, no way. He felt like a bitch for a minute.

And he was telling me, I'll get to that. But he was telling me later, I'm like, Tom, no, you were down there for a long fucking time. So anyway, they put him down there. They're dumping it on him like that. And I'm trying not to laugh. And he keeps shit talking him. And at one point, I'm like, I'm like, Tom, you just got it. And as I say like got or something like that, I hear, boom, bam.

And I, like, unfazed, like, I was phased, but I was just like, let it, you just got to let it happen. I finished the line. And they were definitely back there like, what the fuck? Like, you're supposed to not finish the line now. But I, like, I, like, all right, let's not do that again. So then he wouldn't, what they were asking, by the way, for people is, like, Tommy called me when I was good and on the plane the day before. And he's like, all right, we got to come up with three secrets a piece. They're trying to get out of us.

So you think of like a cartel guy or something. So I think of these things. I'm like, this is like a little complicated because we're making it up. It's not real, but we're basing it off of real people. And so then in the morning, Andy was like, we're not doing that. It's going to be like, what's the capital of the United States? What's one plus one? Your job is to just give the wrong answer.

Which, of course, when we first sat down and Andy started talking after he gave that initial speech that was creepy, he says to Tommy. So the only question I have for you, Tommy, and you can make this stop right now is, what is one plus one? and Tommy's like, one plus one. He's like, yeah. He goes, two. I'm like, do what the fuck? Andy was unfazed, though. He didn't react.

He was just like, one plus one. You say it's two. That's a very interesting answer. You know, I got to know, though. It was one plus two. Three, that's what it was. He goes, so what is one plus two? And Tom's like, Tom's like,

four. I'm like, all right, that's better. Nice. So we're back on drive. There was a minute where Andy's like, wow, that was fast. Don't commit a crime with Tommy G. Jesus Christ. He'll just ask and tell him the answer.

So Andy keeps asking him these questions. And Tommy's like, five or best, better he out. He's like, fuck you. Yeah. And he's zipped tied fully, like ice pack on, eventually that had an ice pack on his back. And here's the thing, people, this is what you can't really, especially from the documentary, what you can't really appreciate. Tommy, his entire hood is. is soaked. Of course. You got water dumped all over. Forget that it's cold water and ice water

and forget the fact that they're pushing all the ice up against them to filly them like a fish before you're going to grill it. When you have a hood soaked, and I, of course, didn't Google any of this ahead of time. That would have been nice. Scientifically speaking, once it's soaked or even like damp, every breath you take no matter or doesn't matter, it comes back into your mouth and nose and it creates a sensation of you cannot breathe so they have tommy they would come up and turn his head in a stress position he's lying in the water like trying to not drown in the little bit of seepage water right there and he's and i can i haven't had any of this happen to me yet so i'm like holy shit i hear him and you just see like i can see just through the mess you can see

that the mer is coming in and he's down there for a while and they keep shit talking him so I don't know how long this part, like how long it took to get to this part, but at one point, I feel Andy come over by me. And I can't really see him, but because they have my head down like this. I'm like, yeah. And he's like, all right, Tommy, what is the answer to one plus two? And he's like, seven. And then they take the, the water and dump it on me. And they're like, you hear that? Your partner's going to start suffering now when you give a wrong answer. And I didn't say like, Tom, keep, just keep giving the wrong answer. I'm like, Tom's a answer. He's good. he's not going to give a right answer.

We'll let this keep going. It's fine. I'll start sharing the load here. Pause. But anyway, so, you know, then they would ask him and then they'd slap me. And now the slats were a little harder. But again, like, to your question earlier, they would have been way harder if this were a real situation. I wouldn't even describe it as 50%.

But psychologically, what's interesting is that Tommy doesn't know how hard you're getting slapped. So the whole point is that like, hey, everything you do, someone else is now going to suffer. Right. So you're suffering and now you're inflicting suffering on someone else. psychologically it's fucking with you and he doesn't know if you're getting the ship punched out of it. Well, he's also suffering a lot right on the ground, which doesn't help. So there's simultaneously two things going on in his head. Which psychologically is just like, again, so interesting.

Yes. And they end up positioning the fan right behind him. That's me. That's later. But they end up position in the fan right behind him. I was like, that's cold, bro. Like, pun intended. That's like nasty.

And so then they take the ice and they like sit it on my lap. That was fine. That shorts on. Like that wasn't a big deal. So that bought some time because they're like, oh, that's something. It didn't feel like anything. But you can hear his breathing getting denser and denser. And it's been a while.

And so eventually, I think they dumped on him again. And then you get like you, they didn't have this in the documentary, but you can see it on tape. There was one close up shot. Jack had some fucking unbelievable shots throughout the day. But he had a close up shot where you can just see it. And it's like, there's not, there's no air in there. Yeah. It's like time to go.

So Andy goes Tommy what is one plus two and you just hear Tommy go one plus two Fuck it three Wow and then they're like get him up get him up get him up so they get him up they like they undo his zip undo his up whatever and and he's good he's good oh before all this at one point in the middle There was like silence after they dumped shit on him and then like you don't hear anything but you just it's like something like that and you just hear like the nurse come over. And I see her like bending down over his corpse and she like does like a pulse thing and

she goes, he's good. And like what the fuck? Where did you go to school? Where did you learn? He's not good. But anyway, so they get him back and the Andy takes the ice pack and now pulls up my shirt and puts it in the back. Which is kind of nice.

You have a sore back? That's kind of. That's exactly what I was thinking because now I'm going to be back here for whatever 10, 15 minutes as it would turn out. That wasn't so bad. So I'm just sitting here, just zip tied to the chair with the ice. I thought someone was there, but I'm pretty sure when I looked at the tapes, because they moved all the cameras, that they literally left me there.

There might have been one dude back there watching. But I, you know, I'm zip tied at the feet and the hands. Like, I'm not going anywhere. So unlike Tommy, there's no escaping happening here. So they go back there. I can't hear anything. I, like, can vaguely hear talking, but it's low. and then after whatever it was 10, 15 minutes, I hear,

and they all start walking back in. And I hear all the cameras getting set up. And that would throw you off. It's like fucking Al Jazeera setting up for the beheading. And I'm like, you know, I can just imagine, like, this is actually like kind of serious, but you're like imagining some of these guys who have been captured before. Did you put yourself there?

Were you like, oh, fuck. Like, I think I did that afterwards. I don't think I was doing that during. But like when I was thinking about this afterwards, I'm like, God, this got to be so unnerving. Like, you're about to have your head cut off for, you know, a la or something. Yeah. And you just hear like, all right, beep.

And like the beeps of the cameras and the movements of like a tripod. Like, it's a YouTube video. Like, that's got to be the most. They stop it. You know what I mean? Yeah, they're like, I wait, pause. I need the 256. This is a 128.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, hold the knife. Yeah. And like, fucking Jamel. all back there's like, all right, no problem. Yeah, yeah. And Osama, do the ad read. Come on.

Come on. Give a shoutout to better help or whatever. So, anyway, so they all come in. And then, I don't know Tommy's there. Tommy's now there. And they were, dude, Andy, I saw this on the Rawls afterwards. He's finishing interviewing Tommy. And he got Tommy dejected because he lied to him and said,

Tommy was like, how long was I down there? He goes, three minutes. He's like, three minutes? he couldn't even He was down there I went and looked at the tape I called him like the next week I'm like dude

you're down there for 15 minutes So he lied to you on camera Which I guess was to like fuck with him He's like that's fucked out But at this point Tommy's out of the exercise He's out of the exercise So do you think the exercise is also over Because you're like

All right well we did You know we got the information No I'm like I'm next And I knew it Because they left me there like this And they took him back And I'm like well Are you thinking it's gonna be a different thing

Than what he went through? I think I was thinking and I was just going to have the same thing happen and it was probably going to be the same ending at some point and it's like, all right, just don't let him break you for clout right away. Because now you're also thinking about Tommy. I got to last longer than him. I didn't know how long, like,

he got dumped on so many times. It was more a matter of like, this needs to happen multiple times. Yeah. If they're going to do the same exact thing. And then at some point when it feels like it's a similar time to what he had, will bail. Now, are you, do you meditate?

A little. I'm not great at it. I used to not be able to do it at all. I think you asked me that the last time I was here. I was like, I've never been able to do it. I do it a little bit now. I'll do it in between sets at the gym. Right.

That's when I meditate. So now when you're in this situation, are you trying to put yourself into like a calm state? You're like, okay, let me lower my nervous system. Let me breathe. When I heard them coming back, there was a thought that was like game on. Because again, I'm like, I just got to let it's probably,

I'm thinking, all right, it's probably going to be like the same thing. Maybe it's not, but I'm like telling myself hoping because now I at least know what to expect. It'd be the same thing. It seemed like it was about 15 minutes to me, which I turned out to be right about. I think it was like 13 or 14 minutes total that he was down there on the ground being dumped on. So I'm like, all right, let's try to last a similar time, entertainment value, get Miguel what he needs.

And we'll get the fuck out of here on this part. And God knows what they're going to do this afternoon. Because we're like, we know this is going for like another three, four hours after this. So they come back and I hear them all coming back. and Andy, when they were interviewing Tommy after the three minute lie, he was like dejected because he felt like,

I only lasted three minutes, it's crazy. It's like someone saying, like you couldn't get your dick up or something. It's like someone saying you only lasted three minutes. Yeah, right. Or like, he's like, he lasted 11 seconds. It's like some hot chick. You're like, damn it, you know?

But Andy's talking with him and he's on the bucket and he's like a little dejected. I'm seeing this later on the footage. and Andy's like when you break it's compliance when you give in it's compliance when you tell us what we want to hear

it's compliance and Tommy's just like and then he's like why don't you come with me let's go see your friend Julian and the camera turns off and Andy dude took zero takes all day he was

from the moment we started to the moment we ended he never had a take it was he was on for the full six, seven hours. On. So as the camera beeps and Andy's starting to walk around and goes, turn the camera back on. I want his reaction when he sees Julian. He's directing the fucking thing. Psycho. Psycho, bro. So they get multiple angles on Tommy and it looks pretty badass because Tommy's jacked. Yeah. So they're following like fucking bane with the light natural lighting coming in from by. It's not in the documentary. I'll show you later. But the natural lighting coming in and they all come

around and then it like cuts jack cuts in the camera to me while they're all walking in i'm just sitting there like an asshole like this but it's like they all get quiet and they all look around and they all start standing there like this and then andy walks around and then jack gets the camera up and this part now i remember he's like julian you haven't given us the correct answer to our questions yet today and so he comes up behind me and then fortner comes up behind me fucks with my head, like puts it down. And he goes, you know, we can all make this stop. Obviously, you saw what just heard, what just happened to Tommy or something like that.

So just answer my question and it'll all be over and, you know, you can get comfortable. What is the capital of the United States? And I'm like this in a hoodie and I just immediately go, or before that he said, he said, you never answer our question and they're pushing me down. I go, you never asked. And then I come back up and he goes, so what is the capital of the United States? And I'm like, Guadalajara. I was like, what's the most retarded thing I could say?

And Gua, like, I don't know why that was in my head. I couldn't point to Guadalajara on the map. I know it's in like Costa Rica or some shit. Whatever. Mexico. Some cartels there. And so, and so he goes, that is not correct. What is the capital of the United States?

And at this point, again, nothing feels like it's smooth. So I couldn't appreciate this until after. When I was watching it, you just see me because I'm in a hood. I can't really see him. But I'm sitting there like this. He goes, what is the capital of the United States? And there's like a pause. And I go, Guadalajara and nod like this and then look back forward.

I was like, that was pretty good. But then he's like, oh, God damn it. So they come down. he and Trevor and the guards put me in transit position like they had Tommy not for long a minute maybe something like that like not even enough to say like wow this is uncomfortable it's just like all right what are they doing and so and trevor kneeled down behind me this is about four minutes into them starting to work on me now and again nothing's really happened i just haven't answered their questions and it's whatever and they and he goes all right when i'd heard something come behind me

And when I saw the tape later, he was pointing to the guards and going like this. And they brought a wrestling mat behind me. I didn't know what it was. But they leaned down next to my chair. And before, it's like at the 27 minute mark, Christos, I think, I want to say. A little bit before that now, like 25. A little bit before that, 23 and a half maybe. Like they lean over my chair and he goes, all right, it doesn't matter.

One more try. and they're like, what is the capital of the United States? My hands are like this because I'm in transit now. And I'm down here and I'm like, Guala Hara. And then he goes, and they flipped me over onto the thing. Now it wasn't like horror. They just flipped it over. The chair folded.

My zip tie somewhere broke. But like you're like an infant. It's right there. Can we roll this? Right there, Christos. You're on it. Press play. So it's not hard.

You go right onto a map. But you feel like an infant. You're like, because you don't know where anything is. You don't know. You don't know. Yeah, but that's them being nice. It was comfortable when I landed on it, but I'm like, I don't know where I am or what this is. Is this like a fucking BDSM torture chamber?

Like, I have no fucking idea. And so then Trevor gets down and he starts fucking with me. Like, pause, but like gets on top and then, you know, you see they cross my legs like that. And they immediately pull up my whole shirt. They throw down the ice. And then they brisk. they started with water bottles or something. Like he comes over and he goes, he goes,

do you know that 23% of countries around the world don't have workable drinking water? And I was like, I think he told me that once as he's dumping water on me and then starts, they dump the ice, they rip open the ice, they start filleting it down into me. And then they bring over the bucket and they dump the bucket.

And this is where I went, oh, fuck. Because when I got on, they started with the water bottle there, you see it. When I got on the mat, I was like, all right, great, I'm on a mat. And then once the bucket came down, they put the fan down. That's them putting the ice. I think they already put the bucket. How bad is the fan?

The fan sucks. Really? Because the fan basically cools everything. So you're already laying in ice. But what happened was there was nowhere for the water to escape. I'm on a mat. It's one of those folding wrestling mats. So it's closed.

Is that on purpose? I guess because it was like a trade-off. Tommy, when he was on the ground, the hardwood floor is way more uncomfortable, right? But the hardwood floor has some seepage, so you're not really laying in a puddle. This is just a small pool. This becomes a pool. So they turned my head at first, like when he first got me down there, and then you see him dumping it directly on my hood. Yeah.

So he dumped the water to make sure my hood was soaked. And then I realized my head is like this and I'm, or yeah, it was like this at this point. And I'm in a quarter inch of water. And if I breathe, I'm drowning. It's like when you hear those stories about like an Alzheimer's patient who drowns in a puddle because they fall and they don't know how to get up. Yeah. That's what I was thinking of. My great-grandfather died of that.

So I was like, oh, shit. I mean, you only need like an inch of water to drown. Like if you can't move. Yeah, less. I would say it was probably, well, if you're lying down in the indentation, maybe it's a half an inch. And you got the mask on. Right. And so you're breathing it into this part of your mouth. And so I have to hold my head up. And your hands are still tied.

And your hands are zip tied in front of you. They're down here. And they have the ice tucked in up here. And they just poured water all around you. And now they're pushing all the ice into you. And then the fan is right on you. And then Trevor walks around. I feel I'm walking around the edge. Comes back around, leans down, drinks the water, dumps a little on me, which was kind of cold. They was drinking the water. And then takes my head and does that thing again. turns it the other way in the stress position and pushes it down. Now, you kept on saying stress position. I think most people can infer what this is, but could you get more context on what?

It's like this. So for me, it's extra stress just because of like what that position does when it has force on it. And that's a declassified CIA tactic where they would basically put you into these stress positions to just make you stressed out. Right. So he does that and now I'm in the fucking puddle and you're breathing like this. And you're feeling it. And Andy goes like that, the initial part where they're dumping and doing that, that's a full three minutes. Right?

So now I'm about seven minutes into this part. And what are you thinking at this point? Are you like, okay, this is endurable? Like, I can do this for a period of time. I'm like, let's see. I was like competing with myself. I'm like, all right, let's see how long I can last with this. I don't know what the fuck is coming.

This is obviously a little different than Tommy. Maybe it'll be easier, you know? Like, I'm on a mattress, but then I'm in the puddle. I'm like, maybe I would want the hardwood floor right now. I'd suck on the knees, but like this sucks because I'm holding my head like a quarter inch off the mat to be able to breathe. Which I don't even know if Trevor knew I was doing that. He might have pushed it down if I did, but he can't really see like with the hood. And the hood is soaked.

So they rip off my shoes. They're all fucking with me. And Andy goes, all right, you know, I'm going to let you sit with that for a little bit. You can have some thoughts and joy. that nice cold water or whatever and you know you just holler if you need me and then he walks back

I don't know this but he shows the time like to the camera guys and leaves and they all just capture it cameras are rolling it's capturing the whole thing and it's a few minutes that they leave me there how long does it feel like about the same time

I'll tell you why I was almost dead right on all the time because I had watched that fucking bin Laden documentary like a couple weeks before and Rob O'Neill talked about how the guy who like whacked bin Laden, he talked about how when they were flying to bin Laden's compound, you know, there was a period where they were going to be in Pakistani airspace and they were afraid they were going to be shut down. Maybe it was like 120 minutes or something.

So it was constant fear and he decided, you know what? I don't want to sit with this. So I'm just going to count. I'm going to keep counting. And, you know, we'll pass the time that way. and he started at one and just worked his way into the thousands. So I started counting in my head, not out loud. I wasn't like, one, two, but in my head I was like, one, two, three. And so I could feel that he was, and I figured I was counting off tempo. So it was going to be wrong, but I turned out to be like almost right. I could feel it was like whatever it was.

I can't remember three or four minutes the first time before he comes back. And he asked me, you know, he's like, not exactly a beach and seashells, right there and I'm like wouldn't say so and he's like couldn't see shells I can't hear you through all your shaking and I was like wouldn't say so oh at this point you're shivering

oh dude your whole you can't control it your whole body once I was down once they poured the initial stuff you're like that the whole time I don't know if you can see that enough but like there's no controlling it you've been in an ice bath before yeah but like

does this compare how does it compare it's totally different Because you're in soaked clothes, you're unaware of what's coming next. And in an ice bath, at least when I've gone in, you're fully submerged to your neck. So you're not as in touch with if there is like shivering happening underneath there what it is. But when you are a fish out of water, so to speak, and the water is just around you and the ice is around you and your internal body temperature is sinking, you know, I didn't do any research on this before. So it's like in the moment, I'm like, that was dumb. But, you know, it...

You also didn't know you're going to be basically waterborne. Right. So, well, I still didn't know at this point. So I'm like shivering and it sucks. So he comes back and then we have that back and forth. And he's like, what is the capital of the United States? I'm like, I already told you. He's like, all right, you can sit more.

So now he's getting frustrated and he waits, whatever it was. I started counting again. And he comes back, stands by... me and then he goes every country has a capital join every country has a capital and i know you know the capital of the united states you got that answer for me and i'm lying there like that i'm shivering my ass off and i'm like i thought it was i thought it was quite a lot or i'm like uh what did i say first i said i don't know i've been telling you the answer i I thought it was Guadalajara or something.

He goes, I know, I know, I know. But just tell me the answer to the United States and, you know, we can get you out of here. And I was like, this is where the timing was good. I was like, through the shivers, I'm like, well, obviously it's not Guadalajara. And I don't see this, but Andy's back there. It was the one time all day where he's like, like kind of smile. He's like, okay, go on. I'm like, so next best guess, Sue City.

And he's like, God damn it. He's like, I admire your gumption, Mr. Doer. Oh, what I said to him first when he went down, but it wasn't, this was the funny part, when he knelt down and asked me the Capitol. And he's like, you give me the wrong answer. And I was like, well, I'm from New Jersey and we're fucking retarded. I don't know. I thought it was quite a lot of hard.

That's exactly what I said. And he's, and he smiled. That was the first time he smiled. I fucked that up. Sorry. That was the first time he smiled. And he goes, I'm not arguing with your opinions about being a resident. of the state of New Jersey, but I just need to know

the capital Guadalajara. And that's when I said, like, well, obviously, or the capital of America. Well, obviously it's not Guadalajara. Next best guest, Sue City. So now he's like pissed. And he leaves the room and goes, you know, I don't know he's doing this, but he goes and fills the bucket up with ice and water. He comes back two minutes

later and directs the guys. And they're like, all right, let's sit up. Let's sit up, Julian. Let's go to the next part. And just be careful with this poor shivering soul. Like, he would just make fun of me, like every spot. So they bring me up and they have the one close up guy on me. I'm shaking like this, like literally like this. They have me on my knees and I'm like, all right, well, I guess we're done with the laying down stuff. Like, what the fuck is next?

Now, I did know the way that they would, as I understand it, the way that they would waterboard terrorist is they would put a mask on their face, towel, whatever. some sort. They would have them bound, right? And they would lean them straight back 90 degrees and count to 10. They could only count to 10 if the CIA followed the rules while dumping the water on their face. Now, apparently, they did somewhat follow the rules with KSM because KSM through his bound hands used to count with his fingers. KSM is the guy who planned 9-11. He used to count with his fingers and laugh because he knew they had to stop at 10. And then they bring you up and they let you breathe. So as it would turn out here, I wasn't going to get the 90 degree in your face, which is a

torturous 10 seconds. I was going to get something that I would argue is at least slightly better, but they're not going to take off my mask and they're going to tighten the mask so I stay drowning. And I'm in it. This is all stuff like later. I'm like, oh, that's why that sucks so bad. You know what I mean? So they lean me up and I'm like, like, Dief and me were watching it back like a few days later. And I'm just like, now I'm fucking with him. Because now I'm like, I've lasted long enough. This can end any second.

I'm good. Like, we got it. I feel like it's. Victory laps. Yeah. I'm like, I feel like it's, Tommy was a little longer than this. We've got enough. We got it.

I feel like, Miguel's got good enough content. So I'm like, I don't know what they're going to do next. We'll just roll with the punches and call it a day. So he starts giving a speech. He's like, have you ever heard the term waterboarding? And I'm sitting there shaking. I'm like, once it twice. And he goes, well, we are not going to waterboard you.

But we're going to give you. And he picks up that they were taking all the ice and shoving it in between my legs and my ass. So he picks up a big chunk of ice, walks around me. Like he was just feeling it, bro. Like walks around me, he goes, but we are going to give you a parallel experience and tosses it. Perfect shot. into my dick. Damn.

Like now I'm sitting on a chunk of ice that thing. I'm like, God damn it. Why is it? His aim's good and everything.

And the shrinkage is probably crazy. Right. The shrinkage is crazy. Yeah, yeah. You're not even like concerned about that but you're just like

I'm a little party. It's like. Right? And then he takes the buckets and he starts doing this in my face. And he's like, we're going to give you something you're not going to forget

or something like that. And I'm like, uh, these motherfuckers are going to waterboard me. He just said he was going to me a parallel experience. I'm like, what's he doing with the buckets? So they're like, and he keeps giving me a speech and he's like,

God, it was so sinister. The one guy, like, had a trailer of it. He's like, when you lied, it was like, it was like straight out of a movie. I'm like, did you practice this in the mirror? Do you have the? I definitely, yeah, I have the, hold on. I got to pull this up because it was so sinister, like how he did it. That was the, here it is.

I got it. We off now? The harder you breathe, the harder you breathe, the more your body demands oxygen. The more than your body demands oxygen, the faster your heart rate increases, the more your blood pressure increases, the more you demand faster breathing. Guess what never changes? Your access to the United States. Do you know what the capital is for the United States? He's saying, bro.

Like, I picture like Jay-Z back there, like, yo, that's flow. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you cut that up. The more you fight, the more you fight, the heart of your breed, the heart of your breed. I'm like, what the fuck? Like, how many? Like, that was the other thing that was occurring me. Like, it occurred to me the first time he opened his mouth that day.

And then as the day went on, I was like, how many times did he do this? Yeah, this is not the first time he said that. Yeah, like, I knew he had probably been around one of these. I was like once or twice. And then I was, like, rethinking him like, I feel like, he has. He got those lines pretty good. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, anyway, so that line came in between what? would be like the two waterboarding things. So he's like, all right, all right, lean his, tilt his head forward, sir, after he's like talking to me before that. And he comes up behind me, and they have my head tilted forward like this.

Now, Trevor has put a zip tie on the back of my mask so that he can tighten it like a, like a vice, like that, so that you're totally like a plastic bag over your face except it's soaked with water, right? And so he leans me down. And now it's, like, like real because again i'm like i'm gonna give up at any point here but you know how we can last but like i'm in it it's not like i'm not like at this point thinking i can't let andy break me for clout

or something i'm like actually in it and like he leans he leans me down and and and before he starts he's like you know tommy's over here he's nice and comfortable he's got a towel he's warm i bet that would feel good and trevor's been fuck with me so i'm like that that's fucking great And then he's like, all right, tilt his head forward. Leans my head forward. And I'm like this. Puts me down. He starts dumping the water for about six to eight seconds.

And immediately the water's filling up the mass. There's already, it's already soaked. So I already could barely breathe. And now there's nothing. And I'm like, you heard some of the sounds right there. I'm like, and then like Trevor's pulling me back when it ends. And I'm like, like, like this. And then bringing me back from him like,

like breathing like down but I can't really get air it's like just enough that like I'm good but it's like it's a it's a rush that's what's so weird about it it's like a rush because now you're like fuck I can take it again let's fucking go like there's no there's no thought it's like you didn't kill me you're gonna have to kill me on the next one yeah but like you're trying to also re-center yourself because you're not moving you're shaking like a little bitch and it's also content and you still know that in the back of your head yeah but you have just loud enough of a voice to be like, you're not, you're not fucking, you're not giving up right here. And so that's when Andy starts walking away to refill the water. And he's like, the hard of you breathe,

the heart of, and does the whole thing while he's refilling the water. And Trevor's fucking with me. He starts, this is the other thing. Trevor would like hold my head back and literally hold my nose and my mouse so I can't even breathe in the water and out and and like right before they come to do the second one I'm like and he pulls him about there's no breathing and then he leans me forward they dump water on me for eight seconds he pulls the vice in the back to like yank me back and what was crazy is it felt like I just kind of stayed still and was like ah fuck can't can't move can't breathe whatever but my whole body like contorted up because I was like trying to fight to breathe so I was like like shaking around like that.

And then I get to the top and you can hear like, and he's like, what's the capital of the United States? I'm like, Washington, D.C. Get it off. And like, yank it off. And immediately, you're like, you good? You good? And I was like,

and I look up and all the guys are right there, all the cameramen, and they're looking at me like it's a South Park episode. And I'm just, and I'm like, whoa, that was crazy. And I'm like, I'm not fucking dying for, this and none of them laugh except Tommy Tommy in the back goes yeah like starts cracking out because it's like holy shit that's wild and I and then I was just like I let out like oh like holy shit and then they got me up and I was just it was it was a crazy feeling you were like wow something I don't know what that is I'm going to watch that back on tape but I feel like that

went to 60% you know it definitely didn't go to 100% like they would really do it but you know I'll take 60 like that's that's pretty fucking good And they bring me back to the bucket. And they were like, dude, they were so fucking serious about it at the time. They were like, you good, you good? Like, holy shit. And everyone comes back and sets up the cameras. And they're like, yo, get his hoodie off.

So they like, I put this up on my Instagram. But like, you know, they're like checking my shoulder. Like, and then I take my hoodie off. And my cutoff is soaked. I'm like, just leave it. My cut off is completely. It's just a pool. My pants are a pool.

And so I sit down on the bucket. and we start, I start getting interviewed and Andy comes back and goes, how would you describe that? I was like, dude, that was a rush. And within about two minutes, I start to notice. How much you're shaking? I'm like, it got worse. Like, it didn't start that way when I sat down, the adrenaline was keeping me not shaking. And then once I calmed down in the seat, my body is just kind of old.

And I couldn't. And they were getting shots from the side. Yeah, the video of you were shaking in this is insane. Yeah, it was nuts. So I was like, and at the. the time I was like, you know, you couldn't appreciate all of it. But I'm answering the questions and I was like, are all these answers like really bad? And they're like, no, like these are good. I'm like, I don't know. Like, because you're not even thinking straight. And then I get off

the chair and they're like, all right, we want Tommy to come back down again. Let's get another reaction. So I go off to the side and Trevor comes up to me. And you know, I'm like, oh, look at him. Look at his face. Look at him while he's, what, that's why he's choking me. That's what he would do to me. He's not goofing around. But look, he's not looking at me. Interesting. He used to be looking at, when I didn't know this, but when you watch the tape before this,

he's looking at me, but when it got to this part, he couldn't look at me. So he comes out to me and goes, brother, that was really painful for me to do. I'm like, it didn't look fucking painful. It looked like you were into it. He's like, no, no, no. Is that just something he did or is that something they teach?

Like, don't look. Yeah. Well, no, no, no. That's like he, because again, like, we're like friends at this point. Right. You know, we had breakfast that morning. You know, like nice guy. He's friends with people I'm friends with.

And he's just like, he's like, dude, you know, that was really painful for me to do. And I bullshit it with him. But he's like, no, really. Like, that was tough. But I apparently in the interview afterwards, I was like disappointed that I broke or something. I don't remember saying anything. Like, do you, did you kind of, like, looking back to the interview, do you remember exactly? Because your memory's great, generally.

Your recall is pretty impeccable. I thought they had waterboarded me three times, not twice. Because in between the two waterboarding when he was doing this and shit. in my head it was in the moment a waterboarding. Interesting. But he wasn't actually, they weren't doing anything. Right. So they said, you only got it twice, not three times.

I said, okay, so I had that wrong. But I thought it broke on the third time. It felt pretty biblical, you know? But he was like, he was like, dude, that was, he's like, don't worry about break. He goes, everybody breaks. There's no one that doesn't break. He's like, you guys just did a remarkable job. And then after Tom was done on the buck, he's like, dude, it's amazing.

Well, you guys just did. Apparently, though, in between, psycho, Miguel, in between, like, after Tommy got done, you saw all the shit they were doing to Tommy dumping water and shit. The angles were insane. You got Andy doing all the theatrics. They're interviewing Tommy and Miguel goes up to Andy. He's like, I need more. No. I need more. That's not enough. Andy's like, dude. We could stop right now. You got enough for a documentary. He's like, no, no, no, I need more. And so when I was last in on. just the fucking bed. They're like, they're talking. Like, you can hear them while he has me sitting there when he's not talking to me. You can, like, hear them talking. They're like, oh, shit, Andy wants to waterboard him. And he's doing pretty well with this. Yeah, I guess we're going to waterboard him.

Like, gee, thanks, guys. Thanks for sticking up for me. You could have said no. Yeah, dude. You know, but we got it. Send Miguel to Guantanamo. That's what I'm saying. You can go film over there.

He sounds like he's equipped for this. I'm like, we'll send you back. You know what I mean? It's in your blood. Sorry. He should work over there. Yeah, right. He just get hired by the CIA.

Right. No, no, he could just be hired by his own people. I feel like he'd be all right. But he's from one of them. Anyway, but they, Andy and Trevor come up to us after, like, I talk with Trevor, Trevor talks with Tommy, and then they get interviewed one more time. And then they get up because we have, like, allegedly two more rounds to go for the afternoon. And Andy goes, yo, totally up to you guys.

You guys got enough. Like, and you've had an experience today. Like, this has been very legit. guys did very well you know we can't cut it right here and Tommy and I just looked at each other and we're like no fuck that we're like we're going to keep going so you guys kept going yeah we were just like you know what fuck it and dude Tommy's a savage bro what am I going to say no he's he's like ready to and he thinks at this point he only lasted three minutes on the ground so now he now he's got something to prove which wasn't true because they told me he lasted three minutes when

it was like 15 which again is a part of Which also might have been Andy being like, I'll make him go for the afternoon. Yeah. That might have been why he did that. But Tommy corrected the record in the documentary, which was good. He's like, and here they lied to me. It was actually 15 minutes upon further review.

So we go back and now they're going to do stress positions. And we get like, they're like, all right, you're ready to go? They hood us. They put us down in the chairs. And like, it wasn't, you know, I guess at this point, you just feel like they can't go harder than they just did, which ended up kind of being true. But they start putting me, they start with me now, right? And they put me down in the transit position.

And none of this is in the documentary, but Tommy and I, they would get quiet. And Tommy and I would start having funny conversations. He's like, how about those Epstein files? This is like right. This is June 12th. So it's like right after Cash Patel went on Joe Rogan. He's like, I don't know. And there's no Epstein file.

And I was like, you can never trust the fucking Metro. PCS salesman to tell you about the Epstein files. What the fuck? And he's like, but it feels like the timing's off, but when I saw it later, I was like, oh, that was so good. We should have used that. But, you know, and then Trevor, that was the one time all day. He was kind of laughing in the background, but Andy was not. And Andy comes up, he goes, all right, gentlemen, I understand that, you know, you want to joke around and have fun, but we need answers here. You know, what was the, I can't remember what the question was in the afternoon. It was maybe another math question. or something like that.

Now, before we go to the stress testing really quick, the waterboarding thing, is there a part of you in the back of your head that knows you can't drown technically? Like, the sensation is real, but like people say, oh, you can't actually drown, you can't actually die.

I thought I was going to when... Your brain tells you, in that last round, because he didn't, they don't take... When they do waterboarding, they're supposed to take the towel off and let you get air again.

I never got that. Right. So I got not as bad of an experience on the actual water because my head is forward and not back. Right. That is, in my opinion, much.

I haven't done the back one. I don't want to do the back one, but I feel like that's got to be worse. The sensation feels like it's longer. It's straight up, literally straight up rather than the wet rag that was already wet. But the aftermath, there's no reprieve. So in between the rounds, you know, he's fucking with me for 65 seconds. And it's just like not breathing.

So I will say when I did that last like, I was like. Yeah, that was like. You're done. I was like, and that's why when they pulled the mask off, I was like, I ain't dying for this shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, because your brain literally tells you you're dying. Yeah, but I don't know. I'd need to talk to it.

I'd never talk to a doctor on that since then or like a scientist or something. I'm sure they could answer this question better. But like, I felt like there's no air. Yeah. And he had it tight, dude. It wasn't, like if he stays tight. Oh, that was the other thing. I had a plan before what I thought was the third one, but it was really the second one, right?

Which was the last one. where I ended up breaking. I had a plan that like when he did it and finished the water I was going to pretend to faint to buy time.

Bad plan. Yeah, I feel like it's not the right plan. Because then the water happened and a sensation went into my head that said I'm going to die

before I hit the ground which isn't true. Wow. Right? But that's how like fucked up you are. Your brain was like I went straight up

and again I didn't realize I went straight up into the sky. Like in between after that second round before we started the third round, Dre was like, yo, look at this shit, bro. And I was like, what? He's like, bro.

Because it's not your control. It's not you in conscious brain. It's your subconscious. I just felt like a shivering little bitch still and trying to breathe. But it was like, I'm a shivering little bitch, but like I went straight up. And they said something, they said something interesting where they're like, everyone breaks in 15 minutes. Like the vast majority of people. I don't know if they said

a minutes thing, but they said everyone breaks period. Just in general. But they said, I think it was like 15 or they're like, most people it's like between 10 or something to that effect i think they might have but it's like an interesting thing where you're like yeah no i could do it i can't it's like no right right but and then if you can last it's 30 minutes an hour that was the thing when we were having dinner that night at tommy's house like the whole crew we were talking to andy about it i said to him i said i didn't realize like how experience you were with this and he's like dude but it's not like

what we did today i'm like what do you mean it's not like that he goes yeah of those things happen and yes they're worse than what you got like that's what they would do and it and it got worse like you guys didn't get 100% which we knew that but he's like it's not like six hours or seven hours it's a Tuesday you walk in there for 15 30 minutes like all right well I guess we got to torture this guy see if we get an answer and you come back 12 hours later and if he gives you an answer at that point you give him a fucking peanut butter sandwich it's just a job yeah So that part Like the continuous nature of it

Technically like isn't really what they would have to do But they just go really hard at someone And then let them sit on it for a long time And if they don't get an answer They do it again the next day Again the next day Some guys get this for weeks at a time But everybody breaks

It's a matter of if they really wanted to break someone And maybe potentially break some laws Even though they were already breaking laws To do this in the first place You know the laws that they invented They're fucking torture guidelines then yeah like I I would imagine people are going to break in 10 to 15 minutes or 20 minutes Is it torture?

See I don't even know how I answered it at the time and I don't know how I would answer it now I would probably say waterboarding is a form of torture yeah I would say the stress positions are arguably anti-constitutional yeah and when I say arguably as being general and generous i don't know if i'd call it full-blown torture i i mean i did i thought i didn't a couple days later when joe and i were recording an episode recapping it i thought i didn't break my toe but i my toe had been fractured from the stress you know which you can't i went to my uncle that weekend i was like oh fuck yeah he's like there's nothing to do it it just feels yeah so it was fine it was fine a few weeks later was it from this one no that was the last one but the stress

positions not that transit one that transit one you can last in for a while i didn't think that's that bad the other one suck like the last one we did we we both i lasted a minute tom he lasted two minutes and what was the last one the last one's just they would put you against a wall move your feet back and have you press your forehead against the concrete and all the way to your body goes into the concrete and i was like yelling tom was on the other one i was on this one right here or backs or to each other and i was like tom i think i'm checking out and so i've had enough he's like okay and then i'm like and andy's like you know the word is he's like just pissed at this point i'm like cupcake and they let me off and then Tommy lasted a little while longer because Tommy's a wrestler too and that

position like unbelievable neck strength so like you see Tommy's neck like bulging like his whole traps are bulging and everything and he held on for a while longer but before that that was the final round that was the quickest round the third round was the last long round and that was when we were talking about the Epstein files and shit and then i was feeling really good at this point because i'm like we already got enough content i'm really i don't give a fuck like i'll give up right away let's just get some funny sound bites if they're going to use it so like Andy it was spell the word what was the word we were spelling july and he's like spelled july and i'd be like

F-U-C-K-Y-O-U. And so he got pissed. And so Tommy was fucking with him a little less right now. So he puts me down first. He goes, all right, let's get the zip ties undone, get Julian down in the sear position. I mean, all right, well, the fucking sear position. The sear position is when they put you. It's before that, Christos, a few minutes, but they basically take you and put you.

I also, I should not have been boken before that. I look a lot better now. I mean, compared to Tommy, anyone's going to look a little. Yeah, I was in like a three-month bulk, so I was carrying around like 15 pounds extra fat. What are you going to do? I see myself in the mirror on any given day, and I'm like, ugh. We look a lot better now, so that's okay. But Tommy didn't do you any favors.

He should have told you like, hey, let's cover this. Look at Tommy, bro. Zero percent. That's also like the worst position you can be in. Yeah. Anyway, so what they do. do is they stick you down on your knees with your feet behind you and your the the tops of your feet are flat and you're thinking all right i'm just fucking kneeling right and then they take you and they push

you back so all the weight of your body goes right like on i don't want to hold my foot up so the fucking psychos can screenshot it but like you know what i mean but like if your big toe is like that like where it's got the little curve right there all the weight goes on the top ball of your foot and on that whatever the fuck, maybe my doctor's out there if they watch this show can help me. Goes onto that bone right there. That's what fractured. Yeah.

Right? And when he put me back into that, it was that like, yeah. Fuck you. Can we, let's roll this real quick. Because I just want to see the, this was after.

He was down there for a while. Damn. And I brought, but like right away when he broke, he was like, Julian, you haven't answered our question? And I was like,

please don't ask me August. Like in my head. Because then I got to hold out another one. Like, no, no, no. I was like, then I'm going to have to hold out another one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he said July. I was like, Jay, yo, I, J-U-L-I.

Yeah. It's like, let's get up. But they started doing that and then Andy would come. He's like, you look like you need to be pushed back farther. I was born with dislocated hips, too, so that doesn't help. Right? Like, I'm athletic, but I'm not flexible. Yeah.

Not flexible. So he's pushing me back on my flexibility. So there's like simultaneously some things. happening here and then Tommy's so flexible he's got Tommy back like that bro so Tommy's just got all the weight there but when he put I could feel the crunching on the fucking hardwood fracturing your toe I thought I was fracturing my foot I did my feet were black and blue but they were not fractured they were fine I wouldn't have been able to walk I mean this is like one of these things like I would never even think that this would be bad right like if you're

like hey torture someone this would never come up right so then Andy like comes up and starts fuck it they didn't put this in there but like we he and i have been talking about like uh i guess like training and stuff and like bodybuilding and things like that so i was like here's what i'm working on here's what i'm bulking on and everything like that so he comes up and he and he like i'm back here and he plays he pulls up my pendant and he goes ah it's a little extra weight to be holding right there you know i'm better that's not nicely and I'm like whatever like he starts like

almost like going with it like acting and then he starts grabbing little bits of fat on me and he goes I know you're boking right now but you're carrying around a little extra or something like that and I'm in the mask and I just turned to him and I'm like I can't really see

him but I'm looking at him I just start laughing like I'm gonna fucking kill you when I get out of here which I didn't but you know he's just fucking with us and then we both broke like at the same time is this worse than the waterboarding it's a totally different no it's not worse than waterboarding but it's a totally different thing and it is so fucking annoying it's an annoying searing pain no pun intended and so we both went through that they interview us again and

they're like guys we really got enough now when there's only one more thing and we're like doing it and that's when we did the cement thing it was like I lasted a minute Tommy maybe he was like three minutes on that but is that because you were kind of worn down like if you did it fresh could you go longer? Yeah, at that point I was, in my head, I was like, we had just fucked with them hard in this scene right here. I was like, I'm good. I'm good. You know, I need my forehead.

I'm on camera. Like, I'm already not too good looking. Let's not ruin it. No, come on. You look like a little Jim Morrison. So anyway, well, this see, yeah. Right. I keep getting Danny Duncan.

Yeah. That's what they keep saying. The modern Jim Morrison. And something like that. But. Whose dad was the head? So there you go. Oh, that's right.

Yeah. I see what he did there. But he could have said fucking Mick Jagger, but you didn't. All of them are their parents or CI. But anyway, so that was the whole, yeah, I, that's like the first time anyone ever said I look like someone. I'm like, all right, you're not crazy. Yeah, it's similar. I can see it.

It's similar. I mean, I bet you he couldn't go, you know, a minute and a half in the cement possession. Have you seen his content, bro? Yeah, he actually might be a hand. I'll bet he could have gone a lot longer than I did. Yeah, he's a wild boy. Yeah, he's out of his fucking mind, bro. Put him through that.

He'll probably go 14 hours. Yeah. But yeah, like, I do think, like, we were competitive with it because we're like, we got to get good content. Like, you don't let Andy break you for clout. I think a lot of people would have been able to get through a lot of it if they had that mentality. Just like, all right, you know, let's make sure we do enough here because you know it's not real. You know you can get out of it. That's where you can't simulate.

I wonder if that's difficult in its own way. though because you're like oh if I just say this I'm done whereas like if you're in an actual you know situation it's like well if I say this like will it keep going like could I will they kill me may well all right so let's play with that maybe I built a business right I started in my parents house with nothing and the only reason I exist is because I had my parents roof over my head like I literally couldn't buy socks so I had to make it or fucking be a loser for the rest of my life right but the mentality is either I get up and work today or nothing happens I could technically get up and not do anything

and get on fucking food stamps or something but I was like I don't want that so I'm gonna do I think it's like a just all right I could give up on this and not get what we need to do today or I could do the hard thing and get what we need to do today and people will actually get somewhat

of a simulation here but here is where you cannot simulate it I cannot possibly simulate having a secret whatever that is that is larger than my actual life in my possession of an end enemy combatant is trying to get out of me. Yeah.

I cannot possibly simulate that. There is nothing you could do for content to ever send. And like, again, talk to Andy about it. This is 60, 70% of what they would start with, bro. Yeah. What happens when the pliers come out? Yeah. I mean, fuck all that.

Like, they don't even, they skip tasers. They go to whatever the fucking things they use in Jurassic Park are. You know what I mean? Like, this is like children's stuff. So as bad as this sounds, you could probably last. Okay. Can we take a pre-break and then debrief on some more CIA shit? Yeah, why not?

Okay. All right, we're back in. After this experience, I'm curious what your thoughts are on enhanced interrogation. And did you talk to Boost Monti about what else could have happened or what else could have been done to you guys had, you know, like, was there an extra plan or if this was a real situation? Where else would this have gone? All right. So he had no extra plan past. that I hope not. I don't think they were like an electrocuter of balls or anything. Like I think

we did what they had planned. But again, 60, 70% of capacity of just that. Yeah. Not including the capacity beyond that, which is you add another 100% and 200%. I don't know. My answer on this probably changes over time because it's still like you process it and whatever. Of course, the age old question of, you know, there's a nuclear bomb in New York City. It's going to go off in three hours. There's one man sitting in front of you in the chair. You know he knows where it is. Would you or wouldn't? Yeah. Everyone's going to do that. Yeah. They're going to do whatever it takes. But the Constitution and laws are a strange, slippery slope with things. I struggle with this a lot on stuff. I will say, you know, I haven't had a full talk with John Kyriako about it.

Because I sent John, like, the raw footage from the airport. He's like, oh, my God, that's awful. Good on you to do it. Now you know how fucked up this is. And I was like, it worked, John. I don't know. So I've heard that sometimes the quality information can be not great. Because people want to tell you what you want to hear.

I was thinking because that, and that's why I was saying to people, you can't simulate that. Because a lot of times, you know, they get some fucking guy that they picked up in some, you know, wherever in Pakistan. They're like, oh, he think he knows somebody. And it turns out to just be like, you know, the fucking doorman. Yeah. And then four fingers later, it's like, yes, Osama is right there. And then he's not there.

I would just say whatever. You know what I mean? Like, if someone's torture me, they're like, what's your grandpa's name? I'd be like, Gerald. I would just say whatever to make a stuff. Whatever you want it to be, baby. Yeah. Because at least even if it's not that.

I know it's not that. But you guys are going to go find out, and then you're going to come back. And then I'll go through this again, but at least I have a day. That's right. That's right. So there's that part. The other part is, and I was trying to think about this, you can't truly simulate it. But my thought was if I really did have information, like for real, I feel like eventually I'd give it.

Of course you would. That's what I'm saying. But like everyone breaks, do you break with the right information? Don't tell me government secrets, because I will tell you. tell them. Yeah, like, that's the thing. It's just so... I'll tell them in this pot. I won't even get tortured. It's a strange. I'll put in the title. Like, I'm not, like, what are we talking about? Yeah. I'm not built for it. I don't, I don't know. It's a tough one. It's going to be interesting when I talk with John. He's going to come in in November, I think. And when I talk with him about it, because for people

out there, John Kyriaku is, was a very high-level CIA guy who blew the whistle on the torture stuff. And then they threw him in jail for it. And that's a whole fucked up story, what they did to him. but he was the one guy, a senior level guy behind the scenes when they said they were going to do this after 9-11, who said this is bullshit, and we should not do this. And he's not a pussy. You're talking about a dude who was a hardcore undercover spy, the dude who personally took down Abu Zubeda himself. This is a hardened motherfucker. This is not a dude that if I were on the wrong end to him, I want to be stuck in a back alley with. Like, this is a real guy. And that was his stance on it. And I have a ton of respect for that. and he paid the ultimate price. There was total bullshit what they did to him. Everything that they did to him was bullshit. But it's like, you know, would you? I don't know.

And I'm, you know, I also have bias. Like, I'm always going to like look at something the CIA does and say, we shouldn't fucking do that. Yeah, of course. And like, yeah, there's a lot. There's a laundry list of that, you know, the shit they do that's just completely against the Constitution. And this is too.

This is like one thing that I'm like, yeah, no, I don't know. But it's not, look, in a utopatarian world where like America's supposed to stand for something and we're supposed to be better than other people, no, we should not do it. Yeah. And again, like I got a small taste. What they do is significantly, significantly worse than that. And I also say that knowing that at least some of those things on that enhanced interrogation list, they definitely went beyond. Otherwise, you don't destroy those tapes. Yeah, of course.

They went well beyond that. And then, that's mentioned, there's things that you don't even necessarily, like, in this simulation, connect with. So it's like, hey, we actually got your dad. Hey, we actually got your kid. Yeah. Hey, and maybe you'll never see your kid again. Like, all of these things that are now even compounding the stress. Yeah.

It's like, you can't even comprehend that. Again, there's no simulation for that. It was so strange, though, like psychologically, because we get out of it, we finish, and then everyone high fives. And then, dude, Tommy was, watching Tommy G. work is, like, so fucking cool. Because, like, he has this, like, all Shucks Milwaukee thing. That motherfucker's ten steps ahead, everybody. He had this whole thing thought out. After, or this whole experience, he sits down and interviews each guy for, like, 45 minutes a piece with perfect questions, 60-minute style.

he and Miguel are setting up the set it's perfect he's got Trevor here then he does Andy over here and then we each did one so when Andy and I were done I was like I need a fucking coffee by the way waterboarding terrific for a cold my cold was gone afterwards oh that's nice afterwards that was another thing when I was in there and they were starting this whole thing I was struggling breathing I wanted to fucking kill Brian I was like because you know I'm like a little stuffed up so it's harder you know but Once we got to the waterboard, and I was not really thinking about that. Yeah.

I do wonder if maybe I would have had that 2% of oxygen I needed to go another round, but probably not. Yeah. Probably not. But like at this point, cold's gone. They should prescribe that. They should prescribe it. If you got mono, I want RFK to come out with that. No more tired of all.

I don't like waterboarding, but waterboarding is a terrific thing that I'm not saying. Listen to see, I killed my father. That's a good RFK, dude. They killed my father. They killed my uncle. But they know how to. Waterboard, you know. But they're like, I'm like, I need a coffee.

And he's like, I was thinking I could get something too. Like, just like that. And I'm like, did you hold any animosity? Like, no. Not literally, but like was your body a little bit like. No, my body was, I was, it was a rush. Yeah. You're just like, wow, all right.

We weren't a total pussy today. That was the thought. It was like, that was the win. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like, we didn't bitch out. Like, Tommy and me were high-fiving. How'd you sleep? And it was good.

I slept like a baby that night. But when we were done, like, I wanted the coffee. And so, again, we're, like, right off the beaten paths. We're like, civilization? No civilization. Nothing's happening here. So Andy and I, like, I look at Andy. He goes, I could use one, too.

So we walk outside. Like, this is his attitude. Like, he's just chill. This is right after finishing. Got his panty pads. He's chill. And he's like, all right, let's take a walk. I'm like, yeah, there's like some fucking flea market up here or some shit.

Like, I'm sure they got something there. So we go up and. Like, again, there's people in Milwaukee. So this is like a whole experience from me. I walk over the draw bridge. You're in civilization. You ever been to the Reading Terminal in Philly? I have a great spot.

It's like all these fucking places and it's a whole city block and you walk in and it's a giant old school food market of just like different little restaurants, different little spots to buy whole foods. So they got their own like mini Milwaukee one called like the public market that's like a, you know, half mile away. So he and I walk there, you know, my shirt. It's like dried off a little bit at this point. But I'm just looking around at all these people. I'm like, if only they knew. And I go up, I order a coffee. He's like, I think I'm going to go over here.

So I walk with him. He goes, y'all take a yellow smoothie with him. I'm like, oh, fuck you, dude. Fuck you. And then we, you know, we walk back. And then we go home to Tommy's. The whole team came over. We had dinner.

Tommy has like a beautiful, he has beautiful, like, open grass acreage behind him. And again, it's June in Milwaukee. It is it's not like snowing. So that was a W. It was like, you know, like 70 degrees. And he's got a little lake back there. And then there's a nature trail that goes around the lake into the woods. It was great.

So we had dinner. Then we all went on a walk through the trail. It was like a very nice ending to the day. But those guys were totally turned off. Like they were good. Different humans. Yeah. And they were like really, they were like really proud of the whole team.

They're like, everyone got all the footage. Like great job. Like, dude, shout out to the fucking team that captured every. Like I said, I've seen all the raws. The camera work was unreal. Like, I'll show you the raw tape of, like, what they did to Tommy and what they did to me in that middle session when you come over. When I got it, I just put it together and I, like, switched it just like life, just like this. And at the end I'm like, it's nothing to do.

They would have a moving shot close up of like Andy holding the bucket simultaneously while another guy's just getting his face. Simultaneous why a guy is getting a wide shot. And none of them were talking to each other. They just knew their job. So, like, Miguel had it set up to a tea. And I think what's really cool, and it's kind of a testament to Tommy, I don't think something like this has ever been done before. There's, you know, a 20-minute video of Tim Kennedy lying back and doing, you know,

having water dumped and then come, you know, with the towel and then coming up and being like, yeah, I can take it. Like, he's a tough motherfucker. Like, he kept doing it. But as far as, like, actually getting abducted, going through somewhat of a process, I mean, they do this all the time in the business. military and to a worse degree but like doing it in public like on YouTube kind of cool like that was something Tommy was like fuck it let's do it and I got a lot of respect for that

would you do it again no I'm good I you know 11 out of 10 wouldn't recommend come on Mark I'm retired okay call it off I had the guy I had some guys here that I'm gonna keep well we got him back you saw what oh yeah yeah when he can't hand you back oh he didn't see it coming in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Great camera work by Defe, by the way. Hell we go, dude. Defe, we played it so smooth, like, right before I got on as I put sunglasses on, because I'm like, I just, I need my eyes, like, covered before I break, because we were going to do a podcast, and I had my two buddies who I was calling Vinnie and Rocco hiding in the closet behind the curtain in, like, Balacavas and fucking, you know,

sunglasses up and everything, and they were going to come out in zip time. So I knew I had to get to it, and Defe was like, oh, yeah, no, I got to do that B-roll first. I'm like, oh, yeah, just get that out of the way. So Difa's doing the switcher and B-rolling, like us going back and forth. And then I was like, Vin, Raco, and they come, do-to-do-to-to-to-ch-ch. And, like, bust out of there. And he was like, come on. Like, he was like, you got to be fucking.

And then they didn't know how to zip time. Yeah, a little less professional of a team. Yeah, he's like, holding up a day. He's like, you dropped one. I'm like, God damn it. Giovanni, like, fucking hugged him. My buddy Giovanni was one of them. He, like, hugged him.

Got a whip. He was, like, laughing the whole time. I'm like, you don't fucking hug the guy. you grab his arm and you zip tie him. They did your best. So I'm like filling the water in the shower and carrying the bat around expecting them to do a professional job.

I trained him for like a whole five minutes right before this. I was like, now get in the closet like it's fucking Anne Frank. Don't make a sound. They wait in there for 15 minutes and then they come out and then, you know, they just didn't on a zip tie.

But it worked out. It was fine. Well, I'm going to keep my head on a swivel whenever I come into your studio. Yeah, I'm not going to do that to you, Mark. It was just payback for him. Look, you can never be too vigilant. And, uh, I mean, you're a fantastic.

Storyteller. This is a remarkable story. And the last thing I have to say is, you're a huge pussy. Thank you. Thank you. I, my mom... You tapped out 15 minutes in. I know. What a fucking loser this guy is, right? My mom started calling me a pussy at 7. It's why I'm the way I am.

I agree with her fully. We have so much in comedy and your mother. Man, you were so, such a life. How's your mom doing, by the way? You're such a loser. I can't believe this, dude. I can't believe you tapped in 15 minutes, bro. Tell your mom, I said a little. This guy's unbelievably soft. Oh, the softest guy ever, right? You know.

This guy, it's all right. We're going to have you back in a couple weeks if you make it back from Riyadh. You know, they don't treat the gays well in Riyadh. I'm worried about you. I'm not gay, dude. I promise, all right. Listen, I've seen gays that have kids too. Listen.

One time, bro. I'm just saying. All right. No, you're a fucking legend, brother. This is awesome. Thank you so much for coming through. I appreciate it. Let's do it again soon.

All right. Thank you, bro. Peace.