Camp Gagnon - Insider Reveals Secret Parties of the Mega-Rich

Episode Date: May 8, 2023

Kenneth Play sits down to describe how he orchestrates NYC's most elite parties, his polyamorous marriage, and the secrets behind his uh... unique expertise. WELCOME TO CAMP.Thanks to BlueChew and The Freeze Pipe for sponsoring today's episode!Mark Gagnon is our HostMiles McCreery is our Editor and ProducerWill Schwartz is our Post-SupervisorGabriel Reyes is our Community ManagerKostis Zacho, Gabriel Reyes, & Theodore Bukvic are our Clips Editors

My perception is someone that has never gone to a sex party. I just imagine there's like a room of 100 people that are all just like banging everywhere. And it's just like this writhing, carnal situation. I'm thinking like eyes wide shut. You know what I mean? Yes and then no. You don't necessarily will go up and go like, can I put my d'8 in your ass? This is Kenneth Play.

He's been called the world's greatest sex hacker by GQ and co-founded one of New York's most prominent sex communities. And today we're talking about what a sex party with billionaires and celebrities is actually like. how you can make any woman, you know, why he introduced his wife to her new husband and how two men can be married to the same woman at the same time. So, this topic is a little different for me, but Kenneth is super smart and explains his perspective and lifestyle in a really, really unique way. So without further ado, enjoy my conversation with Kenneth Play. Welcome to Camp.

Kenneth Play. Thank you so much for joining me, bro. I really appreciate this. I am so excited to be here today. Yeah, yeah. This is going to be fun. Yeah. So just first, can you explain what is your job? Wow, you know, it's kind of a, I joke around sometime at parties and the most, so depending if I wanted like horrify someone or like trigger someone. Horrify me. I teach men how to hit women for a living. It's the most triggering one.

Okay, that's fire. And then they go and then I'll wait for them to like feel about it. Well, then what I actually do is that, you know, when people are into impact play as they're erotic fantasy. You want to show them properly how to do it safely when they get the arousal and the pleasure out of that experience. So if I want to go shocking, I say that. And if I don't want to tell people what I do at a party on a plane sometime. Oh, yeah. So I just say I'm in education, or I'm in real estate, or I build community. But it's tough because I find myself in like the strangers crowd or room with different, like it could be a conference for a digital marketer. And

They're all like business people. And then, but I'm still kind of in, in that realm. You're an entrepreneur. Yeah. And they always interested to talk to me because of like the sex party stuff is interesting or like any sex stuff. So it gets me into the door. But I usually ask them like, you know, if I tell you what I do for a living,

either you are really offended, right, horrify or you might be interested. Yeah. And then you usually give them an opportunity to kind of like be curious. Yeah, it is polarizing. Yeah. Like you'll get people that be like, okay, I'm going to go get a drink. Yeah. Or you'll get people to be like, okay, when can I.

join you. I feel like it's very, very polarizing. But it's cool, though. So it'll be a mixture of like sex education, like teaching people how to explore their bodies. And then additionally, like just sex parties. Like you, I guess, would just host like, like, forums and like spaces where people can go and explore their sexuality without a lot of instruction or I think that's two sides to my career. I am, I'm a co-founder at Hacienda, which is a sex positive community where we host a lot of education events, sex parties to, um, sex science conference or like sex worker rights stuff. So that's a very community experience where we have members and like it could be people having brunch and orgy at the same time. And the other side

at the same time. Yeah. Brunch and Augie brunch are amazing. It's like I personally prefer it. Yeah. But you prefer it to brunch or just a regular party? I prefer brunch time orgy on Sunday rather than Saturday night because the vibe is different. Like Saturday night has like this hungry nightclub meatpacking vibe where people go like, oh, I'm like hunting. Sunday, people are kind of chill out on a hang and then it's also earlier during the days or like you still have, you still could function Monday night so you're not doing the all-nighter. Interesting. Do you get a different crowd? I mean, I know a lot of it is like community base and there's like vetting that goes into it. But I'm curious, do you get in that that hunting versus

like chilling paradigm? I'm curious if you get people when it's late at night on like a Saturday or Friday that are like almost using. the night as a way to like shield kind of what they're doing. Whereas in the daytime, I feel like you get people that are much more open and kind of, I guess, free in the experience. Is that fair? I think people talk more or hang out more at daytime events and kind of like brunch is also like people are sitting down and eating. Although for a long time now at Hacienda, I used to like I was very determined to provide a meal, like a pauper like gourmet meal at like three or four o'clock because nobody want to eat a big dinner before they go to a sex party,

and everybody's starving by that time. And what we realized over the years at Hacienda, that just having a bunch of casual sex, like with a bunch of stranger, eventually becomes kind of lonely and sketchy. And the only way to combat of just having purely casual experience is to give people a sense of belonging. And belonging is different than being, like, fitting in and clicking, because, you know, fitting in is that you have to look a certain way, you have to do a subsisting, to something and belonging is that where you could express your sexuality freely and find

people into it. So the belonging piece requires us to kind of like slow down, stop hunting, eat and connect with people. So we decided like really cook like cooking for 200 people at a sex party is a, it's a very interesting experience, especially they have been fucking all night and they're waiting, eat your food and you're about to serve. It's kind of a cool tribal experience that you see people like really, hungry after event and just thirsty, but in a good way.

200 people? Yeah, 200 people. Okay, can you explain just like this weekend? Is there a sex party happening? It happens quite often, like maybe every other weekend. Could you just take me through like A to Z? How does it happen? What are the details of like an elite New York City sex party?

Well, Hacienda has a long history. So we've been, we've been, it's been 12 years, actually. So it's a long time. And we have made plenty of mistakes over the years. years to kind of engineer a experience where you both have, it's like, what it comes down to is about responsible hedonism. So you have to have both. So it could easily turn into a drug then.

And like when it's too wild, you have to have a level of responsibility. So we actually put a lot of effort into educating people, getting people only allowed to be member when another member is vouching for them. So there's like old school rule. Like no, you don't, you don't fuck over your best friend's system. kind of thing, right? So you have to build that social pain if you fuck someone over. So like what we learn is that's the best way to do it. Also, you have to get people practicing consent. It's different than preaching consent because most people don't know how to. Right. So if you go

to a typical nightclub, you sort of have this like culture on how people chat up each other, right? But when you transition to a place where you're out on nightlife, but sex is possible and available and is not a taboo thing to do. How do you learn to negotiate with a stranger or a friend's friend into from hello to fuck it? That's interesting. Yeah, the nightclub setting, there's an implicit scarcity of sex. Yeah. Like, you go to a nightclub and there's, you know, if there's 100 people there, there's 70 dudes and there's 30 women.

And, you know, maybe 10 or 15 of them might be your specific taste in terms of like what you find attractive. And so now you have all these guys going for like four women. Yeah. And they're all trying to flirt with these same four women. and there's like an intensity and a scarcity to that thing. Whereas I guess at a sex party, all of a sudden the scarcity is gone in a certain way. In a certain way, also like to engineer a really good play party, you kind of want each guest to,

you think they're going to be at least attracted to three people at the party. So, I mean, it's harder when it scales up to get that. But when we used to do like more smaller group, their engineering is about like having the right ratios. So if every person you think at least they're going to be attracted to three people, then is a great party. Also, there's no sense of like, you're not hoarding, right? You're going there, like, this is mine or yours, although you still have to deal with, like, relationship rules and boundary and et cetera.

But most people feel like there's enough to eat. But if the vibe sometimes it goes to the same, like, every nightclub when the club is about to close and, like, they didn't find their parties or it gets more desperate. Yeah. So we're trying to eliminate some of those, like, predictable pitfall. But also having the right gender ratio usually helps. a lot or sexual orientation ratio at a party. So people are attracted to enough people at the party. But it's also tricky because you cannot like, you know, the idea of being inclusive is like having

having everybody in a room, right? But at the same time, if you have a bunch of gay men who only want to have sex with men and there's not enough gay men in the crowd or other men who wants to have sex or other men, then it's not a great party for them. So how do you organize the ratio? What is the strategy that goes into it? Let's say you have like a thousand people that you're trying to curate this part party, what are you trying to balance?

I think having different types of events really important and having different producer because the party is as good as the producer's crowd. So sometime we will have like Zachary Zane, who's a great sex writer, he does a bi-slaught party. So like bi-boy party. So that's his crowd. What is that? What is that?

A boy. So boys who are into both gender, both sex. And what would be the ratio with that party? Is it? Well, there'll be, it actually be like, 70% men, 30% of women in that ratio. Of the 70% of men, almost all of them abye. Got it. So then that party is more fun, but the crowd usually follow the producer.

And sometimes we have other parties like queer only. It's a queer party focus. And then here's another party, a different age group. So in some parties, just everybody. But you kind of have to cater to a quarter. crowd. And then instead of having like one producer, we just kind of fine producer with different communities to serve a wider community at the same time having a fun party. So it's a tricky balance. Being inclusive enough, right? And being fun enough is always a thing. So then your parties

that you produce. What is that typically, what is the ratio there and what are the angles? And who are you trying to serve? Well, I don't run as, I don't produce a party anymore personally. I've been doing it for so many years. So we have a great team doing it. So I don't want to take their credit. But back in the day, or currently the system that we created over time, we build up this massive member list now. So we kind of always sell out really quickly for parties. But what I have found is that if you add a party when there's 70% veterans and 30% newbie is pretty good. Because if you have a bunch of newbie, they don't know what to do. Like they go like, do I like, when do I take my shirt off?

When do I have sex? So you kind of have to have an established kind of culture. ritual enough and enough people who are comfortable enough that they would just start. And so I think that is a really good strategy. Also, we do a lot of Burning Man culture stuff. So it's a lot of Dean party as well. So like people get to dress up as whatever team that we pick that day. Have you been a party? Yeah, I've been three times. Oh, cool. Okay. I went for the first time last year. Yeah. So you know that coach and I loved. Yeah. I had so much fun. I'm going back this year. It was like, so I hate to be the guy that was like it was awesome and like transformative. But

genuinely, I went and just had so much fun. Yeah, we borrow a lot from the Burning Man culture because it's about, you know, those 10 principle and how to live in a completely different paradigm, right? So when people go to play parties, if they allow themselves to experience where the world rules are different, because expressing your sexual desire and feeling comfortable that you will not be rejected for what you want is a pretty universal feeling. So how do we make that very comfortable for people to ask and also make it very comfortable? for people to say yes and no and yes and no without the consequences.

So sometimes when you feel like you say no to someone, they'd be annoying or some level of consequences. So we're really trying to coach people is that you, in this environment, you will treat yes and no with no consequences either way how people do it. And you could revoke it at any time. So you could open and ab out at any time. You could be in middle of anal and just say, no, no, thanks. I'm out.

And then no one will give, you know, too shit about it. Yeah. Well, hopefully there's no shits. Okay. So hypothetically, let's just go through this experience with me. Okay. So I got married when I was 23 years old. I'm still married to my wife.

I've only been with one woman. So hypothetically, your entire life. My entire life. Wow. So let's say I came to you and I was like, okay, Kenneth, I want to go to a sex party. Uh-huh. What would you do? Like, what would be my journey into that experience?

And can you, like, break it down? Like, you would invite me? Would I sign up for a list? Like, take me through all the details. For Hasienda specifically. So for the first thing I would ask you as a person is like, you know, what is, you your current relationship agreement because we don't want to create any drama on that end. Like that is your responsibility, your business.

Yeah. My current relationship agreement is that I'm not allowed to go to a sex party. Now, hypothetically, let's say, let's say the agreement was, yeah, I'm allowed to go and I'm allowed to do anything I want. Also, you could be in a state of like uncertainty too. Like, my partner and I are kind of afraid and counter curious. It would be a different conversation. Or if she's a hell no, then it's a different conversation. So let's assume it's a hell no. Then I go like, you know, I think you should work that out among yourself before we're entertaining this conversation. That's where it starts. Okay.

But if you guys are considering, then I'm more likely to invite someone to a social event where it's not like orgy heavy. Okay. So what is that? We do a lot of social events too where it just mingles and talk as a date night. So it's more like you could make out, you could feel each other up or you could just like watch other people, but it's not full on sex. So we do a lot of social for newbies to kind of get used to the. community and get used to people. So there's levels of events. Interesting. And if you are, if you are both like a yes, like we kind of want to see what this experience is like,

then the next question is that do you want to go along or you want to come together? I see. Okay. So hypothetically, let's say there's a single person. Let's say I'm single. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to go alone. I've gone to the first mixer social event where it's just kind of like making out, whatever. And then you would basically like vet me and be like, okay, you seem like you are in an emotional state and in a social state where you could go to an actual event. Well, if we were friends, then I'd be the person who's vouching for you. If I don't know you, right, and I don't feel comfortable vouching for you because vouching is like really vouching because if they get kicked out, you get kicked out.

Oh, wow. So your reputation is on the line for every person you voucher. You vouch for. Yeah. And we do it. Like, you know, we no hesitation because in order for the system to have integrity, that has to be the role. Of course. So if I vouch for you, then we, I, like, I have enough of a personal experience of you to kind of make that judgment that you'll be.

respectful, you care about boundary, you're in it for the right reason. If I don't know you, then I would invite you to a social event where you have to force to make friends that they will vouch for you. Ah, I see. So you're like, okay, I don't feel comfortable putting my name in the line because I don't know you well enough. But maybe you could meet someone that knows you well enough that connects with you, then they would vouch for you. And also they, we want people to invest in relationship, not in, what I mean by relationship is more about connections or people will trust you. So you have to build trust. And I can't like, and it's not. And it's not. freely earned. Like, it has to be earned.

So over time. Over time. Over time. Yeah. Multiple social events that are non-sexual or not inherently fully sexual. Yeah. And then, okay, so let's say I've gone through that process. I'm a single guy. I've now made friends in the community. I'm friends with you. I'm friends with three other people. I went to a social event. It was great. Now someone vouches for me. Then what? Then you are, then we, you apply for membership. We look through your stuff. And then if you are having

the right attitude about everything, then you're invited to the first party where you are required to go to orientation. So we like has a, so we have a very clear consent policy, how to practice it. And for first timer, they have to come to your orientation for our, which is, you know, it's not a lecture for our, like we go over everything on, on web pages and other content already. But you come and you try, you practice it. Like, practice saying yes, practicing, no, like different social game like share a desire so you are way more uh you are way more comfortable in sort of the social dance at a sex party so could we practice now so how would you do it like let's say i just this is orientation i just sat down yeah and i'm like okay i'm here who do i have sex with well so the first thing

we we teach you is the basic rule is at so this is very it's a little tricky topic because every sex community have a different set of rules so when i say this is what we believe in, it's not like the universal one. Like people could create any like agreement or or policy they want. But at Hacienda is, you know, ask before you touch. So you have to get a verbal confirmation from this person that is okay. But there's also different stages of flirting, right? So you don't necessarily will go up and go like, can I put my dick in your asshole? Like it is a request, right? But maybe, well, a little too much, a little forward. So, but we do go over like literally how to ask for what you want.

So you do, we teach people how to negotiate is really key because there's a, there is, I think this is pretty universal. We don't want to explicitly ask for what we want because we want it to be open-ended. So there's more possibility in our mind. And for some people, they feel like if they ask, they will kill the opportunity. So they want like one thing led to another, right? But that doesn't really work well in a like sex party situation. And I frankly, I think having the ability to negotiate will eliminate a lot of pitfall.

Like even if it's consensual, it still could be regrettable if you don't negotiate well. Okay. So what would be an example of a good negotiation? So just say if you are flirting with someone, right, you could start asking like, you know, your hair looks beautiful today and you're just chatting up. I'm brand new to the party. My name is Mark. I do this podcast. And like, you know, how long you've been in community, you guys are talking.

and then you feel a little flirty vibe. And you go like, oh, your dress looks beautiful. Like, you know, can I touch it? So you do some micro ass. The key is when people, you ask someone for something, you don't immediately go from, like, touching her dress or a costume into picking, you know, putting your finger in an asshole. So the goal is that if you, the goal is sometimes is that you still want to go for your second ass,

like an escalation, right? And just say you are like touching and is viving. And that person says, yes, you have like a first level agreement established. And then you go like, hey, would you like, yeah, do you want to go to the other room and make out or whatever the case may be? Or, oh, your breast looks really beautiful today. Can I touch it? And people are really, like people went to a sex party because they want to have sex. So it's not weird that you're asking for.

Yeah. Or you could, you know, or we teach people, it's okay to not know, right? but also have some clear expectation on what you're trying to explore. So what would you like to do today? So we really encourage people to be as explicit as possible about their request and desire. But ultimately, what makes a culture work is that at any time, it's just like the dirty day money back guarantee, but you have to honor it. So if any time, no questions asked, you get your money back has to be the rule. So just say if you opt into something and you don't really feel like it, you could politely and gracefully and go like, oh, that was great.

Thank you. I'm good now. And then you leave and they won't harass you. And that is what it is. Yeah. And it's okay to feel rejected because we don't guarantee no rejection, right? And rejection is not necessarily bad. It feels bad sometime.

But you will have some noes and your goal is to find the yeses and get if it's a no, you want to get to the no faster instead of like wasting a bunch of time. Yeah. That's actually a good metric in life almost. Like get to the nose quickly, just in anything. Because the soon you're getting nose, the faster you can get to yeses. Not only in sex, but in like career stuff. and opportunities and business.

Like you want to find business deals where people are like, eh, not for us. And then you don't have to waste time. You go, great, I can go and find a business partner that wants to work with me or whatever. Yeah, and we really, you know, we discourage people from, like,

if they're uncertain, just say no for now. Like, no, thank you. Because if we do want a higher level of wantedness in the situation. But, you know, one of my favorite consent model that I use and I put in the book is from my colleague, Dr. Jana. and it's in this X-crit where you're like level of wantonness

and did you signal yes or you signal no. And in any human decision is you're not always like 100% yes, right? You could be in the middle, I kind of want it, but I'm not really sure. But the different in their communication end is that what did you actually signal? So we discourage from mixed signal. So you don't say maybe I'm not sure you go like either yes or no and clear. Right. Right. And you could be anywhere in that spectrum where you like definitely don't want it, right? I really, really want it. But sometimes you would still go to work when you really don't feel like it. But we don't want that experience at a sex party. Yeah, that's also as important, I feel like as like affirmative request is an affirmative yes or no. And I know like obviously guys complain about this with women all the time. I'm sure it happens in every direction. But it'll be like, oh, this girl was like saying yes. And so we kissed. And then she freaked out and like ran away and called me a creep. And it's like, but you said yes, kind of.

And so I took that as a yes, but you actually meant no, but you didn't want to say it. So you kind of have to teach not only how to approach someone in an affirmative way, but also teaching how to reject someone in an affirmative way. Yeah, but you could do it gracefully with respect. And the whole idea is sometimes like, you know, it's tricky because the other side of, the dark side of what I do is like the pickup artist stuff, right? And the idea is to manipulate a situation using like sales tactic to kind of put you in a psychological trap, then you might make a decision that you might regret later, right? So there

ideas that we don't want buyer remorse. So you are like showing the fine print and large print. Right. And we want to discourage any, you know, action that you don't want to do. Yeah, that's really tricky. Like a lot of like pickup artist stuff, like if anyone's not familiar with that term, it's suspectively like, okay, I'm going to say exactly what I need to say in the right order in order to like kind of coerce this person to sleeping with me, whether they want to or not if I'm able to like psychologically set up the situation to where they say yes. Yeah. Which also isn't what you want.

Like I think everyone wants to feel accepted and wanted in a sexual way, in a romantic way. And by setting up this framework, you're not actually getting accepted. You are kind of being coercive in some cases. Yeah. You don't want to, you know, being manipulative, it just game the situation. But I actually found that if you not intentionally like lower. you just, I think lowering the by remorse is actually more useful, right, in a long-term sexual relationship, right? Because waiting is such like in post control for guys trying to hook up

immediately or feel like they're losing their chances or even when they're like sex thing people. It's like they want to have a sense of guarantee so they won't get rejected later or they don't feel like a sucker buying someone dinner. So it's really important to teach people that is in, at least this is my philosophy, is better that they don't feel manipulated, that you sold them like a used car. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're just fully honest. You're like, hey, here's what my expectations are.

Here's what you're getting. And this is what I want from the exchange and being completely open about it versus like trying to shade things. Even if you feel like they said yes, but you feel a level of hesitation, I go like, you know, like thank you for saying yes, but I really don't feel like it's like really 100% for you yet. So maybe, you know, maybe you're just hang out and take some time if or like, hey, if you feel more like it later, come back and check in with me. So you have another layer of people having time

to evaluate and make that decision. I feel like that requires a lot of confidence and maturity, though. Like if you're someone that is so, like looking at a sexual exchange with so much scarcity and someone says yes, but it doesn't feel enthusiastic, I think it does require, especially for men, a certain amount of confidence to be like, eh, let's circle back to this. But that is the better future for everyone in order for, and this is my view. And it's really hard, right? Right now, men are not doing well like straight men are not doing well they're not having sex they really struggle with this whole process so they have this scarcity mentality that they feel like if they don't get their meal right now they're gonna

starve yeah right whereas women I think just in the current social landscape don't have that same level of scarcity at least from my perspective they have scarcity for the up different they have different scarcity they could get the sex but the sex wouldn't be good right so there the scarcity is where is the good sex or where the good men is at so I do think in a world where where both party are beyond satisfied, then it's a lot easier for them to get what they want. Like, a lot of men will have a lot more sex.

If their restaurant is good, like, you will have a line. But the problem is that if they don't spend time developing their sex skill, then you always have to hunt because, like, there's no line for you if it's not good, if you're good. So making that investment to be good in bed is so useful, especially partner sex is like partner sex for women, good partner sex is so scarce.

Like, it's just not enough in the market. Yeah. And just really quick on the sex party thing, my perception is someone that has never gone to a sex party is it's like, okay, so let's say you get vetted in and then you show up and you're kind of flirting. I just imagine there's like a room of 100 people that are all just like banging everywhere. And it's just like this writhing, like carnal situation. Like I'm thinking like eyes wide shut.

You know what I mean? Can you, are there something like that? Can you just spell that? Yeah, what described the party thing? Because, again, I have no perception of what this could be. You kind of do because you went to Burning Man, right? So you've seen people just walk around Topless like there's no thing. So there's like this free expression of sexuality and it's safe.

So at Burning Man, you have your tits out, it's not like people are like, you know, like we look. But it's not like a place where you feel, oh, I need to cover up, right? So there's that aspect of it. And also in order to engineer a good sex party is actually more important to make the party good. So we really do a good burner party, right, that the sex is optional and available. Just like there's food, you could eat it or not eat it, but the party has to be fun. So we have different areas where people are social, people are having a drink, people are hanging out, you know, by the hot tub or like they're just dancing. Is that a separate room?

Yeah, we have multiple. In order to host 200 people, there's like different rooms and different areas that people could dance, be social, spank each other to having a massive orgy, to have a smaller room. So is it frowned upon if you were just to go and then be like, actually, I'm not really feeling it tonight. And I'm just going to kind of have a couple drinks and eat and just talk to some people. No, you are poor by doing what you feel like doing. So no pressure to playing. Also, I actually encourage a lot of couple who have never been to a play party, not playing. That first party is a smart strategy to see how you feel because you could always have it later.

And then talk about it when you go home, you know, and talk about what came up for you is more it's a better learning experience. And it's tough because we don't have that much control over what we find of browsing and turn us on. You kind of have to like, it's like porn. You kind of know when you see it. Right. You sort of need exposure. You need exposure.

Yeah. Oh. It's like, I didn't know that was hot. And that's kind of weird, but hot. Yeah. So sometimes I really bring couples, it creates intimacy against them to really talk about their desire because otherwise, like, you don't. And you're not allowed to, right? Most of the time, like, when you have an established relationship,

looking elsewhere as far on upon on. So it is a different, it's a different experience, you know? Yeah. And then as far as like the actual details of like showing up, like are there a lot of, in terms of the crowd? Because in my mind also, I'm like, I'm sure you probably get like single dudes that, I don't know, this is my assumption.

You might get single dudes that don't have a lot of sexual options. And they're like, okay, I'll become a member and then I'll be able to bang all the time. And I might not be a guy that takes care of my body. And I might be a little overweight. And this is just my avenue to like getting a lot of like free, easy sex. And so how do you like, I guess it's that vouching system. But like how do you make sure that everyone there is like desirable, if that makes sense?

And also, yeah, I guess like how do you vet that you're getting like the right people? Is it all through the vouching system? Is it through specific invites to be like, oh, we need this class of attractiveness? Like how do you get rid of not attractive people? Like how does that work? So we do not judge people on looks. Okay. So that is one of part of what makes Hacienda special in my view.

So we have a very diverse crowd when it comes to people, like all sorts of people. But what we have in common is we're here to celebrate sex. And it's a final sense of belonging without being slutty and being curious about sex and like having social sexual experience. But it's also a divide people bring, right? So what you're describing is like, this in-sale creepy guy who you want to prevent from having the party. But if you don't do the social part and make friends, right, then no one would vouch for you.

So it kind of eliminate all the people who will not make friends because you're the guy who people don't want a party, right? So you have to kind of be the person that people want you at the party first. Their surprising thing is way more women than it's so hard to find good guys to come to the party than women. Yeah. So. What is that?

What do you think that's about? You know, every bro, like, I'm going to have a threesome or like, I'm going to go to or G. But when it really gets down to it, it's intimidating to, you know, they talk a lot of shit until it actually happened, right? To fuck in front of a bunch of stranger is still a thing. So I believe, so it's a common fantasy. But when it actually come to the party is a different story. And you think men get more intimidated than women do in that regard? different, they're intimidated differently because, I mean, that's why, and this might be a gross

generalization, not easier, but when a man's arousal has so much to do with, like, if his erections, like, can they stay hard, right? So there's a different level of performance anxiety when it comes to men, but men are really clear, like, if they are having erection or not having erection. So there's that aspect of it, and I love coaching that topic, but when it comes to women, is different. Like, they're afraid that, like, their performance anxiety is that, you're, I'm going to take too long, I'm going to come, or I'd be self-conscious. I think universally people will go through that.

But it's still so surprising to me that is, like, way more women at the party always. But we are, like, always on the hunt for good guys, right? In some way, it's sort of like the old school gentleman culture when you have, like, a gentleman group where we kind of hold other men accountable and behave in a more civil manner. So we just have our own culture. So we really try to have among the men to kind of like have a sort of a way to educate and train other men because you're not you don't have to be thirsty here. Really like it's so abundant. Right. So you don't have to hunt the same way that you would think you need to do in order to be successful. And so do you find men kind of like police

their own like masculine culture amongst each other at these parties where they're like That's what we really try so hard to do because sometime I work with a lot of men. I coach a lot of men and there is this whole idea of this toxic masculinity, right? And definitely there's definitely assholes out there that like, you know, that cannot be reformed in any way or never wants to. Right. But I do believe there's tons of guys out there who really care about their partner's pleasure who don't want it, want to be respectful, don't want to harm anyone and don't want to be a shitty human at all. But sometimes they just don't know how. to behave in this particular setting.

So we really try to educate people, even when they make mistakes like, okay, it's okay, it's your first time, but this made this person uncomfortable or whatever, and then you go like, why don't you do it this way? So it's not just banning. It's like we try to educate more than like when you try to educate someone, but if they're defensive, they're not open to it, then that's the wrong character, right? But we approach it as someone who's not always intentionally doing something malicious. their intent and obviously it depends on the level of violation but we really want to educate more than

just blacklisting people right so someone is like you know at like a level two phase they're like making out with a girl and then they get like too touchy and she goes oh i'm gonna leave then that's where you're coming and be like oh you were actually a little too touchy in that situation maybe try this different way yeah or ask like you know if you want to escalate you know check in it might be a good idea you know and also it's also saying thank you when someone wants to exit Rather than like, fuck you, why are you leaving, you know? Just being grateful for the experience. For that person setting a boundary, right?

And respecting that boundary because we know how hard is actually saying no to people in general, right? And some, like, depending on your level of disagreeableness in your personality trade. So some, and a lot of people are not so comfortable saying no. So we want to create an environment that is as comfortable as we could make it about stating yes and no. And being accepted or rejected is part of the experience. but it's also most of the time it will work out. Because there's abundance of people available. Right.

So at your events that you would do back in the day, and at Haseenda, it's Haseenda, right? So at Haseenda now, what is the policy as far as like testing, STDs, condoms, like, how does that work? So we have a safer sex protocol. We always have safer sex apply at the party, like gloves, condoms, loop, pads, like everything that you would need for hygiene and barrier. protection standpoint. And as far as your sexual health status, we expect the members to know and people are encouraged and trained to have those dialogue. Just go like, when was the last time you got tested? What is your current status? And then you are responsible stating your boundary or

your requirement when it comes to your sexual health. So here's all those sexual health protocol that you could opt into. But it is your responsibility to ask if you go like, hey, I really don't feel comfortable having sex with someone who have XYZ, it is really way more, it's safer for you to be the one who's asking than waiting for other people to disclose. Got it. So while you're in sort of like that, I feel like that would, in my perspective, that would mess up the vibe. Like if you're making out with some girl and then a sudden you're like, are you clean? Like, you know what I mean? Like, so how would you bring that up? Like, if you're in a sex party one-on-one with someone. We want people to intentionally kill the vibe for

those, not kill the vibe, but it's okay to be awkward and kill the vibe because the price of not killing the vibe is actually too high in my view. Right. So you should checking is good. So it's actually a little bit of impulse control and a little bit of like you are doing things that might lower your chances for you to have a safer time. What would you say if you were hooking up someone and you're like making out, how would you bring that up? How would I bring that up personally? Yeah. I would just say, hey, the last time I got tested is XYZ. What was yours? That's it. I disclosed my and then I ask. Got it.

So we train people to do that. So they have practice saying that and then is an option and expect it. And some people are more risk, like their risk tolerance is higher and lower. So we don't, so that's why it's really hard to preach. There's only one standard on how to practice that. If you are comfortable with that level of risk, then it's up to you. But you should know your level of your risk tolerance and what is your requirement. So you could communicate that clearly with another person.

Got it. And that doesn't happen in the real world. except like when you have a culture, but in the long run, it really works out a lot better that you could have a lot more sex, much safer in order to do that. So you would ask about testing status

and then you'd be like, do you want me to use a condom or something? And then they would say yes or no. And then you could operate with or without one if you wanted to. Yeah. So you always just say, you know, you're stating your boundary

and it's really important to get clear on what you are comfortable with and what you're willing to opt into. So we make people think, right? So if I was going to invite you a party, I would go like, hey, what is your sexual help status, you know, and what are you comfortable with? I would talk to you like, you know, and you should think about it before you play with someone. Right. Because it's a big concern for a lot of people who go to sex parties.

Yeah, I feel like most people just in the regular world don't really think about that. They're just like, I got tested in college once and I think I'm fine and I just don't want to hook up with anyone with diseases. Like that's what most people would I feel like. Yeah, but they wrote the dice that way, right? And some people are more comfortable rolling the dice. So it depends on the person, but we always tell people to respect your risk tolerance. Yeah. Have you heard of this term bug hunter?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you explain what that is? If my memory serves me is back in their 80s when A's is full blown, right? And the idea if I haven't, like, my friends are dying. If I catch it, then I have to worry about getting it. So it's like if I got it, then I don't have to worry about their idea of getting it is a thing for. It is a behavior that happened when people are intentionally trying to get STI so they feel closer, potentially, or eliminate some anxiety.

I'm not recommending this. I'm just describing someone who might have that desire. Does that still happen, really? It's not really like an accepted thing within like the sex positive community, you don't think. Also, right now in 2023, there's not any really major STI that is so like life ultimate. that people die or have like severe symptom all the time and also has to do with your genetic cards right like people who suffer and have to deal with herpes some people have like one outbreak their whole life and some people have outbreak every weekend so like you kind of dealt with those

cards too and is is different like there is level of risk that you could engage in depend on the type of sex so you could always have a sex with condom on it does not guarantee everything but it create, you know, and it, and also is how good you are sticking with your safer sex protocol. So on the education side, how good are you sticking or having those conversation with people? So if you are really like low risk tolerance, right? Like, I don't want anything happen to you. Then it's definitely your responsibility to stay everything. But if you don't care about shit, then you go free to roll the dice.

Right. Yeah. So not everybody at a party will always have those conversation, but I think it's extremely important for the people who really worry about it to have it. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Now, have you ever had famous people or like really well-known people go to parties? Yeah. And obviously I cannot share.

Of course, of course. But like, how does that work if everyone walks in, they go, oh, that famous guy or girls here? Like, is there a different protocol for them? How does it, or is it just the same kind of rules? It depends. I think it really depends. Would they ever wear like a mask? Like, this again, is my eyes wide shut version?

Yeah, there's different organization or party organizer over the world. So, but unfortunately, sometime, like, they're higher the status, they're more transactional and more boring the sex party. Oh, really? So if you have a party that is mostly, like, funded by a bunch of rich guy, then you will end up having that kind of vibe, right? Like, they're there. Even if it's not purely sex work transaction, is still like, like, it's not as fun as a people who are actually just down to fuck. interesting because they want to fuck you right for just a fucking bit oh that's so funny because in my mind everyone's dream is like okay show up with the sex party and there's like models and actresses

and famous people and there's rich guys and blah blah blah in your experience those can sometimes be not as fun also when it's too pretty is not fun really then it becomes it becomes like you're just prancing around to look good like this different than people who like dude like embody the sex and enjoying the sex is very different than trying to look good So status does not like helps in obviously status is great in many levels in life. But at a sex party is kind of really equalizing. But it's because it's kind of hard to be a dick when your dick is out, you know? So it's very equalizing when you're just dealing with this aspect of your humanity, right?

And so it's more important than how you treat people, like give you a kind, right? You are good in a social situation and your sex is pleasurable. will be value in this particular environment. Oh, interesting. So it equalizes all the other like social benefits in real life, which is like attractiveness, wealth, all those things. But once you're in this new arena, if you're not a generous lover or you're being creepy, whatever,

you, regardless of all those other status indicators, those things will go away. Yeah, all they still, it doesn't, it still has its benefit, right? Like I don't want to eliminate like completely eliminate it. But the issue is for some people, if your bedroom game is lacking. And it does not matter how much all the other stuff. Like you could be Jeff Bezo, right?

It's not like he want to outsource the sex to another person. He wants to be one doing it. And no matter how good he is at running his empire, it does not translate to the bedroom. Interesting. So it doesn't matter you're Gordon Ramsey in the kitchen, right? Like the bedroom is a very specific place. Yeah, you got to be Gordon Ramsey in the bedroom.

Yeah. Yeah. So you have to, and it's so valuable. Like, I look at 2023 as, you know, as equality continue to change and more women are making more money and just in the expertise they're beating our ass, right? Like the growth of that. Then less women would seek out just for like financial support or protection. So the only thing that is still left valuable is great partner sex that you treat people with kindness, right? And that skill will be highly priced in the marketplace the way I see it as we move forward. Interesting.

Yeah. As women are more liberated. They could buy their own house, right? They could drive their own car. They could afford their own bodyguard and whatever the case may be. But if you don't have that skill, right? And, you know, you are way above the line when she cannot have that experience by herself. she cannot have it with anyone else and she could have it with you then it really classed you in a different box yeah is that regardless of anything else anything else yeah and also like you shouldn't be a like complete out of shape broke person too i'm not saying that those things are not important but like we undervalue sex skill that way yeah yeah i guess back in the day i wonder would you agree with this idea that like men were able to get away with more mediocre sex because women relied on men more and so they were just able to be like okay i'm just going to like bang

you, I'll come real quick. It doesn't matter because you got to stick around for, you know, money, house, car, all the other stuff. Yeah. And then so because of that power dynamic will continue to shift. Right. Then really great partner sex is where is at. Yeah, it's interesting. Okay. And so how do like drugs play into this also? Because in my mind, I'm like, okay, you got to be on Viagra. Like, you got to be taken like male performance enhancing things. There's probably people that are drinking like people might be too drunk i'm sure people are doing like molly and other like psychedelic drugs like enhance the experience is there a clear policy as far as like drug use and how that's used no open drug use more sober more fun we're not here to sell you alcohol like like

if you are grossly intoxicated as a red flag and you get like we might like tell you to skip a couple party if you get grossly intoxicated oh really yeah so we do not encourage any gross intoxication if you're too high too drunk too sleepy we send your ass home if you're you're too intoxicated, we'll put you in a, like, a waiting room till you're sober and nothing, send your ass home. For men and for women. For anybody. Wow.

It does not matter because we want, like, we want to create an environment where we reduce harm as much as possible. And it's still very difficult because in any institution, like, if you know, financial institution, there'd be financial crime, right? Yeah. If you in a sex situation, they will be, like, foul play or like, so we're trying to lower and lower that as much as possible and deal with it as it comes up. But it's more about engineering a good time.

And ironically, it's actually about being overly, like, have maximum disclosure, clarity, communication, embrace some awkwardness in order to actually have a good time. Yeah. So, you know, it's like one of those things that people get into a marriage, right, without signing any prenup because of the day in the romance phase. We want to eliminate the romance bit. We're kind of like pre-numping. It's a good idea. Interesting. Yeah.

You're like, okay, let's get all the paperwork done. Everyone's going to be on the same page. This is what everyone's getting into. Like, drugs, alcohol, like try to mitigate that as much as possible. Have a build and exit strategy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Be as cogent as possible with this experience so that you can get the most out of it for whatever you want. We even have like very clear policy.

If you have a call, we refund your money. Like, we don't want you to come if you have a cold. Like, that's not good for us. Like, you know what I mean? But other, if you're running a normal club, you go like, I don't care. You bought the ticket. Right. So we do stuff that is not at our profit interest for,

for the party. And we are very fortunate because we do the party as a way to serve the community. It's not a profit-driven thing, it's just a thing that we really enjoy doing. And we kind of figure out a business model that kind of work to serve the community, but as far as running the party concern,

profit is definitely not above anything else. Like, it's people first when it comes to that. Yeah. And I know that like with, I'm curious, like with 200 people, how many like, I don't even know the term would be, but like organizers, like, how many people are there that are not participating that are sort of like supervising, making sure everything's safe, and then handling those people that'll be too drunk or, you know, too aggressive, things like that? How many people? We have a huge

team, you know, we have, like, trained staff and volunteers, and we train our volunteers because we call it guardians who kind of like around wearing a light up arm band, so you could clearly see that person is a guardian. And the guardians does to serve any, like, dispute or it's not like a bouncer who's trying to hunt you down. It's not the vibe we want. But anytime you feel uncomfortable or you need someone to talk to or you want to negotiate something, there's someone to help you and monitor. So there is, there's guardians everywhere.

And then there's holes, there's cleaning crew. There's people who just, like we spend a lot of time trying to get the hygiene right, like who change the sheets and stuff like that. So I'm a nerd. So I'm really like engineering those things. Like what is the user interface would be like in this situation? So let's say there's a guy that's too drunk and he's like kind of in the corner like falling asleep.

you if you're at the party you could go to a guardian and be like hey I think that guy had too much a drink exactly a guardian would kind of go over be like hey are you okay let's go in this room get you some water sober you up and then assess if they're able to go back or if they should leave yeah we actually we mostly err the side of caution then yeah than risk in that size so hey maybe you should take it another night even if we question you is is yeah we just yeah low actually in our case we are quite low risk tolerance for that yeah for that type of scenario so and And also, sometimes it's important to have other people to talk to. And it's weird.

People are so friendly at sex parties for strange reason because you know what it's like when you go to an environment like this, your first time. So you always remember your first experience when you're trying to like find yourself. And I really like Bernay's Brown definition of belonging versus fitting in. Right. So like fitting in is about like what is their sort of like, how do I act like everybody else in this group? and belonging is about your, your internal sense of your desire and what you want and who you want to be. So we want to develop a culture where you are celebrated to be yourself. And the only fitting in

part is being respectful of boundaries and like don't be an asshole. Right. And how do you do with people that might be that are sort of on the outside of the membership? So like let's say there's someone that went to a few of these mixers and they didn't have the right energy or they were too aggressive and they didn't get vouched in. Have you ever had someone that like shows up on the day of and they're like, hey, let me in? And they're like, sorry, we can't. Or like someone that you had to kick out because they got too drunk and then they get aggressive or they get, there's like a dispute.

Has that happened? It happens, but not often, you know, because we put so many like sort of little hurdles along the way. And it's kind of stupid for a business where we inhibit growth, you know, but it is better product long term or better community experience. So like, so in the beginning, when we did. decided to be more public-facing. Because there used to be just a private group of friends who just like to have orgies.

And it's like a fun thing to do. And then it grew and grew and there's more people want to do it. And then my, the other co-founder of other co-founder, Andrew and Beth, both of them, who just go like, wow, we want to share this with more people. So we have to figure out how to do this in a larger scale. And it became, like from a hobby to something that go like, this is so fulfilling to do. because you have for someone to like find something that they didn't know that is so sexually arousing for them and they have an outlet for it that is healthy for them is really I think it's really special.

Yeah. Now let's say you're still operating within all of the like accepted boundaries of the community. Inevitably there will be people that will use sex as like a crutch or they might be a sex addict. I'm curious, is there any like like if you had a friend that was going really frequently and maybe not taking care of themselves in other ways or maybe like neglecting parts of their personal life because they are a sex addict. How do you have that conversation? Has that ever happened before? How do you, how do you mitigate that? I think. Or is it not your responsibility to like negotiate? Like if someone's like addicted to go into the gym, like I don't think I would go up

to someone to be like, hey man, you're going to the gym too much. So I'm curious. Do you feel like it's your responsibility? It depends if I know this person personally too, but the idea of a addict is, is different. Like, it has to me, an addict has to be that is causing a significant dysfunction in other areas of their life that is important to them or essential. So if they're not eating to go to a sex party or they're not like, I don't know, calling them, I don't know, I'm not calling their mother, but whatever, you know, whatever it is. Like they're destroying their lives for this addiction is very different behavior.

I also think how much sex becomes addictive. Yeah, I'm curious. I think everybody think they could have way more sex than they could, but like, there is a natural government drive. And that's one of the fun equalizer when it comes to a sex party that we don't experience anymore in society. Because when you have a dating app, right? And I'm sure you heard some of the statistics, like maybe the top 20% or 5% of men get all the girls, if I put that guy at the sex party, even if he's the hottest badass shit out there, he could only fuck so much. Right. So there's no, he's not like.

one serving 80 like that's interesting yeah in that one night he might have like two tries maybe three yeah yeah so it it regulates itself interesting so there is enough to eat for everyone given average hunger for everybody every person in there and like some people are truly insatiable and they could do it over again but at least for most male we're governed by our our sex drive and our hormone so it is what it is so you you can't eat all the food yeah but on apps you could talk to everybody right But even then, you can only go on so many dates, I guess. Yeah.

Right. Like, there's still a governor in that regard. Yeah, but not on their, I guess, their marketing, advertising or the prospecting. So when you have technology, you could do it at such a massive scale, right? And then their algorithm also favor you. But in real life, human interaction, it really does play out the way it's supposed to. Yeah. I'm curious.

What are your thoughts as far as, like, dating app culture? Like, do you use dating apps? Do you still use them? Yeah. And what is like, do you feel like it has negatively affected the dating marketplace, like in the real world? Yeah, definitely changed their sort of their mating dynamic or dating dynamic between people when, what is this, Scott Galloway? I think if I remember his name correctly, the way he talked about technology consolidating, you know, the industry is like there used to be car service everywhere and then Uber, Lyft just kind of killed the kind of thing, right? So they will be hyper-successful people at an app.

So then, and because if majority of women are talking to the smallest percentage of men, because they have bombarded with a million options, it's different when you add a real-life situation. But I think it's called, I think in some way it's causing a lot of, maybe it's unintentional harm. You know, I don't think they're out there to engineer the app. app that way. Right.

But it's sort of a byproduct of scaling, dating. Yes, because you don't actually see your option or your, actually your idea of the market is so obscure. Yeah. Because, you know, it's like everybody. You could look at every house in the neighborhood. It's very different than you could only, it's no more proximity base or community base in that sense.

Yeah. So I think a lot of men find it very difficult because if they're on the percentage of doesn't get much, you know, action on apps, it's quite difficult. And personally, I still is not like I kill on apps, you know, like I still deal it. I still work it like everybody else. But I also find meeting people in person quite fulfilling because you kind of eliminate a lot of the bullshit. Yeah, of course. I have so many friends that are like, you know, I was much more successful with women before dating apps because I'm charming and I'm funny.

And I have like, you know, I'm a good energy when I'm around them. But I'm not like necessarily a 10, you know, like not the most attractive guy. I'm not in perfect shape. But I'm just like a really fun guy to hang with. that I'm really giving. But as soon as the dating apps come in, it just kind of turns it into the opposite of what you were saying with the sex parties.

So it is purely based off aesthetic. Yep, and status. Like, are you wearing this watch at this beach with this people? So you're only using most basic attraction queue, right? That are not necessarily give you the right signal that this person is high quality. Even like pheromones and shit.

Like I'm sure you've seen those studies where it's like, okay, we had a hundred women, like rank 100 men. And then we had them like smell their shirt. And the ranking that they put on was different than what the shirt smelling was. But in certain cases, like they could tell the attractiveness based off of like the shirt smell. Like even just like raw pheromones, you can, you're losing that level of like basic attraction. And also if they're on birth control, like there's so many.

Isn't that wild? Yeah. I just read that study the other day. It was like women that are on birth control because of the release of progesterone, which is the active ingredient, a lot of like oral birth controls, which basically like simulates pregnancy. It simulates pregnancy in your body. And as a result, women that are pregnant will look for men that are more stable. And when they're off birth control, they have different taste in men.

Yeah. I thought that was so fascinating. It's crazy, you know, attraction. It's like, you know, I think because of technology and how world is changing, you could watch a Burger King commercial, right? And you know that fucking burger is complete shit, but you still feel like that looks delicious. Yeah. So there's a lot of things that fools our, our.

ability to make good judgment because it just looks shiny. And we have a lot of built in what drives us on attraction, but it's not always high quality. So mate selection is way more important. And unfortunate thing is the other side for, I forgot what the study, I forgot what that exact study, but the idea is for women to go on a straight woman to go on a dating app, they go like, wow, I've got to go through all this trouble. I want to get the best of the best. So they want the best looking guy, the best richest guy, because you are dealing with their like this pool. So you're trying to find the best within, you know, what you could able to get. So that shopping experience is very different than men, right? But that very couple different, but that 5% of men would get the same experience. So it doesn't help. It really doesn't help. And then for the men who have all their selection power, don't want to treat any of those women well because he's flooded.

with the same dilemma. I have unlimited supply, why should I invest in you? Right. That's so interesting. So it, yeah. And I get how that technological issue has sort of enabled a culture, I think of like really frustrated dudes.

Like the manosphere, I mean, you've heard that term before. Like has become this massive internet bubble of men that have animosity and anger towards women. And obviously like in-cell culture comes out of that. I'm curious, what are your thoughts as far as like, in-cell culture, man-sphere, like this male animosity towards women for, you know, getting with

chads, so to speak, and not wanting to hook up with just like regular dudes. I think it's in some way really misguided, right? But I also could totally relate because for most of my life, I was, I know somehow I'm lucky not to be an insal, like I'm a really sexual person, but I was cripplingly insecure. I mean, I'm literally, there's chances I could have got lay when I was a teenager, but I was like, oh, my, I don't have a pawn star cock. So when a girl reached for my hands, I would push their hand away. Oh, wow.

Like, I was the one who's reject myself most of my, like, late teens to early 20s. And so I know what is like to be on that low. I can't do anything to make this part of my life work. And the women are attracted to me. And then you grow bitter and angry. And then you start forming, you know, you subscribe to ideology to explain your pain. And then you just buy into the whole mindset. And I'm so happy and so glad that I discovered there's another way.

Yeah. So I'm curious. Can you explain where you grew up? I was born in Hong Kong, so I moved to the state when I was 11, and because of my dyslexia, I perfected bad English and bad Chinese simultaneously. So it's like really awkward to communicate with people, really hard to learn the language. And also, because of that, when you are at, you know, 11 here, I start watching, I don't know, hardcore internet porn 12, 13 here. And it's like, oh, all monster porn star cocks are you thinking, oh, for my average cock, this is never going to make it. Right? So you start thinking the sexual marketplace is like being in the NBA, right?

Yeah. Like if you are five, nine, you're basically useless. Yeah. I'm curious for you, was there a racial denative? Also, like, there's no Asian dudes in porn, really. It's just like white dudes with six-packs, black dudes with six-packs. And that's kind of it. Yeah, yeah. So because of that representation and Asian men been like desexualized for so long. Right. And they got swiped on less on like dating apps. I've like seen those studies. Like it'll be like Asian and Indian men will get swiped on at a left. lesser rate. Yeah, absolutely. And I still feel that sometime, but I guess when you are, like now I'm like kind of a unicorn of a person. So it bypass a little bit of that. But I know what is like to feel so rejected that you just feel like the world is your enemy. And it's unfortunate because there's such a high demand for, you know, like they talk about difference between men who have given up on themselves versus being an average man as in like, you are.

are, what I mean by average is that you are going out there and making a living, right? And you're taking care of yourself in a reasonable, you know, way. Not that you only play video game and 400 pounds and have never talked to a female in your life. Very different story. That's not average. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I know from my own experience that, like, I think for most men, they really, like, I wish I'm taller than six feet.

you'd have a six-pack and have a greater than six figure income or a six plus inch cock. I call it the six-six. But the six-66 is actually a lie in so many ways because although those quality could get you into the door, it's not very, like it doesn't sustain if you want a long-term happy relationship with anyone or even multiple sexual encounter all the time. That's just not the thing that really does it. Yeah, we had Dr. Huberman. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's great. And he said something on the podcast when we had him on that was like so obvious. And like every woman listening was like, duh. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because every time you smoke, you have a coughing attack. Yeah. I'm sorry to tell you that, but it's true.

Every time you smoke, you go, oh gosh, and then you got to drink some water. You look like an idiot. You're not even having a good time. You know how you get the coldest, smoothest rips? You get a freezable pipe or bubbler from freeze pipe. Yeah. Included in every piece, you get a freezable, glycerin chamber that you pop in the freezer for one hour before you smoke and it will cool your

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in terms of like a long-term relationship or like men that will have multiple partners is kindness. Yeah, which sounds like so dumb. Like every girl listening is like, yeah, don't be an asshole and we'll like you. But for guys, for whatever reason, I'm not sure if it comes from media or from porn or a mixture of things. But I think a lot of men do have a perception that like, okay, earn a lot of money, be hot. I can get anyone I want.

I'll be happy forever. Yeah. And I had the same mentality when I was in my 20s. I was like, okay, I cannot bro a bigger cock. So let me try to get a six pack and be rich. You tried, though, right? You tried with the gas station pills. Yeah.

I try everything. And I did get the six pack and made enough money to get a girlfriend. but it did not eliminate their internal sexual insecurity. And I think until actually overcome that obstacle, then that's when everything changed in the sex life department. There's other parts of my life. And it's tricky because when they say kindness, they think like a yes man who is nice.

It's very different kindness. It's different kindness is that you choose to do the kind thing even when you don't feel like it. Yeah, it's not transactional. It's not being a doormat. Yeah, you know, like dormant kind of nice. The other side is when you really look into sexuality, you have to be able to access their arousing bad boy part simultaneously because in a sexual, negotiated sexual situation, certain behavior, like where we opened this podcast with like doing a spanking is hot. But if I tell you, like you like to hit women completely out of context.

So if you put it in the right context and the right behavior, so certain behavior from creating. arousal and turn on attraction is important, and it is preference in the bedroom. But you could have both. You could do really naughty things also be really kind at the same time. Yeah. And it's interesting because I think women want that in men. And I think simultaneously men want that in women. I think Sigmund Freud, the psychologist, has this thing called the Madonna whore complex. Have you heard of this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So effectively, the way he describes it is like men want the Madonna, like the perfect pure motherly woman that like can raise their children that is nurturing kind and they simultaneously want a horror which is like someone that will do like naughty things and devious sexual acts and i think

women kind of look for similar things in men but it's effectively finding someone that can appease all sides of you and and the complexity of the human condition both in like kindness and nurturing and sweetness but also like sexual excitement and like aggression and like sort of this like monkey brain lizard brain like internal carnal like primitive thing and And I think oftentimes men will misjudge that in women and they'll like, you know, find their Madonna and then never bring up any sexual behaviors with her and then cheat with, you know, a prostitute. Yeah.

And they'll almost like segment those parts of their lives where I think if they were more open sexually, they could easily find that in a person, in one singular person and have a fulfilling like monogamous life if they wanted to without having to supplement. And some people also could probably supplement it in, you know, polyamorous relationships and things like that. I think their Eastern philosophy and comes to like sort of the Yin and Yang balance, having access to both is really important, but it's having like so many other teacher I've talked about is having that power

under voluntary control with ethics, right? So if you are just a dormant, nice guy, not very good, if you adjust the asshole, not very good, but you want to be able to be the asshole when there's an invasion, right? Like you need to access that part of itself. You need to be able to correct an injustice. So it's not wrong for those attraction cue to be designed into us to look for people who have those things and they're quite arousing, but given the wrong context or the wrong, not wrong, but like if you don't have it in the voluntary control or you're overleaning on one side or the other, then it's problematic. But we all kind of sort of have the ratio.

So you, like, I forgot, Joe Rogan episode talked about being a warrior in a garden versus being a gardener at war. So you definitely want to have that. Yeah. Can you expand on that little aphorism? I really like that. Yeah. So if you're a warrior, meaning you could fight, but it's really nice that you could fight and chill in a garden. But if you're a gardener who cannot fight, then you're fucked in a war.

So you want to develop that aspect of yourself, right? And, you know, and BDSM, kinky fantasy is really popular. It's not like as low in when it's like, so group sex than kink. Like that's the sexual fantasy that like most people are attractive. that you are aroused by the idea, but not being educated, know how to execute it, right, and then narrate the fantasy. It's not very different than watching movies and film. We love, like, dangerous, stress, anxiety, violence, fear.

So to me, sex could be curated that you are writing this movie. And sometimes it's a different genre. Like, you know, you could be your romantic candlelight left making bid, or you could be like, like, fuck me at a fancy restaurant, bathroom and call me a whore. Like, it's just different flavor of a movie. And most of the time, we're trying to enter a sexual experience into a place where you could fantasize and enjoy yourself. And it's like theater-like. So to me, having BDSM and Kingskill is like you're able to curate an experience that has layer and complexity to the drama.

Yeah. It's not just like, okay, put your genital in this and line it up. Like, that's the fun part. It's a part of like a sexual narrative, so to speak. Yeah. And it could be quite artistic and beautiful when it's done. when it's done. And you're also expressing yourself

because everybody have their own unique sort of pleasure personality. You know, what arouses them, the narrative that turns them on. Yeah. Yeah. And your story, I just think is really interesting to me

because I think it is not, unfortunately, super uncommon. That I think that there are a lot of, like, not only like immigrant kids, but just like kids that grow up in the States that see porn early on get this perspective of sex that I think is really warped.

They never really talk about sex like with their families. And then in your case, like coming from a different country, where did you move to in the U.S.? I moved to Brooklyn first. Okay, yeah. So you moved to Brooklyn, which again, I guess is a little more diverse, but still, like, you know, you might have a little bit of an accent.

You're like a Chinese kid up from Hong Kong and, like, you're not knowing exactly where to fit into the sexual marketplace. Did you have experiences early on with rejection that had any, like, it gave you animosity towards women? I think more of a pain of rejection, but I think my early childhood strategy was to reject myself before they have the opportunity to reject. me, right? So that, but then you're still feeling rejected, no matter if you actually did not get rejected, you just feel that is like safer or less painful, but the results are the same.

It's a defense mechanism. It's a defense mechanism for sure to deal with insecurity. And I did, I think there was one particular girlfriend just that, I like it a lot better with my ex and that was like quite painful. It's quite in love with her at that time too. And then at that time, I'm just thinking, oh, this guy has to have like a bigger cock or whatever the thing is that I could think of to, you know, spiral into this dark place. And then got like, like I found Hacienda, the community and Andrew and Beth and just kind of opened up my whole world. And I realized good sex is so diverse.

And like, like, then you start to learn to eliminate those myth like bigger is better is really about like fit, you know, it's like your feet to a shoe. Yeah. And majority like most people are not seven fit tall, you know. And so actually most people stuff work. Yeah. with each other. And yeah, and then learning all this, learning all the different skill that you could improve

your sex life have. Like, you know what's crazy is that when most people listen to me and I talk about my cock size, you just think, oh, I became really good in bed to compensate for a lack that I see in myself. Yep, that's what I was thinking. Right. And yeah. And what I realized over time is that there was nothing to compensate.

And that is the best gift that I could ever give in myself. because I realized, oh, there's an advantage to having my cock. So if I did actually end up having a 12-inch cock, right? That is so not anal-friendly, right? So I have sex with so, I have so much, you know, I got into so many butts because I feel anal-friendly. It works most of the time. But like, so there's problems with either extreme, right?

Like if you have the micropenus to the monster cock, they all have their problem. Although those are kind of pretty extreme case, we're talking about 2% of the population on either side. Yeah. Right. So most people are in, and most people are in the middle. But back in the day, go like, I always think, oh, if I was a little bit taller, if I was a little bigger.

But I realize that it does not inhibit my sex life whatsoever. I am preferred by a certain population of the people. Yeah. And their monster is preferred by a very small percentage of women. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You said something that was very funny on a different podcast, but you were like, like,

size doesn't always matter. And if it was the case that women only preferred bigger penises, they would all have like 12 inch dildos. Yeah. And that's not the case. And that's not the best selling dildo. But vibrator works way, you know,

they buy way more vibrators than dildos. Yeah. Not that saying cock is, it's not a fun tool in the bedroom. But I have learned so many things, you know, like, you know, and if I over talk about my cock side, I'm just a passionate about,

I've seen so many, like, guys suffer. their entire life from a myth. So I'm like really passionate about getting people to stop thinking that. And one of the things that like I love nerding out about is that I think every man, every straight man really want to want the dick to be the key to her lock that like unlocks everything.

It's like the perfect thing, you know, that it works perfectly. And while most people only emphasize on like how hard they could get and how big it is and how long they could last, but that's not usually what creates the most. pledgible or having the best orgasm. So I have learned that, oh, if someone who never have an internal orgasm, and I'm not saying everyone needs to, but there's ways to do it.

And I have learned how to use my cocktail to give that experience to more people than I could count. Right. So, and not that that is the most important thing, but it's a skill. And so you could have the equipment, so you could have a F1 car, right? But if you don't know how to drive it, I could still beat you in my Honda, right? You crash it, right? There's a skill. But we're still thinking that you're the F1 car because you are their 2% of penises.

And it's so not true. But I will say, though, if I had to pick one of the 2%, I would pick the bigger 2% than the micropenus. Yeah. And there's a good reason. There's a good reason for it too because like what we talked about. And Andrew Hooperman talked about that too about a visual cue. So when we look at something, when it looks bigger or this car looks like is moving when it's not moving,

there is a very potent dry for a visual system. So like that Burger King burger, right? So we override a lot of like it's good marketing. Yeah. Like the thing you want looks bigger. Yeah. So, but it's not always better. And it's very, it's very funny when like when you, when you sleep with someone,

you go like, I'm not the most attracted to this person sometime, but they just so goddamn good in bed. Yeah. You know, or but I think, I think especially, preferences, people will groan to really love and like a person when they have more exposure to their balance between kindness and assertiveness and then also skills. Like, can you actually, like if you make her a meal, is it actually delicious, right? Right. Yeah. Now, I will say, though, with like the micropinous thing, that does seem kind of unfortunate, like, if you are one of the

2% of people that just, when it's hard, it is an inch. Yeah. What, like, what can those people do? I talked about it in my book, right? Like, like, what do you do on either extreme end? And, There's people who prefer it. So first of all, like, you have to make this assumption that every, just say if that micro penis male is a straight male and looking for another straight woman, he has to assume that every straight woman is all they ever desire is to be banged by a penis to have an orgasm. And that is, it's common. But there's many women who do not ever get off from penetration.

Period. So your dick don't do much. In fact that whenever you, like, when you start fucking, they're like tuning out. Like for a lot of people, they're just penetrative sex is not the thing that does it for them. So you have to find yourself pairing with someone who prefer, like that's not what their biggest turn on is. So it's really about finding someone who you match with

and there will be a percentage of people that would match you. It's much harder when you're on either extreme size, just like anything else for that marketplace. But you could fuck like a beast with any size cock, depending on the person you pairing would. So there's a lot of, I mean, there's enough people who do not, like, do not prioritize. Like, that is the number one sack sack that it really, really does it for them. Right.

So if you have a micropenus and you link with a girl that's like, I need penetration, that is probably not going to be. Oh, I need a penetration bigger than what you have. Right. And not good pairing. That's not going to be sexual compatibility. But if you find someone that's like, I don't really care about penetration. Like, if it's good for you, that's great.

But I need something else, some other type of stimulation. And if you can do that, then we're good. Yeah. So, and that happens out there all the time. And then there is the pain of the people who have, like, their extreme large cock, too. They have to find someone with a larger vagina. And we don't talk about that, right? Where do you park this Big Mac truck?

Not in a tiny garage, you know, calling B. There's no such pairing. Yeah. Although it's flexible. That garage is stretchy, but there is a, there is an actual natural size that you could measure vagina. And when I wrote on the book is pairing, like, what are the percent? percentage of people matches and majority people match.

And that's what we learn. But there is some extreme large vagina that are more accommodating to a 12-inch cock. And that's why they, like, in order to do porn, you kind of have to have those equipment in order to make it work. So be grateful for averageness is really, that's the point. You're the majority. If you're average, you are the most compatible with the most people. Yeah.

And average is what? Like, what is an average penis set? 5.6 in the study. So, so any, so if you're above six inches, you start, you start curving. out of bell curve, most people sit in the 4.5, 4.4, 4.5 to 5.6. It's most people on the planet. Yeah. And then you have people, but you don't see that in, you see that more in sex party when you start looking around, right? Because I see a lot more penises because of what I do for a living and the community I'm into. You see that actually statistically, that is the world. It's not what people think. So their perception is so scared from watching porn because all you see is that. Right. So and then you're expecting. it to, yeah, so, and how many women look like porn star, too, you know? Yeah.

Really look like a porn star. So there is a percentage of humans that are like that. Yeah, I do think there is a sort of like an implicit negativity with porn in that regard, that it is like the predominant sex education in the United States and probably around the world. Isn't that meant to be sex education? And I feel for the porn starting to sign up to be sex educator, but unfortunately mimicking porn is sort of the go-to place for a lot of people.

Yeah. And I guess, I mean, in your case, it was fairly negative. if that's the only representation of sex that you have. Like, did your family talk about sex when you were growing up? No. Not at all. Not at all. And I'm the same way.

We never, in my house, it never came up. My parents had seven kids and they were like, they were dropped off. Like, it never came up. Yeah. So, yeah, so only seeing that, that's why I was so passionate about putting my content out there because I want to be on video or presenting. I'm not, I'm not pre, like, there's one thing about me teaching and preaching this, but I literally show people I'm doing it in, in like, real time.

Yeah. So I think that's way more important to for people to see someone else doing it. And it's not a performance. Like, you know, when you make porn and I've been on porn set, that is like, it's like being on the Fast and Furious set, you know, like all the driving stunts are not real. Yeah, yeah. And it's cut in a certain way and it's produced in a certain way. And that's okay for entertainment and arousal value, but that's not how sex really go down.

So I really, I really try my best to show people a diverse. point of view when it comes to sexual interaction and different people have different preferences. So if I'm demoing something, I demo it with different people, go like, well, she really likes it super light. And this one could like you is a power queen. And you could see two different people.

That's why you never use your ex-girlfriend's map to navigate your new girlfriend's neighborhood. Like, it's really, really important because it could be so different. That's a great analogy. Yeah, I do think guys will do that. They're like, I figured it out. I figured out chicks. I know how they work.

It's like, you know how one girl works. Yeah. You got to restart, maybe. Or maybe you don't have to, but you should try to renavigate the sexual interaction. But it's so funny because when I was studying all this stuff and being a super nerd, I was like, there's a better answer than every woman is different. It has to be like, how do you coach someone or teach someone? Imagine, like, I've been a personal trainer for a really long time.

Imagine I'm like, you hire me and go like, everybody's different. Yeah. Like, but what about your body? Yeah. Like, how do you figure that out? Yeah, I don't think everyone's different. but I do think there's probably like 10 types of people or something. Like there's a,

I think there's a set number that most people fall into in terms of like sexual pleasure. Yes. And there's actually great studies and statistics out there now that it wasn't previously available. So the way that I teach how people figure out what that person like is that if that person don't communicate, don't tell you, first you have to have the ability to reach like sexual cues, right? Like you didn't need to know when shit's are working or not working to a certain level. Right. So it's like it's as frustrating.

as like ordering an Uber and you don't see the car moving. So if you don't have any part like status report, it's really hard to tell when you can't recue. But the second thing is there is like you said, what are those set 10 things, right? There's statistical preferences that work for more people. So you kind of doing it like a cart counting in Vegas trick, you want to bet on the highest bet possible first.

So you do a process of elimination. Like most people like this, let me start there and go down. So some women could have nipogasm, right? But you don't start with that. Yeah, yeah, because it's not likely, right? So it's like a funnel. Start with the biggest thing.

Biggest thing and that work your way down. And you'd be surprised that, you know, it's kind of easy to figure out once you use that mindset and strategy. And you don't get attached to how this person finds pleasure. It's just what gives them pleasure. I will say, though, I do think it is every person's individual responsibility to achieve pleasure in a sexual sort of like transatlantic. action. Like, like, I know people talk about the orgasm gap a lot, which is, I guess, this idea that men, like, let's say, like, a straight hookup, like men will orgasm like 99% of the time and women will be like 60% or something like that. And there's probably a myriad of reasons why that happens. I'm curious what you think. But I all, I kind of am like, if you're not getting off, that's kind of your responsibility to communicate what you need. If you communicate and it doesn't happen, then obviously it's not your fault. But I'm curious, what do you think of it?

It's, I think it's really, really tricky because if you, like, if you have, it's a disagreeable personality approach, right? Like, of course I'm going to get mine. So if you, if you have, like, if you have a disagreeable person, you will care about you getting your side first. And you make it absolutely that person's responsibility and make sure they, they would think like you and get theirs. And most of the time that is like a race to the bottom, right? does not work out for everyone. So, although in a principal standpoint, everybody should be responsible for their own pleasure in a interaction between two people, that actually quite difficult.

Because if I am more, I am super disagreeable and you are super agreeable, most of the time, in this pairing, I will luck out than you, right? You will suffer on that end. So it is important to encourage women to stand up for their. pleasure to ask for it to have the skills but I truly think that it requires a cooperative mutual satisfying mindset between two people to one I care about your pleasure right not that I don't care if you didn't get yours you're like tough shit yeah I don't think it's a great attitude and also I think men so underestimate the power

of the reciprocity that they were received for being good in bed Like, if you want her to truly embody her sexuality, which is super hot, if you're really good at things, she'd be so giving. She'd be sucking your cock like. She's trying to, like, worship her maker. Like, if it's done well, right? But you only get that reciprocity when the other person is truly satisfied, right? Like, if you were really good to a friend, ideally a friend would be good to you. And that reciprocity doesn't always happen, but it's so high that, like, most people don't understand that power.

So you will get a much higher quality of sex if the other person is like truly mind blown. Yeah. Yeah. So now going back to your journey, how did you get out of the mindset? I'm sure there are dudes listening to this that are like, no girls want to bang me. I'm rejecting myself before I even get rejected because the pain I felt is so bad. I, you know, I'm undesirable for X amount of reasons. And then they start listening to media like you were saying that sort of fills and rationalizes their pain.

Yeah. And then they join a community of people that are like, fuck, women. Yeah. How, like, I don't want to put this label on you, but had you not found your community, is it possible you could have gone down that pipeline? Like, if you were a kid today, like, getting these reels and shorts of being like, you know, bitches aren't shit, blah, blah, blah. You can't trust them.

Like, that could have been you. So, like, what, how do you get out of that? Partly, I'm just fortunate in that case that I was exposed to this culture and community at a very important part of my life. but I have a very funny story in how that actually happened. There was like one time in my 20s when after a really terrible breakup was that one that told me the X did it better. And then I was like celibate for like two years, finally got back into the dating scene my late 20 and I met this girl. And she told me and I was like, I'm not sure about monogamy at that time.

I was just like, you know, being open and sharing about like my idea about relationship. Although like in their relationship I had in my 20s, also still like really slugly. right? Like it's like in my mind at times like wrong to feel that way. Like you should find the one and stick with that kind of thing. But my internal experience is like shiny, shiny, shiny. Part of you to do with my ADHD and my dopamine system. But when I found her, she's like, they're sex, yeah, like, you know, the sex parties and things out there. I'm like, no fucking way. That only happens in a movie, like like three sums and stuff like that. And then eventually she invited me to a play party and we start dating. And that was my first sex party ever in

in Chicago. And I had a lot of work to do that day. So I was like really anxious. So I go like, my friend gave me an ed role. Never thinking an eterole in my life. I took it early part of day, got all my work done. And I was really excited to go to the sex party. And she even prearranged a threesome for us to have at that party with someone really hot. And I was like, kid in a candy saw still really nervous, right? Still have all my insecurity. But like, fuck it. Like I can't turn that down. So I went. And then it's the first time I see people like walking around naked, having sex and all that stuff. And all of a sudden I find myself in this room. with my girlfriend at the time and this other girl.

And we start playing. And then I normally don't have that much erection problem. And it's like just like I came out of a pool, like George Costanza, I was in a pool. Feeling, right? I'm like, nothing is working. I have no idea why. Right? So I try and try.

And then it's like nothing. And I didn't know I had a like, eterole gives me the side effect of like hard to get erection. And a little bit to do with nerves. So I'm like, no way. So like I took myself out of that room, feeling really embarrassed. And I went to the bathroom. I'm like giving myself a coaching talk.

I'm like slapping my cock. Come on, buddy. Come on, buddy. Wake up. And, you know, I'm like trying to go like like like, you know, do some mindfulness shit and just like like think of something arousing. I'm by myself. I'm not stressed. Nothing.

So I was at that moment looking at myself. I go like, you know what? Like all my life I've been worrying about this pain that I'm feeling right now that is so bad. So embarrassing, so humiliating. And I walk back to talk to them and go, like, I don't know what's like, this is my first party, maybe his nerve. Like, I just don't know what's going on, but like, it's just like, I'm not feeling it. And they were so nice.

Like, it's okay. But there was a moment in that, in that bathroom when I was like, if this is as worse, I could possibly get, and I survived this, I could only go up from here. And I go like, well, I'm going to stop rejecting myself. out of this moment because if I turn this story into more of a reason to go down that spiral, it would never end. And I remember, I don't know where I found that courage. It's just like, there was like a paradigm shift.

So walk back out to the party, kind of calm myself down. I love boobs. And this woman just have the most beautiful pair of a breast that I've seen. Like, just amazing. So I walked up to her and go like, hey, I'm like brand new to the party. I don't know what the etiquette is. I just want to let you know, like, your breast is so beautiful. And she went like, oh, honey, and she just grabbed my head and motobote me.

So as my- She modabote you. Yeah. And I'm like, as my face was bouncing between her bodacious tata, I was like, I am never, ever going to cock block myself. As in rejecting myself first. So that moment just like really changed my life. And from then on, I go like, let me nerd out everything about sex. And the first thought was like, I need to get so good at it that I compensate. And then as I really nerd out on everything, I go like, that is stuck.

that is so overrated as the only requirement to be good. So then I learn about everything else and the rest of his history and I do this for a living now. Whoa. That's wild. So there's just that one experience. Yeah, that changed the trajectory. And the internal dialogue is like, I am not going to reject myself because you could think of a million reason why other people reject you and you act on it.

But choosing not to do that in that part of my life and made that like no matter how uncomfortable and how fearful, I'm just not going to do that. That's the part that I change. And I think in cell culture is that they have, they felt so rejected, right? Their idea is that every, they're all assholes. They all reject me. So let me reject them. So their reversal is that I'm going to reject out, right?

My experience was I was rejecting myself. So that changes everything. But understand the pain when you feel hopeless. There's nothing you could do about the situation. But that is not true is what's great about their, it's great about reality. That is like, it's totally about having a growth mindset. that is totally about a skill that you could acquire. And the bar is set so low.

Like, it's so low. Like, it's bad out there. So you could be, like, the top 1% it was so little investment when it comes to this particular skill. Yeah, it is interesting. That is like the terrible thing of insecurity is that you come up with all these reasons why other people hate you that are all basically fictitious.

Yeah. Like, you're thinking, oh, I'm going to go out there. I'm going to say, oh, I can't get it up. And the girls are going to be like, oh, you're a loser. You're an idiot. Like, I knew you couldn't do it. And then in reality, you went out there and you're like, hey, I can't get up.

And they go, we don't care. They're like, penetration isn't even our thing anywhere. Like, men will make up this thing. And like, their biggest fear is like, oh, I'm hooking up with the girl and I can't get it up. Yeah. And I don't know. I don't want to generalize. But I think the majority of women would be like, all right.

Like, can you do other things? Like, you have 10 fingers? Like, is there anything else that we can do? And then you're like, yeah, these are hard right now. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like men will create this, this like boss in their head that they can't defeat. And if they can just confront. it more often than not the boss is not real yeah and there's only good like only good male sexual

performances about having a big dick that stays hard that could last forever is the only thing that it measure against and that's their measuring stick is all wrong yeah yeah and it is a shame like so much of insult culture it's like you'll see the videos that go viral and it's like gold digging bride gets stood up on her wedding day or like you know gold digger gets owned or like girl that only wants rich six-pack big dick guys like gets destroyed and so many men like gravitate to that because they're I think it's exactly what you said it's like oh I get to see the women that rejected me over and over and over finally get feel the pain that I felt and justify their suffering in pain they were smart to avoid it I think that is their I was smart to avoid this evil group because

like like if I engage in it I will feel more pain I'm just a loser and a and a dumb ass right dealing with that size toxic. And I think I hate the label that any, any, like, feminine or masculine is toxic by itself. It's not, you know, like, people do have toxic behavior, but it's not like, that's not inherent within their, their, their, sex and gender. Right. Masculinity is not toxic.

Yeah. Toxic masculinity is toxic. The toxic is the main word. They're the toxic, though. Yeah. Yeah. Like, toxic masculinity and toxic femininity is just toxic. But masculinity and femininity, I don't think, are inherently toxic in their own right.

Yeah. And to label that, it creates a lot of harm of a lot of people. And then you use that to kind of create more hatred, right, for the other group. So I do think having harmony, right, between the sexes is not in the battle where we support and love each other and treat each other right and serve each other is worth pursuing versus like divide and hate each other. And then cherry pick all the worst trait that a few percentage of men like, you know, really engage. is a terrible view. Imagine like I look at two goat digging like and someone who have someone else's baby and lie about it and that just think of all women behave this way. That's what I'm saying. Like of course there are bad women. There are toxic women and there are evil women that only like you for your things and they want to take it from you or they want to trap you with a baby. Like there's evil behavior but that is not all women. But I do understand the feeling if you are a guy that did get rejected. Like this girl maybe that rejected you, I don't know her, but that feeling like saying that like, oh my ex is

better is so painful, but I can understand the feeling of like, every girl is like this and that pain is too much to handle and I'm not going to confront it again. So I understand it's completely normal, I think, in human feeling to feel that pain and then create defense mechanisms to reject it. But I do think it's important to try to work yourself out of those defense mechanisms and realize this is not representative of the whole. But it's back to the same thing we talked about earlier with a dating app. So as soon as you are attracted to certain groups, believe, and message,

and if you're on YouTube and your algorithms, are feeding you the same idea to suit that pain or to get validated, then you're in a bubble, echo chamber. So that's a tough part. But that message wouldn't be out there making money if there's not enough men suffering.

Yeah. And there's a lot of men suffering. A lot of men suffering. And I really want to take them out of that suffering because it's so unnecessary. It's actually quite easy to give women what they want. that they really want it from you if you are good at it, you know? And the bedroom is a big place and being kind and everything else is important.

But it is like one semester of investment in like a college course to get so good at it. And you don't even have to be that good. Like you just have to be like open and enthusiastic. You don't even, you know what I mean? Like obviously like skills will develop over time and that's good. But the skill gap is actually quite tiny. It's so funny because most people miss the mark just a little bit. Like the different, like, one of the things that I love teaching is this idea of pleasure wiring.

So literally your nerves are wires slightly differently with everybody, right? Like on the genitals and your face or whatever. And then some people have a weird tickle spot. You think of it like that. Yeah, yeah. Don't touch my lips. Yeah. That's my thing.

If anyone rose my lips, I freak out. So your wire or a certain way, like the physical wire and your sensory cortex. So you could be touching your girlfriend slightly off by two millimeter or old life. And that's a different between having orgasm and not having orgasm. It can be that small. And most people just miss the tiny little things and it drives me crazy. Like I have coach couples that have been together for 20, 30 years and they just don't have their, and it was a very religious couple. So there was no communication culture when it comes to sex pleasure or like this is just to make babies and all that stuff.

Both of them were kinky as fuck and never talked about it and do it kind of like hush-hush. She will read 50 shades of gray and he would watch a bunch of kinky porn. But they do classic like love making and blah, blah, blah. that they all hate it as like the most blend. They like eating tofu when they don't want to have a steak, right? So they've been doing that all their life. And until I had that conversation with them, they were able to talk about the thing

that actually really does it for them. And they do it for the first time. And they've been doing like tofu sex for 25 years and they finally had their filet mignon. But it was available their entire time. Yeah, and it requires a conversation. I think a lot of people just assume like, oh, once I'm in a relationship, like that will just naturally come up.

And these things, these conversations will naturally happen. And maybe for some people, they do. But I do think for a lot of people, especially if you come from maybe like repressed culture or repressed religion, I don't want to say repressed. Like if it's not a common thing in your household to talk about it, yeah, just having that conversation can unlock an entire potential for your relationship. But there's not enough of a lexicon for people to talk about sex and pleasure because we don't even have the basic building blocks when it comes to that communication for most people. like I could talk about, if I'm talking to another bro about protein powders and like bench press technique or whatever, there's a million language that I could use and they will understand what a squat is or don't skip lick day and there's a bunch of shit that they know.

But I want to talk about sex with another guy. It's like we only think about like, how can I stay hard and bang her or whatever that case may be. So that's why I was like, oh, when I, when I, when I was going down that rabbit hole, because I taught fitness for a really long time, there's actually not a very useful language and framework to separate what's good and bad or how to improve something. So when people don't understand those concepts, like the nerves might be just a little bit left. Like that, you know, ex-girlfriend map is that her map is like just the wrong house. It's next door.

So like figuring all those things out from science perspective. And also it's like once you get it, you know how the magic is created. So it's like you could create that magic anytime. Yeah. But if you don't know, it just looked like magic. Yeah. The other thing I want to touch on, but like the install thing is like, I always try to tell guys this, like, if you think women want like money and cars and six pack and all this stuff,

you're going to attract women disproportionately that only value those things. Yeah. And you will just get confirmation bias for the women that you're attracting. Yeah. So if you're only attracting women that like money, then yeah, you're going to get a lot of money and then get screwed over by women that just like money. And you're attracting the wrong thing based off what you think women want. Yeah.

When in reality, women want like a great relationship, kindness, like gentleness, but assertiveness and like all those things we talked about. And if your focus isn't on those things and like the skill and the skill gap and it's on these like superficial things, you're going to attract superficial people that are then going to confirm your bias that women are superficial. It's like you're just attracting superficiality with the way you're behaving. Yeah. And I think it's interesting that you're able to get into relationships that have been, you know, repressed sexually and then unlock those things. And it's cool. I'm curious, is there a, I think a lot of people will look at like sex positivity as like a purely like hedonistic, amoral, non-religious pursuit. And I'm curious, like, is there like within like a monogamous relationship and even if it's a religious couple, having fulfilling sex is still moral, right? Like I don't think that that is at odds with a religiosity. No. And also there will be a percentage of the population that monogamy works way better.

for them. So it's not like this one prescription, like the white right to have sex or relationship is only this model works. So there's many people who have like really satisfying sex life with only one partner their entire lives. And there's people who want to have sex with a new person every weekend. So they're just different. You know, like some people could fly from airport to airport and airport and people can leave their house. It's just two different type of people. But when it comes to good sex, right, is what about, is this? really about what you truly desire and want and aroused by. And can you create that experience with a person you want to create that experience with?

Yeah. And a lot of times that, but most of the time people don't know how to, like, curate or create those experiences. So they only go like good sex looks like this. So I will do, you know, X, Y, Z or get my, or like sort of the routine that people fall into. And there's another concept from Ian Turner who wrote, she come first. he did a bonus interview for my audiobook. And he talked their, his concept about a sex script.

So everybody have a certain sex script, like the way they view about sex. So the social sex, the social sexual script is like the larger expectation of what society. And then you have an individual one, like how you get turned on, how you get aroused, and what scenario on how you behave. And I find that his model is one of the most useful tool to learn how to do that communication with an individual. And you realize you don't really, I mean, it's not that you don't have a choice in your script, but it's pretty built into nature and nurture. So if you learn to embrace that person's, you know, preferences, just like everybody like food slightly differently.

Some people could drink soil in their whole life and some people could only eat like gourmet food, right? It's very different. But there is a way to talk about it where people could discover the thing that really does it for them. Yeah. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick, because I got to talk to you about your sexual performance. Yeah. I know Kenneth and I have been talking back and forth about sex, penis size, confidence. Well, hey, here's how you get confidence delivered right to your door. Blue Chew is a unique online service that delivers the same active ingredients found in like Viagra, Seattleis, but it's chewable and out a fraction of the cost. And here's the best part. It's never been easier to get. You go to bluechew.com, consult with one of

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the pleasure of sex. And I think that's largely because in America, which is like a largely puritanical Christian country, at least in its genesis, pleasure I don't think was talked about at all. Like I think sex was mostly looked as like a procreative act. And ultimately it, I guess it is like sex, like the function of sex in terms of like the biological reason is to procreate. But I don't know if that's the only reason. It's also like unitive and bonding and there's pleasure that I think has largely been neglected. But I'm curious as far as like babies and children. are involved, like, sex does lead to children. And so I'm curious as far as, like, monogamy and

polyamory, I view monogamy is really beneficial for, like, raising children. And once children are involved in terms of just, like, rearing kids and, like, giving children like a, you know, healthy, stable household, do you think polyamory can be disruptive to that? And do you have to, like, really work on polyamory as it relates to, like, raising kids? I think it's two different function and is even more challenging because, the world have changed so much in the last 50 years, right? Like with birth control and and with abortion, with condoms and the pill and then dating apps. So we're not dealing with the same world that we had in the previous century or even like 50 years ago. It's so different

that I don't think we have learned to adapt it. Like the consequences of being pregnant was so high back in the day, then you kind of have to guard this decision because if we'd be quite damaging, dangerous. Of course. In so many ways. But that is no longer the world we live in, You could have a consequences free casual hookup on a Saturday that means would do nothing to your life. So now you're giving this whole new set of environment and rules that wasn't previously available. So although a lot of tradition was built on that world that we no longer exist in. And the second thing is what I personally, what I think makes a healthy relationship is how committed and how invested those pairings decide to do it and how committed they are as parents. who they how many people they choose to fuck and who they fuck and when they fuck or whatever the case may be is separate from the commitment they made to each other or to the child so I do think healthy family require a level of security certainty investment in it and it is unhealthy to not make those investment for the species right like as a society as a whole but I like I'm I'm working on my second book it's going to it's going to call beyond casual so I want to talk about is there something

Like because we only have hookup or wife her up, you know, like it doesn't, it doesn't, we don't have a middle ground, right? So been experiencing a lot of healthy ways for people to do this and also be very committed to their family and raising their children. Or some family don't look like a pairing of two. Some, it could be a group of people. It could be whatever the case may be. Each side has their pros and cons. So like there's definitely pros and cons in monogamy versus non-monogamy and it could take in so many forms. but that there is this idea that you have a relationship type too from Dr. Jana as well.

The relationship type really depends on your novelty drive. Like how much shiny do you really need as a person? It's really hard for someone who have a very high novelty drive to only be monogamous. So it's a role of the dice of the personality as well. So I think different relationship structure works with different population depending on your temperament and how you relate to the world. But I don't think non-monogamy is bad for family by default. And I don't know if monogamy is the only way to have a good family because they could definitely be a monogamous couple that have a really shitty family too. Yeah, of course.

So that alone do not make it so. But I think the investment and love and nurturing and security is what really does it. So yeah. And maybe some people can make it where I just don't know enough and it all is so new that I don't know if there is even any data to support it. But I guess like, yeah, non-monogamy in the sense that like, okay, we're married or, you know, we're in some sort of like stable relationship. We're raising a child together like two people. And we're choosing to then have, you know, relationships on the side that are sexual. That seems like, yeah, you could probably do that and raise a healthy family. But as soon as there's like a third or a fourth like parent that's involved in raising a kid, I'm curious if there's a, I don't know, I don't know if there's like societal detriment to having like four parents for one kid.

I don't know. I don't know if there's enough data. There's enough people that have been raised by multiple parents. Most kids back in the day were raised by the village, right? There's sort of a more tribal setup until city was born. So like this sort of a group effort when it comes to raising children that we, this idea of this nucleus family home in like 1950 picket fence level is pretty American. Right. And it's not a multi-generational household. And the funny thing is about swing or culture where they do a lot of wipe swap. back in the day was a it was kind of created in the air force where where there's a bunch of men who go fighting and they go like how do you take care of each other when like one of you die and this is how it was like a group of people who are committed to each other in that way and then this is the way that they figure out how to make it work and also they could be really

horny but it actually borne out of that oh interesting so it's not and the idea of monogamy is very different when we talk about like ester perrilla puts it like monogamy used to mean this thing but it's no longer what it truly means, right? Like, the idea is, like, you pair with one person for life, right? And in your case, you're actually living the traditional sense. Right now, we're just living up serial monogamy. I'm going to be committed until loves die. Right?

And that's her word. So it really depends on what your idea of, like, is it commitment until you die or I'm just committed? Like, I'm exclusive for this non-compete period, you know? And my favorite definition of, like, monogamy, non-monogamy, is you're really just choosing who to deal with the discomfort. So for example, if you am in a margous relationship, right, if you are attracted to someone, it is your responsibility to suppress your desire

so your wife don't have to feel that pain. In a non-monogamy relationship, there's room that you can negotiate that your, I would deal with by jealousy so you could have fun. So it's like, who is dealing with which emotion that you, so in a monogamous relationship, you really go like, your job is not to give those bad feelings to your partner in any circumstances. Right. You're either repressing your sexual desire or

they're repressing their jealousy. Or something, right? Someone is repressing something. So who is doing something? And sometimes it could be, I don't experience as much jealousy. My wife has two husbands and we all live together, right? And that's like, I have another great story about how we all met and if you want to know. But like, I don't feel like, and there's also, there's a genetic makeup. Some people feel a much higher level of jealousy than other depending on their attachment style. So So it's very hard to see the world from other people's lenses, but there's so many version of that experience. For some people, cut coding is the most exciting thing. And it's so high, actually, fantasy-wise.

And you would think there's the worst pain ever, right? For most guys, you think cut-coding is like being McFund off while your wife gets fucked. Yeah. But, like, it's a major turn-on for some. So it's just so different to reduce it into one healthy version. Yeah. Yeah. And I completely agree as far as like, you know, what individual adults choose to do, like,

basically do whatever. Like, as long as you're not hurting people, whatever, like, yeah, do whatever. But I guess just once kids are involved, it creates a very different environment because you're dealing with, you know, an innocent person that didn't opt into this life and trying to give them the most stable thing. And I'm sure there's different ways to do it. So I'm curious about like your dynamic. Yeah.

So you're married. I'm married. I didn't realize that. Yeah, yeah. That's cool. How long have you been married? We co-proposed together right before COVID, so there has to be like 2018. We didn't get a, we didn't have a wedding yet because of COVID, but there's three of us.

And it's been a, I met Geronimo, my wife's other husband, at a gangbang for another friend. And it was like a fantasy for one friend's girlfriend to have like a gangband, the other guy. And I was D.Ping her with him. And I go like my, and then I met him. I go, like, my girlfriend is really, really picky. She might really like you. And then I hooked them up. And they became friends.

And then they started to date and we're all together now. So you were dating your wife. And then you introduced her to this guy through a sex party. Through a DP. Whoa. I know. But sex is not the thing that we determine our level of commitment. Like sexual exclusivity is not the measure of your sacrifice.

is your commitment to being kind and responsible and have integrity is different. So it's just like, most people just say infidelity is the only measure of that loyalty is not what we measure in our relationship. And that could be, I'm not shitting on people who choose to have that as their rule, but it's not the one that we decided

that is the most significant thing to measure your level of commitment. And in society that sort of is the prescription, like infidelity is the only measure. And you have just chosen to create like a new prescription for your relationship that is like, hey, that's not the only measure. We have our own constitution that our relationship lives by.

But my version of non-monogamy is not the same as what most people would think. I believe in monogamy quite a bit, but my version is that I could do four-hour monogamy. So there's like Tim Ferriss. I'm going to explain this to my girlfriend. It was a good idea. So the idea of having this huge benefit of a monogamy structure. And I love it and embrace it. So because I believe in like flexibility, there's times that, look, I fuck, we all fuck so many people.

Sometimes we just don't want to share, right? So we could go to an event and be now monogamous for four hours and it's fine. And we would treat each other under monogamous rule. But it doesn't have to be the rule for life. It could be just a weekend. It could be her birthday. It could be whatever. And for those times, if a girl is hitting on me at a party, I would literally say it in front of my wife to the other girl.

I go, like, I love your attention. But tonight is really important to my wife. So I would love to fight again another time. And it's really pleasurable for my wife to have some love or monogamy experience, the benefit of monogamy experience. So it could be a little bit flexible for, and people could be monogamous. They could be monogamous most of the time, but they could have tiny like hall pass and windows in order to have those desire met.

So it doesn't have to be so extreme lifetime, right, monogamy. And it could be an option that some people prefer. it doesn't have to be an OG every weekend. There's so many versions of that that could be created. But when it comes to sex and relationship, we're really craving the idea of normal. Like, I just want to fit in, right? But the fitting in part is I just don't want to be rejected

because I'm weird or whatever. Like, if I like this, people reject me. So when you actually be authentic to who you really are, then it requires a lot of creativity and negotiation, but it's possible. Right. So my wife and I have chosen, I guess, by default, monogamy for the next 100 years. Yeah. And you and your wife, would you call Geronimo, your wife's husband?

I call him my brother husband to joke. Brother husband, yeah. Okay. So within your guys' relationship, you have monogamy, not for 100 years. You have it for a few hour window, and then we reassess and talk about it. And then maybe it's a week, and then we reassess and talk about it. And then maybe it's one day, and then we reassess and talk about it. I think the default is not monogamy, but we got up into some monogamy period. Like, you talk about raising children.

So, like, it'd be really fucked up. I'm trying to hook up with some random girl. I'm leaving my wife with a child and she really needs help. That's a fucked up behavior no matter what my agreement is. So for a period of time, people could choose to be more, like, less diversify. It's how I look at it. But it also has to come with time and commitment. I think the choice is that I would not neglect you, right, to a level that really hurt you.

And sometime you might have to deal with not having me because you are choosing to share me in some level of discomfort. But that part could be negotiated. And I don't believe in having one, I don't think it's without any flexibility to those rules, it's really tricky. Yeah. For you. Yeah. You're like, this is the way that my body and my brain is wired. And sometimes that's why people end up cheating and doing a lot more shitty stuff to do the monogamy facade.

They don't actually actually do it or they do serial monogamy. They feel like that craving is too high. so I have to end this relationship in order to do the thing I want to do. But then I don't think it necessarily has to be a trade-off. I think you could have a little bit of both depending on the person. But preference also changed in decades. So most people think people in their teens and 20s are having all the while sex. That is not true.

Like most kind of group sex, crazy sex happened in a later stage in life when they already have a period of committed relationship. So most people would turn in maybe 20-30s, 40. That's why I hire. there's a higher percentage of people who are late 30s to their 50 on the swinger community side because they already live their monogamy life out to a point. They go like, maybe we could all explore together. But I feel safer exploring with you than just going out and do it.

Interesting. So within your dynamic, you all live in the same home? Yeah. And where do you sleep? I have my own room. I'm a cat. He's more like a puppy. I am so different, you know.

And also one of the most difficult, like with Karen, my wife, my wife, Karen, the difficult thing was I didn't want to have children and she wants to be a mom, right? And I believe that it's not my choice, right, for her to be a mother or not. And if she wants, and then when she met Geron and Geron, I wanted to be a father yesterday, right? So, and they're working on having a baby. So, but I am too much of a cat. So I really don't make a great partner solo for someone like her who require the level of attention she desire. Right. If you had met someone and fallen in love with someone that didn't want to have kids,

then there might be more of that like social compatibility, I guess, in that part. So when most people look at us, they go like why this is like a weird setup and this weird dynamic. But ultimately, I think because of their desire, they have able to have, you know, the family that we all want and able to. to, she able to have a cat and a dog, basically, right? Right. And she didn't have to choose. Yeah. And I could be a cat, which is a really big benefit because without Geronimo, I really have

to repress a lot more cat-like behavior without his contribution. Interesting. So had you been strictly, let's say this was 60 years ago and you're in a strictly monogamous relationship, she would probably leave you to go be with someone to have a family. And then that would give you a heartbreak and make you sad. Yeah. And I, yeah. So it worked out because of their three people's pairing of.

of our desire and our needs, right? Of course, they're obviously compromised. It's not like a very tale story. We all, like, have to figure shit out. Of course. But it works out better in the long term because I could pursue my career the way that I am. And I would say my career is definitely my, my other relationship that I spend so much time doing.

And I cannot pursue my career in the same level if it wasn't for Geronimo being there for all the times. And there's times that we work, like it's like a teamwork kind of situation. And it works out a lot better for us. for some people, that is definitely a nightmare set up, right? But for me, it's like, it's ideal. Interesting. Could I ask you more personal questions about this? You can, you can punt if you don't want to. I talk, if I could talk about my dick on lines. Fair, fair, fair. Okay, so you live in your own room, and then Karen and Geronimo have their room.

Their room. Yeah. And did you guys, did you and Karen ever have your own room before you met Geronimo? I have never lived together with Karen. It was never going to a preference of mine. I rather people stay at my house. The reason that I'm living at their house is that they just bought a house and then I'm good at interior design and modeling stuff. So, and I'm also moving. I was in a sublet and I'm going to move again or travel a lot for a book tour. So I have this gap. So I decided to move in with them to live for a period of time to help them set up the house and while they're trying to make a baby and do all that stuff and then reassess. But eventually I'm always going to have my own place.

Oh, wow. And then they will have their place and she could stay at my place anytime she wants. is my prefer setup. But also that might change too in the future. I might be in my 16 and go like, fuck this. I don't want to do this. I just live with them. So it's always, or I fall in love with having children that I might, right, with them.

And then that might be something I desire. So I think because of my novelty drive, like my personality trait being that level openness, it's tough. It's hard for me to go like this. It would be the setup for life. But generally that, you know, I could do anything for a period of time and see if I actually like it and don't like it and then circumstances might change and so then the romance and the sexuality within the individual relationship like would you guys just all hang out like watch a movie together

and then if she's interested in having sex like proposition both of you either of you like how does that work so me and geronimo are aromantic and asexual like we're we're not to each other so we're not we're not hooking up when we don't have a romance like a like romantic love with each other but we are like really like brother husband yeah in that sense And so there's no sexual relationship between you two. No, there's some time we're having three sums together because we're just like having threesome's, right? Because we're into group sex. But that doesn't happen as often as people think that we all live together.

She's really, she is the husband hoarder that have both of us and she could rotate us as she please. It's more of our real life. Right. And then we also date and fuck other people. So it really depends. Yeah. And so are you able to bring a woman? into the home.

Yeah. And you just communicate that beforehand. Yeah. Also, we do it at party. So it's not a big deal of you wanting up to play with other people. It's not like, it's no different than I'm playing cards with you. Like, it's an activity that we enjoy. Right.

That I want to do with other people. And we don't have to highlight about that desire. But it's also we have to be respectful and just, you know, kind of like, like negotiate and just talk about it. But it's not a crime. right to do that or have that desire in the first place but there's so much other outlets so it's not like always like bring it home it depends but that's why i prefer to have my own place right yeah because then it just makes that part a little easier for me yeah and i and also back in the day i live in the

the orgy house right where we throw the parties and i sleep in the orgy bed and like i live with 14 roommate so it's a very different experience when I was like building that community and having like their bachelor life to now like living them and my next move I really want to live alone for a period of time and travel a lot yeah you would sleep in the orgy bed well I I share my room because I like building gigantic beds yeah just I like engineering sex stuff like like just where people get the loop and where they throw all the garbage like I just see like it's how I see the world so I built the whole like where there are 200 person sex party, I love building that house out for those activity. And I lived there for like six and seven years.

Wow. And I just moved out recently to live with Karen and Dronomal because we're also opening a bar and a venue. So, and I'm also too old. Like I'm turning 42 in the next 30 days to, it's a little too much. And I'm like, any focus in career stuff. So living with them is a good period of time to do this. Interesting. And when they have a kid, the kid will live with them.

Yeah. And then will you also take on parenting responsibility? Yes. And also we talk to other like psychiatrists and family like non-maner family, family law to how to interact with a child. And ultimately is that do you want to label or choose the responsibility of being a parent? And you kind of have to let the kid know your level of commitment and involvement by the age of two. Like am I staying in? and into the day you die from the age of two. So I haven't quite internally made that decision. And they're okay with father figure or uncle figure, depending on how it rolls out, like, when we actually have the kid. And I suspect that I'm going to fall in love too, but I just don't have a natural, like, desire and drive for it right now.

Right. So you think the kid will call Karen, mom, Geronimo, dad, and then maybe you dad. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't want to make that commitment without really committing to it. Yeah, of course. Yeah, that's a big decision. Yeah. And when I do make that commitment, I will stay in that child's life like my son or daughter

for the rest of, you know, for the rest of that, you know, yeah, that's life, yeah. That is just such a fascinating dynamic. Yeah. I don't know if I've really spoken to many people that are in that kind of situation where you effectively like introduced your wife to the father of the kid and you also may or may not be the father. I mean, you've seen this all the time in monogamy set up. Like if you have your first marriage and you have kids and the wife marry a new guy, you still have all this dynamic. They're just not fucking now because of like whatever the rules, but those configuration happens so many vary, like so often, but we just don't have a more different model than the one that is serial monogamous. That's interesting. Yeah, because I have so many

friends, yeah, when you put it that way, that are like, oh yeah, these are my parents and then that's my stepdad. Yeah. And I don't really talk to my biological dad that much, but I see him sometimes and I'm really close my stepdad or vice versa. That is really interesting. You know, there's a Chinese proverb that their parent who raised you is more important than your biological parent. Right. It's value that way.

So our own, my own internal value is that how actually invested as a parent to this child is more important than all the other factors. And that's what actually, you know, creates the bond and the relationship. So I could be genetically related and it's completely shitty parent. Yeah, of course. Yeah, and vice versa. I mean, I know people are raised by their grandparents, and they call them basically like mom and dad. They're like, these are my parents because my parents, for whatever reason, we're not really around. And yeah, it really takes the role of parenting. But it's a great, like, Chinese bargain for me because Geronimo is so nurturing. Like,

like, when you look at him, you would never like guess that that will be the part of him, but he's such a loving, nurturing person that he volunteer himself to probably do majority of their parenting. like the day to day picking up for school. So it's a great deal to, to, I could just do the father bit that I really like, like coaching, teaching or whatever the kids would be. Oh, that's at least that's my assumption. Wow. That is interesting.

Yeah. And at what point, I'm actually just curious, like your opinion, because you've obviously researched us a lot, what point do you think you should start talking to kids, like, about sex and sexual relationships? And, like, when did you wish that someone talked to you about it? Well, I'm definitely, I don't qualify myself as an age-appropriate sex. educator for the kids in their like I deal with adults of course personally work with adults on that education but if it was up to me then comprehensive

sex education should be available as early as possible for for people to like learn about biology like literally like this is a labia this is a vulva vagina and treat sex as a not as a taboo or potential sin and vice but treat it no different and fitness, food, and how to manage your finances, and clip them with the tool to make smart decision about this part of their lives. I think it's really important. And there is amazing sex educator to figure out this timing of when is their age appropriateness. And I would definitely follow their recommendation and their study.

But ignorance is not healthy, right? And people being in the dark is not healthy. And my wife is a ER doctor and there's so many nightmare story. People are just not educated in sex and think something they feel. fuck something up, I don't know what's wrong with them, and you just never talked about what They fell on a bottle or something. They never knew, or they didn't know a period exists, and then they play bleeding one day, they go to the ER, is that they just never learned that there was a period.

Yeah, there's so many wild stories of like, oh, there's four tampons inside of you, and you're like, yeah, I didn't know I had to take them out. Or like, oh, I'm afraid I'm going to lose my tampon up there. And it's like, you can't lose it up there. Yeah. But people are just, have a lot of ignorance as far as, like, how their body works. I think is important to educate people on the science and giving the tools to make good decision, but also not overly moralizing, like, this is like the best and before way, except

that don't harm other people, right? I think there's a really good rule. And for many consenting adults, yeah, to engage in the activity they want to do. Yeah, that's interesting. Early as possible is a little tricky for me. I don't know if I would teach my kids about sex as early as possible. Well, I think when we talk about teaching kids about sex, there's different levels, right? So it's like, we're thinking about exposing a two-year-old to.

hardcore porn. That's not, yeah. So it's really like basic there is a, there, there's male and female body and some people are intersex in educational level. And then when they start having sexual desires, right, there's a transition when they start feeling those feelings, how to understand those feeling, how to manage those feelings is really important. Yeah, I think that makes more sense. Yeah, so basic biology at like and then start and then go and this is a natural thing to feel and you have those desire and then you go to puberty. I mean, so that's why the age appropriateness comes in, I think, like, you know, and the Republican side is, like, all they think is like a drag queen reading a book to your child. That's what they think sex set is. So what I'm

talking about is really about making smarter decisions. So they could manage their life in a way that's healthy. Right. So something like, okay, my kid is like, you know, four, three to, let's say like three to six, teaching them about like private parts, teaching about like their genitalia, their body, like the function of their body. And then maybe as they get a little older, talk about the function of like the other body. Like if they're a boy talking about girls, bodies, et cetera, and just like the basic biology of like, this is what body parts are. And then as they're having sexual experiences, like, through puberty, and as their curiosity around sex starts to develop, then having a conversation about, like, how you use your body

and how you use your biology to, you know, have sex and that sex can have consequences, and it also can be pleasurable in that there's good sides and potentially negative sides to it as they're going through puberty and having sexual experiences. Yeah, and then the separation between, like, the, the science of human sexuality versus eroticism is two different thing, right? Like if I am- So for example, if I'm teaching someone about like driving, a race car, right? I'm talking about the theories of like entering a corner at the apex and this angle.

So I'm talking about physics here, right? Like that is one aspect of driving. That's different than teaching them like, you're looking. life should be about winning at all costs, right? Driving a car as fast as possible and drive this person off the row. It's just two different side of the same education. So I think people's lives would be significantly better if they're better in form from a, from science-backed information about sexuality and then figure out how they could express their

individual eroticism. That is like when they're reaching more adulthood on that side or like when they're age-appropriate, go to explore. But when you feel horny, like if you don't educate them, it's not like they're not getting educated, right, because of accessibility to information in most, in some fortunate society where you have access to information and internet and everything else. So you just leave it up to like social media and porn to educate your kids. That's awful. Yeah. So having the right information is really important, the science space and less politicized, like, like, you know, about either side. So to make a, to make a good thing.

good decision yeah yeah that makes a lot of sense yeah I do think that they're like kids are not I guess in my opinion kids are not inherently sexual until puberty like there's I think there's curiosity about the parts and I think that's where it's important it's like for a young child like before puberty to say like this is a car this is what a car does and then when a kid is old enough being like okay this is how you drive a car like this is like the different ways you can drive a car things like that once they're ready to drive a car. Yeah. And then, you know, again, do not claim to be a doctor, not claiming to be an expert on TV about age-appropriate sex education. But if your 11-old 12-year-old son, like I was remembering when you have your reaction, like, you go like,

why am I hard all the time? And like, why am I so much forever? Did I break it? Yeah, there's so many questions. And you having another adult that who was informed to talk to you about those things, so important. It's like, you know. And that doesn't really happen at all. Like, like, Like I said before, I didn't learn any of this. Like everything I had to learn was like, I literally had a friend across a street that like was in public school and got like a sex education like book. And I was like 13, 14, like just going through puberty and had all these hormones and feelings and sexual emotions and desires, but didn't understand what to do. And I didn't really feel comfortable talking to my family about it. So I like went through this pamphlet that kind of was just like a very like medical description of like what sex is and how it works.

And that actually was really helpful for me to understanding what it was. But I do wish there was someone I could ask. but I also think it's important to like let the kids level of curiosity. Obviously, kids are different. Yeah. And letting their level of curiosity drive the conversation rather than, and again, I don't have kids, so I don't know. But letting that level of curiosity drive the conversation rather than prematurely exposing a kid

to something that might be too sexual that then could disrupt their sexual development. And when I was researching their book, one of my favorite sex researcher, Dr. James Fowles, talks a lot about their, like, if you think about any, child developmental stage, there's definitely that stage where in a sexual development where you start like having the hormones, having those feelings, and the things that you experience and associate in that time kind of really alter imprint your sexuality for the rest of your life in a pretty significant way. So your first relationship with sex, your first experience with sex, what you taught about sex has real world consequences. So if that message is negative or is

dirty or as sinful, it does have like, that script, that script we were talking about earlier, we're running for the rest of that person's life. I also work at a retreat called Back to the body with my mentor, Pamela M. Sennon, where there's women flying all over the world. We run this centrist retreat where in places around the world where you have a something called sexological body work. That's a bigger body. And I guess our with her, which is different education system. But anyway, they are having a hands-on experience with a practitioner. We're not having sex with them.

We're just like educate them and coaching them and touching them in a way that like teach them about pleasure and how to have more orgasm and feeling safer. And usually the people who are sexually repressed earlier or dealing any sexual trauma, a completely different respond to the same exact situation. And it takes a lot of effort to unlock, like to remove some of those script from early childhood. But it also has to do with desire. Like, I don't know if you remember the first thing you ever seen or that movie and go like, oh, you are like actually aroused. Yeah.

And then someone then noticing what actually arouses you is also really, you don't really have that much choice in that. Yeah. Topanga Lawrence, born in its world. But it's also based on, is that pairing, what turns you on, it just will be a, it's like association machine. So you aroused and what you see while you being aroused will imprint what arouses you. So it's tricky and some are not like someone just like biological like orientation a lot of times or it's a combination of the two. But whatever that was pair at that time has such a big consequences the rest of your life. I'm curious like what you think of that as far as like sexual imprinting goes.

I don't know if this is true. You probably have more research than I do on that. this, but like, people will be drawn to, like, certain adult sexual proclivities based off of, like, you know, events that happen in their childhood or, like, you know, even, like, traumas that they might experience, like, in, you know, late childhood, like, early adolescence. And, like, I've heard things like with, like, cuckoldry, for example, where, like, men will get off watching other men have sex with their wives or their girlfriends. And sometimes there's a humiliation element.

I don't think that is inherent, but oftentimes there's a humiliation element. And I've heard from people that, you know, you know, you know, it's a humiliation element. And I've heard from people that, you know, you know, In those cases, it's possible that some of the men have experienced, like, infidelity, where, like, they maybe had, like, a prior girlfriend that cheated on them. And then this new experience is them able to sort of reclaim the trauma that happened to them in a controlled environment where some trauma happened, where someone cheated on them, and now they're able to experience that almost through, like, immersion,

and they actually were aroused by it instead of traumatized. Have you heard that before? What were your thoughts on that? No, no, absolutely. It's a very complicated topic, because. Because they're always going to be like team nature versus nurture. Like it's definitely a combination of both in my experience. But pleasure and fantasy has a unique way of twisting some of their tragedy and pain

that people experience like comic books and stories that like my world sucks or the fantasy world is better. So because sexuality often it's leading us towards more of a fantasized world. Right. So, and it's also depends of their act that happened to you that you might like anyway, but it would just not consensual and you were violated and abuse. So for example, the thing like you really like, I don't know, you really like steak or whatever. And I love cooking meat, so a vegan would hate meat.

But anyway, but you are forced fed steak. You would have loved steak anyway, but it's a force feeding that you're having the problem with. So then you don't, then you have a real relationship. mistake. On one side, remind you of this trauma, and the other side, you actually like it. So sometime a sexual abuse victim will have so much internal, like, turmoil and pain for liking certain aspect of their traumatizing experience or being aroused or having orgasm. And sometime your level of wantonness, right, in the situation versus your biological respond has no relation. So you could absolutely hate the situation. You could absolutely, this is

absolutely abused. But you're spot. might respond as orgasm. You could think about how like confusing for that person to have that experience and make sense of all of that, right? Yeah. Again, I'm not passing a moralistic judgment on. Like I even look at like I do stand-up comedy. Yeah.

And I don't doubt that my desire to be on stage and telling jokes and making people laugh certainly has to do with my childhood. Yeah. I think like growing up in a big family and there's probably ways to psychoanalyze this. But I'm like growing up in a big family, like comedy and like laughter was really valued in my household. And I was like six of seven kids. like there's not a ton of attention.

So certainly in some, you know, Freudian level, I think that the desire for attention manifests in those ways. And I think that's probably common for a lot of performers. And so, and I don't think that's immoral to do stand-up. And I don't think it's immoral to have like an early imprint in my childhood lead me to a career. I don't think it's wrong. But I do wonder if there is a connection between that.

Or maybe I always was going to be a performer, whether I was an only child. I don't know. I think it's a combination of both. So some people are just like born with it, right? like they feel that way from how they're wire. On the other side, it could be experiences is a combination of both. So in any camp that if you only think of it, people form their sexuality because of nurture,

then you always like, he liked this. He must like this because something really bad happened. Right. That is not true. Like, I think when Huberman was on your show, he talked about like the region in your brain when you like process disgust versus pledges like right next door, right?

And he brought up that point. And I think we were talking about feet in the case or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And some people are like, they see feet is like how I see boobs, right? Like they didn't have a choice in that biological respond. And that's a lovely king to have, right? Because you could see so much booze all day on the summer. But, you know, like, it's not like, and for some people,

they might be really turned on as a kid, right? And they always like under the table and all they see is feet, right? that time when they're super aroused and that could get linked up or it just a crossover between the nerves. Right. So we can really always say, is this or that? Yeah. But at the end of the day, it does not matter because you're dealing with whatever you have at that moment. So my philosophy is that you have to learn how to make sense of your world. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So yeah. And so long as your sexual desire doesn't hurt anyone else. Like I think that is like the big thing where people will get hung up. Like obviously if you, and again, I don't know this to be true, but if you have experienced

like sexual abuse as a kid, then you might have like a latent sexual desire that could be like pedophilic. And obviously that is wrong. But I'm curious like if there even is a connection or maybe some people are just born that way and then they have that desire. And I don't, yeah, I guess to your point, I don't know if you can really always pinpoint it to, oh, this event happened, therefore you are X. Yeah, both view is problematic if you only think is you're going with it. And the inside is like it's made from some tragedy. And sexuality is so, so diverse is the other thing that, and it's hard for people, we grasp that more than food. Like, there's so many different cuisine around the world that we figure out how to eat and taste

preferences. Like some people like spicy that like it will kill you. Yeah. You know, because of that, like, but we don't look at sexuality because we're trying to normalize it. Yeah. And I do think that, yeah, I think there's been such a long time of like sexuality being put into a small, like, finite little spectrum of what's allowed. And now there is a counterculture that's, or sort of opened up where it's like no there's other ways to look at it i do think that sometimes people like conservatives will get uh hung up because they go like well where is the line and i think for most people that i've talked to like in the community they're like yeah the line is pretty clear like don't inflict pain on other people like don't inflict pain on children like don't inflict pain on

someone else like without consent obviously so like with the cuisine example like yeah we all accept that there's a lot of cuisines but then everyone accepts like don't eat humans you know like cannibalism is wrong no matter where you are but for some really from for some religions, eating pigs is like a completely total sin, right? For other people, their praise and have like holidays around it. Yeah, exactly. So it's just different. And also this version of sort of sexual belief in America is not there.

It's such a like small snippet of human history. You know what I mean? So if it's more like a Christian-based, more conservative perspective, It's also relatively new to their entire history. Yeah, of course. Like Roman times are very different, you know, like how that is viewed versus today. So that's what's the fun part about it. It's quite flexible.

Do you have hard lines like that you think all people within the sex community should abide by? Like I mentioned mine before. I'm curious if there's like an agreed upon one or if you have one specific. Put other people's well-being above your desires. I think that's like the most important golden rule that ever, ever teach a bro. Like, if you could actually exercise that, that makes you a man. That you will forego your chances of getting lay for the sake of her wellness should be the base rule. Right.

Not even the rule to achieve to. It's sort of the base requirement because you will want your sister, your wife, your cousin to be treated that way, right? Yeah, of course. So as long as that, the well-being part is sticking care of, then it should be negotiated, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And especially within like BDSM or like people that might have like rape fans. or things like that that I think the average person might see

is like kind of extreme. I think people will get those things crossed up or they're like, oh, this person has this fantasy, so therefore I can do it. And it's like, well, no, because then you're putting your desire above their well-being. So there still needs to be a conversation and consent even within those fantasies.

I think people sometimes have a hard time with that. And those fantasies is somewhat common and on top of it is kingsters have developed such beautiful comprehensive protocols to how to do that safely in a way that serves, you know, both party. So it's not like we haven't found ways to like sex hacks that really works. You know, if you're into this, is how you do it safely. Right. You know, for more fun.

And it's been to so many trial and error that is pretty, like the rules are, the protocols are pretty good. Systematized. Yeah. And they're healthy. So there is things to learn. And, you know, when like people, sometimes when they introduce me, they're like, they introduce me from GQ because they use that line all the time.

like the greatest sex hacker from GQ. But most people misinterpreted the idea of a sex hacker. They just think I'm like hack into your phone to see your booby pictures or whatever the case may be. Yeah, that's a tricky word. Yeah, a tricky word. But sex hacking been around forever. Like you think about like Kama Sutra to like Taoist tradition when it comes to sex, to Shibari art from Japan to there is in the Victorian era when they invented the vibrator

to birth control. So there's different methods and ideas that people have. elevated the experience of sex, you know. So I just love collecting like the best stuff that actually work and then and also use modern science to invent some. But there's so many try and true amazing way to make that experience better. So like I use all those sound bites all the time, but we're all born hungry, but not everyone's know how to cook.

And there's so many recipes that been developed for so long. But we just decided that there's like, oh, I'm just going to go all instinct. on this one, you know? Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I'm curious. Do you know what the original like purpose of the comma sutra was? Like, I always see that and it's like crazy sex positions, but like was there a function like back in the day for that book specifically? The tantra size is really more of, I don't want to oversimplify it. I might butcher their, their idea, but it's really about embodiment and your connection to allowing their relationship with pleasure and experiencing pleasure in your life and your body. And what I found with sexuality,

that is so beautiful, is that it does actually engages all your senses. And it does, if you have in good sex, it really put you in a state of mind that is really unique. That is otherwise, if people are kind of chasing the same experience doing drugs, right? But you could put yourself in that state where it's extremely pleasurable. You are extremely like engaged and embody. And it's a very useful way to learn how to like train, like train your mind and your body. I wrote in the book all about, like, I think fighters are really good in sex for, and especially, like, combat sport fighter. And the reason being is that you would think that, like, fighting is about violence, right?

Like, you're just, like, being aggressive and punching, but it's really about having voluntary control in a state where you're really excited. So you can be too excited, too angry, and you cannot be too sleepy and too relaxed. So you've defined this Yin and Yang balance of navigating that state where you could make. smart decision from your subconscious. And like, and you're able to tap into that. And that's what makes to me, what makes a good lover. They already drilled it enough that they're not actually thinking while they're doing it, but like the things are working through them, but they're managing their state.

Interesting. Yeah. It's that balance you were talking about where it's like kindness, gentleness, but also assertiveness. And when to do those things. And if you're able to subconsciously know that, that's where you're great in anything. Like, that's where like the perfect athlete knows exactly, like a football player, knows exactly how fast I have to run in order to catch the ball. That's fly.

Like, there's all these, like, triangulations of that exact thing. And you've done it long enough that it's just completely subconscious. Yeah. And it's, you know, like, it's such a beautiful blend when you're able to do those things simultaneously or like, blend them together. So you could say, you could say something to a girl in the most assertive, demanding voice. But if what you say is that, look, listen, I need you. to speak up whenever you feel uncomfortable or don't want to do something.

Do you understand? So you could say the nicest thing in that tone that is such a turn on. Interesting. It's when you use it, right? So you could be spanking, right? And it's creating this excitement and emotional emergency, which arouses the sympathetic nervous system,

but you could also be very caring the next moment. And what's beautiful about, like, I mean, I'm a big fan boy of Andrew Hoover, and he talks in when he mentioned, Dopamine Nation, Anna's book, about how the dopamine system work, what I think Sakshacker has figured out is that the contrast is what makes it beautiful. So if you are jumping into your eyes bath, the relief of pain is quite pleasurable, but your capacity for pain is only when you stretch the range.

So what we learn is that in order for pleasure, the precursor for pleasure is pain in some level or the lack or the absence of. So you're able to, if you pleasure, pleasure, pleasure, pleasure all the time, it gets boring. Right. So it's able to have the highs and the low engineer in a way that you create their, like, it's like chasing the dragon. You can't take the same drug and expect the same result. So they figure out how to have those, the lever pull on both sides in order to optimize their capacity for pleasure. Yeah, of course.

Like comedy, music is the same way. Yeah. Like the perfect note isn't perfect without like the silence that goes before it. Yeah. Like you need, like, with comedy is the same thing. Like you need to build tension in order to release it. Yeah. And if it's just like joke, joke, joke, funny line, funny line, full line, it gets exhausting.

Yeah. But you almost need like troughs to get the peaks. Yeah. And I guess it's interesting when you put the analog into like maybe BDSM sex where it's like there is intentional displeasure consensually in order to evoke the equal and opposite pleasure. It's not necessarily the pain is not pleasurable. It's like eating spicy food. like, do you interpret that sensation as painful and is context driven?

And that's like, like, maybe I'm being too much of a sex nerd, like Emily Lagoski's book about come as you are talking about like James Fow's system, the excitatory inhibitory is like gas on break on sex, right? What determined arousal for most people is context driven. So it's not just the act. Like we're not looking at like genital rubbing genitals. right? It's like what is happening? How is this happening and what context this is happening? So it's not so specific to the act is your relationship and the nuance with that act that makes it different.

So same exact experience could feel so different for people like that force feeding state situation. So when you're when you're educated about stuff like this, and again, it's not that complex and it's quite not easy to learn, but it's not that big of an investment, then you realize there's another layer. Like, if you don't know comedy, like you see the matrix, right? When you go watch another guy set like he's doing their punchline here, is doing the setup. But if you don't understand the science and the art form at all, you're just like taking it for a ride. But once you know, you could really curate.

And I think one of the biggest problem in this generation, and I sound like, oh, man, when I say that, I'm 42, is that we're in such consumer culture that we only consume arousal, we consume sexuality. So we are just this passive observer of sexuality. We don't know how to create. We don't know how to generate. Like they just on YouTube listening to comedy,

and that's their entire experience. It's very different than going on stage and do your set. Right. But you, so, but what most people practice, right? And that's the conditioning bit, it's just observing. Yeah, and they don't realize how fulfilling it is to create. Yeah, and they have, like, but once they know, like, how to create, so the tools I like giving people is like,

I don't want you to be in just on their passive seat. Like, I want you to be in the arena. And in order for you to do that, you need to develop the skill to understand this. And for most people, like, this part of their life is quite important. I think a lot of people will live very happily never doing a set, right, comedy show because that's more niche. But sexuality, hopefully, is a decent part of their lives. So it's worth that you have more than just being a passenger, you know, and learn how to create. So what are the sexual tools that most people neglect in their sexual relationship?

Like, what are things that the average person could do to enhance their sex life? Well, I work with a, my focus is on female pleasure. So, again, sex is, like, so diverse. But I want to, I think the most important tool is, first you have to understand that how are people differ, right? Individual differences, like the wiring bit and having, and give them what that person desire. But the joke I always tell people is that imagine you are a straight guy.

And you're in college and you're just hooking up randomly. And it's bizarre reverse world where the girls like all of a sudden you're hooking up, you're making out and she's putting on a strap on. Right. And you never had butt sex in your whole life. And you're a straight guy. And she's like, okay, so I'm going to fuck your ass and I expect you to come. And if you dare touch your penis, I slap your hand and go like, that's not how real man come.

Right. And then you'd be like, what the fuck, right? Yeah. And if you think about most women, what they have to deal with is penetrated. sex is not the most reliable way for this person's orgasm. And some people do. So some gay men bottom all day, right? Just put a dick and ass. Right. But if you're wire on the other side, like most human, the external gland, like the clearest and the head of the penis, same, same. So we're actually all born with the clearest that turn into the penis. But imagine

you shame, like your partner's shame you for touching your penis to get good sex. So touch the goddamn clit for God's sake is very, very important. The other. thing is how they decide how they prefer that touch might varies but once you find it just stay consistent that's the other thing is like a rhythmic motion and to get your body your brain into the state called entrainment is where orgasm kind of happen like in this flow state so the most annoying thing is the interruption when you get it and it is a is a predictable error that when you see a girl responding you go like this is where I bust out the next move whatever move is working just keep doing it would be my biggest tip, you know, to touch that.

And also ask the person, like, what is the most reliable way for you to come? And that's how this person has practice and why are most of the time. And so you go to the lowest hanging foot first. Like, this is how this person come most of the time or not. Like some people are having a hard time orgasm, period. And then after you learn the more reliable stuff, the predictable, then you could daisy chain other experiences. and you could teach your body new way to have orgasm. So for example, one of the ways that I teach people how to have,

learn how to have orgasm from different stimulation. So the most popular is how to get from like internal sensation or fucking. So the way to do it is use a reliable way that you, most reliable way for that person to come, edge them as in don't let them orgasm. So have a couple of warm up orgasm. So it's relaxed. And for most females, it's quite easy.

a majority could a smaller refractory period but what you do is you want to edge that person maybe it's a vibrating major finger maybe it's just time to get them as close as possible don't orgasm introduce the other stimulation simultaneously and just keep reducing their most reliable

you know when you're about to come everything feels amazing get to that state and then a wire a new sensation to that state then your brain will create that connection that I could come this way right to a different nerve ending, to a different set of nerves, and then the brain learn, oh, I could come that way too.

But it requires a level of training and intention to reach a different part of your body, to associate it with sexual sensation. And I talk about prostate a lot. Like, I don't, you know, a lot of straight men would think, oh, if I have any butt sex that makes me feel gay and all that stuff, no matter how straight you are in your entire life, I think it's really important for any man to play with their prostate for one reason.

I don't know, Kenneth. No, and this is my, and I'm going to try to at least a couple of times for this one reason. And I don't mean by being pegged. I don't mean, I think you should do it yourself, not with other people. But to understand what internal sensation feels like for the other person is really important because you cannot relate until you understand that when you are fucking her, right? Her G spot or cervix is very similar to the. that sensation and then when you have you only would develop empathy real kind of empathy when

you have that internal sensation yourself and the other side is that like for people uh for male body you could you don't know what it's like to have a multiple orgasm until you experience one and you cannot relate until you understand that you actually have two sets of not two sets but like two there's more ways than two but like for your prostate to have an orgasm is a completely different sensation. It's like more radiating full body, more relaxing to it. So if, so one hack that I teach a lot of guys is that same thing. They're trying to masturbate with their penis. They know how to do it for, you know, they have a lot of practice. Edge themselves and then stimulate their prostate and don't let their penis come, right? I know. It sounds crazy. And as soon as they have a prostate

orgasm and they keep stroking the head of their cock, they will have a penile orgasm back to back from their prostate to their penis. And then they will understand the science that you could have this experience of like having two orgasms, different nerve ending, and they could be blended. They could have it together. But it's two separate experiences. And until they know, they don't know, and they would never fuck anyone the same way again once they know. Bro.

I mean, that's kind of a big ass that you got to explain to your girl. Yeah, yeah. I'm finger in my ass for you. Okay. I'm banging myself to understand how you feel. She's like, what? Yeah, you'd be surprised on how it, it changes your perspective because I don't look at like, like they're which part of your body touching does not represent your sexual orientation.

But the distinction is from like a nerd science perspective is that you understand how those wiring are actually wire and what that person actually feel. It might not be exactly like you. But once you do, you're more likely to give her an internal orgasm if that's what you, you both are into by that understanding. Right. So if you don't know, it's like you are vegetarian chef who never tastes meat. Like you don't have to eat it all the time, but you kind of have to know, like, what it tastes like.

That's a big ask, though. Yeah. That's a big ask. I know. Well, we'll see how many men will be like, all right, I'll give it a shot. But maybe more than I know. I don't know. I don't think I'm at that level.

That's, why? Why? If you don't mind me. I don't know. It just seems, it's very, it seems very strange to me. Like, for me to do it to myself, at least. Like, that idea would be, it would make me feel vulnerable, I think. It is quite vulnerable.

And I understand. And I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, stigma of that idea, like if you're into that sensation. But I like how Laurie Mince talks about their pleasure gap. Like most men would die perfectly happy without ever having an internal orgasm or prostate orgasm. You would agree with that statement. Yeah, I think I'm probably one thing I might be on. And they won't like cry in their deathbed about it. Right. Yeah. Now imagine you have that same expectation for your female partner. Like she's not a real woman until she could have an orgasm from penetration. Right. So I think that.

That is the, that's where it's like, as a hypocritical behavior. Right. Because of that. So ultimately, I just want men to understand. It doesn't matter if she come, like how you come, which is touching the head of the clip or the penis. Yeah. Or she prefers internal or she prefers both. Yeah.

All preferences is legit. The hypocrisy makes sense. Yeah. A guy that's like, I don't even know. Maybe there are guys that are fucking idiots that are like, oh, you didn't come from my dick. Like, you're not a real girl. Like, I mean, that's stupid. Over-emphasizing that is quite problematic.

And also it creates a world where, like, straight women and have the least satisfaction when it comes to sex, both hook up in long-term relationship. Yeah, because of that. Yeah, that makes complete sense. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I always thought it was crazy that girls would just hook up, like, one-offs, like in college. I'm like, what are you getting out of this? Like, he's coming. You're not.

Like, you almost never come in a hookup. Like, the girls I knew in college, like, they were like, yeah, it never happens. I'm like, why are you doing this for? Like there's a disordinated risk. Like you're like going home with a random guy to not come. I'm like, dude, that does not seem worth it to me. Yeah. And, you know, people have sex for different reasons.

Sometimes it's about connection, getting no people. Sometimes it's like being a star fucker. Like I got this person into bed and there's so many reason. But I, what I'm trying to create is a world where if most women, even in the most casual of hookup in a straight women's context, they're having the best sex of their lives. Right. They're just more likely to have more sex. And for selfish reason, if you want more people to have more sex,

it's like making sure their sex is good is a great idea. Yeah. So if there's more men out there contributing to their better sex equation, then the women want to go out there and have more sex than everybody wins. Yeah, of course. Yeah, that's a good example. Yeah. So I'm going to read the book.

Yeah. And then I'm going to fully understand, I think, what you're saying about bang my own asshole. Yeah. I'm going to check it out. Obviously, this is beyond satisfied. Yeah. It seems thick, I'll be honest. I think there's a lot of good info in here.

QR codes, the whole deal. But I designed it like intuitive video game tutorial. So it's about like skill tree. So you work it down. So you don't have like the thing I just show you is like down there is the skill tree. But the idea is that you could take one single lesson and apply them. And then the more skill you develop is like having more recipe in your repertoire. So you could cook more dishes.

But so you start with the foundation and you work your skill tree down. But also, because I'm such an education nerd, I put QR code into like make it into like more digestible lessons. And also I think I send you a copy already of their video course that accompanied the book. So there's actually video demonstrating those techniques. So it's like sometimes it's really hard to translate word on a page. Yeah, of course. That's why I put the QR code so I could show some animation when it moves on how it actually moves, both externally and internally. But it is so mind-blowing to me.

Like when someone, they didn't know their whole life that all they need to do with just a little bit of that. Yeah. And it can unlock an entire world that you didn't even know was there. Yeah. And for all the listener, like here's another fun sex hack for most straight guy when you finger someone or any internal sensation. It's not the in and out motion that creates the sensation for most people. It's pressure. So those nerves are pressure sensitive.

So learn to create the right amount of pressure and rhythm is way more useful. and for most, for many straight women, they never had their G-spot stimulated in a way that is enough pressure for their brain to register as like, oh, this is a good kind of sensation. And we underestimate how much pressure the vagina could take. So like if you're able to massage it, like really massage it,

you will see the difference and go like, oh, I just never did it that way. And it's like worlds apart from, from, and if it's like, The pressure thing is really funny because there's this nerdy term called sensory threshold. You have to pass the threshold in order for the sensation to register. So until then, you might never hurt that note until you heard it for the first time. So it's like, oh, I didn't know that thing does that. Yeah.

Okay. Another thing that I wanted to ask from the man side, we talked a lot about pleasuring women. Okay. So enough with that. But like for men specifically, two things. What would you prescribe to men that have erectile dysfunction? where they can't get it up? And then what do you prescribe to men

that have premature ejaculation? Which premature ejaculation? I'm like, my buddy Hans Kim, he's a comedian. He has this thing. He's like, premature to who? You know what I mean? Like, I can't even right when I needed to. So I'm curious.

What are your thoughts on those two things? Okay, so first thing is about ed, erectile dysfunction. So there's two different, there's psychological ED is that they are in a stress state when they cannot, like they don't feel aroused

because they have stress and they're feeling anxiety. That's different than they can biologically. Like, if they masturbate, they could get it up, but they can't do it in front of a partner. They have to deal with the mindset and the psychological aspect of it. This is you in the bathroom. Yeah, yeah. And that's their whole fighter mindset.

You have to learn how to be calm in a stressful state, right? And I teach this hack what pro athlete used not to choke. So you could think of it like a quarterback about to, this is the Super Bowl moment. If I fuck this up, right, it'd be done. So it's a dot loop that this person might have. If I go like, if I miss this shit, it's going to be over, like my career, I work so hard for this. I'm nowhere going to make it. So it's the negative self-talk.

It would definitely destroy that moment. So that's why you are losing a reaction because you are feeling that way, whatever the chatter is, right? And the negative chatter is go like, I should be hard. I'm not hard. And the first thing to do is accept that you are not hard right now and you don't need to be hard because your dick is responding correctly to fear. right it's not a it's not a wrong respond it's the correct respond yeah your body's afraid pull everything into the entorral organs it's small yeah so it's doing its job so your first thing is to know that it's not fucking up it's doing its job based on the state that you're in and in order to

alter that state you have to first reach a level of acceptance because if you resist it would definitely persist and two it's like being sleepy you can't force yourself to be sleepy it just happens when the environment produces itself so if you think of it as sleep and also the anxiety. But the second part is, as soon as you're in the place of acceptance, your job is not to make yourself hard, right? But rather, you refocus your mind to things that arouses you. So you take a moment and go like,

my dick is going to be hard when it gets hard, and it gets hard when I'm arouse, right? So that's the other formula. Then you go back into the activity that arouses you. So eroticize her, objectify. Like if you really like boobs, if you really like whatever, fantasize. So there is something called psychogenes,

arousal, or you could think of fantasy or focusing on elements of that sexual experience that arouses you. And if you truly not arouse, no matter what is happening, maybe you shouldn't be having sex right now because it's not doing it for you. So there's this cultural expectation when sex is available, men should want it and there should be hard immediately. And that is definitely a myth. But again, their most useful hack is to calm your nervous system and literally just be a pervert,

which we know how to do. It's like your point hub scroll. Get into that moe, find the thing you want, and play it. And then once you run that script, then your script, you know that script works. You just have to get back onto that script. So when the best athlete, they know when they're optimally functioning, they just have to find themselves back into that state. So I believe a lot of psychological ED could be trained like an athlete to get into,

and then you could find that again. Not easy to do. So I'm not saying this is easy to do, but it's definitely doable. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I just, I know so many guys that are like, dude, I couldn't get it up and I was about to hook up with this girl. So I had to like go to the bathroom, like watch porn and then come back.

And so I guess that's tapping into like almost like the pervert thing you're talking about. We're like they are like going into the script that they know works to then perform in this fearful situation. But the unfortunate side effect of consuming porn and I'm not against. I'm like I'm not on the anti-poena side. And there's still, the science is up to debate about, like, how much conditioning you have about, like, consuming porn. But the distinction is that if your only reliable arousal script is consuming passively on a screen, then what is not happening is that when you associate sex is no longer this thing that arouses you all the time is the problem. So you have to learn how to create arousal not from a passive observer point of view.

You have to be engaged. And you lose that with porn. That was like always my issue with porn is that it's purely selfish. Like ideally sex is both parts giving and receiving. And porn is just purely receiving. It's purely just like, let me observe, let me take it in, let me just have this. Whereas I think sex in its purest form is reciprocity and it is like a union. It's a dance between two people.

And then if you're only in a passive consumer level, it's really hard. So I think encouraging men who struggle with this to, first of all, it's okay to suck at sex too. So it's okay that you stumble if you have a supportive loving partner. Like, it's okay to take a period of time to rewire yourself. So I'm not on this like never masturbate like a semen retention camp. But if you always ejaculate all the time, do masturbation and you're lowering your sex drive and your desire because you're more satiated. So create some hunger, like the pain thing that we talk about. So create their absence of to drive your desire for.

right and at the same time learn to feel that oh i use this aid all the time that is my only script and i want to expand my script so i'm going to focus on this and let that that period of time when it's like it doesn't feel because you are comparing your love of arousal from your like watching porn to this situation if you making that that comparison then you go like why is this thing not doing as well as this thing that i'm so comfortable with and that transition pair will take a little bit of time, but we're not talking about that long. Like, I think most reconditioning takes like two weeks to a month for your nervous system to recalibrate. So it's about calibrating things. Relatively quick. Yeah, but if you, but if you reinforce, meaning that you feel

like real life sex, I suck and I do this, and you do this one over and over again, and you start have a negative association with that, and then we'll make your ED worse because you're just reinforcing that loop. So it takes a little bit of time, like if you never worked out in your life and you hate working out, you have to go to the gym in the beginning, not kill yourself, but like, get into the rhythm of it. And most people underestimate that early price that you pay for conditioning, and then it becomes, oh, I feel bad if I don't go. You definitely need that adaptation period. Is that a good indicator, like, if you're not able to get hard without porn, that maybe you should try to wean off of it for a period? Yeah. And also explore, given in the right partner,

right? It's also like an accessibility convenient problem, right? Because it's so convenient on the other side and engaging with another human seems so difficult. It is inherently more difficult because there requires giving. And ultimately, I think it depends on that person. Like what, like, what would you, how would you want your sex life to be? You are definitely, you could have reliable great point help sex on your phone all day, every day. And if you want partner sex or engaging in real sexes, if you value that, then invest in the training and the condition then it would take you to find, like to develop that arousal. Yeah. Do you think the accessibility of porn has partially led to the decrease in sex that

young people are having? I don't know if they have a study that truly proved that is a causality of those two, but I suspect that it definitely has an impact because of the convenient factor. Like if you feel the need, but you could order it, like people cook less because they order of food. Yeah, exactly. I think that that correlation is very, very possible. But it's like Michael Portwell, this book about cooking,

like selling people on the act of cooking. I think it's really important. Just selling people, go for God's sake, like have the other version too. Yeah. And find the joy in creating. Like, I think that's the biggest thing. And I completely get it.

If you're like 18-year-old kid, you're in college, you know, something, and you can either go to a bar or a club or go to a thing, try to meet someone, try to flirt with them, get rejected maybe. Maybe there's a spark. Maybe you guys can hook up and have sex. That process is a thousand times harder than opening your phone. Yeah, but the surprising thing is when you're good in bed, it really changes everything. There is, you know, like, when you're a good comedian, you walk into a comedy club,

there's a swagger about you that you just, it's different. Yeah. So I think the struggle. is only if you don't invest in your ability. But if you're good in bed, you just don't have the same level of anxiety going into the situation and your confidence come from a level of competence, right?

Like, no, it's not like you fake it, or you make it kind of thing. When you have it, it becomes, it's so accessible because it's such a lack in the marketplace. Like, it's so rare for straight guys to be good in bed. And you're good. And if you live in my world,

I get tons of referral sex because of it. from other girls who sleeps with me and go like, oh, my girlfriend wants to play with you from referral, which is a bizarre, like, idea in other, other community. But referral sex happens all the time in our community. So you do have like a micro Yelp review inside our community that your reputation, that part matter because you're doing it in a social setting. There are downside of apps that you could treat someone like shit and no one would know about it. So in my side, it's like very transparent. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. So that's the ED part? Yeah. What about the premature part? Well, I'd rather end premature penetration than

premature ejaculation. So I think far more people were trying to fuck before she's ready. So I'm just make that joke about premature penetration is the worst. So don't do that. But premature ejaculation, it also determined, are we talking about like five seconds to what people think like four minutes, right? So premature is that time is really like how long are we talking about? Like most people from straight, like just continuous stimulation when it's good, right? It's not really last like in porn forever. It's like, I don't know, anywhere from four to nine minutes is average for most people.

So when people are comparing that to all light and all, like you should fuck all night, that's not the case. However, back to the fighter analogy, in order for you to have orgasm, you have to have enough sympathetic arousal. So is that excitement phase, right, that you could learn how to manage how much of that, that excitement built in your body. So my own coach, Dustin Garrick, who wrote Evolve Masculine, has this amazing program to teach people how to manage the amount of arousosos that they could last longer, meaning you reach your tipping point. You could slow down the way you reach your tipping point.

And I want to separate the idea of climax. So when you reach a tipping point, you reach a point of no return and then you just have an orgasm, right? The subjective experience of having pleasure and orgasm could be elevated by the amount of excitement and sensation that you could hold in your body without tipping over. So if you look at a different context, it's like when you say build up with tension and comedy and then release of tension. So orgasm happened in the same way they're building and releasing. So it's how much you could build before you reach the point that you have to release. is malleable. But the difference is we are all born with a different level of excitatory, inhibitory system

where you talk about the gas and brake. For some people, they have no brick and their gas just like once they push, they're redlining immediately. So they might reach that threshold much earlier, right? Some people have to, like, their brakes are always on and they can't even get turned on and their accelerator is so slow. It takes them forever. So those people, you have to train it in reverse.

But we're all born with that system. excitatory is that's a row of a dice. But it's really fucked up to shame men who just happen to have a like higher accelerator and no breaks. Like in women, we celebrate the shit out of them because they come like if you sneeze, right? They come over and over again because they're born with that nervous system in the right body. Right. But for men, if you have that system right now, then you're ashamed because you cannot last.

You make fun of that guy. And also there is, but we are. also never give men the tools to understand those experiences. Like, you feel it when you are getting there. And if you are not conscious, meaning you're not paying attention. So it's really good to be in body when you are absorbing your experience. But when you could be an observer of your experience and you could go like, oh, this is where I need to slow down. You know, or this is where I need to take a breath.

Or this is where I need to like, and this is how. how energy, I actually don't love those terms, but like when you feel the energy building in your body or the sensation building on your body, their default involuntary respond is to build and contract, right, to create more tension. So you reach the point of release. What men don't realize is that you could learn to relax

when your body default system is conditioned to contract. So for example, if I poke you at, in the eye right now, you will blink automatically. But if I tell you not to blink and you pay attention not to blink, you could override it. So that's why you use sex hack a lot. You could learn to override some default settings if you learn how to control the part. It's like having a super user access.

But those hacks works when you realize there is another thing that you can control from those experiences. So the key is actually relax more, right? and accept everything and chase nothing is like very fighting philosophy. But it is you could learn to have ejaculatory choice if you train it. And I have seen men who suffered out their entire life who worked on it and it's not easy. Like with Dustin Skarek's group, like, I'm mind blown. Like fortunately, I don't suffer from like dealing with like coming too early for most of my life.

It's not a struggle for me. But I have seen men like it's just devastating for them, right? to disappoint their partner and then realize they could actually train it to a point they could choose to come when they want to come. And I think that skill is definitely workable and you could develop it. And humans have been doing it for centuries, you know, on how to do those things. So you could adapt some of the ancient technique to like mix it with a little bit of modern science and it works really well.

But it's not a small investment when it comes to male sexuality. Because the only downside is that because when we do ejection, the prolactin release in our brain is basically where we have to, it's game over for now, for this moment. Yeah. So you could still actually have orgasm without the ejaculation part. So you have to learn to separate their ejaculation from their subjective experience of orgasm. So you could learn to not trigger their, yeah, and then also have orgasm.

So there's guys who learn to have multiple orgasm, not with their prostate thing. Maybe that's too fancy, too fabulous. but you could learn to separate them and it took a long time for me to learn to have the early stage of that so it is a challenge but it's definitely doable it seems like a lot of mindfulness like i feel like you're almost speaking like meditative terms yes so that's why all the tantra and all their like look a little new agey for that bit but there there's a level of relaxation and control and like when you're trying to regulate something, like you would start to understand like when you're trying to inhibit something, right, versus you're trying to get it more exciting.

If you don't understand the gas and the brick, you're just kind of like in the back seat. That's the problem. Yeah, you're just along for the ride. But soon as you know how those two pedals work, right, then you could play around and you could have just enough, you know? And I feel like that's like what most animals do. Like you watch like animals have sex on like National Geographic or Discovery Channel. Like they're just going 20 seconds, boom, they're running away.

Like it's very much like a primal like your boss. body's just naturally doing that. Whereas we have the consciousness and the mindfulness to sort of separate that behavior and sort of suppress it. Yeah. What is the best thing for relaxing? Like, if a dude's listening, he's like, okay, how do I relax? It's like breathing?

Is it just like mindfulness? Like, is it, what could you do? I mean, breath is so classical, right? Because you could pay attention to that sensation of breath going in and out. But more importantly, you have to, so there's this term, science term, called interoception. I think Hoover and talked about it too. It's like everything inside your skin. You're feeling the sensation of your own body.

So if you close your eyes right now and you pay attention to the tingling sensation on your calves, it has been there this entire time. But we haven't put any of our bandwidth into that particular place on our body. The second thing is that relaxation is a skill. So you literally see if you could relax your lower back a little bit more. And then you would start to notice, oh, I tend to. this way on this is what it feels like to relax. So you don't have a certain awareness of when things are contracting and when you start masturbating

and you pay attention, you go like, oh, I do this thing all the time or I do this thing all the time. And you go like, if I learn when that involuntary thing is happening and you can learn to override it, then you gain voluntary control. So it's just really about manipulating something involuntary into voluntary. Do you meditate a lot? I wish I meditate more and I find that I find flow state in doing like sex stuff or like varied things that require all my concentration, the easiest hack for me to do like get into a meditated state. But it's definitely usually is not sitting there

observing nothing. Yeah. It's being really intensely focused on whatever a activity is is my preference. Yeah, I've heard that from a few people. Like that's all I like motorcycles. It's like I drive a bike and I like it for the reason that it requires all of my focus. Yeah. Like you don't have a choice. It is like life or death. If I'm thinking about something else, if I'm checking my phone, that could be my life. That's the exact skill when you know how you got into that state, right? And then you know the importance of getting in the state. So if you learn whatever that, you know, when in sex, if you learn to tap into that, right,

but you also have to like have to mind cycle, like, this is dangerous. I need to do this. So you have to like, it's a mind trick on a motorcycle. It's more real, right? It's like happening right now. Yeah. So you just could learn to like tap into that would or without you being on the bike is the key. Interesting.

Yeah. And your vice documentary, I thought was very cool. It came out fairly recently like the last couple months. Yeah. The whole focus on it was just squirting. Yeah. That's the whole thing. So do you teach classes for this?

That's how I actually became a sex educator. I was like upset. Can I tell you a quick funny story? So I was at a party, right? And I was super still sexually insecure at that time, but I was like trying to navigate and learning. Then I saw this guy in the corner of the room, right? And this like beautiful woman lining up with him like crazy line. I'm like, what is happening?

And I see a bunch of girls squirting and like having orgasm. And I'm like, no way. And I look at that guy. It's like he's not that hot. Dick is no bigger than mine. There's no billionaire. Like, what is happening? So then he has this one party trick that he makes a bunch of girls squirts.

So I became like obsessed about learning about this thing. And thank God later, I realized that it's not just a party trick and he is the whole voluntary and voluntary thing. But ultimately, what I realized in that moment is a skilled thing when it comes to like those things. So I got so deep in that rabbit hole, I became the expert on like deconstructing all the squirting technique that I ever saw. And then I studied.

it like a scientist that go like this is the most reliable this is what is required and it's from my fitness background so then I got invited to teach squirting for a sex party if I'm an organizer and I was still really sexually insecure at that time and I was like no way I'm going to teach sex but I go like I don't mind skill sharing is what I have learned for you know the last two years so all of a sudden I'm in this beautiful penhouse of a sex party there's like 16 15 couples in the room and they never squirted before and I'm about to teach this thing And I was really nervous because I taught fitness for a really long time. It was comfortable showing movement or whatever the case being, leading a room.

But I didn't realize that I could get into group flow with a bunch of people where I could synchronize their experience. Like when you go to a wave or like a festival, you could just get into the same beat with arousal as well. And all of a sudden I have a room of people where I'm like coaching them the technique and adjusting everybody like a yoga class. And then all of a sudden, 15 people were squirting for the first time, like, de Bellagio in a penthouse hotel. And I just had an epiphany at that moment go like, wow, I didn't know that I could teach this. I didn't know that it's that effective that quickly. And then I love teaching fitness, but it takes fucking forever to get any results. So that's when my career was born.

And since then, because it's how over-glorify on porn and the internet. But I love teaching squirting for a couple of reasons. One, I get to talk about sex myths. Like, here's the real science. Here's all the bullshit. It is pee. Yeah. Yeah.

So you have their people think it's only pee in that cam. And then other signs, the ski scrant, and then their bladder being filled up with liquid faster. But without what I brought you with their signs, what is really interesting about squirting specifically is about what I shared earlier. about pressure, is dialing enough pressure and enough speed and also stimulating the clit and the G spot at the same time, that is a really good lesson for the person who's providing the pleasure. And then the other side is that on the receiving end, right, remember, it's all context-driven into what we feel. So in order for that sensation to feel good to people's body, they have to be in this receptive, relaxed, trusting state where they're allowing their body to do what it wants to do.

So the lesson for the receiver is to not to control, right, or control something else. So for example, when you feel that squirting sensation, which a lot of women have felt in their life, right, but what they associate that feeling is I'm going to pee on my partner. So what they subconsciously do is that they hold it, right, because they feel the embarrassment of, you know, I don't want to pee on my partner or whatever the case may be, whatever their association is. And that inhibitory behavior is what prevents them from having orgasm and pleasure in the first place. So my goal when I teach squirting is to teaching people how to relax those pelvic full of muscle or bear down a little bit to go with it in order for that sensation to be registered as pleasure and it could build up to orgasm.

So I could coach two people at the same time on like many important lessons. So one is like biomechanic, don't get your hand all burnout. out and the other one is about allowing. So one of my favorite story when I was working with a model doing a demo teaching and we were just rehearsing. And she said that, you know, like, like I was practicing where she squirted and she started crying. And a lot of, and I was like, oh, so many girls cry after squirting for the first time.

And I was like, was this like some science to it? And ultimately when I talked to her, she's like, you know, similar story. Like when I first start having sex, I have those sensations. And as soon as I feel them, I just feel embarrassed and I clamp up. So this is the first time I ever just let go. And the whole idea of letting go, as in surrendering to a receptive state. And she goes like, this is the first time I just follow my body instead of trying to control my body. And she's like, it feels really good to trust my own body is the lessons for her.

Interesting. So is this crying like just the release of tears? Or are they actually like crying because they just accepted their body? Accepted their body. I think that's, I think that is. I mean, obviously, I don't live in their body, so I can't say for sure, but it's a relief that you no longer have to hold your fart, right? Like, kind of fucking.

I've cried about that. Yeah, yeah. So, like, letting go and surrendering. It's not even about the other person, right? It's about, like, I don't want to feel embarrassed or shame. Obviously, not arousing. It's not very different than a guy who couldn't get it up, right? Because he's thinking he's going to be humiliated or embarrassed.

So teaching people not to be in that state. And also, like, sort of the nerve stuff is really fun, too, because one state. touch their G spot or A spot at the right, calibrate to the right level to that person. It's really a-ha moments. Like, oh, hello. And it requires both parties to be on board with it. Like, you can't just teach one of the other. Yes.

And, but it's fun teaching a group class like this because it's much easier to follow the group than to do this independently. So it's like, most people like to go to a spin class or like for that group experience because they don't have to think and lead. So when I'm coaching couples online or in person, they don't have to, they could be in the consumer, between the consumer mode and engagement mode, which is like the hyper between the two.

So I could kind of like ease them into the experience and then just give them drills like any group fitness instructor would do and eventually just fall into not thinking because they're doing a thing. Interesting. And so I'm sure there's some women listening that are like, oh, I can't. It's not possible for me to do that. Do you think it's possible for anyone to do it under the right circumstances? Okay.

So first is the definition of square. Is it an explosion of fluid, right, doing a sexual act, right? So if we use that definition, then I think, oh, I've got to get killed for maybe saying this. I hate to use everybody can, like can. And of course, there's some cases that is not true. But I think the best way to explain this to, to, to, to a audience who's not like so sex nerd heavy, if you own a penis, I'm sure that's one time you, your life you had a heart on and you needed to pee.

Were you able to pee when you had a heart on? And most guys would say yes. And how did you do it? It's not natural. Like there's a moment you go like, oh, I need to pee, but I'm hard. And you're trying to aim it. But you somehow find a way to relax it enough to pee. So how this is my hypothesis and mix with scientific fact about the anatomy.

But the ureful sponge, which is the G spot, basically gets swell up doing sexual stimulation to pin down to create pressure against your urethra so liquid cannot escape so the swelling of the g-spot is engorgement right like it's like a tube and the pee the pee hole is right literally suppresses pinching the tube the same thing when you have a heart on when you have a erection you're pinching that tube so it's harder for liquid to come out right but you could override that so technically if you could pee right the idea if you could pee if liquid could come out of your bladder if you learn to not pinch or over like and sometimes your body want to release that liquid like involuntarily that is pleasurable for you. The debate about pee is that what is being created during the time is it like

same household urine that you have every day? Not the case from what we learn from science is that doing sex your your soda sponge and there's also glands that could build up some fluid and that's the milky white substance kind of like a prostate fluid for women and the other stuff is that the liquid that builds up from your bladder will rapidly fill up doing sexual stimulation. Like we like engorgement in that area. So their bladder would build up much faster. So it does in my hypothesis is that it does not go to the same filtration system that you to make urine because the goal is not to make urine.

The goal is just to fill it up. So that liquid inside is way more watery. So the idea is go pee before. So you you want to remove the trace of urine as much as possible. and then your body would build up this liquid doing sex. And for some women, it's extremely pleasurable for that release. For some of them, it does nothing for them. For some of them, they eroticize it.

So I don't think squirting is good or bad. It depends on the personal preference. But I do know for a fact that if you inhibit your sexual function is not a good time. So it's ultimately about letting go. So some women will involuntary or naturally will lean towards the squirting a bit. Right. And they just repress it their whole. life, right? Some people is not their go-to and they have to learn how to do this thing,

but either way is fine. So some people would have a subjective experience while squirting, orgasming while they're squirting. Some has no relation to orgasming. Right. But in general, most people feel better with bodily acceptance. Like allowing your body to flow in whatever way that is, is more pleasurable for most people. It's function acceptance. So you're accepting a function. It's like, oh, I hate myself that I'm really sleepy right now. It's like, okay, I'm tired. I should go to sleep. It's similar to that.

The other way, the body acceptance piece is a completely different. It's a completely different story because what it does is when you don't feel comfortable about your body, right? It's really hard to get sexually aroused because it's such a high inhibit you so much from being aroused when you don't feel good about your body. And that's why it's so tricky with the body positive movement. And I love talking sometimes about controversial topic. The reason that I feel that a lot of women are female fighting for that idea is that if female arousal, and again, could be a gross generalization, but it required for them to feel hot about themselves. So if you, if the message is that you're not hot, it totally kills that game.

So it doesn't matter how you look. But if you don't feel hot, no good sex. So it's to claim your rights to feel good about yourself in order to have pleasurable sex. I'm all for it. Interesting. Right? It's a requirement. It's not even a nice to have.

Like, if you don't feel good, that's why all the genital shame and not feeling good about anything makes, like, bad sex with this gone. Do you think it's more prevalent in women than men, or is it kind of cross the board? It depends on the school you're listening to. But, like, another way to phrase that is that most guys don't understand why dick pick is not arousing to a woman, because, again, not all women, but the idea of arousal on the other side is for them to feel sexy, not for them to see you and get turned on.

Completely different things. So if you really want to turn a girl on, the idea is to make her feel like she's the fucking hottest sexist thing alive, then she'd be aroused as fuck. So it is different. Like, when we get turned on, it's not like, oh, I'm so hot.

Like, that is not usually not the place that our brain go, but on mate selection, on that side, it's about why all the grooming, all the makeup and all the thing is about the attraction, but the feeling inside is that I feel hot. So that's the misunderstanding about female arousal for most guys that did. Another really good hack is make them feel really hot. Yeah, I guess that's the difference between men and women, generally speaking, is that men, I think, are aroused by women and by their bodies, and they think, oh, I want her to be aroused by my body.

But in order for her to accept the arousal of your body, she must first accept that she herself is worth being aroused by. Yeah. And like, you could tell. She's like, I didn't shave my legs. I don't feel comfortable. I'm not turned on. Then tell her to go, oh, honey, let's get you a spa day.

Like, do the thing to help them feel aroused is about their own vanity. And then they will be aroused by you. When they aroused, that's when they look. It's a very, and I don't know if it's always true. But like, soon as they feel sexy, that's when the selfie comes on, that's when they flirt. But until that. moment, they high. Whereas men are almost the opposite, where it's like, I see an attractive person and then

I'm aroused. Whereas for women, it's like, I feel attractive and then I'm aroused. Or they are like more erotica, I mean, women consume way more erotica, right? Reading than, and most erotica is written for women by women, right? So a lot of it is erotic context, the scenario, their idea of like tension being chased. like their scenario. So it's just a different strategy because it's not only based on the visual system. So guys are only visual system majority of times. So if you understand the erotic mind of a woman and you understand this is their precursor to everything, then if you set up the right condition, it's really like magic. Like this is the state. It's like imagine like it's sometimes it's hard to tell women too. Like I'm sorry that you have to deal with male ego.

Yeah. But I don't know what to tell you. If the guy is not into being shame or deck, a degradation or embarrassment, you telling them they suck in bed is not going to encourage them. So in order for this to work in that particular moment, right, don't hackle your comedian on stage, not the right strategy. So then I talk about male confident when I'm coaching the women's side. I go like, I know, I'm sorry, like, I want to live in a world that you can say whatever. Yeah. But if you want men to be a part of it, you have to consider there you go as well. Same thing on the other side. You want her to be turned on. I don't know if you have a. No, no, no, no, I'm good.

This is the last thing I'll ask you, though. I'm curious, what do you believe in, like, this is big quotes, but like sexual energy? Like, you'll meet people and you'll just be like, oh, wow, they exude so much sexual energy. And then I think maybe you'll meet other people and you're like, oh, they don't exude any sexual energy. Like, that is like a colloquialism that people will use. What do you think of that term? I think when people are comfortable with their sexuality is very attractive when they could flirt freely, right? and and and use that as a asset or ability like sometimes I love like how Chinese people phrase things

when someone have a good body they they call it body asset like wealth like this is a this is a this is a value you have so you might be like good looking it's like all good things that you could use right so so um if if if I lost my train of thought about, wait, ask me that one more time? Sexual energy. So when you meet someone that exudes sexual energy or they don't exude sexual energy, what is happening interpersonally that you think why they are someone that is like, oh, wow, this person is sexual and they're attractive to me just based off of their aura.

Back to the, like, feeling comfortable with yourself. So you are more likely to show what you're comfortable with. So when you're embody and you're in touch with your sexuality, that is a very attractive energy. and also about that you just connected my dots. It's about like seduction, right? So when you have a good body or you have, like, it's really a power, right? Look at it out of our sexuality as a power that we could use for good, right, ideally. But it is a power.

So seduction, attraction, sexuality. So when people are really embodied, they could utilize this, hopefully with ethics, right? Or you could utilize it in an evil way too. And the other interpretation of energy is, there's the physical sensation that people feel when they feel like sexual energy building up. And there's actually a quite nerdy scientific explanation for it, especially with the like chakra system. And so when I interviewed Dr. Barry Kermasper, who wrote The Science of Orgasm, he offered me this crazy paradigm shift. Like such a big aha moment is a great way to end this interview.

that so without getting too nerdy like the vagus and hypergastric nerve and for it's a wandering nerve for people to understand it like out spread throughout a body not connected to the spine the vagus nerve but because they're wandering nerve and those nerves are also responsible for the subjective experience of emotion so like the motion part of emotion so you know when you have a feeling you have a physical sensation to, right? Like, I want to cry, I want to laugh, and sometimes it's uncontrollable. Those nerves, kind of like gut-level feeling.

So what happened is, is that when people are blocked, right, or, like, inhibited, they don't let that flow of their own emotion and the function pressure. They're trying to regulate everything, they feel, that habits. So what I realize is that

if you want to train someone to have the most like amazing receptive, type of full body orgasm, they really have to be not only in touch with their emotion, but they allow their body to feel the full range of physical motion and emotion with everything. So the more rigid and the more shut down and more control you are, the harder to have sex. The more you are truly able to let emotion float to your body, then you let that energy, right, that sensation that kind of builds up throughout your whole body, kind of like crying, not very different.

So I don't know. This might be a cancelable opinion or quote, like why people like having sex with like crazy people and they don't want to gender it. The idea is that they're so inhibited. They just feel everything. There's a rawness to their emotion. Yeah, there's a rawness to their feelings. So they're fun because they're not restricted. They're not inhibited by like rules or whatever.

But because of that flow is very hot. But soon as you're trying to control that bit, then the flow is regulated. So, but I don't, I'm not against. regulating, right? I'm like, what I'm preaching is that you could have voluntary control when you want to restrict your emotion because you don't want to cry every day when you feel a feeling, but you also don't want to have no ability to cry when you need to cry. So it's like having that, that flex is really. Chase nothing except everything. Yeah. Yeah. I got a lot to learn. Yeah. I'm going to read up. Thank you so much for chatting with me and sharing your lifestyle and sharing

your work and what you do. And hopefully people that are listening can can learn and unlock part of their sex life that they didn't know they had and hopefully help some of the men specifically that or suffering, you know, dealing with dating and feeling frustrated and getting out of it and obviously helping women that are frustrated and suffering with, you know, sort of an incompatibility with their sex life. So, yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I think what you're doing is awesome.

Thank you so much. I appreciate it.