Camp Gagnon - Netflix Disaster Explained, Arrested Development Secrets, Mr Show | David Cross

Episode Date: May 28, 2024

🏞️ Sign up to Camp for exclusive updates: https://camp.beehiiv.com/David Cross from Arrested Development & Mr. Show discusses playing legendary characters, bombing as a comedian, the Boston comedy scene, and what it was like on the set of Arrested Development. This is the OG Tobias Funke!! Welcome to Camp!!! 🏕️This fall David will tour theaters across North America with his new show, David Cross: The End of the Beginning of the End. Tour dates and tickets are available at Davi...

I will tell you something, and you're hearing it here first. And I think some people have kind of caught this, but it was never addressed, that Tobias is... My fool. Fox would wait until the last possible minute among whether we'd be renewed. You want it to, because you're having such a great time, and you believe in the show,

and that's not a great atmosphere to have when you go to work. They discovered, too late for us, that people were recording it. They were watching it on the weekend, and they were having watch parties. And then the DVDs came out and... made a billion dollars. And we didn't see any of that.

The rest of development got kind of caught up in that shift and, you know, was unfortunately on the other side. I think a lot more people watched it than they realized. And then seasons four and five, when it got picked up by Netflix, they were a little disjointed. It was disjointed intentionally. It was really clever in a Christopher Nolan type way. But I will also say really difficult to follow.

If you have the time, it's really rewarding. And unlike anything, I've seen on TV. The fifth season was a disaster for everybody. I haven't watched it. I won't. Wait. Oh, you have actors who never display this kind of behavior walking off set. I don't want to say too much because...

David. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here, man. I really appreciate it. We already did this. Why do you... It's called, like, Hollywood. It's like...

It's called what? Like, you don't... Did you say Hollywood? Yeah, you kind of fake it. Like, I know, I know we are... Like, people know we didn't just sit down. Yes, I see what you're saying. But my point was, you should have been rolling for the last 10 minutes because I don't know if I'm going to be that prescient, smart, and funny again.

You brought a lot of heat. What the people won't see is David Cross is best. I think that's what I'm saying. You'll see me at my penultimate. Yeah, people didn't tell me that, though. They didn't say, hey, the first 10 minutes are going to be golden and everything after that's going to be kind of downhill. But I'm really excited to talk. I've been a fan of you for a while.

And this is actually not the first time that we've met. Oh, where'd we meet? I need to actually apologize to you because I accosted you on the street. I see that. I'm usually the one apologizing. So what happened? You were exiting, I think, a Whole Foods.

You were nearby Whole Foods. Okay. Somewhere in Brooklyn. Okay, I'm not going to disclose it, right? I don't want to docks it. Oh, it must have been the downtown one if it was Brooklyn. It was actually just right over here. It was near a Whole Foods.

I don't know if you were leaving it. Oh, no, then I wouldn't. The only Whole Foods I'd go to is the one, the 365 or whatever they say down. I don't think I haven't lived in Williamsburg. Really? Yeah. So I saw you in Williamsburg. Unless it was just a different guy.

It might have been your doppelganger. That's why he was upset. Yeah, that's what it was. Yeah, he was pissed off. He was like, I'm obviously a different. Because he doesn't agree with anything, I say. Yeah, yeah, no. But he looks exactly like me.

Sounds like me. Yeah, it's like bizarre of you. But no, you were walking down, and I was like, holy shit, that's him. And I just, I waited for you to pass. I just yelled, David. And I was like, if he turns around, then it is him. And then you turned around and you were like, and I was like, hey man, just big fan. And you were like, oh, thanks.

And they just kept on walking. Well, that doesn't sound terrible. It's not terrible, but I did feel I was like, I should just let him keep walking. No, that's fine, Mark. That's fine. No, it's the people who, you know, that, I mean, that's, I'll take that over some of the alternative approaches people tend to have, you know, like where they are very enthusiastic, but only. only because they've seen you on TV, and then they want you to give them your credits. Oh, you're that guy.

They're like, I know you, and they also say they don't ask questions. They just make statements. And then they'll go, I know you. And you go, okay, great. And they're like, no, no, no, but I know you, right? I don't know, do you? And, you know, if you're walking, it's one thing. You can just keep walking, but if you're in line for something or whatever.

And they're like, no, no, how do I know you? I don't know, man. I, you know, what? No, you're on TV. Yeah, sometimes. All right, so what do you want? And then, based on their look, I try to guess what they know me from, you know. I don't know, man.

That's funny movie, too. That's right. Or whatever. I feel like that's a diss. Like, I feel like depending on what you're judging that they're from. Oh, it mean, yeah. Oh, you know me from Alvin and the Chipmunks. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, the fucking world at this point knows me from album and the chipmucks. That spans generations. Hey, what's up, guys? Sorry to interrupt this amazing program, but I need a little bit of help. If you're watching this on YouTube, you can probably see our subscriber number right down here. And if you're able to, it would mean the world if you could subscribe. That is the best way to support this show. Because when you subscribe, I'm able to show it to potential guests or to different brands and stuff like that.

And it really, really helps grow the show, get us cooler guests, have cooler conversations. And it helps everything so, so much. So if you don't mind, thank you so much. Let's get back to it. Are you more flattered if someone knows you from film or TV or if they know you from stand-up? Oh, neither. I mean, but I would say if they know me from stand-up, then they're more of a fan, you know. Because the, you know, TV film stuff is easy and it's just, oh, you're the guy on that thing.

But if you know my stand-up, if you know me as a stand-up, then, you know, then, Mark, you know my essence. Oh, wow. Yeah, my inner child. My inner tooth fairy. And you started in Boston? I mean, technically I started in Atlanta, but I didn't really kind of get rolling and find my voice until Boston, yeah.

Got. So how many years have you been doing stand-up at the time you got to Boston? Oh, just one. Okay. Well, one and a half. Okay, cool. Yeah, from the very first time I did, walked on stage.

And the early days of doing comedy in Boston. What was that scene like? Like, were you starting? Like, was Louis around the time then? Oh, yeah. Was Patrice Cookin then? Well, Patrice wasn't a Boston guy, but, I mean, he was down here, I think. And I say down here because New York to Boston.

But, I mean, my peers, that group, that was Mark Mee. Aaron, Louis, Jenny Garoflo, Laura Kightlinger, John Benjamin and Sam Cedar. They might have been a little later, but gosh, who else? Was Rogan doing stand-up in Boston at that time?

He, I don't think he was a Boston guy either. And then there were like the guys who came a little bit, Greg Fitzsimmons, Bill Burr, was a little later. Gosh, I mean, you know, I know I'm spacing on a million people, but it was, it was really kind of special in hindsight. Yeah. You know, like we kind of knew we were, and we were cocky and very, and there were some people like Marin and Louis were really good at straddling both. there was that kind of burgeoning alternative scene

when there was no name for it yet and then there was like kind of regular not regular that's not the right word but you know the traditional go to uh you know what the fuck was a chinese restaurant on route 128 there was uh there's some big you know where you'd get they'd have five comics a night and like the big guy steve sweeney and lennie clark and don gabin and you know, all those guys, the mainstays, Mike McDonald and all, just tons of them,

would sort of rotate and do five sets. And it's all cash. It's all under the table. And there's tons of blow. And so that was one world. And then the other world were like the alternative things out of the back of a laundromat. And, you know, the coffee house stuff. and you're still getting paid, but not as much.

And then, you know, it's, there were some guys, some people who could do both of those worlds. And then some who just couldn't do both. Yeah. For people that are listening that are not comedians or like deep cut comedy fans, are you able to characterize alternative comedy? Like alt comedy versus like club comedy is like the distinction I was always taught. Yeah, it's nobody who. did that or or participate in that ever called it alternative comedy because for us it wasn't

alternative. I mean, you can you can look at it in a real simplistic way and go, well, the club comedy, you have kind of a classic setup that people don't stray from. They don't really experiment, I guess, and they don't, you know, they're going to do an hour or 50 minutes, whatever. And, and, and, there's just a template for it and a look. And it sounds, the cadence and the sounds. There's a classic punchline, set up punchline tag, you know. And then there were a bunch of us who just kind of all at the same time weren't interested in that and had other ideas. And, you know, Janine Grofalo would just come up with a notebook and pages spilling out of it, you know, and then just fucking riff for whatever, however much time she had.

And it was like genius shit watching it. And then there were variations of that, you know, and just kind of fucking around with the format a little bit. But nobody called it. It was, I think it was somebody from the LA Weekly did an article. for real, like the arts newspaper out there, and they were the ones who termed it alt comedy. Yeah. And it stuck, but nobody, we never called it that.

Yeah. Yeah, it almost seems like, at least from where I was kind of grown, it was almost like a pejorative. It was like, oh, that's a different, that's not what we do. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, well, I just see it as,

if it's funny, it's funny, and sometimes it's not funny. Fuck yeah. I mean, yes, for sure. Are you familiar with the guy named Casey Rocket? No. Oh, you might. I think you're going to love him. I think you're going to love him. So he's a newer comic. He's a young guy. He's out of Austin right now. And he's a crab. He's a what? He's a crab. That's the only way to describe him. Like, genuinely, he's one of the guys. And he's one of these guys that's really cool because he's sort of straddling like very much like mainstream club comedy world. But as you can call him an alt comic, I guess, but he's just doing something completely different. Like the second he walks on stage, you. You know, he's just doing something completely different.

Like the second he walks on stage He's doing like impressions. It's very non sequitur. It's very surreal. It's, it's... I love that. It's fascinating. And he's one of these guys, but he fits into...

Casey Rocket? Casey Rocket. Okay. You should check him out. I will send him to you. Okay. He's a... You'll physically send him to me?

Yes, yeah. Oh, that'll be awkward. He's very small. He's a small crab. Oh, you were being literal. No. Oh, shit. I thought you meant like he was a disgruntled old man or something.

No, no, no. Oh, he's a crab. He's a crustace. That talks. Yeah, exactly. That not only talks, does comedy. Exactly. Jesus.

Yeah, exactly. You're going to love him. You're going to love him. I guess so. But there's like this, he's one of these guys that straddled it really well. Yeah. And there's like a new school of people that have done it in a way. Then I'm like, oh, wow.

Growing up, I would see like alt comedy growing up in Orlando and I'd be like, all right, this is, you know, interesting. But Casey's just taking it to a level where I'm like, oh. Well, alt comedy for alt comedy's sake is bullshit. And, you know, it's, there is no alt comedy anymore. I mean, it's all, I mean, when you have, you know, the people selling out theaters that were, quote, unquote, all comics, I mean, it's, that's what it is now. And there's, and also there's, club comedy is kind of different and has been redefined by all the comics coming up that play clubs. So, you know, you look at Patton Oswald, and there's not for a second would you think alt comic, right? Same with me, you know.

And but there was a time, believe it or not, it's hard to imagine, but there was a time when that was alternative to what everybody was doing, what the standard club comic was. Yeah, it's a relative marker. Yeah. And you need to understand. It's all, it's whatever. It's, it's, it's, it's, you can do whatever you want. Yeah, which is nice. Yeah.

Growing up in that scene and watching like young Louis and Burr and guys like that, did you have any indication early on like, oh, wow, this little cluster of comics in this tiny little town or in this tiny little scene are going to go on to be some of the biggest comics in the world. Did you have any inkling of that? No, but I did, you could recognize, uh, like Louis's brilliance early on. And he was young. He started, it was a teenager, I believe. Couldn't have been much more. If he wasn't, then he would have been 1920, maybe tops. But he, like, very quickly just had this thing, you know. And again, Janine was somebody who a lot of us were inspired by because she was just,

she was ballsy and fearless and didn't give a shit. and that was clear and she was, you know, the smartest kid in the room and that was kind of off-putting, especially to guys in Boston in the 80s, you know. That's witchcraft. Yeah. Very disconcerning. A woman? It's a witchcraft.

And there were people who very clearly from the beginning, you're like, oh, they're special. That's a special talent. But I don't think, I didn't get that feeling of, oh, we're doing something magical here until I was in L.A. And that's when the alternatives. And that's whoever coined it was from L.A. And they were talking about a lot of the people who had moved out to L.A., you know. And, you know, what eventually became, you know, a lot of.

of that Mr. Show era thing. And you're like, well, this is, this is kind of special. I'm seeing it now. I guess maybe I was also so deeply in, I mean, there was so much work in Boston in the 80s. And that's the only reason, the, literally the only reason that I got to do as much stand-up as I, because I didn't do well.

I'd say I had, I was batten about, I was Mendoza line, you know, like two out of ten, shows would be really good and two would be okay and six would just suck and they needed people the boom was a real thing and they're every motherfucking uh you know Lebanese in the back of a Lebanese restaurant they put up a stage and at a Benigans they're gonna well you know while the you know three Stooges marathon is going to play behind you but we're also having a stand-up comic and a bowling alley in Nashville in New Hampshire and whatever you know There was so much work that they just needed bodies to fill up these nights.

So I got work, you know. But I, again, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't a crowd pleaser, you know. But I was also one of those guys that people liked to see bomb, like other comics, you know, a comics comic, as they say. because I also, you know, I don't want to say I didn't give a shit because that's not true. I cared and I tried to be professional, but I had a very quick, all right, fuck these people kind of switch. So, you know, I'd give it a couple minutes and I would try.

I really would try. And then after, but sometimes people are just fucking assholes. And if that's the case, then all right, run. And I had no compunction about, saying what I felt and even trying to stir the shit a little bit. Can you regale me some of your most violent, your most violent bombs? Oh gosh. I mean I did, I did this outdoor show which are always tough. Those are tougher to begin with and I did this it was big money you know and it was like again do 15

minutes maybe 20 and opening for I remember Tony V was headlining and there were probably four comics on the bill. It was college. So outdoor show at a college is just a recipe for disaster. Yeah. And I was the first guy out and I made a kind of a rookie mistake in trying to open with this kind of news. I had probably only done it like three times and it had worked in the context of a club at when I was the 11th guy on open mic night kind of thing. I was like, oh, that was a refreshing, interesting thing. It was a song. It was just a rookie mistake.

And especially given the circumstances. And they were fucking yelling and screaming and throwing shit. But they were having fun doing it. And I could kind of sense that. It's very fun to throw shit. Yeah, that's fun. And then I look. I've only done at this point, you know, I finished up the song and then started trying to do jokes.

And I got maybe six or seven minutes in. I see Tony on the side. Who's a friend, you know, and Tony going like gesturing. Like, come on. Sorry, I got you. Finish up, it's fine. I'll cover the time. It was like, okay.

Which is way worse. Like, that's like, it's a very kind gesture, but the kindness is almost an, like, it almost stings more. I was just telling this story during my podcast, which I did in L.A. for the Netflix as a joke thing, did a live... Wait, sense is working overtime? Yeah. Wait, that podcast? That podcast.

That's brand... It's brand new. It's out right now? Yeah, yeah. Wait, people can go watch it on YouTube and Spotify? It was a little slow there. Yes. They can watch it on the YouTube's or wherever you might find your podcast.

Sense is working overtime. Or go to official davidcross.com for all the... episode. Is it a good podcast? Should people watch it or not really? Um, I like it. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, I enjoy doing it. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't want to do a podcast, you know, not for any negative reason. I just didn't feel like taking my time out doing it, but I've really enjoyed it. That's cool. That's cool. Yeah, it's really fun. It's just a conversation. Yeah. With, you know, funny, interesting, smart people. And it's sometimes like crazy silly, like the Bob Odenkirk episode is just nonstop bullshit, but funny.

sometimes it's telling stories with old friends like the John Benjamin, he and I go way back and, you know, there's all kinds of different, but it's just fun. It's a funny hour you'll, I believe, lap out loud. That's awesome. We're going to take a break real quick because you have back hair. Yeah. And if you're like any other dude in the world with back hair,

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Now I'm sure you're wondering, Mark, this seems like overkill, right? This seems crazy, right? A whole apparatus just to shave your back. This is going to be so inconvenient. Here's where it gets wild. You're watching this? The top of the shaver pops out, easy. Now you have a tiny little handheld shaver that can get every other part of your body. Let's see you've got chest hair. Maybe you got a leg hair. Maybe you got a little, uh, little, some bushes.

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I never will but if you're looking for the shaver of the future it's at backscape.com let's get back to the show so you wait you were just saying Tony V he pulled you off stage oh so I was telling this story

uh um amy man and Michael Penn uh did the these tours called Automatic vaudeville, I believe it was called. And because Amy and to a lesser degree Michael, but Amy really doesn't like to do banter between songs. So she had this brilliant idea. Oh, I'll get my comedian friends to come out and actually stand, you know, be on the stage

and do banter and do my in-between song stuff. And then they go into the songs, which is, it was pretty good. But there's not a huge crossover between Amy Mann, Michael Penn fans and the comedians she likes. So it's, it was me and Patten Oswald and Paula Tompkins and Mary Lynn Rice Cup and various people. And, uh, and one of the shows I did was in Virginia. And, uh, and the audience is a little older, a little more NPRish, a little more bookish. And, uh, and I have, you know, I get, I get accused maybe is, I don't, I don't know if that's the right word of being like a lefty political guy, but I have plenty of stuff that upsets lefty. Don't be wrong.

I'm racist. Look, I hate what people accuse me being a progressive guy. I'm a bigot, okay? I mean, it's not, it's just, you know, not, I don't know. Anyway, they're jokes. They're fucking jokes. Anyway, so I was up there and I'm doing my stuff, and, you know, Amy and Michael were very familiar with it. And the audience wasn't even being that.

It was for me, it was like, nothing. I can handle this shit. And I feel, as I'm talking, I feel the presence, the presence of Amy coming up behind me. And then taking the microphone and admonishing the audience. And I'm standing there like a six-year-old while my mommy came in is like, you treat my son with respect. Share with him.

And it was the most. awkward. Because I, and I think I'm old, I might be older than Amy, too. I'm not sure, but I'm, I think I am. And I just felt so like a nine-year-old, you know, my mommy had to come up. Did you, you also open for Tool at a certain point? I did, yeah, I did. Greg Barron and I did like sportscaster guys.

And we were set up, I think it was Mark Fy. and Greg Barron and I, we were set up on stage. I love, love, love, love my amazing, cool, talented musician friends. But they, all of them, to a person, don't understand. Like, I'm glad you guys want us to do some stuff, but the audience doesn't. And this was a great case. of that. And so we were dressed up as like these sportscasters and we were supposed to do kind of play-by-play color, whatever. This is a while ago. And the audience, you know, said no,

thank you in their very specific way and they were throwing ice at us. And we're doing the whole thing. And at some point, we're like, well, Greg, I could see the ice is being thrown at us and that's probably not a good sign. You know, whatever. And so yeah, yeah, that was not. I mean opening for a band Has it? It seems like it never goes well It doesn't go with it I think Jim Brewer opened for like Metallica a couple times

And like I don't know what the verdict on that was But like you hear these stories all the time When comics open for like huge like in arenas And I'm like doing comedy in arenas Already its own thing And then trying to do it for not an audience That doesn't want comedy It's like what? It seems brutal

Yeah And you're you know the It's when you're in a club and somebody heckles or even the theater, you can find that person. Yeah. And talk to them. Go, what the fuck's,

what's, what's, what's, let's talk about this. What's upsetting you? Whatever if it gets out of hand, you get security. But, you know, at an arena, I don't know who the, and then you're,

Section 238. Yeah, you're anonymous and you're, you're making your friends laugh, you know, but it's just easy and to fuck with the comic, you know?

And I understand it. I get the, I, I see what's appealing about it, you know? I mean, that's brutal. So I'm curious, after, like, being in Boston for a little bit, how shortly thereafter did you do your first late-night set, the one with the amazing sweater?

I know what you're talking about. Was that Conan? That was Conan. Oh, not just the sweater, but I had a sole patch. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how amazing the sweater was that the sole patch didn't even register. You don't even see, you just see through it. It's like a muted, kind of tie-dye-ish, but not like crazy.

tie-dye. It's more like just somebody spilled a bunch of shit. Yeah, it's like a Dixie Cup you would put like a sperm sample in. You know what I mean? It's just like it's just... I didn't see it as bad. It's just... I've always considered myself to be like a Dixie Cup you would put sperm in two. There's layers to it. It's a beautiful metaphor.

It's like a yeah, it's not my greatest sweater. Do you like it? Actually, I'm looking around here and go, oh wait, you probably actually genuinely like that. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. I wish I had it. I'd give it to you. What happened to it?

Like, was it... Oh, I probably gave it away. Sold? Donated it? Donated? Yeah. I mean... To a charity?

Yeah. No, well, no. You know, I get tons of free shit, so I just get bags and then donate the... Rotated out. I don't have a big closet. That one looked free. That one... That's what I looked...

I hope it was. I hope I didn't spend human money on it. Yeah. But it was... I enjoyed it because it fit very much for the time. It was very 90s. Yeah, it was. And I was like, is this a part of the...

Pit? Is this a good part? I know. It's unfortunate. I know exactly. When you say it, I know exactly. I couldn't tell you anything else I wore on any other TV thing, but I know exactly what you're talking about. Like, was it to make a statement or were you like, oh, this is a sick? No, no, I think I liked it. No, there's no way it was to make a statement. I love that. That's so funny. It was like hippie adjacent but not hippie because it was, again, it wasn't like bright tie-dye colors, but it was sort of like they all blended into.

each other and it was yeah I guess it was very much of the time yes and were you nervous to go from like your scene where you were doing I'm sure you you were in LA at that point but kind of doing a different style of comedy than going into a late night show which is very much like hey set up punchline tag tag set a punchline tag were you nervous to do that or was it did you feel confident I mean I mean I I had the you know I know I knew it was a good set they had seen the set and they got to sign off on all that stuff and they They encouraged me to do specific things.

And I had done, and comedy was kind of starting to change, you know, was in the very beginning of that. So I know two things that I did. I know I did, I said, at some point I came out and I said I, I, I was told, something to this effect. If I was told if I came out and talked about going to Turkey for a month, that I could write it off. Okay, so, and I had gone to Turkey for a month. I just backpacked around Turkey by myself and discovered I could write it off as a bit if I mentioned it on, if it became part of my set.

So I just said that. So I said that, and then that got a big laugh. That was like the thing I opened with. And then I said something about, oh, I know, wait, I also remember this because Conan brought it up. I did his show. I just found out yesterday, actually, that I'd done Conan, I've done Conan 16 times. 16? 16, yeah.

And I never would have guessed that. But he cut, and he apologized on his show. much, much later, 20 years later, because they cut a bit of mine that they said I could do. And there's a really weird cut. If you watch the, if you're watching the set, it's clear they cut material out because it jumps to like it suddenly jumps to like a close up and I've just finished something. It's a clear cut. They did the best they could. But it was a bit that they signed off on about, we don't know what Jesus Christ sounded like.

You know, we have an idea of what he looked like. We have an idea of this and that, but we don't know what he sounded like. And for all we know, he could have sounded like a really effeminate Southern man. And I just did Jesus as a gay guy from the South. And, you know, it gets a, it does very well, and people like it, and they cut it.

And it's weird because they had signed off on it. Did you know that they cut it at the time? Yeah, I went and watched. I was like, hey, everybody, I'm on Conan tonight. Go, let's watch. And then they cut it and was like, oh, fuck. That was weird. But Conan brought it up when I did his, you know, I guess for the 14th time, I guess.

But he brought it up and he apologized for it. How did you feel when it was cut initially, when you watched it the first time? I was, you know, frustrated and pissed off, especially because they knew the set. Right. It's not like you pulled a fastball. No, no, no. And I would have done something else to, you know, fill up 30 seconds. I had plenty of material.

But, I mean, it wasn't like I wasn't furious and like, I'm going to sue you. It's just unfortunate. Yeah, that's interesting. But in that time, I can imagine you're like a young comic coming up and you're like, okay, this is the five that I want to do or whatever the time is. And then they approve it and then they cut it out, especially for you. And it's also a really good. bit. Or I shouldn't say it was a, it went over very well. Yeah. And it's, um, it kind of very much,

you know, what would come to be, I would consider very, you know, distinctive for my voice. Yeah. It's like, oh, I'm going to do, you know, I'm going to do Jesus as a gay Southern man, which might upset you, but the context is we don't know. You can't tell me that it's not this. That it's not this. Because no one has this. No one knows. There's no audio recording. So that's very much in my style of like, I'm going to say something that's going to offend you,

but I really want you to think about it because you don't know. Maybe it's true. I'm not saying it is or isn't, but it could be. You never had any, did you ever have any stand-up bits that didn't work as well as bits but worked well as sketches for Mr. Show? That's a good question. I don't think so. I know I can tell you bits that came from,

or sketches that came from bits. The coupon the movie was a thing that I just rift about. Because I had gone to Magic Mountain, the Six Flags out in L.A., and they had Batman, the movie, the ride, the cup. So there was a cup of the, you know, the Jack Nicholson Batman. So it was a cup about, it was Batman the Ride, which is based on Batman the movie.

So I had, so it was like Batman the movie, the ride the cup. That's right. And then I did a thing about coupon the movie, just talking about other dumb things. Oh, and they were going to. perhaps make a movie, this is for real, based on Bazooka Joe, the little film, the comic thing, the two-panel thing. Like, how do you make a movie out of that? And then I, you know, there was coupon the movie. And it was just that and then that became- But you were doing that on stage. Yeah, not, but that, the bid is about something completely, you know, it takes off from that and

becomes something different. And then Ronnie Dobbs was a real thing that I did. I didn't give them a name, but I had a whole bit. I did it on TV, too. And it was, here's my impression of every other person being arrested on the show, Cops. And it was basically Ronnie Dobbs. And, you know, which I grew up around, as I'm sure you did too. It was like long hair, shirtless, you know, meth skinny. Yeah.

You're very subversive in your insults. It's really crazy. But like, well, you're not shirtless. Not yet. But, you know, you know. motherfucker you can't arrest me god that you know just all that and I used to have a bit about um one of my favorite things about growing up at the south was listening to rednecks get in a fight like it's going to be a physical fight and then when they're one of them's like yelling

you know puffed up yelling they lose their train of thought in the middle of because they're drunk and they're like they can't get the like man you don't want to mess with me, motherfucker. Y'all don't know me, but you fuck with me. Man, you don't want, because I'm like, you get, you get me, man, I'm like a goddamn, I come at you like

a goddamn, um, what the fuck is called? The thing with a, you know, this guy and people are chiming in. A tank? No, no, not a tank. It's like an animal, but it's got a shit, you know, whatever. Bro. There's a viral video

that you're literally describing. This is so funny. Have you ever seen this? These two kids, these two black kids in the hood arguing. And it's like, one kid's like 15. He's trying to, like, insult the other one. And he's like, this motherfucker is so stupid. He came to my house three in the morning, this dumb ass motherfucker. He was trying to make a goddamn, uh... Uh, and the person behind him was a sandwich. Yeah, a goddamn sandwich. He forgot what a sandwich was. Bro, it's the funniest video of all time. Try to be in an argument and forgetting something in general is funny. And then you put a southern accent on it? Perfect. Yeah. Anything with a southern accent is better. Yeah, it really is, dude. I mean, it's wild. When you're doing dumb.

Yeah. And, yeah, so those, that, you know, there was Ronnie Dobbs and, I don't, I can't think of any other bits offhand. I don't know. In general, for Mr. Show, what was the writing process like? Like, was it just you and Bob locked in a room, or was it? It would start, every year would start the same way, where. Bob and I would meet for, we'd meet for, anywhere for a month to six weeks prior, just like informally and, you know, even if we didn't have offices yet at, you know, each other's

apartment. And then when we had offices, we go in for the first four to six weeks. And we would just, again, informally, we, you know, hey, did you see this thing in the news? Did you read this? So you got to check this out. And just start talking. And then, oh, I had this idea last night. Oh, man, I was, you know, at the grocery store and whatever the thing is. And then we just sort of pitch ideas, work on stuff without any real pressure. And then we wrote really well together. I mean, still do. And then we would have these ideas. And then the other writers would come in and the writing staff grew each time. And they'd come in and they'd have ideas. And, and they'd have ideas. And, And now we had kind of a ticking clock because we have a calendar. We got to, you know, from this point forward, we got to have this show submitted. We have to have, you know, this script, and we have to be working on the stage versions of these sketches. And we're going to shoot here.

And, you know, and we divided everything into two parts. So there'd be five shows to stop down for a week or two, but not really stop down. Just keep writing. And then do the next, produce the next five shows. But, um, uh, and then, you know, I learned a lot from working with Bob. Uh, I'd never run a writer's room before. And he's just very smart and equitable about it, very democratic. Um, and everybody gets a chance and you don't, you, you, you're, my instinct, and I think I speak for every other writer, uh, to kind of shoot down an idea, uh, because it's a terrible idea. Uh, you, you, you're, my instinct, and I think I speak for every other writer, uh,

it's a terrible idea. Bob would be like, okay, wait, wait, wait, before we dismiss it, what about that one, you know, one funny line, everybody laughed at. Maybe we work on that. Maybe that's the idea of the bit. We lose all the other stuff. And he was really good about that. And about the work ethic of this script that you spent two and a half days, you know,

eight hour days working on and taking all our notes and stuff doesn't work. You need to go, you keep trying to fix it, but it's not fixable. But there is a funny idea here where the guy is pretending to be blind. You know, that guy who pops in in that one little section, scrap everything else, start again with this guy. And the idea for a lot of people of like, I did all this work. And I can fix it. And I can fix it. and the idea of just scrapping the whole thing and starting fresh with this one nugget, this one little thing,

is he's very good about that, and I learned the value of that. Yeah, the sunk cost fallacy of, I put in so much time. Yes, yeah, that's pretty much it. So it must be, we must make it work. Yeah, that's true. That's a good way to put it.

And that's something, I was the guy going like, okay, I know there's something here. I can work on this and just wasting hours and hours. It's a lot of ego, though. It's like I'm so invested in this. Like, I need to make this thing work. I'm curious for you and Bob, why did that collaboration work so well?

I, you know, it's hard. I don't know. I don't know what he would say. I, you know, if you took like the kind of, sexual chemical stuff away from whatever relationship you have with your wife for your girlfriend or your partner, you know, that works in a way that it didn't work with other people. But there was a connection to, you know, you've had all these past girlfriends or boyfriends or whatever. And it's that thing where like we just found when we were working on these

ideas that I mean I can tell you the elements that are there we have a mutual respect for each other we're both funny in different ways but we uh I know that intuitively um bob's stuff hues more kind of uh scientifically traditional sketch like it it has this beginning it has this part and has that part And it's more, they feel like more traditional sketches. And mine tend to be kind of all over the place, tell a story, but they're not, it loses, it doesn't have as many laps per minute, you know. And for us to take our two sensibilities and bring them together makes for really good sketches. And we both, there's no ego involved with,

either of us. And there's no, you're just doing the thing that services the sketch. And we both will go, oh yeah, that's a better idea. Yeah, my idea is garbage. That's a better idea. And you find that thing. And I think, you know, again, we're two different people coming at it from two different ways. But it creates this pretty cool thing. That's really cool. It can probably be articulated a bit better, but... Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Yeah. Which network was it broadcast through?

HBO. What the kids might consider Max. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's back. It was HBO Max and now it's just Max or something. Yeah. They've gone to like five different iterations. I don't know.

What is... And you know they paid 100 grand or 200 grand for somebody to go, we did some tests. Yeah, yeah. You know, we've been doing this for four months and doing research. and doing these, you know, committees. We were out in Scottsdale, Arizona, and we were in Bloomington, Minnesota, and, you know,

and Bloomington, Indiana. We kind of messed up. It was weird. The files got screwed up. Anyway, yeah, and somebody came up with Max. We have three different boys' names, and we just want you to pick your favorite one. Yeah. And you're like, all right.

But, yeah, so I guess Max. As opposed to HBO Chris. Yeah, exactly, right? Yeah, yeah, no, Max is. HBO Kevin. Or just. Kevin. Yeah. Yeah, we can call it Kevin. If you, if it was broadcast now, if it was just put straight to YouTube, Mr. Show, do you think the show would be different? Did you guys have a lot of like restrictions with HBO in terms of what you could broadcast? None, none, none, none. The only restrictions we had, there was one note that we ever got that we had a kind of take. And we were like, fine, whatever. Is that where the mic is? Oh. The secret recording. The secret eye was.

But the only restrictions were we had a really, you know, minuscule budget. And we stole a lot of shots. And our director did a great job of squeezing out the best looks for, excuse me, no real money. And but that's also, I should say, not necessarily restriction. makes you make more creative choices. Like if you, obviously we can't afford a helicopter, so you figure something around having a helicopter, which is I need a helicopter for the idea of this bit.

But, you know, you just figure it out. And, you know, as far as like standards and practices, no. No, they encouraged us to, you know. Push a little. Yeah, we want something that's that you can't see on TV. You know, and that was their kind of Point the whole point of HBO when it when it When it was starting was this idea like this you can't see this on ABC or CBS or NBC

Was there ever a sketch you guys brainstormed? You're like this is too Crazy. This is too wild like no Because even like like the lie detector sketch isn't on its face that wild But at the time for someone to be saying on TV like oh I've done every drug Yeah was like pretty bizarre I could imagine like if I was watching with my parents

I could imagine them being like what the hell is this so was there anything in that vein but also Bob appears as just a completely straight guy right you know which it's obviously what brings out the humor but I'm curious

like was there anything that you're like oh this line this one Hitler joke is like oh is this going to be too crazy or did you feel like it was always within bounds I thought it was well always there was nothing that

I could think of that was and and I have to say that my memory of it is probably not as good as yours because I just haven't watched any episodes and I think we I watched I watched about six or seven episodes before Bob and I did the Netflix with Bob and David show just to kind of get a feel for it but the last time I watched the episodes like that was when we did the DVD commentary and that was that was I don't know, 20 plus years ago. I mean, I just haven't seen them.

Occasionally, it'll pop up, like, on a, you know, somebody will reference it and I'll see something, and I'll go, oh, yeah, that was great. But I haven't, like, sat down and watched an episode and, you know, since, I guess, whatever that was, eight years ago. You watched them for the, before the Netflix thing. Yeah.

How did it feel watching them? Good. They're funny. They hold up. They still held up. Did you feel any, like, oh. see the cheapness. Oh, really?

Yeah, I can see. But there's a charm to it. There's a certain kind of charm, but you can see how, I mean, it was a cheap show. We didn't have anybody, you know, but it was, I mean, we had fun. It was hard, but it was, I mean, I would argue that it's probably the best thing I've ever done, you know, or been a part of. I know some people say pitch perfect too, but I would say no, no, I think. I would say chipwrecked. Chipracked.

I would say chipwrecked was the one. Chiprecht, the movie, the Ride the Cup. Yeah, exactly. I've also heard that the show directly inspired Tim and Eric. Yeah, I think there's a handful of folks who, you know, it inspired, maybe not for necessarily aesthetic reasons, but just the spirit of it, you know, and what it, the, the thing that's so important to good sketch shows is you have to have a relationship with everybody. You know, like kids in the hall, they weren't brought together by, although I, you know what,

that's not necessarily true because Monty Python were those, Monty Python consisted of two different groups that didn't necessarily know each other. Oh, really? Yeah, whereas Cleese and Chapman and. and Cleese and Chapman, one of them did a show at Cambridge and the other one in Oxford. It was Eric Idol, Terry Jones,

I would say Eric Idol, Terry Jones, and Michael Palin, and then Cleese and Chapman were at another school and the BBC brought them together. Because I guess they were writing on the David Frost show or something like that, and they kind of met each other there. And it worked. It worked.

I mean, that's probably the greatest sketch show of all time. I mean, it's pretty wild. Like, I would be surprised that if you told me like, oh, you can just put comics and writers together, it would be a successful show. I mean, how often has that happened? Not many, you know. Maybe it should have it more.

Well. We need a boy band it. We need a boy band comedians to make a sketch show. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because it's 2024. And it's time to talk about something important. When you are seriously hurt, your injury could be worth millions. Yes,

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Now let's get back to the show after the short disclaimer. How are my abs, by the way, since I started drinking this? I mean, they look great. Yeah. And I'm not just saying that. because you're here and you paid me. I genuinely mean that. Yeah, about that payment thing.

I wanted to talk about that. I am definitely going to get it to you. Don't worry about that. I had a bit of a, there's a hiccup. My daughter turns out as leukemia, so I'm going to, I'm going to be a little bit late. You know what? Fuck that.

No, I'm going to pave. I'm going to pave. She can write it out It's good experience What's $200 bucks to chemo? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going on insurance anyway, right?

You got to think with your head here. I'm curious, how did a rest of development come to fruition? How did you go from that audition to having like a minor role to then being like a mainstay and like major character in that in the show? I did an audition. They offered me

so I had moved to New York and spent many years in L.A. My little pithy joke, which was actually true that I'd say to people is, you know, I moved to L.A. to make enough money to move away from L.A., you know, and that's kind of true. And I moved to L.A. because that's where the work was. And I did well there. And I had, but I'd always wanted to move to New York, and I knew I would.

And then I found an opportunity, quite literally, where I did. didn't have any work coming up. And I was like, if I don't leave now, I'm going to get a job doing some fucking thing. And I won't leave for another two years. And I want to get the fuck out of here and I want to go to New York. So I just loaded up a U-Haul with my stuff. I didn't have a lot of stuff. And I got a sublet and came out to New York and then spent my time getting an apartment. and I found an apartment on seventh between C and D. And I lived there until I was able to buy an apartment in a building, the building I wanted to live on, on 3rd and A in the East Village.

And so I had moved here and I was having a fucking blast. I mean, I was doing stand-up. I was doing the tour that would result in, shut up your fucking baby. and I had a awesome girlfriend and just going out doing stand-up and just out until four in the morning and up and whatever. I mean, I was just having a great, great time and going to see bands. It was kind of like Boston, you know, but with more money. And then I got a, you know, email call, whatever, from a couple of people, my manager and friends of friends. and like you should take a look at this as a new sketch.

Fox is going to do it. It's a new show. It's called The Rest of Development. They want you to look at the role of Job. And I was like, no. And I didn't even want the script. I was like, I don't want to move back to L.A. I'm not interested.

And please, it's really good. Just take a look at it. And they sent me the script. And I had no handle on Job at all. didn't know, and it was a really funny script. It was really funny in a way I hadn't come across, you know, especially for like network TV. And I had no handle on Joe, but I didn't know what that character was.

But Tobias immediately, I knew exactly, I knew exactly who that guy was. And then I, you know, I was like, I really like this. Let me talk to the, it was the Russo brothers who directed it. let me talk to the you know i'm interested in tobias uh but you know as a recurring character which it was design it was tobias was never meant to be a regular character and uh i'll do that and then i can do like six episodes go out make a little money have some fun come back home and and then i talked with uh the russo brothers and Mitch hurwitz we had a conference call and i described who Tobias was to me and what I wanted to do and how we'd look.

And I basically described it to them as he's a cross between Marin County, Northern California, kind of touchy-feely, kind of sort of hippie-ish guy. And the East Coast Dick Cavett kind of buttoned up, you know, therapist kind of guy. and which is a weird mixture, but it's exactly how I saw the guy and describe, you know, the mustache and all that's up. And they were totally on board with it. And I went out to shoot the pilot, and I remember very, very vividly, I was like, it was a long, it was like a 10-day shoot for a half-hour pilot, which is pretty long. And I remember it was like three or four days in. I remember shooting the scene where we were all in the jail, uh, uh, police station after we were shooting that

and I'm looking at all these, just the perfect casting. Like, and I didn't know most of these people. And, and the real, it's really funny and the writing's great and everybody, the acting is great. And, uh, and they let me improvise and stuff. And, and I remember thinking, I have to, I have to do this show. I'm going to have to do this full time and move out here. And I remember calling my then-girlfriend, you know, who certainly didn't sign up to be, you know, the girlfriend of a guy who was gone half the year, you know. And that was on the little walkway in the Beverly Connection

across from the Beverly Center. And I remember calling her going, I have to do the show. It's really good. And that's, and yeah. So there's that. Wow. Yeah. And then you move straight back to LA after that.

Yeah. You know, we shot to finish the pilot and then we had to wait and see if it got picked up and it did. And then, yeah, and then you're, I mean, it's, what is it, eight months a year? Yeah. Do you do the, whatever we did, 18 episodes, something like that? But I, the good thing was, maybe it was six months, but the good thing was I was only acting. So I didn't have to be out there for writing or pre-prudel. production or post or anything like that. It wasn't like I've done other shows where it's just

you're there for the whole time. And so, you know, and acting can be often, if you're lucky, like a paid vacation. It's really fun to do if you're on a good project that's run well with cool people. It's a fucking blast. It's really fun. Sometimes it's the hours are insane and you get very tired sometimes. But outside of that, there's nothing to complain about. And it's, It's just paid vacation. How much interaction is there with other cast members when you're not shooting? Like, is it constant hangout? With some, like, I would say Jason and Will and I hung out.

Those are the, Jason and Will were the guys I hung out with the most when we weren't shooting. It certainly initially, but Michael and I, have become good friends and he lives down the street for me and uh and we've hung out a lot you know but again he lives down literally you know uh like seven blocks away um and alia i used to see a lot and um and she worked in uh film my wife made she was a lead in it so hung out with her quite a bit and they're both amazing people. And, you know, Jason and Will, Jason did, I don't know if you know, I have a podcast called Senses Working Over Time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard of that. Yeah, it's great stuff. Well, that's one of the senses. You used one of your senses to arousal. Yeah. Horniness. The sixth sense, nobody talks about.

Yeah, hornyness. I jerk off to dead people. the weird niche porn that's the same person you get ghost fucked yeah it's pretty good but yeah

you did one with Jason it was awesome yeah and and Jason and I go see he's a huge Dodgers fan huge and I mean I respect

what kind of fan he is and he back in the day he would go with his transistor radio no shit and a and a you know one

earbud that's plugged into the transistor radio and or whatever the equivalent is but it's still

that's what he's listening to AM radio with one commentary of the game at the game and he'll go by himself well he's got tickets

and I admire what a true fan he is and he would take me to to games a lot you know and I'm a big baseball fan

so that worked out it is nice seeing someone that's just truly obsessed with a thing. He's really, he's a really dedicated good fan. For no monetary gain, for nothing

other than the fact that they're obsessed with it. No, he's born and raised in L.A. too. So he's been a fan for sort of the ups and downs and all that. He'll go. He'll go. And you know, look, there are way worse things than hanging out at Chavez Ravis Ravine and Dodger Stadium and watching it. That's one of my favorite

parks. Have you ever seen a game there? No, I haven't. It's just great. Especially if you're, if it's a evening game because you'll, the sun will start to drop and it's just beautiful. It's a nice stadium. It's not like Wrigley or Fenway, but it's right up there. It's a really great night out at the ballpark. Yeah, a gleaming review.

When you bring up other parks before that park, I feel like it kind of undercuts a little. There are some people that were excited to go to them and they're like, oh, it's not Fenway. It's not Fenway, but only Fenway is Fenway and only Rigley is Rigley. And you can make as many kind of Camden Yards and things like that that sort of replicate it, which is great. I love Camden Yards too. But, I mean, when you're in Fenway or Wrigley, you immediately get a sense of the history. They haven't changed that much. Yeah.

And they're over 100 years old, you know, and you're like, this is fantastic. Yeah. We're close to 100 years old. You can kind of feel it, like in the wood. Oh, yeah. You see it. You feel it. You know, it's special.

and um but they're you know they're great modern parks for sure uh you're a cut a ball say what have you caught a ball i did in uh the old candlestick park in san francisco off of willie mcgee did you give it to a kid i hate that i threw it at a kid it was bothering me you beaming at the back of his head this kid was clearly mentally challenged and annoying as shit wouldn't shut the fuck up yeah yeah yeah yeah And he was in a cross. I was on the third baseline. He was on the first baseline,

but I got the ball. I walked over there. And I got right behind him and go, yo, and then I just threw it at him and walked away. I did this thing, the kind of Pontius pilot, watcher against movement.

But he was probably excited. Yeah, because he's a huge chipmucks fan. I can't tell you one of the funniest things I've ever seen. So you remember, This is at Dodgers Stadium, too. But remember when it first started, it started in Wrigley Field. Cubs, they'd hit her home run, and people would throw it back.

Throw it back. That didn't really exist until a certain time. And then it became pretty popular, right? And I was at a Dodgers game with my friend, Mark Rivers. And my seats, I had tickets because I was the voice of the Dodgers for two years. and part of my payment was season tickets. Take that Bateman. Yeah.

This is pre-batement. This would have been like 90, early 90s, whenever I first moved out there, so 95, let's say. And so me and my friend Marker at the game. And there's a kid who's dressed in full, I'm going to guess he's like 12. And he's clearly, what do you, he can't say retarded. So, but what's the thing? you can say now for a retarded. Physically gay.

Is that it? I don't think so. Physically gay. But he was, I think it's mentally challenged, but I really want, but in a, he didn't have Down syndrome, but he clearly, you could tell, right? And he's just done up in Dodgers gear top to bottom, you know. That's a, exhibit beat. So there's a foul ball comes into the stands and this guy catches it, right?

And he is excited. He's so excited. And probably like 35, right? And it feels like it's his first ball, right? And he's super excited. And this kid who's, you know, in the same section, but like seven seats away. Like he was never going to get the ball. And also a couple rows behind, right?

is, is like kind of, you know, irritated with him and, like, he's asking for the ball. And everyone, we're all, everyone is sensing the guy's dilemma because this kid is a kid and he's clearly off. And we all felt it. Like, what, is he going to give the thing you're supposed to do is give it to him? But I wouldn't give it to him. You know, whatever. So he does the right thing. And he gives this mentally challenged kid who's clearly a big Dodgers fan, the ball, right?

That's nice. The guy, the kid immediately whips it out. And we were fucking dying. The guy got his first foul ball and then felt the societal pressure to be a good guy. and God bless him for doing that. And he gives it to the kid and the kid without missing a beat, just takes it and whips it out on the field.

Oh, Jesus Christ, that was funny. Turned out to be the greatest guy, actually. Turned out. I mean, everyone wins there, actually. Guess what? The ball had AIDS on it. So he saved the life. Save the life. Wow, look at that, dude. I'm curious, like, I always hear all these stories about Arrested Development that, like,

Tony's, like, Buster's arc, like losing his hand and stuff came from like a random email that someone sent they were like wouldn't this be silly if we had like this crazy thing like this basically like word play I have no idea really well there's so much word play in that show or like the the loose seal what if he loses his hand to a seal like what if this whole thing that sounds like something they would have come up in the writer's room they were they were tons of those things it was just like wordplay and they're like what if I mean like maybe's whole like her whole name Yeah, maybe.

And then also the girl that she becomes, you know, and there's that arc where she sees her sister who's in a wheelchair named Shirley. So there's maybe and Shirley. And I mean, yeah, they were masters at that stuff. Was there anything for... Analrapist. Come on.

That's the anaerapist. Oh, yeah. And the... I mean, the man inside me. The man. I mean, there's tons of that grade. Blew myself. I mean, yeah, it's unreal.

But I'm curious, was there anything for... Tobias and like his character that kind of came up as like just a silly sort of like one-liner pun that then became like a whole arc or was there anything about his character arc that was uh that people might not know you would have to ask the writers that like what came up which was supposed to be just a one-off thing that a pun um i will tell you something uh and I it's I mean this ship has sailed on doing anymore so I feel okay and you're hearing it here first but a lot of there's a lot of stuff if you go back through that was sprinkled in there purposefully to, and I think some people have kind of caught this and, but it was never addressed,

that Tobias is African American. Yes. And that was, there was going to be a reveal of that. And I just don't think they got to it. But yeah. And if you go back, they put, they started putting stuff in there, I believe, in the second series. What did I do? Oh,

backed over the water. Wait. Yeah. Yeah. What were some of the Easter? Was it like the Carl Weather's thing? I don't remember. There was a character named Ice.

And I know that that was the, I think, the first time. Oh, because I know what it is. It was Lucy. No, Lindsay, Portia Dorasi's character, saying a comment about, that's my type or something like that. But she married me or married Tobias. And then I think that was the first thing they put in there.

And then there are, I know there are a number of them. And then they just didn't get to it or, I don't know, the fifth season was a disaster. The last was just a mess. And for everybody. Yeah, the ice thing is he was like the bounty hunter, big black dude? Yeah, he was the like bodyguard, bounty hunter, whatever it is. He like goes to Mexico to try to find someone, I think.

Maybe. Yeah, probably, yeah. Okay. And so she, yeah, she's talking about him. Okay, I actually do. It's a very, it's the first, and there are other things. And they, you know, at some point Mitch had to tell me, like, this is the way to say this, don't say it this way, because of this reveal that will happen. So yeah, Tobias is black.

Yeah. It's too good. That is, I cannot wait to rewatch it for the eighth time. Yeah. Every time you go on Conan, I rewatch all of the rest of the element. I don't know if you know this. I'm working my way up. It's called the Conan effect.

Yeah. I mean, that's so funny. Do you have any idea of what he was going, like, how this was going to come to fruition or what he was going to do? No, I don't, outside of the, the reveal of it, and I don't know how the reveal was supposed to, it never made it to any kind of outline or anything. It was just always kind of there. But I think also, you know, Mitch's brain had nine things for every character that you wouldn't realize, you know. Like every character had some thing or you're like, oh, you know, Tobias is black.

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Do you remember any other characters having things like that, like specific arcs? Well, what was the thing with It was either series three or the Netflix one four But the thing with Justine Bateman Jason's real-life sister playing What was that whole run? Were they were in the attic and they discover Wasn't that a thing that was planted

About I feel like there was something I don't know. I'm again, and I don't mean this to sound obnoxious at all, but I'm not as familiar. I'm not as like well-versed in it as other people. Of course. But there was something to do with...

Well, he had a fake relationship with his sister in the show, Portia. Right. And I think there was some tie with like his actual sister. Oh no, yeah. No, wait. It was Portia. It was Lindsay's character was That's what it was

It was Lindsay was not Was adopted or something Yeah yeah yeah that was that was an arc that they found like They found she was adopted and they were like hooking up or something in the show and then Or like they were alluding to it Right It was fine because they were adopted and then that's tied in with George Michael And maybe because they weren't actually related

So then he was able to have his trist with her. Right, right, right. Something to that effect. But then Jason, Jason, Beaman's actual sister was in the show also. Right.

As almost like a tertiary, like meta line with the whole arc. That was season three, right? I believe so. Yeah. But I think that's a thing that maybe they were threading early on.

I don't know. Interesting. But that's a, come on TV internet sleuth. Yeah, exactly, right? As the show progressed, seasons one, two, and three, I know that there's a lot of, like, pleads like, hey, like, renew us. Like, hey, can you please renew us? It was such a, what a shitty way to have to go into work. And look, it's true of any occupation.

You don't know if today's going to be your last day. I mean, look at the Tesla people, you know, like they're getting fired left and right after, you know, showing their loyalty and all this stuff. And that's just off the top of my head. I mean, there's, you know, every, you know, if you work for the federal government, there's budget cuts. The blockbuster people, they all got laid off. You got, that's a shame. You heard of it? The blockbuster people?

Yeah. All of them got laid off. What are they going to do with all those empty stores? I don't know. They should, I hope they've become Dave and Busters. They're fun. Actually take my daughter, Dave and Busters. It's a nice place.

She loves it. Get him into gambling young. I got into gambling so old. That is what it is. It is absolutely, that is exactly what it is. Exactly, yeah, but it's real money. It's real, yeah. It's daddy's real money.

But what are we talking about? The... People get laid off. You go on to work every day and I can't give it my all. We just, it was, it kind of sucked, you know, because we really didn't know. And they would, it was the same thing with Mr. Show, too, where they would wait until the last possible minute. And I don't know what the benefit is for them.

I don't know if it's a cost thing, but they, Fox would wait until the very, very, very, you know, to literally last day. And it did it each time on whether we'd be renewed. And then you can't take work and you want it to, because you're having such a great time and you believe in the show. And then you,

Then you go in and you know the ratings aren't great. And they would say, like they, because they would do like six episodes and we'll decide after these six. And so you'd go in and you wouldn't know. And that kind of, you know, that's not a great thing to atmosphere to have when you go into work. But, you know, we were all pros and we, you know, we're having fun, clearly having fun doing it. And it was a blast. And, um,

but yeah, they didn't, they renewed us reluctantly until they didn't. And, um, we weren't a, a well thought of show, I guess,

by the, by the brass there, you know. Was that frustrating to be sitting in a show with a cast that you're like, the cast is great. The writing is borderline perfect. The first three seasons are phenomenal. The people that like it love it, but it's just not that big.

And then it gets canceled and then becomes a massive show bigger than it ever was when it was on the air. For you sitting at home, was it frustrating being like, where the hell were you guys or were you excited? You're like, finally people get it. What was that emotion? Well, there, in the last year is, so the only piece of information you're missing from that is DVD sales. So DVDs were the thing that, you know, ratings were antiquated. And it was the last, we were caught in the shift of those technologies. And the ratings meant less and less and less.

And now they don't even, they don't mean anything. You know, they've got ways to figure out it's 18 to 24 and it's this. market and they're single men and da-da-da-da-da-da and they've got all that. People watching up until this minute. Right. They know exactly everything. Exactly. And the shift was, had already started to DVDs.

So, you know, a show that wasn't, and there were a number of shows that were, I mean, there must have been 10 off the top of my head that got canceled and they got picked up by another network revived and were successful. I mean, there were a bunch. And it was all the same era, too. And the idea of the Nielsen box ratings were antiquated at that point, but they were still using them. And we didn't register there. And people were, there was TiVo, remember, where you could record a show.

And they discovered too late for us that people were, you know, recording it, not watching it when it came out on whatever, you know, Wednesday at 1030 or whatever the fuck it was on. and they were watching it on the weekend, and they were having watch parties. Arrested Development was a thing where people would gather and they'd watch it. So all this stuff was information they didn't have. Like we kind of knew because people told us, but, you know, they...

And then the DVDs came out and fucking made a billion dollars for them. And we didn't see any of that. Really? Yeah, yeah. There's no residuals to cast or create. or anything? Is it all network? Yeah, I mean, those, you know, they hadn't carved out lawyers and agents and managers because it was relatively new. It was a new thing.

It could have asked you, you want the DVD money? You'd be like, who gives your shit? Like, it doesn't matter. It's, I mean, they weren't big, you know, DVDs weren't that big of a deal. And again, it was just as it was shifting. So we, the rest of development got kind of caught up in that shift and, you know, was unfortunately on the other side of things. And that's why it got revived and that's why, you know, it has a cult audience, but, you know, I think a lot more people watched it than they realized. But it doesn't matter because their whole thing, their business model is to sell ads based on the numbers they got. And that's how people did it

for, you know, since the 50s. Yeah. And. And, And they just hadn't made the change. And I think if we were one, maybe two at the most years later, it would have been, you know, we'd be on episode 11. I mean, season 11 at this point, you know. But we just, the technologies. Yeah, it's crazy to think. Like, because you think, especially when you're a writer, I'm assuming in this industry, I don't necessarily know. But I can imagine you're getting told no all the time.

You're getting rejected all the time. And you're like, oh, I just want my time. to come and then to have your time come too soon must be demoralizing like if it had just waited if I just failed for another year a year or yeah a year or two at the most I think yeah it would have been because the DVDs came out and just fucking skyrocketed and do you think comedically it was ahead of its time like why did it work so well with DVD and works so well three years later but not when it was premiering on Fox uh good that's a good question and possibly, yeah, it took a little, you know,

it took a little getting used to that style. It was really jam-packed and you had to follow it. You had to, and I think with 99% of comedies and the purpose they serve, TV comedies, like people, they don't want to have to think. I think that's a certain audience that's like, just give me the Big Bang theory, Give me the funny, you know, give me that character who's sleepy and who says the grouchy things.

And then that character who's got a lot of energy, who's, you know, manic depressive. And she says those funny things. And just give me the gay character and the this character. And, you know, give me the nerd who says the nerd thing. And, you know, I think people, it's, and I'm not, you know, look, I mean, back in the day when you fucking work two jobs and you come home. It's like, I don't want to think. I just give me the, just give me the fucking, you know, the kid who says a smart ass thing

and that, you know, whatever. And I just want to unwind and have a beer and watch the, you know, just laugh. So I think there was a bit of that too. That makes sense. What is this? I don't, who, what? And there's so much, it was clearly clever. And I think if you're just not in the mood, just, you know, like, I don't want to deal with this right now.

I'll record it and I'll watch it at the end of the week when I have more brain space. Yeah, that's interesting. And so coming out a Wednesday at 9 p.m., like you're in the middle of the week. If people are catching it live. Is that when it was on? I think so. Yeah, that makes sense. It was a weird thing.

I remember that. Yeah, that's so interesting. There's a lot of things working against it in that capacity. I think that's just a theory, but I don't know. Yeah. And then seasons four and five when it got, picked up by Netflix, they were a little disjointed. Well, season four was purposely,

and I wish they hadn't recut it and then just gotten rid of the other thing. It was a really clever, again, ahead of its time. Interesting idea that Mitch had about, so what were there? There were like two, I want to say two episodes per character and or an episode and a half or whatever before they sort of tied in. And I'll say that when, and I shot it, you know,

but I didn't figure out how to watch it until it kind of got like midway through the Tobias episodes, which were around the seventh episode, where it finally clicked. I was like, oh, I know how to watch this now. Because it was disjointed, but intentionally, And then you're, so everything kind of, you know, if you saw it as kind of a matrix, you would see the, and I remember the writer's room. There's literally, how many of us were there, nine characters? And there were nine colored strings. Oh, wow. That would go up and down all over the room on like three walls. And this story would have to do with this story. And then this would be, you'd see it from a different perspective. six episodes later, the same scene. And it was really clever in a, you know, Christopher Nolan type way. And but I will also say really difficult to follow. And, and it was disjointed to me and I was there and I'm watching it. I mean,

I wasn't there for like Michael Jason scenes, but, you know, I knew. I knew what the scripts were and everything, knew what the story was. It was tough to get. And then it kind of clicked in when I was watching the Tobias things like, oh, because that character was over here. And now I'm seeing this from this perspective. And then, oh, so when Job goes to the leather bar and he says, oh, okay, I see this, because that's where Tobias was.

And that's, so it was tricky and needed work. And not everybody has, you know, Mitch has a brilliant brain. And, you know, it's, it's, I mean, one good thing, it's tough. You can't, you're never ahead of it. You're never watching. I go, I know what's going to happen. You ever. Never.

And then they recut it because it was not well received and made it linear. And I think it's, it's still okay, but it kind of suffers because of it. Because it wasn't meant to be that. And it's too bad because it's really, if you have the time and you put the effort in, it's really rewarding. And unlike anything I've seen on TV, I mean, really, it's a puzzle, you know. And I get, I totally get that people don't want to invest that time and energy. I get it. But some people do, you know.

Yeah. And then season five was a disaster. It was just it was I've never I haven't watched it I won't I will not it was not a good experience for anybody and It's too bad in what way like did you feel that it was kind of going off the rails Wow it did. Yeah, I mean it was oh you have Actors who Never display this kind of behavior walking off set you had I mean it was it was it was it was it was it was We had, I don't want to say too much because it was, it was a mess from top to bottom,

and it was not a good experience for, I don't think, anybody. And it can't be good. I mean, it can't be good. I can't imagine. I wouldn't watch it, but. Was the production different? Like, was any of the behind the scenes folks different? or was it?

A little bit, yeah. I don't think it wasn't, it wasn't, it was a mixture of a bunch of different elements that made it not good. And I think sometimes it's good to have deadlines. And it's good to have restrictions in, and I'll leave it at that. That makes sense. That makes sense.

Yeah, I could see if there's a lot of desire to make something work and maybe like money and the schedule kind of opens up and things can kind of linger and sort of gnaw away and keep going for longer than it should.

And that can affect the product. I can see that. It's, you know, what you need is, hey, you need to be finished by this date. This needs to be figured out. because then you figure it out. Yeah, and seasons one, two, and three had that.

Yeah, I mean, it was your, it was a, Netflix is an open checkbook. And Fox was like, you're done and you're out of the lot because we got another thing coming in and you got till Tuesday. Yeah, figured out. This much money, this much time. And that, you know, sometimes, you know, necessity is the mother of invention and you come up with great things at the 11th hour. and you've been sitting there and trying to figure out, you know, on whatever project it is, like, how do I get this character from point A to point B if they, I've only got a half hour to physically get that character to there, but it takes an hour.

Like, whatever the thing is. Like, how do I do this? How do I get, because that character needs to be here, but we know they, we left them there. And then you come up with this, you know, it takes a while. And then sometimes you're like in bed at midnight. you're like, oh, shit, I'll have him use that thing from before. And then if he goes through the, because he was in the hallway, and that's where he was on the, because he passes the box, you know, whatever the thing is.

You just figure it out and you do it. Yeah, creative restrictions, I think, can tend to be helpful. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, and you even brought this up with Mr. Show, like having some guidelines. Like, you have rules for the game. You know what I mean? Like having an out of bounds or having a shot clock for basketball doesn't make the game worse. it makes it better.

Yeah. And I think about this with like Seinfeld, like the master of one's own domain. Like that whole episode, have you seen that? They wanted to do an episode about masturbating. Who's the person that can go the longest without masturbating? I've seen that. And the network was like, you can't say masturbating on TV.

Right. And they were like, oh my God, okay, scrap the episode. And then they were in the writer's room. They were like, all right, well, let's just come up with a euphemism. Yeah. Master of my own domain. Right. And then that ended up becoming way funnier than saying jacking off.

Yeah, absolutely. And the show was better because of the restrictions. Right. And yeah, I could see when you want something to work so bad, you say, hey, no restrictions, unlimited money, take as much time as you want, and that actually makes it worse. And, yeah, I could see how that could apply here. Yeah, I'm curious, is there any way that it could have worked better? Like, had, you know, Netflix come in earlier, or had they greenlit seasons four and five, like, you know, within a closer timeline? Or had they shot it in a different way?

Was there a way that it could have been done more effectively or should it have just not been done? that final season. No, it should have been done. It should have just been done a different way. And I think you just said it. If it would have been, I guess if they knew going in, like, so we're going to do two of these seasons, then you're building towards this thing. And then there was also this idea that was, I don't want to say hanging over it, but it was this. kind of prize at the end that kept getting further away, which was the idea that they were going

to do a movie. They were going to do an arrested development movie. And so they were working towards that when it wasn't a real thing. It didn't happen. And it, I don't know, it wasn't like it was going to happen and then somebody decided not to. It just didn't happen. So a lot of, and I, you know what, I'm speaking out of school because I was an actor. I wasn't in the, production office, you know, outside of the reason times I had to be there, but which, you know, not often. And I wasn't in the writer's room.

And so I'm telling you things that were told to me by the creators, but I, you know, I don't have the, you know, I wasn't there for all of that stuff. But I know there was supposed to be a movie, and some of this is conjecture. But it was teased at the end of season three.

Like, I don't know if it works as a show, but maybe a movie. Yeah, that was always part of this thing that we were told. I think it would have worked really well. I think the movie angle would have been... I mean, who knows? I don't know. But I know what the movie...

It just sort of... I guess, you know, the analogy of went off the rails is, you know... But there weren't that many... The rails weren't that great to begin with. They were a little shoddy. Yeah. But it was... It was a markedly...

different experience for everybody on season five and it was not it and and part of the frustration it's amplified because it should have been the greatest thing ever and when we all got together uh the for in season four which had been i don't know decades since we had done the show i don't know exactly but when the cast got together for the first scene in the lucile's penhouse it was, we didn't even shoot for 20 minutes. We were all in the cast and the crew, we're all like, as we walked in in our outfits and character and the set, which we hadn't seen in forever,

they replicated it to the fucking T. And we were like, wow, this is fucking trippy, this is cool, and we were all so excited. And just, and we, you know, kind of blew a bunch of time, just all like gushing about it. about how great this is and we're all here again and how much fun and that, you know, was, I think you can sense that and that wasn't there for,

there was so many issues and it's not one person, it's not two or three people, it was a, as I said, from top down, it was everybody and it was, it just wasn't the same thing remotely and it was a disaster. Yeah, but I could imagine that energy coming in. Oh yeah, it was, I mean it was so cool. and so happy to do it. With all your buddies, senior year, everyone's like, oh, wow, we're doing it.

That's really, really exciting. It's pretty cool. And I think you can feel the love. I feel like you can sense it throughout all the seasons, like one, two, and three, and then specifically four. Yeah, yeah, it was there for sure. This is a question that I don't like particularly. I think when people ask it, it's sort of cheap and kind of open-ended. Can I have some water without showing the...

I actually prefer you show it. You asked me to put it on the ground, though. That was just for a, just for sort of, visual purposes. Oh, okay. Well, I'm going to have some Fiji water. Okay. Don't like that. We haven't gotten cleared for the check for this, but.

Okay. Thank you. I'm curious, do you have any funny stories with Will Arnett or Jason Bateman? Was there anything that you guys did on an off day or a moment on set that sticks out to you? I've found the two of them, particularly like maybe the funniest people ever. Like even listen to their podcasts. They, well, they're two very good friends too. They're very, they have the same kind of bro-y, Hollywood bro energy.

Well, on my podcast, Jason and I tell a story about back when Jason used to drink and party of what we did with Will's Bell. You know, you'll have to go to senses working over time and check that out. But, oh, God, I just thought of something, too. What was it? I think the first, the very first time they slept together was an interesting, you know, because we all knew it, right? And didn't want to say anything. Didn't want to be the person who's like, you guys are gay.

for each other, not gay, gay, but you clearly want to... There's a lot of touching and a lot of kind of playful, you know, jokey, homerotic stuff. And, you know, the get a room, you know, eventually became... Seriously, guys, get a room. Yeah, I mean... Because people are uncomfortable. Yeah. Well, we're not uncomfortable.

We're just like... We actually, it's the opposite. We want you guys to embrace this thing. and, you know, and just do it. And did they have girlfriends at the time? Wives. Wives. Families.

Yeah. That's something that caused a lot of... Yeah. No, it was cool. But it's Hollywood. Do you think they knew? Do you think the families know? That they were gay lovers?

No. Wow. No. Again, they're not gay. They just are gay for each other. Right. It's a different thing. Yeah, they need to have a specific word for that.

Yeah. It's bro gay. Yeah. Anyway. Um, You know, this is, this is, it would, the, there's a shot, it's part of a montage. I don't remember the episode or wherever it is. It's in the first three seasons, but Buster is playing piano and I'm dancing in the cutoffs and then Jason and Will are in the, it's at Lucille, it's in the penhouse and Will is on the table and Jason's over there. We're all like drunk or something. It's part of a quick little montage of whatever. And Will is laughing for real.

Like he's not, he could not control. He's just crying laughing. And it was also late. I think that was like we were into the 13th or 14th hour at that point. It was a long, long, long day. And Will's just losing it. But he's laughing for real. If you see that scene, if you know what I'm talking about.

Tobias is in his cutoffs dancing in the foreground with Buster is playing piano and Will was dying laughing, for real. And you don't remember what specifically he was laughing at? I think just,

well, as I said, it was a late night, it was very giddy, and, you know, we were all a little punch drunk. And they were in their puppy love stage, I imagine. Well, I had nothing to do with that,

but it was, I think it was just what Will was seeing. from his point of view. And I'm trying to think of funny Jason Will's stories. I'm not, I can't think of anything outside of the constant kind of, would you guys just fuck each other and get it over with, you know, constantly. Like, and I'm happy for him, you know, like just consummate you guys. Yeah, right?

Make it official. Yeah. Make it official. Now, one other thing I wanted to ask you, is it true that you did cocaine with Obama? No. I did a bump at the White House correspondence dinner under a table as a one-upmanship of a friend and I had been doing these things like, top this, top that, top this. And I knew when I was going to the correspondence dinner, I was like, oh, I know what I'm going to do. because you cannot top that motherfucker.

And so, and when I say a bump, I mean, it wasn't like I was getting high. It was literally a bump. It was the idea of doing it. So Obama was not there. I was not at the White House. It became, you did Coke with Obama at the White House. Nope. Not at all.

I did a bump the size of a ladybug, you know. So it's not like I was, you know, wasted or high. And I've always said that I do really well with Coke or speed stuff. I don't, I'm not like crazy. And I try to, you know, it's all about proportion. You enjoy stimulants the most? Yeah, yeah, yeah. More than downers.

You ever do a Zen? What's that? No, what is that? Just nicotine. No Just straight nicotine Oh is it like Yeah like

Oh really Yeah Oh that would get me too buzzed and weird it out Yeah yeah No you'll get anxious And you might throw up If you ever want to just throw up with the boys one time This is like one of the best ways to do it

Yeah I do that on the weekend I love throwing up with the boys Yeah it's awesome That was the That was the sequel to the boys are back in town A follow up single Throwing up with the boys But

No No, when I had my period in the South, when I first became a woman. No, I had my dipping period, and I would chew tobacco, and I had, what was it, Red Man, and... Copenhagen Long Cup? Those were the, that was the snuff. That was like the skull in Copenhagen were the stuff he put, and then the chewing tobacco was Beachwood or Red Man. and they would both get me fucking dizzy and eventually smoked

and they smoked for years. That's what men do, they get dizzy. That's one of the most masculine things you can be is driving a truck, a little dizzy, is sort of anxious. That's what they don't tell you. You want to be a real man, you've got to feel uneasy for the next six to eight hours, man.

Yeah, yeah. That's what we don't talk about. Rednecks are really kind of anxious. Like cowboys are sort of on edge, like jittery doing tobacco all day. I would imagine, yeah. One of my favorite things about that kind of culture and subculture where it bleeds over in a MAGA stuff is the how kind of macho. Like they see, and sometimes correctly, like a fe quality to men and the progressive, liberal, lefty thing.

but their idea of the archetype that Trump is somehow a tough guy, macho guy, he dyes his hair, he wears makeup, he wears diapers, like, for real. But he listens to macho man. By the wine. Right, right. I didn't even put that in there. There was more macho than doing the Johnny Bravo dance to macho. I used to when I go to Yash a while. Yankees games.

I was a big Red Sox band. I'd go to the Yankees Red Sox games. And when the YMCA, you know, the seventh inning, the YMCA song, I would just yell out, like, this is a song about having an anonymous gay sex. I just tell people, like, you know that this song is about having anonymous gay sex. Yeah. And the celebration of that. You were trying to get a ball thrown at you.

That's what it was. You were trying to get beamed. Nobody, nobody ever, well, I didn't say it to the players. I said it to the people and I was, you know, clearly a Red Sox fan. It was, I always enjoyed it because there's good, it's good nature. And the Yankees fans are really knowledgeable and nobody, like, you know, there's no, like, threat of physical violence or anything like that. Unlike Fenway Park where I've seen some, like, you get, you, a little tougher there to be a Yankees fan at Fenway Park than a Red Sox fan of Yankee.

stadium. Yeah, that makes sense. There's definitely, I think, more little brother syndrome. Yeah. Like if you're in Boston, you're like, hey, we were actually sick. Yeah. Because New Yorkers are like, we don't think about anyone really. That is very true. That was it was something I, you know,

learned pretty quickly when I was in Boston there, like every third cover of Boston magazine or people would talk about, you know, what's better, New York or Boston? The answer, my surprise you. Let me guess, Boston. You know, our pizzas, you know, whatever the thing is. And, and you're like, nobody in New York ever fucking thinks about you ever. All you do is constantly think about New York

how you stack up and how you're better actually. And nobody gives a shit. Nobody thinks about you ever. How often are you going to baseball games? I feel like this is frequent for you. Yeah. I was just that one in Atlanta a couple weeks ago. I think I'm the exact opposite of you in the sense that I like baseball as a game to play. I was the manager of my high school baseball team, and I'm not saying that to brag. It's just a true thing. It's not a brag. Well, we were a state runner-up, so. Now it's a bit of a brag. I mean, yes, technically it's a bit of a brag. I just don't want you to feel like I'm better than you. Oh, I don't. Okay. Just want to make that clear. But I love baseball as a game. I want my kids to play baseball. I don't understand why. I'm not. I don't understand why. I don't. I don't understand why. I'm just want to make sure. I want to make that clear. I want to make that clear. I don't know. I don't understand why. I don't. I don't know why. I I don't get it. I think it's the greatest game for young people to play. I've never heard that sentiment. It's so it's I love watching it. I mean, there's so many variables. Can you explain why? I don't think. Yeah, there's so many variables with every pitch and when you, the more you know about a game and if you manage a game, then you know that there is all kinds of math involved. Um, uh, And especially as you get towards the latter part of the game and you're dealing with a pitch count and a bullpen that needs a day off. And just knowing all these certain things, lefties versus righties and what kind of, you know, knowing information on the batter coming up. And are you going to try to get a runner over from first to second?

And how are you going to do that? and do you just want to go for, you know, do these guys who are going for the long ball, are you going for dropping one in? Seeing the chess of it. The chess, exactly, yeah. Hmm. I like the chess,

and I like the, um, the managing part of it, I guess. And, uh, and it's fun. And it, and also you, you're,

you know, there's, uh, there's no clock too to it. So that's kind of cool. And the one thing I miss, it's the only thing I miss about not having the, about having the DH in the National League

is I miss that kind of a pitcher having, pitcher having to hit, and then when you go to different parks in the World Series, like that the manager has to come up with different. Oh, that's interesting. Because that's another thing that bugged me is I'd be like, okay,

the new Fenway has a, like you can hit Homer's different. Like the new Yankee Stadium, you can hit easier for yard. Like it just seemed like all these variables where I was like, this is crazy. I remember in high school going to different like, you know, fields and stuff being like, this field is totally different than our field. How is that a part of the sport? That's cool. Yeah, I guess it bothered me, but now that I see it this way.

There is something interesting that all American sports are kind of proxies for war. Like football and baseball are like the biggest sports, basketball. even to an extent more so than like soccer, for example. American sports are all like war proxies. So like baseball is like, okay, we have to strategize our guys in order to dominate the other guys. And football is the same exact thing. It's like, okay, we got to strategize our guys to dominate the other guys. Whereas like soccer is like we're all going to kind of flow and it's like much more fluid.

And I wonder if that's a part of like American psyche why we attach ourselves as sports in different ways. There's also like a commercial. I don't know. That's a real, that's a great, interesting observation. Yeah, but even basketball you get to the very end that it's like okay, we got to foul this guy at this time so we can get the ball back so we can score like it's all very much like Five steps ahead thinking where a soccer is just like just flow catch a vibe It's very like you know well I there's probably some people who might Take umbrage with your sure sure I played soccer my whole life and like I just loved the game because it was very fluid

And there were guys on my team that didn't speak any English some of my my closest friends. I've never spoken to like like guys. I'm like this is my brother. Yeah, I'm like this is my brother. Yeah, I'm that doesn't speak English, and he's like, I'm winning games with him. I love this guy. Whereas baseball is the exact opposite where it's just mostly chilling. So I was like,

as a kid, I would have my kids play baseball because the game is mostly... And you're apart from her, but when you're on the field, you're part from her. But most of the game, you're sitting in the dugout,

just like trying to figure out how to make the coach sit in water. It was like, basically being in the dugg, I was like, what can we do to like fuck with the coach? And like,

how can we put as many hats as possible one guy and have him stand there and pretending like he doesn't have a thousand hats on. Right. And so I think for kids to learn how to like socialize and like play baseball. But as far as like the fun of the game and fun of watching, I like watching soccer way more because it's like fluid. It's nonstop.

I didn't like soccer until, and this is true of any sport really, but I didn't like soccer until I understood what was happening. Because before I did, it just was guys running up and down and maybe what do you get 12 shots on goal or something like that. And it's just boring. And then I lived in England for. years and and you know all my friends loved it

watched the games had their teams and I would ask questions and the more I learned about it the more I could appreciate what was happening yeah soccer's like a like a female orgasm have you heard of that no so when women climax

wait what women climax yeah some some wait you're asking me if I heard of a female orgasm that's not a thing that exists it's mythical no no it is it is no that's not a real thing That's a thing they talk about. It's like a unicorn or... No, I'm pretty sure. Unless...

I guess they could fake it. You think... I don't know. I... This is all news to me. So, yeah, all right. Well, I'll go with you, Mark. Okay.

It's like a female orgasm. Big quotes. Big air quotes. Yeah. But it's all buildup. It's all like... It's not about the goal. It's about the buildup.

You know what I mean? It's all like you got a... It's all for play. Whereas like, I don't know. Basketball is just like male orgasms. It's just like, boom, boom, score, score, score. And football's like, exactly.

I mean, just following the logic. That's where I was actually trying to get to with all this. Have you, do you know Carlin's bit about the language of football versus baseball? No. Oh, it's great. It's great. It's really, just Google it. Because it's all the language of like, you know, manly versus not manly.

like football's played on a gridiron and baseball's played on a diamond and you know whatever and it's it I'm not going to do it justice but yeah so it's a longer bit that's a old Carlin bit I think that you're stealing no I just said it's

Carlin I think you were taking credit for it I did not I said do you know the Carlin bit I swear to God if you go back and edit in me saying the word my here's this bit that I came up with well David I think you have stuff to do I do. Yeah, I think we've gone over time.

You said you only want to do 20 minutes to plug all your stuff, and you didn't really give a shit about doing the show anyway. Yeah. But you've been very gracious, and I will forfeit your debt that you were going to pay me. Oh, right. We'll call it even. Okay, now my little kid has something to look forward to.

Hopefully. Another day. Another day, right? So that's my gift to you. Thank you so much, genuinely, in all sincerity. I really do appreciate this. Oh, my pleasure. I'm a huge fan, really.

Well, thank you. I enjoyed this. And, yeah, good luck to you and all. And I love this. This is great. I appreciate it. Yeah. I'd love to have you back.

And I will take you up on your offer to come visit your home at Upstate. I did not offer that. I will see you there. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. That's not a thing. All right. We will come up next week.

Thank you, David.