Camp Gagnon - Skydiving, Motorcycles, & Building an Empire | Black Bear Brand Creator

Episode Date: March 15, 2023

Today we're with Josh Sirlin, owner of Black Bear Brand who's made jackets for Joe Rogan & Andrew Schulz. We talk about skydiving with Red Bull and losing everything at 28. WELCOME TO CAMP.Mark Gagnon is our HostWill Schwartz is our Content Producer and Lead EditorAce Taylor provides Additional EditingSpencer Weinstein is our Community ManagerKostis Zacho is our Clips Editor

I lost everything at the age of 28. I'd have somebody painting graffiti in my office. And I'm in a tornado. This is Josh Surlin, aka the creator of Black Bear brand. He has made jackets for Joe Rogan, Andrew Schultz, and Orlando Bloom. And today, we are talking about how he skydived with Red Bull skydiving team, how he lost everything and how he made it all back. Welcome to camp.

Josh Surlin. One of the stories I want to start with. Okay. Why does you jump out of an airplane in Panama with Red Bull people? Who was that you jumped out of the plane with? That specific jump, the one that I was telling you about, the one that I had that brutal landing. Yeah. The main girl from Italy, that's the Red Bull Wing-Souter.

And who are the Red Bull wing-suiters? So we were all there for a thing called Nitrothon, which Nitrothon was put on by Travis Pistrana. And one of the guys that was one of the main ramp builders at that time for Travis and for Nitro Circus. And he was the one that engineered and designed that ramp. him and I, because I was invited to Nitrothon, and I was doing a variety of creative projects for the resort, for like apparel and knick-knack shit. And you just knew the guy from like back in the day kind of thing?

How Hayes came to me was through the Red Bull projects I was doing for Mastercraft, the boat company. So when Mastercraft would either sponsor or partner with Red Bull, or one of the athletes that was, you know, a Mastercraft athlete as well as a Red Bull athlete, I would be the one that made that Mastercraft boat a Red Bull boat. So that, and then I would do a variety of C-Dos for, I think, surfers, and I think I did a couple skis for a couple pro snowboarders. That's cool.

So that was kind of my stick with Red Bull. I loved all of that stuff. I mean, I loved, I had never jumped out of plane, but I wanted to. You know, I mean, I did anything that I could get that feeling that you get when you do those type of things. Right. I mean, I skied as much as I can. I had boats. You like things that require 100% focus.

It's because my focus is one of the most difficult things for me to do is to focus. I feel like that. That's how I feel of my motorcycle. Like when I sometimes will just kind of be all over the place and I have so many things I'm thinking about and so many things I got to worry about and anxiety, whatever else. but when you're on the bike and you're going down the highway and you're kind of moving through mountains and shit, not only is it like fun and really cool and exciting, it just requires 100% focus. Same thing with stand-up. It's the same thing.

You go on stage and there's just like immediate presence and grounding. You have to be in the moment that you're in. And like jumping out of an airplane is the same way. You can't be thinking about what you have tomorrow. You have to be so present. And the external forces are forcing that presence on you. And it's a really cool thing. And I think that's why I'm drawn to bikes probably for the similar reason as you.

Yeah. I mean, skydiving was my first experience because the repercussions are fucking what they are, right? It's like when you are forced to be present is what I fell in love with, right? So it wasn't necessarily the skydiving. It wasn't necessarily the community around skydiving, skydiving that I like. But you're weird with the skydiving though because the first time you jumped out, you didn't have a parachute. No, I didn't have an instructor. You did have a parachute, I hope.

Yeah, yeah, I've always had a parachute. But no, you didn't have a static line. So you can speed through. In my experience, I was able to speed through being certified because I had a deadline so I could jump in Panama. So this guy hits you up. He's like, yo, come hang out with us. And if you're certified, you can jump.

And so you're like. I was already in Panama. Like, and I was there and I couldn't jump. Like, because I'd never jumped out of a plane. And that was part of the schick. I mean, as soon as I got home, I got certified. It was like, what, six months? Less.

Wow. And bad recollection of exact numbers. numbers, but it was between 50 and 70 jumps in me being certified. And I did that in a short window. But you're using, you're not using an instructor, you're using what's called a static line, which effectively works. Once you get to a certain altitude, it automatically will no, it pulls. I mean, your static line, which I think your minimum is the first three jumps. Your cord is in essence pulled as you exit the plane. So you're not, you're not free falling worth anything. It's all under canopy work that you're being kind of gauged for yeah so you finally get certified and then

you were telling me the story before which is awesome you basically finally do the jump in panama with the red bull suitors jumping in a place like Panama it's like going there's no rules you don't have to be certified you don't it's like going it's like when the first parachute they gave me it didn't have the computer in it's like going it's a bit dodgy it was for somebody much smaller to me so it's like going and I still was wanting to jump I just wasn't going to jump with that parachute so I waited until I could use Travis's parachute because in my mindset, it's like, well, Travis is going to jump in it. His manager and like the packing of the shoot is done for Travis. You know, it's like, that one's dodgy, right?

But Travis isn't dodgy. And Travis gave it to? Yeah. Yeah. I brought it from him. So I could, and that made me feel real comfortable. Yeah, of course. So if it's good enough for him, it's probably good enough.

But then we got in this dodgy plane, right? And we've been partying the entire time. But none of these people, they're all at the highest level. There's like nobody in there. I mean, I was the only hack. There was one other person that didn't have a wingsuit on. Who else was the rookie that was with you? Oh, it wasn't.

It was the one girl that's a Red Bull, like professional skydiving. Oh, really? Yeah. So when you say wings? She just wasn't wearing a wingsuit. Oh, like literally like, though. Yeah, the squirrel seats. Everyone was wearing squirrel suits.

Oh, hilarious. Yeah. That's what I mean. So it's like it was all squirrel suit people. Oh, crazy. And then me and the girl that often or normally would wear a squirrel suit, but she wasn't, just for whatever reason. Yeah, she didn't feel like it. She filmed me.

I've got videos of her, like, filming me. Oh, that's crazy. That's the thing. In Panama, I guess you don't need a license or certification to take off. You kind of need one to land. Well, I mean, you should have one no matter what, because that basically means that you've jumped enough time to know what the fuck you're doing. Right. Right.

But like when you're going through there's no you're not under any regulations. You're not even with any, but we were in a plane that was a privately owned plane. Yeah. Right? That they just call up somebody that they knew, that knew somebody else. And we had during that week or four days, it's like when there was like three different planes that flew us around. Right. But we were going from racing motor cross bikes to racing four wheelers to doing jet packs in the water.

like that's what nitrathon is it's basically you're just doing a slew of like half jackass but half like legitimate like things that we're doing on a motor cross or on a you know supercross track racing four wheelers with three people on it oh that's sick right you know while then there's consumption happened the entire fucking time yeah that was your drinking days too yeah so it's like when nothing broke or stopped i mean people were drinking i mean most of the guys would have beer in there with them when they jumped. No, really? Yeah, they're drinking when they were under canopy. Oh, that's crazy.

Yeah, that's probably against the rules. But if you're in Panama, no, there's no rules. I mean, you literally, you're going through security as you're going through the airport and you're just taking out your knife and your hand in the knife to people and they hand it right back to you. Wow. Because everyone's jumping with a knife, right? So you can cut your shoe and cut certain things if you're in bed shape. Oh, crazy. So it's

like, no, everyone's got knives. It's like on, I mean, Travis jump with no shoes and no shirt. I'm jumping in skate shoes and like cut off shorts. and skate helmet. Are you seeing TSA to get onto the little jumping plane? Oh, no, yeah. There's nobody.

It's like when it's just, oh. Wait, who do you hinge your knife to? You're jumping at an airport. Like when I, the first airport. Oh, so you sort of go through TSA. Yeah, when I, it's a small shitty airport. Right. But you still have some type of security.

I didn't realize. Federallies, I think. But it's like when, well, that was one of the funnier things. It's like when we're in line to do it at the first airport. I don't know my passport number. I didn't then at least know what my number was on my passport. And that's all. all we had to do is write down our passport number.

And then they passed us through. They didn't have to look at anything. You didn't have to show them ID. It was literally right down it. I was right behind Travis. So I just wrote down with like changed a couple of digits. I didn't even know what the list of numbers were. I didn't know how many digits were even in it.

It's like when I was just like, all right. Change that one and that one. Six to an eight, three to a seven. We're good. Fuck. All right. That's fucking eight. Oh, that's hilarious.

That's wild. But you, that was the one jump after you jumps. The jump was good, but it was the landing that got tricky. Yeah, who cares about the jump? You only give a shit about the landing. Fucking really, right? Yeah. But it was just the changing of wins, you know,

and when you're a novice or, you know, at the level I was, which was whatever level that was, I guess. But it's like when my landing pattern was pretty much set as I jump, when I jumped out of the plane. Like I wasn't making much many changes to that. Because as I start my landing, pattern. I'm up fairly high. Yeah. Because I'm not fucking very good. I didn't shit the bed in the sense that, you know, my pattern, it's like going, and I guess that was the common mistake when you're

doing that kind of stuff is that you're going to change direction. When you realize you're going the wrong direction, I realized that I had a wind behind me. I needed a headwind. Instead, I had like a crazy back wind that was pushing me. And I was hitting the ground. And you have a small little pocket you got to land on. Yeah, I mean, gravel too. It's like I was, I was trying to land on gravel. because it was my only choice. And I had a back one that had me, like, first toe to the ground was, I think I was going, like, they were just saying around 30 miles per hour or something. What?

Yeah, it's fucking fast. I'd like to think I'm fucking fast, but I'm fucking, I mean, this is basically jumping out of a car at 30 miles an hour. Yeah, but I was at least standing up. So I was standing up with my toes going like a fucking, like a cartoon. It's literally just like, okay, jump out of a pickup truck going 30 and then just start running. I was running before I touched the ground. It was probably hilarious to watch. Yeah, you're fucking, it's like.

Fred Flintstone, just trying to make it happen. I was like going, I was giving it a fucking go. Yeah, of course. And then you just start tumbling. Yeah, and then I roll and then I had a couple more, I think I, I felt as if I ran a couple more steps amongst my bounces. I think so. Full front flip, running, full front flip, running. Roll, roll, roll, and then you're up on your thing.

Do you like video of that? No. Oh, this was so long ago. It was like going, there's no cell phone cameras. But you got the video you're jumping, though. Yeah, but she was wearing a GoPro on her. Yeah. But everyone else landed okay?

Oh yeah. I mean, everyone's a fucking wizard. They're all pros, right? Yeah, fucking wizards. It was like going, and that's like, I remember the look in the face

of the manager, it's like going, do I really give a shit about if Josh is okay? Is Travis's parachute okay? Yeah, that parachute is expensive. For sure. Because Travis has got to jump next.

Yeah. It's like going to most things. So it's like, I knew my place. It's like when I, it wasn't. Parachute. dirt bike

Josh No yeah I was way lower I was like I was fucking low Like way down here It's like as long as I was still alive It's like when there is no Oh that's insane I would love to skydive

I just don't know if I would do it Without an instructor I feel like I would want someone To strapped to me The Gayway you know Well I think I'd say Do either I would say to recommend anybody

I'd say Do it without Well I mean eventually There's always Possible things that could go wrong But there's also possible things that could go wrong

if somebody's strapped you, right? That's what I'm saying what percentage difference is it? I have no idea. If you had a guess, you jump out with an instructor,

it's probably like 99% safe. You've got all the capabilities to be able to be instructed on how you, if your lines got tangled to untangle your lines, right? It's like going to,

they'll instruct you on some things that, you know, as your parachute gets pulled, you know, you still have a certain amount of time to be able to untangle your, because I've had tangled wires or tangled cables or whatever it is. It's like when I've had untangle them.

And it's wild how you get kind of judged or you get to see how you respond in those moments. Right? And I imagine, I mean, the pressure in which you've experienced, this would be different, but it would, it's not as if you're walking from experiencing no moments of pressure in your life. Yeah, that's true. Right. So it's like going and it's like going, but you'd walk away from if those, like, I had like, you know, thoughts of how awful it would be to have your lines crossed. Yeah, fuck yeah, I did. Yeah. And I was like going, but I wasn't going to not do it despite the possibility of. Anxious though. Like all the things that you do, whether it's like really intense skiing,

motorcycle, skydiving with the Red, you know, Red Bull team. Like, is it anxiety that's happening inside before. So that was the funniest thing. So the girl, like the Red Bull girl, I still remember her thing. She's like going, you look so green inside the airplane. I hated. I hated going going going up in the airplane. A small airplane that felt insecure and all these other things. Like there are so many insecure feelings I got while being in the small packed, you know, leaning down, claustrophobic shit and you're strapped to things and then you're jumped down. I was almost felt free as soon as I jumped out of the plane. Like I felt more confined and more anxious.

That's how it is like with stand-up. Like I think about like the most nervous I've ever been for a show, right? Like whether it's a show where like there's people that are going to be there that are like important or it's a really big venue or it's, you know, the last thing. Like whatever the external circumstances that makes me really nervous for the show, it's always getting to the theater. or getting to the venue until the second you step on stage. That's the worst part.

But once you're on stage, it's just, you're in it. Like, that's the presence thing. We're just like, you're now in a moment where you have to be present, and it's impossible to think of some other thing. And as soon as you start thinking of some other thing, that's when your wires are crossed, and that's like when you're fucking in a spiral. But for the most part, 99% of the time,

the second you're on stage and the light hits you, you're in the thing. But it's all the lead up time and the thinking. It's when your brain, my brain is doing brain stuff and looking at all this other shit that doesn't matter when I get fucking anxious and queasy where I'm like, yeah, this sucks.

But the second it happens, then it's fine. And then afterwards I'm good. But it's just the anticipation of the event that is so much worse than the event itself. And now it's repeating that and doing that as often as you can and as soon as you start to have that feeling of anxiousness or that feeling of where your mind's taking off, right? is to make that step, right?

And it's to, if those moments come in skydiving, they certainly did, when they come, you know, at the top of a cliff, they come as you're walking into a presentation. If they're, you know, the pass is shitty and I'm going to cross it on my bike. Yeah. It's like when making that step or taking that step is everything. And then you realize it's like going, I just have to start. to make sure I even move towards taking that step quicker.

Do you intentionally seek those moments like of anxiety and like stress? I see it in weird places though. It's like when you sometimes you find those in places where you wouldn't expect them. Right. At least I do. It's like when it's not always in the most obvious ones. Like jumping out of plane is fucking obvious. Like I mean, I think most people are going to find themselves anxious in that.

Of course. I'm sure there's the people in which I was with probably found and had no anxiousness. But maybe even a little, though. You ever see those videos of people that are like in the plane jumping for the first time? And like they're just freaking out. They're like a cat going to the vet. They're just like in the plane, just like grab it on everything. And it's like their first time jump and they got the instructor.

And the guy's like, nope, we're going. Like I'm weirdly fascinated about that feeling of pure terror where like I can't move. Have you ever had it though? I've never had it like that. No. I've never had it where like I can't move. Like, you know the videos I'm talking about. Like, the girl is just like.

You see it in bungee jumping a lot, which is always my funniest one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you're on the edge and you're just like, actually, I'm not going to do it. And then they just push you off. But like, it's that moment. I don't think I've ever been fully terrified. And part of me is interested in being there because I know that there is a moment where I will be fully terrified. So heights don't do it to you.

Right. So do heights bother you? I mean, I think the same amount that it bothers like the average person where like, you get to the edge, you kind of jump, you free tingle a little. But no, I like, like, I grew up kind of like doing like, little cliff jumping things. I would get up to like 50, 55, 60 footers, like in North Carolina, just jumping during the summers.

And like, you do the feet and hands and, like, hit the water to get, that was my favorite. But no, high. And how young? I was probably high school. Okay. It was probably like summers in high school for, like, soccer camps and stuff. So, yeah, it was probably like 15, 16. Yeah.

I mean, that's probably an average age for those things. Yeah. And mine was no different. Like, we'd find. we'd hunt bridges and do cliffs and all that stuff. Yeah. I was always frightened up heights. Really?

Always. And the thing is, it's like going, but there was something that I didn't like being scared of it. So I did it a lot. What degree of fear? Like, when Schultz gets near heights, he hates it.

We got videos of him. Like we put out vlog and stuff. But partially, I think it's like when it's what that means to it's like going, I didn't want to be scared. but I was. Isn't that a funny thing? So it's like one.

So then part of it's like going and I knew that I needed to do it even as I was younger. And I was almost proving to myself, not proving to anybody else. Yeah. That anger about fear. I have that sometimes. I remember it a lot when I was a kid. I would be afraid of things and be angry. I'd be so frustrated that I was afraid.

Like I remember I was like seven or eight and I would leave my bedroom because I would like wake up in the middle of night. It would be three in the morning and I would be like, I would like feel the dread come over me because I knew that I was alone in my room and it was dark and I was scared. So the second I woke up, I'm just in fear and I'm frustrated at how afraid I am and I'm like, I'm going to go to sleep. I'm going to go to sleep because I'm not afraid. But I would be too overcome with fear and I would start creating these fantasies and these scary scenarios in my head where there'd be a robber or a burglar or someone's in my room, whatever. And then I would eventually just begrudgingly just wake up, put my feet on the ground and just be like and walk downstairs into my parents.

And how old? I was probably like seven, eight. Okay, so fuck it, yeah. It was young, but I was, but I remember so tangibly. I remember the anger more than the fear. And I remember walking into my parents' room, because this would happen like once every three or four days, something like that. And I'd walk into my parents room and be like, hey, can I sleep on the floor? And they'd be like, sure. And they had like a little pad.

And how many, remind me how many siblings, if any? Six siblings. Okay. So I was six. Yeah, yeah, I was six of seven. So you were number. Number six. I have one younger sister.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, but I remember like walking into my parents room, laying on the floor and then punching the pillow over and over just like, fuck, why am I scared? And I just remember the anger about the fear, more than the fear. And it's an interesting thing you point out, like being when you're a kid like, oh, I'm afraid of heights and it's annoying that I'm afraid of heights. And I'm going to seek it out. Yeah.

And I think a lot of this is me kind of analyzing me as a kid as a fucking adult. So it's like when I'm not even sure if I realized it. Yeah. To be honest. But it's like going, I would get in an environment. and I, you know, having an ego as a fucking young boy. It's like going, I mean, I worked on the center shaft of the space needle, which is that tall building in the center of Seattle.

Of course. I worked on the roof amongst some steelworkers between the summer of high school and college. I worked as a steelworking apprentice, basically a fucking hack that did like the shitwork amongst some steelworkers. But it was all, and one of the jobs I had was. was like me doing arc welding and some of the stuff of the center shaft of space. I got to walk on the roof and everything. And then I did another job that had me, we were working in the hangar that does some assembly stuff for the Boeing airplanes. So it's really fucking tall, right?

That job also would have me climb, like, because they were like biker guys and fucking steelworkers. and I was a young punk kid, 17, 18 years old, and then I'd have to bring something up to the guy that's welding that's up, I don't know, 15 stories or whatever it is, and I'd have to jimmy up through the scaffolding, you know, and it was, yeah, it was an ego thing at that point where it was like going on, it's like, I don't want them to think I'm not fucking this. Of course, especially when you have a job, but it's like,

my job is to do the thing that I'm afraid of. Oh, and it's like when I, I mean, I thought these old, you know, biker, you know, welders guys were cool. So I don't want them to think I wasn't. So I was doing all that. I was like going out, I was fast and I was fucking like jumping up and fucking just running this stuff up. And so all those things, I mean, I was doing it. And I despised heights. Yeah.

But I was still doing it. No one would have fuck. I mean, maybe they all knew. I have no idea. right but I didn't think anybody knew um but it's like going no I've never been comfortable with heights even today but I don't think one would know I mean a lot of things I do I'm like going I think I feed on the way I feel in those places of discomfort what do you mean you feed on it I'm a I'm like drawn to it so I I'm not even sure how or why specifically but I think it's that

I seek to feel. I think just feeling something. Feeling something is something that I run towards or you know, I'm drawn towards or were you doing that even when you were a kid? Like obviously when you were working at high school,

but even younger than that, like. Yeah, I always wanted to. Yeah, I mean, I, and it's again, me thinking back and kind of analyzing, you know, what may have had me, you know, want to do all the, you know, the sports in which I did, which were highly physical. It was always the most physical sport I could do. Yeah. Um, with the most aggression and, you know, most conflict and all that things. Those are the things in which I was running it. Were you angry?

I think as a kid? No, really. No. Yeah. You just liked the sports. Yeah. I mean, I liked hitting things. Yeah. I mean, that's all I did. It's like with any sport that I'd go into. It was football. It was the aggression. And I would be the guy that, you know, was the full. back. You know, I would be the inside linebacker. Those were the positions in which I was always end up, probably because that's where I was physically suited to be. Sure. But it's also where I wanted to be. Like, no, and I wanted to run into people. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't even try to run around people. You're not like a really violent dude, though. Like, I don't even see as like particularly confrontational. Like, I mean, no, I don't, I mean, I don't feel as if I am.

Right. I mean, I'm not, I, you wouldn't find me like out looking for some confrontation. Sure. I would assume, you know, find, yeah, I mean, I don't have a lot. I mean, especially as an adult. I mean, there's, I don't think there's many reasons for me too. Right. But confrontations aren't really something that's in my fucking life. Yeah. Right.

I'm not around a bunch of people that bring that or have that even themselves. Like, I'm not, it doesn't make me happy. Yeah. Like, fuck. Yeah, I'm the same way. Yeah. It's like I don't find joy in it. Yeah.

But it makes me smile. Right. But you like the sports that were like. semi-violent or like, oh yeah, and I still do. I mean, part of even riding a bike,

there's some... There's aggression in that. There's some, you know, yeah, there's plenty of aggression, but I think there's a difference between aggression

and just sheer violence. Yeah. It's like, I don't think I've ever seek violence in the raw sense of just wanting to harm somebody. It's like one, but there's part of,

I think part of what, playing any of those physical sports, especially as a young boy, where you're, testosterone's going fucking nuts right and it's like going you want and you at least i did um yeah there's aggression you fucking wrestle you fight it's like when it's part of it i mean that's part of growing up as a boy at least it wasn't my life i mean i've got no i mean similar to you but i've got there's six boys oh really yeah i don't realize you had 20 siblings yeah so there's six of us and they're all

boys and are you the oldest second oldest second oldest uh and how old is the youngest Jordan Yeah This is good I have no idea how fucking old You is to be honest I don't I didn't say this shit

I have no idea No he's in his 30s I mean I'm I remember everyone's ages In my family Like five or six years ago And then that's still How old they are to me

To this day I've misaged myself So it's like So I can't Bro that happened To my brother's friend We were like All hanging out at dinner

One time And we were like How old are you by the way And he's like I'm 36 And I was like Oh that's cool And then we're kind of talking

and my brother all of a sudden realized he's like, dude, I'm 35, how were we in the same grade? When is your birthday? And they started deducing this and all of a sudden he realized that he's been using the wrong birthday for an entire like year and a half.

He just thought he was the wrong age. The next year? Literally when people asked him how old he was, he was 36 when really he was 35. And he just like in the middle of this Buffalo Wildlings is like, dude, I just got a year back. Like I've never seen like the elation on someone's face.

of being like, I have all this time. Like, he just couldn't believe it. And literally was using the wrong age forever. So I've never done it with myself yet. But I do with my siblings all the time. So I don't hold that against you. You are 26. Yeah, exactly.

So it's a lot of less numbers. So it's like, on your fucking numbers to count. At what point of birthdays just and I haven't mattered? Like, what point are you just like? I mean, I think to some people, they apparently matter a lot. To me, it really doesn't fucking matter. Well, what age? You're just like 32 and you're like, yeah, I'm over.

I don't do birthdays anymore. Yeah. I mean, I, that's what I have to look forward to, huh? Just time being a construct. I mean, big family. I do so many things independent. My closest friends are kind of scattered throughout the world. Right.

So it's kind of just like going, I don't put much weight on my birthday. Like as in I need to. It's like going, I'm happy that I've lived another year, I guess. But it's like going, it's like fucking party about it or celebrate about it. I want somebody to buy me a gift. You don't do a birthday week? You don't make it a whole thing on Facebook? Josh's birthday week?

Fuck, no. Come on, dude. I'm going to throw you a birthday week, whether you like it or not. I'm going to make it a whole thing. Giddy up. I'm going to make it a whole thing. I'm going to come over. We're going to get all your siblings.

We're going to get the ones, even the ones you don't know their ages. We're going to have a whole siesta. It's going to be crazy. All right. I mean, hey, it's like, I hope everyone has a good time. I mean, we'll have fun. But it's like going, and I look at most of my life in the sense. It's like going, I want to do whatever I want to do every day.

Yeah. Right? So to wait for this one day. year to do the things in which I want to do. I go, that's fucking waste. Yeah, you found a cool way to like, you found a cool lane for freedom. Like, I feel like you are generally pretty free. Like, I think there's very few things that you do that you really don't want to do, which is a cool place to be in. I'm like trying to get to that spot in my life where I only do the things that I like to do or that I know are good to do. Is that make sense? Like, I'm going to have kids one day and I

might not like to take them to school all the time. But I'm going to because I know it's a good thing to do. Does that make sense? Well, and also it's like when then it's that mindset towards you end up liking taking your kids to school. Not that I do. I don't have any children. But it's like going and it's, you might not now look at it as something you'd like to do, right? But you have no idea. And then instead of looking at it, if you didn't at that time, find some type of enjoyment in it. It's like going, well, kind of alter that way of thinking or reassess what about it that's providing all these wonderful things in relationship with your children or whatever.

And then you change that mindset towards that. It's like going, there's plenty of things that I could look at from one angle or one point of view and say I don't enjoy it. But most of those things I find enjoyment in because it's such a, part of the game type piece that those other things don't work without it. So it's really a part of these things in which I thoroughly enjoy. So this is really an integral part of that, which makes me then in return enjoy it.

Right. But I look at it with appreciation. Yeah. Gratitude, I think, is like the single greatest skill. If you can practice like radical gratitude and just be grateful for all these, all the little things, it just makes your life so much better just in general without really having to change the circumstances themselves. However, changing the really shitty circumstances is a generally positive thing. Well, yeah, and it's like going, but that should never not be part of

what you're attempting and working on anyhow, right? It's like going, it's like one, it's like being complacent and accepting something that fucking sucks is kind of fucking silly. Yeah. But to know that that thing that maybe sucks is part of the process in having the things that don't suck and the process of this soon to not be part of your life. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break real quick because I got to tell you a story. Dear friend of mine was driving on the highway the other night. Driving all of a sudden drunk driver comes on the highway the wrong direction. Headlights going down the highway the wrong way. My friend swerves out of the way, gets sideswiped, to get spun around. It's a nightmare. And the last thing you want to do after you get into a bad

accident is have to find an attorney and you've got to call someone and they're asking you questions and it's just a lot to deal with. If you're ever injured, you can check out Morgan and Morgan and getting on the line with an attorney couldn't be easier. It's more like using an app or like ordering food than it is trying to get an attorney. And eight clicks or less, you can submit a claim to Morgan and get on the line with someone that can help you. They have over 100 offices nationwide, over 800 lawyers. One of the amazing things about Morgan and Morgan is that their fee is free unless they win. Unless they win your case, it is free. That's a pretty good deal. If you're interested for more information, go to for the people.com slash gagnon. That is for the people,

f-or-the-people.com slash Gagg-A-G-N-O-N-O-N or dial pound law. That's for the people.com slash gagnon or pound law from your cell phone. Now let's get back to the show. So how do you get to that point? Like how have you arrived at a place where you kind of just do what you want to do and you live freely. Was it always like this? Were you born to a bunch of money and you just got to... No, I certainly have not been born to a lot of money. But I don't think I was suited to have money for most of my life.

Right. I don't think I was suited for it. Yeah, you've lived multiple different lives, but I guess you can kind of make it into like BC and AD. Part of me, part of the process is like the conquest or what you do in accomplishing something and having something that you're going for and then accomplishing that having money at the end of that and then acknowledging all those things that you enjoyed in that process. A weird part of, it's like when I have a high regard for money because it's a critical part

of doing certain things and many things can't be done without it. But I've been fortunate simultaneous to have money be kind of discarded, but only thought of as a tool and money isn't what I'm seeking. I'm seeking for something or an experience or like even a physical thing. And it's like going, I look and try to figure out how I can obtain that thing

or that experience. What is that thing or is that experience? Is it fluctuate? Yeah, I mean, it could be one element of a business. It could be something as silly as a watch or a motorcycle or a jacket or a pair of shoes. It could be, and I don't mean,

it's like all of those things mean a lot to me, but there's generally like an adventure or story or something that constitutes what I find so valuable, and that's that process of obtaining it or a process of what now is associated with it because me obtaining it had all these wonderful experiences and adventures and this conquest of succeeding in it. So,

But money, you know, is, I mean, I don't think about money at all. No, of course I do. But I can think about a bunch of things simultaneous, but it's still not on the top. Money's not number one. Not even close. But did it, was it, did it used to be? No, I mean, I think there's phases and the younger I was, the more I couldn't, I didn't yet find that it's like going money's just money's just one piece it's like going if you want a

house on the water we assume that let's first get money then to obtain that house in the water and then I awkwardly because dyslexia and everything else that had worked out in my life it's like going I never ended up obtaining or achieving anything by going through a traditional you know step in step of processes. Sure. So like I wanted to go to college or I wanted a degree and stuff. It's like one. Most of it was fucking a slew of workarounds. It really was. Like nothing happened in the sequence it was supposed to. And nothing happened like, you know, the guy next to me who was following kind of

the process in which the process of the way in which you, it was designed. Right. Mine was like one. No, it happened fucking. some shifty stuff or some there's some workarounds and but I ended up in the same place. Right. So I was always looking at how can I get to that end place? How can I just have that house I want? Right. And then I eventually, you know, my boat came from my partnership with Mastercraft because I was doing all the graphics.

It's like when, so I got the boat. I never got the money to buy the boat. I just got the boat. Right? And when I wanted skis or if I wanted sunglasses, it's like when a lot of my things were like, No, I was doing a project with Von Zipper. So that's how I got my glasses. I mean, I got paid eventually too.

And then it's like when my shoes were mostly projects. And I had a massive number of rad fucking Nike SB shoes and all these other things. It's like going, no, I didn't pay for one. Right. Right. So everything eventually started happening more in this skipping the step of money and the obtaining of the things in which I want. it. Right. But were you without money at like the start of these things? Oh, always. It's like when

I always started everything I did with no money. Right. And what does your lifestyle look like if you have no money at that point? Like just living in like a friend's place. No, the first, I lost everything at the age of my first kind of go at creating something. I think I lost everything at the age of 28 and losing everything and then, you know, kind of starting from scratch. How did you lose everything at 28? What does that, like, six months look like? So the first kind of company was oriented around kind of media, but graphic and medium to creating media for small action sport related things and pro athletes.

And we're using kind of media piece. to, I mean, it's silly now when I look back, but it's like playing cards that were electronic. Like the electronic playing cards that had, there were like CD-ROMs. And like you could, like, I did one for Brian Deegan and his pro-model shoe for when he did his first pro-model shoe with Etnys.

And you actually got one of these cards. And within one of these cards, it's like videos and photography. And it was like it only, but there was so many wonky problems. And it was like pre-technology. before technology as we know it today, right? So these CD-ROMs only worked in the trays. You know, as soon as they moved to, you know, the ingestible desk thing.

Yeah, the slot in which you fed into, they became obsolete, they became garbage. They only worked in the tray. Yeah, yeah. But there was a window in which trays were only the ones that existed, right? Right. So, and then, but that's not what, we still had some print pieces that would accompany it. Like, so, but that was kind of the neat little thing that was kind of,

nobody had done or we were doing for the first time. And that's when I, that was like my first into action sports, which is kind of what my objective was. It's like I wanted to work with all these companies that I thought were cool. And it was just that I thought they were cool. And I thought it was fun and. You didn't have dreams of money. You were just like, I just want to I want to do this. Yeah. I want to be in this world. It's like when this is what I want to be around. So for me to be in that, you know, I'm pretty good, like, competent in most any of those sports, but I'm certainly no pro, right? It's like going, I can hang with most of them.

I can hang with skiers on a motorcycle. I can hang out with motorcycle people's on skis. That's what I like to say. It's like, whatever sport you don't do, I can do great with you. But I can still hang and it's like you throw me in every car. You can throw me on a motorcycle. You could throw me in any of these things. and I'll be able to hang, I'll be competent

and probably a little bit more than, you know, competent. But that I could dance in any of these things, but I was by far no pro. And creative is kind of where my place was, but I was not a creative in the traditional sense. But none of my stuff was traditional. I didn't draw. I still don't know how to use any program on the computer.

Oh, really? None. Oh, hilarious. Yeah. So when you're making like a mock up for a jacket, like how do you design it? I mean, I might sketch a little bit. Yeah. But it's fairly sloppy and fairly rudimentary now. I mean, I was pretty good at drawing when I was younger. Um, but it's something that I did a lot. And that's what was fun when I was, you know, talking with your friend, um, who he's largely based in like sketching at the beginning stages. Mm-hmm. Katsubri. Yeah. Katsuper. And like, and how different we are. And then, but, and where we end up. There's a lot of fun similarities. It's like, but our approaches are very different. And so we had a lot of fun talking about these things.

But in that thing, it's like, well, no, it's like when I just found my way to get to the end. And that was even in the creative field. It's like, no, I just found a way to get to the end. I wanted to do graphics. So I was like going, do I want to do the graphics or do I want to create that graphic that I can then and put it. into this, let's say this sport or on this medium within this sport. And it's like one or and sometimes it's like I just want to work with that company. It did.

So my objective was to work with the company. Okay. Where it's like one. So then I just found a way to work with the company. How? Which one? Like Edneys, for example. Edneys was with like Brian Deegan and like the pro model shoes within these media pieces.

but based on promoting and bringing additional creative that brought additional value to this pro model shoe. Got it. Within like Von Zipper, it was 360 display of their eyewear on the internet. At the very beginning of internet, e-commerce still didn't exist. So you're just coming up with ideas and then executing them.

Yeah, yeah. And it was always within that creative field because it's a pretty free, you know, you can come into that and even kind of operate within it. But how do you even pitch yourself to these companies? Like if you're just like guy in a house, how do you get relationships with like these companies? Like you can't just show up and be like, hey, can I do a 3D model?

I had no problem calling anybody. I mean, I don't think I got told to fuck off that often. So just picking up the phone being like, hey, can we talk? I mean, again, it's like when was this? It was fucking early 2009. could have been. I don't remember what. Now it's all kind of blended into a, you know, a tornado.

So, but yeah, there's like, you know, your biggest obstacle then was, I guess, just finding who that creative director was for Von Zipper and then. Trying to get in front of them. Yeah, or, and then get on the phone with them or, and then having enough clout from doing one thing that could leverage into, take you into the next. So it's, and sometimes it's like. going, but in that stuff, I mean, I did, well, I still do, I think. I mean, I still do I think. I mean, I still will. It's like, I do stuff that has no financial exchange. I certainly did then.

Right. I just wanted to prove myself. So you're like, let me just work. It's like, I wanted to do this idea and it's like on, I'll just do it. It's after I fucking pull it off, pay me. Hmm. And at this point, you didn't really have much money. Oh no, it's like going, but I didn't, I didn't really need it. I mean, or I didn't think I needed it. I may have needed it more than I knew, but I never was, I never had money. So I didn't come from a place in which, you know, I was lucky enough early enough to want what I was going after as an objective. That's what I wanted.

I had never been with money. Right. And I was lucky enough to never have debt. Right. That's great. So if you can't, so if you don't have debt, then you're just at even. And then if you got a few hundred bucks a month, you can kind of like make. Oh, but I was a shifty guy too at the same time. It's like when I'd already worked in the Caribbean as a beverage manager for Weston, I'd worked a full time job from a very early age. Like, I never didn't work. So you were saving up if you could kind of. I mean, I worked all through college too. It's like when I didn't work, I worked at the Olympic. weight room I worked you know before I was 21 cleaning toilets at the main like most popular bar and selling hot dogs outside it well but full load right and then working behind the bar and in front of the bar the main bar at the university simultaneous to working in the gym simultaneous working at a sorority so I get free food where you had a sorority

oh yeah doing what house boy meaning you like fucking serve food and clean dishes or It's hilarious. It's like I did every job, but I still had a full load. And then I would leave for six months on an internship that I obtained through sending letters to a foreign country and then be off to the Micronesian Islands. Then I'd come back. But I'd only go. I'd get paid. My internships were all paid.

The internships. Yeah. So I'd come back with money. Got you. And you could save that for sure. Well, then I'd use that within school and I'd get into trouble and all these things. and I'd have to help myself out of trouble, which was always part of the scenario.

Right. But then, yeah, and then my, I mean, I didn't, I didn't, there wasn't but two weeks from my graduation until I was on a plane to the Caribbean for my first corporate job. Right. And then my corporate job lasted for a handful of months in the Caribbean, and then I was like,

I was best suited to go back to. Sure. So after I got back, it's the same difference. material planning at Kenworth factory and side hustle and then working up through a corporate thing but then hitting a ceiling quickly and being impatient and shifting out. So then you're using these leverage points in these creative worlds to like just offer value to these brands. It's much.

Just code call like cold calling everyone. Oh, I didn't get me. Fuck. Yeah. I was like going, I just wanted what I wanted. And I mean, that's the thing I look back. I'm so, I'm so happy. that, you know, there's naïveness, ambition, you know, those were all, like, important pieces of the recipe.

Yeah. Like, oh, no, I wanted it. And that's one thing that I can look back. It's like, going, no, I really wanted it. And it's like going in, and I think that's one of the most important things. It's like, just really want something. And then how do you lose it? Well, how do I lose everything?

Yeah. I didn't have no business sense. I had no business sense. I mean, I trusted everybody. Like, I trusted everybody. Contractual, I didn't bother with contracts. I didn't matter with downpayments. I was like going, I was a trusting motherfucker.

So what happened? Big project. It was the first one that I ventured outside of, let's say, the action support, you know, genuine interest. And this was a financial, this was going to be a financially beneficial transaction. doing a meaty piece for a big mortgage company and they were a dodgy group and but it was big and it would be financially prosperous and then they shifted gears and i got i i held i i held i was sitting there holding the cost of this print campaign and all this stuff that was absolutely worthless and that emptied me how much money i mean i didn't have very much so really was i mean

But I had to sell everything I owned. I didn't have anything. Like I had to trade in my, at that time I had like a cheap Cherokee. I traded that Cherokee in to a Cadillac dealership that would give me deferrence on payment for my first car payment for like, I don't know, three months. Damn. And it was like an 88 Cadillac de Bill. So I was rolling in 88 Cadillac DeVille with, it was a fucking.

That's a good trade, Loki. Yeah, I mean, I thought it was. It was a terrible. It was a, I mean, it was, but it's like when it gave me some space. Yeah. But I, no one, I didn't have any one in my life that would loan me money. So you're working with this company and you basically put up that. It was mine. This was my first company. Oh, the mortgage company. No, the creative thing was mine. Right. But you fronted the money for the print campaign. Of course. Yeah. I mean, I didn't know what I was doing in that sense. It's like one and I didn't, and I trusted everybody. And it's like one and just it was all. I mean, yeah. they should have, you know, held to what we agreed to.

But it's also like, there's a contract. Yeah, it's like going, I didn't know shit. And again, but I learned fast. Was it like 20K, 50K? It was between the two. It was upwards. Damn.

Right? And it's everything you had. Everything. Like literally all I owned fit in the trunk of the Cadillac. Yeah. And then I slept on my dad's couch at his house for a couple weeks and got a bond company, a municipal treasury and corporate bond, you know, information company to hire me as a person that could help them now take this into a branding

position. Were you devastated at 28 being like, oh, I lost everything? Like, I'm a failure. Like, what is your mental state? I feel like if I partied a lot. So I mean, I, I think I was, I was, I, I, I, I walked away from that. And the saddest part for me at that time was I was, you know, doing what I wanted in the sense I was living in Whistler doing this action. sport shit that was dreamy is like my dream and then to have to come back and kind of but i didn't lose one pace it's like when i was up at four in the morning every day i was trying to you know find somebody to hire me to do fucking anything um and i was willing to work in like the bond market and stuff i had no fucking skills in that i had no there's there's no experience at reverence towards

finance. Right. But it's like going, I had learned enough in kind of a couple of areas while doing what I attempted to do on my own. And then my background that was extensive to some extent for a pretty young guy. I mean, I was a beverage manager for a hotel, which is not relevant, but still, the work ethic and management came from that. And then I worked in material planning and export sales and international export for

Kenworth and Peterbilt semi-trucks and aftermarket. and then worked in technology and ran the New England territory. Right. So it's all over the place. Yeah, and it was all with hitting a ceiling and then getting bored or impatient and then moving. Right. And then that finally sent me on my own at 27. So I wasn't like with like I think I had $10,000 to my, like what I was worth. Like so fucking to me it was worth something.

But it was like when look back, it's like going, no, I had big balls and small brain. a small brain night. I thought the world was, you know, I could do anything. Yeah. I mean, and I didn't lose that and I still haven't lost that to some extent. So even when I think anything's possible. Even when you did lose everything, you weren't shaken. I don't remember.

It's like on I was, I had, I mean, I was willing to do whatever I needed to do to make it. Yeah. So, and that make it was, of course, adjusted. Like when you don't have anything to make it is to, have some level of security, but I never was not dreaming of all these big, grandioso things that I thought were possible.

And they were always changing. So I was like on, and I was most alive chasing something. Yeah. So I didn't. As long as you had a goal, you had a rabbit to go for. It made everything else feel better.

Yeah. And I think, I think that there's some power in being young, right? And there's some power in having, you know, limited responsibilities. I didn't fucking have any real estate that was holding me. You know, it's like going, I didn't have credit card debt that was following me around. I didn't even have a credit card, right?

Like, I didn't grow up with it being something that I was taught that was even acceptable, right? It's like to have something that you couldn't pay for was. Yeah, if you just don't have the money, you don't get it. this idea of putting things on credit and then I'll pay you back later. Or paying somebody else interest. Yeah, just to get money. I mean, I pronounced my, I nod to my parents. It's like, no, it's like when that, if it was intentional or not, it's like that was

instowed at a very young age. Yeah. No, and I was willing to work. I fucking, and I was willing to do things that were questionably. You know, it's like, oh, I, I, we'll leave that alone. But it's like when I didn't, it's like going, no, I would do things. things that were, yeah, I was going to survive, right? It's like when it's being put in a position where, you know, you're feeling as if, you know, and our threshold for that too,

like what is surviving, right? I'm sure, you know, mine's different and it's, yeah. People have different standards for what their level of survival is, which is good. But yeah, if you're not meeting that threshold for what survival is for you, then... I think it's good to get to the awareness stage where you know that it's like going, no, I'm in a stage where it's like going, I will fight. Yeah. And it's like going, and I love all of the some of the hot things that you hear most motivational motherfuckers on Instagram say, but it's like going,

no, I mean, I'm in a fight. I almost seek the feeling in which you get from being in a battle in this seek to conquest or you know this this thing where you're conquesting yeah right so it's like going and there's something to that yeah the feeling of being on a path

on a conquest is the best where you're just moving and you're just like I have a goal and I'm going to achieve it no matter what and you're just head down and throughout the deviations and the failures along the way you're just so focused on getting the thing I remember those points and like it's really intoxicating it's better than any drug

is the feeling of suit of the achievement. And it can be material, but I think the most beneficial ones in my life have always been like bigger than that. It's always been like a more grand goal where like, I don't know, it might be like some very broad career aspiration. And sometimes I'll arrive without even really knowing it. And I'll be like, oh, damn.

I didn't even realize that I achieved the goal because I was like focused on like the next goal after that without even thinking about the goal. And that's the best feeling. Yeah, I mean, and that's, I think that's common, right? It's like when you can have that dream and that dream that's quite grand at one stage in your life. And then as you're fighting and doing whatever is necessary in that conquest of that dream, it's like going, that dream's alive. So it's evolving, right? And that dream now with it, you're not even being conscious of it now has became much grander.

Yeah. Right? And then by the time you've now, you've arrived at what was your dream X time ago. New dream. Yeah, that dreams now. And that's the best. I mean, if that, that's the place in which I'm most happy. Yeah, of course.

I think most people are. I always think about this with the Victor Frankel, Mansearch for Meeting. I always bring up this book. I love it. And he just writes about a moment. Are you familiar with the book? No. This is this guy.

There's like two books I've read in my entire life. Yeah, that's a good point. Fully dyslexic. You can't read. He basically was a psychologist that lived through the Holocaust. And he's recounting his time in one of the camps in just like the most deplorable, you know, vicious position another human can put you in. Like, it's just an awful situation, obviously.

But as a psychologist, he's analyzing himself and is analyzing the people around him. And he has this perspective that is just like once in a generation. Fortunately. You know what I mean? So when would this been? This is like 19, late 30s, early 1940s that he's writing this. And when he went into that, he was already an adult, right? Yeah.

And he was a full psychologist in Poland or Poland or Germany. I'm not exactly sure. And as a Jew, he was a Jewish psychologist. He was put into one of the concentration camps. And he just writes about his time. And there's just so many. And he was writing this while he was experiencing it? Or do he write it post?

I think he was writing after. But I think he was writing after. but I think he had some writings or like, I think he was able to journal parts of it while he was actually in. I can't recount exactly. But the thing that always sticks with me is like the idea of purposeless suffering, that the only true suffering is suffering that lacks a purpose. That if you have a purpose, it's kind of suffering.

It's sort of like pain. But you can justify the pain because you know it's for some type of greater good. But once your hope is gone and once the purpose of your self, suffering is gone, then it's true suffering. And he thinks about this, you know, in relation to seeing his family again once he gets out of the camp. And he goes, I have to believe that there is an end to this. And I have to believe that there is, my family will be there when I get out. And that I'll reconnect with my children. I'll reconnect to my parents and that my life will be whole again. And I need that hope because without it, all of this suffering and pain is for not. And once you lose

the hope, once you go, there's nothing out there for me. This is. this is never going to end, I'm going to die in here, and this is going to be the rest of my life, you'll die tomorrow. Because now your suffering is purposelessness. Your suffering is purposeless. And I always think about that and it's connected to what you're saying now. Like having the dream, you can justify the means, you know, to that end. And it's really seductive.

But as soon as you get to a point where you're dreamless and you don't have any other aspiration, if you don't have any other like, you know, oh, I'm going to start a clothing company like you did. or I'm going to start this brand or I'm going to start this, you know, pursuit for freedom. Whatever that pursuit is, all the pain you endure in your everyday life is just, it's, you feel it so much more. And I really empathize with people that are hopeless. That is the worst thing you can take from someone is their hope. I would, you know, take my life to or take my anything, take my home, like my house, my money,

take anything. Just can't, you can't take hope from people. And as long as you have that dream, you can justify anything in the meantime. Yeah, I can't, I can't understand not dreaming, I guess. And that's the part that, like, I get lost when someone is incapable or unable to or maybe have lost it. And maybe they never had it. I don't know. But it's like going, but that dreaming to me, of course, like you said, it allows you to endure all these things.

but your dreams are guided or at least mine have been or redirected or as I'm dreaming or on the conquest for X right and then I hit an obstacle like losing everything yeah right and that obstacle and that kind of realignment ends up being my favorite thing because it's now adjusted my dream, like that I couldn't have adjusted on my own. Right. You could never have known to adjust it unless the circumstances force you to. I still would have been on that path with conviction and fucking everything I've got, but I needed something drastic to say, fuck you. Um, you know, and it was a situational thing which forced me that. And it was one of those things where, yeah, it sucked at the moment. But the fact that I was.

still dreaming allowed me to now actually my dream got larger. Yeah. And was redirected. And my conviction was shaken. Yeah. Right. Of course. But it was only shaken for the better. And I can look at those kind of forks or those kind of dysfunctional, impactful moments of transition in my life. And I've got clear ones. Like they're not fucking. It's like very stark. Oh yeah. They're, They're not round corners. Yeah. Like it's a skirt. It's like a.

Motherfucker, that one's not happening. Yeah. And you are in an explosion. It's a crash. Yeah. And I've been able to now be more, I can, I can even foresee the crash. That's like, it's like, because I've had a handful of it. It's happened so many times.

You're like, oh, I can see you when it's kind of coming. Yeah. And they become less, I mean, they become impactful, but you're able to conscious and, you're able to, you're conscious as they're approaching or conscious as they're happening. Right. And then you're responding to them, you know, with all the experiences that you hopefully grabbed from the earlier crashes. That's what I love about this idea.

I was talking to my buddy, John Levy, and he talked to me about anti-fragility. Have you ever heard this idea? It's like human beings are anti-fragile. And that, I forget, there's some writer that wrote about this stuff. So what is anti-fragile mean? Literally, like, you think of like a glass or a plate that is fragile. and that as you drop it or something hard happens to it, it breaks. Okay.

And it's irreparable. Humans are the exact opposite. That as bad things happen, that breaking actually makes us stronger. And that is the bad things and like those pivots in your story and in your line that you even just said it. They're like, yeah, they get easier. They're easier to cope with. They're easier to see. And if though, even the later pivots in your story might have been worse than the earlier ones.

but just by the fact that you had multiple earlier ones, it was easier to deal with the bigger, more painful ones later because of that anti-fragility. So anytime people are averse to failure, averse to like pain, the answer is always like embrace it. Rush into it if you can. Because it's going to make you...

Speed the fuck up. It's going to make you so much better off. Well, and that's that's, I mean, that's one of the fun bike analogies I have as you get like speed wobbles. Oh, it's like on, no, it's like on those moments where, you know, speed is actually a friend. Yes. Right?

And you leaning forward. And it's that lean-in method. It's like going, and I've, you know, some of that, my, the way in which I played sports or the way in which I'd even ski, it's, there's a, it's, it has an aggressiveness to it. And even when I ride a motorcycle, it's aggressive. I ride a bike aggressively. and that aggressiveness and that lean forward

and when you start to see those moments coming and instead of going to your heels you're going to your toes but it is counterintuitive and it's scary when you get the speedwobbles you want to just like hit the brake stomped on the rear brake oh yeah I mean stop on your brake on a bike in which only has a rear drum brake

yeah I can't wait to see it yeah 30s panhead is not going to be a great Yeah, I mean, I have to be a, I mean, yeah, actually, I don't want to see anyone else do it either, but it's like, yeah. But it's that lean in, right? It's like in the, anytime that adversity's coming to you, if you're still conscious of what's happening and you're present. And then, you know, as you speed in, your mind's able to be calm and actually slow. It's in that, you know, all these contradicting things. Yeah. Right? It's like. The same is true in life for sure. Yeah, and that's like, well, and that's the chaos. It's like when sometimes my most peaceful place is this calmness among absolute chaos. And it's almost, I mean, I used to do it more than I do now. And sometimes I still catch myself doing it. Sometimes I do it and I actually gain from it.

But it's like, no, I inject chaos. Because that's where you find the piece. Well, and it's like one, and it's like going, I make the tornado. Yeah. And then I exist in the tornado. And then me calming the tornado is kind of all this kind of ritualistic fucking creative process sometime in which I go. And it's like going, I need to make chaos. Yeah. And then amongst the chaos as things calm as I'm grabbing these things as they're floating and I'm doing the speedwork. And it's like,

and I trained. And that's the thing. It's like, yeah, I think there's so much calmness like after last night. And yeah, I wake up at four in the morning. I go to bed fairly early. I don't go out drinking. Yeah, that is me. Right? It's like when, and even going out with you guys, we left the restaurant at one. Yeah. And then for me to get to where I'm at in New York,

it's like going, yeah, it's another half an hour or whatever. I get back. No, I don't wind down. It still takes me an hour. That's just my process. Yeah. So I'm not in bed until 2. 2.30 up before.

Yeah. But it's like going, but I had to go to the gym because I actually found a calmness leaving the gym this morning. I woke up and I was not rested. I was more restful after I lifted weights. Yeah, I'm the same exact way. So I had to. If I don't work out for like two or three days, I'll feel really anxious.

And like my brain will just be going. Like I'll just feel bad. And then my wife will be like, did you work out? And I'm like, oh, that is the thing that actually got me in working out is once I stopped looking at working out is like a physique body driven vanity. It's fucking here. It's like it's fucking in your head. Well, actually, there were just, there's research.

I think it was like the, like the CDC or like some like that's a place. Yeah. Some governing like. Just blind trust. But some governing like health body basically in the U.S. or some researches. I don't know. Basically like they don't believe anything Mark's saying right now. It's like in contradiction to that.

You're actually going to, you're going to hear your words because they actually came out for the first time basically saying that psychologists and therapists need to, I guess psychologists are the only people that can prescribe. but they're like the first prescription for depression and anxiety should be working out and fitness. And that, and this is what people have been saying for years is that as people are coming in with anxiety and depression being like, and they're just getting put on like LexaPro or like antidepressants or S or S. something is slowing down, you know, slowing them down.

Yeah, getting on pills and shit. Instead of being like, hey, just you should work out. And it sounds like a really reductive thing to tell someone that's in pain. Like, hey, just go work out. But it truly has impacted my life so much. And not even being like, oh, I'm going to go lift. every single day, just like moving your body is just like ingrained in our, in our biology. And now researchers are finally suggesting like, oh, that should be the go-to for depression

and anxiety. Well, yeah. And some people might need further. Even for a busy brain, right? Yeah. Which is the opposite of those things. It's like when you have a busy brain, it's like when you can find a certain level of calmness and like a balancing of your probably chemicals, you know, in a healthier.

and again, yeah, there's a benefit physically. Yeah. But there's just as much a benefit in it mentally. Yeah, and I think the same with food. There's no question. And that's where I always, like, no, it's even what you consume intellectually. Like, it's like when if you watch certain things, it will make you feel worse. Scrolling on Instagram every day makes me feel worse.

Well, it's no different than it's like when you're intellectually consuming McDonald's, right? So it's like going, and I don't eat McDonald's because I feel like shit. The last time I had McDonald's was like, oddly enough, in like Mexico 20 years ago or something. Yeah. Right. So it's like, but it's like going, if our physical activities are equivalent to eating McDonald's, meaning it's just garbage, we play video games. Our athletics are through video games. Yeah.

You're literally eating McDonald's. Yeah. And then you're physically or consuming. Right. An equivalent to McDonald's, if not literally McDonald's. Exactly. And then you're reading and. consuming intellectually McDonald's.

You're fucked, right? But each one of those things, so let's say if you only consume healthy food, but your physical activity and your physical interaction is garbage. It's like, yeah, you've got one piece that's fairly good. These other things are just as equally important. And really you need all three. Yeah. And that's what I always tell people.

Like, anytime people are like, dude, I'm like dealing with whatever, whatever, I'm like, and sure, some people need more. I don't doubt that. There are some people that if you have clinical chronic depression, like, lifting a weights isn't going to do it for you? I'm not going to advise you on anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go talk to your doctor. That's not for me. Don't, I mean, don't take anything. I say something that's like, going, I'm giving you a recommendation saying, I think something will be the right thing for you. But generally, I think as a blanket statement, the first place to start is like, what are those three

aspects of your diet? Like, are you moving your body? Are you filling it up with good things? And are you reading and listening to good things? No question. And I think it's like going, if you're doing anything that's chemical without the, you're doing it. three things kind of addressed, I would question the thoughtfulness of you taking any chemical fixes. Yeah. Right? Because now you're prescribed or recreational.

Yeah. Whatever your fucking fancy is. It's like going, I don't want to be in any business business. Just stay out of my fucking way in regards to you consume what you want. Yeah. But at the same time, it's like going, I don't think you're best suited if you're objective. is to be happy. Were you always this way, though?

I mean, for me to play athletics in like the way in which I was, again, going after to play athletics, it's like going, no, I had to. Yeah, you didn't have a choice. Your body was like, I mean, I was, I had to eat a certain way so I could achieve the certain thing in which I was going after. So you always ate pretty well. Yeah, and I ate as much as I could. And I was very conscious of, you know, what.

to healthy diet. Minus the alcohol. Yeah. I mean, that was also what enabled me to consume and, you know, partying the way in which I did when I was younger is because I was, you know, all these other working parts were operating at a pretty high level. Like my diet and physical activities were always at a pretty high level. And my interest intellectually, that's like when, it's like one, no, I'm not claiming

to be an intellect, but I was always so interested in. in people that were intellectual, right? I liked being around people that I thought were interesting and I found people intelligent that had wildly cool experiences as interesting. So as much as I could be around those people that I found interesting, I did, right? And that fulfilled a lot of that intellectual curiosity

and intellectual diet or intellectual things I needed. like one no I was very fortunate I was around I was always getting all three yeah yeah for sure and I was those things it's like when I adopted that and had the awareness of the diet as a very young age right and it's like one and I felt the calmness of my mind and my ability to be you know able to play in all the things I was playing in by being extremely physically active yeah And it was incorporated into work and all these other things. So it was all like this inner working, you know, thing where one thing was never kind of neglected or one thing wasn't all part of the others.

And I mean, and it's still like the same thing. It's like when I travel to wherever, it's like going, no, it's like on last night. It's like when I eat with other people, I eat whatever reading. Yeah. It's like when it is. It's like I don't know problems. Yeah, you like to connect. Yeah, I'm the same way.

But it's like, but when I'm on my own, it's like, no, it's fucking healthy. Yeah, yeah, I'm the same way. I'm the same way. 100%. But yeah, if we're all hanging, like, I'm not going to be the guy that's like, I can't. It's like, no, and it was fun to be able to have the, you know, the freedom to do so. It's like one, no, it's like when, yeah, it's fucking fun. Yeah.

And you allow yourself that because you are so strict and regimented the rest of the time. But I want to. It's like when I want to eat healthy. Yeah. It's like when, I mean, where I stay at like in New York, it's like, no, I first go to a healthy grocery store when I first land. Oh, really? And I stocked my fridge.

At the hotel. Well, I'm staying in an apartment. It's like same difference. It's like going, no, I have my breakfasts and all these things. It's like going. And I have been fortunate when I'm in New York as I've pre-pandemic. And the few times I was in New York during that time before, you know, I didn't come here for two years or three years. I was in that same place.

So I've got a level of familiarity. And when I go to Tokyo, like, no, I stay in the same place. Right. So it's like when I land in Tokyo. And I mean, they even call it my home. It's like your home. Yeah. Yeah, you love Japan.

I love it. Yeah. And it's, how old are you the first went to Japan? I didn't go until I was old. Oh, really? Yeah. The first time I went to Japan was, oh, we were talking about it because I was with a guy from one of my bootmaker friends

were talking and he's like going, I met him seven or eight years ago, seven years ago. Was my first time in Japan. Wow. And when did you start Black Bear? Maybe I went to Japan eight years ago. Within the first year of Japan, going after the resurrection

and kind of the adventure of Black Bear brand, I was in Japan because Hail Mary of Japanese Magazine, did a feature on me within my first year. Gosh, so you started Black Bear like nine years ago. Yeah, I think it's eight years ago right now. Oh, wow. So it would be, it was in the springtime. So it was this end of winter, March.

Right. What did you do from losing everything at 28 to then starting Black Bear? So financial stuff was kind of my escape or kind of what? was able to help me pull out. And that was in the bond market. So it was in fixed income. And it was they had, it was an informational network for that little world.

And again, this is still largely pre-internet to what we know it today. And what I did is I came in and brought in a bunch of the creative aspect of redesigning the presentation of this. And it was then I started to work with standard pores. and fidelity and bring in advertising. So I was doing some of that fuckery. And then so that I,

like that work? No, I was just playing chess, right? It's like I was just putting pieces together. It's not very creative, I guess. I mean, I was every, like that was the fun part for me. So it's like going eventually within a year, because I kind of did all the formatting and redesigning

and I had a bunch of these different interworking things that were financially beneficial to him. And I then owned. part of the advertising, which was part of the deal that because I developed it. And then the whole look and feel of it was mine. And, you know, I'd be on the phone with a Von Zipper. Next phone call I'd be on with Standard and Pores. Right.

And then I'd have somebody painting graffiti in my office. Right. Because I was going to do a graffiti art piece. And then I was getting a Nike SB shoes sent to me because it's all going to launch. Yeah. I was like, that's the thing. It's like when I'm in a tornado and that's where I was like, and I'm still like kind of happy in that chaotic creative space. Right.

Similar to the space in which we went to yesterday. Yeah. It's like going, but mine was just one huge room with skateboards and like any sport direction or if it was skateboarders or skis or whatever it was that I could do a project with and I'd end up negotiating within my project piece like all the product shit that I thought was fun and that I liked. And then how do you pivot from that for 10 years to then just quitting everything and then just going all in on blackboard? Which one of them had kind of its phases too. So it had its life cycle. Like so 360 display and some of the photography stuff. And again, I'm not a photographer. But that was kind of one of the tricks that I came up with. And then that led into graphics with like a mastercraft. And to prove what this idea was, I ended up putting it into the market to prove it. And then I ended up owning it. And then I ended up owning it. And then I ended up. up operating that while doing all these other things and doing some bond stuff. And you're doing all these variety of things. And it's like one, but that also had its life cycle.

And I was at a stage at least with some of the previous things where I was watching even products or ideas live their life. And foreseeing and seeing them ending, I could kind of see it because I was, I mean, I would have created that. I've been, let's say the first ones that had done it and then done it. it in a commerce and put it into the market. So then I'm kind of shifting out. And I always would like, I didn't like this stuff.

I mean, I found it exciting because I was proving to somebody that this could be cool and that this could work and then showing them how it could work. Right. But then as soon as that would be like, oh, no, I wasn't interested. I didn't like it. Yeah. It's like on. I didn't do it out of.

And it was. was all, I'd always, I mean, fashion had always been part of it. I mean, I would pitch stuff and send stuff to different companies all the time of things that I thought were great. Right. So even though you're doing like somewhat more corporate financial work. And that became lower and lower. And that's the catch. So then you get good enough at something where it becomes, you know, at one point it might have been 30% of my, of what consumed my time. And and it would get down to five. Wow.

But it would make more money. Right. Or it would make enough money where it, but then it's like going, but money wasn't really the driver. And I'd also max it out, meaning I bled that rock to what that rock, you know, what that rock could give me. Yeah. Not only financially, but also what it could, what I could do with it. And then I would let that rock exist and it's blood outstage until I would kick it off. Yeah.

And that's what I would do with most. things, right? And some of it would be like that emotional thing that I'm chasing and I'm probably chasing to this day. Right. It's like going, no, I want to feel. I want to be excited. I want to be interested. And it's like going and when, and some of these things may have had the conquest and the proving that it could be done that filled that. But none of it for what it was is what I was chasing. What it was is what I wanted. Right. It was more I wanted to prove to you and show you that it could work and that it could be cool on a pursuit to freedom yeah and then the part of it's like going and again it's like going but i was still you know not part of

any of these categories you know it's like going it's like on yeah i worked in the action support but i wasn't actually i mean i wasn't considered like it's like going yeah i could call up one of these companies i could of course speak with anybody that i wanted to speak with it's like one I could get like some project but then they would think of me which was always the fresh thing they would think you'd do like product photography right and they wouldn't be able to process that I wasn't even a photographer so they just assumed I was a photographer right like company like MasterCraft just thought I was a graphic artist fake it to you make it type of well no no it I just thought I was a graphic artist because I did all their graphics yeah right I guess you

were just making it until you make it it's not it's like I was but it's like on and I was then I would say well it's really it's like and then I'd create an entire piece that could now enter them into the apparel business. Right? Because that's really what I could do. I mean, it's like going, what do you want to do? Let me go do it for you or with you. Right. Whatever you want. If it's in the creative direction, it's like, I can do it. I mean, that's in essence, at least what my thought process. Which is a great thought process. Just like, whatever challenge you got, whatever problem you have, I can solve it. Yeah, let's go, let's go do it and let's do it. Let's go do something fucking cool. Yeah. And so how do you pivot

off of that and be like, okay, now it's time to start black bearers. But I already, and that's the thing. I was doing pieces and parts. Always, you know, like other people though. Yeah, it was always like going, this person needs a hat or I do, let's say an athlete wants to start a T-shirt brand. I would help put that into motion. And then, you know, and also I would watch it as it couldn't be executed.

So some of those things were happening, right? And because there's really no background, my background isn't a background of a creative director for a clothing company or a fashion designer. It's just not. I mean, and I'm certainly not going to fabricate that today, right? I'm not going to be able to start making that resume that will be assumed by somebody else that makes you this. It's a fucking tornado.

It's a complicated background. So it's like going, and I wanted for a while to be understood, right? And that fucking stage probably happened very short, really, because I realized that no one did in regards to their use to seeing this. I'm not that. So if I want it or I want to do that, it's like I got to then turn back to how I have to do it, which is let's see how I can get that, not. like if I want to do a clothing brand so I want to be a creative director for a clothing brand

I want to create and design clothing it's like I going I just have to go figure out how I can do that not prove to somebody else that I can do it and get them to hire me never fucking work right but I wanted to for a while so there was a stage between those things and that but it was a window that passed quickly because I was lucky to be aware that all the things that have happened in the past happened, you know, that same way. I may have wanted it that way, but I was able to quickly see that, you know, to be a graphic artist. It's like, do am I going to go now go to graphic art school and get trained in Photoshop and illustrator and then go through this? I looked at it and I even went through and got like able to be accepted to the Art Institute and like,

pick whatever classes I want because I had accomplished a number of things where, yeah, I'd go speak to the dean and they said, yeah, pick what class you want. We'll just let you skip all the other stuff. And you can take whatever class you want if you want to learn this stuff. Wow. And you're not even a great student though. No, I just went in there and I was like going, no, then I start, you know, looking at what they're teaching. And I'm like going, fuck, dude, I've already way past where any of these, where any of these things that are being taught. Just through experience.

Yeah. because you've been doing it. It's like, well, no, I was doing their boss's boss stuff already, right? And it's like,

and then I came to that realization again. It's like, no, I don't really want to. I mean, I don't want to operate Photoshop. It's like, hand me an intern. I can get them to do it.

Yeah. Hand me somebody that's specializing in, you know, this tool. There's like the Steve Jobs thing. Like people always, like,

use that as a knock against Steve Jobs where they're like, oh, he didn't even really, you know, he wasn't designing. He doesn't know how to use design software.

It's like, he's a visionary. He was just a brilliant visionary and he had engineers that could program the things that he needed but he just knew exactly how they should be. And so he was utilizing people that were way better at him, way better than him at programming in order to create, you know, this beautiful software, this beautiful product because he knew the vision and they knew how to do it. Well, also it's like most of these people, because it requires it, spend a lifetime and amount of dedication to become good at this. Right? And it's like going, and I commend that.

But it's like going, if I, I'm not even saying if I did dedicate all my energy towards learning how to do that well, that I'd even become as good as somebody. I'm not saying that. Right. But it's like going, but ultimately what I want to do is what I'm doing. I just want to create that. Yeah. Right.

But I want to create that because that's one piece of this bigger thing. So then it's like going, so why do I want to learn about that? That's not even what you want to do. It's like going, I want that. to help me make that, sure. And I want that to help me make that. But if you can skip learning this part and just get someone to do it. And then you see it's like when it's unlikely.

Right. That by me learning that. Right. Not only is it longer. It's it makes the likelihood of making the thing you actually want. Way unlike diminished. Way less likely. Right.

And then even saying, well, it's like one. So now it's like one being. It's like going. Yeah. So it's, but then having, I still would have to remind myself of that. through numerous stages, right? That's like going, not fucking,

it's like, it's still habit. Right. Or something that you know that this is how others have done it. So you do in some way turn to a proven path. But then I quickly get slapped by and, or get aware through whatever that it's like going,

that it's not going to work for you, motherfucker. Right? So it's like going, and then you can kind of, of even catch before you need that, right? And you're like going, okay. So then the Black Bear brand thing, a couple things were on their horizon of passing, in my opinion, right? And so I was shifting those out, kicking them. And then I was like going, okay. And I started to venture in and get a little bit of

experience and knowledge and dead and dormant marks. And I had the fashion stuff was something that had been forever with me of interest, but then also something that I had dreamt of being a part of. And originally with Black Bear brand, the existence of the dormant mark, my experience with a variety of these old companies had a certain level of experience in trademark law, copyright law, and all these other things. Because when you're working in a graphic capacity that I was, it's like going, yeah, It was part of the game in regards to doing the level of artwork for companies like Mastercraft involving in certain creative projects with Red Bulls and Monster.

But then the MasterCraft thing, actually, you know, there was an ownership of artwork that was a big part of that business and that graphic-related service. So that at least exposed me to it, right? And then as soon as that was found, because originally I just wanted to pitch to this, to a person that did own the mark to then become and create this thing that was my concept and idea with that mark in a reverence of this. And after finding it, the stage it was at, I was like, okay. And then this became a quicker, you know, quicker acknowledgement of what I was looking at and how I needed to do it. I was like, fuck, I already know this fucking scenario. I already, this story has been written numerous times in the past.

It's like, okay, I'm just going to make it. I'm just going to get it. It's like going. And then despite people saying how I couldn't get it or despite the difficulty of getting it or despite the process in which it takes an experience that's required to develop a clothing brand and then move into cut and sew and then move into not only manufacturing but distribution. And this is the crazy thing is that at this point now you make everything. You make jackets, boots, socks, working on underwear, pants.

Like, everything that you wear is effectively designed and created by you. Yeah. Which is so fun. Insane to think that you went from, like, what was the first product you were making? Well, I mean, it's, and that's, it was T-shirts. I mean, which is something that, you know, I think probably most people. Yeah, that's like the easiest entry point. Yeah, and it's something that you can even, yeah, by far the easiest.

Yeah. I mean, you can brand. you know, an item in which you are making nothing, you're making no part of it, right? So that's, it's the easiest thing. And that's been done so many times prior to that in my other projects, right? So that was easy to kind of start that. That wasn't really where I was, like, I didn't stay in that stage for but a second. Right.

You immediately, you wanted to go something bigger. Yeah. And then I had to learn through collaborations. I mean, that's like my first pant, first cut and sew item was through collaboration. collaborations with Williams and Dickies. You know, that was my first kind of push into that. And it was simultaneously into footwear and simultaneously into jackets. So all of everything was kind of happening all at once.

Always. But that's the story of everything in the past too, right? It's like going, yeah, it's just, let's just do all the things. Create the tornado. And it's not even the, it's not a pre-planned like this is what I'm going to do. It's just how your brain works. Yeah, it's like going, you're just doing all these things at once.

Yeah, of course. And after you've done it enough times, you realize that there are, all going to end up having their own timeline, right? They're going to evolve at their own pace anyhow. And this is what I like about your story also is like, how old were you when you started BlackBarre? You're probably late 30s? No, I guess that does age the brand, right? So I was 31. Okay. No, I wasn't. Fuck, Jesus Christ. Now I was actually, I was 40. Which is awesome. Yeah, I was 40. I think that's amazing. Because I think there's so many people, like, I feel this all the time.

I'm 26. And I'm looking at, like, the things that I'm doing. And I'm like, ugh, I'm already over the hill. I'm already starting too late. I'm already behind the gun. You know what I mean? Like, I get the anxiety of, like, I know, I will look up on Google like, oh, where was this comedian when they were 26? What were they doing?

Where was this podcast where they were 26? What were they doing? And I try to compare myself to be like, am I on track? Am I losing time? Am I wasting time? One favor that I'm going to give you right now. It's like, stop comparing your stuff at all. I mean if you can do anything stop

fucking stop no I mean but you can it's like going to say it's tough as fucking cop out like a motherfucker come on it's like going to just stop it provides you no value you will gain nothing from I mean it is instinctual

we all do it you will have to consciously work to not but you will be better off is it helpful to keep up to see what the fuck do you mean that I mean think about it's like going do I need, it's like going, then you need to kind of get your head straight, right? Because they're not driving your ambition, right?

This arbitrary person or friend, for that matter. But then if they're a friend, it's like going, you have some inkling if you're, when you start to get, when you think more deeply about all the things that brought them to what their stage was in which you're now admiring and now comparing yourself to. and their entire story is a compound of sequences and adventures and shortfalls and things that ended up working well, that those, every one of those sequence of things are what put them in the stage in which they're at today. So their path, their speed or lack thereof will never be a good comparison to yours.

Because your, yeah, your story is so only yours. It's kind of like watching two movies and like pausing them both at one hour and being like, let's compare the movies. And that's something that almost all those do have like, like there's a structure to them. And that's even like an example where they would be, it wouldn't be possible, right? Right. And they're like, how are you going to compare two movies at one hour? Like you can compare characters.

You can compare other things. But like just to compare it based off time, seem stupid. And they're all running off structure. Like there's format to that bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a formula.

So it's like when your life has none. Yeah. I mean, except if you look at both of you and maybe you both went to university, I mean, that might be one thing, but our path to university and our experience at university and it's like it's fucking different. You can get the same university. But they're still fucking different. Yeah.

Just the biology that make up the family, the nurture, everything is different. Oh, fuck. But do you think it's helpful? Like, for example, if you're running a marathon, like if you want to beat your marathon time, It's helpful to have people running alongside you for short stretches that are keeping your pace and making sure that you're keeping up. Yeah, but that's still not a comparison thing, right? It's like when that's, it's like going, and I would say, it's like when I would want to be around people that are better than me. Mm-hmm.

Right? I would run around. It's like one, and they might be better at me something in something completely different. But I, you know, if I was, it's like when I don't want to have somebody that I'm competing with. I would want somebody that's fucking better. They're just better, right? And there might be a time in which I can, I surpass them,

but my story will be so different and what I'm doing will be so different if I'm not comparing myself to them in that process. But I'd rather be chasing somebody that's just excellent in comparison to me not being excellent. And again, it's like going,

but we can, I mean, all we have to do is look and we're going to find people that at anything that we're doing that are excellent in comparison to us not being excellent. Right. Right. Yeah, I guess you can always find that. And if you continue to seek it. I think at least for me, it's like when it should be part of, it's like being around people

that their story is interesting to us, like as individuals, when we're sitting across from somebody and their story is interesting. It's because they've experienced something we haven't. Fair. True. Right? So that drives us, motivates us, exposes us, now opens us up to a certain level of interest in these variety of things, right? That same thing comes from that person that is that comic that's of reverence that you revere. But again, it's like when isn't comedy very individual? Yes. Right? It's you. I mean, yeah, it's inherently extremely individual. That's what I mean. So it's like going, and that's why it's even sillier to compare yourself. Because you don't want to ever lose the fact that your comedy is you. Right.

And their comedy is them. How do I do that better? Because it is easy to. You just got to fucking, you got to fucking be, like, you, like, no one's, like, we're adult, like, to be reprimended by anyone other than ourselves. is kind of ridiculous. Like, no one reprimends me. They don't.

I mean, they haven't for a long time. Right? So I haven't been reprimended. There's nobody in my life that can reprimend me. So the only person that can keep me in check, honestly, is me. Right. And the only one that can probably keep myself in check because of who I am, right? It's like I would push back to the in check.

from someone else. Right. But same with that. It's like going, yeah, there's no one but you, but you being conscious of the fact that it's like going, but I think you're pretty fortunate. I mean, you're around some people that are not only good at comedy and are good comics, but it's their application and kind of way in which they're playing the comic game. For sure.

I mean, for the space, I don't think there's a better group of people to be around. I mean, I don't know that world. I mean, I get to, I guess, step. I'm telling you objectively. Yeah, and I get to sit in and just like, you know, be a person that's not in it. And like, really be happy to observe it and to be around it. Yeah. But even that, I sometimes get insecure where I'm like, damn, I'm around some of the best guys in the game.

That's putting more pressure on me where I'm like, all right, well, now I have to rise up. I got to keep up with them. I got to keep competing. But that's your poll. It's not that comparison. It's like going to be pulled. But even look at them. And it's like going, seeing how they uniquely excel.

Because each one of those people are, and it's neat. I mean, I'm an overthinker. That's all I fucking do. I'm a heavy fucking thinker. Right. So it's like when I look at, you know, the kid super show, right? Yeah. So watching that.

And you're watching, it's all very short, very fast, right? And even as you describe it, the preparation of it, you know, it wasn't even kind of part of the jam. Like the preparation may have happened literally. backstage. Just neat. Yeah, right? But then you're watching each one of these people, wildly unique, each one of them, wildly unique, right?

And you're watching each one of them, and it's like going, knowing that their uniqueness and individualness while they're all together in sequence, short, like minute, how fucking short was? Yeah, each person had like, three to five. Yeah. And some people were much shorter than others.

Yeah. I mean, Andrew, I had that awesome bit that's priceless now that I know the entire storyline behind it. But so each one of them wildly different. And how silly is it to compare yourself to any one of them individually? Right? Because each one of them is good because of them being individuals.

Like Theo. Like so unique. Yeah. Right? And the reason he's so connectable is because he's unique. Right? And you put Andrew Scholes in him one after another. How wildly different, right?

And for you to compare yourself to either of them is just silly. Because even watching you, because I've seen you live, I saw you in Seattle, right? Wildly unique. You are not the same as Andrew. And you're not the same as any one of the other comics that, you know, did that. night. Mm-hmm. Yeah,

don't compare yourself, dude. Whatever you. Call me up and say, Josh, comparing myself. I'll fucking smack you around. I need it. I'll mentally smack you around. I'll talk you off the ledge.

Because I do, yeah, I fall into that a lot. But everybody is. That's the thing. It's like one, but, but it's a constant practice to get out of it. Oh, I mean,

it's like one, there's, I don't think that will ever just simply stop. Yeah. But you can pull yourself away from it and shut it down. And the more you do it, and the more, the quicker you acknowledge that it's happening.

It's like going, because you're just not going to gain anything from it. It's not helping you. Yeah. Just surround yourself with fucking great people that are thinking differently and doing things. Yeah. And know that your thoughts being different than them, but feeding off them and being,

allowing to gain something from the wild experiences that not only they've experienced up to that one, but you guys are a group in many ways. You get to watch them and see what they're experiencing and return on their experiences and while simultaneously having your experiences. And I'm sure they're feeding off you. You know, so it's... It's completely mutual. And just it's by osmosis,

just by proximity. You're absorbing a different way to think about things and a different way to perceive the world. And it's making the product that you're creating better just by proximity. Yeah, and you guys are in a wildly creative space and you get to surround yourself and it's like, again, last night,

that creative sense, space itself, but also the creative people that were, you know, eating dinner with us. We spent, you know, a few hours up to dinner with. It's like one. The more you spend and now that your circle is basically, you know, this patchwork of creative people wildly different, like wildly different, even field. Right? And you had kids super.

And again, yeah, like the comedy piece. it's neat that he did it first because he will be the first one. People will do it again. I think people already have. Right? Yeah. So, but in the way in which he did it

and the story that leads up to how he did it and how he's connected with each one of these comics, you know, it would be neat for more people to hear that. Yeah. Is the way I look at it. So, and that's the part that it's like when, yeah, it's neater than people know. Yeah.

That's the part that, yeah, you guys will have your time in which you will tell that story, right? But I felt lucky because even coming to New York, it's like when, no, it's a big city for me. Mm-hmm. Right. Like, I can do a couple days here. I, it's, it's, it's, but I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, three days, I'm good, man. You're a woods guy. Just give me a, get out of the stage.

But it's like going, no, I need to move. It's like I'm not, I'm not, I can be at my house for two weeks. Oh, really? And then you got to go somewhere? Yeah, I'd like to. I mean, that's, I, and it's like when I need, I need that. It's like I'm not, I've got nothing. I mean, my business holds me down to being more grounded than I would if I was in a position within the business

where I could do this more, but that's kind of what my, one of my dreams is, is, and we would talk like pre-tend pandemic. And my dream was to be moving around and kind of, I'd accomplish almost everything of what my objective and what I foresaw is my dream in that moment, at that stage. Right. It's like on the magazines and being able to, the story. tell and then start to the first few steps of being able to bring people into reality of what is behind what I'm creating and designing because that's the neat part at this stage because it's so small and small in the sense that there's no one making any decisions except me for better or worse right like if it's fucked up it's my fault yeah right and the growth

might be slower for that. Yeah, and it's, or if it's good, it's my, it's, I get to, you know, holds, you know, a good amount of credit. Not that there isn't like, like, no, I don't do anything on my own. It's like one and I don't, I don't want it to ever be something that is miss, but it's like one, but no one else works for Blackbird brand. It's all like part of the chess play or part of the chess board. Yeah.

Now I can't take pictures and shoot video and I'm, I've been so fortunate. to have these amazing people that love the process or love the product or love the creative kind of experience in an adventure that is the kind of process. Yeah. Because it is. It's like, well, I just want to design shit. So what is the dream now? What is the next dream?

Oh, it's kind of a secret. Oh, really? Yeah. But it's there. Oh, yeah, but I never am not dreaming. Like my dreams are fucking, that's the thing. Okay, I just want to make sure you do have one. Oh, yeah.

I mean, I've got too many. And that's the, it's like putting them and like playing chess with the dreams. And I've used the analogy of chess so much. It's like, no, it's like, I'm positioning those dreams because I got a handful of them happening simultaneous. Yeah. They're all intertwined because everything is. But I have dreams that are kind of coming to life. I mean, even, you know, meeting some of the people I met now while in New York.

And some of the things that, you know, as we're sitting outside. Like, just sitting there, it's like going, and I had an idea that I just needed to, right? That's why I was here when I was here. Not that I was already on the way, because I'm punctual, but it's like going, and then I'm like going, it's like going, no, I just, I'll sit there. It's a good idea. And then, so then, you know, the idea that, you know, we'll see if it comes to fruition,

but that was kind of the idea that sparked when I was sitting there. And then it already went through a couple stages of exploration during the whatever hour in which was preliminary to this. Right. But that happened from a step off from lunch yesterday. And then not only did our evening after we left here last night, but like sitting in that space, it shook me up. And I mean this in a good way. It's like I needed to see that. Yeah.

Like I needed to meet him both of them. you've got new inputs. Yeah, and it's also, it's like when I get to see some things. It's like on, no, it's like I didn't know a lot. I mean, and I wasn't under the preconception that I know a lot because I know and I'm reminded every day on how little I know. I am very, very conscious of it. It's like going, but like I got more awareness of so many things I didn't know last night.

Yeah. Which was awesome for me. But it shakes me up and I know it does. You were open to the exposure. Oh, no, I need it. And it's like, and I know it, when it's happening, I can even acknowledge it. And I can know that it's, because it wasn't uncomfortable, but there was discomfort in moments, yeah.

And me shaking. Yeah, of course. Right? And it's like, no, and I loved it. And I actually even loved it more. And that's probably why I slept like shit last night. Because I was like, fuck me. You were firing.

I was spinning. I had a fucking tornado in my head. That's great. Yeah. And then I woke up and the only thing that could get me kind of settled is go to the gym. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. That's the best feeling.

I love that feeling. Like that's why I really like my favorite thing to do every night is like my wife and I will watch a show for like five minutes. She falls asleep immediately. I'll play FIFA. I'll just like play the soccer game. FIFA. That's the one that you guys play on that you and Andrew.

Yeah, on stream. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I'll play FIFA and then turn the music all the way down, put my headphones in and then just listen to YouTube videos of just like creators, YouTube algorithm hacks, you know, a podcast with like a philosopher, something to just, my brain with a new idea to then make me think differently. And I can do that before you sleep.

Right before I sleep. Because that's when I'm like, my brain, I feel like is the most fluid. So you're like a night guy. So if you put, so it's like going, and that's where it was funny because I was like going, fuck dude. I'd hope we do this discussion in the morning because I'm the opposite. Oh really? So I caught you at your worst time.

No, I mean, we'll see. I mean, it is what it is. Right. It's like going, that's probably why I should have done it at night. Yeah. Because it is where I'm leased on. I'm sharpest in the morning, but I'm the most free in the evening. My brain is not inhibited with the restrictions about all the things that I need to do.

And with the anxiety of all the things that I should be doing. But when it's 12 o'clock at night, there's really nothing else to do other than think and be free to be creative. And I shut down it. Yeah, yeah. So it's like going, and that's the thing like even when I got home to the apartment last night, it's like going, no. I get it. It's like going, all right. I can lay there and stare at the ceiling for an hour.

Right? And that's what I do. It's like because I didn't have that release, that deflation time. Yeah, exactly. That I almost need. Where it's like on, no, I do brainless shit for an hour at night. Brainless. Like, yeah, it's like going, that's why I've seen every fucking Netflix movie I've seen.

It's like it's my shutdown time. And I'm using all my computer simultaneously. So I need to like, it doesn't happen quickly. I know that I'm still like I'll have a computer and fucking cell phone. and a movie on. And that's my fucking decompression. Yeah, of course. And I have to go to the gym.

Yeah. So it's like when all those things like happen. That makes sense. But yeah, that's that that to me is how I know that I injecting my brain with something good. It takes me a little bit longer to go to sleep because I'm just spinning. That's the problem I would foresee for myself. Yeah. But it makes me really excited to go to sleep because then in the morning I get to do it.

So it's almost like some Santa Claus shit. I was the kid that like if Santa was coming. Do you dream at night? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I dream. 50-50. I dream a lot, though.

Yeah. It's healthy. I don't know what a psychologist is, but psych coin, yeah. I think dreaming for me is healthy. But I only dream. I dream every night. Really? Yeah.

And I can't. All types. Good, bad, weird, meaningful. Yeah, I mean, a lot of it has a reflection. Right. There is a reflection. If you're anxious, you have a dream about your teeth falling out, shit like that? No, I don't.

It's like when I haven't had, I mean, I've had dreams of, like ever falling from an infinite cliff and shit but not for many years but i'd had them all the time do you ever have productive dreams where you think of things and you come up with ideas well it's like i i will wake up in the morning and it's like i've been working so hard to get sleep but it's like when and it's when it's i'm trying to make sure i can do both like i used to pop out of bed at 4 in the morning it was a pop-up and i would be able to walk straight into it anything anything like there was no and then I mean during the summer I walked down to the lake and dive into the lake and swim as far as I can out and that's my ritual in the morning and I

contemplate going in I contemplate leaving my house every day I contemplate before I do my first dive into this cold lake every morning and I know that I'm contemplating it and I'm often putting an excuse to avoid it. But I don't, I force myself through that first step. Every morning. Every morning for six months. I do that for at least six months a year. Brain or shine, cold or not. Wow. And, and, and, and, but that contemplation happens 90% of it. And I notice it. Like, I'm conscious of these things. Right. It never goes away. It doesn't. But it's like one, but I don't let it even pause me. Does it ever stop you? Has it ever stopped you? It is. It's never, I didn't let it, though.

It's like when it's one of those things, it's like when, it's like when I, I'm in control because I'm taking control, right? It's not like I'm in control naturally. Right. You're naturally out of control. Yeah. And you're forcing control. It's like going, so it's like going, and knowing that you can force that control.

Through practice. Yeah. It's like when at the end of the day, that contemplation will always exist as I see it within that situation. Mm-hmm. So the only way. in which that contemplation is managed is in this way. What is that internal dialogue to overcome the contemplation?

That's where it goes into that thing. It's like, no, I will never stop thinking. The only time I stop thinking is when I'm sleeping. And even when you're sleeping, you're still dreaming. I'm still dreaming. So it's a fucking messy place in my head. Yeah. It's messy.

So that contemplation, how do you overcome it? Like, I feel that. I wake up in the morning and I'm nice and warm and cozy and I don't feel like getting up. Yeah, but then that's, but that's the, that's the, that's the, kind of thing. Like when as soon as I have that feeling, I get up. Like it's like one of those things where it's like going, if I think I shouldn't go do something, it's like the first thing I do is stop thinking and move now.

I look at it not in that comfort thing. I almost appreciate more that I've gotten up because I got up despite wanting to not. I think that's more in which I would look at it. It's like going, I almost enjoy that dive into the water. and then after coming back from swimming because I didn't want to and I still did it. So there's like a greater appreciation or love or like I feel better about that I've done it. Because there was a overcoming.

Yeah, because there was something that I did despite maybe contemplating not or attempting to find an excuse, you know, all these things. And despite that, I still did it. Right. And then there's a triumphant aspect probably. Yeah. If there's no internal conflict, then the triumph isn't as triumphant. Or then I just want to push it.

I want to seek that. I'm going to find that thing. Once you get comfortable in one thing, for example, for me going to the gym is not a triumphant thing. Pretty much every day I wake up and I just do it like in the way that I would breathe or like in the way I would go to the shower. How old are you go? How, sorry? Do you go early? What hour?

Yeah, I go early. First thing. Like the second I wake up, ideally I'm walking into the gym. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, but at a time that was very difficult for me, like in the last like two years. Two years ago, I would not have been that person. But now it's become second nature. So now I'm like, I should find, I should seek more discomfort.

I should seek more things that. I think so. Yeah. I mean, and I think. And it can be little things. Like, even just waking up at the right time. Like, you know, some days I'll wake up at eight. Some days I'll wake up at 9.30.

And then some days I'll wake up at seven. And I'm like, maybe I should just pick a time. And every day at eight, I'm up. Every day at seven. I'm up. Whatever that is. Yeah, I would go harder in your discomfort personally. Like what?

I don't know. Well, you do a lot of things that would be very uncomfortable for most. I think going on stage in front of an audience. It's uncomfortable for me many times. Yeah, well, and that's a big one. And I bet there's confidence that's built over repeatedly doing so. Right. That you still may contemplate it.

It still may be a lot of anxiousness before you did it, but not to level that I would have. Right. I would be hyper anxious, dude. I'd be fucking fun. Right. Well, this is like lifting 225. Like if you're benching 225, the first time, it's very hard. But once you've been lifting for a couple years.

And you're successful at it and you're good and you've got a competence that's beyond competence, right? And that came from doing it repeatedly probably and coupled with talent. Yeah. But are there things associated with comedy that give you a similar discomfort to that discomfort? had walking on stage, when did you become a comic? When did you walk on stage for the first time? I was 18 and a half. And were you in Florida at that time? Yeah. Okay, so you were in Florida, and at what type of comedy show or comedy establishment was it? Just an open mic at an Austin's

coffee shop and whatever part of Florida. It was a coffee shop that had like comics. Yeah. And it was it like, were there other people your age? Was it of all ages? All ages. ages. I mean, everyone was, actually, no, it was kind of younger, but everyone was like 22, 23, which at that time was like, these people are old. Yeah, and where in Florida again? This isn't like Orlando, a little bit outside of Orlando. Okay, so I know that place. Yeah, yeah, it's a cool spot. Yeah, and there's, because there's a lot of boat related stuff. Yeah, a lot of lakes. Yeah, lots of lakes. Um, so the amount of, when did you do a first club? Like, let's say, a comedy club. Probably.

like six months after that. Fucking present. That's fucking neat. So it was six months that walked you into a club. And you're still underage. So you weren't 21. Were any of these like of age places? Yeah, they were all worse.

So I kind of had to like sneak around or like people would know and then they just wouldn't ask because. Yeah. So there'd be a bunch of bars. So like if there was a bar show, I would, the bouncer would show. The show would start at eight. The bouncer would get there at seven. So I would get there at seven.

630 because in the daytime you sit bill is never back yeah exactly so I would just hang out there for like and I wouldn't even get up till 930 or 10 so I would just hang out there for three and a half hours just like dedication is awesome yeah no it's awesome but I remember the first couple times I was going there and being like dude the owner this guy Ken Miller was like dude I'd love to put you up but bro you're 18 you can't go up the bouncer's right here it's against the law and then he kind of was the one that was like come by early he won't be here so I sneak snuck in yeah it's fun but to that end Yeah, a lot of the places were where I was underage.

Was that harder than the coffee shop? Easier. Easier. Yeah. So you'd broken yourself in a bit at that coffee shop or the pre-bar stuff where you got some of your initial like hardcore,

like imagine it would be a pretty hardcore break-in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I imagine this is a non-comic that doesn't get on stage for shit. Yeah. Right? But I imagine that it would be a pretty severe break in. It's tricky.

It's more divisive. It's more divisive. to do well at a coffee shop, but the stakes are in a way for me at my perspective were lower. Because if I bomb at a coffee shop, there's 25 people there, 30 people there, you know, there's a coffee machine going. Some people are paying attention. Some people aren't. So if you bomb, you kind of just like shirk off and leave and everything's fine.

But you bomb at a comedy club. It's harder to bomb there because the people that are there really want to see comedy and they're there for the show and they got a babysitter and they drove 25 minutes and they are ready to laugh and they got a two drink minimum so everyone feels good. but if you bomb there, it feels way worse because there's 300 people in the room and you walk away

and you're like, dang. And you want to impress the owner, the booker, the people that work there, the waitstaff, other comics, of course. I could imagine all of that. So stakes are higher,

but it is easier. So like those moments, but I bet you're scale kept on growing too, right? So the more experience you got and then coupled with, you know, the audiences became,

greater, more impressive. The places in which you went were greater and more impressive. Yeah. Especially once I linked up with Schultz. I mean, I went from doing open mics to being in a theater in Toronto within like three months. That's so neat. And so how long was that before you were in Seattle? The time that we were there, that you were there.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that probably was like six years plus like a COVID year. Okay, so that six years is a long time. I mean, in regards to any profession, it's at least, there's time in it, not long, I guess long is a bit generous. But it's like going, but it's still six years, you're in it. Yeah. Yeah, you are a comic. For sure.

You are, and especially in the circle in which you're, you know, doing comedy is a legit. I'd like to think so. imposter syndrome still seeks you know slips in for sure but yeah yeah well i mean again as an outsider you it's definitely i mean because i remember the first time that i saw shoals yeah yeah the way where was it it was during his um covid like bits oh yeah yeah it's i saw him the same you know up his when the world began to see him more, I was just among that. Yeah. Right.

But it happened all very quickly. Of course. Like he went, he started, I think he just started to get that level of exposure. And we connected almost right away. Yeah. So, yeah, I remember that. There was very little time from when he started, because he was, he made me happy. Yeah.

He just made me happy. Very simple. fucking as simple as it gets. Right? And that's all I need. I mean, that's probably all we most of us need. It's like, it made me happy.

Right? So, and then, you know, that instantly, I mean, because that was because of COVID, he was just doing it on his own. Yeah, we were just locked in the studio. We had nothing to do. Yeah. Couldn't do any stand-up, nothing.

And I didn't really do any, like, the stand-up in the park shows or like Zoom stand-up shows. I wasn't really interested. And Flagrant didn't really. We were still doing the pod regularly, But we were doing these rants. And me and Schultz just kind of like locked in a couple other guys and just like, you know, we're helping create this, you know, these pieces of viral content.

It was insane. And it was viral. I mean, it, it, it was crazy. I don't really ever look back on it and, like, reflect on like what that was. But it certainly was a moment for sure. It's extremely impactful. I think it was impactful because it was necessary. Mm-hmm.

I think it was needed. I think that there needed to be some honesty. but done in a way in which is humorous. Yeah, which is the best way. I always think. No, I mean, it couldn't be any better. And it's like, and that's when, you know, there was all these threatenings

and everything was feeling threatened. Yeah. But there was a defiance to that in what you guys were doing. Yeah. And that's where I was like going, fuck. I was telling everybody, you better fucking look at this. I was. I was like, like, anybody that would listen to me.

I was like, this is the worst. look at it. He's saying what I mean. Right? Seriously. I was like going, he got to dial then? Yeah.

We got to go back to Seattle. That's the goal. When we go back, you got to come back to the show. Yeah, well, I want, I'm going to, we got to do something with the Lincoln

and, like, I got to show you what a real bike is. Yeah, you saw my guest tried to start talking a shit of me doing. No, I didn't.

I didn't talk any shit. I mean, It can't all be you, dude. Come on my way. I'm working on. I thought your bike was fun. I just want you to see what a real bike looks like. Perfect.

Let's do it. Can I ride it? That will be a moment before that. Okay, deal. Well, I'm excited, man. I really appreciate you coming and chatting and doing this. This is really fun. I'm going to stop comparing myself to other people.

I mean, it's a pleasure to be here. I have a lot of fun. Well, thank you, brother. I appreciate it. It's my pleasure. I'm so happy that I was able to do it. Let's do it again.