The Life of a Russian KGB Spy | Jack Barsky
00:00They had a list of enemies and they had to be killed.And so one guy showed up in the morning on the subway.It was dark.I'm waiting for the train and this guy comes up,a short guy with a black trench coat and he whispers into my ear.You got to come home.What else you are dead.So when does the FBI introduce themselves?
00:17I was commuting from New Jersey into Pennsylvania and there was a toll gate there.They had positioned a state trooper that they rented just to stop me.He told me routine stop, which he was pulled over.And then I see this other man coming from my right.He said FBI we would like to have a talk with you.My face went white as the driven snow.Then I caught myself, and the first question I asked,so what took you so long?
00:38And I saw they couldn't suppress a smile.Now, everything that we've talked about today,all the stories that you've shared,you don't have to say what,but is there anything that you've lied about?There's at least one thing I typically don't disclosethe worst mistake I ever made.When I made the decision to stay here?
00:57What was holding me here?your baby that you love.That's it.It's a spy story,but I think more than anything,it's a love story.You're going to make me cry.And why was your father a communist?
01:14Because of career ambitions.He was not...Are we being taped already?We're going.We're going.We're doing it.See, I figured you're just trying to trick me here.You don't have to.
01:31I'm a pro by now.So my father was, we never made, you know, strong statements in support of communism at home.As a matter of fact, in those days, there was a prohibition.You were not allowed to listen to West German radio, West German television.and we lived in a place that was called, jokingly,the valley of the cluelessbecause the West German TB signalwasn't strong enough to get to us
02:16unless you had a huge antenna.And once you had a huge antenna,the Stasi knocked on your door.Wow.Or the Young Communist Leaguewhich just climbed up your doorand rip the antenna down.So my father at one point, I remember that he ruminated me.
02:34Maybe we should have an antenna like that in this, and I can't do this.So he was a communist just because it helped his career.He became the principal of the middle school that I attended and made good money.So he wasn't a staunch ideologue?No, he was not an ideologue, I believe.You know, he spoke ideology in school because he had to.But the brainwashing that I received did not come from home.It came from the institutions.
03:03Oh, wow.And it started with kindergarten.Yeah, and I tell you, when you tell young people lies and they don't hear anything else,they stop thinking, they say, well, this is what it is.You know, and you can convince, you know, growing children when they're three, four years old,of a whole bunch of, like, the biggest lies there are.And what do you think of communism now?No, it's evil.
03:31But up until you were 18, 20, you were fully bought into that ideology.1820?I would say up until I eased my anti-capitalist feelingsbecause once I had a job in corporate America with an insurance company,I was looking for the evil capitalists,and I couldn't find any.I'm sure there were some evil people in the organization,but in general they treated us really well.
04:03This was in here in New York.We got free lunch.Pretty communist?Well, and also in those days,the insurance companies were very maternalistic,and it felt like going home.They said, we're going to take care of you, don't worry about it.And, you know, they paid me well over time.
04:25you know, I hated, I started to find out that I really don't like big corporations,but in those days, it felt like coming home.Hey, what's up, guys? Sorry to interrupt this amazing program, but I need a little bit of help.If you're watching this on YouTube, you can probably see our subscriber number right down here.And if you're able to, it would mean the world if you could subscribe.That is the best way to support this show, because when you subscribe, I'm able to showit to potential guests or to different brands and stuff like that.And it really, really helps grow the show, get us cooler guests, have cooler conversations,
04:53and it helps everything so, so much.if you don't mind, thank you so much.Let's get back to it.And there's a passage in something that Lenin wrote,and it goes like this.In those days, the ones that were resisting collectivization,and, you know, they were just much more individualisticthan the factory workers, farmers,
05:24because farmers own land, right?And that wasn't allowed.And there were some big farmers.They were called cul-locks, the ranchers.And so there's this passage in one of Lenin's writing,so it says, we need to string up 200 Kulags by the road, hang them.So everybody understands that fighting usand having a lot of property may be healthy to your,
05:50may be dangerous to your health and even life.that's what he wrote.I said, oh, my God.And this was redacted out.We didn't get to read that kind of stuff.So you read it for the first time.Yeah.And you say, oh, this is the ideology.
06:06This is how it was enforced.Oh, yeah.And we knew that Stalin was bad.And as I kept on doing research,and my eyes went really open up.And I said, I really served the wrong cause.And that's one thing that I regret.but on the other hand, if I hadn't said yes to the KGB,
06:27I wouldn't be able to talk to you today.I wouldn't be an American, which is nowadays I'm much more American than I'm German,and this is still the best country that I can think of,and I will not do what some of my friends are doing now.They're fleeing the country because they don't like what's going on hereinstead of helping to keep our sanity and put up a little fight,You know, not the fight with your hands and guns and so forth, but, you know, have a message.Do you remember, and this is the last thing I want to know about this specific aspect of your life,
07:06do you remember how you were intellectually inoculated as a kid about communism?Do you remember what they told you as a kindergartner?So there was a mandate.That was brilliant in Einstein.I'm not saying it was good, but it was brilliant.that we had to visit a concentration camp.All right, so we're not going for the feelings.And the concentration camp that we visited was Buchenwald.
07:35That's where they killed a lot of Jews.And it was very well known.It was right next to a town where there was a lot of German historywhere Goethe and Schiller lived.the best writers inin German historyand soas we
07:57were on a busand as we drive up therethere's thisthis doorwith the famous doorthat saysuhuh
08:09Arbite maht flywork work will set you freevery goodyou speak Germanyou understand somea little bit because I have a problemtranslatingmy German
08:21German and my English are not very well connected.You understand?I isolated them.Yeah.So anyway, and so we knew that we wouldn't be seeing something nice.It would be bad.So as we walked through there, you know, everybody got quiet,and then we went into the exhibition hall.
08:44And it was a rotunda.And there were like pictures, large pictures of,piles of corpses, of the cremation, you know, of all this really, really bad things that were done there.And it was like, ouch.And then somewhere in the back were the two most horrible things that we saw.And two shrunken heads in a glass case and the size of a fist.These were not made up.These were at one point people.
09:22These heads sat on the shoulders of a functioning human being.And a couple of lampshades, and they looked pretty nice.And then we saw what this was all about.The wife of the commandant of this concentration camp had them commissioned.She checked the incoming prisoners,and if somebody had a good tattoo,they were going to get killed and skinnedand lambshades were made out of them.
09:51You know, now the girls were cryingand we were like, oh.And then to, now we're set up.I mean, this is evil stuff and it's horrible.But here comes where they were really clever.And then they took us into a roomwhere people were just executed through a shotin the back.
10:18The brainstem?Yeah, exactly.So the idea was that they told them,we need to measure you.And once they stood there, a hole opened and bam.And one of the people who was executedthat way was Anz-Telman.And Ernst Thelman was the leader of the Communist Party
10:39when the Nazis took over.They first put him in a,in a prison and just before the war ended, like maybe six months or so, they moved him toBuchenwald and executed him there.Now, historic background, before the Nazis took power, the only forces, and this is thehistoric truth, the only forces that fought the Nazis in the streets physically were thecommunists.Okay, now, does that mean if they had gotten to power that they had gotten to power that
11:13they would have been any better.They would have been just as evil, but they fought them.And we knew that.So now here you have this juxtaposition of,we were the heirs of Ernstelmann who was killed by the Nazis,and there were Nazis in West Germany.So it was 100% clear that we were fighting the right fight.And on top of it, and I need to point that out,
11:39in college, so this is like,now we're studying sciencethat put the eyethe dot on the eyewe took a coursethat was calledscientificMarxism
11:52Leninismbecause we were toldthat Marx actuallydeveloped a sciencebecause he found outthe law of howhuman societywould evolve
12:04and eventually wind upby lawin worldwidecommunismso and that'sthat's a summary of the rainwashing.It was brilliantly done,and it's like the mouth of a shark.
12:23Once you're in,the teeth are pointed inward,so you can't get out.Wow.And I knew one or two individuals in collegewho didn't believe into this,believe in this,one of them was a
12:42declared Christianand another one was just a contrarianbut the rest of us we bought it hook line and sinkare all of us and the onesthat are still aliveunfortunatelythat's not too many of them anymorethey
12:57could never really get rid ofthat ideologyit was so deeply implantedand I had the luxury ofslowly contaminatingand notnot like being hit over the headwith a two by four when the wall came down.
13:13And all of a sudden, oh, my God, now they were victims or at least, you know, the rationalizationwas we were on the right side of history.We just had the wrong leaders.So communism was still good.And so in East Germany, when it comes to elections, the radical left and the radical rightscores a whole lot more votes than the rest of the country.Wow.So they show you the atrocities with the Nazis, which are true and real atrocities and real tragedies.
13:45And then they tell you the government of West Germany is run by Nazis.Yeah.And then they tell you one of our guys, the people that fought the Nazis, was martyred in this very place.Yeah, exactly right.And so then they give you all of the fuel, with all true facts, to create a story.Yeah.Feeling very often override thinking, and we have this in our context.country these days. There's a lot of feelings that rule and whatever. And the worst feeling that can do a lot of
14:24damage is fear. Okay. So you're a very smart, arrogant, brainwashed 18-year-old. And you go to college.Yeah. And you kind of get deeper into this sort of ideology in who.you are and then you get recruitedto go workat a job, I guess.And then you find out that it's a fake job.It is actually a ruse.And then you get recruited into the KGB.
14:51Is that how that happened?It was, the fakewas, didn't live very long.Okay.So, yeah, I'm sitting,I was in my, at the end of my secondor the third year of college,I'm sitting in the dorm room
15:09on a Saturday and I'm doing some homework.You know, I worked hard, to my credit.It wasn't just like falling into my lap.So I'm sitting there and there's a knock on the door.And we, when there was a knock on a dorm doorthat was another student indicating I'm coming in nowbecause we didn't have strangers to visit.And nobody came in.
15:34So I said, I knew already somebody who I don't know will come in.and interestingly enough in hindsight,that didn't occur to me then as smart as I was.I wasn't necessarily always very observant.How did he know which door to knock on?There were no nameplates.And in further hindsight, I realizedthat we had a Russian exchange student next door
16:04who sort of befriended meand probably sort of tried to feelfigure out, you know, who is this guy? And he was part of the recruitment team, okay? SoWow. I was not aware of it. But why would you investigate a compliment, right? Like,they're coming to you saying like, hey, we want you to do this thing. Why would you look into it?Yeah, well, it wasn't, it wasn't, it was a little more subtle. So the guy comes in and this was theThe most stupid, most idiotic person that worked with the KGB was not a member of the KGBbecause he was German, but he wasn't Stasi.
16:44So because his backstory was so, so he was just ignorant with regard to how East Germany operated.So he comes in and he says, you know, I want to just talk with you,with a little small talk, and then he said, we want to talk.with you what you're planning to do when you're done with college.Well, my plans really wouldn't have mattered much because we were all assigned.With one exception, if we were good enough to go and get the doctorate, we were allowed to stay.But after we got the doctorate, we were still assigned unless we were like really good,and then we had a career that would wind up in a tenure professorship.
17:30So I already knew when he came up with this stupid lie, he said, you know, I'm from this company.It is an optics company that's known worldwide, called Size.And he said that he was from that company, and he wanted to know if I might be interested in a job there.And it was such amazing.And some more small talk, and suddenly, and that's when he opened it.kimono just a touch he said you know i you know i really i'm not really from called size i work for thegovernment now the wicked me thought to ask him so what part of the government i already thought itwas stasi you know that there was nobody else could have from the government i don't know
18:22so i thought stasi and but i didn't ask him that question uh so and then he asked me the questionand it was passive aggressive, but it worked in that,I read him well.He said, so could you imagine one day working for the government?And I said, yes, but not as a chemist.Okay, so we were communicating between the lines.So he invited me to lunch next week in the most expensive restaurant.I still remember what I had, the most expensive meal.
18:58I had money but I was also cheap soWhat did you get?Was it steak?It was steak, yeah.Steak and French fries and steak friect.Steak frit?Yeah.It's a good order.
19:15And obviously every lunch you had to have at least one glass of beer most often two.Out of respect.But when I get to the table where I see him,there's another man sitting at the tableand I just didn't know, should I approach the man?Because in those days, there weren't enough seats in restaurants,so strangers would share tables.But he got up, he walks toward me, and he says,
19:40come on, I want to introduce you to Herman.We were working with our Soviet comrades.Of course, I knew KGB.Immediately.Yeah, well, I knew the KGB existed,and with regard to Eastern espionage,the biggest heroes were KGB agents.A German, particularly by the name of Richard Zorke,
20:06who was a journalist and operated as a German in Japanduring, you know, when the Nazis governed in Germanyand Japan was an enemy to the Western world,and particularly the Soviet Union,he was discovered and eventually executed.And he was a great hero of ours.So to me, now being introduced to KGB was like,wow, I've just been promoted, so to speak.
20:44Wow.Because I knew, and it was probably even true,that the KGB was the most powerful intelligence organizationon the planet because there were FBI,CIA police force and whatever else.And, you know, my ego started growing again.You know, like, okay.So, and then what really motivated me to even investigate what they have was my curiosity
21:14because at that point no offer was made was just like,let's get, let's have a talk, let's get together.It took 18 months for the offer to be made.again in hindsightI understand thatthey werecheckingthey knew the numbers
21:32they knew that I was a good studentand they knew that I wason thecollege basketball teamthat's a plus athleteand then I was very activein the youth organizationso
21:45overall myfile said that he's a goodguy he's going placeswhat they didn't knowand I brought a list herebecause Ididn't, I have a problem remembering this.They were, and I know this
22:02because they were looking for peoplewith a certain character trait profilethat would, and they were lookingactively for people who can't be deployedas illegals, okay?Not just any old agent, you know,most, even today,most espionage agents
22:23no matter where they come from,no matter where they operateunder diplomatic cover.So, you know, I'd say,if they screw up, they get kicked out.But, and then there'ssomething in between is calleda non-official
22:39cover, knock.That means they wouldoperate under their name and their professionbut wouldn't be known.You know, they would, you know, they're just,They don't have a diplomatic cover.And then when you say diplomatic cover, what do you mean by that?Well, at one point, except for the illegals, all the KGB agents were diplomats.
23:01You know, they were like consul or second vice consul.Literally working within the embassy and had a very...Yeah, they had to do their job, and some of them were employees of the United Nations in New York.Got it.They had an official job as diplomats, and then they were doing the spying.Seems kind of obvious.Yeah.Well, and they were followed by the FBI.
23:26And when they were caught, they got kicked out.And all countries have been doing it and are still doing it.So now when you say illegal, do you mean like an alias?Illegal is somebody who's taking on a completely different ID.I understand.And I was born in Germany, and the moment I set foot on the United States,I told everybody who wanted to know I was born in New Jersey.New Jersey.
23:50Joyzy.So I didn't know how to pronounce it then, but anyway.They gave you a tank top and a gold chain,and they were like, just get out there, start making pizzas.You'll be a true New Jersey resident in a lifetime.Well, it worked a little different,but eventually, you know, I did it well enough to survive as an American,as an illegal American, until I was betrayed by somebody.
24:15who let the, and it was MI6, let the MI6 know that there's a guy who's an illegals living someplace in the northeast of the United States.We'll get to that.Let me get back to, yeah, let me get back to what they were looking for.And I gathered this from a couple of interviews that were given by the, at that time, retired, there was no more KGB,the ex-heads of the directorate S, and that was the illegals directorate.And I pieced together what they were looking for in a candidate for an illegal.And if you don't mind, I'm going to read it off.Please.
24:54And quickness of intellect, high erudition, language ability, bravery, focus, quick response to fluid situations.Makes all sense, doesn't it?Hardiness to stress.Adaptation to completely new conditions of life.well-controlled inclinationto adventure. That's my favorite.Well, yeah.I was sometimes
25:22actually reckless to a pointwhere I thought I could get away with anythingand actually I did.And emotional stabilityand that pretty muchfits my personality.That is sort of a genetic imprint,part of my genetic imprint.
25:40And they took so long to figure out whether I fit this profile before they made me an offer.And when I said yes, I thought I was in, but I was not, they tested me some more.And if I had failed those tests, I would have had a severe setback career-wisebecause re-entering, you know, the life, the professional life,I certainly wouldn't have become a tenured professor.I didn't know any of that, you know.It's like blindly, this is what I did.Even when I signed up and I said, yes, when I came to the U.S.,
26:24I had no idea.But they were looking for people who just, you know, were optimistic.You say, oh, let's try this.And, you know, it's going to work.No problem.I was so, I'm sorry, I was so, I was so, I was so,convinced of my own ability to just come out victorious no matter what.I give you one example.
26:49I was athletic, but I was an awkward athlete, you know,watching me play basketball would have given you a headache.And, you know, now watching me play golf would probably put you in the,in an asylum someplace.I'm awkward, okay?But so, and when I, we didn't play basketball in high school.When I came to university,I wanted to play basketball because I had seen it on TV
27:19and I was one of the tallest people around.And I went to the coach and asked him, you know,can I join the team?He said, have you ever played it?I said, no.He looked at me.All right, we put you on the second team.first time
27:34I went to practicewe had a little game at the endI got hit in the headby the basketball from behindI had no clueand so and thenI applied myselfI
27:47went to practicethere was the first teamwe were allowed to practice with themthe second teamand then I joined a groupofofmaybe ninth graders
28:01who weregetting drilledfor, they were prepared for, you know, becoming really good players.And I had no problem joining them and learning, you know, the basics.You had a confidence that you would figure it out.Yeah, well, and I knew that working hard somehow gets resultsbecause, you know, I didn't ace my college by just being smartby also studying like a maniac, okay?
28:32And two years after I joined the second team,I was invited to join the first team,and a year after that I was on the starting lineup.So, you know, I knew I could overcome anything.It's, of course, not true.You have that feeling as a young man.I had that super confidencebecause once you try something that people say,
28:54well, you may want to be a little more carefuland you come out victorious,and it happens again and again,No one's telling me anything.You'll become your own God, right?So how did they assess these things in you?Like, how can they learn that you have a novelty and a desire for adventure?Okay, the adventure.
29:15You know, I met with this Herman guy, you know, once every week or maybe once every other week.And he became sort of an Arsatz or, you know, a secondary father to me.My dad was out of my life.and he was 10 years older, Herman.And I shared everything with him.I was brutally honest.I shared the fears that I had.I was pretty shy around the girls in those days.
29:46I was stupid, man.I was good-looking.What a waste.And I was tall.I could have had a girlfriend every other week.Should be ashamed of you.But I was just shy around girls.What's up, guys?
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31:51from your cell phone.This is a paid advertisement.Now let's get back to the show after the short disclaimer.Do you mind if I see the list?See the list by all means.So.Oh, you want to go through a few others?I guess I'm just curious, like, how these things were assessed in you, right?
32:08You're just meeting with this guy.Now we're getting into a part of the interview that nobody has ever touched.So, you know, virgin territory.Go ahead.Because I'm curious, right?Like, this is very much like, are you familiar with Harry Potter?Yeah, I read the entire series.There's something about.
32:27As an adult, not too long ago.It's a great series.There's something about the series that I think resonates with many people is that this feeling of I'm underappreciated.People don't see my genius.People don't see the greatness that I have.And then one day you get a letter that says, hey, you've actually been selected.And we've been waiting for you.And now is time for you to fulfill your ultimate potential.
32:48And hearing your story gives me that type of feeling.It may give you that kind of feeling, but I didn't have it at the time.I can when we get further into the interview way way down.down, I can tell you when in fact I knew that I had been underappreciated all my life,not when the KGB, this was while I was operating as an American as a citizen, okay?So go ahead ask them.So I'm curious.So language ability, at that time you spoke German.
33:21Yeah, I spoke German and I pulled A's in Russian and in English.none of that was tested.But they could look at that and say...The language ability came...First of all, they wanted me to be in...This is actually for Russian recruits.And very few Russians can get rid of their accent.Very difficult.
33:53That's why they recruited in the Baltic statesand in East Germany.So language ability was not necessarily what Herman was looking for.That came out when I was already in,and I had to learn another language,and I blew them away by how quickly I became fluent in English.That's when they thought,they wanted me to go to West Germany.
34:17That made sense, right?Language ability, the same language.But once there was a chance that I could actually come into the U.S.as an Americanand sothat doesn't get any better than that.Yeah, because you don't really have an accent.I have a little bit of an accent.
34:35I can hear it when I hear myself on tape.Can you say squirrel?Squirrel? Why not?Pretty good. It's pretty good.I've always heard, every German person I ever met,if you ever talked to a German person,ask him, say the word squirrel.It would be like scowril, scourish, scarring.
34:49It's many videos about this. It's very funny.But you said squirrel perfectly.My ex-wife reallyhe's a fan of Arnold Schwarzeneggerand she regretted that I don't have that accent.I'm the party pooper.Something likehardiness to stress.
35:08How was that assessed?Well,college was stressful to a lot of us.It was very demandingand there were a lot of tests to take.And I aced the programbecause I was never stressed out.I was prepared.
35:26And so what was the training likeonce you were actually given an offer?Training was all one-on-one.There was a lot of self-studies.So I had a list of thingsthat I should be engaged in.There was never a curriculum.There was never a plan.
35:40I was never told, next week,we're going to do photography.It was just like,all right, tomorrow we're going to start photography.They may have had a planthat didn't share it with me.So there was trade,which the training for tradecraft in Berlin was not very good,
35:59except they taught me Morse code.They taught me how to work with a shortwave radio.And I learned one encryption decryption algorithm,a little bit of photography,and the basics of meetings,surveillance detection and dead drop operations.You know what a dead drop is?I'm familiar a bit just through listening to some things with you.
36:35But I didn't understand exactly how it works.All right.This is dead drop operations.There's two ways of three ways of giving things back tothe headquarters.There's informationthat you can do with Morse code or secret writing.Then there is,
37:01and then there are things that have a dimension,weight, like money, passports,whatever else, keys.For things, you either need to meetand hand it to the other guy.You can also be done with a brush passwhere like you pass each other and say have like both of you have a newspaper and something in thatnewspaper and he had changed newspapers in a in a spot where whoever follows you just lose a side of
37:35you it's pretty complicated we never practiced that and the dead drop is is an asynchronous actionso so you never meet so let's sayMy first dead drop was to hand me money and a passport so I can travel back to Moscow after two years.And so the way this works, first of all, you have what you want to hand over and you put this into a container,something that holds something that is not considered out of place where you put it.and I usedrocks made out of plasterof Paris
38:18if you do itwhere you put it in a park someplacenobody figurespick it upno animalwould pick it upthe mistakethat they made
38:28was they used oil cansnow that again in hindsightI figured that was really stupidbecause we had this in a parkso they had a crushed oil canwhat ifa park ranger sees thisand picks it up
38:43and so is in the garbage.Anyway, so, but this is how it worked.Place and time, very well known to both parties,the spot very well known.It had some kind of a cover name, whatever it was.So operation there and there.And at this day, the time was always at 315 for meto actually check a signal, usually a chalk mark,
39:11someplace near where the agent already dropped the can.And if the signal was there, I can go and pick it up.If it's not there, I go back home.Interestingly enough, all operations that we had were never abandoned.They all worked.That to me indicated that they were able, if they had,if they have a tail, they were able to shake the tail.You know, FBI was after them all the time.
39:48When they left the officer, when they left where they lived,if they had enough agents, FBI would follow them.But, you know, when I met somebody who was working in that fashionat the time I was there, he said we didn't have enough people to cover them.So they would go out and there would have been maybe five.or six in a vehicle and then they would leave and one goes this way one goes that way and thenthe one does a little more surveillance detection and if he's clean he goes through with the operationso they had an advantage but anyway so I see the signal I pick up the can and then I set a signal
40:31someplace else where it says you know I got it and he would check that signal and if it's notthere he picks it up and goes homewhere we came from.So that's, in a nutshell, a dead drop operation.What would be the signal that would be used to indicate that it was there?Oh, it could be just a horizontal chalk mark.Very simple.You know, you pass by something and you're just, in passing, you just, yeah,
40:58everything has to be done mindful that there's somebody following you.And typically, where I set the signals is when I could turn a corner at the building.and so you create a blind spot forthey can't be that close to see what you're doing therehow would you shake someone that was following younever never practice thatnever practice thatyou know I can give you an idea
41:24something like you know youyouyou wait for the subwayandyouyou stand thereand there's maybe multiple trains going in multiple directions.And a train comes in and the door is closed
41:46and you, last moment, you jump in.Because you stand there and it's legitimatebecause you wait for the other train.Now I just made that up as you were asking the question,but this would work.Same thing with leaving the subway.You're standing just when the door's close.and there's a number of but we never practice that
42:10I seebecause for an illegal like meshaking a trailwould indicate that I'm up to no goodyou know I would nownow I invite them to really investigate meeverything that I did had to look very very normallike anything that a normal person
42:31who is just like a normal regular citizen would doand unfortunately surveillance detectionI had to do some things that were not entirely normalbut because I had to like go throughNew York for instance for about three hoursand go here, go there and go to placeswhere people had to be really closeso I can remember their faces
42:59and when I see them again I know that I'mthat I'm under surveillance.But, you know, walking,moving around in the city,going to buying tickets, movie tickets,going to an apartment building,going to a museum,doing all these things is not normal.
43:19However, I was toldthat it is not proof in courtthat I was up to no good.Okay, it can't be proved.It's like it, yeah,like an agent, but you never know.So I never found that I was being followed while in the United States,and I was really good.
43:45I received like superb training.By the way, this fellow told me, never ever,this is how somebody would detect that you were trained,that you're maybe an agent,never walk towards a display window of a department storeso you can see who is behind you.No good.So I got really good training.
44:09I think the guy who trained me was,I know that he was in charge of one of the teamsthat followed diplomats,Western diplomats and businessmen.And he demonstrated some things to methat I, he told me,I'm not trying to teach you that.distraction walked around and he said follow me for what he had follow me for a while and then after
44:36about five minutes he said did you see something I said no and he walked me back and there was aflower bed you know wooden and in there he had some kind of a cartridge that he had dumped in thereI must have looked that way when he did it like a magic trick yeah yeah like likea magician, exactly.So, but I got, we had about a half a dozen practice runs where I was told the same dayin the morning my liaison came in or into my apartment and says, get ready, it's time to gocheck for surveillance.And so I did that in Moscow.
45:17I had studied the city.You got to study the place where you live.It's your playground, okay?And no matter, there's a number of reasons why you do this,but surveillance detection was,and pretty much still is number one,even though nowadays there's cameras all over the place,but the cameras don't see you when you're in their blind spot.
45:43So you need to be prepared differently, okay?I wasn't prepared for cameras.But anyway, so six times it was a contest,because these guys wanted to win.I mean, they were also evaluated, right?And I was evaluated.At the end, it was six me and nothing them.You have, in this particular exercise,
46:11the individual being followed has an advantage.But I was also told that I was one of the best.Again, right?The ego goes up again.So what exactly was the task?Like, they would follow youand try to detect something?Like, how did the training sessions work with these in these six cases?
46:28Their task was to follow me without me finding out that I was being followed.And my task was to find out that I was being followed.And also describe the individual who I knew was following me.And one time I got fooled big time by a really clever guy.So a little background in those days,in Russia's cigarettes were extremely cheap,so it was not unusual to ask a stranger for a cigarette,merely like five copics or something like that,
47:04like the equivalent of a half a cent.So in one time, you know,I chose certain spots where people had to come close enoughso they wouldn't lose me, okay,like a bus stop, you know, someplace.a little outside of the city.And I'm standing at a bus stop and somebody asked me for a cigarette.I gave him a cigarette.
47:31Well, my teacher told me that that guy actually made this up on the spot to like pretty muchtake himself out of consideration of me thinking of him as a candidate for a, to be part ofthat team.Because it be too obvious.It was just like, yeah.Like what if you're trying to be covertive?Oh, wow.Yeah, it's so obvious.
47:57Yeah, so it was a game, but I didn't detect him.I detected one or two others, thank God.Otherwise, they would have won.And so you were told just to go around the cityor you were told to do a specific task?No, no, no.I had to develop my own route.And how long did you have to be out for?
48:14Three hours.So they said, go out for three hours.Yeah.And see if you're being followed.Three hours, roughly three hours.And my favorite, there were a couple of favorite spotswhere you can, where you force people to get closeand department stores, you can go this way
48:33and then turn around that way.You know, you're looking for stuff, right?But my absolute favorite spot was the Museum of Natural Historybecause, you know, there weren't too many people in there.There were hallways.There were, you know, there were rooms.and you could go in and out.So in New York, I thought I was reasonably sure
48:57that I was not being followedand FBI confirmed that way after the fact.But it also helped me to find outthat I wasn't being followedor being reasonably sure that the KGB,when they thought I was being investigated by the FBI,I had reason to believe that they were wrong.You know, you're never sure about that, but I couldn't find any signs.
49:25And because I was, quote, unquote, one of the best, I was pretty sure.And so detect that you're being followed, one of the tactics would be go to a sort of large, open, kind of desolate place.Like, what other ways could you detect that you're being followed?Elevators.Escalators.Once you finish up training and you're actually assigned to go to the United States,Yeah.You go through Mexico.
49:52Is that correct?Yeah, that was my last stop before I got on a plane and wound up in Chicago.And what exactly was the assignment and how were you given your alias?Okay.My alias was discovered by one of those diplomats that were actually working for the KGB.He worked in Washington, D.C.and this is what the KGB didand this is how Russian intelligence still works these days
50:25they're looking for tombstones of people that passed away earlyand they found the tombstone ofthis guy found the tombstone of Jack Barskiwho passed away at the age of 11that means age of 11 there was no real record in society of himhe hadn't gone tohe may have been in kindergartenin elementary school.
50:48But so, and in those days,and this is one of the thingsthat is typical of United States,we're not very security consciousand very open to foreign intelligence.And nowadays it's via the internet.And in those days,the diplomat was able to acquire a death certificate
51:09and then with that he was acquired to,was able to acquire a certified copyof the birth certificate.He didn't have to show his face.He didn't have to talk to somebody.He didn't have to prove that he was actually somebody who was entitled to this document.Pretty damn bad counterintelligence, right?But the country, you know, we are a very trusting nation.
51:35The reason being that it's in our national DNA.This is what I call this, because the U.S. had never been invaded.the continental U.S.has never been invadedby another country.So when you grow up in Europe,you're always worried about your neighborbecause Europe has historically
51:54always been at war, right?And they still are.But so anyway, so I had this birth certificatethat I had with meand the moment I,within a couple of days of mearriving in the U.S.,I became Jack Barski.
52:12That's the way it worked.Now, why does it have to be a real person?Why is that advantageous?Why couldn't they just forge a birth certificate?The forgeries are detectable.So then when you came through Mexico, did you have a passport?Yeah.And what was the passport?
52:26Canadian.And was it Jack Barski?Oh, no, no, no, no, no.That was forged, I'm pretty sure.That was a forgery.William Dyson, it's the only name that I remember.So it was a Canadian passport forged going through?Mexican customs?
52:44No, no. Into Mexico.Yeah, yeah, into Mexico andthen also into the U.S.Got it. And this,in hindsight, I actuallyrealize that as I'm standingthere in linefor customs
52:59immigration,I'm thinking, shit,I don't speak like a Canadian,eh? Because I had been to Canadaand I knew thatthey speak differently.So, you know, I gotI got really tense.
53:16There was a tensest moment in my entire life.That moment.Yeah.When I was waiting to be processedand I justmade sure that I answeredany question with very short sentences.And the guy,
53:34there were a couple of people talking to me.They obviously didn't pay attention.The guy speaks like an AmericanHe's a resident of Toronto?Hmm.I got lucky.And that was at Customs in Chicago?Customs, and the first one is immigration.
53:52They didn't look at your passport.Right.What are you, Canada?What are your plans to do?What are you going to do in here?Business.No, I'm just going to visit, you know, check out Chicago.I've never seen Chicago before.
54:07And then that was the end of that.Now, customs could have, was actually more dangerousbecause it was clear that I came from Mexico.There was a stamp in the passport.And I had very light luggage.There was nothing in my suitcasethat indicated that I was on vacation in Mexico.Okay, and I traveled with a shortwave radio.
54:34It was commercially available, but...But had they looked into your bag?Yeah, they did.They did.They looked.They looked for contraband.But they weren't just sharp enough to say that, this is really odd.Let's talk to him a little bit.
54:48I would have flunked the interview like in flying colors.When they were looking in your suitcase, were you nervous?Stoic.You know, that's the only answer.I was nervous when I was waiting.But then I got through the first one and I'm just like, no, what?Que serrat, serra.No choice.
55:08No choice, right.Wow.And so then once you get through, then you get into Chicago.And what was your objective?It was sort of vague, I remember.Well, the number one objective was to acquire bona fide American documents.And before, and I was supposed to make my way to New York.Because in New York, they had lots of KGB agents,
55:34and there was the possibility of communicating via signs and dead drops and so forth.At the time that you were sort of deployed, how many KGB agents could you estimate were also deployed in America?That's a wild guess, but I would say several hundred, a couple hundred at least.You know, there were UN employees and probably the majority of the,the Soviet embassy were agents, or at least subject to KGB supervision, so to speak.So for the next 10 years, you're basically, your one objective is just try to get documents to send back to it.No, no, no, no.This is the part of when people ask me, so what was your real task?
56:26And this is interesting to tell you that I was not told what was the most important thingof me being in the United Statesand that was being in the United Statesas a citizen, as a functionalcitizen. I'm going to go back as to whatI had to do first.And I pieced it togetherin hindsight. First of all, again,
56:51this I found outbased on the interviews that these twodepartment headsfor the directorate S gave.Towardsthe end of the 80s, that was my time,mid-to-end 80s,the Cold War heated up significantly.
57:09There was a war between the CIA and the KGB,and the diplomats, when they were caught,they were kicked out, and then there was retaliation.So sometimes there were three diplomats kicked out,and then Moscow kicked out three of us.I say us, by the way.And it was known that Andropov,was worried about the diplomatic relations to be broken altogether.
57:39And, and now they put two and two together,in those days, the most important agents that the KGB had in the United States were moles.One by the name of Aldrich Ames, he was a mole in the CIA,not detected at that time, he was operational,and the other one was Robert Hansen, mole in the FBI.Yeah, according to him.Boy, oh, boy, did they give very valuable information for pay to the KGBand their interface, the people that they interfaced with were all the diplomats.
58:20So what happens if the diplomats get kicked out?You know, there's no way to get the material back to Moscow.And then us, so we were like the insurance policy that,If something like this happened was, we were never told, not even a hint, which is kind of stupid.Because I got no instructions, you know, if something like this happened, this is what we want you to do.There could have been also the possibility that they would want me to go and pick up some explosives and do some damage that way.I don't know.Okay, so this was number one, the number one thing that they wanted me to do.
59:04In that regard, I was very successful.I managed to get a driver's license and a social security card,which was all that was necessary to operate as an American in the U.S.And then they had this wild dream that I could befriend peoplewho make decisions in foreign policyor at least influenced foreign policy decisions like conservative think tanks and so forth.It would be, you need to, you know, befriend people like this.Okay, my first job was take a wild guess.
59:44I was a bike messenger.Well, you know, I couldn't take my resume with me.I couldn't pretend to know chemistry or math.Because where did I...There's no record of you at any college.There's nothing.No, my backstory was I flunked out of high school.on purpose for health reasons.
01:00:07And then I moved upstate New York to work on a farm.So a farm boy coming to New York.And it was chemistry.No, it was chemistry.Unlikely.So, and I figured out, you know, they really, they thought I should maybe go to work at the docks there in downtown Manhattan.I very quickly found out that these are high-priced jobs and they're highly unionized.You can't get in unless you know.
01:00:34somebody.Andthen they figured maybea taxi driverand thatdidn't seem to be veryprofitable.It was very, in those days
01:00:46you know,you work for the manwith a medallion and dangerous on top of it.Well, what I picked eventuallywas even more dangerous.But, you know, I foundI had an ideathat
01:01:00Messengerthese were minimum wage jobsand that means most likelyyou didn't have to show a resumemost likelythey didn't ask you a lot of questionsthese were a lot of transientsI had watched this
01:01:17so I figured one day I went toone of those messenger offices and asked themI had an adso are you hiring? Yeahand somehowas luck would have itthe person who talked to me saidcan you ride a bike?
01:01:34I said, yeah, you have one?No, but I could get one tomorrow.Okay, show up.And show up tomorrowand we'll tell you where to go.At that point, I didn't even know thatyet that bike messengers were paid commission.Half of what the company charged
01:01:55went to the bike messenger.The reason bike messengers were so important,they were faster than anybody.You know, then because Manhattan traffic moves slow.The trains off schedule.Yes, exactly.And we could just put particular during a strike.My God, we were the only ones who could deliver.
01:02:14And it was a shortage because this was a crazy job.You had to be nuts to ride a bike.Going through red lights.I never went through red lights.No, I drove smarter.I never went on a sidewalk either.Okay, because you just collide with pedestrians and that's not good for you.either. So I went always
01:02:33with traffic, never against traffic.You know, I was a smart bike messenger.It probably was one of the best period.I figured outhow to get across town the fastestand that requiresto understand how thepatterns are when the red
01:02:49lights go on and I managedto, and it was in thehigh 50sif you goeast, I didn't have to stop itany red lights.And the other way was another.So I would go up or down to go that way
01:03:07because eastern west was the slowest.So anyway, so I show up at that officeand the dispatcher explained to me how it worked.And then he says, and here's the ticket.You need to have it signed.And we're going to put it in a bin with your namebecause you get paid based on the ticket.Oh, nowadays I would say praise the Lord.
01:03:31But that was just a big piece of luck because after a month I was able to move out of my hotel and rent an apartment and start living as an American.And I did not need any infusion of KGB money anymore.I was able to make a living.We're going to take a break real quick because you have back hair.Yeah.And if you're like any other dude in the world with back hair, you probably have your wife, your girlfriend.your boyfriend, you probably have to ask them,hey, could you get the spot on my back?
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01:05:46I never will.But if you're looking for the shaver of the future,it's at backscope.com.Let's get back to the show.As a bike messenger,clearly, I couldn't befriend people like those targets.Like, at one point they mentionednational security advisors
01:06:02Bzzyzinskiand so Ibriefly mentioned that namefor 60 minutesand it became an urban legendthat it was my task. No, it wasn't. It was just a dreamthat they had because Bzinski wasalso
01:06:21the head ofthe Department of InternationalRelations at Columbia and they figuredmaybe I could sneak in therenot as a bike messageand, you know, I justI couldn't find a real good reasonto befriend people like that.
01:06:36Did you get seduced by American cultureat all? Like, did you start to goto bars or go to restaurantsor meet American women?Come on.Like pretty immediately, huh?No, I was smart enough to waitbecause, you know,
01:06:51and I noticed this, you know,I'm sitting, the firstyear when I stayed in a hotel,I didn't interact with anybody.My task was to acquire the documents, and that is what I focused on.And secondarily, I got to know the city, and I told you that is very important.So every day I paid my the monthly rent.It was a monthly kind of a hotel in cash.
01:07:21And I had to give the impression that I had something to do,and this is something that I came up with by myselfI can't just stay in in the hotel for dayseven when the weather is bad so in the morning I leftand the evening I came back after hours so to speakand so I took the time to take every train to every stationand I knew the city really wellso that's why I also was pretty good at surveillance detection
01:07:54rightSo...When did you start to dabble in American culture?Okay, so now I start this job and I'm...Making some money.No, hold it.No, no, no, no.I was smart enough to be more cautious.
01:08:10And I noticed one thing, I'm sitting in the office, in the messenger office,waiting for my next delivery.It was my task to only deliver, not pick up mostly.So the foot messengers would go to the customers that were available.will buy on foot and they would bring it the packages to the office then then the dispatcherassembles a route and then I'm off so I'm sitting there and I'm listening and I realize thatI know shit about anything what it means to be an American you know you know what about thoseYankees and what about this player and what did we watch last night and what problems do we
01:08:49I mean I was just listening and I knew that I can't get too close to it to itintelligent beings.So the dating game was off.I was also very much aware that even when I started dating,an American-born woman would still be too dangerousbecause I still wasn't 100%.The first time I felt really 100% Americanis when I had my first job at the insurance company.
01:09:21And it was also comfortable because half the teamthat I joined was immigrants, you know, Chinese, Russian,Ukrainian, Italian, and Italian and Cuban.But there were other born Americansand I felt comfortable.It took me a while.The first date that I went on was with a black girlbecause I was actively looking for it.
01:09:54actively looking for, I put an ad in the newspaper and I was looking for a black womanbecause I like dark skin.I didn't know that I like dark skin because, you know, there was none available in Germanyor in Russia.And it's just like, oh man, they're beautiful.So, and I dated her for a while.And then the second date was very safe because she was in.immigrant from South America and she couldn't possibly know that I'm not 100% American.
01:10:33And so eventually I was able to date born Americans, but this one actually was the last one I datedbecause I married her, the one from South America.Yeah.Interesting.And she played a big role in the fact that I'm able to talk to you today.If it wasn't for her, I wouldn't be here today.Why?Because she decided to get pregnant.
01:11:03Now, first of all...She decided.Yeah.First of all, she didn't tell me right away that she was in the country illegal.No.And at one point, you know, we dated, we cut along very well.She was very pretty, very nice to be with.Where was she from?
01:11:26Where did she go?From Guyana.Very poor country.Very poor country.She was a flight attendant and one day she decided to stay here.And so after about six weeks of dating and having been intimate, it was fun.You know, after having lived two years like celibate, it's not easy for a young man.And then you meet a Guyanese woman and...
01:12:00Or hot, Chinese woman.And then one day she asked me this question that was like, what?She says, you know, I'm going to ask you a question.If I get married to another man, can we still see each other?again some cultural ignorance thereI didn't even understandwhat it means to be in illegaland how you become legal
01:12:33but she explained to methat she was married once alreadyI even remember the name of the last name of that personhack and she paid him some moneyand then he didn't file for a green cardso I felt really sorry for herand I saidlet me see what I can do you shouldn't
01:12:52You shouldn't have to, you know, do this again.You know, I was sorry for her, right?And I did some investigation what it takes to make, get a green card for somebody.And at that point, I pretty much knew that I had what I needed to, you know, the ID.I needed a birth certificate.And I needed to have an address.And I had all of that.And I said, I think I can do that for you.
01:13:21partially was because I was afraid of losing the sex.Partially, you mean fully.It was fully that.This was clearly a stupid risk that I shouldn't have taken.But then she decided to get pregnant to hold on to mebecause I told her, once we were married and you got your green card,I get divorced again.We get divorced again.
01:13:44I'm not the marrying kind.She said, yeah, so, and then she did something that is somewhat,It's not rare, let's put it this way.In those, you know, with females who come from poor countries,they make a child to keep the man.Well, she didn't do it alone.No, of course not.But I didn't know I was making a child.
01:14:07I thought she was on birth control.I see.So she decided to get pregnant.We never talked about it.There was a deception involved.There was, yeah, indirect deception.I talked about birth control,and she was, yeah, sure, and then she stopped doing it.
01:14:26I see.Now, some women get pregnant on birth control, you know that too, right?South Americans, mostly.Very, very fertile, extremely fertile.Yeah.And so that was the end of dating.Because, you know, I had to take care of the baby.So then you got a green card somehow?
01:14:49Like, how does that work?If you're also illegally here...No, no, I got her a green card.So you did it for her?Yeah, sure.I didn't need a green card.I was born in the country.Right.
01:14:58I got my social security card.I was a citizen.I was born in the U.S.And did she ever know that you were a spy at this point?Absolutely not.She found out when the FBI,when I was working with the FBI,they disclosed it to her.
01:15:10So...Did she ever consider, like, oh, can we get married?And then I can get my green card through marrying?No, no, no, we got married.That was the whole idea.I see.I couldn't spy.I had to marry her.
01:15:21So you were on the right track, but I invest, she introduced me to a friend of hers who was also illegal, a male, who got married to a female.And he told me what the process was all about.And I said, I can do it.You have to show up for an interview.And most likely you have to prove that you live in the same place.So you are separated.and you have to describe what your living room looks like and so forthwhat's out of the bed do you sleep on yeah and so I had an apartment and and we spent some time
01:16:01together living there so we were in in the same space and at that point we didn't have the childyet okay that would have been tough because the apartment was too small and the kid was too loudbut so whenwhen we had the appointment for the interviewPennythat's her name and nicknamewas already visibly pregnantand we show up there
01:16:30and theperson that is interviewing peoplethe lady she looked at the stomachsaid I don't have to talk anymorebamapprovedwowSo we moved in together.
01:16:47Found a place where I could still do my spy stuffbecause there was one room that was at the opposite end of everything else along hallway.And I told her that I was doing work for somebody who I befriended in the officeso we could make some money on the side.And I couldn't be disturbed.Because you had to be speaking to the KGB at 9.15 p.m. every night.Is that correct?No, on Thursday, yes.
01:17:15Is only every Thursday?At 8.15.At 8.15.But you got close.So how, how, you justify this to her by saying, oh.Yes, no, you can't disturb me because I need to concentrate.And she was very docile in those days, you know, because she knew she depended on me.And I had told her I'm not the marrying kind, so she was still worried that, you know, the child wouldn't keep me.
01:17:41Right?but, you know, I already made a step in the direction that, so she really followed all the rules.I said, you can't come in here, and she never did.So I took that risk and it worked.It's another stupid risk, right?It just seems like a hassle.It seems like it just.Of course it was a hassle, but it was, you know, again, I was risking my existence.
01:18:07And that was, I didn't love her, but I cared for her a lot.Of course. I'm sure you love the baby and you have this child.I didn't know I loved the baby yet, but I learned to love the baby.So you now grow up with a, you know, and I told you before,I don't know if we were taped or not, you know, you're tricking me.That I love women and I love girls.And this girl was so pretty.Oh, she had these curls and the biggest eyes.
01:18:35She had eyes much bigger than average.and she just kept on smiling at me and loving mewithout she couldn't talk, right?18 months, that's when my life absolutely changed.Am I allowed to talk about this now?That is the pivot point in my life.You know, Penelope, who got pregnant,is the reason because the girl isn't responsive,
01:19:09for her existence, but because of her existence, I'm here now today.So this happened in the fall of 1988.I was already in my 10th year, and there was no indication yet that my stint was coming to an end,even though they indicated that 10 to 12 years, so it got close.But nobody had said anything about getting ready to come home.at the reason that there's athere is a limit to how longan illegal can exist
01:19:41when you live too longin the other country and you're reallysuccessful at your taskyou're a riskwhy you could be turned because you'redoing the job all of a suddenyou become the person you're supposed to becomeyou you change your personality
01:19:59I dreamed in EnglishI you know I was a Yankeefan.You became who you presented to be.Exactly. And so, and you become comfortable and the life was good. I got raised at work.So I was close to being able to buy a house, which I did two years later.So they knew that. So you would be vulnerable to A, being turned and B, just likedisappearing. And did they know that you had a kid? Do they know you have a family?
01:20:31No, no way.No, I know that...You didn't tell them?No, of course I didn't tell them.Crazy.But why?And they don't check on you?No.
01:20:40I knew that they wouldn't, couldn't because if they check on me, it's like when you...It's like a waking spider when you touch the web.It's like they aren't.Who could have checked on me were all the diplomats and they were under surveillance.You know, there was never.any physical contact, no meetings.So if a diplomat checks on a spy, then that tips off the FBI to the spy.Yeah, and so they trusted me 100%.
01:21:11They had no choice.They pretty much had no choice.And the reason that they didn't check on me, I mean, I don't know.I made another mistake when I graduated from college as valedictorian,and I had to give the graduation speech at Massachusetts.Madison Square Garden, 4,000 people there.Which school was it, again, that you went to?Baruch College, part of City University.
01:21:38That's right.So the KGB paid for you to go to college?No, I was completely independent of KGB money.I took a loan.I had some money and I took a loan.It was pretty cheap in those days, City University.No, no, no, no.They told me to, and I, they were very happy with my financial independence
01:21:59because every time they would have to shovel money in my waythat was somewhat dangerous, right?And what was your degree at Baruch?A degree in information systems.No, the degree was business administrationwith a major information systems.And you had to give the speech at Madison Square Garden.Yeah, that was pretty stupid too.
01:22:24Did you know you had to give a speech if you were validatory?No, I had to see there was a last piece of...cultural ignorance.Wow.But I was that much focused on, you know, doing what I told I was going to do.Wow.And KGB didn't get wind of it.I mean, there were journalists were there, parents were there, teachers were there that knew that I graduated in three years instead of four.
01:22:54and that I was 10 years older than the other graduatesand I spoke with a touch of an accent.Somebody should have, nobody, we were hanging out outsideand talking with teachers and some other fellow studentswas in, I think it was in June and it was warm outsideand not a single person asked me.And, you know, there was also a dangerfor the KGB to find out
01:23:26because they would have read me the riot act.And they never found out either.They didn't find out, no.A KGB spy was validatory enough of an American college,spoke at graduation.I applied for an entry in the book of world records,but I was denied.I forgot what the reason was.
01:23:44But it's true.There's nobody else who had done this.The most Guyanese women slept with in a year?That might have been the record?Yeah, well, one.Okay, that was enough.But so I was positive that they didn't know about the baby because they...Yeah, if they didn't get pissed about this, then...
01:24:03Oh, God, yeah.This is much more public than the baby.Or getting married to an illegal.Yeah.And this was all...I mean, it would have gotten me in serious trouble.Yeah.Not just like, okay, we're done with you.
01:24:17I don't know what they would have done to me since I was a German,but certainly they would have told Estasi to mistreatment.Yeah. So at this point, the 10 years that you're working there, you also had a relationship in East Germany. Is that correct?Yeah, I was a bigamist. Yeah, I was married in Germany.And you had a child there as well? Yes.And did you ever go back during that 10 years?Yes. I was back in Moscow every other year, four times altogether. And sometime in Moscow, and then I got to spend time with my family.and the first visit I fathered my son
01:25:00and this woman I actually loved moreI didn't love the Guyanese I just liked herand you know she would have been a good womanto spend the rest of my life withbut not like this deep love the German woman I lovedso and I was you know I don't know what the definition of a beingveganismist in terms, but I was married at the same time to two women in two different jurisdictions.So either one couldn't have convicted me of bigamy, right?
01:25:34Yeah.And so how do you do this? How do you get away with this?It's called compartmentalization.And that's why I told you before that I have a hard time translating back and forth between the two languages.English and German.Because they didn't talk to each other.The moment I came here, I rejected everything German and whatever.You know, and so it's still there, but it needs to be reawakened.
01:26:05So it takes a while when I'm back in Germany to speak fluent German.And I've been told that I now speak German with an American accent.Of course.Yeah.Wow.That's so interesting.And was it difficult going back to East Germany or going to Moscow in the time that you were in America?Like did you have to go out the same route to Mexico and then fly?
01:26:25No, no, but there was always one stop in between.It was either, they were mostly neutral countries.It was the cities I remember were Helsinki, Switzerland.Now I have a block.But, you know, town in Switzerland,city in Sweden, you know, in Vienna, Austria, like neutral countries where it was prettysafe to get in with a false passport because I traveled with nothing but false passports.And the reentry any of those times wasn't scary or they weren't close calls. You weren't caught.
01:27:13No, no, no, no. Reentry into the U.S.Let me just finish up. Let's say I stop in Helsinki.I meet an agent there and get another passport,which I would then fly into Moscow.They played it safe that way, okay?No direct, never a direct flight into Moscow once I even went with a ship.What's up guys? We're going to take a break really quick because you need to tell your story.On this show, I talked to some of the most interesting, fascinating people on the entire planet
01:27:50that have some of the craziest stories that you would not believe.believe. But you know what's actually crazier is that everyone has a story, including you that'swatching this right now. And the best way to find out about your story is through a little websitecalled myheritage.com. I went on the website and I was like, all right, let's see what this is allabout. Immediately, I was captivated. I filled in all of my personal information. I put in my parents,I put in all my siblings. I kind of just sent it off. And then immediately, my heritage startedmaking all of these crazy connections with other people that are related to me. Distant relativesshowed me my whole family history from how long we've been in Montreal and French
01:28:23Canada for. It showed documents from when we actually got over there. And here's the craziest thingthat I don't even know. My great, great, great, great, great, grandfather is fully Romanian.I'm a Romanian man. This is one of the most crazy things ever. I didn't expect to enjoy this asmuch as I did. And if you were interested in learning about your family history, I'm telling you,my heritage is the best way to go. They do a bunch of other features, too, that you might not evenrealize. You can go back through old photos and it can automatically colorize it. My heritageusing AI to where they can make the photos actually move so it looks like the person is really with us again.So if you're interested in tracing back your family's roots in the easiest, most effective way possible,
01:29:00I want you to scan the QR code on the screen right now or click the link in the description to start your 14-day free trial.Start piecing together your family history.Start finding out who you really are.Now let's get back to the show.Going back and forth, you eventually are in America for an extended period of time.Did you have emotional issues having a family in both places?difficult? No, no, not at all. I said, you know, I...Fully compartmentalized.
01:29:25Fully compartmentalized. And I can, I actually could prove that to me even while I wasoperational. So when, when I went back to Germany, I was the loving father and husbandfor a while, as long as I could. And then when I came back to the U.S., when I was in the Westand I had my shortwave radioand I could getAmerican news station.I was trying to figure outhow the Yankees were doing in the playoffs.
01:30:01Okay?So there were two personalities in meartificially constructed,but clearly they existed.And, you know,I wish at those dayssome neurologist had gotten a holdof me and examined my brain in some way
01:30:20because it might have been interesting.Yeah. Did you ever feelguilt in any way,you know, loving America and likingthe Yankees and enjoying American food andAmerican people, but simultaneously workingagainst the American interest andhanding over, you know, secrets of
01:30:36America? No.That's so interesting.No, that did not enter myconscience because I stillup untilI found outthe evil communism was,I still was convinced I was here for a reason
01:30:54and I was serving a good causeand I got my cake and eat it too.And you're also someone like you just saidthat once you say you're going to do something.Yeah.You follow through fully.Yeah. And I was not...If it wasn't for Chelsea's existence,
01:31:11I would have gone back to East Germanyor in Moscowand people that are,And I ask us, where would you think you'd be by now if you had gone back?I would be a miserable old coup in Russia.Because when the war came down, the KGB guy, there was no room for them.And my German wife already at one point said, you know, I would move to Russia with youway before there was any idea that, you know, she knew that I was.
01:31:48going to the United States and I was KGB.But they would have offered me to go to the Soviet Union because Soviet Union still existed.And I knew I would have been treated very well there.And then Russia, no more Soviet Union.I had no allegiance to Russia as a state and certainly not to the kind of state that Russia is today.So everything worked out.when was Putin trained as a KGB agent do you knowI think I don't know when but he came to
01:32:24Germany two years after I went to the US so that wasin 1980 I believe so and he probably got similar training as younot at all why no he wasn't a classand and he was trained to you know doteamwork and hehe turned out to beand based onone guy
01:32:49who is still alive and still livesin the D.C. areaUm, Oleg Kuloganhe wasat one point wasalsono he was he was in charge ofcounterintelligence for the director at S
01:33:05and at one pointin some capacitycapacityuhPutin reported tohim. And I met Oleg Kulugan and he told me that he was not impressive as an agent at all.Well, and I tell you, and that's an easy guess to make, because he was deployed into Dresden.That's a big, sizable city in Germany, but that's not where espionage action happened.
01:33:35And he was very good at languages. He spoke very good German.So if you deploy a good agent into a German-speaking country, you deploy him to Vienna, you deploy him to Berlin,and maybe in Switzerland, but certainly not in Dresden.There was no – so he was – and it's – there's a really good documentary about Putin that shows the path that he took.And that was my guess because he was similar to Herman.You know, he was liaison to the Stasi.He probably participated in the recruiting process.He may have taken some courier trips into West Germany.
01:34:27But he was fundamentally a bureaucrat, nobody.And when people ask me, so what Putin learned in the KGB,that made him so successful these days.I said, you learn her to lie.Did you see his interview with Tucker?Yeah, I cringed, I'm sorry.Why?Tucker Carlson made a fool of himself.
01:34:51In what way?Because he sat there like a college sophomore.Huh?He was not prepared.And he never called Putin on one of his lies.And Putin was lying through his teeth.particularly, you know, when he went into the history of Russia and all this.And I mean, Tucker Carlson was unprepared and it was just nuts.
01:35:24And I was interviewed a couple of times in the media.And I was a contrarian because all the journalists were very much impressed.And they said, I learned something.from the interview.Well, God forbid the information that they learned is available in public.For instance, that the reason that Ukraine has been fighting like crazy is that they hate Russians.Okay?And why did they hate Russians?
01:35:52Because of the famine that Stalin engineered is called Holodomor.They were all known in the public.And we have so many ignorant journalists and experts that,just need to open their mouth anytime they get a question so they retain their expertise,their expert status, I have no problem saying I don't know.I'm not an expert.I, you know, I make a lot of educated guesses, but they are based on some education.Interesting.
01:36:24Yeah, I didn't know what to make of it.I watched it and I thought that what Putin was saying, like I thought his demeanor was very,it was very stern, but it seemed very defensive at the same time.It seems like he was explaining a lot.Yeah, but he took over.He didn't allow any more questions.Yeah.You know, he took up all the time.
01:36:44And in hindsight, he's lying again.I was very disappointed in the interview.Well, yeah, he can't be happy because he has an image to keep amongst the Russians.And the image is that he is Superman.and he is the only person that stands in the way of the United States taking over Russia.And therefore, by logic, he would never, ever collude with an American president.He needs a boogeyman.Yeah.
01:37:22If you had interviewed Putin, what would you have asked him?I wouldn't interview Putin because I might fall out of a window.But assuming that I have bodyguards with meand I know that I'm safeLet me see whatFirst of all I would have corrected him on someI don't remember all the contentBut
01:37:49I would have asked himWhat made him turn away from communismOr was he ever a communistand does he really believe thatthe Western, that NATO is about to invade Russia?And how come he became a Christian?I have answers to all questions like that,but that would have possibly put him a little bit off balance.
01:38:23Why did he become a Christian?Because he's very, because he,One of his strengths is that he reads the Russian nation extremely well.And the Russian Orthodox Church never really died.It was oppressed by under Stalin.It was slightly liberated by Gorbachev.And there was like a need for more spirituality amongst the Russians.Russians are very spiritual people.
01:39:00So he figured, you know, he will play nice with the Orthodox Church and he becomes a Christian.You know, he's really good.And the other thing that he is doing so well, and I call this part of a national DNA,the Russian, all Russians know that Russia is going to be invaded at any moment becausethey were invaded throughout history.The moment Russia came into existence, the invasion started.started because Russia has a lot of resources, both in minerals and oil, but also Russian agriculture can be very, very productive.And so invaded by the Vikings from the north, by the Mongols from the east, by the Turks from the south, and then by Napoleon and Hitler.
01:39:49And so there's this inbuilt fear that we are under siege at all times.And throughout history, Russians had a yearning for a strong man to protect them.The Tsar, Lenin, Stalin, Gorbachev wasn't strong enough.And then his successor, Yeltsin, you know, was a fool.So Putin stepped into that.gap and started building himself as a strong man and he started when he becamepresident indirectly because he else he was appointed vice president because hehe he was very good organizationally and and played you know played the he he
01:40:42played the politics very well so that he was considered a non-threat if if hereplacesYeltsin as president becauseYeltsin had become an untenabledrunk and he was dyingso and the first thing thatPutin didhe attacked one of the
01:41:03one of thehe attacked the richest person in Russiaan oligarch I forgot his nameand heaccused him of corruptionhe put him in jailand thenPutin sold off
01:41:22the country sold offthis guy's companyI forgot the name of the companybut it was the biggestmost successful companyin those daysand that made him very popularbecause
01:41:35you knowthe Russians didn't like these rich peoplewhere they never didto begin withyeahthey took overyeah manyou give it to the oligarchs
01:41:43you're going to help uswithyou know if thethethe neighboring countries want to take us over,and he's built on that and built on that.And that's what keeps him in power.And that's what, even though the most recent election was pretty much a joke,
01:42:01but with regard to opinion polls, he's still coming out.And opinion polls that are done by Western organizations,he still is over 50%.Really?Yeah.Wow, I didn't know that.Yeah, no, even in this war, because he was very successful in blaming the West,yeah, we had, we, in the United States, there were politicians who stated publicly that
01:42:34Ukraine should join NATO.That was really bad because that gave Putin ammunition, right?Yeah.The other thing that he's milking very successfully, he says that Ukraine is ruled by Nazis.Well, where have we heard this before?First of all.East German Communist Act.Yes, if there is a kernel of truth, the same as in East Germany and West Germany, there's a kernel of truth, a lie is much easier to sell.
01:43:08Okay.Ukraine, during World War II, there were quite a few Nazis and they cooperated with the Germans.A lot of warden's guards at the concentration camps were Ukrainians.It was a Nazi organization that was led by one Stepan Bandera.and it was about 10 years agoand the Ukrainian governmentthe post office was the governmentissued commemorative stamps for Stepan Bandera
01:43:46for his 100th birthdayHmmThat's not a good lookNot a good lookAnd there are Nazis in Ukraine todayThey are not in they're not governingBut there's a partyThat is allowed to exist
01:44:00So againyou know, this is a huge argument.And none of that's really, this is really like discussed by experts and our highly paidjournalists, but nobody ever believes a washed up ex-KGB agent.I want to know ultimately how you were able to pull computer code from the United Statesand from corporations of the United Statesand send it to Russiaand what exactly were the steps
01:44:35that you did to acquire the information?And then ultimately I would like to knowhow you were compromisedand how someone gave up your informationthat led to the FBI finding out about you.You forget to ask one questionhow I managed to resign from the KGB, right?Well, that's, after you get caught,
01:44:53I want to know why you're not dead.That's the main question.But we're not there just yet.Okay, all right.But the first thing is,how did you actually procure code?I know in the 60 Minutes interviewthere was a conversation that you got
01:45:06code from IBM, which youchose not to speak on.I neversaid IBM. You never said IBM.And I will not deny or confirm that.Fair enough.But how did youget that information and what was your process
01:45:22to getting computer code?So in my last visit to Moscowwas the first time that theyasked me to do a little bit ofindustrial espionage. I met somebody from a different department, not foreign policy, blah, blah, blah,and he admitted that, you know, the Soviet Union is buying technologically. Can you find a wayto get your hands on technology, hardware, software, whatever it is, that is on the do not exportlist, right? Hardware, I wouldn't know how to get it, you know, go to the store and whatever you
01:45:55can buy in the store, the diplomats could buy, right?softwareyeah well I had access totocodethatwas on the mainframe and not well protectedunfortunately it was
01:46:15execution type codein other words it was written inmachine languageit wasn't like written inKobol or Fortran or any one of those languagesthat you can read and understandnow experts canreverse engineer
01:46:29machine languageand sothe one programthat I thought was worthstealing was a softwarethat is still in use todaythat isthat ran
01:46:46onlineinteractions via terminalsvia the mainframeandthat was very very popularin those daysso I figuredokay, I'm going to get that.
01:47:01It was awkward, let's put it this way.I had to stay overtime.There was no way to get this out electronically.I had to print the code, the source code.And this is at your job at MetLife.Yeah.And so I printed it.I forgot how many pages, maybe it was 20 pages or so.
01:47:25and then I photographed the pagesand then handed over the undeveloped cartridgeand a dead drop.That was it.Again, the system wasn't very well secured.I shouldn't have been able to do thateven though I am reasonably certainthat they couldn't use that software
01:47:48because this was particularly used to runcompanies, American companies,all kinds of companies, like, you know, but that were organized based on, you know,how a company needs to be organized to be successful in capitalism.So, you know, but maybe somebody, you know, the, somebody back in Moscow claimed that,oh, look, what we got, and then they handed to the people who should use it and they said,we can't use it.Really?
01:48:17I'm just guessing.This is not a, was that the most valuable thing that you had procured?No, I think the most valuable thing was.profiles of people thatmight be good targets for recruitmentparticularly while I was incollege, you know, college students who eventuallymight wind up in government, college students
01:48:42who also have certain weaknesses.Maybe they want to get rich.But more importantly, college students whoare attached to a,cause you know you could recruit them not communism wasn't a good flag under which to recruit anymorethat there was much earlier before when the one world war two ended 50s 60s yeah that went out thewindow but you know you can recruit under false flag saying you know you you want to get informationto Israel or or something you have like radical peace
01:49:25And so you are working with an international organization for peace and, you know, those kinds of people.Typically, there's an acronym that we use in intelligence that stands for the reason that somebody is recruitable.Mice, money, ideology, corruption.And...Extortion?Yeah, you're right.And ideology is really...And thank you for completing that.
01:50:08Ideology was preferred.Yeah.Particularly extortion goes only so far.Money, somebody else can pay more.And corruption, yeah.It's not dependable.Not exactly right.ideology, like, that's tough to break, particularly if it's very strong. So I profiled
01:50:32maybe a dozen candidates, but they never told me. They never even once told me that,yeah, that was not even hinting at the individual, but I was never congratulated for a jobwell done. I got the second highest decoration of the Soviet Union, but that was for like,whatever.But never oncedid I get feedback,oh, this was well done.So hypothetically, how would that work?
01:50:59You would profile the college studentssay this person has the right ideologyand we can potentially use themas an asset.And then you would hand over that informationto the KGB.At your 815 on Thursday,they would...
01:51:12No, no, this would be...Are you doing it through a dead drop?Secret writing.Secret writing.Right.How would that transfer?Through regular mail.There's some type of encryption.
01:51:23The personal information as the name and address and all that, yeah, that would be encrypted.And then they would receive it, and then they would send a diplomat or some other type of spy to then go and become familiar with them?It's quite likely that the recruitment was done by diplomats because I was never asked to recruit.Right. I imagine they want a compartmental.That is way, yeah, it's compartmentalized.There's three individuals involved.is the spotter, I was a spotter, then there's a recruiter, and then there's the handler that we don't know one another,and the handler doesn't know who spotted in the process, he just gets assigned.
01:52:06Assigned.That new agent.So the recruiter would go to a college student that's now looking like they're going to have a position in politics and say, hey.And befriend them in some way.Learn their interests, learn what they like, measure their time.temperament. Let's say they go, they, they play chess at the Manhattan chess club and they own,you know, you find ways to make friends if you know what the other person is doing. I, I had toactually, as part of my training, befriend some people where I was pointed out, you know, make a
01:52:39friend of this person. I had to even find out where she worked initially. What do you mean?Well, somebody pointed out a person who came,entered the subway at a certain spot,and she entered the subway again.So the next time I was waiting for her to exit the subwayand then found out she worked at a library.And so eventually I found a way to have an excuse to talkor about books, you know.
01:53:18Interesting.Yeah.So, yeah, you've got to be pretty inventive.And this is one of the things that I'm pretty sure they teach when they teach classesand how to be a spy at that end.Right.Now, I understand, like, American spies, for example, they might be in Afghanistan or Iraq,and they have a lot to offer to someone that they would potentially recruit, you know, an operative.
01:53:42They could say, oh, your child is sick.Yeah.We can get the medical treatment in America.Oh, you love sports.We can get you a sign jersey from your favorite football team.There's things that Americans can offer to countries that maybe have lower GDP or less infrastructure.What can you offer to a college student in America?Like, money is only going to go so far.
01:54:01If you're at Columbia or you're at some Ivy League school in New York City, money is not as important.Ideology seems like the most important thing.Oh, yeah.What would be the ideology that I would have that would make me flip against America?Again, not necessarily against America.Just talk about peace nix.There were like, at one time, there were a lot of demonstrationsagainst nuclear weapons.
01:54:23Okay?So, and if you say, well, you know, you're working for an organizationthat wants to make sure that at minimum there will be a nuclear balanceor that nuclear weapons will be prohibited.It needs to be a worldwide movement.That might work.You know, if you're really inveterate with regard to your cause,you will go to many lengths.
01:54:53Some people, some spies, particularly the ones that gave away the atomic secret,they weren't necessarily pro-soviet.Some of them wanted the nuclear balance established.So I tell you one thing, this has been,told me by a friend of mine who at one pointwas in charge of the behavioral division of the FBI.And he wrote a couple of books.He's very, very good.
01:55:27He's an amateur psychologist, but better than most trained psychologists.And he will tell you, and he also turned a couple of GRU agentswhen he was counterintelligence.GRU is the most capable intelligence service in Russia.it's military intelligence.And he says, ultimately, and you actually hinted at thatwhen we talk about Americans in other countries,ultimately everybody will make decisions
01:55:56that they believe are good for themor the people they care about.Now, for some individuals it might be a whole nation,but for most everybody it's like meor maybe my family first and then me,and maybe some friends, but that's it.And so that's what you need to figure out when you're recruiting.I have never been trained to recruit.
01:56:23I've never thought about it.This is just the kind of stuff that you learn over timewhen you interact with a lot of ex-spokes, you know.Would the recruiter or the handler, to your knowledge,disclose that they were KGB?Or would they say, oh, we're part of a, you know,denuclearization committee.Well, it depends. It depends upon the individual. False flag is entirely appropriate and it's used probably quite frequently.
01:56:53You know, KGB, KGB, in those days, communism wasn't as romantically admired as it is amongst some college student nowadays.So, you know, if you're a Cuban recruiter and you recruit some, you know, people with a, you know, whose parents fled Castro and they're not fighting with their parents and they like communism, you can disclose where you're coming from, sure.Hmm.It all depends. It's very individual.Interesting.So now you do this for 10 years.88 comes around.you see some red paint
01:57:40on the ground in front of the subway?Yeah, yeah.What is that about?It's not on the ground.It was on a support beam, a steel support beam,for the elevated seven train in Woodside Queens.And why is seeing red paint on the subway?Why is that significant?
01:57:55Well, we had a system of signals, very basic signals.And they were.I could put some signals someplace.And the signal was to be putwhere the individual passes by the spot on a daily basisso they don't have to go out of the way to look for a signal.For instance, one of my signals would bewhen I come back to the U.S. arrived in the country.
01:58:22That was another chalk mark, mostly chalk marks.Horizontal, vertical, cross,and it was very basic.Nothing where you have to stand in front of itand make a sign.you have to be able to do this real quick.And the one signal that was not a chalk mark was a red dotthat meant for me to like, not miss it.
01:58:50That was a danger signal.And we had a danger protocol, emergency protocol.If there was danger, I could also set that signal myselfif I have strong reason to believe that I'm about to be arrested,I got to run.So I set the signal myself, right?But at this case, they said it.Somehow, and neither the FBI nor I have an understanding
01:59:26what made them believe that I'm in danger.They were very, very skittish with regard to havingsomebody like me arrested, not because they cared so much about me, but because if I get arrested,now they have to bend over backwards to get me back. Because if they don't get me back,they don't get another one to take that job. And that getting back is pretty awkward. You know,you have to set somebody up, you have to put him in jail, then you negotiate for an exchange. AndIt could take a long time and it's a pain in the neck.So if they don't get you back, why can't they get someone else to take your role?
02:00:12Well, I tell you why.One of the reasons I signed up, even though I knew there was a good chance I would wind up in jail,but I also knew that they would get me out because there was some information that it was out in the public,that there were exchanges.For instance, Rudolf Abel, the nuclear spy.and Gary Powers, a U-2 pilot.And I had some training in Moscow by two members of the Rosenberg expiringthat managed to flee, actually, the U.S.,
02:00:52but then were redeployed in England.They were Mono and Morris Cohen.And they were redeployed in Englandand then wound up in jail.spent I think eight years in jail and they got them out.So I knew they would eventually get me out and I was reasonably sure as long as I have something to read I could handle jail because I spent two years in Moscow with almost no social interaction.And as a child I didn't have any playmates close by so I played a lot by myself.So that is
02:01:36So I knew that they would get me outAnd so if there's a question mark about thisYou're not joining and the next guy is not joiningYeah, rightAgain, it's about trustWe will get you outI need to trust you for me to take that riskAnd the risk was not minimal
02:01:59And you knowThe risk wasenhanced by my behavior, right?And were you receiving KGB money the whole time?No, not at all.You know, I received one infusion of KGB moneyafter two years when I had not enough moneyto finance my trip back to Moscow.
02:02:27And after that, I was completely independent.So I get the incentive for the first year, right?So a novel, you get to do something interesting, you get to be a spy in America.It's a huge thrill.You get to serve a country that you enjoy.But by year 10, there's no major compensation.Like, what is the incentive for you by year 8, 9, 10 to keep on going and to keep on risking your life and to keep on risking your freedom?Discipline, not breaking the promise and still knowing that I was serving a good cause.
02:03:01and I didn't, you know what, in those days I didn't think about it very deeply.I was doing a job.I was doing a job.And that job also eventually promised for me to have a good life when I was done.I think I already told you that there were a lot of promises.You'd be taken care of it.And then I could take care of my family.And they took very good care of my family.
02:03:31My German wife didn't have to go to work.And she drove the most expensive car, and she didn't have to wait for it.And twice, she and our son were on vacation at the Black Sea with a cook and a chauffeur.I see.Your family's taken care of.It's a part of your duty.Absolutely.So I was looking forward to.
02:04:01a real good life with a woman that I still loved.We were still young enough to have another child.And, you know, I would have been on cloud,annoying.That was German.I caught you.Yeah, you did.I know you're German now.
02:04:17I got you.You did.You know how else you can catch me?Could have caught me and I didn't find it out until I watched the movie in gloriousbastards.How do you count on fingers?Show me.one two
02:04:31three four fiveI can't do thethis is toothis is too awkwardone twothat's so funnyno one twothree
02:04:38yeahthat's funnythis is how my dad countsyeahexactly soor he'll sayA to Zyeah
02:04:47yeahbut youcaught me ninewhatwhat wouldthat you're incentiveI was on cloud ninefor sure
02:04:55and you're gonna goright offinto the sunsetabsolutelyI mean, it couldn't have been any better based on what I knew when I made the decision to stay here.And that's when we want to get back to the red dot.Exactly.Get out of the country because we have reason to believe that you're going to be arrested.
02:05:21And I just told you what expected me over there if I go back.Pretty good.And what was holding me here?Not the love of the country, not my salary, because I would have been better off over there.are still not highly paid.So you look at this rationally,this is all the good stuff is over thereand who, what's over here?
02:05:41Your baby that you love?Chelsea.That's it.Not even my job, not even my colleagues, Chelsea.And my problem wasI would have been somewhat comfortableleaving if I had known a wayto support her,
02:06:01financial her and her mother.because mom had only four years of schooling.And she did some word processing,but the two of them would have lived in poverty.How old was Chelsea in 88?She was 18 months old at that time.And I was just, I knew that she would have grown up in poverty,possibly abject poverty.
02:06:29And I couldn't find a way to like, you know,I couldn't tell the KGB to help me with money to shove it that way.They would have, like, punished me for that.You know, I wasn't supposed to have done all this.They don't give a shit to you the kid.No, no, absolutely not.Yeah, there wouldn't have been any operational value in that, right?So, and there was no other way that I could imagine.
02:06:54Even if I could have wired money, I didn't have enough than my German wife would have found out.So I was still trying to figure this.out and was playing for time.And how long did you have?When you saw that dot, were you immediately mind racing?Mind racing, yeah, I ignored it because I wasn't ready to make a decision.So I went right back to work.I was on my way to work.
02:07:18I was on my way to work.I went to work.And that day, I wasn't very productive.The entire week, I wasn't very productive.I was like, mind was racing here.And there was no solution.My frontal lobe was working really hard, no solution.And I'm sure you were thinking to yourself, did I get caught?
02:07:38Was I sloppy?Did someone find out?Was I followed?No, that I didn't do, but I took measures to at least find out whether the KGB was right.So surveillance detection.and I had marks in my apartmentwhere I could find outwhether somebody actually searched the apartment
02:08:04both my then wife and Iworkedso in the morning the apartment was emptyand it wasn't a proverbialhair over the doorI had achest of drawers that had an overAnd, you know, overhang means like you have something like this, and the real chest starts over there.
02:08:35And if you were standing in front of it, you cannot see the overhang.And if you open it, oops.It moves.Now, how far do I close it?Because I measured how.It was eight millimeters.Every time I went back home, that's the first thing I did.Really?
02:08:55I wasn't taught that either.I invented that.So you would put on your tie, you'd put on your suit,you'd make sure that the drawer was 8 millimeters.That's correct.And you'd go to work.Yeah.And you'd come home, you'd say hi to your wife,
02:09:05you'd say how to your baby.And then make sure that I'd take the measurement,and if it's 8 millimeters, it was 8 millimeters.Also, you know, surveillance detection.And one thing that I was taught,I mailed a letter to me.from some address somewhere in Manhattan.And if, and I don't know if they still do it,
02:09:36but in those days, when letters were opened,it was done by machine.And when I, when I closed the letter,I left about an inch without the glue.So when the machines open this and then they reclose it.They would close it all the way.All the way.Very good.
02:09:55you're spy material.Maybe I am.Maybe you are.Nobody ever knows.We call this world the world of mirrorsbecause nobody knows what's going on.And I did that too,and I was reasonably sure
02:10:13that the FBI is not after me,but I was concerned with,if I stay, and at this point I stillhadn't made the decision, I was concernedthat the KGB would considerthis defection and I did know that they don't treat defectors very nicely. So there was stillthis everything good here and still a lot of danger over there. And I was able to play for timebecause at one time I had an accident on my bike where I injured my shoulder and I couldn't do
02:10:48anything. I couldn't write a letter and I couldn't even write down the numbers for the radiocram and when I got healthy again I informed them you know was out for four weeks because I wasmy my my arm was in a sling sling yeah and so so I had some time to stall but I think aboutthree weeks into my stalling they wanted to figure out you know what's what's with this guyis he in a hospital is he's still operational can we find them and soSo one guy showed up in the morning on the subway.They knew where I was how I went to work.It was still dark.
02:11:32It was early December.It was dark.I'm waiting for the train.And this guy comes up to me from my right.And I still remember a short guy with a black trench coat.And he whispers into my ear with a Russian, heavy Russian accent.You got to come home.What age you did?
02:11:49Okay.And then he walked.So now I go back.I go to work again, and again, I got nothing done.But now it was time to make a decision because they knew that I knew that they know.It was clarity that I knew that there was a command of the order to come back.And when you went home every day, were you seeing Jelsea?Yeah.
02:12:20And she was talking at this point, she was walking around?I don't know.She was babbling a little bit.She wasn't a talker, but she was walking, sure.Could she say Dada?Yeah.Oh, sure, yeah.And that was a sweet word, yeah.
02:12:33And did it melt you?Like, holding her in your apartment and you would look in her eyes knowing they might kill me.You're going to make me cry.Yeah, that was what I now call a highly unexpected, massive attack of unconditional love.I didn't know unconditional loveprior to that at allyou know this sacrificial type lovethat no matter whether you love me back or not
02:13:02whether I'm in danger or notyou know I love you I do whatever it takesand there's some people who throw themselvesin front of a vehicle to save the child rightso something like thatattacked meso anyway I did one more thingthey called me for a dead drop operation
02:13:22because what they didn't know is whether I had the moneyor the passport because I hadI had two Canadianone Canadian driver's license and one Canadian passporthidden someplace butand actually it was still there when Iwent to the with the FBIto it was still there but they didn't know
02:13:42maybe they they didn't know that I waswas possible for meto go to Canadathat's where it was supposed to goand so they called me for the drop operationnow that the guy had talked to me rightand and that drop operation was the only one that was at nightit was in a spot in a park on Staten Island
02:14:06it was a spot that I found it was easy to findand I was always told my descriptions were phenomenalthere's no problem finding a spotso I get thereI parked the cara little bit awayI drove my carand I go to where the
02:14:25the signal was thatyou know go and get the containerI read the signalyes there I goI had a flashlightthat was lateand in the dayit was dark and it was in December
02:14:40there was nobody in the parkso I go to the spotthere was a tree that hollow treeat the bottomreally easy to findyou can't miss itand I even gave tohow many feet, roughly how many feet
02:14:52from the entrance to the parkon the left side.And he made this...So he put something someplaceor he stole what he had.Either way. But I wouldn't even think Steelethat came afterwards.So I'm going there and there's no oil can
02:15:09and I'm making a double takeand now I turn the flashlight on and go aroundand maybe he sort of like missed.He threw it away and he missed the spotand it's like spent aboutand I go a little furthernothing spent about maybe 10 minutesI walk out of there
02:15:26and that's when my subconsciousmade a spontaneous decisionit was not based on any logic I'm stayingit'sit's just spiritualgut instincttotally irrationalfired
02:15:48nourished by thisunconditional loveand from then onI was on my wayto face the musicwhatever was going to comeI made sure thatI wasn't in the same spot
02:16:06at the same timeI changed my route to workand when I leftso as to not be an easy targetfor an assassinationis that the first momentyou ever made a decisionthat was spiritual and not rational
02:16:20well the otherswere not spiritual, but they wererational because they were based on ego.Yeah, sure. Yeah, the first one.You could justify it. But this one is hard to justify.Not justifiable by logic.As a matter of fact, I could have rationalizedthis away. Let's say
02:16:42another person or another me could have said,okay, if I stay here and there's a good chanceto KGB is right, I'm no good for.for Chelsea,and just used my other daughter's name.I wouldn't be no good in jail for Chelsea either,so I might as well leavebecause otherwise we're both damaged, right?
02:17:10But I didn't.It didn't even occur to me.I didn't think that way.Yeah, it was totally irrational,and I'm so gladthat my subconsciouseventually took over because it came this this thought is that is not based on logic that comes fromback here and it wasn't fear it was the exact opposite so pure love yeah what's up guys we're
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02:20:20sent directly to your door immediately.Now let's get back to the show.So now that you've made a commitment, effectively, to defect,what was the process of not getting murdered by the KGV?Yeah, I didn't defect, I told you.A defection would have meant to say hello to the FBI.I resigned.Fair.
02:20:40And I had another inspiration that came out of thin air.I say, okay, how about, you know, if I have contracted HIV AIDS?Sounds like a good idea, because in those days, AIDS was a death sentence.And so I sat down and wrote my last letter in secret writing, and I told him,I understand that I'm in danger, but the danger I'm faced right now may be even bigger.I have contracted HIV AIDS.And to make it really credible, I told him how.I contracted HIV AIDS because in those days it was mostly homosexuals and drug addicts.
02:21:24So I had this one female friend who came before the one that I married and she told me thatshe she had a boyfriend who was a drug addict and then eventually she shared with me that he hadhad come down with AIDS.Now she was possibly a carrier,and this is how I told him, this is probably how I got it.So there was inspiration, but there was also some thinking involved.So to make it credible, and they had no reasonto not believe that story because they knew, again,
02:22:03everything that was good for me was over there.And then staying back, why?You didn't know about the baby.So they, and I found this many years laterwhen my son told me that I asked him also to hand over the money that was on my account,the dollars to my German wife.Apparently she got about half of it.Somebody else pocketed the money, you know that.
02:22:29In espionage, you know, it's cash, right?There's no trace.You know, I gave it to her.She doesn't know how much she's supposed to get, so I pocket the rest of it.That's crazy.Yeah.So it worked.And I knew that they had read the letter when they stopped sending signals over shortwave.
02:22:56You would log on at 815.No, I wouldn't log on.It would just, yeah, I would like listen to it.There's a signal that they sent.This was the signal that this is for you, okay?I say log on is modern speak.Yeah, but I didn't listen to it anymore.And then when they stopped transmitting,
02:23:16I threw the radio in the Hudson River.How did that feel?I feel pretty good with regard to getting rid of the KGBbecause I knew I was rid of them.And you were no longer afraid that they would come after youor that they would, because even if you had HIV,you might be a risk.No, I was still concerned.
02:23:35I was still concerned.But like after three months,I was reasonably certain that, you know, I'm home free.And I told Chelsea's mother, who had been asking if we could buy a house,I said, we're now going to buy a house,we're now going to save some money within a year.And then I moved to the suburbs, had another child,and started my version of the American dream.
02:24:03But now the FBI is on to you.Not yet.I had tothat took anotherit tooknine yearsafter my resignationso it was in
02:24:1788 plus 9 is 97when theyintroduced themselvesthey heard about mein 95and then they spenttwo yearswatching me
02:24:34the reason they did thatall they knowabout me that I was a highly trained agent because I had survived that many years without beingdetected. And they got a tip through MI6. Yeah, tip through MI6. That there's this guy Barski in New Yorkyou should look after. And I could, I could still be active. They didn't know that I wasGerman, for instance. I could be Russian and still being loyal to Russia. And there was a lot ofparanoia amongst the FBI and CIA because the moles hadn't been caught yet. Okay. And or as timepassed on, there could be another mole. And they knew that there were moles. They just didn't know who.
02:25:18Yeah, they figured them, because there were some odd things that happened that you couldn'texplain. Anyway, so they were very, very cautious because if they got too close to me,they knew that I would find that out and flee.And so you were never privy to them spying on you for those two or three years?No, two years it was.I was out of the habit of checking.I was home free.I forgot really that I had completely forgotten that I was once a spy.
02:25:51I was mom.I was dad, mom, two children.Great job, house in the country in Pennsylvania.And more promotions coming.At one point I made with bonus 300.thousand dollars a year and that was like 12 years ago.Mm-hmm.So when does the FBI introduce themselves?
02:26:10When?I said it was nine years.97 I think you said.And it was I think in the fall.I was commuting from New Jersey into Pennsylvania and I had to cross the DelawareRiver and there was a toll gate there.I think it was a quarter or maybe two but you had to pretty much stop.and that's where they had positioned
02:26:36to state trooper that they rentedjust to stop meand he told meroutine stopwhich he was pull overand then he walks over thereand he says could youplease step out of the vehicle
02:26:52and so the fact that I did notnotice right away thatthis was notroutineroutine becauseand that indicates that I wasn't as sharpanymore I wasn't as watchful anymorebecause normally routine stopped in license and
02:27:13registration right so I stepped out notthinking anything and then I see thisother man coming from my rightlike the same side the KGB came on the subwaycoincidentally and he approached meand flipped openthis idea and I knew immediately what that was.And the feedback from him
02:27:37that after we were all done with the interrogationor the interview, whatever you want to call it,it wasn't interrogation.But he was the lead agent on that case.He told me my face went white as the driven snow.And I understand why,because at that moment,my past that I had forgotten came rushing back into my brain and I knew that myself and my beloved
02:28:10family was in danger now.Yeah, that was an interesting moment.And then he asked me to step into, there was a vehicle parked and, you know, go step in.He said FBI, we would like to have a talk with you.and they had a couple of props to just in case they need to intimidate mehis partner was sitting in the back seat and I was going in the backseatand he had a gun strapped to his ankle visibly strapped to his ankleso I could see it I it's serious right he didn't have to do that for me
02:28:51because I already knew it was seriousand then I caught myself and the first question Iasked, so am I under arrest?And Riley, the driver, the lead agent, he turned around and he said, no.And this may not be the worst day of your life.Okay, there's a little glimmer of hope.So now I instinctively knew that I had to like him.I'm sorry, they had to like me.
02:29:29because you treat people differently when you like them instinctively.So I used what I bragged about before my weird sense of humorand I asked them, so what took you so long?And I saw they couldn't suppress a smile.So they took me to a motel about 10 miles northand I just south of Stardsburg, Pennsylvania.And they had rented an entire wing of an elephantshaped motel and more props at both ends there was an arm guard I'm with a with a
02:30:11with a Kalashnikov type machine gun made you feel at home yeah and and they they had mein the middle room and as I walk into that room there were more props there were somesome big cardboard signswith bits and pieces of informationlike one addressthat I used to send letters toand my cover nameand immediately
02:30:41I noticed that they didn't know much of anythingbecause it was old informationyou knowsoand then I took the initiativeI told himI understand what position I'm inhere and I know that the only way that I can, me and my family can get away from this situation
02:31:05with the least amount of damage if I cooperate fully and I absolutely 100% intend to do so.And then we talked for a couple of hours and first they let me call the wife and tell her thatI'd be late because something at work or whatever.and so after two hours of interviewingthey said now you can go homeokayand not before they introduced me to the headof the sizable surveillance group
02:31:43that was there with armed peoplewho was very sternly said to meand if you think you can runwe have every intersection coveredand he didn't have tosay that where was I going to run?But they didn't know any of that, right?But I knew that any attempt,
02:32:04I possibly could have escaped through the back.I had a hatch door into the basement.I possibly could have, I don't know if they would have stationed somebody in the dark back thereand I could have wandered through behind me was nothing but way.wasteland, but no.I don't remember if I slept well.I probably didn't.And then I spent about six weeks highly anxious because there was no promises made.
02:32:40When I made my statement, there was nothing came back.They didn't say, oh, if you cooperate, blah, blah, blah.So we spent six weeks.I was being asked about everything that I could possibly remember.including my life, my childhood.You know, the agents that I worked with described them.I couldn't give away any secret,but what I, based on what they told me,
02:33:05what I told them was very valuablebecause it gave them information about how the KGB operated.And as you know, that the Russian intelligence services,who were they trained by?You know, whatever KGB was handed down to,to the Russian intelligenceand somein those days
02:33:29some of thoseRussian intelligence agents wereex KGB anywayso it was very valuableto them and alsoknowing that there wasI wasn't running an agentit's also good because
02:33:42you knowif you if you'redealing with a negativeand the negative has provento not exist that's goodso and I had topass a light detector testthat was an absolute rule
02:33:57andthat was an interesting testyou know the way they depictlight detectorpolygraphsin the movies is absolutely wrongyou know you don't have alight in your face
02:34:13you don't have somebody asking youaggressively questionsso this is what it wasthe interrogator was sittingbehind mehe he wasboth of us werewhispering
02:34:28the only answers I could givewere yes and noand hewe ran a testso I knew all theall the questions at a timeand thenwe went through this thing
02:34:46and there was no light in my faceit was like all very very calmand I was nervousbecause I knew I was goingand tell the truth.And so yes, no, yes, no, yes, no.He disappeared into a back room and looked at the printouts.He came back and said, I'm sorry, you missed one question.
02:35:08Many years later, it occurred to me that was a control question, and I tell you why.I went back and forth.I said, I honestly answered, I said, yeah, but look here, this is a spike,something wrong.And I thought about the question, and then I said,that's a double negativemaybe that's the reasonand you didn't say yes well you
02:35:32need to come back and answer the same questionagainphrased as a positiveand I passed itand Ionce spoke at an eventwhere polygrapherswere present
02:35:46they have an organizationwhere they meet them once a yearand I asked some of them and they saidyeah it was a controlled questionhe had to be absolutely sure that when there was movement,there was a good reason for the movement, okay?So, and when I passed that question,they told me that there's a path to getting a green card
02:36:14that was certain and possibly citizenship.So I was out of the dungeon.I was, I never said,I never spent a minute in jail.I spent a minute in jail in Dublin as a tourist,and I have a picture with bars in front of my face.But, you know, I'm German, but I think I may be half Irish.You know, I got so lucky in many respects,
02:36:45and I'm blessed that I can be able to,that I'm able to talk to you today.and laugh about a bunch of things.So ever since that momentwhere you took the polygraph, you passed,and you sort of cooperated with the FBIand told them what you knew and you were honest,was there any other recourse from that moment
02:37:04from your time with the KGB?Were you able just to live a normal or semi-normal life after that?Well, they knew that I was dead.I lived a normal life.And when I...Well, there wasn't KGB anymore.When I went back to Germany after I got my citizenship,I was still not a public figure.
02:37:28The 60 Minutes interview came after that.And everybody thought it was okay for me to go back to Germany.I was completely out of danger.I was dead, officially dead.And even today, the Social Security Register or whatever you call this,I think they call it Stunders-Ampton.and there's no translation.It's vital records.
02:37:53They have Albrecht Dittrich, that's my German name,has passed away in 1988.And so a rather tasteless joke I once madewas that I'd hold the record of resurrections.You know, we resurrected Jack Barski.The German actually showed up again.And a while ago when Chad GPT wasn't really as good as it is now,So a friend of mine had it write a biography of me
02:38:21and it had me pass away 10 years ago.So I'm still here.Three times?Three times.You're like a cat?It's a tasteless joke.I won't do it again.I like it.
02:38:33So did they told your mother and your German wife that you had passed away?After the war came down and I still didn't come home,she wanted to know what happened.And she asked a bunch of East German officials,and wrote a letter to Gorbachev and she passed away without knowing what happened to me.Not guilty with an explanation because now I remember when she passed away, I was still not legal in the United States and I was working with documents that were illegally obtained.And so if I, and I didn't have a passport either, so if I let her know that I'm still alive,that somehow could cause me a lot of trouble in my family.
02:39:30So I didn't.Quite frankly, I was also a coward.It was really, it was real tough to think about my mother, who I had,who I had lied to and left because I was our golden boy.You know, her other son wasn't.I was also afraid of meeting my son Matthias.Chelsea forced that.She brought him to the U.S.
02:40:09And then I knew he was here, but he didn't want to see me,but she arranged, she was pretty clever.they met in a restaurant about a five-minute drive from where my house wasand she calls me hey Matias is here want to come see himand she tells me and I don't remember thatprobably myI don't want to remember thatshe said I hung up the phone didn't say a word
02:40:39so she called again so thenyou know one of the worst things thatI can imagineit's being acknowledgedto be a cowardyou know likelike being irresponsibleand being a weasel
02:40:57and whatever all these badcharacteristicsso I had to goso I still rememberthey were waitingjust by the receptionand he saw meand for like a half a minute
02:41:13he looked at me like thisand then we had dinnerand we started talkingand the talk went really well and he came to the house and that's how thebig that was the beginning of the reunion of the family not with his motherobviously that wouldn't have worked I spoke with her with his mother onceon the telephone when I was in Germany and she actually said she would want tomeet me but she changed her mind she was
02:41:48deeply wounded and had never had a liaison with another man.Did you understand her position?Absolutely, of course.You know, I'm the last communication I had with her when I left for my last visit to Germany,I said pretty soon it's going to be up, I'm going to be home.We're going to live a wonderful life.That was the promise.I broke it.
02:42:19If people ask me, anything that I regret is betraying the love that I had for her.There's no two ways around it.And leaving my son alone, you can rationalize as much as you want.I put myself in that position by my first decision that was,I didn't have enough information to make a good decision,and I didn't have a mentor to make a good decision.And so, but I got to admit that caused me to hurt somebody deeply.Matthias recovered nicely.
02:43:00He calls me dad.Does he look like you?No, he looks more like his grandfather, actually.My first son, who I didn't betray in the same way,but he is older.He looks like me and quite a bit like me.He was a one-night stand, a result of a one-night stand.And I did what I had to do, paid child support,
02:43:42and my mother continued paying it.It was silly, you know.It was a girl who threw herself at me.You know, she did.We walked out of a, you know, a student club,and she grabbed my hand and squeezed it.How do you say no to that?And he was raised in East Germany as well?
02:44:09Yeah, and he, this turned out really well.This lady married a man who was a really,really good father to Genta, that's his name.Did he know that Matthias was his half-brother?He found out. Chelsea made sure that the family got all united.There's a picture of us when I visited Germany where the four of us, wait a minute,one, two, three, four, five of us, you know, standing in front of a train,oncoming train when they say goodbye to me.
02:44:45Wow.Yeah, that part ended reasonably well.I wish I had time and money to visit Germany more often,but right now I have neither.It'll come.What does Matthias do now?He runs a drugstore.Now in Germany, they don't have these huge chains.
02:45:07They're all smallish.He and his wife run a drugstore.He has a, without knowing that his father studied chemistry,he studied chemistryand he has a doctoratefrom an Ivy League type organizationthe Max Planck Institutevery smart guy
02:45:26but he decidedhe didn't like the politics in academiayou know the wrangling for positionso he went smallyou knowhe lives the life of a petty bourgeoisyou know house in the countrydecent job
02:45:46loves he had I have onegrandchild a beautifulsuper smart granddaughter I meanthe genesare perpetuatingthemselves because my13 year old is alsoshe's smarter than me
02:46:02I know thisshe hasamong other things she hasperfect memoryshe can look at a sectionthe written section and not read it and know what's in it, that kind of thing.Wow.Yeah.
02:46:20And that's your granddaughter or your daughter?No, that's my daughter.My granddaughter is arguably maybe even smarter.I mean, yeah, we, I don't know where there comes from in my family.My mother was pretty smart, but none of the folks that I interacted with were genius level.And so I've been measured genius whoopty-do.That's not a big deal.There's a lot of us.
02:46:42But when it gets to the next level, then you're...say, whoa.That's impressive.Wow.Yeah.Now, when the 60 Minutes interview came out, I understand that you lost your job.Yeah.I was the next day, it was on a Sunday.
02:46:58And I had informed senior management that there would be an interview with me.And one of the fellow did Chief Operating Office, I said, oh, wow, this is really great.So that didn't seem to be a problem, but I was concerned.And it came from a source that I had not taken into consideration, the board of directors.They were very much concerned with having had an ex-KGB agent in their ranksand didn't know about it, that their background check didn't catch it.So they were worried about, and this was a company that worked in the electric energy sectorwith high security requirements.
02:47:46So that's my question.How did a former KGB agent get a job with the power grid?Because whatever record I might have had was wiped clean by the FBI.I didn't even have a parking ticket.So there's no background check that would have found out where I came from.And your job with MetLife, did you leave that and then go to the power grid?Oh, I had multiple jobs.In between.
02:48:16MedLife, Prudential, United Healthcare, Carnettism of New York, Energy, Energy, and then the grid,the company I will not name because of non-disclosure.And what was the reason for going to different jobs?Were you just looking for different work?Were you moved out of those jobs because of the investigation?Usually I was hired to do a particular job, and after the first job in MetLife, it was all crisis management.And so when I was able to be my own boss, so to speak, because they had run out of ideas.And so I could just, my boss just like, do what you have to do, you know, just fix it.
02:48:57And I did.And after maybe two years, I started getting bored and I became a misfit because I now looked for improvements in other areas that threatened my...my colleagues and sometimeshigher-upsin one companywe had too many meetingsand everybody complained about the meetingsso I wrote a
02:49:23I wasa second tier executiveI wrote a memo toa senior staff and asked them toyou know to do the followingmake it part of a performanceplan for each employeeto communicate
02:49:41to their boss, one standing meeting that they won't attend anymore.I didn't even get acknowledgement that I sent them that memo.They were uncomfortable with that because, you know, it's so comfortable, you know.On Monday we do this and on Tuesday.And then we talk about the same thing over and over again, and I became a misfit.Because I'm a change agent, and you know I'm comfortable who's change.I'm seeking change.So every time I had an opportunity to fix another place, I went.
02:50:09I see.That makes sense.And then I also made more money.And so what compelled you to do this interview with 60 minutes and how do they find you?Oh, yeah, aye, aye.All right, let me take a...It's a little long story.Okay, at one point when I told my children, first Chelsea and then Jesse when they turned 18,
02:50:39when Jesse, my son...They never knew. They never knew until they turned 18.Correct.Wow.that's pretty remarkableit's a pretty remarkable lifewhat does Chelsea do nowChelsea runs an event venue
02:50:53I mean that's awesomenow everything that we've talked about todayall the stories that you've sharedyou don't have to say whatbut is there anything that you've lied aboutI'm still lying aboutno I stopped lying about itbecause I'm not living with a family
02:51:09but I used to hide my cookiesthat's fairthat's fairandAnd there's at least one thing I typically don't disclose,but it might as well be herebecause, you know, I think you did a really good job,so you deserve a scoop.
02:51:36The worst mistake I ever made.And that was, I mean, I should have been caught for sure.So when I traveled back and forth, I always took presents, you know, and that was okay.You know, if you declare them, you go, and particularly when you pass to another country,you don't have to pay the customs fee.But one time, I had started smoking some marijuana.very particularly when I was with my first girlfriend and sex was better when you had a joint.So I figured I'm going to take that home to my beloved wife and let's see what we can do with it.
02:52:36And I was so certain that I could get through the two borders there because,I wrapped it in a condom, and then I put the condom in a toothpaste, in a big toothpaste,in a tube, with toothpaste in it, and I figured, you know, there's nobody that doesn't smell, right?Well, what I didn't know at the time, the dog smelled through the shit through the toothpaste,and I was at Heathrow Airport, and there was, then God, no dog.If I get caught there, I'm in no man's landbecause I get caught smuggling in Englandand the KGB, I wouldn't want to be back home
02:53:26because they would have, you know what.Let your imagination figure that one out.That would have been the end of a decent life for me.Now they've gone public with their story,you're not worried about the KGB coming for you or finding you now?No, no.I have discussed it with the FBI and they agree with my reasoning.To do damage such as assassination to somebody in a country that is not yours
02:53:59or is not very friendly requires a highly well-trained, highly talented team.They don't have that many teams.even the elite team thattried to poisonthis fellow in Englandand his daughter on a park bench withwhatever that poison was.They couldn't get out of the country without
02:54:26havingknown that they wereGRU.That was arguably one of the, if not the best team.So they may have a10 or a dozen and not too manypeople qualified. You have to havemultiple talents, right?
02:54:44Same way with me.And so if I'm on the list there,that Vladimir Putin someplace has,I would be way at the bottom.Yeah.Also, if there was anybody who took my, quote,with trail personally, they don't live anymorebecause with the exception of one,
02:55:10he was myliaison in Moscowwhile I was trained in Moscowhe was actually a Maldavianhe could still be alivethe others don't live anymoreyou know they couldthere's no personal grudge
02:55:23having said thatif you offer me a million dollars nowfor likea one day trip to MoscowI would say thank you nobecause you knowthere's lots of windows thereand accidents can be arranged
02:55:39and Vladimir Putinis known forthat he delightsin scaring peopleand this would send a messagewithout him saying anythingyou know we get himno matter when
02:55:52it seems in your older ageyou've kind of softenedI think your childrenhave sort of softened you in a waythat I don't thinkyou even really knewit was possibleno you're right
02:56:01and I'm curiousprior to that pointdo you thinkthat you were a sociopathnoyou stillyou still had empathy the whole way.You still had a capacity for love.
02:56:15So think about it.Why did I marry Penelope when I didn't love her?You know, sex wasn't that strong.I mean, I had empathy for her situation.I said, I marry you because I don't want you to go through the same thing again.Maybe if you were more of a sociopath, you'd been a better KGB agent.Yeah.You're the first person who asked that question,
02:56:39But, you know, it's, and I'm not offended by it either.Well, Mr. Barkske, thank you so much.I really appreciate this.Your story genuinely is beautiful.It is a true crime story.It's a spy story.But I think more than anything, it's a love story.You're right about that.
02:56:57And if you allow me to say a few things with what I'm involved in,now what I'm doing to earn a living because the KGB doesn't pay my pension, right?You're a bike messenger, right?you went backNo no no I giveI give talks in publicFor payAnd I've been very well received
02:57:21No matter where I show upI recently last year I spoke at a national convention of MensaAnd was very highly rated by the audienceI you know I always do wellEven when I don't do well when I know that I'm notI'm not doing at my bestIalways talk about my story.
02:57:41There's other things and that I have like five, six different topics.One of them is called an undercover love story.That's about the role that love played in my life.And it's just about the love that we're talking about.Also, the, you know, starting out not knowing what love is because I didn't see it in my family.And then going overboard with that infatuation with us for a,my first girlfriend, and then the love for communism,and then the unconditional love and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
02:58:15love for my children.It's, well, it's a short version of this interview.And there's a podcast slash audio drama out therethat is a counterpart to my book.It's a 13-episode interview.with, it's really well producedas a narrator and has musicand has historic background
02:58:46and it's available for freeis called the agent.And I have some other things goingbut they're getting too complex to talk aboutjust watch outI'm going to be a lot more activeon social media within a month or so.I'm excited to see it. Thank you so much.
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