Camp Gagnon - The Satanic Trafficking Cult America Forgot | The Franklin Conspiracy

Episode Date: March 2, 2026

Shoutout to our sponsors: Cheers and Morgan & MorganUse Code ‘CAMP’ For 20% OFF When You Visit https://cheershealth.comNick Bryant sits down with Mark to discuss the Franklin Credit Union scandal.#podcast #podcastclips #campgagnon #truecrimestories #criminal #epsteinfiles #crime #storytime

What's up, everybody, and welcome back to camp. Today, we are talking about an interesting topic, something that a comedian definitely should be talking about. And I was doing a lot of research on this specific thing. Jeffrey Epstein kind of opened up, I think, a social thought bubble about this type of crime, things related to underage trafficking, specifically for the means of extortion or political blackmail.

and in doing my research, I came across a very interesting book called The Franklin Scandal, written by a guy named Nick Bryant, who happens to be sitting right across from me. How are you, Nick? I'm good. Good to be with you. Yeah, I'm really excited to speak with you. You have a very fascinating life. You've done a lot of really interesting research. You, for lack of a better word, you basically published Jeffrey Epstein's Black Book onto the internet. I literally published Jeffrey Epstein's Black Book on the Internet. So if there was a guy to talk to about political extortion schemes and these dirty deeds as it involves, you know, large power brokers in America and around the world, I think you'd be the guy to talk to. I'm in the top 1%.

I would say so. Maybe 0.01%. Yeah, right? You know, you're not a billionaire. You know what I mean? You're not. I'm not. You weren't an accomplice of Epstein, right?

Well, I'd be living in a much nicer apartment if I was an accomplice of Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah, you wouldn't be in a 10 with me. But today I really am interested in speaking about two specific cases. Everything related to Jeffrey Epstein, Galane Maxwell, her family, his family, the people that were involved, Les Wexner, the people that were benefiting from these trafficking operations. And I also want to speak about a case known as the Franklin scandal. The Franklin scandal, I think, is a little bit lesser known, but basically parallels the

Epstein case almost exactly. They're carbon copies. Yeah. And I think it's important to discuss them in tandem because I think that a lot of people look at Epstein and they say, oh, this is a little bit weird. There's some weird things going on.

Even if you don't accept all of the conspiratorial nature of the things involving Epstein, which we'll get into, I think most people look at it. And it's kind of become a meme like, oh, Epstein didn't kill himself. You know, that's like sort of the phrase and the terminology that people use. And so I think a lot of people have questions about that.

And so we're going to get to that. But I want to talk about the Franklin Scandal because I think it's lesser known and I think, you know, equally as disturbing. And you wrote the book, the Franklin Scandal, which is an excellent book that details everything so thorough. I mean, it was basically you and, you know, the journalist that was actually doing the work in the 80s on the case. He eventually died in a plane crash. Actually, he was an investigator. Oh, an investigator. For the Nebraska State Senate.

I would say you two are probably the two most qualified people to discuss this. So I'm curious. Could you just give me just an outline for the lay people to get them up to speed? What was the Franklin scandal? When did it happen? And who are the main people that were involved? The Franklin scandal is about a nationwide network, very much like Jeffrey Epstein's. It was the epicenter was in Omaha, Nebraska.

And there were two primary pimps. One was Lawrence E. King and one was Craig Spence. Craig Spencer was in Washington, D.C. and King was in Omaha. And King was getting lots of children from Boys Town, the distinguished Catholic orphanage on the outskirts of Omaha. And then these guys, predators like Epstein or King or Spence, they know how to get kids.

They know where to get kids. Super predators know how to pray. So King was flying kids, and I've got about 200 flight receipts. And he was flying kids from coast to Cray. coast. And most of the flight receipts that I have are passenger manifest, go to Washington, D.C. Hmm. And in Washington, D.C., there was a party house run by a power broker named Craig Spence, who had connections to Mount Olympus. This guy was as plugged in as someone can be in Washington, D.C.

And who was this guy? He was a lobbyist. And he was also, I believe, a compromise. It's also a CIA asset. And King would bring the kids, a lot of times, Kim would bring the kids to Spence his home, his mansion in the Kalorama section of Washington, D.C. And it was wired for audiovisual blackmail, just like Epstein's homes. So any of the politicians or power brokers that stayed there and wanted a party,

they would ultimately be compromised by Craig Spence. or this, I mean, some, you can say CIA, but it's some dark, malignant corner of intelligence. Okay. Now, I want to just clear a couple things because as I was doing research, there were some things that I found a little confusing. So it's called the Franklin Scandal

because it came out of the Franklin Credit Union in Omaha, Nebraska. Now, there's two crimes that are happening simultaneously. There's a financial crime, and then there's also this trafficking crime. And in, I guess, full, you know, full training. transparency with the official narrative. The official narrative says that the, uh, the trafficking amongst a grand jury was a hoax. Actually, uh, two grand juries. Two grand juries. Yeah. They say that

element was a hoax, but the financial crimes, they were legitimate and that he defrauded people of millions of dollars. So it's called the Franklin's County because of this credit union. So the Franklin credit union. He was, what, what was he doing with the Franklin credit union? Lawrence King, he was a Republican power broker. He even sang, the national anthem at the 1984 Republican convention. He's a very good singer, a very evil man, but a very good singer. But a very good singer, yeah. And, um, Carl is a good singer.

It's, uh, so with King, he used the Franklin Credit Union as basically a boilet room. And he was able to embezzle about $40 million. And if you're a federally insured credit union, you have to be audited at least once. a year by the feds. And the feds hadn't audited the Franklin Credit Union in four years. And then all of a sudden, it's rated and $40 million is missing. So a number of Nebraska senators formed what was called the Franklin Committee to look into the embezzlement. But after they came together, people from social services approached them. And they said, King is a thief, but he's also running a nationwide trafficking network. And they had reports about King that they'd given to both state and federal law enforcement. And they were simply ignored. So they wanted the social service

people, personnel, wanted the senators to look into the child trafficking too, which they did. So how does this work? Someone like King, he's moving his way up the ranks of, you know, Republican politics. and then he somehow is now, and the embezzlement thing makes sense, right? People like to steal, and if you're in a position where you're unchecked, you're going to steal, sure.

But how do you get into a position where you are now procuring children and then sending them to other high power people? Are they putting a known in that position to do that? Or was he compromised and then had to do it? What do you think happened? King is, I've got no doubts about that. My theory is, and this is just my theory,

If you read the Franklin scandal, I prove much of the Franklin scandal was sealed grand jury testimony and sealed grand jury exhibits. And it's about as solid a book as a book can be as far as research. But I'm just extrapolating here. Both King and his partner, Craig Spence, they were both in Southeast Asia at the same time. King was in Thailand with a top secret clearance. And Craig Spence was an ABC Corps war correspondent. And when they both, and they're both from working class families, much like Epstein, who we'll get into later.

They're both from working class families. And they were both. And what I think happened, I think that they probably got busted in Southeast Asia and little boys. and that's where they returned. Because once they came back to the U.S., their careers just skyrocketed exponentially. And why is King in Southeast Asia with top clearance? Was he military?

He was ostensibly with the Air Force, yeah. Okay. So this is a guy from working class family, gets in the Air Force. He goes to Southeast Asia. It's a boy. He gets caught. And then basically, and then again, this is conjecture and pure allegation.

that he was, you know, that they say, hey, we'll give you a deal. How about you can go back? And he's like, oh, but I have a career in politics. I want to do X, Y, Z. And they say, how about you can work for us as an asset and you'll avoid jail time. You'll live a good life. And you'll be able to make as many kids as you want. I mean, that was the deal that was made, I believe with King.

I believe it was made with Spence. And I believe that it was made with Jeffrey Epstein, too. And where do you think these deals come from? Is this high brass in intelligence, U.S. government? There's some dark. malignant corner of our intelligence that blackmails people. I mean, that's just how they, that's political blackmail is as old as politics itself. Right.

Alexander Hamilton, who there's been a number of Hagegy Offer, he's written about like the founding fathers that give them saint like status. But Alexander Hamilton was having an affair with a 23 year old girl who was a woman who was married. Mm-hmm. And her husband was blackmailing him. And there was a muckraking journalist who outed Alexander Hamilton and Jefferson had become president. And Jefferson and Hamilton had tremendous antipathy towards each other.

So the muckraking journalist felt that Jefferson would give him an appointment in his administration. And when Jefferson didn't do that, the muckraking journalist outed him for having sex with one of his slaves, Sally Hemings. And actually, DNA has shown that, that they had progeny and, So when we get into political blackmail, it's something that's age old. It's not something that's just new. Right. And the idea of, you know, child trafficking would make sense in this regard because, you know, maybe you could use, you know, being gay, right back in like the, you know, 60s, 70s, 80s, even in the 90s. And like we have evidence, you know, like the mafia would control gay bars in order to get politicians to their bidding, et cetera. So these things are more or less documented.

But now, you know, obviously being gay, rightfully is, you know, not an issue. socially, or not as much of an issue. Generally not an issue, but it can be. Sure. I guess if you're being fraudulent about it, it would be a problem. Yeah, I mean, if you're like Peter Thiel and you're completely in the closet and Glocker out of you and... Right, yeah, you shouldn't be outed. I mean, this is, that's a nefarious thing to do to someone, but it's not a career.

It couldn't happen to a nicer guy, though, Peter Thiel. It was, I guess, back in the day, you would lose your career. But something like, you know, engaging in sex or, you know, I guess with an underage person, there's no coming back from it. It is the worst of all evil. So if you can get someone doing this, then you can control them, you know, into perpetuity. I was able to get a hold of one of the, I was able to spend some time with one of the blackmail photographers for the Franklin scandal. And they were somewhat onctuous. I mean, that vocation is not forged with integrity.

But I got to know him. This is Rusty Nelson. His name is Rusty Nelson. And I asked him, how does this work? Because I was trying to get my mind around it. It was so big. And I was trying to see. And he said to me, it's, and I've used this analogy many times.

He said, once you're compromised, it's like you're on a yacht. And it's a beautiful yacht and it's a beautiful day and you can have anything you want if you're on the yacht. But if you decide to get off the yacht, the people on the yacht are going to make sure that you drown. Yeah. So that's how it works. There's zero incentive for anybody to get off the yacht. That makes sense. Now, this dark, malignant intelligence committee that's sort of.

basically getting blackmailed people. Do you think that it belongs to one specific branch of the government? Is it just a shadowy sort of cabal that exists within the government? Is it named? Is it an operation? Is there some type of label to put on it? You know, some people call it the deep state. Some people call it the military intelligence complex.

I call generally a dark, malignant corner of intelligence. Henry or Herbert Hoover blackmail people forever. I mean, he had files on everybody. People were frightened of Edgar Hoover, Jay Edgar Hoover. And do you have an example of one of those? I mean, he had files on Frank Sinatra. He had files on JFK. He had files on RFK.

I mean, he had files on just about everybody that he didn't like. And even people that he liked he had files on. So with him, he was blackmailing people for years. And according to Evelyn Lincoln, who was JFK's secretary, and people dispute this. But according to her, Kennedy did not want Johnson on the ticket in 1960 when he ran for president. But Hoover blackmailed him into taking Johnson on. And was going to expose one of his affairs or something? JFK had a lot to expose.

Yeah. Now, some people say that that's. true. Some people say it's not, but it's entirely, given the dynamics of JFK and given the dynamics of Jagger Hoover, I think it's entirely possible. Well, as I understand, I mean, JFK seems to have a, you know, he's a philanderer and likes women. And I think he has confirmed relationships with Marilyn Monroe, Judy Campbell and, you know, a litany of others. So that coming out, especially in that time in the 60s, would have been, you know, a death sentence for his career. That makes a lot of sense. So this guy, Lawrence King gets this deal and they basically say, okay, we're going to put you into political

office, we're going to put you with this credit union. What do you think happens from there? Again, this is conjecture, but just kind of paint the picture. He all of a sudden starts to run this credit union that's for lower socioeconomic people in northern Omaha. But then he starts driving really expensive sports cars. He starts living in really expensive homes. He has a penthouse in like a luxury apartment building in Omaha. He has a number of apartments. He's flying to Washington, D.C. just about every week. And that credit union is supposed to have $2.5 million in it. And his salary is supposed to be $20,000 a year. So interesting. So he was given carte blanche to do whatever he wanted.

And when the social service people came to those senators and said, King is trafficking children, they gave the senators reports that they had, that they'd also given federal and state law enforcement that had been ignored. So these, the Senate committee started looking at that. and they hired an amazing investigator named Gary Caridori. And he was like, I've got everything that Gary Caridori got. I've got his daily logs. I've got the flight receipts that he found.

I got his interviews. I mean, I got everything that Gary Caradori had. And he was an amazing investigator. And he was actually, and the FBI was working very, very hard to cover this up. Just like we've seen the Department of Justice cover up Epstein. If victims came forward to Caridori, the FBI immediately put heat on him. And that's thoroughly documented. And actually, there was a perpetrator that wanted to do a deal with the senators because

they had him dead to rights. And the FBI, according to an affidavit that I had, the FBI threatened to kill him. if he didn't keep his head low. And how do those threats come in? Is it written in choice words or is it like, hey, we're going to take you out? With the Franklin scandal, these FBI agents were really dirty and there wasn't much diplomacy going on there. And they get a tip from some higher brass that says, hey, this guy's actually an asset, you know, leave him alone. Is that kind of why the cover up?

The FBI, there were some agents in the FBI that were told to cover this up. Got it. To make sure that. Because with the Franklin scandal, if the dominoes had started to fall in Omaha, they would have fallen all the way to Washington, D.C. So there were people very high in the government in the Department of Justice that said this has to be covered up. So Caridore's investigation, what does he ultimately uncover? What are some of like the main kind of smoking gun moments that he finds? Kavit where he finds other victims than the ones that originally came forward, and he videotapes them.

And he's a dynamo. I've got his leads list that has approximately 60 victims. It has like 325 people that are involved in Franklin one way or the other. But his leads list has like 60 victims. And my job was to find these victims and get them to talk to me. that was really difficult because some of them this system becomes

it's an amazing system you get a kid that's really young you repeatedly turn them on to drugs and then at a certain point they lose their youthful marketability and then they're just expunged so you end up with a young adult

that's probably a drug addict or an alcoholic. Likely as mental health issues. Big time mental health issues. And they go on to commit crimes and compromise their own credibility. Or they have a lot of psychiatric problems that compromise their own credibility. And then their testimonies can sort of be thrown out. Yeah.

So with the Franklin scandal, there were six victims that came forward. Ciro already got four to come forward. And there are two others that came forward. And there were two grand juries. There was a state grand jury and there was a federal grand jury. The state grand jury, and I don't know if your viewers or listeners are familiar with how grand juries work, but they're very easy to corrupt. There was a New York state judge that said special prosecutors of grand juries have so much power over grand juries

that they could get them to indict a ham sandwich. What is the difference between a grand jury and a regular jury? Okay, so with a grand jury, a special prosecutor is chosen. And grand jurors, I mean, like when we think of a grand jury, we think it's like a decree from the guys of jurisprudence. Yeah, it sounds like a greater deal than a regular jury. But with a grand jury, grand jurors are just people that have shown up for jury duty and they've been funneled to a grand jury. And a special prosecutor is chosen. And these are just citizens.

They don't know anything about this case. and the special prosecutor is responsible for calling witnesses and then showing the grand jurors evidence. So essentially what the special prosecutor wants, the special prosecutor gets. In the Epstein grand jury, I dissected it on a podcast mine a couple weeks ago. And I show just how corrupt that grand jury was. because in the Epstein case, the Palm Beach Police Department had the statements of five victims, but they knew of 17 others.

So there were 23 victims, and the woman, the special prosecutor was Lana Bell Lovic. She called two minors. That was it, just two, and then skewered them. And they called them, prostitutes. I mean, and one of them had been by Jeffrey Epstein when she was 14 years old and she was 16 years old at that time. So, so that grand jury declared that Jeffrey Epstein had the single

minor. So that was, and the grand jury in Omaha, the state grand jury declared that Lawrence King had the single minor, nor the cadre of surrounding him. And the federal grand jury also declared that. And then there were a. a couple of kids, and I don't know how they did this, but it's pretty amazing, given all the abuse that they endured, they wouldn't recant. The FBI and Department of Justice coming down on them really hard, they wouldn't recant. One of them was Alicia Owen, and she had been trafficked since she was an adolescent, and she would not recant her abuse. And she was indicted on a case. counts of perjury from the state grand jury and eight counts of purgary from the federal grand jury.

She was looking at 200 years in prison. We're talking at this point, she's 21 years old. We're talking about a 21-year-old looking at 200 years in prison for being the victim of a crime. For saying, I was abused and I'm not going to say I wasn't abused. And so what is the perjury on the grounds of that the grand jury found no malfeasance on King's part? Yes, that she lied. So therefore she must be lied. She said that She was that she was trafficked by King. She was repeatedly by the Omaha Police Chief. And that she saw the publisher of the Omaha World Herald, which is the big magazine in Nebraska, eight or nine year olds. So not only was it to protect that cadre of power, but it was also to protect the Washington, D.C. side, where Craig Spence was using these kids to compromise bigger fish.

Now, the element to the Omaha scandal, I guess actually a question I have regarding Omaha specifically, why was it Omaha? Is that where King was from? Or is that a place where they could get along with their abuse and not be found out as easily? This is interesting. Stratcom is the brain of our national defense system. And it's outside of Omaha, Nebraska. And according to sources that I have, have, Stratcom, I mean, that's where Bush was taken right after 9-11. And I believe that that's where he met Warren Buffett. That's where who met Warren Buffett? Where Bush Jr. met Warren Buffett. They were both taken to Stratcom during 9-11. Stratcom is the brain of our national defense.

And there's a high concentration of CIA people. in that area because of Strattcom. They have to keep that area clean. And I think, now, I've seen various municipalities let people's walk. We saw it with Epstein, but the snow killings is about a network outside of Detroit, which we can get into later. and the very popular docu series, The Keepers, was about a network in Baltimore that, and both these networks had connections to law enforcement.

And the Franklin network, I mean, they were pandering kids to the police chief. Hmm. Now, wasn't, who was it? Charles Manson was at Boys Town at a certain time. Briefly there. That's what the lore is. I haven't been able to nail that down, but yeah, that's... Is that a strange coincidence to you, or do you think that there's another layer to that that makes it more interesting? I have no idea. It is peculiar that he happens to be at the same orphanage.

Steve McQueen was there, too, so... Oh, interesting. So, who knows? Right. So let's say I'm with you. I'm like, okay, there's definitely, you know, money, financial crimes. That's documented for sure. we have all of these victims coming forward that, you know, under heavy scrutiny, still maintained that there was sexual misconduct, sex trafficking. Now, the element that I guess is probably the most pivotal here is this idea of blackmail and political extortion. Now, how do we know that in this whole operation that there was political extortion,

specifically in Washington, D.C.? What evidence is there of that? There's a tremendous amount of evidence. The Washington Times ran a number of articles on the blackmail that was going down at Craig Spence's home. Craig Spence had a house that was wired for Audio Vision blackmail. I wrote a book called Confessions of a D.C. Madam, The Politics of Sex Lies and Blackmail. And it was from the perspective of Henry Vincent. He ran a gay escort service. And he would provide King and Spence with escorts.

with gay escorts. And Henry describes this afternoon where Spence summons him because Spence was this almighty power broker and he would summon Henry. And Spence, and we're talking mid-1980s paid up to, gave Henry up to $20,000, $25,000 a month for male escorts. So he was using a lot of escorts. But Henry is, so Henry is summoned. and he sees King and Spence, and both these guys are malevolent.

They're evil creatures. And King is talking about sadism with children, and they're talking about how much power they have, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Henry is from West Virginia, very naive guy, and he's a mortician. He is the last guy that you would expect to run out gay escorts.

service. With Henry, it's kind of interesting. He went to why, he had, he comes from a background in West Virginia where people are, you know, getting bit with snakes and stuff like that, poisonous snakes, because of there's a line, there's a passage in Mark where if you have faith in Christ, you can speak in tongues and withstand the poison of snakes or poisonous snakes. I don't think that the passage is kind of tacked on. I don't think that the passage, it's kind of tacked on. I don't think that that passage was added to like the 5th or 6th century. But nonetheless, there have been a lot of snake handlers in Appalachia that have been killed because of that passage. Wow. So Henry comes from that kind of background where, you know, he was young and gay and he was

repressed. And then he met some other morticians, gay morticians, and they would go to this what this is chippendale's version of like a gay scene and uh henry met one of the dancers and kind of befriended him and the dancers said uh that this guy who was dying was willing to sell his escort service and henry just kind of on a lark said well how much and my guy said i think it was 10 or 13 000 something like that and henry said i'll buy it wow so he gets in a snake handling too. No. Just in a different way.

So, but Henry is a very, very, very smart guy. Mm-hmm. And then, so he opens the Washington yellow pages. This is back when we had yellow pages. And then he starts calling escort services. And most escort services are fly by night operations. So they don't pay their phone bill. So when Henry would encounter a phone, like a disconnection notice, he would

would call the phone company and say, I will pay the arrears if you give me the number. So Henry grew this little escort service into a huge escort service. In Washington, D.C. In Washington, D.C. He's there with King and Spence, and they've got like a little sugar bowl of Coke, and Spence is doing Coke. And Spence is like has seismic narcissism. I mean, And if we're talking on a scale of one to ten as far as seismic narcissism, he's probably at 12. So all of a sudden, Spence starts asking Henry about his life.

And Henry thinks that he's witnessing like the Red Sea parting. I mean, Spence has only cared about his hookers and treated him like shit. So Spence starts asking about his life and where he grew up and what college he went to to study mortuary sciences. And then he starts asking him about his escort service and how much he makes and how many escorts he has. And then King is sitting there with a malignant smirk. And at a certain point, Spence gets up and signals to Henry to follow him.

He goes into a closet. And at the back of the closet, there's a secret. panel. And then he opens a secret panel and there's a big two-way mirror that's in the living room that's facing the living room. But then there's all these monitors. And then he hits a couple of the monitors or one of the monitors, buttons on the monitors. And Henry is talking about his escort service. And Spence essentially says, I blackmail people for a living and considers yourself blackmail. So, and there's

other accounts. And how do we know that that case? Like where did that's, that anecdote come from? That comes from Henry. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I just want to state the obvious. You're not going to hire a chiropractor to do brain surgery. And if you're going to go fighting the octagon, you wouldn't hire a guy that watches a lot of UFC. And if you have a personal injury case, you're not going to just like hire your buddy that's good with

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this footage. Like all of these politicians are getting blackmailed. And I also want to know who and which politicians get blackmail. But this seems like that would be very clear evidence, right? Like, you know, you have a wiretap, AVU system inside your home with two-way mirror, or one-way mirrors. What happens to all of that equipment? Is that brought up in the, you know, the trial? Well, look at Epstein. The FBI drilled Epstein's safe and took out hundreds to thousands of DVDs. And a lot of them were, but a number of them were probably blackmail material.

And what's happened to them? Yeah, I mean, nothing's happened to them. And I filed two freedom of information requests, not for the DVDs, but for reports on the DVDs. after Epstein died, the Fed said his case was closed. So I filed my FOIAs and I just wanted reports on the DVDs.

And then I was told that the case was ongoing. And then like six months later, I filed a FOIA. And I was told that the case was ongoing. So they're never, ever going. I mean, and that's where this stuff goes. I mean, it ends up in a black hole. But the Franklin case specifically, like, was that ever brought? up in the trial, like, oh, there is, you know. No, no. That was never, it was never, it never went that

far. Wow. And so which politicians get compromised and how exactly does a politician get compromised, right? Like what, like, I'm assuming not all these guys are, so like, how does that happen? In December, Tennessee representative Tim Burchett did something unbelievably cragous. he said that a lot of my colleagues are being compromised in honey traps. Oh, he said this. A U.S. congressman said it in December. And can you explain a honey trap for anyone that doesn't know? A honey trap is where people get compromised sexually.

Right. A U.S. Congress, I've been waiting. I've been in this world for 22 years, man, and I've been waiting for a representative. Now, there was another guy that had said that, but he clearly had some problems. So he lacks credibility. But this guy, he's, I mean, he said it and he's still in the house of representatives. So he's got to be squeaky clean. So you know, Lawrence King is in D.C.

He invites you to a party at Spence's house and you go over there and there's young people. Does he say explicitly? This is how it works. Okay. So there's the straight up parties where everybody's on the yacht. that's invited. But then there's the parties where it's like a political, you know, it's kind of like your Washington, D.C. party. And people are getting lubricated with alcohol, talking about politics or whatever people do in Washington, D.C. And then at a certain point, at like maybe 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock,

someone fires up a joint, someone breaks out a line of Coke, or something sexually explicit happens. And the people that are freaked out by that split, but then the people that want to continue the party, they're going to be compromised. They're going to end up on the eye. And do they know that they're being compromised? No. They have no idea. And that's the thing. Craig Spence was getting a lot of media.

And Jeffrey Epstein was getting a lot of media. And you cannot be a black. mailer if you're getting a lot of media. So their ability to blackmail people was quite negligent, was essentially had diminished exponentially because they could, everybody knew what they were about because of all the, the press that they were getting. Right. So they were expandable.

Spence himself in Ritz Carlton and Boston, he were a, uh, uh, uh, a tuxedo and took an overdose of nortriptylene, which is an antidepressant. Hmm. And I do believe that he gave them himself. Interesting. I believe that Spence was given a, an ultimatum. You can yourself or we can't kill you, depending upon, you know, which way do you want to go? Hmm.

And I think Spence just went. And then Spence did have a. Interesting. So he was going to die in short order. He was going to die anyway. And plus, Spence like Epstein, had a huge ego and a big mouth. And there's no way that they could let those guys continue to run around. Now, which politicians, if, you know, if there's any that are public or that you've already written about, do you think we're compromised in the Franklin scandal specifically? Well, okay, Larry Craig was in Washington, D.C. for 20. years. He was a hyper-conservant, Uber-conservative from Idaho. And he, I think, he probably had the worst record for voting against gay rights of anybody in the Senate.

Henry Vincent, the guy who I was just telling you about, who ran the gay escort service, he provided Craig with gay escorts. But, Kirby Dick, who's a pretty renowned documentary maker, made a film called The Outrage about how gay politicians voting as gay rights. And Craig was featured in that. And there were other escorts that Henry hadn't sent to Craig that were interviewed. So Craig was in Washington, D.C. for 25 years. first as a House of Representatives guy and then and then as a senator. Totally compromised.

And this is the kicker with Craig. He was in a bathroom in the Minneapolis International Airport. And now there's a signaling that gays do in like bathrooms, where they'll slap their foot in the stall. And then if the other dudes had to try it, then they'll, I guess, you know, maybe he'll slap his foot or say, you know, whatever. Yeah, I think it was like a back in the day thing

when you had to be more surreptitious about it. So, well, this was, I think, like 10 years ago. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, wow. So Craig responded to this vice squad, vice squad cop, slapping his foot. And then they arrested him.

Now, how hard would it be? I mean, the guy's trying to pick up a guy in a bathroom and an airport. How hard would it be to compromise that guy? Yeah, I mean, it seems like an insatiable desire. I mean, a kid with a smartphone doing an after-school project could probably compromise Larry Craig. Now, do you think he was compromised with audiovisual blackmail or just based off the testimony of the escort service? I mean, I believe that he was, Henry said that he was giving Craig escorts, these other guys saying that Craig was getting escorts. So, and then he's trying to pick people up in bathrooms.

I mean, right. I'm from Minneapolis. And I was sitting on a commode once and some guy was slapping his foot next to in the stall over. And I'm just glad. I thought he had a neurological disorder. I felt bad for him. But I'm really glad I didn't say, could I, could I, could I have? help you.

Maybe I had Taco Bell, who knows. So, but yeah, Craig was definitely compromised. I'll give you another example. Please. And I guess specifically with maybe King's underage escorts, if you know any of them. Well, I'll give me an underage example. Dennis Haster was in Washington, D.C. for many years. He was the Speaker of the House from 1999 to 2006.

constitutionally, that's the third most powerful person in the country. Now, he had a history of boys going back 40 years, at least 40 years. And what happened with him, he was a strong-arm specialist when he was in the house. I mean, he was the Senate, the House majority leader. and like he made sure that you voted the way that he wanted you to vote. And what happened with him, there was a FBI whistleblower named Sabelle Admonds. And she talked about the FBI knowing about Craig doing this type of stuff when he was Speaker of the House.

So it's not like law enforcement, federal law enforcement, didn't know about this. So Craig had been little boys all these years. And that's confirmed? Absolutely. Wow. And what happened, he, okay, so he left the house and then he became, he had a very, very lucrative. I mean, he was doing a lot of lobbying with various countries, including Turkey. And he was making millions and millions of dollars.

Now, I don't know why he got taken down, but he got taken down. Someone was blackmailing him. One of his victims was blackmailing him. And Craig was paying him off. And the FBI chose to go after Craig instead of the blackmailer. So my thoughts on that are Craig got too greedy. So I think he was tossed off the yacht because he got too greedy. And where is he now?

Is he in prison? No, he's in Washington or he's in Michigan. He did go to prison for a while, but then he, actually, he's in Illinois and he won't return my calls. You went to prison for these crimes? Well, he went to prison for financial manipulation so he could pay off his blackmailer. Interesting. Wow. So.

Well, look, here's the thing with that. If the FBI really wanted to shut that down, it could have, because the FBI could have gone to the blackmailer and said, if you continue to blackmail Dennis Haster, we're going to put your ass in prison forever. Right. They could have protected him. But they didn't. And extortion is technically illegal.

But they didn't because. Right. And we don't know why. But my belief is that, I mean, he was making millions of millions, millions of dollars of lobbyists. I just think that he had gotten too big for his britches and was someone, someone high up probably wanted a cut. And, you know, he said, no, I'm Dennis Hastert. I can do what I want. And then, and then he found out that he was Dennis Hastert, but he couldn't do what he wanted.

Interesting. Now, as far as, like, who's really pulling the strings and kind of the deep state that we talked about a little bit before, I know it's probably pretty nebulous and shrouded, but I'm curious, like, for someone like King who is procuring children to then deliver to politicians, Is he being paid for this or is he just given impunity to do what he wants and also embezzle? I mean, he's embezzling money. He's embezzling millions of dollars. And he's not getting audited. So his payment is just, hey, we're going to look the other way.

Yeah. And I think that some of that money went to the Contras, too. Oh, really? I can't prove it, but I've got accounts. I didn't say it in the book. When you write a book, there's things that you, you know, and then there's things that you can prove. Right.

And when I write a book, I only go with what I can prove, but I think that's some of that money, according to some sources, that money was getting diverted to the Contras. Interesting. And Spence, the same thing, was given impunity or was he being paid directly? Spence was giving tons of money as a lobbyist. Got it. And whoever he was lobbying for, there was some kind of mechanism that was. was giving him his, that was paying for his lifestyle.

Now, once a politician is compromised, certainly King and Spence, if they are doing the blackmailing, the compromising, they would have leverage over these politicians. Who else would have leverage over them? Is it, like, who were King and Spence working for? Is this go back kind of to that dark corner of intelligence? Okay, I'll give you. Larry King and Craig Spence are from blue collar families. Okay. Yeah. Larry King, not that Larry King. Yeah. Not that lyric. Lawrence King and Craig Spencer are from blue-collar families. They don't, they're not from money. They're not from power. Jeffrey Epstein was from a blue-collar family. Not a lot of money, not a lot of power. But these guys cannot be blackmailing the most powerful men in the world without an organization.

behind them. Right. They would be taken out. That says if you touch King, if you touch Spence, if you touch Epstein, there's going to be retribution. That is the only way people say Epstein was blackmailing these guys. Epstein was participating in the blackmail these guys, but there's no way he could have pulled that off without an organization behind it.

That makes sense. That would seek retribution. And that's where people make a mistake about. Epstein, they just think that he was this lone, him and Max were like these lone blackmailers, but there's no way they could have done that to some of the most powerful guys in the world. Right. And now are they trying to get the politicians to vote a specific way? Are they trying to get them to do specific foreign deals? Like, what kind of pressure and... All the above. I look at the United States spends $877 billion on the military. I mean, that's what we know about. Yeah, there's black budgets and things like that.

And we're like the next 10 countries don't spend. We're talking Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Israel. The next 10 countries don't spend $877 million. So obviously, I believe they're getting compromised by whatever you want to call. The military intelligence complex, that's the military intelligence complex, the deep state, or what I say, some dark, malignant corner of intelligence. Is it possible that there's multiple intelligence and blackmailing organizations that are occurring simultaneously?

Like, is it possible that there's, you know, some type of Russian blackmail operation that's happening and a Chinese blackmail operation and, you know, all these different governments or maybe even private individuals, billionaires, trying to all do their own blackmailing operations? I think that there's a lot of blackmailing going on. Yeah. I just don't think. And where people make a mistake with abstain is.

they think, well, Epstein was Massad. But there's no way that the CIA is going to let the Mossad compromise American politicians on American soil without getting a cut of that intelligence. Well, maybe they are. It's just not going to happen. So it's at least joint. Yes. Right.

But I think maybe that's an oversight that maybe some people make is that they think all of these schemes and every blackmailing operation that happens in the United States throughout time has all happened because. of the CIA or because of Russia or because of Israel, I think it's probably more likely, in my opinion, at least, that it's probably many different competing blackmailing factions that are trying to compromise people. It's very easy to compromise these guys. These guys have a very potent psychological alchemy of lust and arrogance. And nothing makes people stupid like lust and arrogance. As I've often said, if love is blind, lust is deaf, dumb, and quadriplegic.

Right. That's a good way to put it. So you've got, look at Bill Clinton. He's a very, very, very intelligent guy. I mean, he's an ethical eunuch, but he's a very, very intelligent guy. And why is he going to let, why is he going to jeopardize his presidency with Monica Lewinsky? Yeah. Because he's patholize, he's got. Yeah, it is a pathology, I think, at a certain point. I think that a lot of these guys probably have that. And maybe they might not be interested in, you know, young children, but maybe they're interested in a young woman who happens to be 16. And then they're able to be like, hey, actually that woman you were with was actually underage and now you're compromised. Now, do you think that after they're compromised, they tell

them, like, they send them a letter and say, hey, remember that party? Actually, you're in trouble. Or do you think they request something and say, and if you don't, then maybe that party will be found out. I mean, all you got to do is give the guy a picture, right? You know, That's not rocket science. Just the, all you've got to do is give the guy a picture and... And they can figure it out. They can definitely figure it out at that point. So now, let's just button up the Franklin scandal.

Obviously, you know, everyone went to jail and the victims got justice, right? No, nobody got justice. And all those perps were exonerated. And Alicia Owen got nine to 15 years for perjury. Right. And the authorities really tried to do. destroy her, they put her in solitaire. This kid, 21-year-old kid, they put her in solitary for two years. I mean, they really tried to destroy her. And that jury that found her guilty was heavily

manipulated. I get into it in my book, heavily manipulated, but they were still out for three days. And then the investigator that did all the research to interview all these victims, he ends up dying in a plane crash. His plane blew up over leaking. County, Illinois, after he met with the blackmail photographer. I wanted to button up that conversation as well. The blackmail photographer Rusty Nelson, how does that work? So King or Spence, they find this guy and they say, hey, we're going to have a party. Can you stand behind this mirror and take photographs? Is that how it goes? With Rusty, he was into photography, and they gave him an opportunity to be a photographer. Was he also compromised? Because if he's taking compromising photos,

he must be compromised as well. Well, he's been busted for... Got it. So they find this photographer who's also... I say, hey. But he got busted after the Franklin. But he took lots of material.

And like potentially before, you know, allegedly, I don't want to speculate too strongly. I don't know if he did that before he got hooked up with Lawrence King, but he certainly did after he got hooked up with Lawrence King. Right. Well, if I'm going to hire photographer for blackmail, I would some way have collateral on them because they were going to have access to all the photographs and be able to make some type of...

There was another photographer I was never able to find him. And now, did Rusty face consequences for his involvement? No, because according to state and federal law enforcement, not a single child was abused. Right. But the FBI really put the... I mean, scared Rusty. I mean, he was living in a farmhouse, and I saw what that farmhouse looks like. Someone took like a machine gun and just sprayed it.

Oh, really? So they tried to take him out? I don't think they tried to take him out, but they tried to make sure that he left the state. Yeah, wow. I'm curious why they wouldn't try to take him out as well, because he's as dangerous. Maybe not actually, no, the investigator is probably more dangerous than. The investigator was going to break it wide open. Right.

I think Rusty had a finite number of pictures. I think that King was very circumspect about making sure that Rusty didn't have pictures, but Rusty was able to smuggle some out. And I believe he gave them all the Gary Kerrador in Chicago. And Caradour was flying back from Chicago to Lincoln, Nebraska, and his plane exploded over Lee County, Illinois. Now, he was flying his own aircraft? Yeah.

Now, I guess if you're doing an investigation on potentially, you know, very powerful people doing, you know, getting blackmailed, maybe don't fly your own plane. You know, I wonder if there's a train or a commercial jet you could have taken. The thing with him where he made a mistake, he thought he was too high profile. Caridore. Yeah. He thought, oh, I'm already on the record. I was assigned to this by the investigative board. They're not going to do anything.

They're not going to kill me. Gotcha. That makes sense. Now, there is an element to this that we discussed briefly before, and I thought you had really interesting. interesting thoughts on it. Some of the victims from the Franklin case alleged that there was what was called ritual abuse. Yes. And I believe they mentioned that there were pentagrams involved and that there was some type of satanic element. And I'm curious what your thoughts are on that ripple of the story. According to Wikipedia and the FBI, ritual abuse has never

existed, nor will it ever exist. As I said earlier, The FBI categorizes serial killers as ritualistic and non-retualistic. So it's kind of weird that it doesn't categorize as ritualistic and non- ritualistic. But anyway, there are a number of examples, scores and scores of examples of ritual abuse. My thoughts on that are it's a relatively small part of the Franklin scandal. But my thoughts on that are there is a group. of occultists that are very, very dark. And their highest sacrament is the destruction of innocence.

They're like the ideal Christian sacrament is the preservation and the cultivation of innocence. But with these guys, it's the destruction of innocence. That's their sacrament. I see. So they get involved in these circles allegedly, and they, you know, sort of conduct that destruction of innocence. Yeah. I don't know how someone, I'm sure that it happens incrementally

or maybe some guys are just outright evil and into it. I don't know. That makes sense. Now, do you think that that element of the story is important or do you think it kind of disrides the whole thing as being a part of this satanic panic spread and kind of throws the whole thing out the window? I mean, if people read my book, the Franklin scale,

I've got plenty of documents. And with ritual abuse, I mean, I've got police reports on it. I've got notes from a psychiatric hospital on it. There's a tremendous amount of literature on ritual abuse if someone really wants to understand it. It's very strange. The Wikipedia talks about people ritualistically murdering people. I mean, that's in the way of it. So people can ritualistically murder people, but yet they're not going to ritualistically

children. It's kind of contradictory. Yeah, that's interesting. And I will say this, with the satanic panic, it swung very far. And then when it came back, it swung very far the other way. So, but there are examples of, there was a priest in Ohio of some years back who ritualistically murdered a nun. I mean, like, you know, put like five like daggers in her in the form of a pentagram. Oh, wow.

I mean, it happens. Right. It's out there. I mean, people are evil, can be evil. Right. Yeah. It just is an interesting part of the whole story to me to think, you know, were these guys in some way, you know, aware of this or were there just other occult people that were involved and why were they doing this? Like if they were just straight up, you know, like, why are they also involving themselves in the occult element? It just seems bizarre. I think that some, some of them were involved in the occult and with King, for sure, and we're into the destruction of innocence. And then some of them were involved in the occult. And then some of the.

Some are just... Yeah. Yeah, I think that's probably true. That makes sense. I mean, that's what I've concluded. Now, I wanted to ask you also about an individual, a child that was abducted named Johnny Gosh. Yes. Who has a really interesting kind of part with this type of topic.

So Johnny Gosh was abducted in the late 70s. Actually, in 1982. It was 82. Yeah. Oh, interesting. I thought it was 70s, excuse me. And disappears. And do you believe that there was any...

connection with this specific case? Where was Johnny Gosh abducted from? West Des Moines. Do you think he was connected to some type of trafficking or do you think it was just a... Okay, so Paul Bonassi, one of the Franklin victims, said that he took part in Johnny Gosha abduction. America's Most Wanted did five segments on the Johnny Gosh abduction. And Paul Sparrow, the producer, believes that Paul Bonassi knew. Johnny Gosh after Johnny Gosh was abducted. I found the house where they were there, well, actually, America's Most Wanted found the house. Paul told America's Most Wanted that there was a chamber below the house where the kids

would be stashed and it was near an elephant-shaped rock and then America's Most Wanted went there. And whose house was this? The guy who owned it at that point, his name was Charles Couch. And they found a chamber beneath the house where the kids would carve their initials. Now, I found Charles Crotch. He's living in New Mexico. And I tried to alert law enforcement to him. And one guy seemed like he was into it, but then he just backed away from it. But Charles Crouch has been kids sincerely since the early.

60s. And he took a sign and his wife's brother. I mean, and then he ended up in Colorado where he bought that house and he was a prison guard. Now, you cannot be a prison guard and be a felon. You just, you can't do it. So, and then he fled Colorado with warrants out for his, with warrants. And but then all of a sudden they were lifted. And I did a criminal background check on him.

And there isn't one count of child abuse in his criminal history. Interesting. In Colorado or New Mexico. And he's in Colorado's bad, New Mexico now. We could go visit him if you want to visit him. I'm okay. I think I'm actually, I think I'm busy that weekend. Okay.

But that chamber was part of the testimony from Benasi. Paul Benassi told America's most wanted that there was a chamber beneath house. Now, this individual was interesting, and he was a victim of the Franklin scandal. He came and he testified, did he speak with the main investigator? Yes. And so he was a victim and then later was complicit in sort of the, you know, capture and sort of recruitment of other children. Yes, he was these, both with Epstein and with the Franklin scandal, that kids, become scavengers. Like Epstein would pay someone $200 if they brought another kid.

Right. And that was the same thing with the Franklin scam. So he testifies that he, I shouldn't say testifies, he, I guess, admits that he captured Johnny Gosh and was a part of his. That he was part of the Johnny Gosh abduction. And then he was with Johnny Gosh in the basement of this home? Afterwards, yeah. And then his testimony says there's a underground chamber and then they find that there is some type of... Well, he told America's Most Wanted that there was an underground chamber, and then they went there and they found an underground chamber. Is it possible just a basement, or is it an underground chamber?

It's an underground chamber. I see. And did they find initials of... Yeah, the kids. That, and there was no investigation afterward that? No. Just like Charles Crouch doesn't have any counts of child abuse on his record. When he was... He started kids in the early 60s. There's evidence of this on the same?

I've got a newspaper article on it. I see. So. Did he face jail time for any of his? No. So, but there's a news article that's saying, oh, this guy. There's a news article. You can go to my website and check this stuff out.

There's a news article from 1963 dying about him and three kids. As a part of a police investigation or just a journalist that found it? It was an article about him getting indicted. But yet that indictment is. But yet those counts were lifted. bizarre. Yeah. Do you think it's possible he was connected to intelligence or used as an asset in some way?

I mean, how did he kids all those years? How did he have a house that had an underground chamber where kids were taken? Why did he flee Colorado with warrants off for him? What were the warrants? We don't have any of that information. Bizarre. And I've spent a lot of time looking into that guy. And there's no child abuse on his police records.

bizarre. It's pretty amazing. Now, Johnny Gosh's mother claims that he visited her. Yes. But much later, that after the abduction as, I guess, a teenager or a young adult, he came home and saw her. There's an article that was written by a CNN journalist named Thomas Lake that if people want to read about it, it's a pretty good article. So he gets abducted and just goes and sees his mother, and then that's... Do people write off that store?

Is that accepted as... Most people wrote her off because she's had some difficulties. But this CNN journalist felt her to be telling the truth, felt that she was telling the true. Interesting. Now, Lawrence King, the, I guess the main sort of linchpin of this entire scandal, he ends of going to prison for financial crimes. Ten years, yeah. And now is still alive.

Yeah. Actually, King was given like a no-show job at a BM dealership in Virginia. So the deal with King was keep your mouth shut and, you know, you'll be taken care of. Wow. King has tried to inveigle himself into Granville Academy, which is, it's not even a school. It takes children on field trips, lower socioeconomic children on field trips. lower socioeconomic children on field trips. And he was tried to inveigle himself into that.

I got him kicked out of that. You got him kicked out of it? Yeah. And then he tried to invade, and then he inveigled himself into the Washington Redskins event committee. I got him kicked out of that. Then he inveigled himself into opernova that does a number of things, but it helps with lower socioeconomic children giving them voice lessons.

I got him kicked out of that. Wow. Now he's in a church in Alexandria. that doesn't, Virginia, that doesn't want to kick him out. I've tried to get him kicked out of that. But that's how, that's how backwards this thing is, that a journalist has to protect kids from a super predator because the feds know what kind of a predator king is. But he's not on any registry or anything because he has no, no.

According to law enforcement, he's not a single kid. Wow. And now it seems like everyone that's been. involved with this case ends up not in a good spot. Like there's, you know, countless examples of this victim's sibling gets killed or the journalist dies with a plane crash. Alicia, Alicia brother, Alicia's brother was murdered, I believe that. I mean, there's like a laundry list of, you know, 10 to 15 people who have in some way met their demise. It seems like in, you know, some type of suspicious. There were a number of people that died with the Franklin scale. Now, I imagine a lot of these

people are still alive. Lawrence King, you know, is still working. He's still alive. He's living in, actually I got a picture of him. He visited Omaha about two months ago. I got a picture of him. Put it on Twitter. He must not like you. Well, you know, the thing about King is I called him up. You spoke to him?

Well, I called him up and he said he wasn't him. So the conversation, there wasn't much of an evolution with the conversation. Bizarre. I mean, are you worried that he might try to seek retribution against you in some way? I mean, I've been a thorn in his side forever. So if there was going to be retribution against me, I think it would have come by now. Yeah, the Franklin scandal is upsetting and frustrating, but I'm glad that, you know, there's someone out there brave enough to do the work to actually get into it

and morbid enough to, you know, go through all the dirt. I'm grateful for all your work. That individual is probably quite stupid, wouldn't you think? He's handsome, but he's very dumb. Extremely dumb.