Camp Gagnon - The UNSOLVED Murder of Journalist Who Exposed The Shadow Government | The Octopus Murders

Episode Date: July 22, 2025

Is there really a shadow government, and what is it? Zachary Treitz and Christian Hansen, two incredible journalists, join us today to discuss the workings behind a shadow government. We’ll discuss how the investigation came about that led to their Octopus series on Netflix, Ghislaine Maxwell’s father, the unsolved death of Danny Casolaro, the cover-up of the murder, and other interesting topics. WELCOME TO CAMP! 🏕️Shoutout to our sponsors: Odoo, Morgan & Morgan, and BlueChew Try Odoo with a 14-day free trial at: http://Odoo.com/CAMP👕🧢 GET YOUR CAMP DRIP HERE: http://camp-rd.com🏕️ Get Today In History Email Here (Free): https://camp.beehiiv.com/🎟️ 🎫 Comedy Tour Tickets Here: https://markgagnonlive.com/Timestamps0:00 Intro 1:08 Meet Zach and Christian 3:18 Beginning The Investigation 9:54 The Iran Contra Affair 22:22 Accusations of Being a Limited Hangout 28:00 Ghislaine Maxwell's Father 38:27 Ari-Ben Menashe 50:22 The Unsolved Death of Danny Casolaro 57:30 Suspects of The Murder 1:02:10 Are Hitmen Real? 1:06:25 Covering Up The Murder 1:10:15 Feeling Threatened While Investigating 1:20:38 New Evidence + Gerald Bull’s Supergun 1:37:04 Spin Off Series? + The Death of Jolly West

This is Zachary Trites and Christian Hansen. And together, they researched and directed one of the most interesting Netflix documentaries I have ever seen. American Conspiracy, The Octopus Murders. This is a four-part series that goes through the life and suspicious death of researcher Danny Casillero. And we go through everything from the Inslaught Promise Software Conspiracy and how foreign governments, or maybe our own government, was using it to spy on other governments from around the world. It has spycraft, espionage, murder, assassinations. We touch on JFK, we touch on the Iran-Contra affair, and how governments sometimes have to take out people that speak against them.

Zach and Christian are the best. They've been longtime friends, and so this episode has a very casual, fun energy where we just sit around and chop it up about some of my favorite conspiracy theories ever. And they have all the research and data to really back up why these things are even more credible than they may seem on the surface. So, I hope you enjoy this episode. as much as I enjoyed having it. So sit back, relax, and welcome to camp.

Zach and Christian, how are we? Great, how are you? I'm excellent. Thank you guys. Thanks for joining me. I really appreciate. This is going to be a lot of fun. Can I just get something out of the way?

Please, I was hoping you would. Me and Zach are about the same height. He's sitting on a cushion. So he looks taller. Yeah, he didn't know a lot. He didn't know a lot from Christian. The conspiracy goes deeper. You know what I mean?

It's like, how can we trust this guy's research? You want me to slouch? I just want to, like, set the table. I was curious, actually, before we even really begin, do you guys always match when you do these kinds of things? Yeah, we get up every morning. We sleep in the same bed, so I look over to him, and I say, look, I'm thinking blue T-shirt.

Oh, my gosh, I know. Yeah, same pants. Oh, my God. Bummer. Similar walk. Black band with the gold bezel? This is a timex. This is a vintage.

Some light just to flex on the people at home. But, no, it is weird. Like, we do end up showing up wearing, like, almost the same. The real problem is that we, people say on the phone that we sound the same. Interesting. So, or podcasts. Oh, is this environment. I can see.

Because we're both from Louisville. We grew up together. And it becomes, like, anything where people like, who, who just said that, you know? Yeah, yeah. Which. And, like, when we, we'll call sources together. and we'll be on speakerphone and it's like... Just one person dialed in.

Or a lot of times people being like, Christian, that sounds great. It's like, that was... Even some sources have... Or the... My number saved as Zach and your number saved as Christian. You grew up in Louisville

with our mutual friend Renan Hersberg. Yes. Yeah, I went to high school with Ron. Yeah. He's like a year older than me, I think. Yeah. Brilliant comedian. Yeah, it was really funny.

It was hilarious in high school. Now, you said when we were on Texas, that you were schvitzing. Are you Jewish as well? No, no. It just sounds weird to say. You get that from on the outside? Is that where you got there from?

Yeah. He's been in New York too long, dude. That's what happens. You grew up in New York. You just start schlepping everywhere. You know what I mean? It just happens. Now, if people don't know, you guys are the proprietors of a wonderful documentary series

that came out on Netflix about a year ago. American Conspiracy, the Octopus Murders, which is fascinating. And it kind of ties in every sort of element of, like, like I think what people really enjoy about conspiracies, you know what I mean, like uncovering the truth, sort of like a silenced hero that was on his way to breaking this whole case open and sort of the mystery around his murder, which is fascinating. I would love to talk about like updates as that goes. Zach, you directed it and Christian, you were sort of the lead investigator that kind of was really tied together the web of all the details of the story. I'm curious, how do you

even get involved in this type of a project? Where does it start? I mean, it's like, I mean, I've told us, we don't, you know, we try to make the film as efficient as possible. So we didn't, we talk a lot about how I'm Zach's crazy friend and I got obsessed with this story. But we, we don't say how. So like every podcast, everyone's like, so how did you get into it? I'm like, wish we would have put it in the movie because then, you know. But I also, I know why we didn't because it's such a, it's so random. It's like I was researching the private prison industry.

And this company Wacken Hut was the second biggest private prison company. By the time I started looking into it, it had changed just named a geo group. But, you know, I was just sort of like 2 a.m., like doing research. for this paper, like college paper, like, why is this company called Wackenhut? That's such a weird name. What the fuck is Wackenhut? And then just kind of started like looking into this company and like it had this, I mean, whatever it was doing in the private prison space like came way later. It was founded in the, I think in the 50s by this ex-FBI guy. And it's also unclear whether he was an actual agent or if he was the

like the P.E. guy, right? The physical education, you know, keeping the agents in shape. Interesting. Either way. George Wackenhut. George Wackenhut. He moves down to South Florida and with a couple of other guys, they

found this private security company and they had really good connections in like the local Republican conservative government and they were getting like state contracts and eventually they, you know, there was some like, all this anti-communist stuff they were doing, like getting files on communists and kind of illegal research that the government couldn't do, like they could do like shady.

I think at one point they had the largest collection of files on private citizens. Interesting. In America. And this was like 60s, 70s time. Yeah. Got it. And, you know, and then eventually they have, you know, huge. national contracts. They've got offices all over the globe. They've got there, they guard NASA

facilities. They guard the like area 51, you know, area in Nevada. Did they do Los Alamos too? I forget. I can't remember. But they have like those kind of like big contracts like that. And and then they also, the board of directors is, uh, all of these like department heads from the NSA, the Air Force, the CIA, you know, and it's sort of like bigwigs at these agencies kind of roll out into the private sector, being on the board of the directors, and filtering contract, presumably filtering contracts from their old agency. And then like, the allegation would be like whatever the CIA or whatever agency can't do or won't do.

Prairie work. You can't FOIA a private security company. Like their files are private for. And so they would do stuff that the CIA maybe wouldn't want to be attached to. So they were kind of like a cover for those type of things. Then, you know, I'm just still like digging into this company. And I find like an article in Spy Magazine about this journalist who was looking into Wacken Hut among other things.

Like, and all these things I knew nothing about it. I didn't know anything about the Iran-Contra affair. I mean, barely anything. And then this thing called the October Surprise and then this, you know, spy software called Promise and this company called Inslau that developed it and their problems with the government. And, you know, I thought that it was like a fan fiction. I ran Contra thing because it was all just so insane. But the article was really well researched and it names names and everything checked out. everybody that they were talking about was real.

And like, apparently this journalist named Danny Castellero, who, you know, had died looking into all this stuff, like, was real. And your crazy ass was like, I'll do the same thing. Yeah. Well, no, I was like, this guy, like, and then the more I kind of learned about the guy, like, I was like, this guy's pretty cool. And the story that he was writing seems exciting and interesting. And, like, it just sort of, like, literally died on the vine. like when he died and it's like, like, I don't know. I was like, I should write a book.

I should write the book that he never wrote and I should write a book about him. And so I just kind of started. And you were doing this full well knowing that he had died under some mysterious circumstances. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, that's like, you know, the start of every kind of magazine article about him is about his mysterious death. You start with the death scene and then you, you know, backtrack. to like how he got to that hotel room.

Fascinating. So you kind of go on the same sort of journey that Danny went on. And then you get to his part and you're like, oh shit. He's found dead in a hotel room. You know, wrist cut deep to the tendons on both arms in a bathtub alone.

Yeah. And that is sort of like the precipitating factor that then leads to people digging into his story but then also trying to dig into his research as well. Yeah. I see. Yeah. So I guess just for context,

for the audience that doesn't know, Could you explain Iran-Contra and kind of how that ties in with, like, promise and what Danny was ultimately trying to uncover? I know this is obviously— In 30 words or less. Yeah, 30 words or less. I know this is obviously the main bulk of this four-part documentary series that's on Netflix. But, you know, just for the audience to kind of be abreast as we go forward in the conversation. Okay.

After a July 4th weekend, let's see here. If I can, like, get my brain in order. So, I mean, Iran Contra is actually pretty difficult to explain because there's something called a limited hangout, which is where you cop to less than what was really going on. But the less seems so egregious, like it's this big admission. And but in order by copping to the less bad thing that's also bad, you caught, you kind of are. able to obfuscate or cover up all this other shit that was going on. It's like the lying by omission almost. And so the Ira and Contra story for me is so big.

It's like I'm like wondering like where I even. Well, that's hard. That's like the hardest start to an Iran and Contra thing because you haven't even started with like what the normal story is, which is already so hard to do because it's almost like two interrelated but very distant places. Iran And Nicaragua And but Nicaragua

But also Costa Rica and like It's that whole area But it's like ostensibly Nicaragua And then you've got like What's going on with like weapons sales What's going on with like Us wanting to influence the like

Politics of Nicaragua Like using Israel as a conduit for For selling like munitions to Our quote unquote enemies in Iran, which had just become like a quote unquote, like rogue nation or whatever. After the years of CIA tampering in the... We're not doing any... Basically, it's, I mean, as far as I know, and can cobble together, it's like,

in the middle of the Reagan administration, there was a small group mainly run out of the National Security Council using Oliver North. who was a Marine Lieutenant Colonel, or Colonel, I forgot, to try to accomplish multiple things at once outside of the mainstream of what Congress would allow. So Congress said, hey, Reagan administration, no more meddling in, like, Central American. It was a Democrat majority of Congress. Yeah, no more meddling with like their elections and, trying to like do like CIA operations down there and all that stuff we're cutting off all the

funding and it's illegal if you do it and so so they're like we'll just raise the money ourselves yeah so they were like okay well how do we get like money and supplies down to uh like our freedom fighters who are like you know hanging out just over the border in like Costa Rico or whatever and that we're training and it's like okay well we're going to like sell a bunch of weapons through I believe mostly through Israel to Iran use that money to then funnel it to people we were supporting trying to overtake the the newly installed regime in in Nicaragua. Interestingly, both of those countries had turned against the United States in 1979. Yeah.

I think that's what's like kind of an interesting like parallel between the two of them. Right. But otherwise they're like, the Shah falls in Iran and 79. Yeah. Right. But also, okay. But then it was like journalists like like Bob Perry and other journalists started to write about these specifically in Central America. these like illegal weapons sales like you know they're documenting you know military transport or like air

America like CIA proprietary planes going into Central America and army these people and you know the the government's official stance and Reagan is going on TV and his fireside chat saying this is not happening like it's simply not this is a lie I don't you know then this um transport plane with this guy named Eugene Hassanfuss, who was a used to do, he was a paratrooper, I think, in Vietnam, and then he was retired. He was working construction in Milwaukee. And like, the economy was really bad at that time. And he was, so he got a job for this company to do air drops down in Central America. And one of the things that they said, like, part of his, like, agreement when he was hired on was that you can't bring a parachute. And he smuggled his own parachute

on the plane. And a Sandinista, which was like the left wing group in that the right wing dudes were fighting in Nicaragua shot down his plane with like a shoulder rocket. And he parachuted down. Everybody else died and they captured him. And so it was like obvious that, you know, and he started talking. Like they were like, you know, he, he, they couldn't keep lying about what was going on in Nicaragua anymore. Right. And so by the late 80s, I mean, this is only part of the story. And there's also a guy, Barry Seal.

They made that movie American made with Tom Cruise about he was, that's all, because there's this whole drug smuggling component to it. There's also like the hostages thing that happens. Like Iran withholds hostages to help help. Oh, that's, yeah, sorry. But that's when I think that Iran Contra really started. Oh, there were other hostages in Lebanon. There was the second hostage crisis happening during, yeah, man, people are going to assail us for like our shitty version of like the Iran Contra.

It's the July, dude. We were all having a great time this weekend, you know? Yeah. Celebrating American independence. Yeah. Yeah. Well, whatever. The October surprise, which we get.

into it which was like the lead into the administer like could be considered like the one of the reasons that Reagan got elected surreptitiously um is an interesting parallel and there's also kinds of interesting parallels of like this network that was that was discovered in in what 86 hosenfus goes down 85 86 maybe 87 um our show is largely in danie's investigation is largely about similar parallel operations with the same group of people. I mean, he talks about Iran-Contra, but the stuff that was happening in the years and decades before that, that it basically set up the template for Iran-Contra,

which is that you have a bunch of dudes in the government and outside of the government, who used to work with the government, working together to funnel money in arms to place, and people who they want to support that are being supported outside of like U.S. law, right? Right. So it's happening in the Cabazon desert with people who became involved with Iran-Contra, when part of our story that takes place in Southern California. It's happening with allegedly with the hostages that were taken in Iran during the takeover

the embassy, which was used allegedly to, you know, tilt the favor against Jimmy Carter in the U.S. presidential election in 1980. And then even before that in the 70s, like parallel operations. So it's like basically about a network of people who do shit for money in politics. Specifically at the behest of the U.S. governments who do regime change or coup d'etat tas. Sometimes, yes, sometimes. No, I think that they also, some of these jobs are, little get rich quick schemes you know it doesn't matter and they're doing it on their own

accord I think it does have international repercussions but certainly there's middle men along the way getting rich the whole time right yeah what's up guys we're going to take a break really quick because I want you to know that there are still good people in the world

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Let's get back to the show. So there's a whole confluence of power and money that is kind of creating this web. And Danny Costellero at this time in the late 80s, you know, of the American society's sort of done the wiser to kind of how the U.S. affairs and how the CIA sort of operates in these different countries. And he's kind of piecing together this story. Uh-huh. And he's also, maybe we could bring it back to how you originally started, which is you were like a limit, the concept of a limited hangout, right? Which comes from the Nixon administration, right? But Dan, you know, it's like all this stuff was known that we know now about our rencontro had already come up by 1990, 1990 when Danny started this investigation. Yeah.

But what he's writing about and what people, I think, subsequently wrote about and were correct is, is what I was saying, like these larger networks that this is actually. part of a larger pattern. It goes back years and involves the same crimes, the same criminals. And that in that view, Iran Contra itself was a limited hangout. Coincidentally, sometimes people say that our show is a limited hangout. Because they, it's a concept that, like, it's hard to, you know, just prove a negative. Like, it's, it's just a hall of mirrors. Well, and it touches a lot of the, um, the,

like octopus as it exists on you know Reddit or wherever online like there are other tendrils and tentacles and storylines and subplots and plots that we weren't able to fit in to a four episode show and so because our favorite part or their because their favorite parts of the case like didn't get featured like we must be

something they read about somewhere didn't get featured it's like well these guys are like one of them that I saw the other day it was on IMDB it's like obviously a limited hangout but informative nonetheless interesting so wasn't that obvious they're accusing of just being like disinformation agents that you guys are kind of leading people down

like a limited truth yeah that we're just like kind of covering up for our like handlers back at the agency which would be awesome if it were true yeah you guys don't strike me as as agency guys to be honest Agency guys never strike his agency guys. That's the point of agency guys.

Oh, that's a good point, dude. Oh, man, we got a trick. You guys have lines all the way back to Langley. I already know it. You're already tapped in. Yeah. I mean, I'm curious, like, I wonder if being on Netflix also impacts that. Like, I wonder if people see Netflix and they go, oh, this is a sanitized thing.

I think so. I think so. Studio notes that tell them not to go too far, da-da-da. Is any of that true? I mean, I thought it was really, I mean, our executives that we worked with were, I mean, we were trying to make the show make sense to a broad audience. It's a complicated story. It's a complicated story.

And really, like, the executives were like, well, we don't understand it. So you guys understand it. So do the thing, but just make it good, you know? And make it understandable. That was usually what they were asking for, which is like make it understandable. Yeah, of course. is extremely difficult. Yeah, with like a true crime case, it's like pretty clear.

You know what I mean? It's like this woman got murdered and these are the three suspects and let's figure out who done it. You know what I mean? But something like this, it's like an interconnected web that's already quasi-conspiratorial on its face plus a death that is also inherently conspiratorial. And then multiple deaths that are tied to that he's investigating. And then like not talking about like, oh, just like a year of time, not talking about a decade. time, but it eventually goes into like multiple decades.

Yeah. It's just like, well, what is this story even? You know, like what hell is so diffuse, right? Yeah. But what is kind of exciting about it is like that feeling, that feeling of being like lost in this like what Angleton famously called the wilderness mirrors is that I think that we actually do kind of capture that feeling, which is is meant to be in, I hope we do. This is meant to be invoked by actual operations. Right. as they happen, which is like infinite layers of deniability and obfuscation.

It's also interesting to think about it from Danny Castellaro's perspective because he, like, Anne Klank, who's his friend and she's in the film, she's like always reminds us that he was a suburban dad in D.C., you know, in the suburbs of D.C. And he's like, you know, it's 1990. Eugene Hassanfuss was shot down four years earlier. I mean, this stuff's like, fresh. And, you know, he's just, like, driving around D.C. And it's, like, he's, like, kind of in the, in the thick of it, you know, with, like, actual spies lurking around that he kind of meets and whatever.

I mean. Well, and he's, we never really even dwell on this in the show. It's like he's born in McLean, Virginia, which is where the CIA is, you know? And Angleton, who you mentioned earlier was his neighbor growing up, James Jesus Angleton, like a. Oh, really? Really legend. And he had friends who were in NSA. Yeah.

I mean, we, there's, it is a limited hangout in that I wish we had been able to go into so many things, you know? Yeah, I'm curious. I guess why we come on. We did tell ourselves, like, we can go on to podcasts when it's done and, like, tell all the rest of the stories we didn't get to fit in. Yeah, I don't know if we've really done that. Yeah, I mean, open forum, like, before we jump to, like, Danny and, like, sort of his death and the fallout from that, what are the details from the doc that didn't make it? If there was an episode, you know, six, seven, eight, what other threads and tendrils would be discussed? I mean, there's so much stuff.

And we're working on a spinoff. Well, we'd like to do more on it. But, like, the things like, we haven't even talking about stuff in the desert, but things that Danny was looking into at the Cabazon Indian Reservation and things that, like, Doc Nichols got into. And, yeah, what is that? And, and Phil Thompson. Uh-huh. Oh, God, there's like so many. There's also the, you know, well, there's the, the boat in Majorca, you know, the Lady Galane.

Oh, I've heard of her. Yeah, because that is a big, okay, yeah, that's a good place to start, right? Because it's like, tell me about Robert Maxwell. Right, right. He starts with, Danny started with Promise Software. And there's a whole other way that we could have taken it and been much more topical, successful. where the promise software that he's investigating, because he's in D.C.,

that company Inslaw, which made the promise software, is in D.C. Skybill Hamilton that owns the company is in D.C. And they're going into all this stuff about, oh, my software was stolen by the Justice Department, used this spy software, repackaged, hacked with the backdoor, and now it's being used all over the world to, like, you know, spy on people.

and other intelligence agencies and corporations and whatever, right? And then if we had gone, it's so confusing because you get this guy, Michael Rikhanasuto, and he brings the story kind of out to the desert and with what was going on out there in California. But there's another way you can go with it, which is the Maxwell angle. Right. But we were telling Danny's story and Danny was fascinated by what was happening in the desert. And Robert Maxwell was still a lot. Like, Danny died in August 1991.

Robert Maxwell died in November 1991. So, like, that should be really quickly just talking about who Robert Maxwell was. Uh-huh. Right? So it's like he's a publishing magnate at the time who was, I don't know, born in like Czechoslovakia, right? But he lived in London in the UK. Yeah. And, but he had ties to almost.

Well, Israel at least. He's buried in Israel. He was Jewish and he was like the kind of this power broker much in the mold of what we think of is like Rupert Murdoch now. He's a publisher. They were competitors. But he, he, we know, was faring information between different countries, right? I mean, would you say we know that? Like there's that.

Robert Maxwell is like super sponsoring. affirmed that he was a spy, I think. But because he had access to like, he could talk to people in the USSR at the time in the 70s and 80s. This is how the story goes. He could like move between these different worlds because he was a larger than life figure. One of the, it's like Earl Brian who was a, there's another, this American publishing guy who we mentioned in our show was in charge of the, or allegedly in charge of the distribution of promise for the United States. Israel was also involved and their version of Earl

Brian, their publisher that's using you know, that's distributing the software for them supposedly is Robert Maxwell and his daughter is Gilaen Maxwell who was Jeffrey Epstein's

girlfriend and confidant yeah. Yeah. But two more facts about Robert Maxwell. That's interesting. Number one, he only wiped his ass with actual towels. Like, never toilet paper. That's true? Well, or often.

Okay. That was like something that I don't remember that one. Reading along the way. In hotel or at his home? No, I think at his home. At hotels, you can kind of look past it. How about on that boat? I wonder about the boat.

It's like, what are you doing on it? His boat was named the Galang. Lady Galane. Right. So take us to the boat. What happens to this guy? So 1991. He suffers like allegedly a, what, a heart attack or something?

He went overboard. Body gone, I think, right? Yeah. And then. Yeah, I believe he falls overboard and drowns. It's just my understanding. I thought it was like cardiac arrest, but maybe it's, well, the combination, your heart eventually stops at some point.

So, and one of the, you know, like I'm picturing footage of his funeral. And I'm picturing a closed casket, but maybe there was, I don't know if there's a body or not. But one of the, it turned out that he had been doing this like pension front fraud at the time. And he was like, his empire was kind of going under under at the time. And I think his son or sons went to jail. Uh-huh. Or were definitely indicted for being a part of that at the time.

So there was this whole like, well, he may be committed suicide or like he knew it was the end because like the jig was up on his, his like fraud that he had been perpetrating for a long time. And his media publishing empire was in a lot worse shape than he made it seen, right? Right. Then there's this thing. There's this whole other theory that like Mossad took him out on the boat and that it was all potentially even tied to like his dissemination of the promise software. And there was there was like a spy named Rafi Itan who who claimed that he had been involved with the not the assassination, but distribution of software. And that he was maybe like a double agent. like Robert Maxwell was maybe playing both sides.

Playing all sides, yes, I believe. Well, I mean, he would never be on like the U.S.'s side, I don't think. One of my great regrets, just as an aside, this guy that he mentioned, Rafi Itan, is like this legendary Israeli spy. He got Adolf Eichmann out of Argentina. That was his big operation. But he's also called Rafi the Stinker. Not that I'm like totally fascinated by scatological stuff,

but he was called Rafi the Stinker. For what reason? Because some operation he was involved with involved him going through the sewer. Gross. Whoa. I mean, that's kind of fucked up, right? Like, you do this whole thing for your nation, and then they call you the stinker. You know what I mean?

It's like, dude, like, I'm willing to go through shit for my people. Yeah, literally. You know what I mean? No. And then he, so, you know, through a third party, I got information that he said, supposedly, that his greatest, achievement as a spy was the backdoor and the distribution of the promise software. So it would be a major coup to get him to like confirm it for sure because it's like some

affidavit, you know, that some author had him signed, but it's like, let's hear him say. Fascinate. I got his cell number and I, or we got it. You know, I have a friend out in Israel who somehow knew somebody who knew his neighbor. or whatever. It's all country, you know. Number. And, but then, you know, I wanted to have my ducks in a row, you know, and so put off calling

him to do a little bit more research and then he died. Whoa. Month later. So you never know what state he was in, you know, when I finally got the number, but I do regret not just calling him. Damn, this must have been pretty recent, right? No, this was a long time ago. It was like 2018, 2019.

Wow. It was like when we were first starting the dock, really. And it was like, kind of kicked us into gear of like, okay. We got to move. All these people are old as hell. There will be more people who die while we make this. And that was true. Right.

You know, and it's like you just got to like go when the story's this old. Tell me when you say, oh, we could have gone the Robert Maxwell angle. It would have been topical kind of tied into, you know, obviously Epstein and that whole. you know, scandal, that whole ring that went on, which turns out he killed himself,

by the way. You guys saw the news, right? Yeah, Cash Patel and Bonino said that he killed himself. Oh, is that just like the other day

or today or something? Yeah, so on the book. So RIP to him and we wish him well. But how does that tie in with what, you know, Danny Costellero was working on directly? Was that a part of the octopus?

Oh, the promise distribution, the software that got Danny started on the whole thing, the allegation would be that Maxwell was distributing it internationally, where Earl Bryan was doing it sort of domestically. Or he was doing it. They divided up the... Or he was doing it for Israel.

Sorry. Right. Maxwell was selling it for Israel. Brian for the United States. All righty. Don't skip forward, guys, because I am on the road. World's Fastest Ad Read coming at you. I'm going to be at Stanford, Levittown, Chandler, Arizona, San Diego.

I'm also going to be adding Toronto, Montreal, as well as Washington, D.C., and a bunch of other dates. Dates are in the description, also in probably the comments of this episode. Go see me on the road. Come hang out. I'll be hanging out with everyone after the show. Come shake my hand. Call me an idiot.

Whatever you want to do, I will be there. Additionally, I will be doing my one hour of stand-up comedy. I'm very proud of this hour. I'm really excited to share it with you guys, and it would mean the world if everyone could come on out. And what do you wear to a show on the road? That's a great question. You can go to camp goods. That's right.

We got merch. We got camp merch. We got hats, hoodies, t-shirts. A lot of stuff is out of stock. Things have been selling like hot cakes, but we're going to be restocking everything and all the sizes so you can go there right now. Get all the merch, get all the coolest clothing

and the podcast game. We're going to be updating that site regularly. And if you come out to a show, I'd love to see you sporting some of the threads that we got up online. I'll see you guys there. Let's get back to the show. So was the consolidation of the promise software?

Was there one singular governing body that was able to access all the information? Was that U.S. intelligence? Was it a joint venture? I mean, this is the sort of like, screwy allegation. But like the idea, if you believe the allegations, would be that, you know, U.S. intelligence NSA would have the ability to access, like, everybody else's thing.

But then if you believe the other side of it, the Maxwell side of it, then you'd believe that like Mossad or whatever, Israel would have access to all that stuff. Presumably they'd be more interested in what's going on in their neighborhood. You would think. Or it's some type of joint venture. You know, we do talk about that. I mean, it's not like we don't mention Israel having promise, like this other guy who we don't get into.

Here's a good person we don't get into. Ari bin Manashi. Mm-hmm. We talk about him, but there's so much like a world. I mean, he's still live. Yeah. There's such a world of interesting stuff around that guy. It was like a, a intelligence operative for Israel, not necessarily a Mossad, but ideas.

part of the IDF who is now living in Canada as what seems like an arm stealing kind of guy public relation consulting consulting

who who Danny talked to from our story about about like promise which we mentioned but he also like at the time had just gotten himself

out of a year-long prosecution sitting in the, actually sitting in the same jail, not to be like this guy, but sitting in the same jail that Epstein died in downtown. He spent a year fighting the U.S. government with a public defender saying, I, like, he had, the allegation was like that he had sold three C-130s or something like that, three planes to, like, our enemies, quote-unquote, like, North. Korea, I think, or Iran or something like that. I can't remember who. But they arrested him on, on like, you know, weapons and or like material, you know, illegal selling of, of weaponry. He sits in that jail for a year, gets a public defender, and manages to get himself over the course of like, what, an 89 to 90, right before Danny talks to him, he, he spends like a year fighting that and wins. He gets the court to like ask Israel like are you or whatever his lawyers ask Israel like has this guy ever worked in intelligence?

They're like, oh, no, no, no, no. Then he produced a translator. He was a low level translator. Then he produced his documents saying, oh, no, he worked for Israeli intelligence for IDF. And then they're like, oh yeah, like he did. And he like produces his passport. It's like this thick with him going to like North Korea and like all this stuff. And so eventually his defense was I was just working.

working for my country. And they hung it out to dry. So now he's just like pissed and in talking. Wow. That seems messy. You know, like he wrote a book called, I cannot remember what it would be able to find it. But it's a, it's not God's of war.

What's like? Prophets of war. Prophets of war. P-R-O-F. Hmm. idea. he um in in the book he said there's a chapter on the promise software and he's like yeah you know it came out that you know Michael this guy Michael Rekhanna Shuto said that the software was um

the back door was installed on the Cabazon reservation like I know about the Cabazon reservation it wasn't out there it was actually my guy like yeah Israeli American guy that he knew in like Southern California yeah who and he names him and so you know me and Zach were like got the movie contract we got to figure out as much as we possibly can about I mean or whatever obviously we got to figure out this whole story so we go to this guy's house to be like yo did you uh install the back door on the promise software we got his wife his wife was the only one that would talk to us yeah I think she put him on like speaker like she got him on the phone somehow

But basically, like, she was just, like, laughing. She was just like, Harry, like, you're believing that guy? Like, he, like, stayed at our house one time. Yeah. Like, my husband has, like, no idea how to, like, hack software like that. But then at a certain point, you're like, who knows? Who do we believe? You know, who do you believe when you deal with all this stuff?

And that's the sort of whole problem with the octopus and that Danny had and that we had is, like, where do you draw the line between, like, who you believe? who you don't, when you don't have like, you know something happened. Something happened. Either there's a disinformation campaign happening or something very bad and dark happened or the combination of the two. And it's chied up within like lies and liars.

And you're trying to weed through, you know, sort through all the weeds. And then you have to say like, what happened? Right. And at some point, you're just like, we, no one knows, really. And we were up front about that. Like, we were up front about the,

limitations of our investigation. And I think we were also really up front that we, like, really took it as, like, further than anybody else. And, you know, like, I saw some criticism of us for not including a series of ex-girlfriends of Danny's, like, talking about their theories about what happened to them. And it's like, they didn't ask this girl what she thought. And it's like, she wasn't there. Yeah.

She doesn't know. She has an opinion, but I don't, we're not, we can't do that much. Which I think is actually. I mean, their opinions matter. Everybody's opinion matters, but it'll just confuse, you know. Which I think is credit actually to the work that you guys did, that it's not hyper sensational, right? Like, you could have gone in a direction that was like, this guy did it and this is why and this is what he was uncovering and this is who's implicated and made like very clear lines and like drawn smoking guns. obviously we know documentary filmmakers can make things seem very, very compelling.

And it seems like you guys kind of went in a much more sort of journalistic and, in my opinion, like a more honest approach. Like, hey, there's a bunch of different theories. We're tying it together the best we can. And this is more or less what, you know, the conclusion that you guys can draw from it is. Yeah. Which, I mean, maybe for a lot of America is maybe unsatisfying because they're like. Yeah, I think it's unsatisfying for people, which is understandable because we were never like. we were never satisfied.

We were like changing things to pass the deadlines of like when we were in color grade swapping out things trying to like push the investigation further, you know, like already seven years. Seven years into this project. And it's like, you know, we wanted to know the answer to every single question we asked. Of course. Well, maybe we could have. There's a thing, you know, that you can do with framing that I think we should, we could have done better, which is at least.

for our own sanity, which is like set the goalposts a little lower, you know, and like make clear like how many things we introduced into the public that had never been seen before and make a bigger deal out of that. Like the pictures that you're seeing are crime scene photographs that no one has had access to before ever because we foyered them. We fought for those. We got them. Nobody has seen that stuff. The police audio. The police audio. The police audio, all these like characters that you're hearing, nobody has ever heard those recordings outside of sometimes law enforcement, sometimes like journalists who are now dead, but like they'd never been public before. So it's like if I guess if you're like inside baseball and

you know this stuff, it would be extremely exciting to you. But that club is pretty small. It's like us and a few people and they're already disgruntled because they didn't make the documentary. Sure. So, but anyway, what I'm trying to say is. like I think that we did solve a bunch of, this is sounding so self-serving, but like, we, we tried to capture the feeling of going on the adventure that Danny went on with the benefit of 30 years hindsight and taking it as far as we could pass the limits that we were given and do it somewhat responsibly like you said. And I think that like when it comes to like what's going on with when you go all the way back to like, okay, we've talked about murders and so, Southern California that Danny was trying to solve. Murder in San Francisco that he was trying to solve. Which I think that we pushed those way further than has ever been public before.

Some of us think that we solved it. Some of us think that it's open-ended, you know, between the two of us, but we're pushed it really far. And then you come back to Danny. And it's like, what happened to this guy? You know, was it Robert Nichols? Was it Joe Quayar? Did he just kill himself? which is always a possibility, of course.

Like, the stuff that we presented on that had never been published before about inconsistencies in the federal and local narrative. Right. And it's like, well, when you have inconsistencies, it's a matter of like, is it meaningful or not, right? And some of these are meaningful in a way that's like, doesn't make sense. Could Joe Quayar have, I mean, I guess this is like a sort of spoilers alert thing, but it's been announced a year or so, whatever. Could Joe Quayar have been hiding stuff

because he was involved with intelligence and you just inherently hide stuff? Yeah, quite possibly. Was he the kind of guy who has, you know, eliminated people for other operations, I think quite likely? So it's like the fact that they were talking so close to the end of Danny's life

that Danny told people that he was going to meet him in West Virginia. I don't know. A lot of that stuff just hadn't. I've like had really been. I've wondered, I mean, not with no basis, just flight of fancy. If it was, you know, what if it was like a like an op, like a training operation? Like, let's see if we can actually kill a journalist and make it seem like a suicide. And like, let's like, let's try it in the field.

And like he's like an unaffiliated journalist. And, you know, like he's like kind of poking. around he's kind of got it you know and just like let's see if we can like get in get out make it clean or that's very dark yeah but i mean who knows who knows right i mean i don't actually think that but that's just like you know laying at bed at night like wondering like what what happened you know so you mentioned a discrepancy between the two of you perhaps as far as like who you think maybe actually did kill danny well no we were talking about the palmaraska murder and i feel like when you see in episode three. I make this case for who did it and why. And, you know, I think he's likely. Yeah.

And so I like to say I solved it. Zach likes to say, did you solve it? I think, yeah, you know, he's like, you know, he's bully. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, he's so big. I mean, he's so much bigger than you. I know, I mean, like, he's feeding up on it. Four inches taller than you, as the audience can see. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I'm curious, like, with the death of Danny, he's getting these calls three, four in the morning, you know, people just saying like, hey, drop dead, hang up, random radio on the other side, hang up, like shit from like a horror movie, right?

Like, like just these ominous looming phone calls as confirmed by his housekeeper at the time. Various people. All of this is leading up to his eventual death, which has been ruled a suicide by two different coroner reports. I'm curious in the sort of fallout from this and as the documentary has been released. It's weird when you're so, like, aware of the possibility that you will mysteriously die and you're getting death threats regularly, it's weird to then mysteriously die, you know?

Right. Obviously, I mean, that's kind of what the movie is about. You're just saying he, if that happened, he was doing the most of. No, it sort of like, you know, like, it makes you think like, well, no shit. Like, it was a murder. by pros, you know, just because of that, well, who was doing, who was threatening? Who were making those calls, you know?

That was another difficult thing. Like, we got his phone records. No, we didn't get his phone records. We got his phone bills. So only, we only know the long distance calls that he was making. They don't, you don't get charged at that point for your local calls in D.C. and Northern Virginia, which is like where all this shit was going down.

So there's a huge blind spot in like, and nobody, I mean, it's impossible for us now, but nobody at the time, like petitioned the phone company, subpoenaed it to get like, you know,

because like this, this friend of Danny's bin, he could have remembered what, he was standing next to Danny when this call came in. It was like a threat call. And Danny just goes, just make it quick, brother.

And like hangs it up. according to Ben, that's what happened. And, you know, so he could remember, he could tell the police, like, on this date at around this time, like, what are the numbers that are coming at? Who are these people that are calling? You know what I mean? Or, like, aren't the, like, long distance records that we got? Isn't it, like, up until just, like, two days before he dies also? Yeah.

And then, like, somehow, like, the police didn't get the records. There's another bill that would have come. So, like, I think it cuts off, like, a week out. And then, so, like, the last week. Yeah, I think even like the last two or three days. Right. Like that was so frustrating. You know, it's like we petition, we FOIA to get all the records in the police department in West Virginia where he died.

And we're sort of like at that point, it's like, we're going to, you know, this is going to have everything, you know. And then you're like, damn, you guys didn't even like ask for all the bills. Like, yeah. Another thing on that note. The most crucial 48 hours. Like, yeah. Danny smoked Carlton, menthol 100s from like the age of 13 until the age of 44 when he passed away. And he had a carton or like a half carton of Carlton's with him in West Virginia.

And there were Carlton cigarettes in the ashtrays, in the ashtrays in the bathroom and in the main part of the suite. and there were two Marlboro cigarette butts and supposedly nobody else was in the room with them nobody has said they were in the room with them and you know why would you smoke two Marlboros if you're if you smoke Carlton's and have plenty of cigarettes

and that's yeah why would you bum Marlbrose off somebody right or wouldn't it be cool to like test Test those marlboroughs for DNA. But why would you test if it was obviously a suicide? Right. And so then when we showed up at that law firm and that guy's like, we have no physical evidence, no cigarette butts because we asked for,

we wanted to get, we wanted to test the cigarette butts, but they threw them away. So there's like 30 years later, there's so many, it's so hard when it was already hard, you know. Things that seem obvious in the moment, like, oh, they would have obviously. gone through and done their due diligence to test you know test it. They might not have had DNA. No, they had DNA. Do they have it then? Yeah, because think about when like Phil went to jail.

That was like 2000. Oh, really? No, but they had. I think it would have been like just before DNA would have been using court because I think OJ was like 94 or 95, something like that. And I think that was. I Google it when you can speculate. Yeah, exactly. Right.

But either way, the, it wasn't even considered a. a homicide. So it was like kind of a miracle that the records even still existed in what we got, except for it was such a crazy case for the police department. It was like the biggest case they ever dealt with. Right. Wrongful, you know, unattended, unattended death is what they call it, right? So they kept it just kind of out of, I don't know why, curiosity or some feeling of obligation.

But their lack of candor is bizarre. I mean, like, the lead detective from that investigation in 1991, I don't know about today, but at the time we were putting together the film, he was the chief of police of the town. And he won't let any of his, you know, there were like a team of probably like five to seven police officers that did various tasks on the investigation, including this guy. and he kind of made it clear, don't talk, don't talk about this case. We're not talking about it. There's nothing to be said,

and we tried to talk to, I mean, it would be amazing to have a candid conversation with this guy, just like, you know, just like hearing about all the, like, things that he did that were helpful. Like, he did discover some things

and have interesting conversations with people on it. I would love to hear the perspective of a small town, police detective who's like investigating this case of this guy from out of town who's caught up and all this international intrigue i mean it must have been fascinating for them and your outreach to them results in nothing they were burned by the media i understand i feel like i understand it of just like it it has never helped us in the past to talk to the media why would it help now you know like we got burned by everybody saying that we were part of a cover up and then like now we're going to like open this thing up again and we're going to like open this thing up again we're going to going to get seen as a bunch of like small town knuckleheads who don't know how to investigate a case like I've solved right thousand cases why am I getting persecuted over this one you know but like as far as a suspect you you lay out how many of them are still alive and are you concerned about

you know how you've represented them in the documentary like what is your you're feeling on that now the main two suspects for me are Robert booth Nichols who is supposedly dead and you Joe Quayar who is dead. Mm-hmm. But, yeah. I mean, I don't know about concerned with how we portrayed them, but it's like,

would have been awesome to talk to Joe Quayar. He was alive when Christian started this thing. And, like, it was another one of those things where it was like, you know, I was scared to talk to him and what do I say anyway? Like, hey, did you, like, kill this dude or like, what? Was there, were there any details about

Joe Kui are that were not included in the doc or anything that you guys uncovered that you couldn't fully substantiate but you kind of speculated on there like oh this would be interesting but we like biographical things and yeah like the what was the thing about him like his son was like I know for a fact that he like trained the Mujahideen in Afghanistan huh right like that was an bin Laden I feel like or bin Laden didn't he say that in the doc though do we say that I feel like I feel like maybe we didn't include that because it was like too confusing to people or something but here's what like we would have loved to do is like when you're dealing with these guys joe quaire is a highly decorated seemingly special forces intelligence operator operative who is in a

world that like is extremely opaque were like not connected with any you know like big news thing talking to people that knew him besides his son was so difficult. So it's just like it's, you know, people who worked with him. We tried to reach out through the small network of like special forces guys on like Facebook and stuff like that. It's just nobody would talk, you know. And it's like there's a code of silence, which I can understand, I guess. But it just makes it so hard, you know, it's intentionally hard to get to the bottom of people like that. Right.

What we showed was that, like, he lied to the FBI. The FBI had ample evidence to know that he was lying to them, and nobody called themselves out on it or investigated further. And everybody was just, like, doing a kind of omarited thing around whatever Joe wanted to be out there. And you see that in the, I think you see that in the Martinsburg police files, right? Because they're like, didn't somebody meet with him? Or maybe it was Anne. Somebody met with them and was like, oh, he's just like, he's just like, he's just. a fruitcake.

Like, they're meeting him at his office in the Pentagon or near the Pentagon. Yeah. And they're just like, oh, this guy's just a fruitcake. And it's like, okay, but you're sitting in, you know, he's like, he's a special forces. Intelligence operative. If he's presenting himself as a fruitcake, there's a reason. Maybe, yeah, this is a part of a deliberate sort of character that he's taken on. You're not meeting him in a mental institution.

You're not meeting him at a McDonald's. You're meeting him at the Pentagon. We're in his office in a military facility. So I'm curious. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because you need to rebrand your crotch. That's right. You need a full rebrand under your dong, and you're going to do it with Blue Chew.

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Based on the research you've done on this case, because I imagine this case, is not unlike other cases where people, you know, mysteriously, you know, die under some sort of strange circumstance. I wonder if you had to, without, you know, saying a specific suspect in particular, but like, how would this kind of thing work in general, right? Like, there's a guy that is getting close to uncovering, you know, some type of web or a network or some type of consolidation of power that he should not be getting into. Or maybe there's a witness in a case. That guy needs to go. So then a call gets made to some type of, like, hitman. for hire that kind of operates

in the fringes of, you know, society or is done from a centralized level. I don't know if we can, I have no idea. Like, if you had to speculate, I guess, like, is it like they work? Like, I guess I'm wondering how many levels of a guy. There's a guy named Don Bowles, B-O-L-L-E-S. And he was a investigative reporter

in Phoenix, Arizona, I believe. And in like 1972, to, you know, he was investigating some, like, mobbed up, like, land deal, shady, fraudy land thing. And his car got blown up. You know, he got in the car to start the car. Boom. He's dead.

So, like, you know, that kind of stuff happens. Or, like, you know, in that book, the last investigation by Gaten Fonzie, there's like all of those like JFK adjacent, you know, knowledgeable people who like mysteriously die. Right. I think it's interesting when people say, do you know the kind of cliche almost where people these days some like pissed off husband or wife hires a hitman to kill their spouse to get money or get a divorce or whatever. avoid getting divorce, I guess. And then they end up hiring like a informant or a Fed or something like that.

Then they inform her and she cries on TV and she's like, oh my God, she died, no way. And like they'll take her to prison. I saw that one specifically. Okay. So the thing that you always see afterwards is somebody in law enforcement says, oh, well, there's actually no such thing as a hitman. Have you noticed that? They're like, there's like, there's nobody who actually. if you try to hire somebody who's like a hitman,

it's like a figure of our imaginations collectively. The Richard Linklater movie says that about the movie Hitman. Yeah, like there's actually no such thing as a hitman. Right. But it's like, okay, well, if you look at any of the mob stories, right, it's like, yeah, those guys aren't just hitman. Yeah. But there are people that you pay and they kill someone.

They also have like loan sharking going on. You know, it's just like this sort of idea that you in America, I mean, I don't want to like, Ghost Dog was based on a true story, right? I don't want to like harp on this too much or invite imitators. But it's like this idea that you just can't like hire a person to eliminate somebody else in America is like a weird myth. I mean, this is kind of like outside of whatever we're talking about. I just find that a very strange concept. It is a job.

It is a job. It is a side hustle. Maybe it's not every day. Have you seen... Not 95? The website hire a hitman.com? This is like a... Would you mind Google in this kid?

You can just... You don't necessarily do.com. But there was like a whole thing where like... I think someone made it as a joke and then it became basically like kind of like a large net for people like trying to kill people. And like... But then it became a federal... I assume. Yeah.

Then like the feds are like, oh yeah. Came like a hot. It's like a honeypot or whatever. Rent a hitman. It was like a satirical website then became like an actual website where... But this is one of these things. Some people were trying. They say, like, oh, yeah, this is just, like, further proof that, like, there is no such thing.

Yeah. It's like, okay. Well, there's clearly a market for it. You read, like, the last mafioso, or you read any of those, like, those mob books and, like, people are getting hired all the time to kill other people. So I guess I'm— Tragic. I'm curious, like, how many layers, like, does the cover up need to be? Because I hear these things all the time where, like, again, I was telling Zach before, like, I'm—my mom was a conspiracy theorist.

And she would always tell me conspiracies, and I'm like, okay, but this person's in on it? And she's like, yes. And I'm like, and this person, she's like, yes. And I'm like, okay, so everyone's in on it. And as soon as everyone's in on it, then I don't believe it. You know what I mean? And so, like, the coroner says, oh, this is obviously a suicide in the case of Danny. And then the second corner says it's suicide.

So is it possible that a hit can be done so effectively that the coroner is like, yeah, it's a suicide or is the corner in on it? So I might struggle with this and feel free any of you, any either of you to like chime in. Gabe, you can chime in too. Yeah. Yeah, everybody. But like, all right. So it's like a, you know, there are, you can only test for certain things like, forced entry, fingerprints, footprints, you know, and then there are like a series of like,

you know, how do you do it? Do you do it with like you inject someone where they have a heart attack or do you hold the gun in front of their head or do you hang them and make it or however you do it right? You talk about with a suicide made to look like a murder made to look like a suicide. I assume that's what we're talking about. Yes, exactly.

When people suicide themselves. Yeah, so basically you just have to like get in and get out without leaving a trace. Right. Hard, but not impossible. You wear booties, gloves. I don't know, whatever, you use some sort of like way to inoculate the, or you know, maybe if they're already wasted, like that helps. or, you know, maybe you could, like, blow some sort of, like, powders, like scopolamine or something on their face so they become disoriented, you know.

Yeah. I don't know, but I assume you could do it because it does. I think something that we found interesting was that, you know, with medical examines, it's, there are murders that are made to look like a suicide. And there are times where they get caught. Right. But it's exceedingly rare that it happens successfully. And what we found was, like, talking to a few people in the medical examination world is, like, their level of certainty that it's not, that some of these cases like, Dany's is, like, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, how many times have you really dealt with something that's, that's such an outlier case? It's so rare.

How would you even know? You know, it's very confusing. Right. And I guess in Danny's case, I mean, he cut both of his wrists to the ligaments, like in both arms. Like, well, he cut it to the ligament in one arm. Okay. We don't know fully how deep it went on the other arm because, I mean, the records just, unfortunately, were not detailed enough. So that's, like, pretty annoying, right?

It's like, it's also like, certain point, we need, you know, if you're doing the autopsy, you need to put the details in there. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you would think. And they're very pertinent details. And in Danny's case, forced entry is not really seen necessarily. The bolt lock was not locked. Right. Right.

So there's no, yeah, there's no. And then no sign of struggle inside the hotel. But that means if somebody had a key. Right. Yeah, but they even, like, I mean, credit to the Martinsburg police, they put cops up on the roof to look for footprints to see somebody like repelled in. And? No, they didn't find any. Fascinating. Now, I'm curious, in the research you guys did, because I mean, it's like, how long was it eight-year project, something like that? 10 to 12 for Gersh, yeah.

I mean, it's like a remarkable amount of time to spend on one specific story. And at this point, you've gone to deep. webs of every single little part of this octopus. Were there any parts of the investigation that you personally felt threatened or you felt like, oh, this is getting, I'm a little in over my head. Maybe I just chill for a little. Just like early on when I was on my, like, just like totally on my own. I mean, you can kind of tell in that early footage of me that I was like whacked out.

I was taking a bunch of Adderall to do all this research and, like, I was paranoid. But I don't think that it was, like, really totally justified. There was one point where I was, like, kind of researching the origin of promise. It's like this software. It's like this thing called Main Corps, which was, like, this early kind of, like, domestic spying operation that, I don't know what department was really right. running it, but it was like being run out of like FEMA. And in the 70s, it came out in those like post Watergate invest hearings. And basically there was the Senator Tui, Tuni, Senator Tuni, who was like clearly very knowledgeable about or had information about Maine Corps. And he was interviewing, I had transcripts of him interviewing in the 70s, these like generals from, you know, the or whatever navy admirals and army generals and air force generals about this like military

domestic spying operation and their use of this like computerized software or this computer system called main corps and so i i was like well you know he's asking these guys and they're like i don't know i don't know anything like i don't know what you're talking about and they're like denying knowledge of it, but he like, you can just tell by his questioning that he's been briefed by somebody about this. So it's like, I called him one day to, you know, he was like old, you know, living out in, you know, Idaho or Wyoming or somewhere. And, you know, he was basically like, yeah, I mean, we had inside sources like that were telling us about it. The weird thing was, like the call was like making these crazy noises and like scratchy and like um it was just weird

it was just like a weird sound happening over the line that you know doesn't usually happen i was i was recording it it's like almost an unusable um audio clip because there was so much weird like feedback and stuff happening um but you know he was like out in wyoming i don't know if it was a landline or whatever or if it was a cell phone um but or if like he was like you know they put two and two together like don't talk to the the guy you know don't talk to the guy that's looking into the or origin of like domestic spying computer domestic computer spying or whatever in the in the united states i don't know but he was basically like wouldn't tell me who his sources were, and that was a wrap on that.

Like, that was like, that was the last we talked. I assume he's probably dead by now. I should have pushed it harder, but. But no weird phone calls at 3 a.m. With just radio in the background. No. I mean, the story's so old. Like, who's, like, I think.

Who's manning the Danny Castle at a desk? Yeah. Right. Oh, oh, oh, I know. So I had this source out in Arizona, who's an investigator, fascinating. fascinating dude and he's

got like physical archives I mean he's been doing deep political research for probably 40 years and he's almost like a clearing house yeah for you're like I want to look more into like the China Lake thing

yeah he's like okay I've got some files on that and then he has a copy machine he's old school and and so he'll you know copy his original files on whatever you want and he'll mail them to you and he'll be like, just keep checking your mailbox because I'm just going to keep sending stuff and as I find it, I'm going to keep sending it. And so basic, and he actually investigated that Don Bowles case in Arizona.

Basically, like, I got my first, you know, packet from him. It's like a normal letter, but stuffed with files. and it's like sliced open on the top. And I was like, like weird. Like this is and like did anything, how was everything still in here? Like who, why is, I don't know. Took the files like.

How is it possible for it to go from Arizona to here? And so then like I, but I didn't like know what to think about it. Like did he use like a really old envelope and it just kind of in the travel like it? Or like a neighbor like. found it, thought that was theirs or something like that. Yeah. So then like three or four more letters arrived and they were all sliced open and I called him. I was like, what is going on here? Your mail is open. Are you sending it to me open and just hoping the papers don't fall out?

Like what's going on here? And he's like, oh, I have a mail cover. And I'm like, oh, what? He's a mail cover. I've had it for years. And I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, oh, somebody, you know, opens all my mail and reads it and puts it back in there. Wow. I didn't not know those in job. Yeah, right. Some guy's job is just mail cover. Right. So the, well, that was like an old CIA thing. Yeah. Engleton would have all the money that like somebody's still. I mean, they're still aged together. Somebody's still working the Donble or not Donbo's a Devereux. Devereux. The Devereaux. The Devereaux desk. But like that old conspiracy, or not even old, it's kind of a new conspiracy, like my FBI agent, like the designated FBI agent, like, watches your webcam to like you're up to.

Yeah. Kind of real in that regard as far as mail cover. You know what I mean? Like there's a dude that's designated just for like this one guy. I don't know if it's a dude or what. Yeah, let's not. Somebody with a knife. Yeah.

A human. A woman probably do way better at that job. You know what I mean? Just like going through snooping. I won't speculate. That's fascinating. Yeah. Did that like freak you out a little?

Like, all right, these guys are tracking my address. Yeah, it freaked me out. And then it was just like during the pandemic, our office, it was like, you know, city was kind of desolate. The office was up on 27th Street near FIT and like, just like I would walk home at night. And we'd have super late nights of the office. I'd be walking home like three in the morning.

And, you know, it's just like been reading about this like eerie, scary, murdery stuff all day. And then like, it's just a weird vibe. No, I get it. Walking home at night. Like, well, and people are, and not to harp on this too much, but like when you are talking to these people who knew Danny's source. or people who knew, yeah, people in the octopus world,

constantly people were telling us, this is dangerous, be careful, you need to watch out. People were saying that, too. Yeah, yeah, be careful is the funniest thing to tell someone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, oh, thanks for reminding me, I don't want to live. Oh, but now I do, because I guess you just, like, you got to say it because you want them.

It's an instinct, yeah. Yeah, fly safe is the same thing. Right, right, right, right. Safe travels. Safe troubles. But he, yeah, so like, there was a guy who told Christian, like, oh, you're looking into Robert Wood Nichols. Like, I knew Robert Wood Nichols. Um, yeah, you're looking into some really bad stuff.

These guys are going to come after you. I'm going to send you a gun. And it was like, and he was like, he was like, he's like, these, these guys, here's the thing. They're not that smarter, okay? All you got to do is point and shoot and it takes care of it. And it's like... I mean, that's practical advice at least. I mean, it's better than be careful.

But he wanted it, he was like, he was like, it's going to be a very specific caliber. And we're like, you know, we're in New York City. We're just like, Christian's like, I don't need a gun. Like, do not send me a gun through the mail. Like, I do not want that. Please don't do that. And he's like, he's like, it's going to be a 10 millimeter. hollowed out.

Halled out with a plutonium tip with like some kind of radioactive material in it that was going to help eliminate these guys. And it's, it's, it's. it's not like we're talking to like this is somebody who we found deep in the archives who knew Robert Nichols and Michael it's like he's a real obscure real in some like we're talking to obviously he's real but he's not like somebody that we found in the you know the yellow pages are online or something right like he's in the files that we had and and he like his certainty that they would come after you and that you needed a plutonium tipped bullet was just like classic octopus, you know. Right. It's either an indication you're talking to like a kind of a kooky dude or you're investigating kooky dudes or both. And neither one is like a great spot to be in.

Yeah. So what ended up happening? Did he send you a gun? No. We never gave him the address. I mean, that is wild. I mean, that would have been enough for me to be like, nah, I'm good.

I tried to meet him. I tried to go meet him. But, you know. He wouldn't, I think that after. He stopped responding. I flew out to California. And literally just waiting around. Like, hey, dude.

I mean, I just doing other things, but, you know, tried to go out to his place in the Bay Area, you know, from SF, but couldn't go to... Who knows? Maybe he died, you know? And then since the doc comes out, and now millions of people have seen it and, like, been on the ride with you guys,

I'm sure more stuff has come out since. Like, more people have reached out and more people have more information. Can you share any of the... that stuff that has come out? I mean, I would say, first thing is, when it came out, I was positive that we were just going to get so many cranks, you know, just reaching out, which we did. I mean, we got some cranks.

There's for sure some cranks. But the amount of people who actually knew people involved with the octopus, who, you know, as you call it, as Danny called it, right, who knew people that were involved with what Danny was investigating was shocking to me mostly they contact Christian because he's the face of the investigation sometimes they would contact me but they would be like hey my dad my granddad my whatever was this person knew this person whatever and and you look into them it's like oh yeah you did know uh or somebody you know all already because of their last name right right gerald bull who's a guy that we don't go into you just see a little footage from like something

He was creating this super gun for Iraq. He was a, what, Canadian originally? Canadian, like, kind of theoretical munitions guy who was a brilliant. Kind of like a real-life mad scientist. Like, he had this vision for ballistic, you know, projectiles where, and his ultimate vision was that if you make a gun, basically, a cannon, big enough, you can shoot capsules into space. It's like in a world in which

everybody's so in the in the like Oppenheimer the rocket age. The sexiness of this, but it's like it's so much more efficient if you could shoot it into space like you wouldn't have to like you know. Right. So instead of the propulsion the propulsion being on board he's like no no let's go

back. Let's go back to that first idea. the Napoleonic age of like cannons, you know, and just get a cannon big enough. You can shoot a satellite into space. You can shoot satellites out of space. You can create, you can shoot across the entire world, a projectile that's much more effective, less traceable, whatever. Like a ballistic missile in space that then retargetes?

It's a missile that doesn't have power. Yeah. It doesn't have power on. It's a bullet. It's a giant bullet shot from an enormous. I mean, if you just look up Supergun. Gerald Bulls, Supergun. He developed these, they tested them, they're amazing.

You know, if you're... Gerald Bull. Not good for humanity, but they're... B-U-L-L. And SuperGun, I think, is one word. Nidine engineer. Right, so look at some of these sketches and then we have video of their tests. I mean, we have footage of them testing them.

And so the mad scientist part of it is like, he has this one thing that he wants to do. He's kind of like clearly... I'm not going to diagnose, but here I go, like, kind of like asperger-y kind of, you know. Yeah, has a fixation. I'm fixated on this thing. And so who's, and so he was working for like DARPA for a while and then he lost his contract with DARPA because that, you know,

nobody was into the cannon thing anymore. And so then he's like, he needs to keep building a bigger and bigger gun. And Saddam Hussein like, hires him. And he's like, all right, I'll work for these guys. Mossad was bombed. Israel was so bummed that he was making a gun that could shoot from Iraq directly into Israel. Yeah, I mean, I get it. And so they...

He been developing in Canada. They killed him. Yeah. Who's that? Like Mossad. He was assassinated in like Antwerp. Yeah, he was in Belgium. What?

So he's assassinated, I think, on the street. That was in his hotel. Okay, let me just have more disinformation out there. Belgium. In his Instagram, or on his Wikipedia real quick? Click on his Instagram. So fucking Gen Z. Yeah, what's his story?

He's live right now? What's his story doing? So, okay, his apartment suffers a non-robbery break-ins. Okay. He's shot five times in the head and back at point-blank range while approaching the door of his apartment in Brussels. He was dead on the scene. Whoa. He was shot by a three-man team when he answered the door is what another account says.

His cooperation between Bol and Saddam Hussein was felt to be an immediate threat by Israel, which had engaged in previous military engagements in Iraq, in Iraq during the Arab-Israeli war. So Danny Casillera was interested in this guy, obviously, because he's part of the, and sort of like military industrial. So he dies March, he dies, I think, in 1990, like a few months before Danny's investigation started. So it's interesting already, the crazy thing we don't even go into the show is that Doc Nichols, who is part of, we haven't even talked about this,

I realize, but if you've seen the show. The Cabazon, the guy who was like the white dude out of Cabazon, who was intelligent. C-D-C-A guy, yeah. He had gone to Gerald Bulls facility in Canada trying to buy it, right?

Right. Yes. They wanted to buy it, and the sale got blocked, I think. Yeah. So it relates directly to our story about the Octavis. You've got this like mad science yet another mad scientist arms dealer or arms creator researcher

who's somehow tied in with Danny's investigation. Right. But also you have Michael telling Danny that he and Bull know each other and worked on projects together, you know. Sure. Yeah. So then bringing this back to your question after the show comes out, Christian got a message from his granddaughter. Wow.

Yeah. It's just an example. Like a lot of kind of people like that came out. And what is her interest in reaching out to? She wanted to talk to Michael, Rikhanushito. And so I introduced them. And was she like forthcoming with documents from her grandfather? She just kind of wanted answers about, you know, she just has questions about who her grandfather really was and what he was up to

and trying to find people that knew them and stuff like that. What we found is that there's a fascinating story, kind of large community, it's not a community, but it's a large group of people who are all united by relatives who died in very strange circumstances related to what Danny was investigating. It's like a fraternity. And they're all, it's like a fraternity sorority. They're all kind of,

a lot of them are aware of each other, a lot of them know each other. And the only connection is that they had some relative who died in a really weird way. or was up to some really weird business from this same era. And they're all like, they just want to know more. And your investigation is ultimately like the nucleus of all of this. Yeah, Danny's investigation, which became our investigation. Going all the way back to, you know, the 60s probably, even before then.

Of all these people that have sort of mysterious circumstances around their family, both in their operations but also their death, that are now looking to you guys being like, all right, well, tell me everything you found. Mm-hmm. Whoa. And I'm sure this is just one example. I'm sure there's tons. And I think they feel like kind of validated because they're like, oh, I wish I, you know, I tell people about my family and it sounds crazy.

But like your show came out and showed that like this stuff was happening and talk about kind of thing, which is like, it's nice. Right. So, I mean, do you guys kind of block it the idea? Like, you know, like Danny, you know, Castellaro is he's gone and no one's manning his desk. But like these things don't go away, right? Like these types of operations and sort of like the way money and power. and crime sort of circumpopulate around each other. It just sort of changes shape.

So I'm curious. I mean, it's like, it has, like, have things changed or do we know less? Okay. So like in the 80s, when all this Iran-Contra stuff was going on, there was a team of investigative journalists that worked at the Wichita, Kansas paper, you know, and like some weird thing happens in their airfield and they're over, they're on it and they're like figuring it out and networking

and it just used as an example of like all over the country there were these newspapers that had investigators investigating shit. Boring shit sometimes or whatever stuff just looking digging, churning things up and publishing what they find. Now it's like you have like none of that

nothing you have like this is all this left you've got like Two knuckleheads. Yeah, and like New York Times and, you know, blogs and papers, but you can only, you can't just like, it was like this churning of information that was just like kind of coming out. And we look back into stories in the 80s and 70s and the 90s and like there's like this you can like rich amount of information that you can kind of, you know, look into people and look into operations and look into things that happened. and so we have a pretty good sense of kind of like, and like what this Reagan era, like what they were up to.

And now it's like, and they were particularly hawkish. Like they were particularly like, and the Cold War was going on. So, and then now we have like. And now everything's, well, number one, electronic. Electronic. Which is way less sexy than going out to airfields

and like finding caches of weapons and like characters like Eugene Hassanfusser's like. Yeah, Barry Seal. and all those guys. And then it's like, yeah, what is going on now? It's so buried. I don't know. I would just, like, feel bad for anybody

who's actually trying to investigate this stuff because it's just... I'm surprised that that's the case. I would figure it's almost the exact opposite. But, like, as information is almost, like, kind of democratized and there's more stuff out there and you can track people's digital footprint that there would be more info.

But who's paying for the tracking? Right. Yeah, I mean, I guess you need... Who's devoting the resources? I don't know. I even think, like, like, the Epstein case. was largely blown open by like kind of small print journalists in Miami that were like was it was it like fully blown open I guess the investigation starts there and then starts getting picked up by larger

conglomerates but that's only one example I can think of and I'm I don't want to say that like nothing's being investigator or whatever I'm not saying that I'm and I'm saying like yeah there are specific stories that are being investigated but I'm saying this like because our thing has all these tentacles and it's like a bank literally like a banker in baltimore named robert maxwell different robert maxwell like got his like bank taken over by this like shady group that turned out to be an intelligence organization and like totally like cut him out of his whole thing and he finds out that he's bankrolling some extremely shady arms deals you know it's just like so i found that in the baltimore sun and it's like i realize that oh that's like that's this robert maxwell and

Danny's notes and it's connected to this and and and and Oliver North or what you know whatever like just this kind of like general uh culture of like investigation is that Robert Maxwell or Robert Maxwell I would I haven't even tell you about this case uh you know but yeah baltabraaking news I don't know what we're talking about anymore um yeah whatever you know it's just better to like just have like people also right like for me like you know, I don't, you, you want to know who's telling you this stuff. And if it's a newspaper, it's actually printed, you're kind of like, they're sticking their neck out behind it. They could get sued or whatever.

If it's just some shit you see online, it's just easier to, like, take in the information and use it as valuable data if it's been, like, actually published rather than on, like, a message board or something. But that is being a little snobbish, but it seems like it's more time consuming to, like, go through information you find out a message board, who's posting it, what's it mean? but then it's like, oh, it's Time Magazine. It's on, you know, and then you're like, oh, that's literally an apparatus at certain era. I don't even remember what the question was. Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm like, oh, what's happening now? Like, these things don't change. You know what I mean?

I've specialized in the 80s and 90s. Has the promised software changed? Like, does it still exist in some capacity? Well, just to add a little conspiracy grits to the middle. where we started when we were talking about Robert Maxwell is that his daughter, and I'm not saying that this is promise, but this is one of the funny sort of allegations. His other daughter, Nackelin, runs a company that sells a software called Chilliad, C-H-I-L-E-A-D, I think, that's strikingly similar to promise, which is just, and it's like, it's sold the government to stuff like that. It's just like a funny thing if it was like, yeah, we got basically got one business in this family. And that's repackaging promise.

You know, like, that's how we make our money. But Google a Vax VMS 11780 on here. Google a V-AX, VMS. The computer that ran promise. V-A-X-V-M-S. 11-780. Is this the price of a room? Not quite

It's hit images Yeah So that's what you're Hell yeah Does promise still exist I think they came up with something a little Well this is my question right Like or AI

I don't think it still exists literally But like it just is repackaged and change You know what I mean like I just assume all these like government ops from the 80s If there's any modicum of success That they don't go away They just sort of re- Well it's just like became extremely clear

Like the Stellar Wind stuff and the Snowden allegation, or revelations, all these companies have just, if Promise was doing what people said it was doing, they're doing it obviously so much better and more efficiently now. My idea was that like promise, so it's basically like,

I mean, I was already working on this story when the Snowden Revelations came out. I've been working on it for about a year or two. And I was like, oh, that's how I'll package this story because it's like the new Snowden. It's all of a sudden like Snowden Revelations. The coalitions drop and it's like, the government's spying on everybody and Verizon's involved and everything you've ever texted, everybody knows. And it's like, okay, so this is happening, right?

We all now know that it's happening for sure. But when did it start? You know, and like that's like that it didn't come out in that tranche of a file that Snowden smuggled. And so I was like thinking maybe this is like the, you know, the origin of this. I mean, certainly like the right time period because you can't trace a computer, you know, data spying too much further back before the era of computers. Right. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

I'm curious about like Pegasus software. Isn't that sort of doing a similar job, right? Yeah. Which I think they got like Bezos's phone doing that. Like, if I'm not mistaken, I think like it was Pegasus software from like a fishing link that basically gave, was it? Saudis, I think, like full access to, like, his personal cell phone. Yeah. If I'm not mistaken.

And then I'm sure this ties up. It's, like, used by all kinds of people to obviously spy on journalists who are looking into whatever government they happen to be looking into. Right. Just, it's pretty ugly world. So then given everything from this, what is a follow-up or like a spin-off series that you had mentioned before, like, what would that look like? Do you think it would follow us kind of a similar track?

Is it completely deviated? I'll say that it's sort of a prequel as it stands now in the research phase. But, you know, we don't talk about stuff that we're still doing. You know, talk about it when it comes out. That makes sense. I hope this is less dangerous. Dude, I don't know. I read about the stuff you guys are doing.

I'm like, I don't, this freaks me out. I think this new one is a little bit more hardcore, actually. Really? Yeah. But it's even earlier. So it's hopefully people are even deader. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that sounds nice.

But not too dead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, dead that's... Source-wise. That's always nice. I like to do conspiracies when people are done. You know what I mean? Like, when people are out of here, it's like, all right, we'll get into this.

We'll get into M.K. Oldtray. You know, these people are gone. You know, I mean, that doesn't matter. Right. But he's not even, he's not even a goat farmer anymore. He's dead. Well, he was, um, suicided. Gottlieb?

Yeah, assisted suicided. His kids did it. Oh, true. No way. Oh, no. Was that Jolly or Sydney? Jolly West. That was Jolly West's son did it.

Really? Wait, I didn't really. Jolly West's son is the one that killed him. Or was it Gottlie? No, no. I think it was Jolly West's son. I mean, the speculation podcast,

unless I'm testing our knowledge, our memories, right? Gives us to Google anything. No, but I think it, no, because this is something Tom, this is something Tom brought up because his son admitted. Tom O'Neill.

After the Statue of Limitations. And remember, his son was like, after like 20 years or whatever is the statute of limitations in wherever they were and he was like I helped my dad my dad was in a bad state he had some sort of degenerative disease

I want to I'm going five bucks it was Gottlieb all right I'm going to go Jolly West five dollars money on the table might be both I'm gonna go Jolly West I feel like it's there's who killed Sydney Gottlieb

because I'm right yeah Sydney Gatley do that one first damn you're just going to be GOTT L Yeah, write the I-E-B Okay, died in 1999

Mm-hmm Died on Nah, dude Go to his Wikipedia We're gonna get to the bottom of it Type suicide Leading the witness We're

I've never wanted to bet Against Zach, by the way We're never going to get Another project out of the ground If we're sitting over here being wrong about... Let's find out. Here we go.

He died his home in Virginia. He was reported to have a history of heart problems, but his wife declined to give a cause of death. Whatever. Well, whatever. We can be...

Well, no, let's get Jolly West. Let's get Jolly West. Let's do Jolly West. We can edit this out later. Yeah, the death of Jolly West. Go to his Wikipedia. Jolly West assisted suicide. Yeah, Jolly West.

I wore hands with my thought. All right. All right. Death. His family said It was metastatic. There you go. You were right.

Wow. Damn it. Do you have the cash now or do I have the way to have it? I do have it. I do have it. That is wild, dude. Using prescription medication. It doesn't rule out Sidney Galley, but I would just say the public story.

Yes. I get all these guys. Is it okay if it's in ones? Yeah, that's fine. Oh, hell yeah, dude. You carry ones around? What a dog. Unfortunately, that's all we got.

What a dog, dude. I mean, that's wild. I mean, it's like, it wasn't even assisted suicide. It was just prescription meds. He just gave him some perk 30s and just said, yeah, right off. I think that he admits in his thing that it was quite literally an assistant suicide, that he was the one who procured his father or created his father. Sure, but when you think assisted suicide, do you think like,

isn't like a needle jab. They're using some type of like chemical agent that's designed to kill you in some type of way. This, he just said an illegal, like after the statute of limitations, I do know, I just I know about it, but not the, I got the guy. guy confused, after the statute of limitations went up, he could no longer be charged for it, he wrote a memoir about his father and about, you know, helping him die. I mean, that's kind of ironic, you know. Jolly West, you know, helped to come up.

I love using drugs to people have horrible experiences. Yeah, right? Like, you get Jack Ruby out of here, you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, it's kind of funny, right? A little, I mean, RIP. But still, I mean, the idea that, you know, he's using drugs to get people out of here and all of a sudden he has drugs and gets him out here.

Yeah. Perfect balance in the universe. Yeah. Well, gentlemen. I just like to do it. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Yeah, this is fun.

I'm excited to see what you guys do next. And yeah, I'm eagerly awaiting. I feel like it'll be on Netflix, is my assumption. But who knows? Who knows? Maybe it would be on some to be dreamed of streaming platform. Yeah. That we...

Dreamdove? Yeah. It has 2B in the name. I like that. Oh, 2B. It'll be on 2B. Yeah. fault. I can't wait. Well, I will see you guys there and everyone will be tuning in. I appreciate

y'all and look forward to doing this again. Thanks for having us. Thanks so much. What's up, people? Quick announcement. If you are a fan of Camp Gagnon or Religion Camp, I have great news because we're dropping history camp. That's right. This is the channel we're going to be exploring the most interesting, fascinating, controversial topics from all time throughout all history, right? You probably know about Benjamin Franklin, uh, I don't know, Thomas Jefferson, Nicola Tesla. Interesting figures from history. And you probably learned about a school and they were pretty boring, but not here. No. As you know, I was raised by a conspiracy theory, so I'm going to be diving deep into all of the interesting, strange, occult, and secretive societal relationships that all of these famous influential men from our shared past have.

So if you're interested, please go ahead and subscribe to the YouTube channel. It will be pinned in the description as well as the comments. And if you're on Spotify, this doesn't really apply to you, but these episodes will be dropping as well. Just go ahead and give us a high rating because it really helps the show.